Why I HATE the longsword MURDER STRIKE! (Mordschlag or Mordhau)

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Why I hate the 'mortschlag', or murder strike, with any type of sharp sword.
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[@scholagladiatoria]

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[@delfinenteddyson9865]

friendship ended with Raid. Now NordVPN is best friend

[@vadimflaks7795]

@@delfinenteddyson9865 THANK FUCK. Raid is awful in every way that counts and NordVPN provides an actually useful service. Glad to see Matt getting better sponsors.

[@gerryjamesedwards1227]

Hi, Matt, you could ask Tod whether he'd be happy doing a murder-strike. I'm betting his hands are like leather and might be more representative of fighting men of the period.

[@meltingteeth7807]

Good, take your dumptruck of money from Nord instead of some shit-ass company like Huusk or Raid.

[@lightningandodinify]

@@delfinenteddyson9865 you make this sound wholesome >~

[@drb5538]

Skall did a revisit to this and found that with bare hands he actually cut himself without swinging full power at a improvised metal helmet. With thin leather gloves however he could swing hard enough to bend the pommel with no consequence to his hand. On another note it is rather amusing watching a man in a tarbush do a murder stroke.

[@Marveryn]

it was good of skall to sacrifice his hands for our benefit. all it shown that is possible but not something to do with a barehand

[@matthewmuir8884]

Yeah. The combination of cuts to his hand when doing the technique barehanded and him bending the pommel after repeated use made me think that this is a technique meant to be used only in an absolutely desperate situation; it is not meant to be practiced and used regularly.

[@GalladeTheWarrior]

I wonder if people had callouses on their hands hard enough to not cut themselves when doing this; seeing as so many of the depictions are bare handed

[@Anonymous07192]

@@matthewmuir8884 agreed. And the desperate situation logic continues into the use of bare hands instead of wearing gloves. If you are caught bare handed (pun intended) and with no armour fighting a fully armored opponent who clearly wants to kill you..... ultimately it could be a question of what you want more - potentially f***ed up hands or no life. I think in a desperate situation the grip will work as it operates as well of a blunt weapon a sword possibly could be (and you would know that blunt strikes are much more effective against armor than cutting) even if it will cause damage to your hands in the process.

[@charlesghannoumlb2959]

Hello sir Dr B this is a european cap what matt is wearing on his head andvits not a turkish tarboush(fezz) but it sure looks so much like it but maybe am mistaken am not really positivily sure and in all cases it looks fun and amusing like you've said already😁

[@acethesupervillain348]

If Tod's still doing whacky weapons with you, it'd definitely be cool to see if he'd build one of those murderstroke-centric swords to try out

[@misterdoodle3447]

Yes! Everybody like this to push it to the top.

[@ericblevins6467]

Excellent idea; would love to see that video.

[@JSRLPadre]

Go, Tod, GOOO!

[@Immopimmo]

Agreed!

[@mangalores-x_x]

Tod can equip you with prosthetics like Götz von Berlichingen afterwards, I am sure! For science!

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

It's an extremely niche move, but I think the reason it comes up more often than it really should in context of fiction and practise is that not only does it look cool but any instance in which it is a practical move is a dramatic and exciting situation.

[@midshipman8654]

but personally, even in a practical situation, i think its unweildyness would be inoptimal. id say if you needed blunt force, just use the regular grip and hit with the pommel or guard after closing in, like some brass knuckles, so you dont have to fiddle with changing your grip or the other things matt mentioned. but yes it does look good.

[@monkeyboy275bobo8]

I just had another thought. Effectively using a sword requies skill. Pulling off combat techniques from training in an actual life and death situation requies experience. Without that even trained people will probably panic or freeze. And properly utilizing a sharp blade against an armored opponent is not a very instinctive thing to do while everyone can hit someone with a club. So i can totaly see people just swing that thing at the attackers head in a panic because they cant think of anything else. Beeing confronted by a guy in full armor whos trying to kill you is a pretty scary thing i imagine and people tend to not always act rational when they fear for their life.

[@johnshite4656]

@@midshipman8654 You guys think it looks good??? I think it looks retarded. I'd be like "wtf? well that guy's about to die."

[@MartijnVos]

I was definitely fascinated by it, but I've never seen it as a very serious technique. You basically turn an excellent and very optimised weapon into an improvised weapon. I could maybe imagine it as a finishing move; your opponent is already on the ground, and you just want to bash him quickly hoping to take him out so you can move on. It's a fun technique exactly because it's so ridiculous, but I can't really imagine using it in a normal fight.

