Weaver? Chapman? Isosceles? Why Understanding Context Matters (ASP BITs)

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Attitude. Skills. Plan.

[@jcfindley380]

Fascinating history. My alphabet agency taught Iso but we didn't use body armor. The problem with Iso is it isn't a stable fighting position if the aggressor goes hands on so I quickly just adapted my shooting stance to my empty hand fighting stance. That has worked for platform shooting for me for a long time but I prefer to move and shoot in which case stance doesn't matter even a little. Grip does though.

[@soapninja]

I'm cross eye dominant and discovered the Chapman position through trial and error. Really cool to hear your take on it.

[@MarsTheProgrammer]

Same here!

[@jona5517]

Ditto

[@HenTie_Lord]

Same here, it was the most comfortable and natural position for me as well.

[@cariboulou3572]

Honestly don't think I'll never not use modified weaver stance, I personally feel much more in control. And can suppress the most the recoil.

[@jona5517]

Same

[@benb5960]

Great video. The problem with isosceles is how especially new shooters apply it. Invariably they lean back. That’s why it’s good to drop your strong leg back and head over toes.

[@DTruth370]

Another good video John, good information that the masses needed to hear, and great job on bringing out that it's all about the principals of gun handling and not imitation of others.

[@MarsTheProgrammer]

Just started shooting this year, I only knew about the isosceles and that is what my friends and trainers at the range showed me. After a few sessions i did the chapman on my own without knowing who he was or that it was a technique because I'm cross eyed dominate (right handed/left eyed). They were also trying to convert me into a lefty, so if you are a beginner try a bunch of stuff and see what works best for you.

[@antoniobaskerville6823]

Great Teaching and Learning Video. I love the weaver stance because i have a injured shoulder. ❤ Thanks Again.

[@brianjuergensmeyer8809]

I was discussing this with an instructor several years ago, who was very much against both the Weaver and Chapman because you're invariably going to limit your transitions to your weak side just because you run out of range of motion. His point was that you generally have about 180 degrees or so of range of motion in your hips (save some sort of permanent disability or injury). By dropping back into a Weaver or Chapman, you're shifting the center point of that range at least 45 degrees to your strong side. If your target is in front of you and runs the other way, it'll be difficult to keep up with him once you reach that limit. It made sense to me.

[@papimaximus95]

"By dropping back into a Weaver or Chapman, you're shifting the center point of that range at least 45 degrees to your strong side. If your target is in front of you and runs the other way, it'll be difficult to keep up with him once you reach that limit." Get some training! Easily fixed.

[@ASPextra]

The challenge is, the range of motion issue is easily solved simply by moving your feet. Which you will, almost no matter what, when you need to shoot.

[@deanmiller3660]

But if he moves to the right, he moves into your range motion........

[@fotofavoloso267]

You could have named this the unforeseen consequences of success! Thank you for putting this out there!

[@JFirn86Q]

Very interesting. Seems like grip is most important, and the stance in the moment is what it is.

[@ASPextra]

Very true!

[@Raphaelhigginbotham]

Trigger and grip affect me more than stance.

[@bernardhayes4459]

Brillant information I hope this is widely watched.

[@Madmanmarque]

Small correction. Ray Chapman. Very good presentation, I'm left handed but right eye dominant and had to make corrections to get on target.

[@ASPextra]

I can't believe I did that. Sheesh!

[@Madmanmarque]

@@ASPextra Not a big deal!

[@papimaximus95]

So here is a thought to consider....a gun fight is not just about the actual shooting of a gun. Like John said, think about it like a martial art/athletic sport. And so, how do MMA fighters, boxers, sprinters, ect. stand when it is time to deliver. Your stance is also part of your shooting tool box and so you may need to change it based on the work you are about to do. Body armor, holster location, cover, mission (civilian vs LEO) all matter. At the indoor range, I shoot 100% isosceles - why? The range bay is square, the target is square to me so it makes sense to be square. If in a competition, I may be moving and/or shooting around cover which is much more Weaver-esque. If a bad guy is danger close and swinging a knife/bat/pole at me, which stand are you going to want to be in as you draw and fire? Learn them all and use them as needed.

