We Don't Speak "Improper" Japanese

[@ThatJapaneseManYuta]

Learn Japanese with Yuta: bit.ly/3cvN9Vl

[@flygplan1396]

I don't seem to be getting any emails from the course. I haven't gotten any for about 3 or 4 months.

[@brosef9997]

maybe a better way to say "proper" Japanese would be "the kind of Japanese used in written legal documents"

[@ilke6146]

@@flygplan1396 same here

[@lusafael9818]

@@flygplan1396 me too

[@12kenbutsuri]

In Finland, they never teach you spoken finnish at school or on textbooks, which is what everyone uses daily (even at work), even though spoken finnish and written finnish are almost different languages. I think it's much worse than Japanese in that sense. It's really nice that English or most other European languages don't have this problem. Edit: I should have specified schools for foreigners learning Finnish.

[@mavera-5777]

Finnish sounds like such a great language, but super difficult because it doesn't belong to any of the "familiar" Germanic/Romance/Slavic languages. If I wanted to study it, what would you recommend doing? Grammar textbook, Duolingo or other apps, social media...? Sorry for all the questions but it's so rare to meet a Finnish speaker and as a language lover I would really like to know what you suggest!

[@12kenbutsuri]

@@mavera-5777 Definitely, Finnish is probably harder than Japanese if we are only comparing spoken languages (although written Japanese is just madness).

[@12kenbutsuri]

@@mavera-5777 duolingo I think is great for beginners to learn basic sentences, and there are many apps for basic vocabs like 'finnish in a month', but there aren't many intermediate or advanced level materials.

[@12kenbutsuri]

​@@mavera-5777 Ima making my own intermediate level finnish learning game if r interested, I can postit here once its out if u want.

[@mavera-5777]

@@12kenbutsuri That would be great, thank you! I'll try to get to beginner level first, I hope I can do it lol, but an app for intermediate level sounds great 🥺

[@pokyboss4281]

Dogen's video sometimes have skits where he does that typical textbook speech mixed with regular speech and I think they really show how weird the difference sounds.

[@wilsons2882]

hey could you please transliterate the textbook speech in comparison with the regular speech in roman english?

[@prezentoappr1171]

@@wilsons2882 learn kana its easy and then absorb dogen skits

[@lohphat]

I think the justification of teaching more formal forms first is to instill in the learner a "safe" form so that in their course of learning don't make too many social errors. I've encountered the same in learning German, French, and Danish. Learning the formal "Sie", "Vous", and "De" first drives home (interesting idiom BTW) the social expectation of speaking with strangers. However since I've learned German and Danish 40 years ago, Danish has almost eliminated the formal "De" except when speaking to the royal family. "Sie" in German is only used with elderly strangers. Now it's ok to start speaking with a stranger with "du" straight away. It's very odd to my ears. "Vous" is still expected in French between strangers to this day. So I understand the intent of the formality. But as long as we know it's not typical speech then we can be better prepared.

[@ilisan]

"Sie" in German is not only used when talking to the elderly and pretty much used the same as the French "vous". If you are young or a foreigner people will give you the benefit of the doubt and don't interpret it as a statement but using "Du" as a normal adult to strangers or at work will have consequences. This isn't a class thing either, a construction worker will simply have you suffer disrespecting him in a more direct manner than the CEO of a fancy company.

[@adriangrana1239]

I don't think european's formal speech can be compared to the politness level of Japanese. The main point Yuta is making, is that all these pseudo formal expression in text books are unnatural, so why would any learner start with such expressions? It can't really be compared to German in my opinion, if you use "Sie" all the time you only risk sounding too formal nothing more, in Japanese however it's way more complicated than that, some expressions are outright unnatural to the point where even a Prime Minister wouldn't use it, so I don't see how that could be a justification to learn such expressions before learning more common ones that still are formal enough for most situations.

[@lohphat]

Also keep in mind that English is in a minority where the written language and spoken languages are very closely aligned, with the notable exception of legal documents. French has verb forms only used in the written language so you never use them in spoken French. e.g. "Il fût heureux." You learn them to be aware of them as you encounter these strange tenses you never hear. I would never walk into a shop and use "Du" but now I hear strangers say "du" all the time -- it's...awkward. Easy German did an episode on this and there's a clear generational preference.

[@adriangrana1239]

@@lohphat Since German is my mother tounge (and best language I speak) I think I'm quite qualified to discuss this further. Yes "Sie" has some generational (and regional) differences, for example here in Switzerland it would be considered very rude to go in a shop and address the staff there with "du", I would say even in Germany and Austria the go to way to address a stranger would always be "Sie" but it depends on the situation and people. My mainpoint still stands, if you for example have german speaking friends and address them with "Sie" it sounds too formal (and thus weird and akward), but in Japanese some sentence are weird not just because you spoke "a bit too formal" but because you spoke wayyyyy too formal, something not really possible in german unless you start making the sentence longer. Let me give you an example in german to make it clearer: Let's imagine you want to ask a friend for a favor, the correct way would be: "Könntest du mir in Gefallen tun?", the too formal way would be: "Könnten Sie mir ein Gefallen tun?" and the way too formal way (there isn't a set phrase really so I will get creative) is: "Wäre es möglich, dass Sie ein Anliegen für mich erledigen könnten?". Of course in a German text book you would never learn something as ridiculous as in my 3rd sentence, but the thing with Japanese is that it has set phrases with way more formality than it's needed most of the time unlike german where you have to go out of your way to sound this formal, therefore some textbooks try to force learning these weird phrases that practically no one uses, so I don't see way a learner should learn it at the beginning when there are more natural and useful ways to say things both formally and informally.

[@ThatJapaneseManYuta]

I notice that many people conflate politeness with formality. Formal isn't always the same thing as polite. Polite, conversational (not very formal) Japanese is safe to use in most situations as I said in this video. You can use vous and not speak very formally. "Vous êtes fous ou quoi?" is pretty informal lol

[@khalilahd.]

