We need to solve this HUGE Illuvium Leviathan problem

[@AxieLife]

Are you completely crazy? You haven't held a single tournament, you haven't released a single season on Leviathan and you're already telling how hard it is to play Leviathan mod. There's very little choice on the market because you haven't done anything and haven't checked a single tournament or season with a leaderboard. All you can do is cut landowners, cut stakers, cut stats, and so on. No one is motivated to run into the world now, pump experience, because Iluium hasn't done anything for this yet, but players who have been strengthening their team for a long time, spending a lot of time and money on it, now you're telling them that they are very strong? Strong Iluvials should beat weak ones, weak players with a strong deck should lose to strong players with an average deck, strong players with a strong deck should fight for prizes. If you don't have money to buy illuvials from the market, go to the open world and catch them, make yourself an average deck, learn to play and you will be able to defeat strong decks. Why should I spend a lot of resources and money on pumping, fusing, and someone has done nothing for this and is not comfortable playing? You can buy an average deck for less and play and get average prizes, among all those who have the same level and such decks. Players who have weak decks and know how to play should not be at the top. This is simply absurd - there is no such thing in the game web2 and web3. Introduce a delegation system and leasing illuvials - if someone does not need a strong illuvial, he will be able to hire him. What you are doing, you are destroying the inclusiveness of this regime, as it was conceived earlier. I am simply shocked by what you are doing, the team. It would be better to distribute tokens to everyone who can't buy rare stats, so they could buy them.

[@WinnieILV]

Hi, Scoriox! This is probably the first time I’ve felt the need to leave a critical comment on one of your videos. You rightly noted, “I could be wrong about a lot…”, and in this case, I believe you are indeed mistaken.🤨 Your suggestion feels a lot like sabotage, as Filow put it. We've seen how the Leviathan mode operates, and throughout this time, many of us have invested significant funds and countless hours into the project. Now, however, your proposal seems to undermine all that effort, and such changes could damage trust in the project. The Illuvitar market is already nearly lost, and the land market is on the brink. Now, with these suggestions, the Illuvial market risks being entirely destroyed.😵 The Leviathan mode, in its current form, is great because it offers varying levels of challenge. If a player isn’t ready for it, they can always choose the free mode and still earn rewards. Alternatively, they could create a simpler deck and find success in the lower positions of the Leviathan leaderboard. I am strongly against simplifying Leviathan. Let it remain an arena for whales and dedicated players! I sincerely ask you to keep it as it is without making it easier.

[@Scoriox]

I'm all for trying things. Reviewing data and then re evaluating. My primary fear is that there won't be enough players in the long-term for the leviathan to function. If I am wrong then great, I actually quite like the insane ceiling of difficulty for leviathan.

[@WinnieILV]

@@Scoriox Hey buddy, I get that there won't be a huge number of players with decks comparable to, say, Alexa's deck, but that doesn't mean the others will stop playing. They'll be competing for spots in the top 50-500.⚔ As for the current low player activity in Leviathan Gauntlet, I think it comes down to a few reasons: 1) 💸There was already low activity during the Airdrop, and now that the Airdrop has ended, it's dropped even further - and this is affecting not just Gauntlet but all of Illuvium. 2) 📺In the last Town Hall, Kieran mentioned there wouldn't be a big media push in the coming months, which also impacts player engagement. 3) 🔝I heard Kieran talk about rewards for top Gauntlet players. So, maybe those at the top prefer not to play much to avoid risking their leaderboard positions. 4) 🔨And the most obvious reason - many players are valuing their time right now and are focused on leveling up in Overworld since their decks aren’t perfect yet. In short, there are a lot of factors holding things back. But one thing is clear: any adjustments to Illuvial stats would be catastrophic for the game. Absolutely destructive.

[@viktoriol]

When I joined Illuvium a few years ago, I envisioned it as a collectible monster-catching game, akin to Pokémon, Magic: The Gathering, Hearthstone, and Palworld but on steroids & supported by blockchain. Are you and Illuvination suggesting we abandon this vision entirely? I strongly disagree; I believe it’s the other game modes that should be reconsidered. If players have unrestricted access to all monsters, it removes the incentive to collect them. Collecting monsters is the foundation of both the game and its economy. Eliminating that motivation would essentially dismantle the game itself. Look at the games I mentioned-they succeed because you play with the monsters you own. That’s the essence of collectible trading games.

