We Need To Talk About This New Evidence For The Shroud of Turin

[@metatronyt]

Join this channel to get access to more old school Metatron videos the algorithm wouldn't prioritize! kzbin.info/door/IjGKyrdT4Gja0VLO40RlOwjoin Also if you like what I do and wish to support my work to help me make sure that I can continue to tell it how it is please consider checking out my patreon! Unboxings are Patreon exclusives! www.patreon.com/themetatron The video interview I'm using to build up a discussion kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6nGYmpvYq18gJI

[@vanpeters9751]

if you fold fibers on money it will get older lol

[@paxcoder]

I understand you were convinced of Jesus through an experience. Please understand that many might not have had such grace. Having an artifact that indicates that Christ is risen indeed would be a big deal to them. Resurrection is a key part of our faith (the word of God around 1 Cor 15:17 comes to mind). What exactly did you get so worked up about at the beginning? "Idolatry"? My separated brother, perhaps you fail to differentiate between adoration (which we nowadays call worship) which is due to God alone, and veneration. The real burial cloth of Christ would not only be touching to me, it would be awe-inspiring, knowing it's a relic of Christ. Even more so if it was Turin Shroud, with its image, it might make me want to worship the God-Man depicted on this icon - the one Who died to save me, and to heal me by the wounds displayed depicted before my eyes.

[@JackyHeijmans]

I think it was the cheap, bad pasta, Metatron, don't worry... 🤣❤

[@ericaugust1501]

but... even if it was the cloth of christ... was it christ? as a rationalist i don't believe in the fantasy books of the ancient times as receptacles of 'truth'. they are just what they are: historical artefacts of the stories and beliefs of that time. and help us understand how religion was used by every nation to understand the world. ie. jesus, if he did exist, like likely just a community leader, speaking out against greed and corruption. he was crucified, and the rest is the myths we humans like to make up, especially back in the past, when supernaturalism was at its height.

[@Don-Scrima]

While you’re on the subject, have you seen the Rebecca Watson video on the shroud?

[@maddog7012]

I love that universally Italians have a kryptonite of breaking spaghetti needles 😂😂

[@ark1567]

We break them sometimes (someone does someone doesn't), but in the middle eventually. Doing that on top is ruining them 😂

[@kevinmorrice]

my italian godmother used to tell me "snapping spaghetti is like trying to fornicate with a blender, its doable but only an idiot would try it"

[@Andrea-di2ew]

Spaghetto means noodle

[@davideventili2881]

​@@kevinmorriceShe's right, the spaghetti get soft very fast so you dont have to break them to fit them in the pot, it does on its own with a little push

[@Svetty00]

@@Andrea-di2ew Pusgetty means noodle and noodles.

[@firingallcylinders2949]

Thats actually why the Punic Wars were happening, Carthage was breaking Spaghetti

[@gabrieledwards1066]

Hannibal Breaka!

[@ThatGuy182545]

It is said that before every defeat against the Romans, Hannibal stood at the vanguard of his army and taunted the Romans by breaking spaghetti. This so enraged the Romans that they lost their cool, logical approach to battle, to their detriment. 🤣

[@user-pj3ic6qw2p]

They actually executed Jesus because they caught him breaking spaghetti as well

[@slickbomb]

I spit my water when you flinched at the broken noodles...hahahahaha

[@maryhildreth754]

Noodles...

[@realMaverickBuckley]

Linguine i think?

[@YandreYak]

that's how Metatron's wars begin usually. broken pasta. send out the legions

[@stupidchukhna3111]

“Because you saw me, you believed, blessed are those who have not seen me, and yet, believe.”

[@unarealtaragionevole]

21:30 Another major factor he didn't mention about the C14 testing, was that the scientists didn't get to choose the location of the sample. They originally wanted a few different locations and we denied, then they wanted a few samples from the same local region of the cloth and were denied again. The authorities didn't want any more material loss, or potential future material loss, from the regions suggested because they were worried about the damage it would do to the cloth with time.

[@mnk9073]

Right? It's such a dishonest argument that "the scientists chose bad samples". It was the church who limited the number and size of the samples and made sure they didn't cut anywhere near the important parts. I mean, it's relatable from their pov but still, it's dirty to make it a point to lay this at the feet of the labs.

[@unarealtaragionevole]

@@mnk9073 Well it actually goes even deeper. So they do talk a little about this a little later in the video, but it's at that point that Breault's personal politics and beliefs come out. This video makes him seem like he's quasi-neutral on the topic or that he's all about the reliability of the data...and that's a lie. Anyone who follows him knows that he believes the Shroud is real, and he's strongly feels there's an effort to deny it's real in the scientific community. He makes it pretty clear that he interprets the released data as' proof' the accepted data is wrong, they knew it was wrong, and they intentionally left out data in order to drive a narrative. He is free to believe that, but that's not what the majority of the scientific community says or thinks about that released information. I mean think about it...if that actually did or does what he says it does...then how do you think both the scientific and religious world would react? This would not have been some minor thing that got ignored or swept under the rug. There would be demands to rescind the data, the papers, the articles, the awards....everything that has been done in the name of the work done by them. There's nothing more science, or scientists, loves to do than to prove another wrong and eat them alive in the process......and that hasn't happened nor has anyone even suggested it. Why? Cause the released information doesn't indicate what he said it does, that's only a minority's interpretation. What happened is the missing part only affirmed the known issues that were already known about and reported on. Nothing was refuted, altered, updated, proven/disproven, or even suggested. Now in fairness, I do agree with him that we need more samples and research, but that's not up to us at this moment.

