Weak Forms in Pride & Prejudice

[@andrewclarke5989]

You turned Pride and Prejudice into the King's Speech

[@CotnerMD]

underrated coment🤣

[@VV_PaVria]

I can't believe you've done this.

[@KathrynFritze]

Ahahaha

[@TerezatheTeacher]

As my Czech students would say: "But he DID NOT SAY the words! I didn't HEAR them!" Czech people get very distressed when told "where" and "were" are not exactly the same thing. I've just graded an essay full of "we where in a zoo".

[@larrytruelove8659]

In the video, the titled words were reduced. It’s a phenomena that few English speakers are aware of. “Were” is somewhat reduced but I can’t think of any examples in which “where” is reduced. I don’t know if that observation helps or not. I have some ESL students whose first language is Spanish. I haven’t yet discussed there, their and they’re.

[@TerezatheTeacher]

@@larrytruelove8659 I know. I have a few clips from British or American TV series with the question "Where were you?" that I play in class after asking the students to listen to the first 2 words and tell me if they're the same. It works, but unfortunately, in our school, some adult students only have 2 years of 90 minutes of English per week to get from A0 to B1. It's very demanding and there isn't enough time for practising pronunciation. I do my best with what little time I can get.

[@TerezatheTeacher]

@@larrytruelove8659 I love writing their, there and they're on the board and telling the students to listen and then pinpoint the difference between the 3 pronunciations. Then I pronounce the same thing 3 times. They get agitated and shout that there's no difference. Then I tell them that Native speakers say it right because they learnt the pronunciation first, so they mess up the spelling, and that Czechs get the spelling right but mispronounce at least two of the words (as "deyr"). They find it amusing.

[@larrytruelove8659]

@@TerezatheTeacher For “th” sounds, Spanish speakers have similar “th” sounds in “d” and the “s” sound of European Spanish. I’m not good at describing tongue positions in Spanish.

[@HamishGarland]

English isn't the only language where this happens, but I believe English is particularly bad because we have so many small words we weaken that are written as their own separate entity. Compare this to a languge like Portuguese where the end vowels of words are commonly weakened to the point they are barely audible, try to copy a native speaker and they will say that you have missed part of the word, yet listen carefully to them and the sound is so weak that it practically doesn't exist to a non-native speaker.

[@nicholaswright9197]

Barbara Leigh-Hint’s performance of Lady Catherine on the other hand seems to emphasise strong forms as part of her obnoxiousness. “Eez that mye nephyeeww? Whe’ah hahz heee beeen!?”

[@StevenDCook-rl5dg]

Let him come in and explain himself.

[@HamishGarland]

Now I want to watch Pride and Prejudice again.

[@andyharpist2938]

Do you mean BBC's 2022 remake version: Jane Austin's "Gay Pride and Homophobia" ?

[@alexrafe2590]

If you haven’t already, watch the BBC’s earlier adaptation from 1980. It’s so much better than this version. It’s not as visually sumptuous or polished, but the things that count, the directing, the casting, the performances put the 90s version in the shade. Fay Weldon’s adaptation of the script is far superior than Andrew Davies’ version.

[@sarahberney]

I love Colin Firth's English

[@teddyroon]

Me too but then I just love Colin Fifth full stop😀

[@sarahberney]

@@teddyroon I hear you 😄 did you see Operation Mincemeat?

[@davidwelty9763]

The interesting thing about actress Jennifer Elle is that she was born and raised in North Carolina and speaks in real life in an American accent. Her British accent is perfect. Her mother of course is British. She can change between the two with ease.

[@funkyfranx]

She was raised back and forth between both countries. At the time of filming P&P if you watch talk show interviews with her, she speaks in an English accent

[@ezb6798]

My favorite example of weak forms that confuse non-native speakers is “Ahmahnuh” (emphasis on first syllable). This translates to “I am going to…” It’s made even harder to understand by the fact that the whole thing is unstressed in the context of the sentence: “Ahmana go HOME now.” “Ahmana visit MARy next week.” Of course, English is not alone in this characteristic. French speakers swallow up all sorts of sounds, including a number of syllables so weak that they aren’t pronounced at all anymore, such as the third-person plural verb endings and the “ne” of the negative formation “ne … pas.”