[@Scoriox]

In Pokemon perfect stats is both significantly easier. And less grindy by a factor of 100. I want it to be more like Pokemon which is why I made this video

[@viktoriol]

@@Scoriox You need to find, buy, or own each Pokémon you playing, whether it has stats or not. Imagine if every card ever created were given to all players-it would kill the game slowly but surely, just as we’re seeing with Illuvium now. Why would I bother collecting any of them? It just doesn’t make sense. The tile of the video and how it starts is suggesting you want to take leviathan mode down entirely. Which means only free for all mode remains. I think that is where the disconnect is. If you are happy with the mode but unhappy about the stat bonuses, you should be clear about that in the title and at the beginning of the video. It is misleading.

[@xfilow]

The video title should be - How to sabotage Leviathan Gauntlet.

[@Scoriox]

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. This is the teams fault for making stats a 50% advantage. From a game design perspective it's incredibly stupid. There's no other way to put it

[@xfilow]

@@Scoriox it's not incredibly stupid at all otherwise they wouldn't feel meaningfull. You can have all the perfect stat illuvials you want and I'll still beat your ass with mediocre stat illuvials.

[@nagibassi1166]

My God, this can only be a joke, whoever is actually playing the game is dedicating a lot of time, from the beginning, to have their team with status and levels. Even if you spend 3k or 5k USD you wouldn't have illuviais like I do and do you know how much I spent? Nothing! Because I PLAYED the game. In reality, I earned around 5k USD selling illuviais and I still have my entire team perfect and with levels. It's very easy to come now and say how difficult and expensive things are.

[@torial2249]

I disagree with you. We need something that brings value to our Illuvials. People can either spend time or money to get good Illuvials for Gauntlet. Rental systems are coming and that will make it far more accessible. I do think having a second Leviathan mode that is 1 vs 1 would be a great addition. Either choose your opponent or get matched with someone who has similar strength Illuvials in their deck. We have Beyond rewards and they are the same top players month after month. The same will end up being true for Leviathan. The lower numbers will chamge and it will be hard to unsear the very top. Easier than in Beyond though because of rentals.

[@Scoriox]

My fear (in a world without rentals) is leviathan will have garbage matchmaking because of a lack of players. That's not a fun experience and will lead to even fewer players. That is what the video is about

[@viktoriol]

@@Scoriox The reason Illuvium do not have players because there is no point owning any Illuvials.

[@torial2249]

@@Scoriox I can understand that fear. I do think we need a rental system for sure. I can see Guilds or friends being able to send in their top player(s) and provide the Illuvials for them to win. I know Polemos is doing an actual renting system but I wish there was a way of loaning right through the Illuvidex.

[@horacioreis5472]

Do you guys even know what kind of players you reach lauching this kind of game in web3 format? Looks like that most of the times you just wanna a web2 commum game. What a simple minded point of view man....

[@TalesfromtheCryptMancer]

Give whales their whale food and a place to whale out and spend money if they want. It is good (and probably required) for the in-game market and assets. Not everyone is a whale (myself included) and that is ok. Web3 games like Illuvium need happy and fat whales for the game to grow and succeed. There are other game modes for the majority of players to play in

[@Omnifarious9]

Love the idea of rewarding with fuel instead of ILV.

[@IlluviAsh]

Hey Scoriox, love the vids. But I have to disagree with you on this. Every game that involves Pokemon is the same as Leviathan. You can have the same team as the other player, but the player with the better strategy, and the one with the higher level, or the one with the better battling stats will win. A Leviathan mode should not be equal result, but more along the lines of equal opportunity. If I want to spend money/time in Overworld, I should be rewarded for that, not be evenly matched with someone that didn't do that. If I wanted that, I would just play normal Gauntlet; also, what would be the point of playing Overworld otherwise. This is a heavily pay to win game, in every meaning of the phrase. It will not be possible to, nor should it be expected to have a free to play player compete at the top tier of Leviathan anything. If the same players are winning every week, it's because they have spent the time/money to capture or buy the most top tier, top stat, top level Illuvial there is to offer, as well as the time to master the complexity of managing the gameplay mechanics. If you aren't willing to do the same, why would you expect to achieve the same results? If you don't want the same players to win, do tournaments yourself with people that don't include them, like an ELO-based tournament where you aren't allowed to enter if you're above a certain ranking. There could also be a free to play Leviathan where you're using an account of only self-caught Tier 0 units, but that doesn't sound as fun.

