We Gotta Talk About SMG's in Destiny 2 PVP

SMG's are quickly taking over the PVP meta. Where winning matters like Comp and Trials of Osiris, they're holding a solid lead over all other primary types in the game. How did they get there, and do they need a nerf? Let's chat about it.
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[@CoolGuyGames]

That cloudstrike gp was HOT

[@Vidalmuziq]

Why is nobody talking about this 😂 not everyone utubs😂

[@ethanbeath965]

TV using a sniper? coolguy approves? Must be a banger lol

[@patrickarraes4422]

Coolguy simping for cloudstrike gp? What a shocker

[@-chase-9725]

Indubitably 👌🏼

[@bonefat21]

I think SMGs are a case where power creep is most clearly felt. Power creep tends to come in the form of newer guns having better stats or stronger perks. With SMGs, the thing holding them back is their range, meaning newer SMGs that have longer range are significantly stronger. With something like a hand cannon, power creep is not felt as much because a three tap is still a three tap, regardless of how easy that three tap was to hit. On the receiving end, it feels the same. But when you get killed by an SMG from farther away than SMGs used to kill you before, you notice that.

[@panini15]

I don't think it is a power creep issue, the best smgs now have less range than they did 1-1.5 years ago the max range on a shayura is 24.75 metres (edit 26 metres)but when It first dropped it had almost 30, there was multimach it had 25.22 meters and old heros burden with 26 metres with kill clip stat for stat the strongest smgs are weaker than they were before, but the meta just shifted around them and more people are playing/have more access to good rolled smgs.

[@brothatscrazy3418]

​@@panini15 Shayuras max range is 26m btw

[@OSTATEboi419]

@@panini15 exactly. Smgs naturally have a fast ttk of around 0.8 sec which you can hit pretty easily within 25m, on a very forgiving weapon type. With the exception of tarrabah, i dont think they're an issue, i just think you see them more because they're a good pairing with long range primaries with this map rotation. If we get lots of mid range maps back next season, handcannon/shotty will come back in a big way, without bungie even touching smgs.

[@greyklopstock7155]

This. The SMGs being used are all big time powerhouses in range. And the thing with SMGs is, they have to have SIGNIFICANTLY more range than sidearms for them to be viable. So you can only nerf them so far until sidearms become far and away better. We saw this last season when sidearm range got buffed. You could not compete with an SMG because things like drang would take one or two steps in and shred you. SMGs as a weapon type are the most beholden to the zoom stat than pretty much everything but sidearms, which are all pretty much kept at the same zoom. The difference between SMGs being useable and not is like, a meter. Look at enyo d. The absolute max you can reach with an enyo is 24m, and most are gonna fall more into 22-23m. Shayura easily gets past 23, and you see way more shayuras than you ever do enyo d. To me, I think the real issue is a combination of power creep and overlap of frames. The precision frame is supposed to have the most range, but things like ikelos, borrowed time, and funnelweb are consistently reaching into those ranges with faster ttk. Because of that, they are really making a lot of noise since they can reach out just as far, kill faster, and often have additional upsides like faster movement and more forgiving body shot ttk. I think an interesting way to nerf them would actually be to decrease their reload stats and decrease the magazine size of those faster SMGs. That way, you have to pick and choose battles, and you won't be able to sustain combat for nearly as long as a hand cannon. So you'd have to play more into what an SMG is instead of just walking at people and outgunning them

[@brothatscrazy3418]

@@OSTATEboi419 Most SMGs have a TTK of 670-730ms with the precision frames hitting 800ms.

[@ochrejokre2029]

SMGs are definitely cooking, but the numbers this weekend were inflated by them being the best pairing with sniper rifles for this map (IMO). Now if they were the number one weapon on a map they had no business being number one on, I would be more concerned. For most of the earlier weeks the difference was nowhere near as drastic and SMGs were often below other short range solutions. I wouldn't be surprised to see them reel in ikelos specifically though.

[@ShaoShaoMienshao]

Yeah, Ikelos has only gotten worse as more players have completed their crafting patterns. Its getting more and more popular by the day. They also make the perfect pairing with the popular low-TTK pulse rifles. Rasputin's Arsenal makes IKELOS unstoppable in PvP. The glaring weakness of its low magazine size is completely eliminated.

[@WHlSKYtx]

It’s how easy they are to use the numbers just support that

[@bannedmann4469]

I and other also just wanted to have fun with Terribah before they hit the range next week.

[@Mcmegavirgin]

@@WHlSKYtx yeah because of the map. you really wouldnt see smgs being so dominant on a map like bannerfall

[@weout6074]

Fought trash streamers using ikelos and witherhoard in trials… still cooked them… but there is no way the games should be 5-4…..

[@YouForgotTheCarrots]

I’m really worried about nerfing smgs too hard in an otherwise very passive meta. Reducing aggressive options feels like a risky play considering how few aggressive options can still compete

[@seza9240]

pls delete this

[@desuzx]

Make hc/shotgun or sniper meta again. Most balanced and most fun ong

[@jubeijackson6602]

Nice playing with you last night. I rolled my hat at you on Bannerfall. I just couldn’t capture zones and everyone went negative but you. Twas fun while it lasted. SMG’s are indeed Bonkers atm. Cheers TV

[@TrueVanguard]

Well belated ggs then! I remember that match, was a tough one.

[@jubeijackson6602]

@@TrueVanguard it was tough! They put hands on me every zone I tried to capture 😅 GG’s to you too and thank you thank you for the clean fam friendly content.

[@dewdusmaximus7692]

The issue with your proposed solution is people will immediately drop whatever weapons (SMGs in this case) for the next outlier or set of outliers.

[@bannedmann4469]

Yup, an endless problem. I think content creators push for this cause they're bored. Always remember they have extra motives normal players don't.

[@alhasanshebl8192]

Targeted nerfs are the best idea. Outside of ikelos, terrobah, and Shayura's, with a mix of submission in there. Other than that, I never saw escape velocity, pizzicato, forensic nightmare... etc. We have so many other smgs that are outshines by only a few, and it's honestly sad to see.

[@OSTATEboi419]

That's also because those smgs are pretty trash and would get wrecked by handcannons and sidearms.

[@alhasanshebl8192]

@Ostateboi 419 In my eyes, they really aren't all that trash if they get beat by a hc. Hand cannons are literally supposed to out range smgs. Think of it like smgs are auto rifles with sidearm ranges they aren't meant to be mid range fighters.

