"We Learn it Too Late!" - How Society Makes Us Lost, Addicted & Mentally Ill | Jonathan Haidt

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Today’s episode is about a topic that I am truly passionate about - the introduction of social media and smartphones into all aspects of our lives - and what impact this is having on us individually, collectively and, perhaps most urgently, what impact is this having on our children.
Jonathan Haidt is arguably one of the worlds’ most eminent psychologists. He is a Professor of Ethical Leadership at New York University’s Stern School of Business and the author of 4 best-selling books, including his latest ‘The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness’
In this episode, Jonathan and I explore how the fundamental differences between online and real-world interactions are affecting young people's social, emotional and cognitive development. We discuss why girls face unique risks on social media, from damaged relationships and reputations to harassment, and how gaming and pornography are shaping boys' expectations of relationships.
Jonathan also shares some eye-opening data about the link between a decline in teen mental health and the widespread adoption of smartphones and social media. He emphasises the need for collective action to create healthier norms around technology use, both at home and in schools.
We dive into practical strategies for parents, including setting clear boundaries and prioritising hobbies and family time. Our conversation also touches on the challenges of navigating technology use in a world where the pace of change has been so fast.
Jonathan remains optimistic that we're nearing a tipping point and outlines four key norms we can all adopt with our children-even if they’re already dependent on their phones throughout the day.
We also discuss in detail what we believe schools could be doing to help their students have less screen time and the importance of collaborating with other families to support healthier habits.
As a parent and a doctor, I'm deeply concerned about the mental health crisis facing our children and young people. But if, as a society, we can come together to raise awareness and take purposeful action, we can create a healthier future for the next generation.
I think this is one of the most important conversations that I have ever had on my podcast. Jonathan and I both believe that the rewiring of our children’s brains to be one of the most urgent societal harms that needs addressing. My hope is that you find this conversation eye opening, enlightening and thought provoking - and I very much hope it prompts you to take action.
#feelbetterlivemore
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Jonathan’s book:
The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness amzn.to/4aCHQf4
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[@DrChatterjeeRangan]

Looking for shorter clips or content? Check out my @DrChatterjeeClips channel

[@EBSJones4]

A lot of people are surprised that I don't have a smartphone, but I tell them that I'm Internet-addicted and that it takes me half an hour to switch my computers off in the evening and then they shut up. Either I go screen-free when I leave my home (and office, as I work from home) or I talk to other people. Give me the Internet and I'm away with the fairies. It's too tempting. For me, the Internet is a wonderful thing, especially having grown up in a rural area with not much to do.

[@janinekay]

agreed! Ditch the smartphone! Liberation!! there’s not many of us out there … but I think time will tell !!

[@gwendolinehughes8310]

I'm a grandparent but I am very streetwise and automatically keep upto date. I thought this podcast was excellent and thought of sharing it with my family... Daughters/son in laws. The first thing that came to mind was 1. They won't have time to listen. 2. They will get bored because it is a long one 🤔 3. They will think grandma is old fashioned and therefore doesn't understand the future thus the need ect. ( I will share it with them anyway and then the choice is there's.) My grandson has been diagnosed with autism and his behaviour is causing a great deal of stress for the family for it can be difficult to distinguish between whether it is autism or just naughtiness. He spends a lot of time using his mother's phone and they do use it as a tool sometimes to get him to do what is expected of him. Personally I do not agree with this but say nothing. I've seen him deteriorate somewhat over a year involving very bad behaviour at school also. He is only six years old and I fear for his longterm prospects. Any comment on my part is almost dealt with by frustration and almost anger from my daughter. She has made comments which tell me she thinks I do not understand... Quite the opposite because I fully understand her problems. I think people just do not want to listen and until it genuinely affects them they will remain closed down to suggestions.

