Were MEDIEVAL SWORDS SPRINGY? Myth Busting! With evidence from

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The myth that medieval sword blades were not springy seems to perpetuate some corners of the internet. Here we look at some of the clear and obvious evidence to show that many (if not all) were in fact springy... and some remain so!
@tested video: • Adam Savage Meets Real...
@scholagladiatoria flexing antique rapiers: • How FLEXIBLE are Real ...
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#sword #medieval #archaeology

[@scholagladiatoria]

Visit sterlingpacific.com/SCHOLA and use code 'SALLET' for $300 off!

[@M4TCH3SM4L0N3]

Thanks Matt, I hope this sponsor helps your channel! That said, unless the retail price is $325, it's still going to be too much for me right now. 😅

[@FlatEarthAdministrator]

Honestly I don’t think so at least I wouldn’t want spring steel in the context of armored combat. Yes a rigid blade may warp if you try to cut firewood with it but in battle and against targets that will give it’s not really an issue. I would certainly carry a heavier and more rigid battle sword for anti armor and for hewing / severing limbs in a single blow. Katana family of swords certainly follow this train of logic

[@M4TCH3SM4L0N3]

@@FlatEarthAdministrator I'm not sure if you caught it, but Matt specifically pointed out that you can have both: a sword can be made of spring steel and still be rigid and difficult to flex. Many swords were built with a central rib or simply with a more robust profile, and these were excellent for thrusting into gaps and into mail.

[@clonegreivou]

“Sir what made you think you could just come into this museum and start flexing all of our medieval swords??” “Matt Easton told me to”

[@dlatrexswords]

Every time I see that clip in the MET my breath catches. There have been examples of private collectors doing similar stress tests on Han era Jian that seem to occasionally show spring temper in China and while the data is useful I cannot say I'm very relaxed at watching antiques being handled like this. =) Great summary!

[@itsapittie]

They made *a lot* of swords in the Middle Ages. Unsurprisingly, some of them were spectacular, some totally sucked, and most were somewhere in the middle. Therefore, whatever you believe about Medieval swords, you can find some examples to support it. I think it's fair to say that our ancestors were just as smart as we are and their goal was to make a "springy" blade. Given their training and experience, they succeeded more often than they failed.

[@kaoskronostyche9939]

Wait? What? Intelligent 'context' and perspective in the comments? Are you really Matt taking the piss? Cheers!

[@itsapittie]

@@kaoskronostyche9939 🤣

[@silverjohn6037]

The perception may have come from cheap Victorian copies that were sold to decorate nouveau riche mansions. Sort of like the books that were sold by the yard to fill library shelves. So long as they had a uniform binding they didn't care what the contents actually were.

[@kaoskronostyche9939]

@@silverjohn6037 That would certainly add to the confusion.

[@MaliciousMollusc]

It's like people today making excellent guns and sucky guns.

[@LDSG_A_Team]

It'd be easier to try and list the medieval swords that WEREN'T flexible, since they are the exception, not the rule.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Maybe that's a worthwhile topic for a future video. From my own restorations, I can say that LOTS of Asian swords are not really springy (though it varies by area - Chinese swords are more often springy, and some Indian swords are). And most European and African swords I have worked on are springy. But certainly there are plenty of examples where they were clearly intended to be springy, but due to errors in manufacturing were not - lower quality Victorian swords with blades that came out too soft and not springy are well documented, and I have had a fair few through my hands. The big issue with medieval swords is that they are relatively few in number, and for obvious reasons people are less inclined to go and start flexing them for fun or restoration 😏. So we have a great imbalance in the data set.

[@LDSG_A_Team]

@@scholagladiatoria that makes sense. I suppose you could always look at every antique through an electron microscope to get an idea of how springy they are; that would certainly fill some of the gap in data. But it makes sense why no one would ever do that, lol. It'd be such a slow and expensive process, and it'd basically just serve to confirm what we knew already.

[@toncek9981]

Would it though? Yeah, probably yes, as most surviving pieces are going to be from later parts of middle ages with corresponding level of metalurgy... but I think that if we had more swords from earlier medieval periods it would be quite different. Also there's probably going to be a survival bias - springy swords were obviously well heat treated so their survival rate in actual fighting would be far better than that of too brittle or too soft swords. Also people tend to keep more expensive nicer stuff and there's going to be more well tempered mono-steel swords among these than among cheap not so well made ones. For example I know at least about one sword from Czechia (14th or early 15th c.) that was made from iron/low carbon steel and was only case hardened. When it comes to dussacks (which pretty much replaced arming swords in Czech lands during 15th c.) the go to method of construction apparently was iron spine with forge welded steel edge...