[@skoomaguy3748]

@@OSTATEboi419 the escape velocity xur just sold is better than my crafted submission tbh

[@bobbyvoth2353]

@@skoomaguy3748 what’s ur crafted?! i’ve got 2.5k on my sub and the EV isn’t even close

[@Porsche911RSR-0]

@@bobbyvoth2353 it's cus of the 16 zoom

[@TheJorbor]

I personally believe the problem more lies in an easy disengage meta feeding weapons like tarrabah to be much stronger then it was during beyond light, but also that most of those top pick non exotic options benefit from being adapt or crafted and having more then generous range amounts. I've mained peacekeepers titan for a long while and my own personal hope is that the high end range of smgs should only be able to step on the toes of a mid to low range 180 hc some where around maybe 19m in game. a sidenote the map rotation does play well into pulses yes but i think the flinch changes and pulses needing high stability anyways makes them much stronger then needed maybe a reduced flinch scaler on pulse or reduce the flinch delt.

[@sammmB9]

Exactly if the main way to get kills is to go all in, smgs are gonna be better than handcannons which really struggle the moment someone throws up a bastion overshield or dodges to get completely out of the way etc.

[@MGShadow1989]

I personally don't think SMG's are a problem, I think the issue is as you mentioned at the start the maps being mostly long range so we want something close range to complement our longer range choice, and SMGs are the best all rounder for that. If they brought back more close range maps I'd suspect to see more Sidearm use. I'd prefer to see others brought up so there aren't such big outliers, rather than nerf the outliers. Forensic Nightmare It's the same archetype as Shayura's but it's still really lacking - I'm not suggesting it be as good, but it would be nice if we had a craftable competitor. The best I can do with FN without sacrificing any stats like stability or handling is 20.1m, while Shayura's starts at 20.78m and can get to 24.72 without sacrificing any stats - would it not be better to have Precision frames as standard be the longer range SMG archetype, starting at 20ish meters? obviously tweak the numbers so ttk is balanced by range but I think that would be better than Shayura's being this weird outlier. Blood Feud is the same archetype as Ikelos and I don't think I've ever seen it in PvP; the Title and Borrowed Time also the same 750 rpm and I haven't seen either in months - I don't think the stability on Ikelos is the problem; of the 7 Aggressive frames not sunset only 2 have a stability below 10 (Cold Front has 7, Extraordinary Rendition has 8) and they're not even available right now I don't think; Blood Feud is next with 11, then Unforgiven with 16, then Borrowed Time with 18, The Title has 20 and Ikelos has 25. I think the issue is that Ikelos doesn't have to sacrifice stability for its range, and in fact gains some stability from Seraph rounds - my PvP craft right now has 32 stability with 22.38m before accounting for Rangefinder. I can't actually match that with Blood Feud even if I go for Full Bore and it goes down to 1 stability, lol I don't think it's Ikelos that's the outlier here really, I think it's Blood Feud and those with similarly low stability. I don't think Ikelos should have Rangefinder though because it has Seraph Rounds, but Blood Feud definitely should have it - Encore & Rangefinder would be a fun combo.

[@MGShadow1989]

I just thought of another thing to add on here - I wonder if it would be worth changing the recoil direction on SMGs to not be so vertical at base, making it so you have to try to balance the range, stability and recoil; if you go full range it'll be harder to control at that range, if you fix the recoil or go for stability it's at the cost of something. The general rule seems to be that slower weapons such as SRs and HCs don't need as much stability because of their slower RoF, but on ARs and PRs we want stability, especially on the higher RoF - SMGs seem to be the exception since their recoil is so predictable.

[@Eclipse-bn2ng]

I do not believe shayuras is an outlier among smgs. My reasonably well rolled Shayuras has the same range as a max range ikelos, which deals more flinch and has a far stronger ttk. Shayuras is popular because it’s easier to use and many people have a decent roll th ask to its presence in the loot pool for a long time.

[@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong]

it also looks cool

[@RhythmicRetro]

I completely agree with your points. I'm actually really happy to hear someone bring this up because I've seen a massive uptick in smg usage (particularly ikelos) over the last several weeks and it's driving me insane. I play controller on PC and I often feel like there's nothing I can do against them.

[@Monkeyrides123]

you play controller on pc.... put down the sticks and learn mnk, you will become such a better player

[@dominik-wj2jt]

Do you not also think the "uptick" might be a result of it being the best craftable weapon this season? You could have made the same argument for Eyasluna, Austringer, and Drang a few seasons ago.

[@RhythmicRetro]

@@Monkeyrides123 I bet I would get better from it, but I really hate using the keyboard, its so uncomfortable. Really the only reason I'm on PC is because I built a fancy one that runs destiny really well, and I just deal with having a different input method than most. I do alright but some things get very frustrating over time.

[@RhythmicRetro]

@@dominik-wj2jt that's true, I'm sure lots of people are trying out their fancy new weapon. But I get the feeling that many people will be sticking with ikelos if nothing changes. The range at which I'm being melted by it seems so much farther than smgs have been reaching recently, and I think it throws off the balance of sidearms and hand cannons. In general I am seeing smgs a lot more than before the range buff, like everyone who was using something else realized that their favorite smg was on top again.

[@dominik-wj2jt]

@@RhythmicRetro I think a big contributor may also be the crafting system. Not since its introduction in Warmind have I seen so many people rocking the Ikelos SMG. Factor in that there hasn't been a (decent) craftable hand cannon since the Austringer and that there was no sidearm in this season. Where as for craftable SMGs we've had one every season since season of the Haunted, and let's not forget no hand cannon or side arm in Vow. I think they need to give hand cannons and autos some love. All it takes is one good craftable (140 or 150) hand cannon, and you'll see the meta balance itself out very quickly.

[@Sliq_tv]

Is there any sniper more satisfying than Cloudstrike? I agree that the best SMG’s do the work for you, but the average SMG’s are just kinda normal. Like Forensic Nightmare is pretty tricky and definitely doesn’t have the bonkers range of Shayuras. Tarrabah is a monster but I’m torn because you sacrifice an exotic slot and the perk really only excels of you don’t weapon swap which can hinder your performance and effective range.

[@CarriesOnTop]

Terrabah is literally a broken gun, Sliq out here exposing his crutches. This is why u can't listen to 1 tricks never will truelly be fair to his crutches🤭

[@dominik-wj2jt]

@@CarriesOnTop if tarrabah is such a broken gun, why isn't everyone using it? I main tarrabah and submission with peacekeepers and I run into another tarrabah user maybe once every 10 matches (and they usually only have less than 100 PvP kills with it) . Is it being overused on PC because I don't see it on console.

[@snipey8623]

@@dominik-wj2jt you need 240 spoils to get it from the kiosk and most players do not have the time or want to do that

[@CarriesOnTop]

@@dominik-wj2jt its simple u either aren't playing rumble or trials freelance but usage rates don't mean everything. Now stop pestering me u bot

[@dominik-wj2jt]

@@CarriesOnTop so much for having an open discussion. Why so mad, bruh? I asked an honest question. Is this more of a PC issue because I don't see it on console. At the end of the day, If there is going to be a nerf, I'm down. it won't stop me from maining the weapon. Was just curious. 😊

[@Brian-ch6hg]

With the few exceptions you mentioned, smgs don’t present a big problem for me. Most are just ok. It does feel bad to lose at HC range to an Ikelos though. Seems like they need some accuracy or damage falloff tweaks. Again, only for the few.