I’m using Genki and I’m finding that they aren’t always correct so this is helpful 🙏🏽

[@butter5144]

Genki teaches you how to speak like a robot 🤣🤣🤣

[@joshdaniels2363]

I'll say it again: I think Genki generally does a pretty good job including most of this stuff in its content. One might quibble with the *order* in which they introduce them (they start with the masu and desu forms before introducing casual speech). But you gotta start somewhere, I guess, and I can see them thinking it's less risky to err on the side of excessive formality (stiff) than excessively informal (rude).

[@meowtherainbowx4163]

Yeah, the only issue is that it can be fallacious to assume that excessive formality is always the best way to err. Also, it has the consequence of making it seem like university students who are friends and considering dating would be speaking in constant keigo. Most importantly, the social consequences of seeming distant and guarded, giving everyone the impression that they’re not truly your friend, can be just as bad as seeming rude. I think textbooks just need to reorganize their priorities to make it easy to avoid obviously being rude and to be casual. Being at Genki Lesson 14 at the time of writing, I want to know more about, say, avoiding directness. That seems to be a very important part of being polite even when speaking casually, based on Yuta’s other videos. These nuances tend to get lost, and maybe they seem a bit much for elementary learners, but I love nerdy details like these, and you have to learn them sooner or later to be meaningfully fluent.

[@butter5144]

I study from minna no nihongo

[@BakuroOfficial]

@@meowtherainbowx4163 currently at lesson 13, how's your study been so far, what do you use to learn the Kanji?

[@UkjACk300]

We used minna no nihongo in our beginner class and I found out that one of our teachers speaks quite informally which we preferred so much more. He wasn't impolite at all, he was just more casual which, as you said, made him more approachable! All our teachers were lovely but I wish we could've had more coversations with them and the problem became obvious when I was trying to converse and a) didn't know how to form a sentence quickly and b) didn't understand conversational Japanese. I understood the vocabulary but was confused about the forms and if they meant something different or not. I think our teachers were already aware of the difference between "textbook" and IRL Japanese but it still seemed difficult for them to decide on the kind of language they want to teach i.e. should we be able to write, take an official test, converse and so on. Japanese seems a lot more confusing now but when I read the conversational (texting) Japanese of the one "casual" teacher, sentences seem so much easier (besides my lack of Kanji knowledge lol!) and, well, natural! I do think that it is a very common problem though with language learning. I am a native German and beginner German also sounds like from a textbook. My English is probably also too formal sometimes, which I only found out after dating native English speakers lol! They said that it was flawless but some vocabulary choices were just "different". In a sense, everyone needs to decide how to learn a language and I think KZbin is always a good way to learn a language more "informally". At least that's what I did with English :D

[@segment1993]

The main issue with Minna no Nihongo for me was that it started with desu-masu kei and introduced futsuu kei in the middle of the first textbook or so. Which is kinda understandable (the first natives who would speak to you probably won't be your friends), but still makes you struggle a bit. Introducing desu-masu kei later not just starting with it would make things much easier. Genki does exactrly that as far as I know.

[@akiyajapan]

Best things for me about your videos: useful and practical without clickbait or sensational topics just to get views, and excellent perspective on the Japanese language. Arigato gozaimasu!

[@sharuban]

Native English speakers in call centers make mistakes with their particularly formal scripts too. I think it's interesting because it shows a total disconnect from the actual communicative function of the formal language and instead is just a simple phrase that they're saying without thinking. I used to call customer service agents several times a day and I heard "With whom do I have the pleasure of speaking with today?" so many times. It wasn't annoying to me, just interesting in what it revealed about the way they used language at work.

[@Rubycon99]

That's such a good example of "proper" language that isn't really useful in a real-world scenario. Imagine if you were learning English and spent a bunch of time nailing when to use "whom" and then found out almost no one actually uses it anyway, even when it's correct to do so.

[@walkerlocker6126]

I remember in 6th grade, we were taught how to write a more formal letter, so say at work or something. We were taught to head it with "To whom it may concern," The number of times this is EVER actually used is almost zero, especially nowadays with email being the more common form of communication. I don't know anyone who has titled a letter that way, though I guess it isn't unheard of, just so formal and unnatural.

[@ribbon_nucleotide]

Being taught only polite forms in a children's Japanese course was very detrimental to my studies because many of the derivative verb forms come from informal forms. It's ideal to study polite and informal Japanese at the same time because you will see or even use both kinds in different situations. When teaching both, good teachers will also go into the social differences and nuances of the language.

[@moose304]

I really appreciate the color coding of the words. Thank you! 👍

[@jaymarksman]

I think the way most textbooks start teaching Japanese (敬語, desu and masu forms) is the way to go, since that's the "safest" option to start with. Firstly, there are very few situations where it would be rude to use it (it might sound unnatural in certain situations, but come on, you're just starting out). You can use it with strangers (asking for directions, ordering at a restaurant etc) as well as co-workers and acquaintances, and if you become good friends, you'll pick up the informal versions of the same expressions quite quickly. Secondly, it's very often used in written language (even in places like Twitter and KZbin comments) as well as in a lot of KZbin videos and podcasts, which makes it easier to jump into immersing in native content early on. If you want to become fluent, at some point you will obviously need to understand the casual way of speaking, as well as the really formal/polite ways that are used in service positions, business situations etc, but trying to cram all of that into your head at the very start is probably really discouraging and needlessly confusing for most people.

[@ThatJapaneseManYuta]

敬語 doesn't always mean formal. People in my interview videos usually use 敬語 but they don't speak formally and that level of formality is acceptable in most conversational situations. Nobody here is arguing that you shouldn't teach 敬語 (which you should as well as タメ語).

[@jaymarksman]

​@@ThatJapaneseManYuta Thank you for the reply! I agree, but I also think that that's where some of the confusion comes in. There's no clear-cut line between formal and informal (even in the video, at 4:07 you say "This is not formal Japanese, but it's not super informal, either"), and there are various levels of politeness on top of that as well. I think a video explaining what formal Japanese actually is, and where it is used (and how politeness factors into it) would be very interesting and informative. The textbook examples in this video were great, but having the context of where the (wrongly used) formal expressions *would* actually be used in real life would make it even better.

