We Need To Talk About Tone X (theres a problem)

[@MichaelWWestbrook]

Thanks for having me Rhett!

[@sboy1955]

MW, I’ve actually bought a few of your Helix presets, rare for me to do. Your ear and ability to recreate tones is really good - or at least works well with my set up. Thanks.

[@GregoryHillSr]

Loved collaboration & insite on this!!!💪🏿👍🏿💪🏿

[@GregoryHillSr]

Question: did you collab w/ sweetwater guitar b stock giveaway??

[@nedludd3641]

Please please please hunt down then review the clip of the Berkeley Music Professors' improvised jamming session. Priceless. Living breathing proof that an Ivy League university education is a truly wonderful thing

[@007bennett]

Here's the deal. Most people buying a toneX don't have a bunch of multi-thousand dollar amps and a home studio with amazing pre's and thousand dollar mics. That is this the appeal of toneX. I can buy toneX and go online and pay 20 - 30 bucks for amazing captures of amps I could never afford. That vast majority of users aren't capturing amps. That's why the capture isn't part of toneX one like it is for quad cortex and kemper. That is where toneX is so appealing to someone like me.

[@Doc-zg3xm]

Agree, I purchased one for this very reason. I bought a metal pack and use it mostly for silent practice. With that the best part of the Tonex, was I discovered how much I like Peavey's 5150/6505. I found an excellent 5150II, and Wahoo!. And haven't touched the Tonex since.

[@Joejoe-nt3gc]

I love my tonex… plain said❤ive finally able to hear how other amps sound like with my pedals and been quite inspired without spending thousands of dollars on amp.

[@007bennett]

@@Doc-zg3xm Yeah and now with the ToneX One that makes even more sense. So good for a small little practice board setup.

[@poulwinther]

By far best digital media I've tried (and that's about all of them). Maybe Rhett should try and "just plugin my tube amp" and get a great tone here at my place at apartment volume!

[@ThemFuzzyMonsters]

I’ll give you a tip. Get a tube distortion pedal and use it in front as a substitute of the gain in the ToneX. It will feel like a real amp and sound exactly the same. This trick works with any modeler. I use a BK Butler Tube Driver.

[@marceloSDMF]

sometimes i feel like is easy for some who has a ton of valve amps to find "problems" on less expansive solutions.

[@poulwinther]

And not only that, but actual studio spaces where they can blow up said amps.

[@SyntheticFuture]

They have to or their thousands of dollars invested into their amps and systems lose value.

[@StratsRUs]

The You Tube 'Game' is toxic now.Clickbaits and thumbnails made all these rich Zombies. Realworld playing music is not their thing now.

[@GuitarBard96]

Jason Sadites has amazing videos on input trim for tonex. he did the actual level measurements, and in his study the best setting for tonex is -3 db, and it should not change per guitar, just adjust gain on amp to taste. it’s working perfectly for me on my tonex one, just spreading the good word 🙏

[@Qwitsoender]

I thought that you couldn’t go below 0db on the input trim, because that would be the obvious solution to the problem in the video. Thanks for confirming.

[@GuitarBard96]

@@Qwitsoender you definitely can ☺️

[@StoneXue]

Yep, and it worked for me too when watching this I kept thinking "Just go down a wee bit more there buddy and you will discover gold"

[@dasczwo]

ok, send it to me. i wanna capture my 50s kitchen tube radio. wish it was gainier… have you tried backing off the amp gain a tad before capturing?

[@mrquarkful]

Any indication whether that -3 db input trim is meant to be the same for the tonex app/plugin, the tonex pedal, and the tonex one pedal?

[@worshiptutorials]

Your results are interesting when it comes to gain staging for sure. I've captured about 50 amps so far on both TONEX and QC, and I find them both to be nearly exactly the same as the amp's actual settings, but it took me a bit of time to get there. In my experience, Quad Cortex often comes in with a bit less gain than the amp itself, so I've often compensated for that by either turning the gain on the amp up just a tiny bit before capturing (as opposed to how I compare it), or I've adjusted the In1 and In2 levels to try and compensate for it, although those level settings don't seem to make a ton of difference in the gain of the capture. For TONEX, there have been two things that have helped... First, in the TONEX pedals, there is an 'Input Trim' setting that can have a huge impact, but I don't think that would have come into play in your tests here, and I'm sure you and Michael set that up. I think by default IK had (or had?) it set at like +8dB, and I have to put mine at around 0dB on the pedal for it to sound and react like the actual amp. But during the capture process, I had to really get picky with the attenuation setting on the TONEX Capture box. I have found a sweet spot on the dial for my particular setup (and admittedly the routing and signal path I have set up here is overly complicated). For me, I have to set it around 1:30 on the dial. But I have found that I need to adjust it from amp to amp to get the gain staging correct. So after writing all this, I suppose I'd agree that these things can be a bit overly complicated to get a 100% spot on capture, but with enough experimentation it's been really reliable for me. But I guess if you're a person capturing a ton of amps, all this testing and adjusting is worth the time investment. If you're a player just wanting to capture the amp (or few amps) you own so you can play the captures live, it could be really frustrating. Always enjoy the content, Rhett (and Michael)!. And to both of you guys - I also enjoy the music you all make outside of KZbin.

[@poulwinther]

I haven't captured myself but all the ones I've heard have been much closer than this. In fact Leo Gibson proves how ToneX is the must exact of them all, except maybe the NAM.

[@Ubi-o]

Dang nice to see worship tutorials here

[@47Jonesy]

"Who is this for?" Poor people, rhett. Poor people.