[@matthatter3353]

I think the more we call for nerfs to weapons that aren’t usually meta that finally are, the more we are going to stay in hand cannon/shotgun metas throughout Destiny. I don’t think there should be changes to stability on SMGs but just target nerf ones that have higher zoom that are reaching unintended ranges. SMGs are finally a good pick for the last couples seasons, don’t nerf the stability and make them unusable again. That would take away all the hard work and buffs that brought them to usable. That’s my take, it might be a little hot. And this is coming from a constant hand cannon user. Good vid TV

[@jormungandr4690]

If you were a constant HC user you would know that there is literally zero reason to run HC right now.

[@christopherroberts9885]

Thank you somebody finally spoke on this,smgs are out ranging handcannon from handcannon range sometimes even matching up at pulse range ridiculous

[@kennethcress4535]

I came for the SMG discussion. I stayed for the cloudstrike clinic!

[@josuecervantes1757]

I personally don’t mind smgs. I think with all the over shields and healing, pulses are what’s keeping hand cannons from being used. Also at least we’re not complaining about special weapons for once so it’s not too bad imo

[@Exposingfrauds143]

I've been A-day one player Since D1 and D2 The only thing I've ever complained about was not having enough vault space

[@brendanmemmott1597]

Was playing trials last weekend and some guy using ikelos smg was dueling me (using a pulse) at pulse rifle range... it was that moment I knew smgs were busted. At least a few of them like ikelos, shayruas and tarrabah

[@mje1984x]

~ 3:30 -ish: Hand cannons also have ~10 meters over smgs and can peek-shoot.

[@reachyourpinnaclenow]

Has there ever been a moment in Destiny history where someone wasn’t complaining? like a single moment ? “Nerf this , buff that” all I hear all day everyday

[@wethepeople8280]

Giant game of whack a mole. The meta is as balanced as it’s ever been. Pulses, smgs, hand cannons and sidearms all compete atm just fine. Special weapons are even all similar enough usage

[@TrueVanguard]

Go ahead and point me to the last nerf video I posted.

[@reachyourpinnaclenow]

@@TrueVanguard your content is pretty good 99% of the time so my comment was more towards the entire community & ur suggested changes to SMG’s in this video just hit my tipping point. I watch & pay attention a lot & this community is a bunch of cry babies. Maybe I should be on SaltDegreppos page wit his nerf div, nerf well ass

[@jormungandr4690]

Literally the same in every game btw.

[@reachyourpinnaclenow]

@@jormungandr4690 u prolly right but I really don’t play nothing else… lol

[@SYNTH_M4N]

The only thing I'm hoping for is that they turn all the adaptives into lightweights, but knowing bungie they'd be contrarians and do it the other way around like hand cannons. So many weapons which I'd like if they were just lightweight and not useless adaptives.

[@gubzs]

It would also help if we had powerful perks that were exclusive to long range weapons that can help them be more aggressive. Something like delayed healing on targets you shoot would help, or meaningful bullet penetration. A lot of the problem with long range weapons, and their engagements, is that there's no way to push a target that's wounded but far away.

[@SPEEDCORE70]

I think in the long term what would help crucible the most would be to rework range. tightening the gap between min and max range and making falloff more consistent across the board would enable other stats to gain importance. Ultimately I think the sandbox should strife towards weapon *feel* to be the deciding factor for what to use. It'd make weapon selection a much more personal choice for everyone, not just people trying to enjoy the mode while struggling against the meta

[@CarriesOnTop]

Ur spot on, sadly this game is run by a bunch of bots. That's literally what it comes down to, they can't see the full spectrum or even have foresight cause they themselves are bad 💯

[@durandol]

Variable range as a concept should go out, and everything will work much better. Just make gun archetypes shoot X distance before falloff and then all the other stats suddenly become FAR more important.

[@fotis3v480]

That's not happening with this dogshit engine tho.

[@zacharyrhodge]

It feels like we end up with this slow, team-shot focused meta whenever Bungie tries to make too many changes to make the game more accessible, like with vanilla D2. They need to just focus on what has worked and what Destiny's core audience has expressed is the most fun, i.e rewarding movement skill, and engaging weapon-focused combat

[@mcflu]

I imagine it happens to everyone's favorite gear at some point. I loved my ikelos 2.0 with dynamic and tap the trigger, used it all the time against shayura users etc, and I've been using ahamkara's and tripmines since D1. I feel like with everyone using my go to stuff it delutes the fun. At the same time I hate to see them then get nerfed to hell because of it all too.

[@MrAgill1970]

Adding back all the maps to 6v6 formats is the surest way to elevate other weapons outside of mid to long range monsters. Anomaly and Cauldron were two of my favorite maps, but I haven't seen them in months and I think that's criminal. As for SMG's, I think you're spot on. I have been and probably always will be a console player, and that puts me at a significant disadvantage when it comes to SMG's as I've always found them too difficult to control and was always amazed by the people who had no problem landing shots with them, even from mind boggling ranges. I think making more stability mean more (than currently), and less also meaning more, would go a long way toward making SMG's more of a choice for players like me, but also with more choice involved for the people who can currently dominate with them.

[@kumikohirasawa8126]

I love using SMG’s my very first roll of Shayura that I have is a legit 4/5 roll, if I had kill clip instead of celerity then it would had been perfect with a awesome 89 range stat. I love using it have over 2k kills with it and I can barely use it anymore simply because I feel like I can’t compete unless I use my old hung jury adept or my newly crafted disparity pulse. The maps are definitely playing a huge part in the smg problem. I wish there was a place where they can shine again.

[@spherexxx44]

I have Shayura's adept with 95 range stats, it dule with range I didn't know existed on SMG's, I think this is why it got nurfed, it's still a beast, the damage perks are Adrenaline/GTC, my kill clip adept range is 79 pretty good too but high stability, I Think also availability and popularity of the two featured SMG's play a huge roll here, it should be brought in line because we can't just murder every weapon type that's not HC or we'll end up in HC/SG/Snipers only meta again, I am really happy to see other weapon type shine, diversity is King.