[@iprobablyforgotsomething]

"a video explaining what formal Japanese actually is, and where it is used (and how politeness factors into it) would be very interesting and informative... having the context...actually used irl would make it even better". . ^ 100% THIS PLEASE & THANKS! **~**

[@travelingonline9346]

I learnt Japanese in Japan in the 1980s. At the time I was told that hai is stiff and formal and that ee is soft and likeable. Further that women should prefer ee over hai, conversely men would use hai or informally un. A peculiarity of Japanese is the extremely rich variety of expressions or registers to express social relations between the speaker the hearer and the objects they they are talking about and the ideas what is appropriate change over time and even Japanese people have different opinions on it . It is basically impossible to present "perfectly normal" conversations at the N5 or even N4 level because you would have too much to explain. It starts with explaining the difference between watakushi, watashi, ore, boku washi and uchi and ends with explaining why " terebi o haiken shimasu" is completely ridiculous.

[@acudaican]

I'll 拝見 the 御テレビ and there's nothing you can do to stop me.

[@marklee331]

@@acudaican hahaha

[@prezentoappr1171]

@@acudaican polmao

[@Mr_sandalia]

僕は普通な日本語や「ます」と「です」を学ぶの方が便利だと思う。 ゆたさんの言うことように勉強すれば日本人と話してアニメを見て問題がないと思う。 超丁寧な言語を要らないけどちょっと知っていればいい。ちゃんとわかるためにだけ。

[@12kenbutsuri]

While living in japan for 18 years, I never heard anyone use ee once outside of TV.

[@Soulskinner]

But Minna no Nihongo teaches these details. Not detailed way, but they explain that 〜いらしゃいます usually used towards you when you're a client. And this kind of stuff. ^_^ Another thing I've noticed, it looks like JLPT N5 requires polite language. So I think that textbook authors when they decide what to teach their students, they look at JLPT requirements. Another detail is, I would bet that being overly polite is better than being too rude. And that's why they first teach you polite Japanese. Later, Minna teaches colloquial language. Even the fact that various particles may be "dropped" out in casual conversations. And by "Proper" Japanese, I think that people usually mean completely "grammatically correct" correct language. But in general, it's a long topic. Too long to write it here. Heh. Funny thing is I'm more on "immersion" and some other stuff's side, than textbook one. But I kinda like Minna no Nihongo. It has some really good pros. While there are some cons. So it's a bit hard to tell, how good it is. Lol. While I actually dislike Genki. I was thinking about using it. But every time I've started reading it, I rather disliked it.

[@davidribeiro]

Funny you should mention it. I saw that comment on the other video and it rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe because I heard it before when I was learning English and it was a horrible mindset to learn the language. People love to say that there is a "right" way to learn.

[@on_the_off_beat]

In addition to Yuta's argument (focus on what native speakers use most) I personally think one reason not to neglect less formal Japanese as a beginner is that it's simpler and more direct. It's just the natural way to learn the language, to start with what is simple, with what native-speaking kids learn. The fundamental language structure is the simple stuff, and politeness registers are an ornamentation or encrustation on top of it. At least it seems that way to me. I guess the strongest argument for emphasizing the polite stuff is you don't want to sound like a five-year old kid when you are trying to buy a train ticket or speaking with your 先生. But this argument is irrelevant for those of us who are learning at our leisure in other countries, focusing on comprehension rather than output. A lot of the media we consume (TV, anime) uses a lot of plain informal speech. By the time we have to use the language "in the wild" to communicate with native speakers we will long since have figured out how to put desu/masu at the end our sentences.

[@iprobablyforgotsomething]

Agree. It's frustrating that so many 'basic' and 'beginners' language classes aren't actually starting beginners at the actual basics. If in your starter class, you're not talking like a kid talks to their family (as opposed to a samurai addressing first a royal retainer and then the emperor himself), then it's not basic enough. . They should start out making sure we understand sentence structure and word forms in terms of tense, masculine / feminine (if applicable to a language), etc. Before they start adding in formalization and variation. Because I'd rather sound like a rude, simple child and be able to say, in case of an emergency, that I need help or whatever -- and be understood -- than to have drilled into my head, things like... . How to politely notify my boss-sama that a dolphin ate my car keys this morning and thus I humbly request mercy for my inforgivable tardiness at maximum formality-level. . And srsly who wrote some of these textbooks / lang app programs?? Summer was fun, shall we set the kitchen on fire (in standard-formality masculine form or something idek whatever)?

[@iprobablyforgotsomething]

*unforgivable . What an inexcusable phone-typo. Shame on you, Android keyboard auto-incorrect. Shame.

[@metas2945]

My theory is that true spoken Japanese is more difficult to explain and break down in a systematic manner as textbooks like to do. It makes my head spin how so many colloquialisms can run into one another sometimes.

[@evie9329]

この動画は日本語をちゃんと勉強したい人にKZbinの中で一番で役に経つと思います！実は自分も、どうやって教科書で使われている文法じゃなく、本物の日本語を話せばいいか、何年も分かってなかった (笑) I watched a lot of interviews, especially the ones you did, or Japanese videos like let's plays or vlogs. It really helps a lot once you've reached a certain level of Japanese. Also thank you for actually explaining how real Japanese is used and with great examples too 😄

[@uni4548]

*一番役に立つ by the way, your Japanese reaches almost native level. Huge respect

[@evie9329]

@@uni4548 Thank you for correcting me! How did that で get in there, I guess I typed too fast 😅 and thanks a lot for the compliment, I still have a lot to learn though ☺ まだまだですけど、これからも頑張り続けます！

[@XSpImmaLion]