[@sub-jec-tiv]

Aka vast majority of musicians, even working ones.

[@morganghetti]

People who dont have rich fathers to buy them 335sband boutique amps

[@bardsamok9221]

I owned a kemper (sold) and own valve amps, and ToneX is a keeper, Kempers sound bad.

[@RoxanneSturgis]

that doesnt disprove anything he said in the video, just because its for poor people doesnt mean the tonex doesnt have design flaws.

[@gonebymidnight2881]

AHAHA

[@johnmorganbryan]

We need to talk about clickbait titles (there’s a problem)

[@godofspacetime333]

Not exactly clickbait if he spends the entire video talking about tonex and the problem he’s having with it. I also don’t see how he could condense that problem into a phrase short enough for a video title.

[@LesSand75]

Captioning your comments while you play is also an EXCELLENT idea. It makes listening to your performance an even more impactful learning experience. Keep it up!

[@JeremyAndersonBoise]

This was the most important part of this video, for me. 🎉

[@longnailsareok]

i loved this too.

[@simondavid2519]

editing rhett discovering face deformation filter is pure gold

[@davidschwartzguitar]

Based off of my experience with the Tonex pedal, here are some things to try that might be helpful: 1. Use the test riffs from the Tonex software when dialing in the tone of your real amp--not your guitar's signal. After the the capture process is complete, use the Preset Gain parameter (NOT the Global Input Trim) to get the desired gain level for whatever guitar you're using. 2. Speaking of gain, if the Tone Model has a greater amount of gain than the real amp, as noted in this video, it's likely that in the Global Input Trim is too high. Also make sure that all the parameters on the pedal are set to default (at the 12:00 position.) 3. The reason why captures take so long, especially on Macs, is that Tonex leverages the GPU during the capture process. On Windows systems with specific NVIDIA cards, the capture time can be as low as 15 minutes using advanced training. 4. There is a big difference, at least to my ears, between using normal and advanced training. All of my normal captures are dull in the high end in comparison to my advanced captures. This isn't necessarily a bad thing depending on your needs, but the extra training time is worth it if you absolutely need the most accurate capture.

[@keithbenedict8764]

These are the conclusions I came to as well. The input trim isn't all that useful, IMO.

[@SeanAllocca]

I love my ToneX One because I don't need to do captures I just download great captures others do for us.

[@jrm2fla]

Similar to what you can do with Spark… though I get that Spark is the consumer version of that kind of system…

[@SeanAllocca]

@@jrm2fla I love my Spark Mini for my practice travel rig and buying used gear where you meet the dude in a parking lot and need and amp to test it.

[@digitalchris6681]

Using other peoples captures doesn't remove the difficulty setting gain levels to achieve the intended tone....

[@fndrr42]

@@digitalchris6681 - I haven’t had that issue at all. The gain levels are preset once you purchase the capture.

[@6stringcodger450]

How is the reverb in the One? Choices, Room, plate etc. Everyone comments on all the other stuff but have not heard anything about reverb.

[@darwinsaye]

I’ve noticed *a lot* of people talk about digital modelling and profiling as if they’re the same thing, and it only furthers the public’s misunderstanding. Digitally modelling an amp is like analyzing all the aspects of a real hardware amp and recreating them and all their behaviours with software emulations . Profiling takes a “snapshot” of the sound of an amplifier at a specific setting. Two entirely different things. The Tonex is not a modeller.

[@florisvanlingen]

I'm sorry the Tonex is also a modeller. I believe when you buy it, it comes loaded with Amplitube amp modeling. Of course you can and should upload some good 3rd party captures.

[@Ic3Ang3l]

@@florisvanlingen you are not able to load the amplitube amps into tonex, you can only use the software with it. So sorry, youre wrong. The Tonex is only a capture/profiling machine.

[@taurushamilton2739]

@@Ic3Ang3l🤯

[@billsybainbridge3362]

Actually, both methods are a form of modeling, in the scientific sense - they create an analogous Transform via an algorithm, which at the Math level IS modeling. 🤔

[@Newnodrogbob]

@@Ic3Ang3lhe didn’t say you could load amplitude amps on it. He was saying that he thought maybe the amps that came on it were amplitude amps. The point is that they are modeled amps, not captures. Edit: I don’t know if that’s right or wrong. I just know that you weren’t accurately addressing his statement.

[@fndrr42]

I think the percentage of people buying the TONEX to capture their own amps is extremely low. I have a TONEX and haven’t even entertained the idea of capturing any of my sub $1500 amps, it’s just not why most people are buying these 😂.

[@bensheppard7361]

Came here to say this. I buy high quality captures and couldn’t be happier. 😊

[@gregsteffey1266]

I guess I am the odd one then. The only reason I switched was to model my real amps. 😂

[@fndrr42]

@@gregsteffey1266 - I mean I’m sure there are plenty. I’m thinking the mass appeal with the Tonex one is primarily not going to be that market though. Even then, how many amps are you modeling? Minor headache at the beginning but unless you have some massive studio you are trying to catalog then it’s not that big of a deal.

[@gregsteffey1266]

@@fndrr42 I agree with you. I will probably only ever do a few of my own and maybe a couple of friends amps. For me it’s worth the time and money to even just model one amp if it sounds, feels and reacts to my pedals the same as my 66 Princeton. I have yet to find a capture that sounds anything like my amp.

[@quiksilver78]

The point was that even others capturing amps leaves a lot to be desired so what type of 'interpretation' of the amp you're trying to use are you really getting? Then there's the endless parade of different captures, whose is best? Personally, I just need a Twin Reverb and AC30 but who supposedly/arguably/subjectively makes the best capture? You probably would have to go through all of them and pick the one you like best. That alone can take an awful long time; time that could've been better spent playing.

