Web 3.0 & Privacy - Computerphile

With nefarious big tech companies wanting all your data, could Web 3.0 be the answer? Discussing with Professor Derek McAuley.
/ computerphile
/ computer_phile
This video was filmed and edited by Sean Riley.
Computer Science at the University of Nottingham: bit.ly/nottscomputer
Computerphile is a sister project to Brady Haran's Numberphile. More at www.bradyharan.com

[@Coconut-219]

*Calculator would like to:* - Know your location - Record phone calls - Read device data - Access the internet

[@trentonpaul6376]

- Send text messages - Know your social

[@senselessnothing]

-mine crypto because the service is free

[@tarekali7064]

IoT in a nutshell

[@siddiki9778]

That's how you know the app is suspicious

[@unavailavle123]

Refrigerator would like to know your location

[@pkeshish]

Hello. I am here as a representative of your Health Care Provider. We are quite concerned as we have received statistical data showing you consume four cups of tea daily. Please study the attached PDF document on the hazards of high caffeine intake. I also would like to discuss adjustments we have made to your Health Coverage and Premiums based on our updated understanding of your dietary changes. Thank you, and have a wonderful day.

[@Pr3da70rl0rd]

Absolutely agree with what was said, yet there are 2 main obstacles that need be tackled: 1 - No financial incentive for a business to do that. 2 - No social pressure, due to lack of technical literacy (a person needs to understand the implications of not applying social pressure).

[@mironsk8]

Guillotine tech billionaires as a warning. All the incentive you need!

[@danzbjj]

#2 is the biggest one, people don't care or even seem to understand that 'free' facebook is really a trade in your personal data

[@kaimarmalade9660]

#2 is the reason Alan Kay has been pushing for new educational models for the last 20 years or something. We can't have democracies without a literate public. (technically or otherwise)

[@4.0.4]

This is a really great idea, and branding private, local "clouds" that do not send your personal info anywhere but at the same time bring greater functionality as "Web 3.0" is a great way to make it clear that this is the way forward.

[@jameswalker199]

I like how he's calling it a Databox, too, because its simple language that explains what it does. I'd maybe call it a Data Vault to appeal to security people, which isn't bad, but it may be a turn-off to people that will just ask themselves "do I really need a vault? I've nothing of value"

[@4.0.4]

@@jameswalker199 "do I really need data privacy if I have nothing to hide?"

[@shiolei]

The tea and kettle example was really great in helping me grasp the importance of around deciding which signals/data to share and how some of them could unintentionally be misused.

[@ab_synth]

Ive been advocating this localized application for years at this point. I want to share data. average data but i dont want everyone to know everything all the time. This is the future we need to move towards!

[@Hal15900]

I reject internet of things. Just give me home network of things.

[@Loundre3]

Make use of the Raspberry Pi for that. Assign a static ip, make it work as an TCP socket server and make the program logic (in Python3, probably) handle what it needs to do (smart electric outlets, lights, television, ect). A commercial solution is not going to happen very soon, since its not profitable (not enough demand).

[@Hal15900]

I just dont have the electrical engineering knowledge to build a light switch or thermostat I'd trust not to catch fire. I dont think I should have to trade my privacy to get access to that knowledge.

[@Loundre3]

"I dont think I should have to trade my privacy to get access to that knowledge." I agree with you there, but much cannot be done.

[@veggiet2009]

I think that's what he's talking about

[@syber-space]

Check out Hassio (Home Assistant) and systems like ESPHome. It all runs locally and is fully Open-Source.

[@Sporkabyte]

Companies could develop platforms that don’t collect and sell your data, but they *won’t*. They won’t do it because it’s more profitable to sacrifice user privacy because their data is worth money to advertisers and others.

[@EddiePenta]

I thought this was gonna be a video about the decentralized web3 internet that people are using today. Great video though 👍

[@schilll]

Same same, its what i think of when i hear web3

[@Ronenlahat]

Still privacy-centered, the user is in control of data

[@Seegalgalguntijak]

Eddie Penta Is there a decentralized web3 internet that people are using today? Okay, I run my linux box at home with nextcloud on it, and a TOR relay, and an instance of Prosody for peer-to-peer communication via XMPP, but there are only very few users that actually do that, because, as Derek said, you need to be tech-savvy with linux in order to do that. I also use only smartphones that are completely void of Google or Apple software (as long as it isn't open source, non-proprietary), but again, that is something many people are not capable of, and others aren't even willing to put up with not having live traffic in Google maps, but using an OpenStreetMap navigation instead, and so on. So where is this decentralized web3 internet for the masses today? I only see people using WhatsApp and Skype and other centralized services, making those companies rich and be in control with the data they provide through their usage of the services.