[@eazygamer8974]

I agree with metatron. My curiosity in shroud has always been from an interest in a cool piece of historical curiosity.

[@theextremebudgeter2775]

As a fellow Catholic, I feel the same. The shroud is such an amazing artefact whether relating to Jesus or not. I would be equally amazed to find out it was produced by artificial means as the extent of the forgery would be so incredibly sophisticated and well thought out.

[@josephfisher426]

Not that we've devoted as much effort as we could, but if it's a forgery we haven't figured out how, yet... which is sobering enough in itself considering the power of science to nail down other things.

[@pskarnaq73]

It doesn't affect my faith either way, but I'd like to think it was legit. That would just be cool.

[@BasedZoomer]

I agree, it would be an amazing testament to God's power to preserve holy things, and I would it to be real in that sense. But I try not to go searching for signs, so if it is fake, it makes no difference to me because that doesn't effect the validity of the truth of Jesus. 😊 God bless

[@rustycaplinger8036]

Im in the same boat as you guys.

[@wesleyfilms]

Same. Cloth fades, creases, and rots. Christ is forever.

[@rustycaplinger8036]

@@wesleyfilms Yes

[@Christusvinci]

The cloth belongs to Christ, and we all know it😏

[@oldschoolhistory3246]

The most incredible thing about the shroud is the negative image showing the face; it wasn't discovered until 1898, many hundreds of years after even the alleged date of forgery. It's hard to see how forgers could have created such an image, so much more lifelike than the iconic artwork of the time, in a way that would not even be apparent for centuries.

[@danijeljovic4971]

I'm sceptical of the shroud myself and I haven't watched the whole video yet but I already left a like just because of your honest disclaimer at the start about your own potential biases. I have a lot of respect for such honesty. It's the first time I actually believe that a youtuber really just wants to learn more about a topic and share it even if it doesn't align with their personal beliefs

[@fij715]

Are you skeptical because you are an atheist.

[@celsus7979]

The guy makes good videos!

[@williamberven-ph5ig]

I trust his analysis more than anyone on the internet. We all have biases but M. Does everything he can to refer to ancient sources followed by reasonably triangulated conclusions and his knowledge of languages is truly astounding.

[@whiteeye3453]

A. D you don't have any biases?

[@obiwanshinobi87]

Italians and broken spaghetti go together like oil and water

[@Pdor_figlio_di_Kmer]

Not all of us. I only raised an eyebrow... to Metatron's reaction.

[@notuxnobux]

and then there are people that put oil in their pasta water

[@iluvrolaz]

Omg yessss!!! Your previous video on the shroud is my favorite one out of the dozens of videos I've watched on it!!!

[@baronzad2056]

Do the Dwarves have a Shroud of Durin? 🤔

[@wesleyfilms]

It's in the museum, right next to the pile of deal elves.

[@agingerbeard]

It would be more believable 😂

[@jamesmaybrick2001]

@@agingerbeard We know for a fact that Tolkein existed. That alone puts us closer to Durin than anything gets us to claims of magic carpenters.

[@Jon.S.123]

If they do, it's made of beard hair.

[@michaelcote1942]

​@jamesmaybrick2001 The Soy is strong in you. I bet you were single mother raised.

[@rifter0x0000]

When the spirits of Metatron's Italian ancestors all rose in protest at the breaking of that spaghetti 🤣

[@joshuapreston7170]

This is a bit off topic, but I think it's not a good thing in this modern age that you have to do a disclaimer whenever you react to someone's channel. If one cannot handle a criticism of any sort, or an honest disagreement of their position, maybe they should not present their ideas out there for the public. I admire your work Metatron and hope you keep up the good work.

[@nocsiou]

I think it’s for the most part so people don’t start wars in their comment section, also there’s a lot of senseless hostility nowadays, it doesn’t hurt to declare ‘this isn’t a personal attack’ as absurd as it is that we even got to this point..

[@Crimea_River]

100% agree. Don't put anything on the internet that you don't want someone to comment on.

[@rifter0x0000]

I think Metatron's point here was that he was not necessarily endorsing the other content on that channel. There is a tendency when you address a video in a channel for people to interpret your statements on that one video as being a judgement on the whole channel or that creator. So by featuring one video from that creator, it might seem like you endorse or condemn everything else. The disclaimer was that at time of recording he had not watched any other videos on that channel and had chosen the video because it was an interview with a scholar he was familiar with.

[@joshuapreston7170]

​@@rifter0x0000I understand the reason why he does it, I just disagree with why he has to do it ..I'm not knocking him at all

[@TJ-um8ce]

Well said 👏

[@jameswells554]

Researcher: < breaks spaghetti noodles> Metaron: "DEATH TO THE HERETIC!"

[@rosiean9064]

We are so spoiled with the daily uploads ♡ lo amo!