[@whyjay9959]

​@@scholagladiatoria Especially not flexing the ones covered in fragile rust...

[@ihcterra4625]

In some cases, they may have been annealed so they could be bent up and buried to keep the owner’s ghost from coming after them.

[@exander3636]

I think that a complicating Factor on this subject is that while most medieval swords were absolutely flexible, many of them were very stiff. I have a type XVa longsword made by Peter Johnsson, and while it can absolutely flex, it takes a lot of force to do so.

[@VeritasEtAequitas]

6:20

[@scholagladiatoria]

I agree completely 😎

[@zebarzebra]

Also it isn't really a yes or no thing. Everything is springy to certain degree - So when do we call something springy? Even the glass in my Windows is a little springy. Ice is a little springy. So when do we think a sword is springy - what exactly is the amount we are looking for.

[@skilletborne]

​@@zebarzebra Everything has an elastic deformation limit, but it takes a remarkable limit before it can be described as 'springy' In the case of swords, it's absolutely a remarkable amount of elastic potential. Expecting them to survive a 90 degree bend wouldn't be unreasonable. Not much can rival tempered steel for springiness, hence why we use it to make springs Bringing up the springiness of ice and windows feels pedantic and disingenuous. The are so far below the average elasticity of materials that we would describe them as being incredibly rigid or brittle, never 'a little springy'

[@IPostSwords]

That is because the "stiffness" is a property of geometry, while spring/set is a function of heat treatment.

[@siamsasean]

Another place you see ancient springs is shears. Two blades connected by a semi-circular spring, all as one piece. The blades, of course, have to be hardened while the spring remains springy. It's a smithing tour de force, and I've seen it done. Quite the trick; hammered the whole thing out of bar stock, then cut it off and did the final hardening and tempering. About 3" long and worked a treat.

[@kaoskronostyche9939]

"I hope that clears this matter up." Oh, does it ever. Metallurgy, manufacture techniques, varying sources of materials, different heat treating with comparison and demonstration. As usual great stuff, Mr Easton. This actually did clear up some questions I had. Thank you. Cheers!

[@Paladin357]

Right at the outset of such a discussion I would point out that modern reproductions are springy BECAUSE originals were springy. If you want to reproduce an antique (of anything, not just weapons), you have to study the original and its properties. The first smiths using more modern steels wouldn't have heat treated the blade to be spring-like if the originals weren't. If most originals were soft and easily bent, more modern swords would have been left soft or, probably more likely, used a lower carbon steel. If originals were mostly hard and brittle, modern makers would have hardened but not tempered the blade.

[@gregmckee5501]

I don't normally watch Matt for comedy, but his delivery on the crossbow point genuinely made me lol

[@iDEATH]

Me too, and I'm eating. Almost had chicken soup come out my nose.

[@MaliciousMollusc]

It's funny because even some Viking swords like the famous Ulfberth swords were renowned for being flexible, to the point that people thought they were magical.

[@julietfischer5056]

The swordsmith must have been Goibniu or Weyland himself!

[@ellentheeducator]

I personally bet some of this myth comes from the modern wushu floppy blades. The kind that are one step above paper, which is absolutely not how swords were made in the past.

[@romainburgy908]

Fun fact : if you go to a museum, they are legally obligated to let you spring any sword you want

[@markkodryk829]

Do they let you lick paintings too?

[@donsample1002]

@@markkodryk829Only the lead paint ones.

[@bigcunt5689]

Yeah you don’t even have to ask permission either

[@oldeays5085]

If you believe they will let you, your not to bright! Wether it's your right they don't care!

[@jacobcreech4415]

@@oldeays5085 too*

[@andreweden9405]

Matt, I'll never forget a particular video that came out about 3 years ago from a particular swordsmith working out of Baltimore. I was wanting you to debunk it from the moment it came out, so you couldn't have addressed it too soon in my opinion, nor can you talk about it too much!😃😂 There was a lot of misinformation in it! So thank you!😊 P.S., That mid 15th century fresco of Pipo Spano flexing his sword is exactly the same artwork that I referenced 3 years ago in my response in the comments section on the original video as well. It was one of the first things that came to my mind!