[@danielbunch336]

The whole video was about smgs being overused(the 3 listed mainly) so I don't think having better smg maps would be a solution 🤦‍♂️

[@PunkRockCthulhu]

SMG main since Y1: I think in the grand scheme of things: a stability nerf isn't really going to affect the upper echelons of players much, if any, *especially* MnK players. Stability means (mostly) nothing on MnK, that's why you would see some of the better players have Multimach rolls with sub 15 stability in exchange for a massive amount of added range. If we really wanted to reign in the outlier SMGs, it might be better to reduce their range values a bit. Ikelos SMG v3 reaches just under 25m of range with enhanced rangefinder & enhanced shoot to loot, but can reach upwards of around 27.5m (give or take) with Killing Wind active. Tarrabah, on the other hand, is mostly hated because of Ravenous Beast and how easy it is to activate and use. Shayura's got hammered pretty heavily in my experience, haven't seen one of those in a good while, but that's anecdotal evidence, I suppose. TL;DR - Ikelos SMG v3 could definitely use some range tuning, Tarrabah could maybe see a small exotic perk nerf, otherwise the SMG family is pretty well balanced, imo.

[@bannedmann4469]

I don't think her gets that M&K has more base accuracy and bullet bending. And still don't have full recoil. Fundamental things need to chnage over there, or it needs to be disregarded when balancing.

[@ShadowNemesis575]

the thing is people all but refused to use SMGs in the beginning because the recoil was way too severe and we already have SMGs that people refuse to use because they have extremely low stability stats so I believe the stability stat is already important enough. Personally I think people just need to open their eyes to other close to mid range options to counter SMGs and obviously we need to snip the zoom on the outliers. I mean TV is the sidearm king, sidearms are still crazy strong, precision fusions are still really strong with the right rolls, and there are some insane autos and pulses that can be used in the midrange with enough practice in spacing and solid aim. If we're being honest its a good thing that hand cannons are taking a back seat because (and I've been saying this for years) they may have a higher crit requirement but ALL of the most picked hand cannons get picked most because they take EXTREMELY low effort to hit crits because of how generous aim assist cones are for them. People speculated on why for years then Bungie flat out told us how free it was to get headshots on them then they doubled down with the gutshot straight and slickdraw perks directly stating now you can prove your aim is as good as you say it is. I have seen 2 people use these perks and still slay while all the sweats avoid them like the plague because they know they aren't hitting jack without their aim assist cone bailing them out. I'm not gonna argue that there aren't unbalanced weapons in PvP because that'll never be true but people need to wake up: ALL of the top picked primaries (and specials) are stat monsters and EXTREMELY low effort to use, they always have been and always will be because so much is tied to everything that effects aim assist cones and the destiny community generally takes the path of least resistance. The other thing is the numbers on usage don't tell the full story. Vex is still a monster especially paired with rain of fire but it's not getting many picks, Rapid fire pulses are still monsters in the midrange and can challenge on current maps but people aren't using them, 3 burst sidearms have RIDICULOUS ttk at base and come out the box with good stat potential but are swept under the rug. The new DLC just dropped so I say we just give it time (and maybe a few highlight videos on how you dunk on out of band SMGs) and people will realize what's up.

[@lanceseaman88]

They did just nerf the range stat on SMGs making range past a certain point, pointless. This also brought the range on the outliers in line. So probably need a couple more weeks cause that change is still pretty new.

[@harbinger9446]

Now I’m not calling for other Smg’s to get a buff but one of the main problems with aggressive smg’s was their naturally low stability stat. Having to invest a whole bunch of stability stat increasing options just to make the weapon viable is a big issue. Ikelos became a top pick because it didn’t behave like other aggressives. It was actually fun to use and didn’t have to dedicate 80% of the weapon to the stability stat. It’s the same with aggressive sidearms too. Bungie literally had to copy and paste the feel of breachlight onto empirical evidence just to make it feel better to use. Outliers do need to be addressed but with that being said. It is very difficult to tune something that’s one change away from becoming really terrible. IMO the consistency at long ranges should be addressed.

[@DrApylon]

Personally, I have a different take on why SMGs are dominant over other close-range options. With the sidearm nerf your average effective sidearm range (barring a couple outliers) is around 20m, with hip fire being 10-12m. Most SMGs are touching 20m with basic range perks and effectively reaching about 25-26m, with outliers hitting that 30-32m before aim assist really tanks. Auto rifle base TTK is trash (with damage buffs its solid), shotguns maybe kill in that 8-10m range (depending on archetype and stats), fusions can hit around 18-20m reliably but require pre-charging, glaives can be good, but tend to be inconsistent with latency beyond 10-15m. Hand Cannons are decent in those ranges, but their lower (compared to SMGs) handling values and reliance on precision hits to make their TTKs competitive really hurt them as a "close-mid" weapon to pair with a scout or pulse. Not to mention, with a large increase in overall speed, movement tech and ability usage punishing lane-ing, you need something with high handling, decent range, easy to use and a competitive TTK. SMGs right now, alone, regardless of archetype, fulfill all of these roles wonderfully. There is a lack of other options that meet similar criteria and until pulse rifle dominance can be reliably countered, SMGs will remain the top pick simply because they fit a very specific role that this meta demands. Once pulse rifles get reigned in (it'll eventually happen) hand cannons will once again be top picks unless bungie buffs scout rifles or nerfs hand cannons through maps or balance changes.

[@S3Cs4uN8]

Pretty much what this guy said

[@radtacular2218]

We Gotta Talk About [whatever is currently at the top of the meta] in Destiny 2 PVP I mean both (i) that as a casual PVP onlooker, it feels like the above is the refrain we see over and over each time the meta shifts, (ii) that if you nerf the current outliers, there will just be others that ascend to being the new outliers, and the cycle will begin anew. I'm not sure what the answer is; I think (ii) is indicative of the difficulty/impossibility of truly balancing the PVP in a game like this. Maybe the answer is just to keep shifting the meta every few seasons.

[@Rob2512053]

I'd agree that tarabah and ikelos are outliers in the SMG category and I'd also agree that they can edge out sidearms and hand cannons having more range than the former and more forgiveness than the latter. My friend and I are still on team sidearm for close range though, we've been competing for Cryostheasia kills for weeks in trials and comp even going to duel for the title this week even though he has thousands of more kills on it than me.

[@ovenbaked_toes952]

Smg’s are currently running the meta, as of the time I’m commenting ikelos is at 1.8m kills and the new adept smg which came out this week is at 1.9m kills nearly 2m and the 3rd place is no time with 0.9m kills, each smg has over double the third places kills for the week and we’re only a few days in

[@aaronsmith4273]

Here is my balance change I would make: - increase the recoil of SMGs, especially 750s and 900s. Make stability matter more. - reduce the range of 180 Hand Canons, but make them 3 tap. This would still be a .75 TTK, but would need to have a max range of ~25 meters(ish).