[@hawkticus_history_corner]

Ive always thought the shroud was neat. Like, if its a fake thats a hell of a fake and I'm super curious how they made it. If its real, i am even more curious as to how it occured.

[@jhoughjr1]

Ive suapected it could be real ever since i was a kid. Does it need to be real? No but it well could be

[@theblackspark2644]

I feel that the evidence points more toward it being real than it being fake. It probably can't be proven 100% but I think it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[@hawkticus_history_corner]

@@theblackspark2644 I certainly believe it's from the correct time period at a minimum. There's just no reason for a medieval forger to go to those lengths when people of the time would have no real way to check

[@nonyabisness6306]

@@hawkticus_history_corner there is a very long history of christians faking artifacts. like, a very long history.

[@gbennett58]

One thing seems clear; the world's first photographic image was not taken in 1826, it was 2,000 years ago.

[@BecomeTheKnight]

Was REALLY hoping you'd revisit this haha. My position: The Shroud is authentic, belonged to Jesus of Nazareth. The study from 2019 refuting the methodology of the carbon dating in the 80s was peer-reviewed, and I believe it is consensus as well. If you haven't seen it or heard the story of the FoIA requests, it's worth looking into. Would love your take on it. The new dating method is neat, but I agree with you that it isn't the most reliable. All of the other evidence and Occam's Razor points me toward it being authentic.

[@Kyri33leison]

I too would like to see metatron look into the FOI requests to the British museum

[@takix2007]

Occam's razor: which requires the fewest / least wild hypotheses : a) the actual mortuary shroud of the messenger of God (and in a way, God himself) made a negative of His not very distorted (for a fabric that was wrapped around a body) silhouette and this shroud survived all the way to our period of time, or b) some believer of a religion in the Middle Ages crafted a fake (a thing *never ever* seen elsewhere; BTW, by weight, the relics claimed to be "pieces of the True Cross" throughout history would by far exceed the volume of a crucifiction cross) in order to get money?

[@theblackspark2644]

​@@Kyri33leison I'll second that.

[@nonyabisness6306]

Occam's Razor prefers the simplest explanation. christianity being true is not the simplest explanation.

[@Loveistheirwholehapp]

​@@nonyabisness6306It quite is, actually

[@campermobile3217]

When I found out last year, from a documentary, that it wasn't paint, I sobbed... It meant that it was, **at least**, a real man who had suffered similarly to Jesus. And when you find out how Jesus suffered, it can make you cry uncontrollably without tears!

[@buckjones4901]

Fact with me is, haven't seen a good explanation on how did they produce the negative imagine on the shroud and back in the period of time they said it was faked? Along with the fact the shroud was repaired after a fire and that was the piece that was sewed on that they carbon dated on purpose to create a false date on the rest of the shroud.

[@mnk9073]

Look up what a Camera Obscura is and then look at how early photography worked.

[@wadeevans4355]

There was a team in several years ago used high energy laser/light pulses to make a similar discoloration. I think it was in Italy but not sure.

[@Raz3477x]

They didn’t choose where to take a sample. The church did…

[@TheRestedOne]

@@mnk9073 Huh? Not only does that fail to answer the question, it also does not match the atheistic argument suggesting the Shroud is an 11th century product, with 14th century paints. For all the scientific scrambling to explain away a truly fascinating artifact, there’s some truly poor excuses out there that utterly fail in matching the historic record.

[@mnk9073]

@@TheRestedOne It literally does if one could be bothered to do the reading themselves. But let me break it down for you: You have a dark room with a tiny hole in one wall through which sunlight projects the image of whatever is facing that wall outside, just flipped, through the wonderful "magic" of optics. Aristotle already wrote about it in the 4th century BC. Now silver nitrate stains saltwater soaked cloth a reddish brown when exposed to, you guessed it, sunlight. Meaning if you hang a saltwater soaked and silver nitrated coated piece of cloth on the wall in your dark room, let the little hole and sunlight do it's thing you get a upside down negative image of what was on the other side of the wall stained onto your cloth piece. It's basically a room sized Pinhole camera that can produce exactly the image as on the shroud. Whether or not some overzealous or entrepreneuring spirit added human blood to it later is a question we'll never know...

[@Player-re9mo]

For me, the biggest red flag of the shroud is how it appeared seemingly out of nowhere centuries later after the events of the New Testament. Imagine if we found the Holy Grail now. Great, but where has it been all this time?

[@sonofasalesman]

Metatron himself did a video about the alleged history of the Shroud prior to that. To me, the real miracle is that, assuming it is as old as the Romans, that means it would have survived the purges from early Christian persecution

[@NoPantsBaby]

Spaghetti gets snapped. Roll willpower if you have Italian on your character sheet.

[@tipemotions]

It's not willpower it's constitution, it breaks your heart not you mind

[@RandomSwedishGuy]

Nice, I actually loved the old video, got me into the channel.

[@benu_bird]

My biggest problem with the Shroud always was the excellent condition the fabric is in. I'd expect any fabric that old to at least have spots that had disintegrated. Since it was "rediscovered", it's been kept very carefully. But before it appeared in the 14th century, where was it?