[@MemphisBeech]

Great stuff here, folks. Keep it coming.

[@toddreynolds238]

Practicing shooting wearing his Halloween costume? I had to watch it a second time so I could get the content because I couldn’t stop focusing on the cat ears.😂

[@ASPextra]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hqrOn6GNeaqNkNE

[@GunnyArtG]

Very well reasoned.

[@MrFooqair]

I use the Weaver because of injury. My left arm doesn't straighten because of a bad elbow break 12 yrs ago. I've also got 3 yrs of martial arts, so the stance is comfortable for me.

[@KN-op3et]

I shoot modified iso, which is taking a half or 3/4 step back with my right foot -- this is basically the same stance that I box, kick box, fight empty hands.

[@ASPextra]

That's usually referred to today as modern technique.

[@ArloFSE]

I'm cross eye dominate and have tried to move the gun over but with my eyes and the lens I have in my glasses its works for me to just turn my head. Very cool video on the history of stances.

[@ocalavictory3728]

Good stuff, John. 🙂👍

[@desmondhumebrotha3522]

Weaver always felt more natural to me because of my martial arts background but more recently I’ve been warming up to the isosceles stance.

[@ASPextra]

An interesting thought I had, as I have a long background in martial arts as well. We tend to blade for reach, but if you throw a right cross or front ball kick with the rear foot, I.e. generate power, at the moment of power generation you will square hips and shoulders to the target.

[@Raphaelhigginbotham]

Same for me but after years of practice I switched to isos. Stance.

[@jonx3124]

Muay Thai ans boxing here Weaver does feel better for me

[@tpelle2]

I use a Weaver stance with a little bit of Chapman blended in, I guess. It just seems more natural, and it naturally positions the pistol in front of my dominant eye. I'm right handed and right eye dominant. It also keeps the bore axis of the pistol in line with the forearm bones of the strong arm, and absorbs the recoil impulse against the heel of the hand and not into the ball of the thumb joint. The gun doesn't tend to twist to the side, and the strong hand is already positioned for a solid strong hand only hold on the gun if you have to use the weak hand for another task (like jabbing your fingers into the assailant's eyes or nose). What I don't understand is this grip with the thumbs sticking up in the air like bunny ears! My theory is that, once that strong hand thumb sweeps that safety off (I habitually carry either a M1911 or an FN Hi Power, so the safety is a thing!) its job as to manipulation of the pistol is done, and it shifts from manipulation to retention. I use a grip where my strong hand thumb is curled down around the grip, and if shooting two-handed, the support hand thumb pressing on the other thumb. Gives me good solid grip. Takes advantage of the "opposable thumb" principle (Why ignore millions of years of evolution?), and makes it a lot harder for the assailant to grab my pistol and twist it out of my grip. Waving the thumbs up in the air is kinda' useless in my book! Do you hold a screwdriver that way? How about a hammer? How about loosening a tight jar lid? Think about it! Consider this: A pistol is a close-range weapon, so if your assailant is starting out close to you already, and he likely has a head-start on you before you even start your draw stroke, what you think is going to be a gunfight might turn into a wrestling match over possession of your gun! You want the best grip possible. Way too much of the "modern" technique of the pistol is rooted in competition techniques, NOT in fighting techniques. Of course competition experience may shave time off of your presentation and target transition times, but those paper targets you are shooting at aren't coming at you with a Louisville Slugger either.

[@jona5517]

I was taught Weaver almost 30 years ago without even knowing the name for it. It worked just fine, but I found myself naturally going into a modified Weaver/Chapman on my own over time, again not knowing that there was a name for it, I’m also crossed eye dominant..I also trained in a more Isosceles pro style shooting as well, did well, but was far more comfortable and better with the Weaver/Chapman style… but you should train with all of your weapons with different techniques just like you would with hand to hand engagements to make you more fluid or flexible to your situation the situation you are in.