[@riothegod1831]

are you dumb? 180 3 tap is .67 ttk

[@myonlyfriendtheend4958]

Aight so I'm throwing my hat in the ring and I'm going to tell you all a secret. Smgs have been busted forever every single version of ikeolos has been nuts in pve and pvp. Keep them that way. Start buffing struggling weapon types because smgs and sidearms are the only thing keeping the .67 ttk pulses from turning this into a bowling alley with all the lanes. People forgot about heros burden having like 19 zoom anteope having bonkers range with PRE NERF kill clip recluse being such a GOAT that it was the number 1 primary in pve FOR YEARS. I am biased I liked the auto meta galliard is still my favorite gun in all of d2 and I have godroll fatebringers pallys and exalted truth which holds a very special place in my heart. We need deadlier primaries if you want a better pvp environment with new maps that DONT TAKE OVER MINUTE TO REACH B FLAG GODDAMNIT. Tl;Dr better primaries better papa johns

[@patrickjackson1989]

Prolong engagement with target lock my fav smg. The maps are big but pic ur lanes and spot to make the smg or what ever weapon u want shine.

[@jrockz133t]

I have said this before, there's 2 types of 750 SMGs. High stability low handling, and high handling low stability. Most of the problem 750s are the high stability, and low stability ones like the Title or Cold Front aren't used. A blanket 750 nerf is not cool IMO, but rising the lower stability, but lowering the higher stability might be the play

[@jonithanpilgrim5491]

Yes thank you for calling out these (we have auto rifles at home) menaces. Literally making every mid/short range option obsolete.

[@BuffGenji]

I just think they need a range cap. Like no smg should have the same range as thorn or any HC without high range and/or rangefinder no matter what, yet they do. I do agree that stability needs to be more necessary on them too. I play on console, but peak HC range is now peak smg range as well, causing handcannons to get destroyed. And when challenging farther away, they simply use their sniper or pulse or scout or don’t challenge. By using close range or far range weapons and using their intended range only, they destroy. But they bleed too far into other ranges. That’s the main reason pulses are so powerful. They’re meant for mid-long range, yet can be used at scout ranges by just shooting an extra shot, which is affordable due to lots of flinch and not receiving much flinch(high stability on pulses generally) and they can be used up close pretty easily. Using a pulse or scout up close is honestly easier than a HC in my experience. And I use HC 10x more than pulses or scouts, yet try harder and do less well with them. That makes no sense

[@philosofrenzy]

I'm one of the weirdos who has always used Scout or Pulse + SMG or Sidearm. I prefer versatility because I hate seeing someone too far away to engage with my primary, and I hate dropping a green brick for enemies when I die. I definitely think SMGs could be made harder to keep on target at their max range. IKELOS has always been one of my favourites, and enhanced perks just makes it even more powerful.

[@strigonsan1519]

Targeted nerfs are needed, but not stability. It should be range, because stability plays a part in how the weapon feels. When they slightly nerfed sidearms, most people switched to smg's and the same thing will happen if you nerf stability. Most will stop using smgs and find something with range and stability.

[@wilkecoleman6334]

After finally scoring a next gen console (lol) I’ll say this… max fov has insane impact on stability! Smgs in particular feel so much better at range. Maybe as more and more get access to next gen smg usage could go up even more?! 🤯

[@titanicjack6744]

I’m on PS5 and My 2 favourite smg’s atm are a chambered, ricochet, feeding frenzy, target lock, stability mw prolonged engagement and a chambered, ricochet, zen moment, kill clip, range mw hero’s burden. Pair with peacekeepers to be really annoying 😂

[@ultimatelobato]

the smgs got a nerf too in the last sandbox changes, and i dont think they need another nerf, the only smg broken and needs a nerf its tarrabah, the other ones they are fine, in fact the only good ones are ikelos and sayahura, i dont know why when some thing is good people complain, sometimes i believe the people just want a hand cannon meta with a special with no other thing to compete. also side arms are pretty strong and better than the mayority of smgs, videos like this is why bungie nerfs things in to the grown to the point no one uses anymore

[@kameronatake4573]

I'd agree, but sadly the pulse rifle meta made me hate pulse rifles and more specifically NTTE so much that I'm super glad people are using smgs more now, it feels more like a gunfight and less like a turret sentry simulator with everyone shooting from 7 miles away with pulse rifles. I'd stopped playing for weeks because I was struggling to stay awake at my desk playing the game againts pulses

[@hutchservesgaming]

Here’s a idea. Bring all maps back. And buff other weapons And then tune shit from there

[@Sol_Unshadowed]

I do not agree about this. We've seen a much more lethal smgs previousely (pre nerf Multimach and Shayura). You may say that shotguns got a nerf, that's true, but smgs also got a lot of nerfs, to name some of them: zoom nerf for outliers (Shayura used to be 17, now 15), lightweights got their damage nerfed, damage falloff end was nerfd and in TWAB - 01/19/2023 smgs got damage falloff start nerf (6% may seem as a small number, but shayura went from 25.77 -> 24.04, this is a lot). I may understand statement about Tarrabah, this thing lives in league of its own. Aggresives have low stability. But touching precisions will kill them

[@swiggityswo9558]

4:37 that passive aggressive nod 💀

[@NightfallGemini]

ike103's also disgustingly good because it just gets Genesis for free, absolutely zero sacrifices to avoid what nukes smgs hardest; having to reload mid-fight

[@jessedee5696]

Syncopation and trespasser is one of the greatest combos

[@noturaveragedad]

Honestly I don’t play nearly as much as you and I play only on PS5, but I don’t see any weapons dominating crucible right now. Maybe a few less hand cannon kills and more pulses. I think the discrepancies in trials this weekend was probably more to do with the map and the game type.

[@HowdyHowdy_]

That Striker shutdown with the tripmine was crisp 👌

[@Triggerhappylol]

One thing I about sidearms compared to sidearms is that you need to focus way more to hit headshots with a sidearm then a smg. I think smgs should feel the same way also weed out the outliers

[@ribbz22]

I basically totally agree. I love SMGs but playing rumble in a more sweaty lobby my hand cannon is literally being trumped at anything just inside of it's absolute max range. I play mainly on PC with controller so I am assuming that ability to use SMGs outside of their intended range has crept into most HC ranges. Also, the top SMGs completely invalidate 2 auto-rifle archetypes at the moment.

[@papaspaulding]

I feel on console stability is already a big factor. I'll always go for stability over range on smg's every time as without that stability range means nothing if cant hit all your shots

[@provaricus627]

That’s what I’ve been saying for so long! Range means nothing if the gun keeps kicking you in the face

[@fotis3v480]

​@@provaricus627 same with hc ace of spades feels way too hard to use vs anything that isn't a hC in comparison to austringer with 83 stability being able to mostly duel everything. Console obviously and its not my fov i run 93.