[@keirfarnum6811]

Ilya?

[@Dr.Kenobi264]

Yeah that video had a lot of things in it that made me raise my eyebrows. That being said, that swordsmith working out of Baltimore is still one heck of a swordsmith.

[@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699]

@@keirfarnum6811 yeah, though honestly, I don’t blame him for being skeptical. Analyses of medieval swords showed that they often had softer cores. He doesn’t have access to those antiques and no one before that Adam Savage vid demonstrated their flexibility. It would’ve been better if he’d consulted someone who did have access to antiques

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

Yeah, this is the same guy that tried to say European armor follow fashion through most of the period and that wasp waist where a armor fashion choice instead of a better wieght distribution choice of shifting wieght to the pelvis and that armor design was at first sex appeal instead added on. :/ Wierd views.

[@IPostSwords]

useful anecdotes: something like 80% of crucible steel swords I have handled take a set. Some of these were medieval, some renaissance, some early modern, from like 5 different countries. Most european swords I have handled are indeed springy, though that is more limited to renaissance and early modern.

[@SolidStructureWC]

"All you gotta do is go to a museum, pick up a sword, and flex" - Matt Easton

[@nowthenzen]

Matt making the case it's not the stiffness of your blade but how you flex it that counts.

[@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699]

Great vid! Out of all the medieval swords we have looked into (I mean material wise) what is the ratio between swords that were through hardened and ones that had iron/lower carbon steel cores? Also how late did swords still have those iron cores?

[@Tacklebox3000]

Some people confuse sharp blades being stiffer than a floppy training rapier to mean that the sharp isn’t a spring, and conflate that to mean historical blades didn’t flex

[@sgregg5257]

I had no idea that the springy aspect of swords, or lack thereof, was a controversial topic. Alas such are the times.

[@lucanic4328]

I think I went through this already but since you made this video, I'll leave it a comment again ;) In my opinion is more likely the opposite, that your average conosseiur of swords online will claim a perfect equivalence from period blades to a modern day albion with respect to properties. So the point is, steel does bend and return to true irrespective of their heat treatment - what quenching does, is changing the yielding point required to have a plastic deformation. That is, if you use X force to bend it, it will return to true but if you use X+n, it will take a set. This is true also for edge quenched blades that do present different steel phases and structure through their blade. Japanese blades for instance allow to take you some degree of deformation as shown by various test cuts done by Skallagrim in which differentially hardened blade definitely did deform while returning to true. This by taking into account the degree of force required to actually bend a thick sword. At the same time, I remember a younger Matt Easton trying to straighten back an early modern period sword with some challenges! So it is very much relative to what is defined by degree of sprigness, stiffness and such and different sword properties.

[@lucanic4328]

With that being said, modern spring tempered spring steel is far ahead to medieval and renaissance one, let'd be clear. You can ben to 180 or more degree a modern high end piece of steel. If you do it with a period sword, you will definitely break it or bend it.

[@ryanlang1548]

Chooch Scukum rightfully points out that everything is a spring is a spring to a certain point. He calls himself AVE on the youtubes. He does engineer stuff.

[@braddbradd5671]

I love how satisfyingly flexible that Alexander sword is

[@user-vb5sl3my3m]

Hi Matt love your program & the history. Question: could you do a video on the Chinese Dadao swords with a history of them & a test of Thier cutting ability.this would be a great video to watch.cheers 🇬🇧👍

[@kevinstewart1878]

Clearly there's nuances to this conversation that can't be covered by one blanket statement.

[@rustknuckleirongut8107]

About your sponsor, do you remember a few years ago when Rimowa suitcases were all the rage? The aluminium suitcases(much like your sponsor) that cost £1000+. You know why you rarely see Rimowa suitcases anymore? Aluminium suitcases dent like crazy and people paying premium prices are not happy when their suitcase looks like a hobo lives in it after two flights.

[@stunistus]

I haven't watched your channel in a while but now i am back you are about 10 times nerdier looking than before.

[@johndurish4092]

Perfect final rebuttal: The use of spring steel in crossbows

[@willo7734]

Sadly misinformation is rampant these days. The Internet has a lot of positive features but one of the biggest negatives is that anybody who reads a two bit “blog” or a couple of tweets about a topic then instantly think they are an expert. I sometimes miss the old days when you had to work harder to get knowledge. At least you knew that it was vetted. These days people think the world is flat and that experts are “in on the conspiracy”.

