Fiona Hill on Deindustrialization, Despair and Demagoguery

[@captainvonkleist8323]

Education isn't a magic bullet for economic opportunity. When debt is attached to education, it really can backfire, in a big way. Soaring private education costs, and the debt associated with it, has really changed the equation over the last 40 years or so. There's plenty of decent jobs for people without higher education, but the thing most people are missing is social skills. Think of someone like a used car dealer, or retail manager. Considering there's no debt load, these can actually be quite lucrative jobs. The problem is that these jobs are the ones in which people are most likely to be discriminated against. It's tough to get a read on someone's social skills at first glance, and there's no certification for the service sector. So, you're left at the mercy of the assumptions of the hiring manager. AND the preconceptions of the customers. Which can be problematic.

[@roc7880]

cheaper or affordable education is the sign of a decent society. you are right that social skills are missing, but how can you teach them in school is a different thing that was not solved since Socrates. Expanding community colleges is a good solution, for both employers and employees.

[@captainvonkleist8323]

@@roc7880 I have Asperger's Syndrome, and I also work in those service sector jobs that require social skills. AND I outperform my peers when it comes to sales results, and managing staff morale. Which is quite a trick! Men with Asperger's don't typically end up in social skills jobs. I'm able to, in part because I got myself a psychological education, and I was able to instrumentalize that education in a professional setting. Also because my life experiences forced me to learn some things that I really wasn't a natural at. This is why I advocate for teaching psychology as part of a high school curriculum. Also, the reason why I advocate for things like relationship coaching, because that's one venue where those social skills are honed. (Such as communication, tolerance, and compromise.)

[@roc7880]

@@captainvonkleist8323 I really need myself those skills to be honest. this is why I said it depends on how you teach, because I read many books in psychology, which did not help me a lot in dealing with people.

[@kangaroo1888]

Great lecture - Thanks .

[@Kevin-Schmevin]

Another great interview from Mark

[@denisemorton56]

Good conversation

[@ryerye9019]

Economists should avoid American culture war issues if they want people to take them seriously. It's one thing to Russia-gate, it's another thing to analyze the ROI or purchasing power of foreign donations into the American political system.

[@captainvonkleist8323]

I disagree. I think Economists should understand the culture war issues if they want people to take them seriously. Take a look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Ask yourself how high on the economic ladder you need to be to have overcome most of the basic ones. This stuff can be studied scientifically, and the connections can be drawn. The predominant needs that are motivating working class people are family, sex and social status. Healthcare is the one real need that's lacking - and even that's available, you'll just have a bunch of debt dumped on your head if you get it. That's not to say I don't favor universal healthcare, it would help. Working class issues are driven by the disintegration of family, the complete dumpster fire of a dating market, and bigotry against poor people, especially working class men, and working class black men even more so. I think it makes sense to move beyond the memes, and take these issues more seriously. Yeah, abortion is an issue, do you really understand why, though? Or do you think the patriarchy puppet masters are trying to control women because they're meanies? On that issue, I'll say that the left lost that battle when they went sex negative. There are sex positive ways to handle reproductive issues, but I don't hear those answers from the left. I would advocate for relationship coaching, an understanding of heterosexual psychology (yeah, I know it's a heteronormative society, but it's also a society built on sex myths). Obviously I'd continue to advocate for contraception, but I think that's been done thoroughly enough. Give up on one night stands/fuckfest liberal attitudes towards dating, because it's inhuman and putrid, and it just doesn't work. The majority of people find that stuff pretty offensive. It really isn't what people want out of sex. If you can't date in your own community, maybe examine if your attitude towards torching your relationships is the actual problem. Obama changed the law in 2010 so now women need to get consent for sexual conduct in the workplace. You think women have caught onto this yet? Because, I don't think they get it, maybe sexual harassment training should be done in a more egalitarian manner. American women seem to be allergic to getting consent for, well, really anything to do with a relationship. That's, apparently, still the man's job. Personally I think male abortion would clean up some of the dating market issues (I prefer the term consensual fatherhood). No fault divorce needs to go, there should be guardrails on at least the first 10 years of marriage (consensual divorce - notice the pattern of consent issues). You think the economy is driving family formation issues? Well, maybe cut some of the ties between family formation and the economy and see if that helps any. It really doesn't have to be an economic issue if you don't want it to be. Those links were created by law, and they can be severed by law. It's true that for women we have one of the safest dating markets in the world. For heterosexual men, it's one of the most economically perilous dating markets in the world. The sexual revolution only happened for non heterosexual men. The result is a modern version of medieval first night rights, except instead of a king, it's men with money. It's a complete dumpster fire, that in practice works for neither working class men nor working class women. This generation is abstaining because it's so abusive. Congrats on that, boomer feminists, your social policies are so bigoted and poisonous you've managed to recreate Weimar Germany. So much for free love! Unfortunately the left got highjacked by sex negative, conservative white women. Yes, I'm talking about metoo and the Trump years. And, if you still don't get it after that debacle, I really don't know what to do with you.