[@stevedurrant8815]

Firstly, I love your videos .I have been using Tonex pedal and Tonex and love it .I personally have over 50 tone captures up on ToneNet .I don't use the tonex capture box,just my Focusrite 18i8 ,I think you have over complicated the whole process .It's not that complex .With levels, I just try not to run it too hot during the capture process. Not every capture will be perfect for everyone, but I personally wouldn't swap it for anything.

[@garrysimmons111]

Sounds like you need to watch some of Jason Sadites videos. He's gone in deep on how to set your levels with Tonex. I just set the global input trim on my Tonex One to -3 per Jason's advice and use great sounding captures that others have done. I don't have a basement full of great amps, but I have a bunch of great amp captures that I could never afford loaded into a tiny pedal that costs less than $200. Winner!

[@chadfayrobinson7537]

Thanks for great videos!! This is the best sounding example of the Tone X. These companies are getting so good at this. But I hear something in the high frequencies that sounds plastic but when playing chunky rhythms it sounds great. I will keep my tube amps no software needed!!!

[@marcohermans3207]

There is no problem! Watch videos of Jason Sadites about this subject. He has lots and lots of videos about this. They certainly help me with the whole capturing process and after that I never had problems with gain differences, but it takes some calibration....

[@StratsRUs]

He's a great guide and teacher and I don't see a clickbait addiction with Jason either.

[@marcohermans3207]

@@StratsRUs , I don't say he isn't a great teacher or guide. But there is no problem with the Tonex if you follow some basic understanding about gain levels and calibration of your audio interface. Jason was a co-developer in the early days of the Tonex system. I think he knows a thing or two about how Tonex works.

[@uwedasler425]

For most guitars with "normal", passive, medium output pickups, you should start playing / re-amping the Tonex software or pedal with input trim somewhere between -3 and -4 dB with current software / firmware versions - the pedal MUST be adjusted from its default, which is in the area of +8 dB, if you want a "natural" response and dynamics. If all you want is maximum gain, compression, and no dynamics, the default should work :-) The defaults will also work well with an original Charlie Christian pickup (

[@tah5w]

This is only an issue if you have the mentality of having to get exact captures of your own amps. I simply just go on tonenet once every couple weeks, audition rigs, favorite the ones I like, and within a few months have the best of the best at my finger tips. It takes a little effort given that probably 80% of the captures are not good, however, once you find those diamonds in the rough, it's set and forget time- you now have access to tones that would cost tens of thousands of dollars to buy, for a few hundred.

[@toolittle7204]

ToneX sounds great, however tonenet and the tonex software are undoubtedly the worst UI I have ever experienced. 'Most popular by week' as the only popularity filtering feature is simply insane given how tiny those numbers are. Maybe once Tonenet gets 100x more users that'll be a viable filter

[@tommyiwanow8289]

Still getting the hang of dialing in the tones. Find that some far better than others. Running Tonex within Loopy and have been using the volume within Tonex and saving presets to normalize volumes.

[@MarcosRobertoDosSantosJF]

@@toolittle7204I agree. Tonex UI is lame.

[@TheOligoclonalBand]

I am not a touring musician so I have the luxury of using what I like. Although I still have space constraints at home and the family may not appreciate me blasting my 4x12". So I found out that my different preamps through either a Torpedo CAB or through my Engl rackmounted amp into a Torpedo X is the best of both worlds. 50/50 tube and digital. Works great for me.

[@polypedals]

Loudness, volume and gain are really complicated. One of the key challenges is that volume and loudness are different, so sometimes volume peak meters are tell you something totally different than a LUFS meter, because sometimes the louder amp has less volume. Impedance also introduces some complications. This is super fiddly if you can't script / automate it but I find measuring multiple points on input vs output level is handy, so you can see they both start to compress at the same point.

[@christopherfrench9715]

Thanks for proving to me my tele through almost any tube amp and a half dozen pedals is all I’ll ever need.

[@markdavich5829]

I'm not a professional, and save for my vintage twin, I'm not comparing amps to the modeling app I use, (it's available to me but I don't use Tonex) but since the last modeling video pointing out input gain issues, I've had a much easier time getting tones I actually like. So much so that I wonder if I'll ever plug my beloved amp in again - The versatility is mind-blowing.

[@guitarcd]

Yeah, this is my live rig now: HX Effects with the Tonex pedal in loop 1. This is after having a decades long love hate relationship with tube amps (love the sound, hate the reliability and upkeep) this is what i use now, and I get tons of guitarists checking out my rig, asking what I use, etc. There are a few tutorials out there for setting the input gain (Jason Sadonites had the first one I used) I really believe that's central to the "User error" that's giving you the difference in capture vs real connection. I've never had the patience to do captures myself (I've also owned a Kepmper and very briefly had a Quad Cortex) I just want basic amp types (pushed Fender, Marshall low and high gain, Vox Ac, Dumble/Fuchs/TwoRock, etc.) so I guess I'm using it as a more versatile/complicated Strymon Iridium with captures already done by people with better studios and amps than mine.

[@gbrt9569]

A Tonex pedal and a set of Amalgam Captures and im in heaven .

[@ericparisot9487]

Came for this, nothing to add ! Got a nice boutique tube amp but no mics to capture it, and I live in a flat so instead I play a 100W Plexi trough Tonex, my neighboors don't know about it but they are happy anyway !