[@enby_kensei]

I learned how to box before I learned how to shoot. Once I started looking into shooting stances, I realized that I was more or less doing a modified Chapman stance, with some elements of Center Axis Relock. Really helps with stable but mobile footwork and my cross-eye dominance.

[@jimmeyers8960]

Modern samurai says it's not about right / wrong but efficient / inefficient. This was an awesome video and I've already forwarded it. :) Thanks.

[@ASPextra]

Yep. And at some point something becomes so inefficient that we say it's just not useful and hence wrong. :)

[@jimwlouavl]

Love these back to basics videos. Thanks.

[@ASPextra]

Glad to hear it!

[@ephrammaker3153]

Whatever stance is best for you is whatever stance is best for you. If you are the quickest and most accurate standing on your head and shooting with your toes, then do that.

[@papimaximus95]

"Whatever stance is best for you is whatever stance is best for you. " Not really...we do know some significant limitations with many stances.

[@ephrammaker3153]

@@papimaximus95 No. Use the stance that works best for YOU. If it has limitations from another stance, then you wouldn’t use it.

[@irondice5183]

This was brilliant!

[@longislandpatriot6745]

Nicely done, informative.

[@GeneralThe3rd]

Wow, I had no idea about the history or community behind pistol shooting. I spent 16 years in the Army and 5 of those years in the Infantry and never really got proper training with the M9 because I was never using a weapon platform that also went along with an M9 (I was just a rifleman and a Squad Designated Marksman). Later I read the manual because I got put in charge of many M9 qualification ranges and messed around until I found something that worked for me. The only formal pistol training (outside of reading a manual) I had was later in my career switching to be a UH-60M pilot, I was in SERE school and had some SERE instructors who were SF teaching the evasion phase. I became much more efficient and eventually made some changes to what I was taught and it basically looks like the Chapman position you showed. I am right handed and left eye dominant and the reason I rest my check on my shoulder is because it almost acts like a cheek-to-stock weld from all of my M16/M4 Training and it allows me to consistently get a solid sight picture each time. I was never taught that, I just started doing it by experimenting and it just stuck with me and I used that during the remaining time I spent as a pilot and even to this day since I retired. Thanks for all you do John, I appreciate all of your contributions in cutting through a lot of the myths surrounding guns, shooting, and gun fighting. I also love that you do not deny Christ before men. Keep it up.

[@ASPextra]

Thanks for the encouragement! I think as a cross-dominant shooter, this is my best consideration for shooting it well. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJbCoWmlrtqmj7c

[@GeneralThe3rd]

@@ASPextra Thanks brother, I'll try to practice with that technique and see how it goes. I have used red dots and advanced optics my entire career except for basic training and while using pistols. I've only used my M4 in combat, never once have I had to use my M9. After we were taught how to find out our eye dominance in basic training, I was not willing to learn to do everything left handed. I have had friends in the Army who were left-handed and I know of their struggle being in a right-hand dominated world. I've only ever had issues shooting with iron-sights with my eye dominance. I'm too cheap to change my CC to a RMR platform, so this should help me out a lot. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

[@joekelly4]

Thx John this was dope

[@shooterqqqq]

I thought I had already commented on this but here goes. Jack Weaver used a classic rifle stance in his competitions. It's simply the rifle stance with the hands together. Later, Jeff Cooper started teaching the "Weaver Stance" at Gunsite and he bent the elbows and faced the target with both feet eliminating any blade stance. Cooper taught to face the target with maybe one foot a couple of inches to the rear. There is none of the bladed side exposes with Cooper's teachings. Cooper also had a grip that the thumb is over thumb which made push/pull necessary. We don't do that anymore. The firing grip clamps front and back and the support grip is forward and clamps side to side. The old photographs and videos prove all this.