[@RaunienTheFirst]

When I was learning French in school (nearly 20 years ago) we definitely pronounced the "ne" in "ne...pas". Is this a recent phenomenon or were we taught dictionary French instead of French as it is actually spoken?

[@ezb6798]

@@RaunienTheFirst It’s how French is actually spoken these days. I am not sure how long ago it started. But in any case, in language classes, they typically teach the correct, formal version of the language rather than the current, informal version.

[@robsadob1594]

Better yet, where I’m from we often shorten it further to “Imma” (pronounced ahmma)

[@reidleblanc3140]

English gets crazy with these. to be fair I don't know other languages and I'm sure it happens in those, but... when I listen to my professor who cuts nearly all vowels and slurs all words into one giant word, even cuts out entire words or replaces them with hsnfbhsgmsh... I can't imagine English learners would have any idea what he's saying

[@saguarenh2220]

Actually the reason why "ne" is disappearing in French is because of Jespersen's cycle, not because French folk swallow up entire syllables. Which we do, of course. An example I think of is question form "qu'est-ce que...?", sometimes pronounced "kess".

[@eleanorchapple8772]

That was hilarious! Elizabeth was not impressed!

[@Keehaar]

that eyeroll at the end 🙄😆

[@adriftingboat]

To me the most beautiful voice in RP English belonged to actor Ian Richardson . Could you use him as an example of enunciation in a video ? What do you think about the voice of the late actor, Alan Howard , my other favourite ?

[@DrGeoffLindsey]

I must revisit Alan Howard. But Ian Richardson was wonderful. Coincidentally he and Colin Firth played the same role in "Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy". I think both of them were great.

[@davidmcfaul7595]

This series rocks

[@malcolm_in_the_middle]

This is very interesting! All of the examples you've shown so far are in Received Pronunciation or Posh English. Could you explore the other accents as well? Especially non-British ones like southern African, Australian and American?

[@RivkahSong]

For a great example of this in American English the youtube channel Rachel's English did a video called Study English | American English Pronunciation | What Makes American English SO FAST? where she broke down a scene from Friends where Rachel is almost incomprehensible to non native speakers but we natives can understand her perfectly due to being so used to weak forms (she calls it reduction).

[@relax_enjoy_English]

IMO he makes his teaching point about weak vowel forms better with RP accents because rightly or wrongly they're considered to have more prestige.

[@ramamonato5039]

Indonesians do not employ weak forms when speaking English, all spoken being strong forms. Our native language is syllable-timed. So, we have never expected weak forms, except for the ones which are usually written in dialogue scripts, such as 'm, 's and 'll. English is just written and read by heart here. No one speaks it in my country.

[@christophercooper6731]

Mr Arsey!!!

[@valkyriesardo278]

What interest me about this example is why the sound of Firth's speech remains so appealing despite the imperfections.

[@funkyfranx]

They're not imperfections! Weak forms are an inherent part of English! kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5K7ipSpap2SocU

[@Arkylie]

Pretty sure some of these would've been written as contractions rather than full words. Still, very interesting clip!

[@nigelogilvie9450]

"Aborrence"?? It's abhorrence. there's an "H" in there. "Lo, he abhors not the virgin's womb".

[@pinklady7184]

Honestly, I much prefer the older-schooled RP speech that is more distinct than today's, especially spoken on telephone. . "But" is pronounced as /bʌt/, not /bət/; "of" as /ɔf/, not /əf/ Today, we hear today's RP words that sound confusing to older-schooled elocutionists from the past. For example, your today's RP speakers say "I'll buy nine" as /ʌɪl bʌɪ nʌɪ/. To me on the phone, it sounds like "oil, boy, none (or nun)." How confusing!

[@kingprince3975]

I don't speak like this and I'm a native. I say every word clearly and loudly like a proud Brit should. people who swallow their words are damn disgraces.

[@kopecci9678]

Truly, heartfelt, I don't believe you. Without weak forms you cannot pronounce English in a natural metre. You would sound like a space alien, or like you're trying to relay ikea instructions to a partially deaf person down a tin can telephone.