[@cosmiccorpse8571]

@@monkeyboy275bobo8 even still it's not ergonomically design to be held that way, the flexibility in the blade too would make it feel more like swinging and extra firm Bad Dragon dildo at your foe instead of a rigid percussive weapon. At that point the person is better off having just bought a mace to walk around with instead, cheaper too🤷‍♀️.

[@toddellner5283]

The anti-armor swords sound a lot like they're trying to evolve into polearms. At that point I can see why a knight might just say "Forget it. If I need a can opener I'll buy a good can opener, not a knife with canopener-adjacent features"

[@adambielen8996]

I'm guessing that for a lot of those duals they had to specifically use swords. So they brought "swords".

[@ericblevins6467]

Also, lugging a polearm around in everyday life would be a huge pain in the butt. This sword would swing at your side, out of the way, like a normal longsword.

[@Feldscher1039]

@@ericblevins6467 I don't think a "two handed spikes all over the place"-sword would be carried like a normal longsword. You'd fuck up your clothing and probably spike yourself every few steps.

[@robrib2682]

To be fair you have to consider the fact that a pole arm for a good chunk of medieval history was the cutting-edge military arm used in armies, and it was probably extremely illegal to own let alone use one if you weren't part of the army or a guard on duty

[@ericblevins6467]

@@Feldscher1039 I wasn't really thinking about the spiked German swords from the manuscripts, but more in the line of a very stiff bladed war-hammer analogue, possibly with tapered quillons for good armor penetration; carrying a weapon like that shouldn't pose a problem. That said, watching somebody carrying around one of the really pointy-spiked weapons would be funny as hell...but it might lead to the warrior carrying it always fighting duels with dudes who laughed at his torn tights.

[@alex.e.hamilton1999]

As a Hand Surgeon I would like to ask that nobody tries the murder strike with a sharp blade. We’re busy enough in the nhs already. Five digit, nine tendon, multiple digital nerve, and possible revascularisation injuries would take about 20h of theatre time.

[@matthewdavies2057]

I can just imagine the Pt. walking into the ED humble as a can be, explaining how he cut his fingers to the bone in his back yard. With a sword. Backwards. And he's sane. And sober. Honest! I would have come running to hear that one.

[@Tennouseijin]

A knight walks into a smithy's: Hey blacksmith, I have to fight a duel in armor and I'd rather use a mace, but the rules say I have to use a sword. Can you make me a sword that's actually a mace? Blacksmith: *audible sigh* Some time later, somewhere else: Hey mister Talhoffer, there's this new craze about these 'mace-swords', can you teach me how to use one? Talhoffer: *audible sigh*

[@danhaas9730]

Another big point against the murder stroke is that it really lacks any form of defensive ability. If you’re unarmored, facing an armored opponent, they already have an advantage over you in the defensive department. Why make your disadvantage when greater? A standard sword grip or half-swording allows you a fair bit of ability to parry, redirect, and block your opponent’s strikes, while a murder stroke grip is very difficult to effectively parry or deflect with, and if you’re unarmored, you generally want as much defensive ability as you can get.

[@MisdirectedSasha]

You can deliver a murder stroke from half-swording fairly quickly if your opponent exposes their head or knees and is momentarily not threatening you. You get the small advantage of changing the reach and angle of your attack from the kinds of techniques you normally use in half-swording too, which can make a hit more likely. It shouldn't be your plan A, armoured or not, but as an opportunistic way to get a big, blunt impact on an opponent who exposes themself to it, there's some value to the technique.

[@alpharius4966]

Interestingly, Gladiatoria discusses two ways to counter a Mordhau, but only recommends using the Mordhau as a finisher when your enemy is disarmed and lying on the ground.

[@donsample1002]

Which is why I think it's something you do to someone you've already beaten, when you aren't going to let them surrender. Hence the "murder"

[@philhughes3882]

@@donsample1002 - Good point. There has to be some reason why this technique is named as murderous when others, such as ramming a sword point into an opponents eyeball / guts / head / neck / crotch / torso / neck etc etc etc etc, are not. A horse is a horse, is it not?

[@tedarcher9120]

What if you are armored against an armored opponent and only weapon you have is a longsword?

[@vaillencourt]

I've often wondered the extent to which some of the more unusual techniques illustrated in the historical treatises were essentially the renaissance equivalent of the "tacticool" trends you sometimes see in the modern shooting community. You know, things like "thumb over bore" or "center axis relock" stances that look quite cool, but do not really reflect how people generally handle firearms in combat.