I think it all comes from a few majorly problematic things which I can't really fault book authors for: 1. Trying to make translated sentences still more or less make sense by themselves for foreigners, without omitting words. Like for instance, in everyday life Japanese you'd give a reply to a question with a yes or no omitting most of the context, but that doesn't help much as a lesson, so books will often try to just put everything there literally and forcefully... not that it'd sound natural, but because it crams as many things into a single lesson as possible. It's like, you can't teach much if every reply for questions in your book are gonna be pauses, nods and "soo ka" etc. xD 2. Textbooks are always in between written and spoken Japanese I guess, which as I understand can be very different. Informal and coloquial is mostly for chat... if you need to write e-mails or more long form messages to say, an university you are expecting to attend, some exchange program, a Japanese company for work, Banks and other institutions, even between colleagues in a workplace... there's a certain degree of politeness expected there, right? Or perhaps not even politeness... just needing to write more formally for clarity. 3. The objective of whoever is learning the language is unclear, so they try jack of all trades, you know? Formal, informal, polite, coloquial, to write, to speak, required on language proficiency tests, for presentations, for exchange students of all levels, for people going to work there at all levels... very hard to cover all grounds. And then, there's probably some awareness from authors on what they are doing, but they don't want to immediately throw the book so to speak at the face of people starting to learn Japanese that there are all these different levels of politeness and formality in the language. So what comes out is this weird mix of things... xD I mean, of course some examples could have been handled better, but I can see why it's hard... I can notice this even in other languages, it's not particular to Japanese. For instance, I personally learned English from textbooks that covered grammar and written English for the most part. We had conversational lessons... listening and comprehension, but it wasn't really the main focus. Nowadays, because I mostly use English on the Internet, I have relative ease to read content and write long comments like this one, but speaking English and understanding natives talk... that's a tad more complicated. Speaking in particular is hard, because I'm just not used to. Irrelevant though, what I mean is that even for English lessons here where I live, there were two predominant methods of teaching spread around multiple different schools... conversational, and textbook grammar based ones. Few differences between schools teaching US english and UK too, plus a myriad of other things, but it was mainly divided between those two categories. You have courses for people who just wanna learn the language to use in everyday life... like people working in the tourism industry or people who intend to travel overseas for business and whatnot, and then grammar based for which courses are far longer, more involved and sticking more to formal universal English with a rigid methodology - because one of the objectives is taking a couple of tests by the end of the course that allows you to apply for an US or UK based University, or teach English in certain schools, or as a pre-requisite for certain types of jobs. Kinda like JLPT. Those tests are freaking hard, probably among the hardest tests I've ever taken outside University admission ones. The year I personally took those tests, long ago because I'm old, out of 4 graduating classes with 20 students each I think only 20 students tried taking the tests (in my local private language school I mean), and out of those 20 only 2 passed both tests. They are highly focused in minute and tricky grammar details that you only know if you really studied the language... knowing how to speak it in everyday life isn't enough. So there's that... not that I disagree with Yuta, just that in some cases - not all - there are some reasons why the Japanese taught in textbooks seems to be a weird mix of things.

[@panqueque445]

I think starting off with formal Japanese (or any other language, really) is only useful in very specific situations. If you're learning the language to do business in a different country, or maybe if you work for the government and are sent to a different country.

[@Mortablunt]

If you're dealing with a culture that takes formality seriously, it can be the difference between being welcomed and eating a fist. Back in Russia, one of my fellow students decided to use informal speech on a professor. They got screamed at and hurled from the classroom. I languages with formality and courtesy elements, they aren't negotiable and they aren't optional. People really will get offended if you don't use the proper ones.

[@infernoboy7392]

Is there a video of Yuta’s story learning English? I would love to see that

[@manabukun]

Some personal experience. I was under this impression when I started learning Japanese. I even spoke casually to my sensei once when she graciously corrected me and indicated that no matter how cool your teacher is, you should stick to formal when speaking to them and also to strangers when you don't know them enough. If you want to avoid such faux pas, it's important to learn formal/textbook Japanese. Good old learning to walk before running. Of course, learning normal everyday semiformal/colloquial Japanese must also happen eventually if you want to communicate realistically. But yes, I know people who have passed JLPTs and cannot speak normally for the life of them. :) My 2c.

[@ThatJapaneseManYuta]

Again, you are conflating formality with politeness. We speak to our boss in keigo (polite) but not in formal Japanese. I mentioned in the video that you should learn polite AND neutral Japanese.

[@manabukun]

@@ThatJapaneseManYuta Yes Probably wrong examples for formality but still, the formality helped in things like understanding public announcements or results or quite often newspapers or public statements on some issues or industry specific magazines. They still contain decent amounts of formality. It is also useful in understanding jokes which would be lost on most people if they are not familiar with the way it is used to crack jokes. For me, it was a good thing to learn.

[@ThatJapaneseManYuta]

@@manabukun Again, as I said in the video, you should eventually learn formal Japanese. But since formal variations are relatively rare in daily life, it makes more sense to learn more common variations (relatively informal but not too informal in both tamego and keigo) first and then move on to more formal variations. Frequently used words and expressions first, infrequent ones second That’s also how native speakers learn Japanese.

[@Xterminatorr]

​@@ThatJapaneseManYuta I'm confused. I signed up for your course however my intended target is neutral Japanese at the moment. Does your course provide it? Or is there a difference between formal, informal, and neutral Japanese?

[@playful1510]

Interesting to hear that ええ is more formal than はい. The impression that I got while taking my class was that, if anything, ええ is less formal than はい. That could be because we were taught はい first, and ええ second, though.

[@vornamenachname498]

i just started using みんなの日本語 and i think it helped me a lot to learn differnent ways to say things but primaraly it improved my reading and writing. Anyways I can still recommend it to everyone, even if its not teaching the ideal ways of everyday japanese.

[@れいく-e6y8i]

yeah, I think the textbooks are still a good way to learn Japanese in total. I learnt Minna no Nihongo first to have a good grasp and then learnt the colloquial Japanese.

[@U.D.senpai]

I really like your current style, you look really handsome with it! Also, great video!

[@mattyqzto7728]

I implore everyone to apply healthy scepticism when it comes to youtubers or any other "content creators" criticizing textbooks as a whole, while selling their own product without the pricing model being publicly available (AFAIK). There are reasons for many textbooks teaching polite language first (e.g. easier verb conjugation), but that doesn't mean they won't teach you casual language as well.

[@lainiwakura1776]

Yuta shilling his Japanese learning course has become a meme at this point and he has a free email list for some Japanese learning. But you must be new to his channel.

[@mattyqzto7728]

@@lainiwakura1776 I'm not new to the channel, but I've never been part of his email list or taken his courses.

[@DimaDesu]

Great information!