[@Shadow39323]

John is the teacher we all wish we had

[@Jedi_Jed]

I’ve sure never thought about it when I’m hunting. You just do what you gotta do. I suppose we all have to pick something to start with at the range though.

[@ASPextra]

Yeah, and hunting and defensive shooting are related but not identical. :)

[@JacqueCRISCOsd]

Thank you. I’m right eye dominant and shooting left handed due to an injury. I think I need to move the gun over right eye.

[@pauladavies9809]

Thanks John! Great video on principles, definitely need those taught more in classes along with the history. 😊

[@ASPextra]

Thanks Paula!

[@nunyabinness3574]

The first few seconds, had me thinking john was on his 3rd cup of coffee 😂

[@jonpalmer2766]

Nicely put. You do you.

[@seanbui2724]

i just use my boxing stance, staggered stance, shoulder protraction, tight core, strong elbows

[@jameshudy7408]

Yes sir great history thank you, nice to tell people the why, behind the techniques. 🤟

[@ASPextra]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@jeffcaptain6738]

Nicely done, I learned a few things. Surprised you didn’t cover the C.A.R. System. I would like your thoughts on that. Also, I believe it was Ray Chapman, not Rex.

[@ASPextra]

Yeah definitely misspoke his name. I don’t think CAR does anything better than more established and accepted systems and has some real drawbacks.

[@jeffcaptain6738]

@@ASPextra would you elaborate for me please?

[@sohmdaddy]

RAAAAAAAY Chapman

[@jeffcaptain6738]

You are correct!

[@jameswebb2856]

Great history and advice.

[@FilmFlam-8008]

All I could concentrate on was one cat ear being down.

[@diosdadoapias]

I think when Mr. Weaver did his shooting stance, he did consider what is good and convenient on him, including his injury. He did not consider what is the effect of the bladed side of his stance if he is wearing a bullet vest.

[@nunyabinness3574]

I actually use the CHAPMAN, being cross eye dominant. Im right handed, do everything right handed...but i fight southpaw. I didnt realize i was CED (didnt even know it was a thing), until i bought my first AR (2013) and had to teach myself to close the other eye. Now.. if i raise a pistol, my right eye closes...if i raise a rifle, my left i closes

[@zplates]

Would love to learn more about foot positioning for stability - both for accuracy but more importantly keeping upright in case someone comes at you from the sides or behind. I'm thinking of applying martial arts stability principles with one foot slightly forward, one slightly back, toes pointed outward. Should my trigger or dominant eye foot be forward? Does it matter? In my case trigger and dominant eye is right side (although I am actually left handed for writing).

[@diosdadoapias]

I do the Weaver stance but my body position could be isosceles and also my foot. I do the Isosceles but my feet could be in weaver stance. Me think, the arms is more important than the foot and body position. If am seated, in prone position, the feet position is irrelevant but only the arms.

[@nomad155]

Thank you for calling out the right handed folks for being weird! They're so stubborn and stick to one side!

[@theChestnutMtnTinman]

Interesting history 😎😎

[@MA-hc6mb]

Principles not stances is key. The same way you can get 2 military units using the same doctrine but different tactics and both being successful.

[@nokiot9]

A correct stance is part of principles, even if it’s just unique to you. It’s your principle.

[@MA-hc6mb]

@@nokiot9 Demonstrably wrong. You will not always manage, even in a perfect range world, the 'correct' stance. You can still manage the correct principles, based on your circumstances. The stance can change, whilst maintaining your principles. That's literally what the video explains. One handed shooting is none of the above; But you'll apply the principles as best you can.

[@YoBooBoo]

Good video

[@ASPextra]

Thanks

[@markmurphy854]

I read that Weaver had a broken elbow that would not allow him full extension. I read this in the Blue Press (a Dillon Precision publication). I have tried to go back and find the article specifically but have been unsuccessful in locating it. It is likely in the last five years.