[@ProGoTones]

so far, they make the only ones I can use on a gig, but ONLY using third-party IRs.

[@ericparisot9487]

@@ProGoTones absolutely !

[@amalgamaudioLV]

Thanks man, glad our stuff works for you!

[@Scoots1994]

Michael nailed it. If you have to do a bunch of different tones, particularly with significantly different instruments in a gig but you want multiple amps then even with the extra work it's hard to beat the ToneX. There are a bunch of options for sure and not all of them are equal, so I think, for me, it comes down to what is, hard as it is to say, good enough. Ideally I have friends to help me drag my heavy and loud gear around and a place to play that lets it be really loud, but that ideal is getting rare these days.

[@sureshrandawa]

Been using the tonex one for a couple of months. Experimenting with the gain at different stages helps a lot. For me, once I finally set the output of my audio interface to the right level, my captures started matching the sound of the actual amp extremely well. Yes, it takes patience. It takes numerous captures and experimenting to start getting it right. I prefer to capture with slightly more gain as opposed to less gain and roll back the preset gain slightly on the pedal if needed. The platform is not perfect but I've yet to have issues where I needed to reinstall the app. Sometimes killing the app and resetting/unplugging my audio interface is needed, but that's the same for a number of guitar/audio apps I've used in the past. For $180 and using hardware I already own (audio interface, attenuator), I've made captures of my gear that sound great and are very close to the real thing.

[@karlkitchen1382]

I picked up a Tonex pedal a little over a year ago and yeah, I've noticed the same issues you did. The biggest thing that attracted me to the Tonex platform was the pedal's ability to model (mimic? emulate? copy?) the tone of pretty much any amp you can name. I also noticed the same issue with the Tonex pedal that I've noticed with every piece of digital gear I've ever owned: the stock/factory presets often range from not-quite-right to outright garbage. Yeah, it took some serious work, but I was finally able to get it where I want it. As I took a deeper dive into the ins and outs of the pedal and the software, I found myself able to craft tones I could actually use. Now it's an integral part of my ampless rig. I like the idea of being able to bring a whole truckload of amps and cabs out without having to rent a truck and hire a crew to help me lug it around. Sure, it has its drawbacks, but it has its moments once you figure it out.

[@TeamUltraSlow]

Enjoyed the video, thanks Rhett. I've had the chance to talk to Michael and he's an awesome guy! His ToneX captures sound excellent too...

[@DreidMusicalX]

I have this TONEX and its amazing actually. But, I use it with my amp through the effects return and with pedals. The only thing is in the signal chain I do all my OD's before the tonex and after the tonex, I stick in a boost, EQ, Radar Cab pedal and Mooer Preamp Gold 12 on the blue channel to really give the tonex something you will not be disappointed doing. It really brings the tonex to life and it can also act as an attenuator to bring the volumes down while at home. Then that runs into the delays and reverb them to the effects return on my Marshall amp. I have not gotten to capture any amps yet, I don't have all that gear to do so yet. But man I am really happy with Tonex.

[@MerrickGuitar]

I want to get one, but curious where this should go in the signal chain. I'm also using pedals in the effects loop (Reverb, Strymon Mobius). Any suggestions?

[@DreidMusicalX]

@@MerrickGuitar Ok bro. Pretend the TONEX is you amp. Ill keep it short to give you an idea of what you can do. From your guitar, go into you overdrive, distortion pedals, to the input of the TONEX. Then out of the tonex, into EQ Pedal, Delay, Reverb, and then out of your last pedal, into the effects loop return of your amp. NOT THE FRONT of your amplifier. No chords will run to the front of your amplifier because the return bypasses that. Just make sure you have a speaker cabinet hooked up normal to not damage your amp. That's pretty much it.

[@algorithm007ify]

Rhett, you are kind of wrong about Kemper... The tone stack is modelled these days with Liquid Profiling (for a wide variety of amps).

[@frankiewalnuts]

Record your guitar straight into your DAW so it's a DI clean signal, then drag the tonex over to change the sound, then adjust the input gain but ALSO your DAW mixer input level which will give you more scope on levels... You can drop your DAW input level and then boost the channel volume or the master volume on the amp in tonex to compensate... Obviously if you're recording into the tonex then into your DAW then you can use your pre amp and use that to adjust the input gain

[@markofdoom8063]

Rhett: transferring a preset to the computer is such a PAIN , sitting in front of the computer…what an issue Also Rhett: dialing a lot of rack units, heavy valve amps, tons of cabels… so easy

[@Yala-]

Compared to the Real World Take, both the emulations sound like they have a noticeable longer "release". In the Real World, the Take sound dies off naturally after each note is released. In the emulations, the notes continue a bit longer (after the note is released) before dying off. I'm guessing this is some sort of artificial "headroom" compensator in the software trying to accurately capture the very low levels of audio in the "released" quiet bits. Or it could be like mixing with a Parallel Bus (which uses a Compressor).

[@dennisrichards4254]

I’m tube amp guy, I’ve grown up playing them and it’s what my ear is accustomed to hearing. My Bad Cat Black Cat 30r amp my Divided by 13 ccc 9/15 together are tonal bliss for me. I do regularly play on and own a Kemper toaster and bought a ToneX One. They’re all great tools and using the right tool for the right job is important to me as a player. I play in worship environments almost exclusively so running a quiet stage is crucial. At the end of the day a tube amp running into a load box, mine are Rivera Mini Rock Crushers, is the best solution I found. Do I use and own digital solutions, absolutely, but they’re not my go to solution when 99% of the time there’s no rehearsal and limited sound check. It’s plug in and play and nail it the first time. Amps will most likely always be where I reach.