[@Scoriox]

I 100% agree, but I am not sure if you have played competitive Pokemon? I have played competitive Pokemon for 5+ years and here is how it actually works. Because I have a perfect ditto it takes me approximately 2-3 hours to get each perfect Pokemon. So 12-15 hours to acquire my perfect team. In Illuvium it takes 10+ hours to get 1 perfect Illuvial and you need 150. Ideally I don't want to change the systems, but the leviathan mode cannot function as a video game in this way since it likely won't have enough players. That being said I am happy to be wrong.

[@ThaBombo]

Both your numbers (prices) and your statements were WAY off in this video...

[@Scoriox]

I checked the marketplace when I made the video. And did the maths. It's not off

[@ThaBombo]

@@Scoriox Look, I'm literally in the process of putting together a leviathan deck and I'm close to having it complete. Using your display, by the way, thanks a lot for that! 500-800 dollars is enough to buy a deck that should allow you to get to paying places on the leaderboard. It might not be enough to compete for top 10, but it is enough to be competitive. Luck - both with units and augments, team comp and synergies have a much bigger effect on the game than the difference between a +30% and a +50% stat illuvial. So no, you don't need a maxed out team to start and certainly don't need "4-5 illuvials with the average price of $500 that you cannot win without", as you claim in the video. Just implement a consistent reward structure for competitive play, that is payed out weekly no matter what, and you WILL witness people investing into teams so they can fight for those rewards. The top places might go to the same 10-15 people in the beginning, but if others see that there is "easy" money to be made there, they will invest and close the gap real quick. Let's also not forget that the higher price points of high-stat illuvials is literally the only thing that keeps OW players going at the moment, so it's not a bad thing. Fight in the council for a consistent reward implementation, and the demand for good illuvials will also see OW uplifted, until we have new features that will carry it forward later on.

[@nicko2004]

the rental systems are the only route that is possible without completely undermining everything everyone has worked towards currently... ie messing with stats or level caps or making it rain good stat illuvials from the sky will make it so you lose every last player.... at which point why even have stats if they are not relevant just make it all entirely and completely free to play and refund everyone's ETH back....

[@Scoriox]

It wouldn't be free to play, but making it more engaging is still important. But yeah rentals would be a big win

[@nicko2004]

@Scoriox the engagement i believe starts with ranked then becomes a more involved endeavor with leviathan being the ultimate flex of a player's involvement in either gauntlet or ascendant I don't believe leviathan was ever meant to include absolutely every player that's what makes it so competitive. For the same reason not everyone plays league of legends at challenger rank.... you have people who only ever play at bronze silver gold etc and they are fine with that...

[@lgyes2]

I think the rest of the comments say plenty here. But some extra thoughts. - You can't touch leviathan mode now. - Too many of the early community have spent too much time/money building teams for a leviathan mode in its current form. - Illuvium doesn't have enough credit in the bank now, given it's treatment of/communication with landholders, with the community to make changes like this, which would as everyone else says, would destroy any remaining trust. - Leviathan has always been about paying to win, whether through fuel costs & catching the best illuvials or buying them from the market. - I perceive very few people in the crypto gaming world understand that you can play a game just for fun/to win and that you need those people to make a game economy sustainable. 90%+ of the 'Web 3' gaming community are out to turn a profit, they're not in it for ownership per se, they want to make money. If they had ownership but lost 50% of what they invested in the game, they'd be pissed off and vent at the game developers. This is obvious from the way the community behaves. - Rewards for these people will never be enough. If they've spent £500 building a team, they'll expect to be rewarded with more than that. It'll be very tough to please everyone. And if you need to reward people with more rewards than they've spent on fuel, then clearly Illuvium DAO and stakers lose out. - You need people who are happy to put money into the game for fun, expecting to lose money in exchange for fun. Currently Overworld is not fun for people. They're only playing the game to build a team to make a profit. If you took out the hope of profit, Overworld playing numbers would fall to almost 0, as there's no purpose to playing other than building a leviathan team only for profit. There's literally no story or purpose other than that currently. - The purpose of F2P gauntlet doesn't need to be to onboard people to the ownership side. They can be separate and have different reasons to play. F2P can be monetised by skins/tournament entries. These people want to compete on a level playing field with skill, not on the basis of money spent. - If we only try and monetise by leviathan (and ownership in future games), we'll never hit our targets as it will be a relatively small game mode for play to win folk, whether arena or future games too. - Overworld is hugely in need of a F2P mode that people play because of the story, becuase of a purpose and because they want to have fun, without worrying about leviatan and ownership. Have an Overworld to Levithan gameloop for P2W, but have a separate Overworld gameloop for people who just want to pay to have fun, and a separate Arena gameloop, who again just want to pay to buy skins/have fun and compete on a level playing field. My vision for what this needs to look like is crystal clear and can work. - The current expectation that ownership is everything will not work, or certainly won't bring in enough income to sustain us.. - And will lead to a very unhappy web 3 community when 90% of them don't make a profit, or alternatively a very unhappy investor base, when they are constantly diluted by handing out rewards in order to ensure web 3 players make a profit that keeps them happy. Best wishes ejs203