[@Akaykimuy]

about the なりません thing, we just studied this in uni last week. We were taught the なくてはいけない/ません and なければならない/りません forms, our professors are native speakers btw, the texts books are written by them too. I think the idea is to start with the more formal forms and then work down to the more informal forms. But it's still weird to repeat all these normal example sentences with なくてはいけません

[@thearchlich7273]

Regardless of opinions, I think it is great that you give people like me an opportunity to learn both nattural and informal Japanesse, as most sources only teach the unnatural textbook 馬鹿外人語. People who want to learn from textbooks, can do it. It is not like you are stopping them, so I don't see what their problem is. I personally think your course is very good, and it also includes chapters that introduce 敬語, so I don't really undersand the issue the people have with you at all.

[@bobfranklin2572]

I've literally seen a learner correct my Japanese workmate by saying he was "speaking wierd". And essentially said he was showing off/talking fancy because be said things "differently" (from the text book)...

[@bobfranklin2572]

Yeah that's it! I commented before writing my comment, but that's EXACTLY what they said! "The *Proper* version"

[@punchline1729]

I can absolutely understand what this video says, because my native language ( Farsi ) has similar structures in terms of politeness level and how to talk in formal situations vs colloquial spoken Farsi

[@Rubycon99]

When you think about it, whatever your native language is, you learned it by speaking casually and then gradually learned how to speak in a more formal "proper" manner, not the other way around.

[@matoikazamaki9522]

I find it interesting that you chose the "nakya ikenai" example, since I had it to be quite a difficulty when I first learned it. I was just told that as a block that you add after a verb to give the meaning "I must" Like tabenakya ikenai = "I must eat". And I always found it so confusing because of how unusual it looked compared to verb inflexions that I previously knew, and I also found it hard to remember. Weeks later, I came across someone who actually explained what this phrase meant. "nakya" is actually the contraction of "nakereba", which is the conditional form of the negation "nai", and ikenai is the negative potential form of iku, which is what carries the meaning of "I must not". And once I understood that, the phrasing actually made so much sense to me. To me, the most efficient way to learn such an expression is actually to deconstruct it and analyse it. Because when you do so, you actually understand what logic is behind it, rather than having to memorize an abstract blurry concept. After you've learned the actual explanation you can then learn how to either make it more colloquial by shortening it or how to make it more formal/polite with the "naranai" version of it. That's at least what works the best for me

[@iprobablyforgotsomething]

I wish more classes / teachers broke stuff down like that. . Instead they do stuff like teach "xyz means good morning" when no it doesn't, it means like "hey fellow early bird" but is casual and only acceptable to be used in the mornings when informality is alright before the work day starts, so don't say it at work, use "abc" which means like "I bid you good morning" instead. Which would help you understand the culture as well as remember why you use one version of 'good morning' at home and another at work. . It's also hard to analyze word meaning and sentence structure when teachings lie to you that "xyz something" just means "good morning" when it doesn't. . For example, and I know it's a ConLang but bear with me, one of the (Tolkien) Elvish phrases "an ngell nin" that gets used in place of English "please" but actually translates (as per JRRT) as "for my joy" which is their cultural equivalent of our polite-pleading-request phrase. . I'd never be able to properly analyze and transfer-usage of "an ngell nin" if I thought it literally meant please. For one thing, nin = my, and running into it in phrases like "ion-nin/ionneg" -- . ("my son" or probably more literally son-mine or son of mine, and why does nobody explain why we have two different words and a different word-order in the Elvish??! how am I supposed to learn this fake-lang properly if nobody--!) . -- would send me into a tizzy trying to understand how nin could be part of the translation of "my son" but also "please". . And real language classes do this all the time, and without accurate translations and cultural context clues, a student can't even properly undertake their own studies from an accurate starting point. It gets to feeling like paying to NOT actually be taught a language, not usefully and retain-ably, at any rate. >: {

[@AlkonKomm]

I am taking japanese courses at university and let me tell you, 尊敬語 and 謙譲語 are like the biggest pain ever. Absolutely hated the oral exam where I had to use it. The only thing I like even less is remembering hundreds of Kanji, but that's certainly a common sentiment for foreigners trying to study japanese, no getting around that.

[@絵空事-o4e]

Schools utilize mass memorization over learning by experience and context because the latter doesn't even require a classroom and yields little to no profit.

[@12kenbutsuri]

The irony is, most japanese wont even know how to speak kenjogo, and half of sonkei go. The only important thing is that you show you are trying to speak it, and people are fine woth it, even for natives.

[@サラ-b6v]

Ur videos really help 😍🤩😘😊🙏

[@braeduin]

English (as a foreign language) textbooks also suffer from the same problems. This likely stems from traditional ideas of written language being seen as superior to spoken language. So naturally problems arise when learners try to speak the language and end up sounding stiff and unnatural. This is why it is important to have a teacher guide learners and supplement their learning with exposure to graded spoken forms of language. I honestly think Genki is a great textbook as it does incorporate different forms, however, to get the most out of it you do need a qualified language teacher to help you navigate the complexities inherent in language learning.

[@polyhistorphilomath]

I plan to speak formal Japanese in my day-to-day life as the prime minister.

[@TheBombayMasterTony]

Good explanation.

[@bryan.w.t]

People always forget there are different rules and expectations between different languages. In English, you can basically talk to anyone the same way. A shop employee can talk to you like a friend. It’s not the same in Japanese. Talking to a friend is different than to a teacher or how a store employee talk to you. It can be difficult to learn both, but know the expectations between languages is good.

[@Kelsey-xr8fg]

Following the story of Mary and Takeshi is the best part of Genki.

[@StefandeJong1]

Here's the thing though: although you're 100% right, and you've given some very good examples that should be changed because of there being nog reason to be that formal (especially with しなければなりません). The thing is that with more polite and formal expressions, is that grammar is most easily generalized and makes it easier to understand. "If you just learn how real life Japanese people speak..." Is easier said than done. There are a ton of nuances in how you casually speak Japanese: whether you're male, female, and the social relationship to the conversation partner. I've learned through Minna no Nihongo twice, and am now doing "Tobira: Gateway to Advanced Japanese", which DOES teach you all the in and outs of casual/neutral Japanese and context. With the basic grammar you've learned, all these nuances are much easier to learn, compared to when you'd have to learn all these nuances simultaneous to learning the underlying grammar you're trying to understand

[@Xubuntu47]

You put into words what I have been trying to wrap my head around. In the standard -masu and desu level of Japanese, the grammar seems more transparent. It is easier for me to understand. Colloquial Japanese is harder at first. But that's what people mostly speak, so you end up being understood by Japanese people but being clueless when they talk to you.