[@julianc.227]

Everything Michael said, I can confirm. I love my Silver Jubes and my SL 59 HW and so I never wanted to go fully digital/modeling. The QC and kemper never felt as good to me as the Tonex, especially because they didn't take pedals well( I use a Klon and a SD 1 for boosting). A couple points: find good captures (Michael Nielsen or Amalgam come to mind) and don't play with eq's or gain settings. Don't forget that the right IR ist crucial. My input trim is at 4db with HB.

[@amalgamaudioLV]

Thanks for bringing up amalgam, but i would STRONGLY encourage everyone to use the ToneX EQ for tweaking - it does not mess up the core texture and qualities of the sound, except when you go to extremes. But reducing bass or treble or adding a bit gain or sometimes reducing it a bit works REALLY well on captures that are made well.

[@darrinwilson8484]

I guess I've sidetracked some of this by using Amalgam Audio captures 99.9 percent of the time so there is a consistent capture process and high quality captures across the board. I do feel like playing the plugin sounds better than playing the same profiles loaded into the pedal and I cant figure out why, especially the IK presets which really do sound bad in the pedal but great direct into the lugin. Is it just in my imagination?

[@jackprice7828]

Rhett great video! I have a great deal of respect for Michael, his talent and knowledge in the guitar world. I eased into the ToneX world integrating the ToneX One into my Stomp rig. Rhett I think you nailed my frustration experience too when you said the capture levels were all over the map. I tried dozens and dozens of captures before finding two that would give me usable. BTW, the amp captures I ended up with were non IK factory captures. Having said that, the capture models I ended up with are excellent.

[@KanlydNorge]

I spent a really long time to figure this out. I ended up setting input gain on my ToneX to 0db. And I spent a long time setting the level out of my reamp box. Now I can make a capture and move it to my ToneX without any difference. I can use A/B box between the ToneX and the amp and hear no difference. Reason your getting more gain on the ToneX is that your sending too hot signal out when capturing. The input of the guitar into the recording interface has nothing to do with it. I’ve calibrated my capture process to be correct with the input gain of the ToneX set to 0db. Once you have done that it will be correct all the time.

[@davidsonck3127]

That's what I thought as well... About to capture my amps and I guess the first one will be trial and error. Once everything is set correctly it should be easy to capture all of them...

[@rubrshrk]

Thank you for another honest review. I'm sticking with my tube amps for most stuff and a Kemper (which isn't perfect) when I need to do a quick thing.

[@brianshenk6912]

What if you don’t want to capture your own amps? What if you want to download someone else’s sounds? Like the Joe Satriani pack for example. Does that work really well?

[@johnb4024]

Works great. Let the pros do the captures therefore all the hard work is already done.

[@poulwinther]

@@johnb4024 I don't have the Satch pack but you can find incredible tones within all the included amps and they exactly like playing the amps. Not like having a loud guitar cab next to you of course, but just like sitting in the recording room of a great studio and hearing your blown up rig directly through the monitors.

[@mickeygiesbers8176]

I do agree with this. I got one of the best sounds I've had out of the Tonex. Been using my Helix for 8 years, recently switched to pedals again, and Tonex as my sound source. But it took me a LONG time to find it, DEFINITELY don't bother with the stock presets 😂 And I've not captures amps myself, because I don't have any at the moment. But I've heard the process is really frustrating compared to other things.

[@LesSand75]

Man, the comparison between your capture and presets was extremely helpful. Even though I don’t have the pedal (and don’t plan to buy one), just the understanding of the _possibilities_ and applying them to my own equipment was illuminating. Thanks!

[@feedbackbro]

What are the pros and cons of mic'ing the cab vs using the output directly from the amp as the capture source signal? It seems to me that mic'ing the cab would be less ideal and more prone to creating poor results ?

[@mke7605]

Is there a possibility to try out the Neural Amp Modeller? It’s free and they claim to be more accurate than the Tonex. There is also now a pedal, called the NAMPlayer.

[@koski666]

I recently got the ToneX One, and I agree with your frustrations. The software non-control over the pedal is a huge let down, plus the presets don't sound the same between the app and the pedal. I'm really struggling to get a good output out of the pedal. It's all over the place between presets, especially if they come from different people. I bought it for a backup direct board for gigs, but I'm not sure if I will keep it.

[@paulpmanhowland7818]

@Rhett Shull - FYI, Most of the links to your courses did not work for me. The only one that worked was the one to the Fretboard Fundamentals course. The rest of them took me to a page that said "Sorry, we couldn't find that page". I was able to navigate to the courses via the All Courses page.

[@RhettShull]

Thanks for letting me know! I’ll get that fixed

[@paulpmanhowland7818]

My pleasure@@RhettShull. Happy to be of service.

[@bikergeekgd]

A good overview of the ToneX. But I don't believe that the process and roadblocks shown in this video impact most ToneX users. As a ToneX owner, I bought the hardware for economy. Nothing beats the ToneX capabilities for $399. I don't have banks of amplifiers to capture. I rely on the ToneX community for my captures (some free and some paid). A user with a real studio with patch bays and banks of amplifiers would be better served by QC or Kemper which are a completely different price point.What matters to me about the ToneX is that it sounds really good with a good capture. I have a ToneX and HX FX on my pedalboard which are a fantastic and versatile combination that costs far less than Helix, QC, or Kemper.