[@Scoriox]

I agree it's too far gone to do sweeping changes without angering people, but really what's top priority is ensuring the game and it's systems work. My video is more about how regardless of how you feel about leviathan it's currently doomed to fail in a tragic fireball, we can leave it as is, but it won't function as it won't have enough players.

[@lgyes2]

I get that, but part of the problem that Illuvium have had is that they haven't acknowledged and been transparent about how changes will impact the community. And I don't recall you acknowledging that fact in your video either. I would have presented it by first acknowledging that you appreciate that changes would have an impact on current players, given time/money spent, but that if changes aren't made, it MAY impact the leviathan mode long term. It's just a nicer way of doing it and your viewers would appreciate that

[@JustDatBoi]

Paying to win sounds pretty boring and uninspired.

[@lgyes2]

@@JustDatBoi If it's only one game mode, it works for the people who enjoy that sort of thing. But so long as this isn't the main gameloop of overworld and arean, we'll be ok.

[@Kibo93]

I love your videos, but dude, please invest some time to edit them. That cough was unprofessional. Also I like your idea to give rewards in form of fuel for ranked gauntlet, so players can then go "for free" gather better illuvials for leviathan

[@Scoriox]

Apologies for the cough. I am quite behind on a lot of stuff and so some things get left out, editing out the cough for example

[@UsernameTarvold]

im waiting to play untill they figure things out. super bulish, investor, for years played and tested all.. still play the lands... today they changed converters and dont give more fuel. now i stop playing all untill they figure things out. First time i think of selling everything.. but been here for a while so im not doing that if its lost its lost...

[@Scoriox]

I understand the frustration. What do you mean with converters not workkingn?

[@UsernameTarvold]

@@Scoriox fuel converters are giving carbon now. not fuel

[@Sota_eth]

Talking from the perspective of someone who spent a lot of time and money to build a Leviathan team: 1- Scholarships --> Yes 2 - Reducing impact of stats --> Why not as long as it still feels significantly rewarding to have perfect lvl 60 illuvials I don't mind if lvl cap is reduced to 50 as long as I'm compensated for the time I put into it but please do implement this change after season 3 because I've spent way too much time on grinding these last 10 levels for my efforts to be reduced to nothing without even being able to reap the benefits for at least 1 or 2 months. I suggest halving stat bonuses which would make balancing both casual and leviathan easier 3- Mostly fuel rewards for casual gauntlet --> I don't know about that, interesting but people prefer money so give them more money than fuel imo 4- Give unique rewards like stat booster NFTs --> I love this idea if these boosters are exceptionally rare to avoid breaking the market

[@Scoriox]

Hey if the heavy leviathan grinders are happy with 50% stat strength then that would honestly be enough. I am not sure where those individuals sit tho

[@mikus2512]

People complain about the work put it so far, but hey, we're still in Beta- everyone is chancing it to an extent - this is crypto after all. I was thinking something that might soften the blow between regular and leviathan could be something like placing limited tokens on your illuvials ahead of match to allocate a proportion of their stat boost (25%,50%, 100% or whatever). This would mean people with lots of high stat illuvials have more flexibility, but people with only one or two great stats could focus on those.

[@Scoriox]

Very interesting. As long as it's not overly complicated I like it

[@mikus2512]

@@Scoriox Yeah, I did consider the complication - I guess the developers could handle it. From the player pov, I don't tend to mind the augment selection / bid so it would be rather similar. Could either select whilst wating to match (something to do!) or, more interestingly strategically, select once you know the opponent

[@siddhartha-1-4-u]

any little incentive is good...I don't hate the fuel idea in some form, and also like to see ILV used to buy things, as it will already be on L2

[@Scoriox]

I have spoken with Kieran about using ILV to buy things. Not sure what's possible but I hope we find a solution