[@Riceball01]

I've seen it mentioned somewhere (forget where exactly) that some of these moves were put in dnot because they work but as a way to tell when someone is copying their work but trying to pass it off as their own. So some teacher of swordsmanship writes their own treatise, then years later they see another treatise that looks suspiciously like theirs, they can tell that they copied it because of dummy moves they've included. in their treatise for that exact reason.

[@chroma6947]

@@Riceball01 They were put in as filler for an expensive book that nobles wasted money on. End of story.

[@johnbennett1465]

@@Riceball01 I know for a fact that creators of dictionaries do this. I created a spelling checker and dealt with the linguists from companies we licensed our word lists from. We talked about this very issue.

[@midshipman8654]

I mean, think of the audience, they were often made in commision for nobles, and ofteb eccentric stuff, like duel rapiers, or how to fight with peasents farming tools or under specific rules, or under certain judicial circumstances were a marketing poiny.

[@DAHSspookyyYyyy]

@@Riceball01 basically anti-art-theft measures.

[@seanpoore2428]

I do like how you frame the argument as a personal subjective opinion With supporting evidence, rather than just saying "its dumb and doesn't work here's why I'm right"

[@scholagladiatoria]

Thanks - this is how I HAVE to come at subjects like this, and I despise people who approach these sorts of subjects with an "it doesn't work for me so they must be wrong" attitude. That is an incredibly arrogant and noobish attitude, which merely goes to illustrate how the people taking those hardline stances are usually not people worth listening to, as their views are shallow and entrenched, and unlikely to evolve in the future.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

This is the attitude that people need if they want to actually improve. Saying 'this NEVER works' sets you up to reject future evidence that you might be wrong, and stops you from learning further. Saying 'this shouldn't work' prompts real discussion and development of the idea, and means that if someone can come up with a way that it would work you can add that knowledge to your own.

[@bologna3048]

I disagree, I hate that he does it this way rather than the other way, it's what I'm used to! Change scares me!

[@seanpoore2428]

@@bologna3048 shall we tell you you're objectively wrong to make you more comfortable? :D

[@TimmyTurner421]

@@seanpoore2428 lol got him!

[@connor712]

Matt used the crying soyjak in one of his videos. What a time to be alive.

[@beowulfshaeffer8444]

Yeah, I've done the murder strike bare-handed with a sharp long sword (against a hanging car tire, swinging hard, maybe 85-90% my max). I managed not to draw blood, but it was very uncomfortable and bit into the top layer of skin. I think it's viable, but not the kind of technique I prefer. Never do it with a greasy blade, though :)

[@Mightylcanis]

A hanging car tire isn't going to offer the same resistance that a grounded, human-weight target would, a lot of the energy will go into swinging the tire and be spent that way.

[@beowulfshaeffer8444]

@@Mightylcanis It's what I had at the time. I was inspired by this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKjYgoOcq7iGotE and there happened to be a conveniently situated tire swing. I suppose I'll have to film myself trying it with a heavy bag or a pell sometime.

[@ghoulishgoober3122]

I wouldn't be surprised if these people depicted doing mordhau barehanded have very callused hands

[@DuncanMcBride]

HE PUT THE CRYING SOYJACK IN THERE, what an absolute madlad. Matt never fails to surprise in the very best of ways

[@dantealivieri5390]

It's also a png with background

[@DuncanMcBride]

@@dantealivieri5390 impeccable taste, really

[@MasoTrumoi]

I wonder how much of this is like an MMA fighter training to do that fancy "jump off the wall to get height for a jumping kick" kick that there are a few knock-out videos. A lot of these swordsmasters were professionals, both in training and duelling. They needed to know techniques that kept them alive, of course, but after a point of doing this, they would probably become very self-assured. The context of being bored is shockingly common in excuses for bad decisions. Now, not saying the murder strike is always stupid, but that fancy kick I mentioned? You'll almost never pull it off. It's a near-pointless advanced technique. However, when you land it, you've proven you CAN land it, and then all the clips end up on KZbin. That virality of shock might've been very important for German swordmasters to stand out from each other. If your swordmaster is so orthodox that he never breaks out of the basics, he's definitely skilled but not exciting. If he wins 5 duels to prove himself, but no one talks about any of those duels, he's clearly skilled but just sounds successful. The guy who won 5 fights and two of them with a murder strike? HE sounds skilled and prodigious and exciting. Keep in mind I say "sounds". I don't think it's necessarily true that the more flamboyant wins means the better the fighter. My point is that flamboyant moves are what people remember, and being remembered is very important when you are trying to attract high profile students.