[@SLefd]

I'm 53, have two older brothers. The youngest and his wife, both kind and hard working, somewhat educated people in a lazy small Scandi town, have been among the terribly "blind", irresponsible screen-parents. They've struggled with limiting not only screens and screen time, but with handling what I thought was normal, necessary parenting in general. They're not much worse than the average, I know. I admire you as grandmother that you're able to be there for your family, that you manage to stop mentioning or suggesting stuff when you see it doesn't work. Our mom who's dead now felt so tortured by it all she had to step back and go almost no contact (she had her own issues in general). Me, also certainly with my issues, also walked away after some years. Couldn't sit there and just watch things. I felt like someone complicit in a crime on a general basis, smiling and nodding. I'm after all just an aunt and a sibling though, and have never at all felt close to my brother anyway.

[@user-il6oz8gb1y]

Yea share this and als9 look into ,keto,carnivore it cures autistic,deppretion,anxiety, autoimmune, alsorts ir seems yiur tapped in to wanting to help with changing society like me don't stop share all these type podcasts and definitely look into carnivore, keto. I'm watching Dr Anothony chattee and thers loads more doctors teaching about food industry is making us ill .xx

[@user-il6oz8gb1y]

It's the food ,sugar,wheat,even vegetables ate toxic its making him ill

[@bekahviolet817]

I can definitely attest as an elder gen zer (27) who works in corporate America my younger gen z coworkers (22-25) don’t have social skills. They have a hard time with eye contact and they just seem anxious. I got my iPod touch at like 15 or 16 and then my first iPhone at 17. My mom was very strict with me using instagram and facebook because she saw the bullying that was happening at her middle school (she was a vice principal). I think if I had access to social media in middle school with the way it is now I would be a mess. I definitely need to cut back on my social media usage. I like listening to podcasts and KZbin videos at work while I’m doing my job, but then I get home and scroll on my phone, then I complain I don’t have time for the hobbies I like to do. This was a very insightful episode!

[@courtneym9267]

It is great that you recognize it early and are conscious of it throughout the day. You have an advantage.

[@bekahviolet817]

​@@eej902 I assure you, there was no intention of stereotyping on my part. In fact, my younger coworkers and I engage in lively discussions about the generational differences in technology and trends, despite our slight age difference. My Master’s Degree in Industrial/Organizational Psychology, a published chapter in a social psychology textbook, and my PHR certification, have always driven me to foster understanding rather than division. You should consider the possibility that your reaction to my comment may be more reflective of how you feel about yourself rather than my comment itself. :)

[@bekahviolet817]

@@eej902 lol

[@debbiebutchart7222]

I am 55, and I can relate to the last part of your comment (like to listen to podcasts, but waste time scrolling when I could be doing something else). I’m so glad there wasn’t social media when I was a kid in the 70s and early 80s. I feel for younger folks these days. I see why there is so much anxiety and depression. 😞

[@Love-more..]

If it wasnt for the fact that I need an iPhone for work I would use a flip phone .. I think this might have just caused me to get a flip phone as a main phone line and only use the iPhone at work

[@vienneblomgren6604]

And people don't say goodbye 😔 your chatting and they're just gone...off. No, talk to you later, have a nice day, its just over. Kids text happy birthday, happy mother's day 😮 how shallow we live now. Hate this so much. I grew up in 1957 so sure you can understand.

[@malunachow]

💞

[@mattng4707]

Its practice and people are not having enough practice of simple conversing

[@EBSJones4]

I've got an 82-year-old German aunt who is just the same. I'm saying goodbye and then I realise I'm talking to myself.

[@fionasheppard2305]

As a School Nurse (high school) I see the issues that phone addiction is having on young people. I talk to boys on the daily who are spending 6+ hours on social media. I spend time with them challenging them and asking what they think they are getting out of it, they can't tell me. I won't let my own children have a phone until at least 16. Jonathan you are awesome - this is possibly one of the most important topics parents should be concerned about.

[@j333z]

I'm 39 and I am so tired of working with children who don't answer questions when I ask as a teacher. I blame screens. They don't play the same or aren't as social. I have been teaching for 22 years and see the difference. Its mostly boys that game are worse at responding than my other students. Their parents tell me. People lok at their phone walking like zombies. I hope something changes.