[@ASPextra]

Something like that. An elbow or shoulder injury for sure.

[@shooterqqqq]

@@ASPextra Ray Chapman and it was Jeff Cooper who fell on ice in Washington D.C. after the war who hurt his shoulder. The so-called Weaver Stance has been around for decades before Jack Weaver decided to use it in competition. The earliest photo I have is John Henry Fitzgerald using it since he was a rifleman and it's just a rifle stance with the hands together. The isosceles was used in competitions before body armor has been popular. Brian Enos was using the Isosceles in 1984 and his shooting partner at the time was Rob Leatham. Mr. Enos is also credited with the thumbs forward grip.

[@oklahomahank2378]

I took a course at the Chapman academy in Missouri back in about ? 1995? They were open minded about stance. P.s. are you saying Rex Chapman? His name was Ray like the baseball player killed by a pitch in 1920. Ray (the trainer) died in 2008. Edit. Sorry, did not mean to pile on. I just now noticed others pointing that out.

[@trleith]

That's about the time I was there. Ray sorta came out and said hi, and now Mr. Skaggs will take over. (John Skaggs suffered a stroke in the early 2000s, and COVID killed him in 2021). That's exactly right: they were not the least bit dogmatic about a stance, just wanted you to have a stable, athletic base, a two handed "tensioned" grip that works for your hands and your equipment to control muzzle flip and give the action something to work against (i.e. avoid limp wrist stovepipes). They wanted us to squeeze the magazine out of the grip when firing. By the time we got to firing around, under and over barriers and so forth, you never had a rehearsed "stance" anyway. Get your feet (or knees or whatever) under you, brace a bit, and it helps to be able to pivot. Mr. Skaggs was big on "shifting gears" for different ranges and scenarios. The only thing I remember being specifically "Ray Chapman" was a roll-over prone technique I think he basically stole from Marine rifle training and adapted to pistol. Easy to get three out of five on a man-sized target from 90 yards. But it's not a real common sort of defensive scenario, they just wanted you to see it can be done.

[@nokiot9]

If they ever invent time travel I’m taking Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton to the gun range.

[@tillman40]

The Mantis doesn’t lie

[@ASPextra]

It gives objective data for sure. That said, principles are universal but application is very personal!

[@salamangkali-allmartialart4836]

Weaver is best for shooting around corners.

[@ASPextra]

Which isn’t what we see happen in real gunfights at all.

[@williampagdon4822]

Love the Kitty Ears

[@ianturner8459]

Never knew Jack Black was a gun enthusiast.😮

[@jreese46]

None of the above. Comfort, balance, natural point of aim, whatever that looks like for you, for me, or for someone else.

[@GunsForEveryoneIsaac]

Bending elbows isn't a natural response in the defensive context. Bending elbows is working against the body's natural reaction.

[@williammcmillan7502]

"Rex" Chapman? You must be a hoops fan!

[@philreynolds7216]

I have to wonder if some of the reason for the different styles of handgun stance had less to do with the best ways to *shoot* a gun, and more to do with the best way to *teach* how to shoot a gun. I can’t say that any of those techniques is the best way to shoot a gun, but I do know that an instructor must have a standard to follow, and if you’re teaching a student who’s having problems *in any subject*, it’s frequently better to have the student start completely over with a specific technique with which you’re familiar, and go through it step-by-step to build the proper technique. Will this process create a master of the skill? Probably not, but it should at least produce a student who can demonstrate a degree of proficiency. For example, if you’re teaching firearms at a police academy, you’re not necessarily trying to produce pistol masters, you’re trying to produce students who can pass the test, and if you have students who have never touched a pistol before, you need a standard technique you can teach to anyone and achieve results.

[@ASPextra]

Weaver and Chapman developed their stances for their own use.

[@philreynolds7216]

@@ASPextra Do I look as stupid as I feel?