[@mattdylan664]

exactly how i feel, for those of us who can't currently afford to drop thousands of dollars on high end modellers and want a library of ever growing versatile quality tone on tap the Tonex and Tonex One are a dream come true

[@toolittle7204]

The main issue with ToneX in general is just the unbelievable learning curve of finding decent captures and managing the library. Going from the neural stuff to ToneX and Tonenet was like taking a time machine 30 years into the past - it does sound great, but I didn't expect so much frustration trying to get up and running (still struggling to get the reverb and compressor to sound decent as well)

[@adeptgopnik]

Do the mic pre's need to be less hot? Maybe just try doing a under gained pre? Idk what else it would be?

[@atmos4197]

Just eliminate the mic pres altogether. Way too much in his signal chain.

[@GraemeCampbellMusic]

I'm using the NUX MG30. A wee bit cheaper (I have a tight budget) but sounds fantastic for what I do. There's no capture but with the addition of Pro scenes and plenty of great IRs that can be added, its great.

[@flomuehl]

Hi, so one question: You both use the hx stomp on your boards. Why not only going with their amp section? Is it worth to use a tonex on Top?

[@nevesnow]

I've ran into the same problem, and mainly the problem was with the input gain from the sound coming back from the amp back to my interface, it's really difficult to "fine tune it", normally I go by try and error.. a bit more of input gain and it ruins the capture, too less then doesn't work either.. there is another problem with tonex, which was addressed to IK and yet not fixed. Try to make a capture from a pedal, like a tubescreamer with the gain at zero and level at max. It doesn't work, because the software thinks there is not enough signal coming through in the first 2 or 3 pulses when you click to start the procress, it displays a message that "the signal is too low", but actually not.

[@mikeoxley4458]

I saw Crowder last Summer in Duluth, MN, and the electric guitar tones were incredible! Michael must have dialed them in perfectly! I’ve played guitar since 1970, and always use a tube amp and pedalboard. Played churches for 35 years. This Tone X and other digital modelers are just too complicated for me at my 66 years. In the 90’s I used a 12 space rack system, which was pretty complicated.

[@Motosportz]

just started using Amplitube 5 SW for my DAW and am shocked how good it is. Larry Carlton to SRV to VH with amazing dynamics. Stunned how good my setup sounds.

[@SeanKerns]

The problems you're describing lineup exactly with a friend of mine's experience. He noticed the difference between the sounds in the plug-in versus the sounds in the pedal. He would set up sounds he wanted in the plug-in, and then transfer them to the pedal, only to discover that they sounded vastly different.

[@eflizotte]

Can you run pink noise at a known level (-18dBFS) thru the rig and see where the meters are changing?

[@ClintCurtis]

I feel like all modelers can work if you take the time to tweak it enough. For me, I bought the helix plugin and it took me a while to be happy with it, then I purchased the LT. Now I am 100% happy with it using mostly IR’s, I can get any sound I want.

[@martincaz7772]

To me the amp still has more headroom and/or high end, and/or "air". Notably, at the level of detail we are talking here. I'm guessing the air I hear has to do with the mic distance which are not right against the grill. Would a closer/tighter mic position lessen that difference? Just wondering.

[@TheMrCull]

Thanks guys for the video! 100 percent awesome! I bought the Tonex when it came out. Hardly use the pedal. Use the software all the time. Awesome stuff!!! I've owned Kemper, Helix, Axe III, all good to great, but love Tonex the most! Yeah, Rhett use other people's profiles, don't do it yourself... Amalgam kills on the type of amps you like.

[@jaysmoreymusic]

As a Tonex owner, I can understand and sympathize with the learning curve--and there are aspects that IK could simplify. Also, I am not a fan of the stock presets. However, so much of the frustration in this video is just understanding the pedal's gain stages (Jason Sadites has good stuff on this). I've made dozens of captures and have purchased amazing captures from sites like Amalgam Audio and Jason--and I dump them on the pedal with no issues. A/B tests are hard to hear any difference. I've run direct captures into the power amp of my Mark V into a 2x12 cab, and it sounds glorious. Spend some more time with it.

[@amalgamaudioLV]

As with everything, there is lot of experimentation needed. I consider ToneX an incredible tool. The UI could be simplified, but in the end all the capturing devices work the same, some are quite a bit more complicated than ToneX. I think ToneX hits the most sweet spots. Essential to get the tones right is to get the levels and gain staging right in all places. First of all you need to have the reamped signal to be same level as your guitars signal directly to the amp.

[@Chucksguitargeekery]

At least with the tonex one, the input trim on the pedal makes a BIG difference to the gain. You could probably just back off a little bit and get them more in-line with the real amp. That’s why I don’t approach captures as “I’m trying to get this to sound EXACTLY like the real amp.” It’s more “can I get a sound I like?” But, tonex is a learning curve, hopefully they catch up with the computer software side.

[@nvs6177]

This was my exact problem with my Tonex. Gain staging is EVERYTHING for me, especially when dialing in my overdrives. In a live situation where I can't use an amp, I just go to my UA Dream or my mini board built around my HX Stomp. I still use my amps for home recording/session stuff, but the "real amp" sound of the Tonex is not enough for me to put it above my UAFX pedals or even my Strymon Iridium.

[@robertnatiello3814]

Wow you did the captures really well. I started shaking my head right away (up and down "YES") to each amp.

[@briank9421]

Thanks Rhett, this is a really great video. I always wondered about the process and what kind of rabbit hole I'd get into with Tonex. You just confirmed my suspicions and validates why I started to go the digital/modelling route and why I stopped. Way too much trial and error. I have a pedalboard with a UAFX Dream 65 that, in my opinion, sounds killer. I can quickly EQ and dial in tones when necessary, without any headaches and frustrations; no worrying about input gain, global EQ settings, etc, etc.