[@lindaelarde2692]

I was in high school education for the past 23 years and it was very quiet when phones are the attentional black hole. My most frequent conversation with students was about increasing awareness and intentionality around their phone usage. I could activate their teen rebelliousness by revealing the control that algoriths exert over them. I would ask them "do you want to be the puppet master...or the puppet?" They often reacted to that notion with the "light bulb expression"...and hell no!!

[@adamwilliams9657]

I think we may really be underestimating how much of an impact it is having on people in their 30's and 40's I have had to fight my phone to have control of my focus and executive control and see a lot of other people around me having major issues as well with anxiety, depression and motivation etc.

[@elisenieuwe4649]

Helicopter parenting in the US and Canada is absolutely insane. These people would get an heart attack if they knew how I grew up. I'm only 36. It's normal for children to go outside and play. It's normal for young children to ride their bike to school alone or with some friends. It's normal for them to walk around the neighbourhood. It should be.

[@67oldcoach]

I worked in the Public Service in Australia where we were required to interpret and implement legislation in a particular area. It was complex, often ‘grey’ and highly impactful on our clients lives. Before the smart phone the morning tea room was full of discussions and shared stories about cases we were working on. This was highly helpful in multiple ways. One day, after the smart phone came and at that time the department was taking on contract workers, mainly young (20’s and 30’s) and I walked into the morning tea room. It was silent. All heads bowed looking at phones. I was shocked! And instantly saddened. SO much was lost.. sharing experiences with difficult cases, knowledge and general comradery, etc, etc, etc.

[@jehouse61]

Regarding schools and screens, sadly in US schools, hardly any schools use hard copy textbooks anymore. It makes it impossible to not have screens, both in the classroom and for homework. This was done intentionally to make schools purchase massive numbers of computers, and it's virtually impossible to make that reversal now.

[@chiffre-nummer8475]

So sad to see how the system is doing it by making technologies as a 100% requirement, especially in preschool, school and college.

[@elisenieuwe4649]

I',m 36 and social media and browser usage has had a detrimental effect on my capacity to focus and remember. I started playing video games and MMO's over 18 years ago. I didn't had any problems at all. It wasn't until years ater when I started to browse a lot, watch video's and pictures and read forums that my brain went backwards.

[@Prodigalson55]

We’ve never been more connected and yet disconnected

[@tbd407]

This is flat-out scary when you realize that these kids are going to be the future...!

[@chiffre-nummer8475]

Me as a sibling and aunt mention this all the time. I tried so often to give my family alternatives and motivate them to find some ... They used this too to exclude me from family gatherings ... I sense there is almost the same outcome like other addictions bring up in people. I do my best to be a good example to do more social than meds, especially when children are involved. Thank you to bring up this topic and titling the content this way.🙏🏼👍🏼 Already shared and still listening to it. Greetings and thanks from Germany.

[@createone100]

I gave up on a 40-year friendship, because I was in the midst of a very dreadful emotional shock, and only received a ‘So sorry 😢’ via text message. My heart was howling, and I needed to hear and see my erstwhile friend. I was shocked by the carelessness and detachment of the response. I just cannot come back from that. So glad that other friends were much more helpful and kind, and actually called or met me in person.

[@ozarkcyn1]

Same thing happened to me but I had no other support.

[@createone100]

@@ozarkcyn1 So sorry we shared this experience. It is so painful. But also empowering when we can step away from what doesn’t serve us anymore. I sure hope you’ve found the good ones. They are out there, but rare. 💕

[@FEEBO2025]

It's appalling to see 95% of young adults (in Philly) walking down the street staring at their phones. They seem to be embarrassed to simply walk past someone and need to stare at a screen instead. 😵‍💫

[@punyashloka4946]

Phones are much more safer than humans, the amount of harm humans do to you, a smartphone don't do that.

[@jessegee179]

I put my phone away at work. Work is my escape 😂

[@Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaz]

❤❤❤Watching you from Paris. Excellent topic ! Excellent guest :very clear to understand ( am a primary school teacher in Paris), I ve learnt a lot. This podcast has been so useful that I will do my best to translate the main points to my kids, family and to my pupils. In general in France phones are not allowed. At least in the schools that I know… Very grateful for your work. But don’t be surprised and afraid to be slurred .