[@rbrainsop1]

This is fair. But it also makes sense to me that all the previous owners/caretakers would have also taken great care with it, considering what they believed it to be

[@Christusvinci]

That's is where you science and the divine align perfectly, ever heard of the incorruptibles. Also have you ever heard of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano? Ever heard of the Cloth that bears the image of our Lady of Guadalupe! These are examples where science/biology gets suspended.

[@tipemotions]

The shroud is not in excellent condition tho

[@Raz3477x]

While I agree, do keep in mind that parts of the shroud were repaired with new materials, as was stated in the video, after the fire damage

[@oscura70percent]

Scientist here! That method needs a LOT more development, I wouldn't count on it at all, for now.

[@mnk9073]

Fascinating, it would be a massive win to have a piece of textile this large and well preserved from actually 2000 years ago. i still think it's more likely that _San Marco_ in Venice is actually the mummy of _Alexander the Great_ than that the shroud of Turin is the actual burial shroud of Jesus, simply because the level of details on it don't add up with the marks that can be transferred from a dead body to a piece of cloth. I could be the accidental by-product or the result of a _Camera obscura_ experiment, we know some scholars dabbled in this subject around the time and cloth soaked in saltwater and infused with silver nitrite would produce an image similar to what we see on the cloth when exposed to sunlight through a camera obscura set-up. Also all traces of this would be obscured or misidentified thanks to time, the fires and especially the melting silver dripping on it. Also the host of the other channel is giving a whole labour day parade of "cool youth pastor"-red flags...

[@DeltaDrifter2201]

Nooooo. Not the pasta!

[@blong6688]

appreciated your coverage and honesty. i would appreciate more of your insights on this topic.

[@matthewgrumbling4993]

I tried, really tried to resist watching this video. But I couldn’t! I just value Metatron’s analysis too much to resist it. His willingness to admit his own bias is just the beginning of his commitment to finding the truth. Well done, as always!

[@TheWendybird123]

When you really do a deep dive into the science already done with the Shroud, it's fascinating! I'm convinced it's 1st century from the environs of Jerusalem. But there were hundreds if not thousands of people crucified under Roman occupation, so for now we have no way to "prove" it's the Shroud of Yeshua bar Yosef. At the very least it's a grand puzzle for humanity. More please, Metatron!

[@Grandwigg]

I've seen a few presentations about it. One was a replica (scaled down a little) one of the (i think) scientists from the team that also did the carbon dating tests. He mad a compelling case, but I was still unconvinced. After watching the documentary of sorts here on Metatron's channel, (and reading the discussion in the comments, and those references) I feel my position has somewhat changed. I no longer think I can say I believe it to definitely fake. I do think its fascinating to consider the implications if It's real. If it truly was the resurrection shroud from a physics perspective (As in, what natural mechanisms, if any, are in use or affected by a supernatural miracle). I might even lean toward the likelihood of authenticity, but I am personally leery of the veneration of 'holy relics'. Such can imply that the source of any blessing or good thing is the relic itself, and lead into or become idolatry. (This in fact, is one element restraining my belief that it could be the shroud of Jesus Christ's Crucifixion, Burial and Resurrection. A believe that the early church and apostles would know better and prevent things such as this, or the cup of the last supper and such to be preserved for veneration.) The fallout over a definitive proclamation of authenticity could be scary, though. I can easily see many of the icky, negative reactions people have to maintaining or gaining control over a significant 'holy' object- Such as the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock. To so nothing of people wanting to see if the artifact itself had any form of mysterious power (like passing though solid objects). (Using the Power of the Shroud was actually part of that plot of a book i read, and I'm sure there are even more) It is still fun to consider the possibility. I do think I would like to see it in person in any event. And if it is real, well that would be wild, but I agree with what Raf said, it shouldn't be a contingent element for a Christian's faith. (I need to get better at spelling names. ) This was an excellent, and fascinating video to watch!

[@MrBowser2012]

Thank you so much for the time and effort you put into these videos.

[@cb5117]

I attended a Catholic grade school, and was always wildly intrigued and interested in the Shroud of Turin. I checked out that one book about it, dozens of times just to look at the pictures. The stigmata wounds are perfectly placed. I am an agnostic, yet the infinite number of mysteries Christianity/Catholicism offers, is to compelling to ignore. Our Lady of Guadalupe and the Medjugorje visions were favorites of mine growing up. I was able to see one of the statues of Mary that wept blood. The latter of the visions, was especially interesting, as the children would fall into a trance while praying, and became impervious to outside stimuli(prick them with a needle/no reaction). And then you had the SECRETS that the Pope was supposed to reveal to the world, Mary’s final secret at the end of the millennium. It was deemed to “dangerous” by the papacy. EXORCISMS………YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST CREATE A SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!! It’s an incredible topic to research, and tend to think your scholarship would be top notch, as long as you relinquish ALL of your religious beliefs, biases, tenets, ideologies, etc. Your views would be astronomical as well. And we a are coming up on 🎃……….

[@michaelvasques1837]

I have learned from this channel,with doing some of my own Research, that I could imagine what other historic insights I will know with MetaTron..Excellent!

[@lesissmilinglytryin1436]

I am not even Italian and I wanted to march (well roll; i am paraplegic) with the Roman Legions when I saw him break the spaghetti. "Let us March!"