[@Parachoice]

Even I as Japanese can't understand too polite sentences😂😂

[@ririri88]

How often have I heard my teacher saying “we usually don’t use the formal version or we don’t use this word at all . It’s tedious for us to speak formal all the time so we don’t do it. I wish there was a book/language course that only teaches you informal spoken japanese.

[@adriangrana1239]

If you want to learn grammar, I can recommend Tae Kim's Grammar Guide, it's free even, it teaches both formal and informal Japanese, but the first whole section of the book is informal Japanese. He uses Kanji right from the get-go and tries to make examples with natural sentences, I can advice you to at least read his introduction, there he explained why most textbooks for learning Japanese are flawed.

[@LucTaylor]

If you want to learn Japanese Yuta will teach you the real life Japanese that people today actually speak

[@LucTaylor]

Can you make a video about こと (koto) vs 物 (mono) ... Every time I think I understand I see another example that confuses me. I never understood why people say "私のこと" when 私 seems to have the same meaning

[@IronLotus15]

I guess you could translate "私のこと" as almost "The thing about me". But take that with a grain of salt because I'm not a native speaker lol

[@bm1259]

YOU CANT LEARN A LANGUAGE WITHOUT INTERACTING WITH NATIVES AND NATIVE MATERIAL. So many people over complicate the learning process its annoying and mostly wrong. Find a grammar guide (I like nihongo no mori and curedollys vids), blaze through it. Grind like 2-4k words and then just IMMERSE IN THE FUCKING LANGUAGE THAT SHOULD BE 99% OF WHAT YOUR LEARNING IS COMPRISED OF.

[@lgndrylucas1984]

I’m going to try to use Yuta’s course, Genki, Duolingo for fun, maybe japanese ammo with Misa, and I also listen to native Japanese gamers and try to read the comments on their videos on YT everyday. I think that doing this will help me learn casual, polite, and formal Japanese from the start. The online learning, then listening and reading from native speakers would cancel out the bad aspects of Genki and Duolingo, so I would still benefit from those without doing any harm, right? 🤔. What do you guys think? Edit: 4 months later, I’ve dumped Duolingo and Genki, and pretty much just immerse in native content by watching streamers, influencers, and reading Percy Jackson again in japanese. I also watch japanese ammo with misa’s videos. They’re super helpful. This is being very effective and I can now hold a basic conversation :)

[@bobfranklin2572]

Just immerse

[@Dr.PicklePh.D.]

That sounds great! I took college courses in Japanese, which used the Genki books, and used Japanese Ammo with Misa for grammar points that were confusing or needed more explaining. Vtubers, gamers, and other Japanese KZbinrs are a great resource for immersion because depending on the creator and type of video, they use a range of formal to casual language, and they put out so dang much content (especially streamers). I'm sure you've heard before that communicating with native speakers is the best way to learn, and that still stands, but if that isn't a possibility at the moment, you're doing the next best thing. The things textbooks teach are useful and even correct in some situations, so if you combine that with listening to natural spoken Japanese and lessons/tips by native speakers, you'll do great.

[@Dr.PicklePh.D.]

And then as you get more advanced, you'll figure out what works best for you and which things you need to work on. Stay open and have fun 😊

[@lgndrylucas1984]

@@Dr.PicklePh.D. Thanks!

[@Tennosan]

I suggest you to watch Onomappu if you have time, he teaches good.

[@TamagoSenshi]

The most frustrating thing about language resources is that they're often inconsistent. Switching formality is the biggest, but sometimes they'll insist on certain word choices in one example, then expect different word choices in another example that should follow the same rules. Sometimes, they'll insist that something particular in a sentence should be the focus when nothing indicates that thing to be the focus

[@yoonjiniverse]

Japanese is so hard to learn since they're many forms 😫 I want to learn in a way where I won't sound rude In Spanish there's formal and informal but it's not that hard to learn,it's not much words you change also there's no polite or neutral way of speaking, I think

[@KxmpleteKxllapse]

watch TokiniAndy ‘s Genki beginner vids

[@nicbentulan]

This is how I feel when I help my younger sibling with maths homework given my younger sibling is an engineering programme. Engineers just don't know how to teach maths! Frustrating! I'm of course more critical than Yuta.

[@IdontknowhoIameither]

In european portuguese we've got formal and informal way of addressing someone. You're/your/with you informally would be tu és/teu/contigo and you're/your/with you formally would be você é/seu/consigo

[@mpforeverunlimited]

I switch between both if I just let my words flow freely. I worked in a Japanese restaurant for years when I was young and picked it up there. So I heard both a lot, and I mix certain dialects in because that's what I heard. For me to speak in formal "proper" Japanese takes a lot of focus.

[@acgm046]

Random commenter: You gotta learn *proper* Japanese first! Yuta: *I'm about to end this man's whole argument*

[@DiogoVKersting]

The voice actor for Yuta is really good.

[@KaranvirT]

I agree that textbooks often teach an overly formal form of Japanese but I think there's enough variety among methods of learning Japanese (different textbook series, language classes, youtube, etc.) that it's a matter of what purpose the individual is learning Japanese for. I think for people looking to travel to Japan or being able to converse with normal Japanese people, there is much more importance for conversational Japanese, both formal and informal. textbooks don't make the most sense for this group, although there are some exceptional textbooks which also discuss informal Japanese. I think this group makes up the majority of the people on the internet interested in learning Japanese, so overall, saying that textbooks are not the best tool to learn Japanese is a pretty good judgement. For people intending to use Japanese in a work setting (like me) I think it makes sense to learn the more formal version first to be able to use in a work setting, and then begin to understand conversational and more informal (but still polite) forms to be able to converse with others. in addition to conversation, in a work setting there is also a lot of emphasis on reading/writing Japanese, and so learning the formal forms used in writing are quite useful. Once again, this group of people who need to use Japanese in a formal setting is much smaller than the other group which mainly needs it in casual settings. Personally I would much prefer to accidentally be too formal to a stranger than to be informal to a Senpai.