[@EcomCarl]

his insights on the impact of technology on mental health are eye-opening. It's crucial for us and communities to foster real-world interactions that nurture mental well-being and genuine connections. 🌱

[@nataliepower7464]

It is all quite sad and disturbing. 😔

[@MichiganPeatMoss]

So many great points - especially children with "roots" and being grounded with a stable community.

[@rickloader4857]

Another fantastic conversation, it's really scary how attached to our devices we are becoming. Really hope I can guide my kids to have an healthy relationship with them as they get older.

[@lisav6583]

I worked in a school in New York City that was phone free- hands down best decision. I wish parents would push for change. My school won’t go phone free because parents refuse.

[@Gonegonegone977]

(Watching this on my phone guys)😂😂😂

[@chiffre-nummer8475]

How old are you and what's the content?

[@jt.8144]

..good. Now pay attention .

[@John_F898]

Very unoriginal comment

[@glowpony]

So? Listen to the content.It's not about picking up a phone to listen to an interview. It's about phone addiction and child developmental issues filtering into adulthood.

[@lindaelarde2692]

Me too! We all benefit from some of the good stuff...but I'm 65 years old...that's the crux of it all. I know how to talk to real humans...and listen...body language and all.

[@najmchoudhry7625]

What a conversation! It is so hard to parent and I related so much to Dr Chatterjee…. Trying to be good parents in a school and society where everything that is against us

[@SLefd]

I'm 53, and I agree with him that there's no point in "blaming" the parents - that's not the way to go. Still, there are certainly some mind blowing differences in the way people perceive these things, and have been all the way. I myself never wanted children. I have struggled, in a bit of shock and awe through these digital years, to understand how any competent parent could feel and think *anything* like Haidt says he did early on regarding screens & kids. "Wow, this could be fantastic for my 2 year old's brain development! Probably better than bricks!" ? I'm sorry guys - I and a few others always felt a powerful, unstoppable instinctive reaction in the other direction. Although yes it's better to look forward now, I can assure you many of us are left pretty messed up humiliated and angry by all the bad treatment we got for being clear eyed. It seemed like a no-brainer to me that both small and older children probably should be kept safely away from all screens as much as possible - unless under strict supervision on strict time limits, for useful learning of stuff. TV was already too much on kids as it were. Way too much, actually. To this day I just don't get how parents come as insensitive, irrational and in denial in touch with their precious, beloved offspring - those pearls they say they will take bullets for and all - as they so often do.

[@TeaRose9]

So much this!!

[@createone100]

I could not agree with you more! I am a retired (thank goodness!) teacher. 18 years ago, I talked to my colleagues about the need to not allow cell phones in schools. Even flip phones were becoming a class discipline problem. I was essentially scoffed at for ‘not realizing their potential’ and to just ‘have students hand in their phones at the beginning of class’. No support from admin for a school-wide policy, and loads of disagreement among staff. If you saw the problems you were made to feel like a Luddite. This has always ticked me off, because, as you say, some of us saw the many problems which would develop, with crystal clarity. (As an aside, I read Alvin Toffler and Frank Feather, and was unable to shout with optimism about the future of ‘high-tech/high-touch’. A small knowledge of human behaviour and the rapid advancements of technology should have had sensible people seriously questioning these self-styled ‘futurists’.

[@ambroseigoche3155]

So many relatable points some of us have seen and experienced. Great talk.

[@LONDONIA2072]

Thank you for a very insightful and fascinating podcast. As a mother of a 27 year old I feel we were lucky to escape most of the iPhone addiction. I’m now going to cut back on mine! I find social media depressing and highly addictive, I feel much better when I just don’t go near it…

[@ST-pp3fk]

Such important information. Thank you so much to both of you.