[@bsmnt23]

What about grossmessers and kriegsmessers? Were they springy like swords, or hard like knives?

[@Pablo668]

I do remember several years back a smith on YT who makes really nice blades did take up the argument that European blades were only springy from the 19th cent onwards. He is one that makes katana's using traditional techniques and has drunk the cool aid a bit on that subject. Having said that. he's very skillful and can make all kinds of blades. I was skeptical but didn't join the conversation. I do own an antique Katana, Edo period sometime, and it has taken a set to the right. I have bent it back several times but it always goes back, and, it's really springy, even though afaik they aren't known for being that springy.

[@ericthompson3982]

To be fair, a European blade incapable of flexing would be technologically pretty crappy, as it would be wildly more likely to fracture on contact with shields or armor.

[@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194]

Nice video answered the question i had since i've read in Wallhausen and others were they mentioned very stiff swords for cuirassiers against cuirassiers etc. One suggestion for a video i have is : Were some later fencing systems better than earlier ones? Marcelli and some other do mention that older fencing master knew how to better use the cut etc. I know that it is often also related to cultural changes and laws etc but are there fencing systems that evolved in something better or were later systems were improved? Or is that simply just a preference of tactics employed? Like objectively were better at everything/the same context. Another question is that a typ 13a sword on the thumnbail? Is that from the new windlass royal armoury batch?

[@julietfischer5056]

Combat fencing differs from contest fencing. Contest fencing has rules and etiquette (and modern fencing is about speed and touches). Combat fencing is about putting the pointy end through the other person first.

[@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194]

@@julietfischer5056 not really what i meant. rather self-defense for example agrippa compared to marcelli. or giganti to pascha, marcelli. both clearly talk about killing and self defense. giganti was around 1600 marcelli was 86 years later. or before that meyer.

[@althesmith]

A fair statement would be that the Medieval smiths tried their best to make fairly springy blades given the various qualities of materials available. Going by average hardness of actual swords from the period "kinda springy" was what they achieved with caveats. They didn't take a set easily but they certainly could take a set.

[@andrewmcneil6668]

I often see this same sort of issue going on with other things as well. Old cars, old firearms, people, etc and on and on. It comes across to me actually as some sort of way for some people to rip on anything outside a certain age range. Just strikes me in that way.

[@julietfischer5056]

There's this idea that anything old has to be more primitive and inferior, with no recognition of changes in technology or tastes or needs. As for old people, it's the stereotype of the hidebound, "Get off my lawn!" elder who refuses to accept that things are now different, and the attitudes and customs of their youth are just that.

[@andrewmcneil6668]

@@julietfischer5056 Personally, I think modern man is, for the most part, a thoroughgoing P.O.S.

[@julietfischer5056]

@@andrewmcneil6668- Humans have been shitty to each other since before we were human. Unlike our hominid ancestors, we can rationalize our brutality.

[@shukln]

Could you do an analysis on drooping crossguards that the Bronze Age civilizations used to prefer: Advantages v Disadvantages. They looked like this: -----

[@MendocinoMotorenWerk]

"Feder" is literally the German word for "spring"

[@TSmith-yy3cc]

There are so many processes involved in making a blade that it's pretty wild that so many centres managed to make them to the quality thst theu did. The flex also beats having a brittle stick of metal to fight with!

[@julietfischer5056]

"Taste my steel!" Sword snaps on impact. "Oh, shit."

[@Ketsuekisan]

"All you have to do is go to a museum, pick up a real medieval or Renaissance sword, and flex it." Must be a feature of British museums, to let random visitors just pick up and play with their collection.

[@stevenclifton624]

Springyness is also a great way to dissipate the extra or lost energy from cutting. Equal and opposite reaction right, so when I swing my sword and transfer the force of the cut to the target, the tool, whether sword or haft or arrow whatever *must*, also flex or bend or break kukris katana ax handle all also flex just less because they have more mass it's also why the blades you mentioned have only 1 edge and are typically broad because otherwise edge quenching wouldn't work. At least I think? Are many indian swords particularly broad and thick?

[@Redshirt214]

Don’t all springs, by definition, spring into existence? Great video Matt and glad to see a cross over with Tested!

[@antronk]

At last! A worthy sponsor! Bravo :)

[@MrAlepedroza]

How much stiffer would you say they were when comoared to training feders?