[@TengokuEXE]

I've found that many Japanese textbooks teach Japanese differently. For example, some teach informal and dictionary forms first and then build to polite/formal. Many start from polite and conjugate backwards, or conjugate differently. It's really weird. Some slowly introduce grammar in conversation and expressions, while others hyper focus on learning all grammatical rules. If using textbooks, I recommend looking at multiple, since the way many people talk, teach, or translate in their heads is completely different, so books will have different philosophies.. And most importantly, listen to how real people talk and determine for yourself what is useful from the textbooks.

[@bobfranklin2572]

I think this is a great comment and I mostly agree, except you shouldn't be translating in your head (imo)

[@TengokuEXE]

@@bobfranklin2572 what I meant was that people think differently, so because there are so many ways to say the same thing in both languages, when a sentence is translated, the end result is often different for different for everyone. As long as the meaning is the same between two different translations, they're probably both correct. I call these "semantic translations". Though, some people are extremely literal, while others might add too much flagrance.

[@bobfranklin2572]

@@TengokuEXE but the meanings aren't the same though

[@TengokuEXE]

@@bobfranklin2572 Many grammatical things don't translate 1-1 between English and Japanese. So unless it's a machine translation, different people might translate things differently depending on how literal they are being, emphasize they are putting on certain words, or even sentence structure. You can find good examples of this when comparing things like fan vs official translations of manga, or by comparing your own translation to others.

[@bobfranklin2572]

@@TengokuEXE but why are you translating in my head. Thats the thing I'm asking. You didn't need to tell me obvious stuff I already knew dude

[@lainiwakura1776]

I'd like to hear Yuta's opinion on Yookoso, since that's the textbook my Japanese teacher used.

[@sciverzero8197]

I think, just given what I've seen as an outsider looking at japanese text... It seems like japanese language learning books are written using signage japanese most of the time. Language that may not be completely formal, but is strangely formal or polite at times, and informal in other ways... which I've noticed often happens on notices and signs... or at least it seems that way because those are the words and conjugations I recognize, and I see them most often in written text. I don't know if its something the writers do because they're used to writing in this form because that's what they normally write... or if perhaps they intend for you to learn that form of japanese because its most common in the text you'll be reading on signs or menus or such. Another theory I have is that its written the way it is to... create a form of stateless japanese... that isn't any of the common forms of japanese, but includes parts of all of them, similar to how some anime tries to remove identity from different races, cultures or so on in their setting, so that they just seem different from each other but not alien to the viewer. It could also be a leftover practice from when western people were first encountering Japan, and its actually based on the "foreigner dialect" that formed as a result of westerners not really understanding the language... essentially the textbook teaches you to sound like a foreigner because that's what foreigners sound like. I don't know which is true or if many of them are all true, or none of them... but those are my theories for why japanese-as-a-second-language textbooks use such stilted and unnatural language.

[@voidmain2453]

if you think japanese is weird when over politeness feels bad, in english, a coworker of mine I know for over a year replies in our text app things like "please kindly provide me the URL ..." and that sounds kinda rude as if he's mocking me or trying to feel superior, but I know that's not his intention whatsoever

[@funpheonix9752]

I posted how I wish that textbooks and apps taught more natural Japanese and I got similar responses. “You have to learn how to speak it properly first” 🙃

[@Harry-x4n]

At this point I'm just unlearning everything I've unintentionally picked up from watching anime.

[@tobikunai]

The comment that Yuta is responding to has another wrong assumption. In English, more correct = more formal, less correct = less formal. E.g., "isn't" vs "ain't," "me and my friend" vs "my friend and I." English doesn't have many ways to signify formality. But that's not the case in Japanese and other languages that have real grammatical rules for informal speech. These languages have levels of formality that are separate from levels of slangy looseness. In this light, it may be quite correct to say that an English learner should study textbook English first. And that's because informal English is derived from textbook English. But you can't assume that for other languages.

[@yoonjiniverse]

In English you don't change your way of speech when talking to elders or younger/same age people right I think English is easier to learn since you don't get to learn formal and informal

[@mwilliams7511]

I like your new look Yuta! Very handsome.

[@avatardm]

I wonder if ええ popularity in text books is related to it maybe sounding more informal and natural to foreigners? はい is very like English "yes", while ええ sounds to me more like "yeah" or just the nonverbal sound one can make to show approval.

[@SeraYagami]

Yuta-sense what are you wearing? 🙈 Also, I think there's one disconnect happening here. People arguing about textbook Japanese being proper might be people who want to learn Japanese for professional purpose rather than to make friends etc. That said, the textbooks do have inconsistencies and errors even based on their own rules.

[@pedroyuuhi]

They're both important, god knows how much paperwork you have to do if you wanna live in Japan, but the problem is that textbooks (for all languages) expect you to use formal sentences everywhere

[@glanced9684]

Helo Yuta. I hope you could make street interviews videos again. I love watching them.

[@Danswor1]

I think having this type of discussion it's unnecessary. People should learn a language in the way best suits them, I don't think there is an absolute way to learn a language, and having this type of discussion it's so discouraging to people trying to clear Japanese because the language is already complex and having so many different opinions on how you should learn it adds more difficulty. I think you should have a foundation to lean on when learning a language then you expand that foundation. I started learning English with 'my name is", 'how are you' 'I'm fine and you?' Those were the 3 first things I learn and the more I interacted with English speakers, watch movies, videos on YT, my vocabulary expanded more and more the more exposed to the language I was. Does that mean it will work for someone else? Not. At. All. Because we all learn things in different ways, there's no absolute way to learn something. We all learn in different ways. Some with textbooks, some with videos, some with classes, and some with Yuta.

[@puvididdle]

Obito asking the big questions.

[@villyanakoycheva7933]

In みんなの日本語foreigners are being taught to standard Japanese language, which is unchangeable, and formal. As long as I have noticed until now, in Japan it is preferable to be able to speak formal. Standard japanese language gs possible to be changed...