[@oldschoolhistory3246]

The spaghetti snap brought out Metatron's inner Lionfield

[@leoricotti910]

Yes interested in more turin videos! Thnx

[@ThatGuy182545]

I mean….. there are plenty of things that will change your life if you just “let yourself believe.” I mean if you just “let your self believe” that a REAL Nigerian prince is sending you emails, that you’re actually his lawful heir, and that there really is a trunk full of US currency in a bank vault in Nigeria that you are entitled to, your belief will ABSOLUTELY change your life. I don’t think you’ll like the changes, but your life will definitely change. Even if The Shroud of Turin is the 100% real artifact, an actual real piece of the Christ myth, that doesn’t prove that the rest of the myth is true. It just proves that a guy named Jesus was buried in the cloth. It doesn’t prove that he walked on water, fed thousands of people with two loaves of bread and a couple fish, or got up out of his tomb and went walking.

[@Loveistheirwholehapp]

Atheists really coping out here 😂

[@Quackadam]

Love your shows, thank you for all the hard work.

[@evocati6523]

I don't care if he found Jesus himself, you don't mistreat pasta like that

[@TarpeianRock]

The horror, the horror….

[@Christianos_Theophile]

As a Christian, I have to say - the shroud is completely irrelevant, and it always has been. If you're looking for physical evidence, you're missing the point completely. It's about FAITH. Faith doesn't require scientific proof. Having undeniable proof would actually make faith _impossible,_ since you don't need belief if you have objective proof. To have faith is to believe in something that you cannot _know_ for certain... once you have _proof,_ you no longer have any need for faith. The Bible tells us that it's impossible to please God without faith. Searching for evidence is the wrong tactic. The Bible defines faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." So as far as the shroud goes - real, fake, who cares? The real question is, were the things Jesus said true? If you hear His words, and your heart knows they're true, then that should be enough... if He speaks the truth, simply believe Him ✝️

[@metatronyt]

I agree with you 100%

[@agingerbeard]

This is very revealing ​@@metatronyt so much for the value of truth and evidence, eh?

[@cjohnson3836]

Sounds like a great way to arrange an unquestioning cult.

[@matestypecek]

Jesus performed miracles to prove to the people that he was the Son of God, thus providing physical evidence. Did that make their faith impossible? I don't think so.

[@dud3man6969]

As a former deist, I disagree. At least in my own case. I do believe it is authentic and it was referenced in scripture and left behind for a reason.

[@KroiAlbanoiArbanon]

Ah yes. Finally he did it. He reacted to the spaghetti being broken. And he did the way I expected it.

[@wadeevans4355]

Some years ago, I believe an Italian team used some type of super high energy laser pulses to create a similar staining/discoloration on cloth. That might be something to Meta could do a video on.

[@moonrisestudiosco]

That could be very insightful.

[@Marveryn]

one problem they have about the shroud that always left out. Jesus was not the only person crucified. Even during the time he was crucified he had two others with him. the practice was perform by the roman for hundreds of years prior to jesus and perhaps hundreds after. he is one of many that suffer such an act. So first you got to prove that is from the right time and place and last you got to prove it from that particular individual. Its kind of the same issue when you speak about the holy grail or the nail. You can not prove that is that exact one. Particular since in medieval time it was famous for finding saint artifact to give a church more weight and grave robber was a thing.

[@Neformalis]

Loved the pasta breaking :D Also, thanks for being objective. Your opinion in the end was missing but maybe next time

[@AtsircEcarg]

Its legitimacy doesn’t make or break my faith but I do find it fascinating.

[@AnnalyFaith]

Need to watch the Documentary, so glad you have looked into it with your background and personal faith your opinion and research is of great value and importance. I tried to watch so many of the videos about the new evidence and the were all unwatchable, for so many different reasons. Not watched Cameron Bertuzzi’s tho.

[@williamberven-ph5ig]

Like all unproven mysteries, it's fun to speculate.

[@Vhalior666]

Very interesting, but, I have one very simple thing to ask. Does anyone really think the Vatican hasn't had the Shroud independently tested without the World knowing? And does anyone think, if the Shroud was indeed proven to be 1st Century, they would remain silent on this fact? We are talking about the Vatican here.

[@fre7717]

@metatronyt there is another interview from that channel with the actual italian principal investigator in this study and he answered way more questions, than the current guest was able to shed light on. The current guest is more a custodian of the STURP data from 1970's, and so have knowledge of some of the historical tests done, but may not be able to answer the most critical questions. So, you are reviewing an interview with a guest with a limited knowledge of the newer tests. Also there are doubts on whether another carbon dating, could gave a more accurate result, as the fire would have caused deposits of carbon over the shroud material- hell, parts of it were burnt and then repaired with cotton inserts.

[@jarnMod]

That whincing is real, man. It was a strike.

[@DracoOoOoOo]

I am really hoping you do a deep dive into the carbon dating of the shoud and all of the shinanigans that happened. I really enjoy your analysis of things and believe it would make an interesting video.

[@KevinDay-t2f]

I love your intellectual honesty and how you use facts and evidence to back up your conclusions. Even admitting to your biases is refreshing. Believing in magical thinking dilutes humanity’s knowledge base. Magic should only have a place in fiction/games as a form of entertainment and enjoyment. BUT it is not reality. Don’t even get me started on manifesting…

[@lurree1904]

The shroud is irrelevant to me. BUT the science surrounding it is absolutely fascinating! How in the world did the image appear? Just the fact that they cannot tell us how it got there is very mysterious. I truly hope one day we can get a definitive answer 😁.