[@mrlithium69]

More like this please! He brought up a lot of good overviews, maybe something more in depth?

[@Guztav1337]

There will probably be an extra bits video. So come back in a few days and check description.

[@beerforlife32]

If you can't protect your data, you still can spoof your data. If you can't prevent the collecting of data you still can flood the servers.

[@FreeER]

Probably not legally.

[@threeMetreJim]

Or just add plenty of 'garbage' data, so it's way more difficult to infer anything from the data. Make out your lights are switching on and off randomly, when really they aren't (if it's possible without actually switching your lights, that is). Similar to what you'd do for a phishing server - send it a lot of plausible looking, but fake information, to protect the unfortunate victims.

[@FreeER]

@Computationally Invariant It's not stealing if you agree to it. What should be illegal is having documents, particularly ones you agree to simply by using a device, written above the nation's average reading level. @threeMetreJim also probably illegal, or at least against the terms of use etc. Maybe not noticeable if you keep it to a reasonable level however.

[@beerforlife32]

@@FreeER Sometimes in life you have to decide between the right thing and the legal thing.

[@FreeER]

@@beerforlife32 not here however because the answer to both is to not use the device if you're incapable of understanding or unwilling to agree to the terms.

[@misterguru5135]

Did anyone else notice that the window opened after he flushed the toilet!! 🤣

[@xybersurfer]

very interesting how privacy pushes for more independence by running your own services and in a usable way, which i've always found an ideal to strive for

[@rickstevens1167]

But co-dependant citizens are much easier to control.

[@unpaintedcanvas]

I really like the intranet of things model where you have your own server at home and will only communicate with local devices. I love how the raspberry pi foundation is making this more accessible through more recent pis and the pi zero. My main qualm - and this is nobody's fault - is that this requires time and learning to do to make something like this. This is either too intimidating or time consuming for the average person to do. Luckily, I'm interested enough in IT and computers in general to where I could theoretically do this, but someone else might not be in that position. On top of that, there's a dearth of software that makes it convenient enough to have an intranet of things or things closely related to that (like having a home server). While tangentially related to IoT, Nextcloud is a _huge_ step in the right direction for making things convenient for home servers or home clouds. Probably the most major thing bogging it down is, again, people having the time, courage, or enough skill of setting an instance up.

[@fasznyak]

you can die a hero, or live to become a villain.

[@hansmuller1846]

LOL that is exactly what I have been thinking about for months now, without reading or hearing anything about it! The idea of a home box that offers an easy interface and resource for most things that run on company servers today just makes such a lot of sense. I just haven't started trying to develop one myself yet -.-

[@drgr33nUK]

This is why I have a isolated VLAN for my I.O.T devices that's limited to 5% of my total broadband throughput

[@Primius80]

If your goal is to gain privacy this won't work. 5% of an 16Mbit/s connection might still be enough for a low-res video stream. but even slower settings like 1% could still pass through an high quality audio stream. If the device leaks information in form of text (0.001%) there is no way to block that without also blocking the normal functionality.

[@drgr33nUK]

My goal is to segregate the network and control bandwidth usage. At least the IOT devices cannot see the rest of my network. Also I can audit the traffic passing in and out of the network easily.

[@anotherriddle]

great Video! right along my line of thinking (regarding privacy) However, from the point of view of data mining companies it still restricts what they can do and collect. So, they are not incentiviced to change the status quo in this manner and therefore I don't really see it happening. ...

[@evdata2459]

Just found this channel, the amount of intellectual people commenting here is great. Just subscribed :)

[@Biped]

Video length = missed opportunity

[@jackofallmasterofnone8024]

LEET

[@rikwisselink-bijker]

The Vlogbrothers discovered that KZbin sometimes adds a second to the video length, so maybe he tried. (it's relevant with them because of their 4:00 max rule)

[@hattrickster33]

r/therewasanattempt

[@Sqwaush]

@@hattrickster33 r/sounding

[@chuckinshanks]

@@Sqwaush xD

[@ibycus314]

I’m really nervous about the so called ‘cloud’ computing movement. I don’t like the fact that essentially we are putting all our most valuable information and activities in areas outside of our control. I’m not so worried about the data aggregation/data misuse (I’m not that interesting), but rather the possibility of loosing access (or being charged ridiculous amounts for access)

[@rickstevens1167]

That's basically how Game Console monthly fees are monetized. They lock games that You paid for behind that Wall. This is ON TOP OF an internet subscription, which makes Absolutely no sense.