[@melvaughn29]

I teach middle and senior school and EVERYTHING is online. Tests, exams, assignments are all typed. Students read from their devices too. It's a tech school and they all have phones, ipads, laptops. Zero learning. Half of the students are playing games and shopping while I'm teaching. No one can follow simple instructions anymore because they aren't even 'listening'. It's pretty bad. When these students go to University, they can barely write a coherent sentence!

[@mikaellind2589]

This was lovely, what an interesting and illuminating conversation! I don't agree with everything Jonathan says, but he does make some great points that need to be discussed.

[@taria4718]

Ranjan I absolutely love all your podcasts and the way you interview is just so unique. This podcast was one of the best I’ve heard in the recent times. Thank you 🙏 Tari

[@Robescocia]

Brilliant guest extremely interesting subject. Well done Dr Chatterjee.

[@kj5250]

This was really interesting Thankyou

[@EBSJones4]

In Germany, children go to school from the age of 6 and within six months to a year, they are going to school by themselves: by public transport, scooter or bike or on foot.

[@messue428]

Thank you for this much needed conversation Dr. Chattergee.

[@sdmbusiness]

Brilliant conversation and time appropriate. Thank you both!

[@alrightsky]

The note about kids wanting to communicate via text - resonates with me, a millennial. However, it's not due to the ability to edit - but, because I don't feel as stressed when typing something vs when having to talk and having someone stare at me while they wait for me to make sense of the thoughts in my head. 😅 Probably has more to do with anxiety than anything else though.

[@createone100]

But not having face-to-face conversations just increases that anxiety.

[@rachelwesterman1223]

I'm 41 and didn't get a smartphone until I was 28. I speak to people more now because I've always hated face to face interactions.

[@aRmourstaR.]

Amazing content!!! Highlighted some key major points and addressed directly! Love it!!! Great communication, we can all learn from this and apply literallyto our own lives. Thabk you guys so much! Such salt bae style golden layered food for thought 😉

[@Dotdiversity55]

Absolutely right😮😮

[@bobalobba]

I think a good thing for parents to teach their children is understanding human behaviour. Social media is an experiment for human behaviour, as the algorithms are set up take you down whatever path your behaviour wants. If you teach your children about this, they then get to understand why other people behave the way they do and will stop blaming themselves for the problems they face

[@SuperQdaddy]

The essence of life is interacting with friends and strangers...not email or texting

[@user-zd5cz4hy6z]

Went for vacation in my Country in the Philippines. I was shocked when my Aunti saids the Kids need Cellphone for the School because after Covid the Teachers are Sendung them the Homework theough Phones and they also need a Cellphone to Study which made me Confused . I didn't Understand how it went far from that because Mind you when the Kids are not in Class what they do are Scrolling ro Social Media watching Videos on Tiktok.. I asked them So how about the Kids that came feom Poor Familien that can even afford to give thier Kids Weekly allowance for school now they need to Pay Internet and buy Smartphones for thier Elementary Students.

[@enviromad]

i went off grid in 2007 and missed the boat, i don't use a phone for internet

[@OGillo2001]

boat

[@Jigolpets]

Awesome 🥰🌸

[@ashsinha2769]

Society and including close relatives can be toxic

[@drendelous]

i have witnessed how more often i open instagram for a few minutes only but still the more stress and boredom i feel during the day. and it freaks me out

[@mariettelobo6722]

Excellent!

[@vivektulja4516]

We are only concerned about monetizing new technologies with no regard to their broader effects on society. Economics is the only thing we care about and not much else. This is how we have ended up where we are.

[@AnaPaulinacom]

For the Title ✨️

[@rachelwesterman1223]

It is hard as a parent though. It is the way they communicate. I made my son put his phone away for a bit because he'd been on it for so long. He missed out on a sleepover because it was all arranged via snapchat.

[@roseymoloney9662]

Also, children still have to submit written papers for their exams so need the writing practice I believe.

[@theemclane4037]

All the little I earn is through my phone

[@chiffre-nummer8475]

That might be the case That's not the topic and still i do find it sad too.