[@anzwertree]

The real question is why do we think it's jesus's and not just some random persons

[@gotteskind_7]

I saw a video yesterday of a guy trimming his spaghetti with a pair of scissors at the restaurant while he visited Italy. Everyone in the background was horrified. Then he put the ice cubes in his glass of wine and a waiter promptly confiscated his beverage while wagging his finger disapprovingly.

[@beebarfthebard]

I believe it's real, but it's not my salvation. If it turns out fake, it isn't going to change my mind on who my savior is.

[@metatronyt]

That’s the way brother

[@daduzadude1547]

@@metatronytAncient Egypt and the Bible debunked this video. He’s a bonafide Egyptologist, has degrees (yes multiple) in biblical languages, etc., and has a high regard for your work, btw 😊

[@polymathing]

Live by the Shroud, Die by the Shroud.

[@ManFromThePits]

If the Shroud is real, I predict that any and all scientific analysis will be inconclusive. In sacred scripture, and traditional theology in general, faith is considered a virtue. God has expressed his appreciation of faith, and encouraged it in the Bible. He offers us signs of his existence and work, but he doesn't force us to believe in them. As such, considering God as a free agent with free will, I predict he would typically decline to cooperate with scientific studies; that is, he wouldn't interfere with the experiments, or wouldn't cooperate with them the way, say, a pound of sodium would - because sodium has physical properties that just automatically happen. God, meanwhile, has the ability to say, "nah, I'm sitting this out," and then he does nothing. So, if God values faith - that is, the ability to believe without evidence - then he would not deny his creations the chance to have faith. So, for this reason, if the Shroud was fake, we would have definitive evidence of that; but if it were real, and God values faith, then he wouldn't interfere with our ability to have faith by giving us concrete, visible evidence of his existence. So the Shroud would inevitably defy scientific study, rendering all examination inconclusive; thus the mystery remains intact, and the doorway to faith remains open. Of course, that's only a theory; God has a habit of defying expectations.

[@flynnoldman3542]

Was gonna point this out as well. Well done.

[@jarlwilliam9932]

Faith isn’t about believing without evidence. Faith is about placing your trust in the evidence. Faith simply means trust, and either you believe the evidence and place your trust in God or you don’t and place your trust in other things.

[@ManFromThePits]

@@jarlwilliam9932 A fair point; complete trust was the definition I found when I looked it up. Nothing to do with evidence, though. That said, I have heard it defined both ways.

[@BasedZoomer]

​@@jarlwilliam9932 I agree with this. God has given us evidence throughout all of recorded scripture. The only time faith, in the sense of believing without evidence, has been required were after evidence had been given at a previous point in time ex: God led the people out of Egypt, He showcased His power and sovereign control of nature and how He would use that power to the benefit of Israel, His bride. Then when the people came to the promised land He asked them to trust that He would continue to do this and work in their favor as they waged war to have control of the land. The pattern was given previous evidence -> trust in what has been revealed. That's just the one off the top of my head, but Jesus would be another example, He performed great things and was glad when people put their faith in that. He performed the miracles so that we (fleshy, physical beings) would have something to trust in as He said (paraphrasing) "If you believe not in Me, at least believe in the works I have shown you"

[@benu_bird]

My biggest problem always boiled down to the lie of free will. God gives you free will, but then expects blind faith. So if you attempt to use free will and expect some kind of logical proof, you're damned. But he's all loving. All powerful. He gave you free will and the ability to use reason and logic, but expects you to have "faith" and just believe. And he expects your worship. Why give free will if for no other reason than to play a twisted kind of mind f*ck game on your creation? And the whole thing about holy relics goes against faith. If you have faith, why do you need a piece of cloth to prove something to you?

[@JohnSmith-gb5vg]

As a little kid, was introduced to the shroud via National Geographic. Did not understand how a piece of cloth could survive all those wars and other violences of the times. Agree, it is something to be interested in, but to not to worship too.

[@JohnSmith-gb5vg]

Ps I break my pasta and I microwave it in boiling water… 🙄

[@-Higashi-]

Meta gonna hit 1 million subs 2025 ! I see it ! I feel like the daily uploads are bringing in a lot of subs

[@Roland3ld]

Here's the usual full support.

[@The_Zilli]

Many don't realize that there is another piece of garmet that ties in with the shroud, the headpiece - the blood splatter matches exactly to the shroud. This would be the piece of cloth that they use to cover the victim's face during the transportation to the tomb and not the full burial cloth that would later be used to wrap the body of the deceased as per tradition. As for the shroud - I agree with everyone that it being real isn't important to Christians hwoever it *IS* important because it is our first physical proof of a supernatural event that cannot be explained which many aethists and skeptics have a hard time believing in the because of the supernatural element of it. So having something that not only is supernatural but ties itself to not just the Bible itself but Jesus himself is extremely important despite how some wish to brush away it's importance.

[@moonrisestudiosco]

Can't it be all of the above without any of the supernatural pretext?