[@-RONNIE]

Thanks for the video ⚔️

[@boydgrandy5769]

Perhaps this issue arises from Norse or Scandinavian sword burials, typically found in rivers and bent into a u shape to "kill" the sword. It could be that folks conflate sword springiness to the properties of spring steel, which would tend to snap or brittlely cleave at the fail point rather than bend. Depending on the toughness of the blade, the heat treatment of the blade, and the quality of the work, most so called Viking swords would have been of a softer and less tough iron or steel (with the possible exception of the +ULFBURT+ relics), it should bend at its yield point rather than snap in a brittle manner.

[@TheAncientAstronomer]

I remember that episode and when Adam started flexing that longsword(?)my first thought was, please don't break, please don't break,please don't break! 😁

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yeah, I'm not here to criticize. But I wouldn't personally do that to a sword with such historical value and that's worth around $100K if I remember correctly (it went through auction several years ago).

[@TheAncientAstronomer]

@@scholagladiatoria Well apparently the curator whas of the opinion that it wouldn't break, but you're absolutely right, that is something that nobody should do to such valuable object, historically and monetary speaking.

[@IPostSwords]

@@scholagladiatoria the Harriet Dean (the pair of the alexandria XVIIIc in the met) sold for 386k pounds

[@charlottesimonin2551]

Reading E. Oakeshott "records of the Medieval Sword" is fascinating but the number of swords presented as found in water sources or excavated is astounding. It makes one wonder if some of the legend of inflexible swords comes from those retrieved but subtlety corroded items. Do you know of any catalogue of micrograph examinations of weapons by production era?

[@mrbloodylordbaronsamedi.9937]

I red yesterday that somebody around 1890 s said some people in my country near ruins of church is grave of legendry warrior one of nin brothers who got wounded in major medieval battle around 1905 some people dug up a grave of medieval warrior with panzer armor scale or chainmail and helmet from silver heavy around 4 kg on him with sword and battle flag

[@fuferito]

I heard that the reason why the Western Roman Empire fell was because their gladii were too rigid.

[@LancelotChan]

Thank you for this myth busting! This is important knowledge.

[@stormiewutzke4190]

The thing with really simple steel is that it can be hard to through harden.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes. And they were still getting it wrong with more modern steels and mass manufacturing in the 19th century. I think the important part is looking at what they intended to create, rather that focusing on the times they messed up and didn't manage it. We see a similar factor with armour, where Alan Williams has shown examples where they tried to harden a plate, but failed, either due to the material or the heat treatment process.

[@olivermilutinovic749]

Thanks for another informative video. Yes, spring temper is just the result of the right heat treat on the right steel for the process, nothing magical about them.

[@ulrichhammerla6838]

Early medieval „spathas“ were made with an iron core, often with decorative welding patterns, and „soled“ with a high carbon edge.

[@gehtdichnixan3200]

odes that case come in long sword sice?

[@bilbo_gamers6417]

Would you draw a distinction between swords owned and used by duelists or nobility, and those used by conscripts? Especially in the medieval period, would the prevalence of cheap mass produced swords be a good explanation for the disparity of quality you see?

[@GermanSwordMaster]

I noted, that youve worked on that topic lately and i only watched tge video to see who even says that they werent... Super weird idea. Never heard anyone claim that too 😅

[@williamarthur4801]

Have to confess it was one of the things I long believed, medieval swords were not springy, nothing to do with metallurgy, just if primarily you are chopping and hacking away a stiff blade is much better, i.e. katana.

[@HobieH3]

Well done, as usual.

[@AlarionSchmidt-xc2ro]

Dear Sir, thank You very kindly for that video! Chemistry is plain simple: Iron + Carbon (+0.8% C) = Steel (simply put) Make it hot snd cool it down quickly and you get hardened steel. Everything in between a hardness of 50° and 60° Rockwell C is automatically springy! No other way... Best wishes!

[@jonnypeterson3971]

Great video!

[@robertsimpson6324]

Flexibility is also a part of tempering level

[@jacobpettes335]

This subject is so interesting to me. I've seen historical examples of very springy swords, but I'm wondering, who exactly carried springy swords? When were they carrying them, and were springy swords common at that time? Who exactly would have been carrying springy swords?

[@julietfischer5056]

Fighters carried the springy swords. They wanted a weapon that wouldn't break at the first use.