[@schifoso]

Gonna be hard to do when a huge majority of users expect services to be free. Pay-per-app is done; subscription models are becoming more prevalent as people just downloaded cracked versions of pay-per-app.

[@Sqwaush]

im guilty as charged

[@taylorsmurphy]

I'm already updated to Web 3.1, which patched these issues

[@veggiet2009]

I like moving around my house in the dark, lol

[@unperrier5998]

Computerphile, when will you enable captions? Even auto captions are great (when they're in English, that is)

[@Computerphile]

OK, I really apologise for this but the auto captions *are* enabled. The problem is that so is "community subtitling", and for some reason KZbin won't let you see the auto-generated captions while community subtitles are enabled. (I've had to type this so many times!) - I am sorry, but the good thing is that there's a workaround (just like any software problem...) - If you go to community subtitling (they may have renamed it 'transcriptions' or something but usually there's an option from the watch page) you can watch there with the auto-generated captions. Once again, apologies for the inconvenience, but I think community subtitling is worth it, I just wish YT would fix this. >Sean

[@Abrifq]

@@Computerphile I suggest to turning off community subtitles for now due to some people using subtitles to attack/promote channels. The biggest channels had to turn of that due those attacks.

[@recklessroges]

No mention of retroshare?

[@billoddy5637]

The idea of a home run mail server is pretty sweet... until you need to move houses

[@deepdata1]

Not if the server becomes a part of the infrastructure in the house (like the light switches, fuse box, etc.) and there is an easy migration utility that lets you simply migrate all data and services through an encrypted connection over the internet.

[@tomiesz]

the server is just software. I imagine one of the first things would be portability (if such software were to ever exist in the shape described).

[@code-dredd]

@@deepdata1 You can forensically analyze the server's drives and recover deleted data if the filesystems themselves weren't encrypted. Encrypting connections won't save you here.

[@DJDiskmachine]

So the power structure is about to shift from big organisations that (cheat, regularly and frequently but still) have to cope with complex law structures to anonymous crypto bros that operate outside any regulatory framework. What will happen when social pressure will shift from people oblivious to technology using social networks daily to having every AFK aspect of their lives monitored by IOT devices? Does it really matter that it will be possible to opt out of data collection when it is in the financial interest of manufacturers to opt out as default as opposed to opt in by default?

[@ganeshkumar269]

Yo could you add captions to your videos.

[@dankwarmouse6248]

They're community added, I worked on the first two minutes but it'll take some time

[@BloodyIron]

Considering how much we need more programmers and people in tech, what's the big deal with learning Linux and running your own stuff? Like is that just an unacceptable thing to do? It would benefit yourself and greater society massively. And you get all that control you seek.

[@BloodyIron]

@@epsi I've been running it at home for years and no DoS threat... DoS to residential is very very very uncommon. That's fear mongering right there. And even still, people learn how to do their own house renovations. Why not learn technology in the home too?

[@BloodyIron]

@@epsi email isn't hard. But if you don't want to run it yourself, so be it.

[@ayushsinha1813]

so all these smart assistants are being developed by the big tech so that they can get into IOT and get user data before we take back control of our data ?

[@Aemilindore]

@computerphile. this is the second time you promoted WhatsApp. Why so? Can you elaborate us how you think WHatsApp is end to end? Hope you clarify this.

[@Aemilindore]

@@epsi Its what they want to claim. But without showing the souce, how could anyone know? That is not the major problem here. Why do channels like these flag/promote insecure apps like WhatsApp as "secure" apps? There isn't a way @Computerphile could know whether whatsApp is secure. Yet, they propose to viewers it is. That's ignorant. Or, could have other ulterior motives.

[@Tarsonis42]

Web 3.0? Didn't we already arrive at Web 4.0 about a decade ago?!

[@Mohammed8778]

thats industry 4.0 no? Dunno what 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 were though

[@BraBo]

​@@Mohammed8778 Still trying to figure out, how come the title of the video is Web 3.0, and then the video is about IOT, and BIG DATA.... Why does IOT even needs the WEB to work?! Anyways...

[@CyclingSteve]

Most smart bulbs can be switched on independently by power-cycling them. The problem with a home based system is most people cannot build it themselves so they would need to rely on a corporate interest to make it simple and around we go again. It's easy to say "oh, make a home based system that is easy to set up" but the hardware needs to be manufactured, around we go again. Most people have dynamic IP addressing at home so an external reference will always be needed, this needs to be paid for, ...