[@dougcarey2233]

If Bungie nerfs SMG stability, could we wind up in an AR meta? Or at least 1 step away from an AR meta? I would be fine with that for a little while. I feel like ARs have been knocking at the proverbial door of the meta for a while now. Maybe all they need is for SMGs to get knocked down a peg. I have a couple rolls that I'd love to take into PVP, and Monster Carlo is my all time favorite D2 weapon.

[@VivoD]

I strongly suspect that 720rpm ARs are up next. Have you tried a good Sweet Sorrow? Or Chroma Rush with Kill Clip? They're absolute monsters within their ranges and the ammo capacity per mag is HUGE.

[@dougcarey2233]

@@VivoD 💯 agree. The 720s feel so good with fluted or arrowhead and accurized. The stereotypically low stability on 600s tend to keep them in check, even though they have slightly better range.

[@AtherD2]

i think the problem honestly is actually peacekeepers. Now im not calling for a nerf on such a niche exotic that forces you to main one gun, but when arguably the best class in pvp right now has the best exotic armor pairing for one of the strongest weapons in the crucible rn, its a no brainer. Of course there is some fault in smg outliers but the main problem is arc titan and void titan completely dominate the meta. IMO Shoulder charge has been one of the best movement abilities in the game with how short it takes to activate (icarus dash but without a cooldown) and if you pair that with the speed increases from pks with either an overshield all the time or knockout being a get out of jail free card, then you can see where this leads. It also doesnt help that stompees suffers a -50 AE penalty which is almost impossible to build into while exotics like pks give +40 or ophidians giving a +10... the way smgs are currently and the way titan is currently with the speed of shoulder charge, the strength of barricades, and the frequent melee desyncs, its no reason to not main pks and ikelos or tarrabah especially when they are the outliers. You could nerf both weapons and smgs would still be a force to be reckoned with regardless because the sandbox is set up to empower them the most. With that being said, i think the thing that all smgs could use still is some adjustments to the stability stat to make it feel more useful. Currently, as long as you hit 20 stability (any less gives you a flinch increase penalty), then most smgs feel fine because most people can control the blatant lack of recoil. That stat really should matter more. Smgs are just swiss army knives: easy to control, lots of range, good in the air, kills fast, and when a gun does it all it leaves no room for others to exploit its weaknesses

[@raverx9]

This sounds like a m&k problem with smgs more than an smg problem and like you said adding recoil is probably the only way to fix it. Stability might as well not even exist on m&k as a stat

[@Crazykinglear]

Targeted nerfs for overperforming weapons should always be considered, I think. Not "kill the weapon" type nerfs, but definitely bringing them in line while maintaining their own strengths. That said, I'm all for any meta that pushes hand cannons into a more middle of the pack option. I'm sick of HCs being the absolute go-to, and I don't care if they're the iconic destiny weapon. Like being able to roll comfortably with SMGs and Autos in PvP without getting absolutely steamrolled by HCs at all comparable ranges is so nice. Not a fan of any single weapon category being "meta" for the majority of players, I think the weapon diversity is always going to be a lot more enjoyable when you can bring the interesting and fun arsenal in the game without feeling like "ah, I'm letting my team down by not running Shotgun/Sniper + HC or something.

[@Frosty_0415]

a comment on your ranged smg differences on m&k and controller. i want to believe what you’re saying because i know you’ve put more time on both inputs in this game let alone more time with smgs. although, last week in trials, i was challenging almost every line of sight with ikelos smg and did have plenty of good duels outside of my smgs range with a controller. so i’m respectfully disagreeing, but there is a very fine line that i’m coming close to crossing and full on agreeing with your statement about m&ks ability to really reach out past ranges.. if that makes any sense?

[@xyry4148]

Completely agree with ur take on this! Is just a bunch of smgs that gets abused the rest is fine. My concern tho is and stays......connection and latency! If Bungie does not fix that aspect of PvP cross-ply nothing really matter at all!

[@starfirepr6318]

I think Bungie should balance little aggressive frame since already nerf Lightway with dmg nerf and precision with zoom nerf and overall range nerf for all smg with high ranges We know Tarrabah is going get nerf soon so I think also the frame need little balance

[@lionheartz1337]

This is a hot take for sure but the big reason smgs dumpster hand cannons is flinch. It's too much flinch at too high a rof I would go as far as you can in minimizing smg flinch this would allow more for anyone in the duel against smgs and create this paradigm where if you want high rof flinch you choose autos if you want mobility and ttk you choose smgs

[@sdfE36]

thank you for bringing up SMGs. they're a freaking menace on PC. their TTKs and bullet magnetism are so forgiving you get out-ranged by them well outside their optimal fall off. i've been beaned 30m out by an ikelos SMG with barely any drop in its optimal ttk, which brings me to what I think the needed nerf is. SMGs should reach maximum damage fall off way sooner, and bring their max falloff down a couple of meters. they need to operate in that 19-22m range effectively in order to have a place, but they're way too effective up to 32m

[@777ElZorro]

I think most of us would see less SMGs if not for SBMM. If there wasn’t SBMM you’d see more variety due to different variety in player you’re matching.

[@cfreeses]

I mained void warlock, with blink, and manticore sniper this week in trials. It is so much fun to blink, shoot someone, and then blink to the side while shooting someone. I recommend trying it lol

[@jhan-ducduclos8086]

I think another issue we are seeing is the shift in aspects such as the nerfs to a number of the OHK special weapons like fusions and shotguns. Previously in years prior an SMG or sidearm were rarely seen because special ammo was prevalent, fusions could comfortably OHK above 20-25m, shotguns were easy clean up with a hand cannon with their 8m base range, high swap speed with OG quickdraw, and overall consistency beyond 8m with their spread if following up an initial HC shot. We also had nerfs to stompeez, which allowed people to close the gap rapidly for no drawbacks, but it is much less prevalent and therefore not supplementing something like a shotgun closing the distance. I do agree that the changes to the map rotation, buffs to longer range weapons like pulses and scouts, and nerfs to perks like rangefinder have driven shifts in the meta to the more close and long range weapons. But I disagree with general nerfs to archetypes and think the outliers should either be normalized or sidearms brought into SMG ranges and autos and HC’s bumped ever so slightly. Nerfing the outliers only steers players further away from a second primary as these help combat players rushing with a special weapon.

[@S3Cs4uN8]

You also need to keep in mind the reason why those weapons are outliers if you plan to target nerf them, if the reason they've become some prevalent isn't even due to the gun itself but a shift in some other part of the metagame or sandbox then nerfing them anyway is likely just going to cause another such jump to another outlier post-nerf.

[@oliverbanton4738]

My adept shayuras wrath has a near highest possible range stat and tap the trigger and dynamic sway reduction, I am PREPARED for any stab nerfs

[@Wilcifer]

As a PK main for the last few years, these are all very valid and accurate points.