[@frama7844]

I played my Kemper for about 10 years and liked it quite a bit. But it never ever got me that low-mid thuuuump I have on my Soldano Head/4x12. I´ve tried to capture that amp a lot of times and also bought lots of Soldano Profiles. A few months ago, I got Tonex just to try it and even when playing through the stock Presets. I immediately (!) found some Presets that sounded way (like... WAY!) closer to any of my self made and bought Rigs. I´m reallly happy with Tonex and sold my Kemper-Stuff. BUT: having no Editor implemented in Tonex software is really a bad joke....

[@poulwinther]

No editor but also a very different price tag.

[@mavetick3305]

The cortex i think sounded the best and yes was more gains sounding for sure. Maybe that Xtra gain is coming from your output in the interface itself?

[@robertnatiello3814]

I think you are playing different percussive notes in the demo across Real Amp to Tonex to Quad t 15:15 - it seems your missing the same perc notes on the demo when you switch to the ToneX / Quad or they are damping them out? This makes it sound grainier.

[@drumjjj777]

I love this but where do cabs live in this equation? Does the Tone X have a cab emulation?

[@lorenmorgan1931]

I would love to see how NAM compares to this now. Captures I have made sound spot on, and are easy to make. Now there is hardware and VSTs coming out with the software in it, because its open source. I really think this is the future of captures.

[@sgholt]

When the Tonex glitched out there, I kinda thought it sounded good :/ probably be my next purchase... \o/ could the gain issue be related to the automatic tone/volume feature of the pedal ?

[@tonepoet]

This is me. Toured with a group and had a Pod XT Live and TC Electronics G System. Basically ran in ears for years and stopped about 8 or 9 years ago when I started using tube amps again. Plus, I had bought a Fractal and was overwhelmed by the stupid editing of it. I never even used it live! Just bought a NuX Amp Academy (last year (which I actually love once the time to set it up is put in), a Line 6 HX Stomp, and the Tone One. I'm in ears with another group so I need that option (again). I figured the best one will rise to the top and win out. Thank God for KZbin having resources for getting back into this world.

[@VinceHalvorson]

thanks for this. Not a popular opinion, but I borrowed my brother’s Tonex and found it harsh sounding and tiring on the ears. Sticking with my Fractal and Line6.

[@Tone4sunday]

Hey Rhett, would you consider putting your captures you made on your website or available to download here? I'd love to download that orange capture.... loved it! Anyways, thanks for breaking this down, Tonex does have a few small flaws, but overall, a killer pedal!!

[@taymalloy1604]

Even a cheaper Tube amp sounds better than most digital. The tubes just sound richer, more dynamic, sounds don't cut off quickly like digital does, not perfect, warmth, etc.... just digital, as good as they have come, some how sound flat or thin. Too perfect and the sound is not there. Like no soul in it. I can definitely see the convenience of it, gets you there 80 percent, but that 20 percent missing is where the magic is. I remember a jam session, where I literally spent the whole session twiddling with the sounds on the Multi-FX unit and never finding any settings I was very happy with, instead of just playing. Lol it was a bit frustrating. I knew how to use it. Lol a good amp just seems more special to me, even if not perfect. I like the noise and feedback and all.

[@gretschfreak]

I have a Tonex One and it took me over a month but after wrapping my head around the Input Trim, I figured it out. I've played it live twice and I'm loving the results. I use a GFI Enieqma to dial it in a bit more as well.

[@danthegeetarman]

Very cool to see a crossover video. I follow both of you guys and never put two-and-two together that you are both in the same areas. Michael’s Tonex videos are very informative and his course on getting great recorded tones is really good too

[@777Yoni]

I still gig with Fender amps, but the Tonex is the first recording alternative of the many, many I have tried that consistently puts a smile on my face during playback. Tech these days is nucking futs.

[@heikopfister9739]

I guess I can't exactly shed light on the given question, but share an experience. I feel like having the exact problem with enhanced gain every time I use a loadbox and IRs as well - No capturing needed. When I compare the signal in the room to what I get in my headphones, the digital signal sounds always gainier. Never found out why - but it's not speaker breakup gainier. Would love to learn why.

[@SLO7HProductions]

I returned my Tonex, I will probably buy one used in the future because the Joe Satriani pack really got me the sound I have been looking for without having to spend lots of money. I have also been looking for a nice Mesa Boogie Mark IV sound but I have been unable to find one I really like, even the paid ones doesn't quite get there. I have never owned a tube amp, I have always used Axe FX, and before that I had solid state amps. I recently got myself a Mesa Boogie Mark IV rev B, and I couldn't be happier. I just use the amp paired with a Torpedo Captor 8 ohm as a load box, and my Axe FX for effects and IR. But if I wanted to I could have just bought Captor X and loaded some IR onto that and then bring a few pedals. When people rave about Tonex saying it's so nice not having to drag truckloads of gear with them I just think, is it that bad? I mean you can just skip the part about bringing a speaker cabinet if you use a load box with IR, there are hundreds of IR out there so you will find one you like, then you just need to drag your amp, loadbox and something for the effects you prefer. It's not that much gear. I was also not impressed by the noise gate or the reverb on the Tonex. There is also something about the way the Tonex behaves when playing that I don't like. I can't quite put my finger on it, keep in mind this was before I had tested a tube amp so I coulnd't compare it to a previous tube amp experience, only stuff I have heard on youtube.

[@emmaleach5679]

I love my ToneX. Great sounds, affordable, flexible and so portable when compared with my Brunetti and PRS amps.