[@nicolesong6199]

What part of Britain are you from? Surely you don’t speak RP or whatever, are you a social outcast? (Love from, an Australian)

[@TerezatheTeacher]

Yes, and my students from Czechia routinely start mispronouncing the words "panenka" (doll) and "maminka" (mum) after I tell them they can and do pronounce the English "ng" sound because it's a sound found in many Czech words, like the two examples. These native speakers will argue with me and start mispronouncing common words. Learning about something that someone has done automatically for decades can be a real surprise, and the brain may deny it's ever done the thing it's been doing. It's like when you're walking and notice you've been swinging your arms and your body cannot compute and messes up the rhythm. Weak forms are an integral part of English. If they weren't, nobody would feel any difference between "I can swim." and "I CAN (!!) swim!" (Stop saying I can't!).

[@kingprince3975]

@@nicolesong6199 I speak RP AND I say every word clearly and loudly and deliberately and affirmatively and I'm a social outcast chad.

[@rogerstone3068]

Dear King Prince, old chap, you know 'damn' is a verb. You need 'damned' if you wish to use it as an adjective.

[@alexrafe2590]

Sorry, when you chose the BBC’s mid ‘90s production of Pride and Prejudice you completely over rode my concern about your topic, English weak forms and how these are expressed among English speakers. I know this version benefited from more money spent on it with more lavish costumes and filmed in actual great houses. And the odd thing is I really like a lot of the cast, both central characters and lesser figures. Having done a bit of acting at the amateur level I know how central the director is in how characters behave. So I place a lot of my disappointment at how the characters were directed. Julia Sawalha must have loved playing silly ridiculous Lydia, after having to be silly self absorbed Edina’s censorious introverted daughter, but even ridiculous characters in Austen function within the constraints of her style and age. Lydia in this production was unhinged and REALLY annoying. And therefore not even slightly amusing. Colin Firth was subdued rather than quietly commanding as David Rintoul expertly played Darcy in the 1980 version. He projected his confidence and sense of superiority quietly but clearly in a way Firth never got near to doing. Above all, the 1980 version benefited from Fay Weldon’s brilliant adaptation of the novel that Andrew Davies never came close to matching. Weldon’s version captured the sense of playful irony that was the essence of Austen’s style. She also captured the amusement and enjoyment of watching the absurdities of others in social situations, like parties and dances that Lizzie derived from observing them, and her dialogue gave Elisabeth Garvie the tools to play it. Poor Jennifer Ehle often looked stranded with over serious lines and directions that robbed her of the enjoyment and amusement Lizzie showed watching her absurd cousin Mr Collins, or Lady De Burrgh, or Kitty. And Weldon would often brilliantly place many of the observations made by the narrator in the book into the mouths of characters in order to project the tone, and mood that Austen would write to literally set the stage to advance the story. So she succeeded far better in bringing the novel and the characters to life and the sense of comic irony that characterises so much of Austen’s work than Davies managed. The earlier adaptation is not as visually eye catching as the 90’s version, with most of the scenes played on stages. It’s clear that it had a much more modest budget. But the brilliance of the ensemble work between the main characters and between them and supporting characters is excellent, almost without exception. Everyone in practically every role played their parts beautifully. Elizabeth Garvie and David Rentoul brought Elizabeth and Darcy and the evolving romance and their relationship to vivid life in a way I never experienced or felt engaged by in the ‘90s adaptation. Alison Steadman had a lot to live up to in trying to exceed Priscilla Morgan’s matchless Mrs Bennet. Sadly the script didn’t help her come even close. Joanna David did a very good job playing Lizzie’s favourite Aunt Gardener, if only Barbara Shelley hadn’t really shone in the role first. She was perfect. Of course I recognise that being so impressed by the earlier version probably went some way to make it more difficult to appreciate the later version on its own merits. But I do think that if it had really come close to matching the earlier version I would have been able to come round to it to some extent. I think the reason that didn’t happen was because either Davies or the director Simon Langton missed in trying to capture the tone of sophisticated irony that infused so much of Austen’s work. And which Weldon proved so adept at doing in her adaptation.