[@Electric.Spaghetti.Neon.Studio]

It would never happen, but honestly I feel like the sandbox would be much better off if they just removed Rangefinder from the game. It’s been an “only choice” or BIS pick for so so so many weapons, and caused just as many issues. I feel like Bungie just shoots themselves in the foot. They spend so much time tweaking the balance of each weapon archetype to make sure it’s firmly in its intended optimal range, then as soon as there’s a outlier with 0.1x more zoom, people put Acc rounds and Rangefinder on it and suddenly it’s a huge annoyance in PvP. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

[@el_rooneyo]

Great video tv - I’ve been a sidearm guy for years, but I’ve recently switched to SMGs and I’m amazed by how far Ikelos can reach. I don’t have tarrabah but see it regularly in my lobbies and it feel oppressive. I agree, some targeted nerfs to these weapons (alongside a better map rotation) makes sense to me! 😊

[@1ceClimber]

Is there a particular reason you aren't just picking up a copy of Tarrabah at the monument of lost light, so you can try it our for yourself?

[@el_rooneyo]

@@1ceClimber I play solo so don’t raid! I used to raid all the time in D1 and had a dedicated clan etc until last year, but decided to step away from it to help my mental health / relationship. But I still love the game! Tbf I get killed twice as much by ikelos than Tarrabah, but it can be frustrating when someone is running a lobby with it and you die instantly to ravenous beast lol

[@1ceClimber]

@@el_rooneyoNo, if I recall there is no other way of getting Tarrabah except for just visiting the monument of lost light over at the tower and just buying it from the exotic archive. There's no need to raid, since the raid you get it from has been vaulted for years at this point. You can find the monument between the two vault terminals. Alongside Tarrabah, you can pick up quite a few other thing that used to be raid exclusive.

[@el_rooneyo]

@@1ceClimber you can get it, but you need spoils of conquest from any raid to purchase it unfortunately!

[@1ceClimber]

@@el_rooneyo Oh, sorry. I've never actually had any need to visit it since i got all of the drops from the raids back in the days. My apologies for the oversight in that case! Best of luck improving your SMG game, i myself am very poor at using that weapon class haha.

[@xBlackiez]

SMGs dont cause flinch to other weapons, so you're often having to shoot through flinch to win duels against HCs. They're balanced rn.

[@KeanuChrist]

I suck at Crucible and I definitely get the most elims when I use an SMG, especially for quick swapping from Pulse.

[@vonhellsing6406]

Then again when you think about it given how inconsistent shotgun can be I don't blame them for using an SMG for close-quarter combat. What I don't understand is the pvp community-at-large always bitching and complaining about everything that can outmatch a hand Cannon. The only reason why they're upset about pulse rifles challenging Lanes because they can't run around like they do in other FPSs. It's much more tactical now, you can't just shut off your brain and run around like it's call of duty.

[@ultimatelobato]

yep, i believe people only want to see hand cannons in the pvp with nothing else to compete

[@Jenn-lq9yu]

I think a small nerf to SMGs as well as a buff to Hand Cannons would be optimal. Hand Cannons feel extremely bad in the current meta, as they occupy a space where literally every other option is better than them at nearly any range. Pulses have nearly double the range, while having dramatically better TTK and more forgiving 3 taps or even 2 taps with 360s. By contrast, the most popular Hand Cannons, 140 RPMs are sitting at a point where you basically need all 3 headshots unless someone is literally a minimum Resilience Guardian and have substantially worse range. Scout Rifles have the same TTK while literally being able to cross map effectively from any range. Even Auto Rifles have better range than Hand Cannons and dramatically better TTKs. Add to that, that SMGs now occupy roughly the same optimal range as Hand Cannons, and they've just hit a really bad space in the meta. Having a 1 second TTK weapon in the same range category as literally the fastest TTK automatic weapon in the game just feels extremely bad. Personally, I think that either Hand Cannons need a bump in their max range, or they need their damage value restored back to Shadowkeep levels (Not both, mind you because then we just end up in a Shadowkeep meta again where 120 Hand Cannons are the only thing anyone's using). Either solution I think would help quite a bit, but personally I think the bump in their damage would make for a more interesting change, as it would give them a niche of having more forgiving 3 taps than a lot of the other weapon classes. Back in Shadowkeep, 140s were hitting 80 to the head without buffs, enabling 2 heads 1 body without buffs and 1 head 2 bodies with buffs, and 120s were hitting 96, enabling 1 head 2 bodies without buffs, or a 2 tap with headshots with buffs. While that may sound insane, 360 RPM Pulses can actually 2 tap right now without buffs if you land all headshots, as each round in a 360's burst does 38 damage, enabling 216 damage in 2 bursts if all rounds land as headshots. Mind you, 360 RPM Pulses are the same relative RPM as a 120 hand cannon and have dramatically better range.

[@shr00m44]

I've been using SMGs religiously in PvP for years. YEARS. Since Forsaken! Finally they're meta, and now I'm afraid they're gonna get nerfed along with my beloved Peacekeepers...

[@Porsche911RSR-0]

I think smgs are VERY strong right now and like you said the ouliers need to be dealt with. Bungie already stated that Tarrabah is getting a zoom nerf which is great, but even the smgs at 15 zoom are dominant like shayura's, submission, multimach or ikelos with rangefinder. Ikelos even without rangefinder is disgusting. Smgs have been power crept beyond belief at this point due to the outliers which make other smgs feel useless. The best thing Bungie can do is nerf the outliers or like you said make stability matter more. I would hate to see smgs go back to where they were years ago with most having 13 zoom, but something needs to be done to reel them in.

[@xatar6046]

i agree with almost everything but it seems like our observation on the mnk stuff is vastly different. Atleast 40% of my lobby on PC use a controller and it feels awful to play against sometimes even i consider going back to the sticks which i did for a short 1v1 yesterday. While MNK should be superior considering you can use the whole hand to aim it currently just doesnt feel like it. Maybe its an observation only i have or maybe i am missing a key thing like snipers being popular etc etc

[@Woahjusttakeiteasyman69]

I am in firm agreement. I play MnK strictly and Trials all weekend was nothing but SMGs, Snipers, and controllers guiding their aim. While I do agree that MnK gets to engage at longer ranges due to stability not being as much a hindrance since we can control it with our hand/arm, when you aren't in that extended range, you just get melted by people on controller who literally cannot miss a shot. Very frustrating to play against.