[@captainvonkleist8323]

@hognoxious Did you get any of it? I can't tell, your offensive, dismissive comment really just seems ignorant and useless. Do you know how to advance the debate at all? Or do you just not know how to converse with human beings?

[@vivalaleta]

Why when these issues directly effect the economy?

[@commanderosis435]

Considering Russia gate was all a lie she helped perpetuate with Igor Danchenko at the Brookings institute I don't know why anyone would take the charlatan seriously

[@roc7880]

if only you could. in fact, I think that economists like their purist models ignoring the way real people think when they make decisions. so culture wars are a major economic issue, if only it would be analyzed without preconceptions.

[@jackbeagle8458]

Hope isn’t a strategy.

[@richardscathouse]

So many never learn that. Mostly women. I blame Disney 😢

[@davidwilkie9551]

Going through the fires of political perceptions and coming out with intact innocent ethics is a personal achievement, but what changes?

[@athenakoios]

I see only two ways out - Zelenski resigns. Putin declares a win, we skip for a awhile Third World War . Second option , Ukraine recognise Crimea , Luhansk and Donbas est.. again Putin declares a win we postpone Third World War . How did we end up here?

[@scottyfive4319]

We ended up here because Putin was allowed to move on Crimea. This is just the start, Putin will move on other countries eventually the West will have to do something physical. We can hope this will not happen but I cannot see how it will not unless the Ukraine is given HUGE resources to continue the fight, Oh yes and China does not help Russia.

[@aprescoup]

@@scottyfive4319 Nonsense. America's rightwing regimes constantly fleece the US taxpayers by taking them into violent rightwing regimes-supporting interventions in the name of National Security. Smedley Butler had a name for such sociopaths: "Gangsters of Capitalism". Why cannot Putin have legitimate National Security concerns, not half way across the world but on his own nation's border with Waffen-SS glorifying nationalist and ethnically supremacist Bandersastan?

[@scottyfive4319]

@@aprescoup Well what is the outcome of his actions, the EU as close as they ever have been on every level. NATO re-arming. Sweden and Finland wanting to Join NATO. Germany adding Billions to their military budget and this is just the start. As for the right wing nationalists in the Ukraine, they have been there for decades a natural result of the Ukraine being overrun by both Russia and Poland over the centuries. What is NATO?? Oh yes the result of Russia not going back to it's pre 1939 borders in 1945, a direct opposition to Russian aggression, Oh yes just what they are doing now???? Countries join NATO by choice, they are not incorporated by violence like the neighbours that Russia has. Is the USA guilty of interference in other countries yes of course it is but unlike Russia it does not attack the civilian population the way Russia has done in the countries it has attacked.