[@senselessnothing]

The fact that you think influential companies have to go through the regulations and not deal under the desk boggles my mind.

[@benjaminr8229]

Tasos Obscure table**

[@senselessnothing]

sumerian barley money disagrees

[@fyddin5632]

@@1famekouby ah yes, i remember the time i was sent to the happy camp to help re-educate me with knowledge of the free market. Fun times

[@MrBoubource]

Why dont we just call it web 2019.august or something like that, it would make more sense than those advertising-ish numbers... Anyway let's watch the video !

[@VorpalGun]

This data box is still potentially hackable though, and may have security holes for the apps running on it to exploit (see phones for examples).

[@funposting8912]

Replace the processors in smart speakers (from a microprocessor with wifi) with a more modern SoC. The Apple HomePod already has the same processor as the iPhone 6, handing it extra duties wouldn’t be that much of a burden at all. Apple already tries to do as much as they can clientside anyway, it’s a major selling point. Saying “the only smart speaker that keeps everything in your home, not sending it out to external servers” would be a great selling point. Have devices all talk to it locally rather than your light switch using a server on the other side of the world to tell your light bulb to adjust its brightness down, just have the device speak locally, and you can tie everything up nicely. Maybe send an encrypted backup to a remote server, as for apps being hackable, this would quite literally be on par with an iPhone for security, if not moreso if the apps are more heavily scrutinised and curated, and additionally denied internet access

[@Furiends]

I find it funny that a privacy honoring web is just assumed to be "run your own linux server" but there is in fact a reason for this. Also notice how the real crux here is that the big social media sites don't want you to have privacy so you don't. You can accept that or you can fight it. As usual with these issues we certainly have the software and technology to do it but no will or appreciation for it.

[@NuggetsNews]

Would love it if you guys can discuss web 3.0 & ethereum or similar platforms more!

[@NuggetsNews]

@@1famekouby you'll care more when negative interest rates hit your savings account my friend.

[@CardinalHijack]

I don't think you can just bat off the financial side of it though. Almost every site you use - even the one im using to watch this - is able to offer its service for free because of the ability to monitise the data its receiving and processing. If you remove that, you have to accept another form of monitisation, and I for one am not paying $5-15 a month for each site I want to use. How do you keep the internet free to browse if you change the model of monetization the 5-10 sites 90% of the internet uses?

[@dombo8639]

Any correlation to Pied Piper ?

[@frognik79]

"Can be a raspberry pi doing it" ooh jab jab.

[@ianmoore5502]

read this as he said it lol

[@ZERG81]

Anyone else reckon this is Jim Browning?? I'm convinced this is the bloke

[@ImpiantoFacile]

This is why I don't use "smart" devices, only Sonoff(flashed with Tasmota) switches and Home Assistant, all of that without internet access, on a separate VLAN. If I need to control them remotely, I have a VPN on my phone.

[@jameswalker199]

I can agree with this guy a lot. Sure, I don't want the NSA building an inference about my daily routine, but let's assume they are genuinely benevolent: what happens when that data is breached? That's right, Burglar Bill now knows when I'm likely to be out of the house because *my **_kettle_** told him* when I come home and brew up.

[@Seegalgalguntijak]

WhatsApp is a great example: If you don't trust Facebook, you can't use it. And they break European law anyways, by knowing who has which phone number stored in their phone's address book, even if these people don't have WhatsApp and therfore certainly don't want their number to be known by Facebook.

[@Guztav1337]

They don't break any European law. Innocent till proven otherwise, my dude. Anyway, WhatsApp is owned by facebook. I can't believe people don't understand what services facebook has... I see a lot of "quit facebook, go to instagram". and these people don't know instagram is owned by facebook... they switch from facebook to facebook...

[@lopus312]

the camera shaking is killing me

[@no_more_free_nicks]

I used to make a lot of calls with Skype, before the small and soft turned it into a steaming pile of dung, now I hate it.

[@An.Individual]

1:45 is that $35 a year?

[@senselessnothing]

These numbers are very dubiously derived. Facebook's claimed numbers are very dubious too.

[@b2bb]

I whole heartedly agree with everything he states.

[@biehdc]

wait, its getting worse??

[@JR-pk1fr]

BieHDC I like your icon/user pic 👍

[@williamromero-auila7129]

Worse cause for people to invest

[@twoboxtoofurious]

I can understand most english speakers but I find it hard to understand this guy. I think computerphile should improve the audio quality in future episodes, if possible, please!