[@raverx9]

What?smg are a lot worse to use on controller atleast on console for the simple fact that there's actual recoil so all the aim assist in the world isn't going to help if your reticle is jumping up and down/side to side so much on controller 10-15 meters is the max range you can effectively kill some with an smg with headshots on PC it's double that

[@Hypo11111]

Well articulated as always TV. Great video and great suggested changes to bring it back in! Agree with your assessment of MnK vs controller for tracking in close vs long ranges. Sticky controllers help tracking up close and not so much at a distance, but damn if you’re not good tracking with mouse up close, that stickiness looks nice when you see controller players. But it is nice to hit ranged shots on MnK with smg. 😊

[@Dredguno]

Some smgs are substantially better than the rest of smgs, and Bungie either needs to bring the top outliers down, or bring the bad SMGs up to smgs like shayuras (i.e. make the base zoom 15 for smgs)

[@Hofey]

Over the past year majority of the outliers were tuned and the weakest smgs were slightly buffed. Smgs weren’t really an issue outside of the tarrabah at that point imo. You know bungie though they go “hey! Noticed your favorite smgs were nerfed for good reason but we are adding the ikelos smg just as good if not better than the smgs we just nerfed”

[@Hofey]

Bungie does stuff like this time and time again. Lemme nerf this weapon Bc it is a lil strong but next season we are adding a replacement that we know is overtuned and will need a nerf 🤓

[@MrAaron021]

Cool guy made a great video about handcannons and how they suffer because of ^ and other things too.

[@Dan0w93]

I think yeah rather than nerfing all smgs yeah they need to make it less easy to use so having stability is more prominent than range, as a controller user myself I always aim for a bit of stability but with so many good damage and or range perks you can be a bit cheekier and go for them instead of stability

[@eri_sister_of_aerial]

900 Lightweights and adaptives are the worst in the weapon class in terms of dropoff and overall TTKs. Precision Frames and Aggressive Frames perform very well. While there is power creep, id say that even though SMGs are up close and personal, they require LARGE amounts of accuracy to obtain optimal ttk. Meanwhile pulses have generally faster optimal TTKs as a whole weapon class for longer range weapons with high ease of use. High Impact Pulses 0.67 you CONSISTENTLY in PvP meanwhile SMGs need good weapon tracking due to them being miniature auto rifles

[@trikotine358]

Drop stability and maybe even mag size.

[@live4w0lf51]

As much as I love Tarrabah and shayura’s with about +5k kills, out of bounds is my favorite SMG to use. The gun just feels so go to play with especially being a lightweight. But I do feel the same way TV does, there are outliers and could use some adjustments, especially our dear friend the ikelos smg

[@N.O.A_YT]

I love my Out of Bounds as well, mine comes with 3 stats in each collurm. Small bore, lightmag, dynamic sway, moving target, pulsemonitor, range finder, kill clip and under over. TOok me 60 weapon focusing to get that perfect roll and I love it.

[@live4w0lf51]

Aye glad to hear. Lucked out and got a max range when it first came out and haven’t left my inventory since. Haven’t tried to focus it due to low mats but I’ll definitely keep an eye out for that god roll for both pvp and pve

[@xchirs_]

I love that you made a comment about the input differences and backed it up with your own gameplay on both inputs. I play both as well on Xbox and PC. SMG ranges are much farther on MnK if you know how to properly control recoil. Even in PvE. I adjust my loadouts slightly sometimes depending on if I’m playing on Xbox or PC. It’s the difference of me using Funnelweb and Reckless Oracle for Overload champs. Lol great video!

[@linkdogdog98]

Just found your whiskey channel and love it!

[@TrueVanguard]

Thanks for checking it out!

[@DerultimativeOzzy]

I believe what would to an extend reshuffle the overall balancing of the crucible , would be some targeted buffs to auto rifles. Not neccessarly in their ease of use department or range but either their lethality or dueling potential. Somewhere between SMG and Pulse Rifle ranges are Handcannons and Auto Rifles and right there should Auto Rifles be stronger and a true dominant force compared to Pulses and SMGs. They should challenge smgs when they're trying to hit their peak ranges but also scare and punish pulse rifles for being a little too close to their targets or letting you get a little too close via a flank. Yes, handcannons exist and are fairly strong and well balanced but their strenght lies in being a jack of all traits master of none high burst damage weapon that can be used to peek shoot or hit shots mid air. Autos should be the appropriate counter part within that range band for guns that require a steady stream of well traced bullets. They should be roughly equally relevant in power and be proper counter parts to each other. What the HCs can't do, the ARs should cover, but what the ARs can't do, HCs will fix.

[@TheJcamp1771]

The stability nerf should only affect M n K. SMGs are solid on controller but your proposed nerfs to stability would dramatically hurt controller players and that shouldn’t happen. Combine that with the fact we are in a LANING meta your effectively telling people to use pulse rifles more. I don’t think nerfs are the answer. Mostly we need buffs to aggressive play styles like handcannon and shotgun so people stop laning as much

[@nevetodagle]

Hand Cannon meta is the healthiest meta for the game imo, all-in-all, the ttk should be raised across the board.

[@jonak.loves.u]

hand cannons still have a good 15 meters on smg’s. i think if all 140’s were changed back to 150’s then hand cannons would actually be used, or make 140’s only have to hit 2 crits and one body. hitting 3 perfect crits for a .87 at a range where pulses can out duel and ttk you is really frustrating to use and even then pulses get a good 10-15 meters on hand cannons too

[@gbmistake3776]

15 metres? Nah, bud. More like 6/7 on average. One slide while gunning someone is enough to get into optimal range and melt them.

[@walkinghazards7528]

As long as out of bounds, pizzicato and the like get left alone, I don't care. Destiny PvP has been in a handcannon meta for a loooong time and this pulse meta, whilst annoying for many, is at least *different*, and I've still been able to drop consistent 2-3.0s with OoB, though I do enjoy Tarrabah and Ikelos too. I've been a SMG main in PvP for years now, and I really hope (if they're going to) that they nerf *specific* SMGs, not the entire weapon type. But also, Destiny PvPer try not to hype up handcannon challenge: Impossible Difficulty. Every time lol.

[@jeremyjohnson9585]

Man, I don't know. The only smgs that even hold a candle against my Drang(original, not baroque. I missed that season) are the ikelos v3 and of course Tarrabah. I'm on controller, though, so it might be different for MnK.

[@ShaoShaoMienshao]

Thank you so much for advocating for PC balance in your videos. I love watching your content for your professionalism and insights, but there's always this underlying feeling in my head of "Well he plays controller, right? Metas are slightly different..." But hearing how you totally agree that SMGs are absurd on M&K really let me let out a sigh of relief. While we're at it, can we talk about how weird it is that SMGs are borderline OP on M&K, and yet somehow Auto Rifles all feel like garbage? Why is this?

[@kenpachi2607]

Pulses catering to passive play is why I use 450 and 540 pulses. Especially 540s. It allows me to cater to my faster play style, while still enjoying my favorite weapon type and not playing a style people hate. I love smgs, but ikelos and tarrabah are too dominant. Smgs are balanced, it's just those two.

[@HaYeetBruh69]

It doesn’t combat anyone with a sense of recoil control nerfing stability but it would keep them op in high elo