[@michaelkaufmann2729]

Some good points, but how often do you capture your amps? I can live with it. Once done, i really appreciate the sound and the "light" way of carrying your amps with you.

[@TedfordKnives]

What can Tonex do for my Gibson SJ?? Is it all about the electric guitar?

[@jasnh868]

Am I incorrect, or did you set up your Orange with your guitar, then use the "hotter" riffs to do the capture? That would make the gain on the finished capture slightly more overdriven.

[@bluematrix5001]

Rhet, I think you should simplify your capture chain to the MINIMUM first and see if that issue repeats itself, if not will be easier to find where is the problem, but also can be the converters I/O settings for this task

[@amalgamaudioLV]

Great video Rhett. The advanced setting, though takes ages to train, brings the captures to the next level and give you exactly more of the stuff that you are missing - more highs, detail, texture. ToneX and nothing else (apart from NAM with some more advanced and therefore extremely resource hungry models) does not get every detail from the Power Amp fizz, which is a part of that brightness that gets lost. In advanced training it does retain some of that though. ToneX tends to roll of the highs a bit, QC tends to have brighter and MORE dynamic results than the reference. In ToneX you can adjust the gain manually when comparing reference to capture - it is called trim control. The reamp device you use is crucial and the levels you put into the amp.

[@allenkennedy6748]

I used to run a guitar store back in the day.. I found this video more instructive than most other sources. I value your opinion, especially when you label a statement as an opinion. Plus having Michael counterpoint and identify his opinions gives this a chance at objectivity. Suggestion for another video: talk through how your switching works I.e. how programs are loaded and how you physically move from one to another. Personally I would want to know what amp you’re playing through with modeling. Is it set up flat? How do other touring players get where they are going on stage.

[@jaydenanderson53]

Rhett do you have any quad cortex captures? Could be cool

[@djencode]

So I have some thoughts. 1. I run into the same issue with the plugin sounding different than the pedal and I wonder if it's a difference in impedance, rather than gain settings. I'm also using UA hi-z input. Maybe a DI box would yield a different result? 2. With regards to capturing, I just don't bother. I didn't with Kemper, I didn't with Quad Cortex and I don't with Tonex. No matter what it's a pain unless you have an expensive setup. 3. When I'm using the Tonex, I'm not looking for it to match my amp, or someone else's amp. I'm looking for a tone, and I dial based on that. I have really good Dumble/Orange/Soldano captures I use and I dial them for what I want, edge of breakup clean, crunch that's fuzz friendly for doom, and high gain modern metal. I'm not surfing captures or trying to get the most accurate capture, I'm just looking at it as a tool to serve a purpose.

[@Bhallmed]

I use the radial reamp box and that allows me to dial back the hotness of the level from the modeling signals

[@samknaak]

Do you run the Tone X to a direct input in the interface? Or does it need a preamp to get enough signal?

[@rianelliott1]

Great video. I echo some of the other comments in that I think most of the people buying Tonex (like me) are doing this and using other people’s captures instead of buying amps. I only play direct in my situation and wanted a stereo setup with lots of options…I don’t even own an amp. Running a dual Matchless rig like I am would costs thousands, but now I have it for less than $600 (running a Tonex and Tonex One), and I can change it whenever I want. I think most Tonex owners are using it this way with their traditional pedals, and for folks like us, this tool is perfect. If we want to get to your level of control, we know we’ll need to drop a ton of cash on our own gear and maybe then we’ll reconsider. But for now, this was the perfect solution and I love it.

[@Funkybassuk]

I tried to take in every part of the signal chain but got lost - did you have a reamp box from your Apollo line out? I’m not a hardcore recording guy but your line level signal from the Apollo would be a lot hotter into the front of your amp than the guitar plugged straight in.

[@lespaul2550]

I think he was using the "IK Multimedia TONEX Capture Tone Modeler and Re-amp Box" which does have a re-amp box built in. It's "Line Input" would be connected to the Line Output of the interface which gets converted to an instrument level signal for the front of the amp.

[@chrismarcyy]

Is there a good alternative for the power cable that it comes with? the one it has is very cheap and i have horrible gound noise when i unplug the usb cable and try to use it live.

[@youKnowWho3311]

I have a tonex and love it. Basically the guy that had it before me had a Dumble model loaded. I run gain pedals through that and into a Duncan power stage. Then into 2 different cabs v30 loaded and cream/greenbacks, and I'm done. Never been happier. Note, lots of stuff about tonex on the Studio Rats channel. Basically indistinguishable to my ear.

[@tozguitar]

Shouldn't it be connected to frfr speaker? as in like a PA speaker?

[@Ren-X]

Is this the only way to make a capture, or just how you have chosen to do it?

[@bauerma4]

Honest question - aren’t most people buying a budget modeler / capturer like ToneX going to be using the provided and/or buying a couple of others captures? If the amp in your arsenal is a Blues Jr you’re probably not going to be capturing it 🤷🏼‍♂️?

[@davidsonck3127]

Tonex is frustrating but you got a similar result on the QC?

[@protoolsfanatic7276]

1 good cable, 1 good amp, and 1 good guitar and your volume knob to control the gain sounds best sometimes.

[@giosundance5643]

So you don’t have a tuner?

[@jroobz]

not experienced this with my tonex one. sounds great and v similar to my jcm800 running through the same IR

[@dekofschipper8412]

The biggest advantage of this profiling approach is that I can now capture my 100 Watt JCM 900 Marshall and have it sound like the speakers on my laptop. I never was able to do this in the past .