[@RonHunt-fd5bd]

Try monitoring some of the fucked up ads.

[@mattng4707]

Seriously what is wrong with people who cant small talk, convey somethingbiver the phone or just cant talk its like 1000 words text ...when you can have 2 mins convo which connect people properly

[@seattlegrrlie]

I think one thing missing is that it is destroying young men through body image. Steroid use among young men is rampant, self esteem is way down. They're having way less sex, not because they don't want to but because they're not together anymore. Young men are in trouble

[@murasakistudio]

The irony of a title "how society makes us lost, addicted and mentally ill" on a 2 hour KZbin video.

[@janinekay]

I am not the only one then that hates smartphones!! ?!!

[@Vanishingirl42]

I’m gen z and ive got to use my first phone after i finished college at the age of 24

[@babyzorilla]

The phone is a tool not a crutch. Use it properly. Why are you laughing?

[@kellyjohnson9524]

Not sure why I received a device notification of this program earlier this late afternoon, as I didn't set a reminder for it; but in reading its description alone, I can tell you there is thing called The Experience, and it is geared toward instability as to benefit the capitalists, elitists, and what is arguably the majority collective. Together, they have a designed a scheme, a process that is cyclical in nature as to have these perceived everyday issue of commoner repeat themselves. Consider that this country is relatively young itself and is still in its formative years, compared to most other societies, and with 2016 marking one of those shifts that occur in this society, the capitalists, elitists, and the collective all want to take this country in a direction away from the popular desire of progress. They want to retain the social hierarchy inherited from Christopher Columbus and medieval Europe. The Experience is instituted and instigated to wash and repeat until this society comes out exactly the way they want. With this comes all these other issues, to cull the population, to leech off of society, to which if one thinks in terms of indoctrination, assimilation, amalgamation, then it is indeed a process. Perhaps a natural process since we're talking about people exhibiting the worse of humanity. Still, with this process, during this time, the formative stage of the country, there is more turbulence (i.e. issues) than peace. And everyone caught up in this process is just doing the best they can, while recognizing that something isn't quite right, yeah? I personally think the goal is to have direct the US into being homogenous society of Kens and Barbies. I'm sorry, Doc. As I've been subjugated to The Experience for the past twelve years, I have elected to omit indulging in this program in its entirety. I've seen the depths of society and communities, and it's just hard to swim at the surface now. However, I do appreciate your efforts in trying to help people and make both this world and society a better place. Thank you.

[@jenniferatkinson5519]

That comment on kids posting choking on porn makes sense. Why else is the massive fear of men?

[@Greatpacificnorthwesterner]

DEPRESSING:( There’s really no hope in this impersonal world. Ugh

[@janeravesi4326]

I am watching this on my phone...all a bit contradictory.

[@chiffre-nummer8475]

In germany the government supports advertisements for children and teenagers on 'rimming', requires laptops in schools, and supports social media ... to so many and me it is antisocial and disgusting ehat they do with the young human beings since years now and civid-measures on top.

[@jayv5256]

I realize everyone has to make a living but how many adverts do you want to show, completely ruins the talk, pointless.

[@SLefd]

KZbin is a useless drag without Premium subscription. With Premium subscription, KZbin is a goldmine and a delight. I'm just thankful I can afford it.

[@crpggamer]

People are much to concerned with social skills today.

[@lisaart5301]

Thank god! An Atheist! ...the bible People in comment section are always soo lost 😄🤭

[@cindyhall4407]

Those quotes you speak of are from the Bible, not Buddha!

[@laughoutloud3404]

its WESTERN SOCIETY - make that clear~

[@user-em3np4vr8c]

I didn't think it was great, i hardly used it, for years, gave me radiation sickness and now its just full of ads and lies and ways to make money out of you, but i do use utube all my time, at home because its entertainment educational and stops loneliness living alone!😂😂😂😂

[@drendelous]

49:14 sorry Rangan but it sounds terrible

[@Hellogbengoose]

First

[@simonshura9144]

Over exaggerating 😂

[@OGillo2001]

...not very scientific that comment is it?