[@アレックスの部屋-s9h]

確かに、N1をとっても、必ずしもネイチブを理解する訳でもない。そう考えると、教科書に日本語って丸で外人マークのようにあるんだね。 やっぱり、日常生活に使うやつを学ぶのが一番手っ取り早いね

[@nirin8993]

Yuta ended textbook writers’ careers 💀🔥

[@Benedict00_ItchyManko]

Can you give us your opinion on Violetta Razdumina's japanese from terrace house tokyo 2019-2020 please??

[@thevinmeister5015]

Textbooks are important, but they are only one of many resources.

[@AnthonyCasabar]

Interested

[@StrangerHappened]

*Yuta-chan, can you please interview a Japanese linguist about the issue?* You are a software programmer in the first place, so your points, however sound they are to an unprofessional ear, could use a backing from academic philology (with a degree).

[@simonlow0210]

That would be a nice idea.

[@KH-tp7qx]

Seeing the comments many are still confused Politeness and Formalness. In Japanese/Korean, you will still use normal form (non-polite) in a lot of formal setting (for example, business meeting, it is formal, but your boss is not going to use です　ます to his employees. I still dont understand why some japaneses teachers keep using the term formal/informal, when it has nothing to do with formalness. Call it polite form, it is also what it is called in school grammar (丁寧).

[@SickLiq]

That robe though!

[@Verbalaesthet]

With proper he means stuff like している instead of してる. And it makes perfect sense. If you start with the short forms your language skills will later be mixed formal and informal as it is often the case with foreigners who live in your country and imitate the informal speech of their coworkers.

[@ThatJapaneseManYuta]

It's very easy to explain してる is a contraction of しているand most people don't have trouble understanding that. No need to just learn one. Learn both and it will help you a lot to understand spoken Japanese.

[@Verbalaesthet]

@@ThatJapaneseManYuta He didn't say not learning one of them but starting with the proper one first I believe.

[@anonymous38741]

@@Verbalaesthet You're going to encounter てる endings exceedingly often so you might as well learn them right away and learn what they are rather than be confused every time you encounter them.

[@valryered]

As someone who hopes to pass the JLPT N5, I'm so confused now. I don't know what to do in order to learn correctly.

[@Soulskinner]

Then you should "start" from formal. Or get nice grammar book, or something like this, but pass JLPT N5 when you'll learn the formal language. Not on the perfect level. Like far from it, these are usual ます、です stuff. At least, as I get. Because every textbook I've seen on JLPT N5, start from formal language.

[@12kenbutsuri]

Just follow any learning material you like, the important thing us you just do. it will be very easy to switch to formal or informal, since there is a lot of overlap.

[@skulibaumgardner242]

Yoo that’s the chapter my class is on in the げんき textbook

[@laserbean00001]

Lol. That hanekawa reference.

[@EmanLannehc]

I've been believing that ええ was a rather informal expression, for over 20 years O_O. oh my...

[@marklee331]

try the Nihongo shinkanzen master

[@MusicalRaichu]

sorry i was unable to watch all the video, but i have to say that when it comes to politeness register (casual vs polite vs honorific), my textbooks have taught me the kind of japanese i regularly hear and use. i don't have close japanese friends and family so i mostly communicate with strangers and online acquaintances. living in australia, it's only in fiction that i come across colloquial japanese. however, textbooks don't put enough emphasis on explaining many very common honorific words such as itadaku, yoroshii, gozaru and so on that confuse me when i hear them. it also means if i need to be extra polite, which happens very often to me, i'm not sure how to be. textbooks also fail to teach important aspects of the language such as the differences in pronoun usage between speech, formal writing, fiction, etc., many common contractions such as te iku becoming teku.

[@dejanpetkovic7995]

The prime ministers sentence at 8:43 is imposible to understand without subtitles :O

[@nekominato1570]

I think many people are confusing polite and formal. It's good to learn polite Japanese first, but not formal Japanese. 尊敬語 and 謙譲語 are not necessary at first. Not even many Japanese can use them properly.

[@madeofnapalm]

Is that a ninja outfit 😋

[@ajbcruz]

Wait a minute. I was taught ee was the informal version of hai. My childhood has been a lie!

[@hermawan6424]

I was hit by a demon attack, I need a miracle from Shinto gods, I have done many exorcism but to no avail, I hope you pray for me in one of the jinja on ema, I hope to get well, thank you for caring for me.

[@hermawan6424]

i think i only live once, so i really thank you for praying for me at ema, i just need to wait for the Shinto gods and goddesses to answer ema's prayers, after i recover i can work and start a new life.

[@bobfranklin2572]

Why would you ever want to learn a language that nobody in the country really speaks (or even actually writes/reads) as almost a "warm up" for the "harder" stuff??? I see this a LOT in the community; people spending a year learning Kana and relying on romaji for a year. They're absolutely terrified of the Kanji bogeyman. They spend 3+ years getting to a point where they're ready to learn actual, real Japanese only to have built up SO many bad habits and having developed such an absurdly warped assumption of what the language is really like.

[@ollie8850]

Hey I finished your 3 Japanese lessons and I was wondering how do I access the premium content? I haven’t been sent a link.

[@Fintara]

Would you reccomend looking at a textbook like Genki, and then looking at other sources for different variations of those grammatical structures?

[@Psrj-ad]

can you cover some Vtubers? alot of Japanese Vtubers speak with intresting accents and manurisms, which could be intresting to get into. and alot of english Vtubers are learning Japanese or are already really good with it, which could also be intresting to break down.

[@amanosatoshitranslates]

hai yuta-sensei can you recommend visual novels that csn help me learn japanese?

[@o0...957]

I use Minna no Nihongo.

[@Whoo711]

I'm curious to know to what degree so-called "grammar Nazis" exist in Japan, if at all? Like, are they, at least, somewhat 'noticeable' online, or do they practically not exist over there? Esp. to, say, the extent that they "Exist" here in the West, occasionally What some folks claim is "proper grammar" is, oftentimes, just their aesthetic preference for certain phrases and ways of speaking and/or writing that "roll off the tongue better and look better", to them.

[@DarkCrimsonZ27]

Sensei I have a question (a little shot in the dark) but how would you use a textbook to grow in Japanese. Is there a textbook that you personally would recommend for English speakers?