[@aprescoup]

@@scottyfive4319 Sweden and Finland might as well already be in NATO given the slew of side agreements they have with the EU. Germany will not start a third war against Russia. It will however help the US go eff itself. Good for the EU and an Eurasian Century, if you will, sans the US hegemon. You sound like a freak neocon psychopath. "Oh yes the result of Russia not going back to it's pre 1939 borders in 1945," Now you sound like a proper Nazi "gangster of capitalism". I guess you're really peeved that the world isn't speaking German... "but unlike Russia it does not attack the civilian population the way Russia has done in the countries it has attacked...." Oh really? Belgrade, Baghdad, Ragga, Mosul, Libya, Syria and 400,000 dead Yemenis tell me you're a Waffen-SS glorifying white supremacist psychopath, without any historical awareness , IOW a useful to the ruling elite low information authoritarian-submissive "good German" personality type.

[@Vanderearden]

@@scottyfive4319: So, it's your belief that we ended up here solely because Putin was allowed to move on Crimea? Let's assume you're right. Why and how did Putin move on Crimea? Please be as detailed as possible.

[@VernonNickersonSCHOOLCOACH]

Geographic mobility down. Intrastate licensure in the USA-lack of reciprocity is a barrier to economic growth. Spatial inequality and the creation of local assets. People figuring out how to improve their wellbeing.

[@yordang2818]

One thing to think of.sUSA I'd definitelythe land of opportunity,BUT NOT FOR EVERYONE

[@Pinstripe0451]

People long for economic security primarily, not opportunity. Opportunity is just Sesame Street talk for politicians.

[@catocall7323]

@@Pinstripe0451 Not true for everyone, I know Europeans who have security in their home countries but come here for opportunity.

[@richardscathouse]

Hardly for anyone, 😢

[@richardscathouse]

Russia under Putin is well on the mend. The US and UK, however, are still tumbling into the abyss. Ukraine is merely America's latest victim. 😢

[@Q_QQ_Q]

Whatever it takes .

[@islandsedition]

Pretty sure this was recorded in Feb 2022 not 2021 as in the show notes.

[@krcalder]

Why is it so much cheaper to get things made elsewhere? The early neoclassical economists took the rentiers out of economics. What could possibly go wrong? The interests of the rentiers and capitalists are opposed with free trade. This nearly split the Tory Party in the 19th century over the Repeal of the Corn Laws. The rentiers gains push up the cost of living. The landowners wanted to get a high price for their crops, so they could make more money. The capitalists want a low cost of living as they have to pay that in wages. The capitalists wanted cheap bread, as that was the staple food of the working class, and they would be paying for it through wages. Of course, that’s why it’s so expensive to get anything done in the West. It’s our high cost of living. Disposable income = wages - (taxes + the cost of living) Employees get their money from wages and the employers pay the cost of living through wages, reducing profit. High housing costs have to be paid in wages, reducing profit. The playing field was tilted against the West with free trade due to our high cost of living The early neoclassical economists had removed the rentiers from economics so we didn’t realise. That’s why it’s so much cheaper to get things made elsewhere.

[@roc7880]

the rentiers got beaten after the WW I, but they came back with Reagan in the 80s. the goal of the neocons was not liberating creative forces, but protecting the rentiers.

[@krcalder]

@@roc7880 Economic liberalism yielded unexpected results. Everyone had expected economic liberalism to unleash capitalist dynamism. Instead there was a stampede towards the easy money of “unearned” income. In 1984, for the first time in American history, “unearned” income exceeded “earned” income. The rentiers have never had it so good. Not unexpected when you know what neoclassical economics is trying to hide. They no longer teach the history of economics at universities so there is no real knowledge of “earned” and “unearned” income. It took an old guy, Lewis Lapham, to spot the problem.

[@roc7880]

@@krcalder I also found weird that economics now in college is a pure model of supply and demand, but there are no real examples where those models were tested. there is no historical meat in the economics, just formulas and unicorns.

[@roc7880]

funniest thing in the interview: Mark saying that Putin was the first leader the West liked, but now it is not sure yet. yeah, we still have to wait and see how this thing will pay out, maybe he will play the piano on youtube and get more fans in Poland.