[@Noslime]

It’s awesome to find out that you are a Christian, and you seem to be real about your faith. “for many will say on that day, Lord Lord, have we cast out demons in your name? And the Lord says, depart from me I never knew you”.

[@williamberven-ph5ig]

Agnostic here. No "dog in this fight" but if genuine, the most amazing aspect of the shroud would be that we have a photograph of Jesus. Pretty cool, no?

[@mikeruxpin2829]

I remember hearing about this as a kid and thinking " uh huh sure" 30 years later my reaction is the same

[@Kyri33leison]

My two favourite KZbin channels

[@tomkerruish2982]

I thought that spaghetti was broken to reduce the mess caused by children slurping up long noodles, spraying tomato sauce about.

[@sugakukata]

Even if the linen fabric of the Shroud of Turin dates back to antiquity or the 1st century, that alone doesn’t prove the image is from the same period. It’s entirely possible that an artist could have created the image on an authentic first-century shroud. During the medieval period, the veneration of relics was common, and older materials or objects were often embellished or altered to enhance their religious or monetary value. As for the claim that it represents the moment of Jesus' resurrection, I have two issues with that. First, the image is a flat projection, showing both the front and back of the body, suggesting the cloth was wrapped around it. This seems to have been the artist’s intention. I say "artist" because this is a distinctly human error, a lack of knowledge and skill in geometry. If the cloth had actually been wrapped around a three-dimensional body, you simply wouldn’t get such a flat and proportionate image. Just the very lack of side alone. Also why the blood stains? I would think that Joseph of Arimathea didn't just wrap his body in a linen cloth and placed it in the tomb as is, before cleaning it according to the Hebrew law. Sure, ointments had to wait next day, but surely at least they washed him. I think blood is another human error, the artist believed it would add the realism. The second issue is the lack of any historical record. Despite detailed accounts of the Church's early history, including the ''knowledge'' of who discovered the tomb, there is no mention of the shroud or at least a ''mysterious image'' in the Gospels, the Book of Acts, or other early writings. So, who removed the shroud from the tomb, and were they hiding it from the early Church?

[@philiphumphrey1548]

It would have had to have survived, the sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans, several severe Christian persecution by the Romans, the Muslim invasions in the 600s, possibly the fall of Constantinople as well. And yet not a mention or record of it before the 1300s, when it just appears from nowhere.

[@boogy4you]

At church where I went to, no one was interested in the Shroud, they have the Bible, that's it. It's of significance to me as it raises lots of questions.

[@maryellencook9528]

Amen, Raffaelo, amen. 🙏🙏🙏 I like to see the work of scholars who look for the historical Yeshua of Nazareth. I also agree that whether the Shroud of Turin is authenticated or a fraudulent is irrelevant. It's a matter of faith. Raf, old son, take some deep breaths to lower the ol' B/P. I will refrain from saying "calm down"; telling a Sicilian to calm down is like telling a Texas woman to calm down. I know because my cousin married an Italian whose parents were from Sicily.( Re the snapping of the pasta. I could hear Cousin Jackie and Aunt Rosie Granieri spinning in their graves 75 miles away in San Antonio. )

[@Tabatista281178]

When you have a theory, and after analyzing evidence you change or dismiss it entirely, it’s called Science.

[@JohnnyBrook]

The Shroud of Turin is a real wrap star, but if Metatron could weigh in, he’d probably say it’s a bit of a “holy sheet” situation!

[@debterrell4579]

It would be cool if it was His real shroud. It's pretty cool that it it's centuries old as is, hoax or not. AND... 😸 the guy breaking the pasta... the flinch felt around the world.😆

[@cindycompton9916]

Exodus 20:4 Says not to make graven images. God doesn't allow idolatry. some people have made this shroud an idol. So wouldn't it be reasonable to think, that God did not allow something like the shroud, to happen?

[@BringJoyNow]

13:50 yes, but the range of temperature comes into aid with historical temperature data. A 5 degree deviation would be needed for the shroud to have been 700 yrs old only conserved in Southern Europe. Climatologists can confirm this has not happened.

[@MARSMAN21]

rip the pasta

[@exploatores]

the problem is that even if the cloth is dated from the right period. it has been tamerd with after.So you don´t know when the inprint got their. that could be medieval

[@Maurcusj777]

We(some highly qualified team) should test the blood on the Shroud and the Sudarium to see if they match. The sudarium is definitely at least a old as the 7th century. If they can be tied together that absolutely disproves the carbon dating.

[@pigdestr0yer1973]

I agree with you on your approach to the shroud. I am also a christian, and the authenticity (or not) makes no difference to me either. On the one hand - perhaps it would actually be a good thing if it could be proven to be a forgery, once and for all, so we could just get it out of the discussion. On the other hand, the more I look into it, the more I kind of believe in it. The thing that confuses me the most, is this: Why would a forger back in the middle ages make it in the form of a negative (like a photo negative)? Did artists back then even know the concept of a negative? Do you know, Metatron? Has there ever been ancient art in the form of a negative? And what would be the point of making it a negative? Because - if you just look at the cloth, the image you see with your eyes (the positive) looks ridiculous, like a child had painted the image of a face on there with a thick brush. What would be the point? It makes no sense. I hope you will look more into this, and perhaps make another video (I saw your previous one, very good).