[@dansmith4077]

Great video thank you

[@joemurphy1189]

A point to note also is when people say, ‘Renaissance swords were springy but medieval swords weren’t.’ Most people here speak English and in our heads, the Renaissance means Shakespeare, Marlowe, Kidd, Johnson etc. In other words 16th into the 17th Century. But the Renaissance actually began in the early 14th Century. So when you say ‘Renaissance swords’, you’re talking about stuff from 1320ish. That, to most people, is still medieval.

[@dereinzigwahreRichi]

So, about that sponsorship... If you are so very impressed by the sturdiness of that suitcase, how about you and good ol' Tod shoot some crossbows at it? Maybe some warhammer or axe testing, too,once you're at it? :⁠-⁠D

[@trikepilot101]

Thanks Matt.

[@lcrow3104]

The crossbow point makes a lot of sense. Makes me wonder how expensive is a military grade crossbow compares to a sword in medieval europe since they use the same main material?

[@kveitehitmaker6316]

I think I know what faction of people are saying that they are not flexible. Because their swords which they claim are superior to everything, well it doesn't flex, it bends. So how can the world be any better than them?

[@sybransnoeck6987]

I was wondering how much body weight a skillful swordsmen could transfer into a strike on a target. How much would this contribute to the total force delivered? Is it more important than wideness of a swing or the depth of a thrust? I imagine 10 kg is already potentially devastating. I hope I'm not being silly here. Maybe I got it all wrong.

[@Ming1975]

They made swords for sword fighting so being springy makes sense.

[@resisthouse]

Super boring point here, stiffness is a material property and its basically the same for all iron alloys (~200 GPa). Both iron and steel will have a degree of springiness, but the load that it can be deformed to and recover to its original dimension is increased by whatever heat treatment you apply.

[@steemlenn8797]

Let me ask a different question: Why springy? When I first saw those super bendy swords I was heavily surprised. Not that they steel is springy in itself. I was suprised by how much, yes. But more importantly: Why did they make their swords so bendy? I would have thought that in a fight more rigid is better and bendy is only in there to prevent the sword from shattering. But some of the swords go way above that.

[@stephenmccartneyst3ph3nm85]

Stiffer things are more brittle.

[@Tobascodagama]

I think that some people have a very strong inclination to view the medieval period as crude and brutish and unsophisticated, so obviously artifacts from that period must also be crude and brutish and unsophisticated. I also think there are two sub-groups in there, one of which views those qualities as a negative and another which views those qualities as a positive. 😆

[@julietfischer5056]

Send one of those fans of crude and brutish back in time and see how long they last against people who actually know how to do things.

[@darthvaper6745]

As an owner of various antique swords. The stiffness vs flex is a lot stiffer and much more useful that modern tempered blades. I think most modern replicas are far too springy

[@ewanhamilton1012]

Here's an unusual question: Do blades from a given period RETAIN their "springiness"? That is to say, does that property change over time? Obviously the footage of Adam Savage handling period blades etc demonstrate that SOME blades retain their springiness....but the excellent condition of them seem to suggest that those particular blades were well treated/stored for centuries and perhaps never saw "real use". Is springiness an imutable trait of the steel? Can it degrade if it's put through hard use and more mundane storage conditions? At any rate, thanks for your videos Matt!

[@lucanic4328]

It only changes through heat, so only if the blade is lost to fire. A very corroded, rusty piece of steel will still show tempered martensite in its microstructure if has been spring tempered

[@peterblake4837]

A point is mist in this programme - to wit, the properties of a steel can be substantially changed by alloys. It is conceivable that the origin of the ore and whatever traces of alloyed elements go to make the steel could result in an unexpected difference.

[@konstantinavalentina3850]

OFF TOPIC: I'm a little bit curious what modern technology, modern metallurgy, everything we know can come up with that might be the GOAT sword forever. Vibranium? Light Sabers? Those are all fiction, but, what properties of what elements could be combined to make the ultimate sword that would be more durable, practical, and all the things than harping back to spring steel, tomagachi steel, damascus, and silly "fantasy" things that exist more for looks than actual function. All I ever see is people talking about what was what 500 years ago, or more somewhere in the world. What can we make today with what materials that someone 500 years ago could never replicate or even attempt? Today will be history in the future, so, what's a benchmark that could be levelled today that couldn't be done yesterday? It doesn't have to look fancy future fantasy or anything ridiculous. What can we make today that would outperform any and everything from yesterday?