[@iKerby]

What if I prefer not having to pay for my own server and storage? I am not a schizo and I don’t care if google uses my data to figure out if there are traffic issues. I’m also not upset because others profit from me using their services.

[@RagaarAshnod]

The economic argument is spurious... I don't know, sounds like the foundational design of dividends. And there are a few people who would argue dividends are spurious!

[@RagaarAshnod]

Not a perfect comparison, but I still feel the argument underestimates the value of secondary income for a passive activity

[@mvmlego1212]

Could you explain your thoughts a little more?

[@rshnewton]

I would be delighted to pay $35 to stop all advertising forever. But I'm not sure that Google/FB would take it.

[@igorthelight]

For Desktop Browsers there is Adblock Plus.

[@aromaticsnail]

If anything, a web 3.0 will have less privacy and governments and corporations will have even more control over it. They'll make sure of that

[@Cr42yguy]

Sorry, I couldn't stand the constant humming in the background.

[@Abrifq]

But the people cant stand the heat in the background either.

[@CyclingSteve]

Get worse speakers, you won't hear it. It's your own fault.

[@IceMetalPunk]

So basically, the idea behind Web 3.0 is companies providing software that does data computation / machine learning on the individual level and then has an opt-in for what kind of data to send back to the company from that output? That's quite a lofty opinion of humans you have there. I'd wager that the majority of people, if given that infrastructure, would just opt-out of all data going to anyone except themselves. Yes, even "how many times I boil the kettle". People who don't understand data analytics have been taught that it's this mysterious, dangerous, stalker-enabling thing that's all bad; they feel that no one should have any information that they haven't generated, even if an app on their phone that they downloaded generates it. You give people that option and machine learning training dataset generation will grind to a crawl. Big Data will become Some Occasional Data.

[@kuhluhOG]

yeah, but this doesn't necessarily need to be a bad thing

[@IceMetalPunk]

@@kuhluhOG What's not a bad thing? I don't think volunteering your data to companies is a bad thing, I'm just saying most people would believe it is and be fearful of opting for it. (Or are you saying it's not a bad thing if dataset generation slows to a crawl? If so, I firmly disagree, as more data leads to faster progress in nearly all areas of computing.)

[@MickeyD2012]

The "internet of things" will kill you.

[@mohamedhabas7391]

the future is Now :)

[@neddyladdy]

Why does any want this IoT stuff anyway ?

[@Freddan0]

Ethereum!

[@lithium820]

can we stop giving the web a version number. this is not the 1990s anymore

[@AJewFR0]

Lithium booo. I like my naming schemes

[@SirNegadsington]

just use FreeNet

[@BTheBlindRef]

What do you get from Facebook for your $35 of information? The ability to use Facebook for free obviously. You want to limit use of your information? Better get ready to start paying actual money for all these nice free services. Early in the history of the internet this was tried. It failed. People liked free way better than they liked their privacy, regardless of what they claimed.

[@tokeeptrackofrandomsubs5899]

@@JamesSwift Sadly I'm a bit afraid many companies would default to wanting both the data and subscriptions for the services you use rather than not harvest that juicy data.

[@berbudy]

10:35 This is the true web3, not like today's web3 that is tied with blockchain

[@hoastbeef1202]

Imagine if you grew veggies in your back yard. Then Whole Foods comes along and is like: "Thanks, we'll just take those veggies that *you* grew and we will sell if for *our* profit." How many would just give your veggies to Whole Foods? But people have no issue with giving data for free to Google or Facebook. As long as they get to post gym selfies and food pics right?

[@rz2374]

I'm the ninth!

[@UltrMarine]

a video of irrelevance.

[@Aemilindore]

Guys, we need to get one thing clear. No One Clearly Knows if WhatsApp is end-to-end. NO ONE KNOWS.

[@code-dredd]

Then on what basis do you claim to know that no one knows? 🤔

[@Aemilindore]

@@code-dredd Simple. Its not opensource. If its not, its not end-to-end.

[@code-dredd]

@@Aemilindore *> Simple. Its not opensource. If its not, its not end-to-end.* Not being open source and not being end-to-end encrypted are different things. While you could *_assume_* a lack of E2E to err on the side of caution when you cannot see the code (which is reasonable), you really can't claim to *_know_* that it isn't E2E. In fact, there *_are_* ways to look into it even if you don't have access to the code itself including, but not limited to, inspecting packets going over the network and forensic analysis of the devices being used.

[@darthnihiluz5305]

Just stay out of Europe. GDPR is too crazy.