[@2mo2time]

Hey Metatron, i have been a non denominational christian most of my life now, i love jesus and have been looking at the catholic church for a home church, but i have no idea whats up with the Mary stuff. I would like to hear you cover it. I am reading a book atm and tried watching some vids but it makes more questions than answers

[@Overonator]

Reason to Doubt on KZbin debunked this. They have the most comprehensive series of videos on the Shroud of Turin.

[@Rollin_L]

You just exposed your own bias, what and who you worship. Nicely done.

[@MarkHorton-n3t]

I question the wear method of dating. Wouldn't the main cause of wear in any piece of cloth be handling. A bed sheet would be washed frequently and be rumpled during use. Certainly more than a shroud used once and moved occasionally. This shroud is known to have been handled for display hundreds of times. Too many unknowns.

[@c342thedroid2]

I grew up in Turin, grew up catholic. Today I'm agnostic in belief and atheist in practice. Yet I know I'm biased into believing that shroud wasn't forged.

[@MrPeterFranc]

The Shroud has too many clues pointing to the fact it is the original burial cloth of the Lord

[@NikorouKitsunerou]

It's unknown how the image was made to be present on the cloth and so until that's discovered there can be no assurance how later interactions the cloth had could have changed any kind of testing results. It's kind of like figuring out how the big bang happened and then pretending how everything else formed later on. I feel like there needs to be a better accountability of the history of the Shroud of Turin.

[@TheRealMightyHokie]

I've been waiting for this!

[@Alanaronald]

The other day I watched a video suggesting that the face is that of Leonardo da Vinci.

[@johnvolck8894]

I think the question is more along the lines of: how likely is it that an artist, either 2000 yrs ago, or in the Middle Ages, would be able to recreate this level of detail, anatomical knowledge, knowledge of how gravity and forces of nature affect the body, etc.,- unless he was copying an original- as in the real thing? Sure, maybe a Renaissance artist could do this- but if it’s not real, it seems like it has to be a copy of a real thing, or made by an artist with an amazing(superhuman) amount of forethought. At the same time, the amount of pressure to buy, sell, and possess Christian relics, and therefore manufacture them, throughout history, is troublesome…

[@kensmith5694]

I still think it could have been created by an artist. They may have rule out many methods but you can't say you have ruled out all possible methods. The word "fake" also can't be applied unless you know the purpose of that artist. If it was a representation and called only that, it could still be a think people would want to keep. Someone later could have changed the claim on it. This same sort of thing happened with more recent art by some guy in Germany. He made his living making paintings in the style of the great masters. He always signed his work but they did look a lot like real stuff. He discovered many years later that some of his work had been cropped along the bottom and sold as real. If the shroud really is the burial cloth of some guy called Jesus, we still can't be sure because Jesus was a fairly common name. If we have the DNA, there may be something odd about that but even that is not a proof.

[@geonunes10]

I'm not even Italian and I cringed when the guy broke pasta. There's a tenth circle of hell just for people who does that

[@markkiazyk586]

@Metatron Would you please do a video speaking about Joseph Atwill's "Caesar's Messiah"? I wouid love to see you deconstruct that doc.

[@TJ-um8ce]

Jesus is REAL folks... this is coming from someone who didn't believe until I had a RADICAL experience with Him, after being a non-believer for my entire life. I can't deny what I clear saw and the absolute power I experienced, out of NO WHERE... it's all real. He's coming back soon, so there's still time for you too... don't delay!

[@bo6686]

They'll never retest the Shroud because apologist know that making excuses is free, but testing whether those excuses hold up with solid science is not going to get them the result they want.

[@The_Rude_French_Canadian]

Weird how we supposedly have two physical proofs of God’s existence yet neither of them can be verified…

[@Winter-Lake]

I'm a Christian. I don't believe that it was THE burial cloth for Jesus, and even it was, it makes no difference. Its the Gospel that is the power of salvation, the Word of God, not a piece of cloth. Here is why I don't believe that it is THE cloth. The image transference wouldve been due to blood and bodily fluids when He was wrapped in the burial cloth. Scripture says he was beaten so immensely He was disfigured beyond recognition. Scripture says that there was nothing about His (in the flesh) appearance that would cause us to find Him beautiful, handsome, attractive, "desirous." Blood and body flyids on the cloth would mean that scientists today or in the future could extract His DNA and evil corrupt mankind would no doubt try to do wrong thints with that (attempt to clone or in procreation?). Would God even allow that? Either you believe in Jesus or you don't. Either you believe His WORD or you don't. Cloth is an earthly item created by God. All creation is evidence of our Creator. Isaiah 53:2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. Isaiah 52:14 Just as many were appalled at you- his appearance was so disfigured that he did not look like a man, and his form did not resemble a human being. John 20:29 Jesus said unto him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 4:48 So Jesus said to him, Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.

[@waylonoconner9121]

My thing with the shroud is, scripturally any way, wasn't the face wrapped seperately? “Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself.” ‭‭John‬ ‭20‬:‭6‬-‭7‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@jonharvey55]

Hey, Metatron. You should review the latest episode of Lex where he has that charlatan Graham Woodcock on.