[@aaronludlo3331]

The reason people keep going back to spring steel, especially when discussing swordsmithing today, is because not only is it high quality steel, especially if you compare it to steel made prior to the Bessemer Process being discovered, but also because it's consistently high quality, kinda like wootz/Damascus steel or tamahagane steel if you want a rough historical comparison. It also gets you the mechanical properties you need to make a sword for the lowest cost because cost is always a factor regardless of what anyone says. To more directly answer your question, making a sword out of a steel like D2 or, if money was no object, some "secret sauce" alloy with trace amounts of elements found in some of the well-known steels from history (niobium + vanadium from wootz steel, iridium from iron meteorites, etc) would *maybe* get you some incremental improvement in material properties that could make the resulting sword a little better than what could have been made historically. Combine that with modern forging equipment (computer controlled presses, etc), modern heat treating equipment that can hold ludicrously tight temperature tolerances by historical standards (+/- 25°F is pretty easily achieved with today's equipment vs +/- 200°F if you're judging temperature by color), and modern machining + measurement equipment, you may get something that's 10% better than its historical equivalent. The difference is you could make that 10% better sword consistently and more or less on demand today. Replicating the dimensions of said sword would be difficult but doable by a historical smith but replicating the physical chemistry of the steel, much less doing it consistently? I'm not going to say it would be impossible but it would border on it. That's the real difference between what historical smiths could do and what today's smiths can do- we could make 100,000 swords today that are theoretically 10% better than a historical smith could make once if we *really* wanted to. Edited for grammar.

[@gobbygoberton7113]

Is that a new Windlass Royal Armouries sword 🗡️ you’re using for an example?

[@bilbo_gamers6417]

when i see this, i think of Ilya Alekseyev's video about sword steel. he talks about european swords in museums that show evidence of being bent and then bent back during use. i think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. late medieval or early renaissance swords were probably plenty springy, but early medieval swords probably weren't as much (or as often) so springy. i think this just shows the transition of quality as steel becomes better. but still, you look at European swords - even those owned by kings - and you see a lot of jewelry, but some very poor bladesmithing. file marks, warping, unevenness. quality clearly varied a Lot. and even Ilya, who is heavily biased in favor of the Japanese tradition, admits that Western European swords weren't terrible by any means. mamy early medieval swords were somewhat springy but often had hard edges and soft cores. that's all you can expect really.

[@culture-nature-mobility7867]

"...that SPRUNG into existence..." 😂😂😂👍

[@Zbigniew_Nowak]

But where did this doubt come from, since it is generally known that crossbows had flexible steel bows? People saw some pictures of broken swords and concluded that they must have broken when bent?

[@captainflint89]

This trope comes from the old anime lore that says "medieval swords were heavy , sharpened iron bars " and katanas are better ...

[@MrCmon113]

They were mostly inflexible, but curious antique arms dealers flexed and broke all of the inflexible ones so that only the flexible ones remain.

[@kleinjahr]

Most ancient civilizations had springs, we call them bows.

[@boydgrandy5769]

Made of wood, bone and sinew, or composites of the three. It was fairly late in post Roman Europe before crossbows with iron or steel bows emerged.

[@TheKiltedYaksman1]

Very few of them were tempered...

[@jacktingle215]

And to go further is roughly sophomore engineering metallurgy. One of my less favorite courses. Besides that, I later wound up needing nickle alpha-alpha' superalloys, not carbon steels.

[@lexion21]

there is no long lost tech, anywhere, sure we might not know how they specifically made certain things in the far past, but we can do everything humans have ever done, my fav example is greek fire. because, no we totally cant replicate that, fire on water that get more violent when you throw water on it? impossible! its not like people do that now and accidently burn their kitchens. we may not know how they made that back then, but we made and used worse fiery weapons than napalm

[@NirrumTheMad]

Wadsworth constant applies

[@cantunamunch]

Begs the question - what happened in really cold weather?

[@cantunamunch]

Talk to Drach about brittleness of cold naval steels...

[@IPostSwords]

"cold shortness" is totally a thing, and worsened by phosphorus in the steel. we have historical accounts of swords being brittle in the cold

[@craigjomaia]

Shrinkage. Sometimes of the swords too.

[@Lemurion287]

I think some of them might be thinking that if the great swordsmiths of Japan didn't make springy katanas then clearly the obviously inferior European smiths of the Medieval era couldn't make springy swords.

[@eagle162]

No.