[@BigHenFor]

It's because they saw what they wanted to see, encouraged by plentiful Russian Oil and plenty of Russian money to either launder or buy things with, like consent. The ascendancy of Neoliberalism has been a disaster, because its embedding income inequality. This is a de facto form of apartied, where an overriding two-tier social and economic organization has been created where those with capital feel entitled, emboldened, and essentially virtuous, to claim that those without capital are somehow defective, in need of correction, control, and manipulation. Despite the systemic opportunities given to the former, they only grudgingly and ineffectively do enough to keep them alive, arguing that the market is the salvation for everyone. But as the beneficiaries and controllers of the market, they argue for the effective enslavement of those below them, in the economic hole that they are increasingly trapped in. That is the shared misery in the UK and USA.

[@roc7880]

@@BigHenFor true. we also forget that the first neoliberal blindness was Saudi Arabia. the invasion of Ukraine is the new 911, and Mark still cannot accept the reality.

[@richardscathouse]

What's not to like about Putin,,, sore losers I say 😂

[@richardscathouse]

​@roc7880 Ukraine has yet to be invaded; Crimea, Donbas, Lugansk, and Zapirozia are liberated from the Nazis, unelected fascists, Vladimir Valdmirovich is simply enforcing the Minsk Agreements. 😊

[@pauldi7268]

This d9dnt make me feel more hopeful at all.

[@sandorski56]

Unfortunately, sick people are the perfect customer.

[@denisdaly1708]

There is zero, none, nada research showing that trickle down economics works. This person may know about Putin, but knows little about economics. Mark just gently batted it away. Should have been stronger.

[@whazzat8015]

Trickle down works real well for the folks at the top.

[@direwolf6234]

the only thing that trickles down is the past due bill ..

[@jimbob-robob]

The problem with trickle down is precisely that...it's a trickle down when it needs to be a flood to satisfy the needs of desperate masses...

[@richardscathouse]

Agreed

[@robertbritt6134]

Your comments on licensing point out the obvious failures of a religious belief in a centuries old autocratic federalism. States rights are a ridiculous throwback to antiquity. One nation. Let the aggrieved states secede from the union. Let’s see how Arkansas fairs in a world market.

[@whazzat8015]

Arkansas is Native American for Baja Albania

[@richardscathouse]

Abraham Lincoln. Pretty well put paid to the fantasy of State's Rights during his war of Northern Aggression. The scars are all over America to this very day. 😢

[@direwolf6234]

so these two grew up not very far from each geographically and got out for better lives...

[@jimbob-robob]

Yep, Thatcher only improved things and opportunities for her class and self interest at the expense of the working class, just like Reagan and Clinton...the neo liberal financialisation of everything rot set in with them...

[@Facthunt4599]

About 190 miles Bishop Auckland to Dundee.

[@breft3416]

Movement? I suppose you could move to China. The money did.

[@kikolatulipe]

Hi Marc , are u in love with Fiona? Is she the only expert on Russia/Ukraine ?

[@jimbob-robob]

Julia Ioffe...

[@roc7880]

Mark, I was wondering whether the prophecies made by you 2 weeks about the Russia NOT invading Ukraine are still holding? Plus, I wonder why for you explaining the Russian mindset about Putin, NATO, and USSR is also a justification of the invasion of Ukraine? Would you have also justified the invasion of Poland by Hitler by explaining why do Germans resent the defeat in WW I, and why the German minority in Gdansk feels oppressed by Poland? Is emotional frustration a legal reason to invade another country?

[@jakobsmith4046]

De-industrialization is a great thing when done by those on the left same goes for leaving the EU, the question isnt are these things good or bad the question is are the people in charge at the time good or bad!

[@lutherblissett9070]

what?

[@arnowillekes7979]

Yeah what?!

[@jakobsmith4046]

@@lutherblissett9070 What are you confused about?

[@richardscathouse]

Writing your response on rice paper are ye?

[@richardscathouse]

Too much Western propaganda for my taste

[@simonsmith3504]

I miss the dislike button 👎

[@denisdaly1708]

Why?

[@jimbob-robob]

It never went away here in Australia, just the count total disappeared ages ago...