[@alexanderlaw4297]

I use ISO because of body armor

[@raifcluster]

I don't wear body armor, and I'm cross eye dominant. Context does matter. Shooting behind cover is a context. Shooting from a vehicle is context. Shooting at less than 3 feet is context. Defense is not like the Lord of the Rings. There is no one stance that rules them all. Train in other (read "addtional") ways besides standing in front of a paper target at 7 yards. Stance means NOTHING when you are moving and shooting. Try to do both at the same time. I dare ya.

[@ASPextra]

Do you watch the main channel?

[@FartInYourFace234]

in what universe is lotr relevant to gunfights 😂

[@jameskirk3]

The best laid plans go to shit when you get punched in the face unfortunately. Put in the blue gun work with an impeded draw, it might save your life. Use a partner and have them try to get you and your gun.

[@williampagdon4822]

There are so many variables that the shorter Videos should probably be avoided. Target vs. Combat Shooting, Male vs. Female Shooter, Revolver vs. Automatic, Caliber of the Weapon, Body Armor vs. No Body Armor, Concealed Position vs. Un-Concealed Position, Offensive Combat, Defensive Combat and many other variables are possible. If my 5'-0" wife uses the Isosceles Stance, she will struggle to keep a 9mm Handgun below vertical after the first round is fired. She adapts her stance to overcome physical limitations. After firing about 5 Rounds she is fatigued and needs to brace against something for stability. Most of these Videos seem to be Expert Males arguing their preferences.

[@ASPextra]

It's unlikely that many will watch a video that encompasses all of those topics. That kind of info is what a full length class is for. We do have 15 classes like that on the ASP Unlimited app from Evidence based pistol and shotgun, to sniper pistol and active shooter classes. Consider checking those out.

[@williampagdon4822]

@@ASPextra I appreciate the reply, but it is not for me, it is for those who search for Videos and find the one-stance-fits-all Videos. I believe they often do a Dis-Service to the Viewers.

[@markbroad119]

Is weirdos are 85% of the world bud Shoot the way you shoot best. It's like welding, you'll get a guy who can do it best one handed but most use two. If your best one way don't try to do it different

[@SlankeyDawg]

the cat ears

[@ASPextra]

I love them.

[@rockytopwrangler2069]

... Training muscle memory ,, Weaver stance is also strong supported hold for rifle shooting ... Blading body to give less direct vital organ(s) of center mass hit ... in a personal self defense scenario ,,you are not going to be wearing body armor ... Iso .. projects larger center mass and if CQC ,, highly unstable ... would be a disapproved fighting stance by Master Ken ..

[@ASPextra]

Jack Weaver said explicitly that he did NOT develop his stance to blade the body.

[@ASPextra]

I think they're irrelevant, especially the blading part.

[@ASPextra]

Hi, welcome to my channel where I mod comments my way.

[@billcampbell9611]

I believe there is no”right”stance or “right” grip for everyone; there’s no “one size fits all” stance or grip. Now there’s certain safety rules (like don’t put a finger by the cylinder gap in a revolver) but ultimately it’s what works best for that particular person. Myself, I shoot better using the wedge grip as shown by Mas Ayoob. However, I’m not really looking to be a skilled target shooter but rather I want to be capable of defending myself if need be. When I go shooting, I stand whatever way I happen to be at the moment…I don’t believe I will have the opportunity to say ”excuse me, Mr. Home Invader, please allow me to take a perfect stance and grip and carefully control my breath while I align my sights on you” so instead I try to work on getting shots on target at a distance less than 10 yards no matter which hand I use, no matter which way my body is contorted. I figure it’s highly unlikely I will ever need to defend myself by shooting at farther distances so I don’t focus on that.

[@mhl2674]

Fun fact. Rex Chapman had a 40+ vertical leap.

[@ASPextra]

Did he really? DANG!

[@mhl2674]

@@ASPextra Rex Chapman the basketball player did. Ray Chapman the shooter did not. 🙂

[@ASPextra]

Well, shit. :)

[@MaximPL1100]

bullshit