[@mialumsymclaxni4736]

This video is just one big flex. 😂😆

[@peterblake4837]

If you put the point of my Wilkinson on the floor and bend the sword 90° then let it go, the weapon will spring some 3 metres. The blade was made in 1901. Oh, the blade returns to the original dead straight after the abuse.

[@seanhollingsead1628]

Let me start by saying I agree medieval swords were springy...but is there some evidentiary bias because springy swords are more likely to survive, where stiff/less springy blades were likely to snap?

[@garethbarry3825]

I think the myth may have come from blacksmiths like myself who look at the metallurgy, heat treatments and impurities of medieval swords. Essentially, the steels were ALL shallow hardening, with the hardness all over the place along the length of the blade. I have made a sword once from plain mild steel, and it was plenty flexible, and i am certain would have been a perfectly useable sword. Its point of plastic deformation was easier to reach, but the thing was plenty tough. I was actually shocked reading the research eg by Dr Williams as to just how poor the steels were by modern standards.

[@nilo70]

You mean it’s NOT Atlantean knowledge handed down from mother to daughter for Eons ? Shoot ! Cheers From California 😊

[@robo5013]

I think a lot of the misconception comes from people looking at the science of metal working, all these charts that give the strength values of different steels and other metals, and trying to extrapolate that information into what would make a sword function in a particular way. Most of it is pure ignorance due to lack of experience with the items in question. Book smarts is one thing but experience is quite another. Also what they fail to realize is those charts comparing the relative strengths of the different types of steel are meant for modern applications of those steels. The types of stress those steels are going to be placed under, such as holding up a sky scraper or used for the frame of a car, will be much greater that what a medieval person had to worry about for the effectiveness their arms and armor. People try to do that to me when they argue how much 'stronger' steel is compared to bronze when talking about armor. Certainly on paper steel is much harder than bronze and you wouldn't want to build a sky scraper using bronze beams vs. steel ones but when it comes to something like armor it doesn't make that much difference. They somehow have this notion that since steel is so much harder than bronze that steel swords could slice through it like a light saber when that simply is not the case as there are plenty of examples of bronze used for armor well into the age when steel was developed (not so much in the middle ages, mainly as a cost factor). They will still quote all these values (ones I doubt they understand themselves) about how much stronger steel is until I point out that most cannons up until self contained artillery rounds (@ WWI) were made of bronze and even modern shells are made of brass. Once again making suppositions based on a limited, if at all, understanding of metallurgy vs actual experience and real world evidence.

[@waylander9265]

Most of this problem stems from the obsession of strength and the ignorance of toughness. Harder metals tent to be stronger, but they also tend to be more fragile. When evaluating which metals to use for different purposes both stats need to be considered rather than the highest strength value. Tough metals are less likely to crack. It’s why as you point out cannons were made with bronze up until more advanced techniques for metal working were developed. I’d say the issue stems more from people being half informed rather than fully informed

[@tatache5971]

They see me flexin, they hatin

[@jonathanwessner3456]

This is as prevalent a story as how swords are REALLY heavy. I keep getting told my longsword is at least 10 lbs (it is maybe 5-6, and it is a cheap one that doesn't flex well)

[@julietfischer5056]

I remember reading that bearing swords (those huge things you see in some illustrations) went from being functional weapons to useless display pieces over time. My memory could be wrong. Probably the idea came from people who only saw Big F*cking Swords and concluded that they _had_ to be heavy just from the size. Movie swords might have aided that misconception long before the overweight Atlantean sword of the first Conan movie. Not to mention decorative wall-hangers that simply had to look good.

[@jonathanwessner3456]

@@julietfischer5056 Yeah, I remember the giant "Guard Swords" that just had to look big and scary, but, were in fact, pretty much just bars of metal in a sword shape.

[@julietfischer5056]

@@jonathanwessner3456- Guard or bearing? I may have misremembered what they were called. They originated as functional swords, then became intimidating showpieces. Although, being able to waste money and meta on useless crap does a pretty good job of displaying power and wealth.

[@jonathanwessner3456]

@@julietfischer5056 Bearing swords, but, they were ceremonial in nature, being held by guards whose job it was to look scary.

[@julietfischer5056]

@@jonathanwessner3456- Thank you. There are so many terms to remember.

[@owen8652]

I like big swords and I cannot lie..

[@frankharr9466]

I buy that.

[@rileyernst9086]

You'd have to be pretty tough to flex a type XIV LOL.

[@vladimirandreevich]

You sold me the f-ng suitcase