[@johnladuke6475]

I know it's not what you meant, but I like the mental picture of Talhoffer or Fiore deciding to do one of these extra-fancy techniques so they can make the highlight reel for youtube.

[@psyckla5]

@@johnladuke6475 I think hes saying that specialized fancy moves might be done for the sake of showing off to boost fame/notoriety. Needlessly difficult? Yes, cool? Also yes. If you win ten races whi cares but if you win ten races running backwards people pay more attention.

[@roycebunce9373]

Dude that's actually a really good point! Haven't thought of that before

[@Inogat]

flamboyance has its uses even in real combat situation. Confidence and prowess mean something on the battlefield. If you look dangerous, chances are you probably are dangerous too. Even if you're not you are conditioning your enemy. Fighting is mental too. (sorry if I was stating the obvious, I don't mean to be condescending)

[@gerryjamesedwards1227]

I don't know how much it would affect things, but the toughness of peoples' hands varies hugely. I've had periods of doing more manual labour than others, and my own hands have been through times when they were pretty tough. Handling ropes on a regular basis has toughened them up the most, and - through living in a boatyard for ten years - I met some guys who were working with rope, wood and metal all day with hands that were like wood coated in boiled leather. One guy shaved off a bit of horn like skin to test his chisels edges. I reckon a murder strike from someone like that would be very far from fun. I'm not saying "You have a lady's hands, Sir! I'll wager those hands have never..... etc.", btw.

[@eliseofernandez8116]

I was going to make the same point. From squire training to proper knight training, a knight's hand was likely pretty tough. A peasant hand would also be pretty tough.

[@gerryjamesedwards1227]

@@eliseofernandez8116 I think Tod's hands (of Tod's Stuff) would be pretty close. We should ask him if he'd feel happy hitting a tire with the hilt of a blade-gripped sword.

[@toddellner5283]

Your hands, even with serious calluses, are not nearly as tough as tanned leather. If everything didn't go _just right_ with the murder strike you could end up permanently crippled using a sharp sword, and that's with modern surgical technique, antibiotics, sterile procedures and all the rest. With Medieval medicine? If you didn't simply die from infection there's an excellent chance you would never be able to open and close your hands properly ever again. And in those times your hands were your livelihood. Risking them for a low-percentage technique would be impressive. Impressive but stupid.

[@mikeumm]

I have been a mechanic, heavy construction laborer, or landscaper for the past 15 years... fuck that, I'm wearing gloves.

[@toddellner5283]

@@mikeumm Yep. How do you make a living at any of those things if the tendons in your hand are sliced through?

[@Dumorimasoddaa]

I feel this is very much a last ditch technique that’s got more coverage than, it warrants. It could also be included in treaties as a this is a thing people can do and you best be aware of it and to defend against it.

[@itinerantpoet1341]

Sure, but it's trivial to defend against someone bashing with a weapon not designed for that purpose. And even if the guard and pommel are sharp, the blade itself is not designed for this purpose. So it's unwieldy used this way, and a competent should have no trouble against this method. (It would be similar to how you parry a proper bashing weapon, just easier:)

[@jasonmccord1287]

I feel like long swords with bridle cutters would be better

[@donsample1002]

I think the name is a hint: MURDER strike. It's something you do to an opponent you've already won against, and aren't going to accept a surrender from, or don't want to leave wounded on the field.

[@nirfz]

I my not be qualified to judge (having only taken a brief look) but i would agree. It looks like a "if you run our of options, do something unexpected that distracts your opponent." thing. He might be distracted for long enough that you can throw him off his feet. The pictures following the Mordhau pictures portrait the guy who "murderstroked" throwing the opponent, or grappeling/wrestling with him while his sowrd is on the ground. And the huy who "parried" the Mordhau still holds his sword in the parry position. Something similar would be: throwing your weapon straight into the air and hoping that your opponents eyes follow the weapon, woondering what's going on, giving you time to tackle him.

[@sbl8066]

i guess a heavy blow right under the cross-section could just cut off your fingers

[@MarcusVance]

From what I've seen, this is predominantly a German thing, and predominantly for dueling, trials, and judicial combat. Relatively rare, especially for how popular it is today.

[@roffels11-gamingandhistory69]

As a historian (got BA degree in history, doing my Master right now) from Germany, I agree with your statement. Most treaties mentioning those techniques in the Holy Roman Empire were written in what we now call Germany, yet also the southern parts of the Holy Romam Empire were familiar with these moves. No matter where we look, the context is always the one of duelling and a "last resort" attack. It's a "hit or miss" move, according to my own experience with blunt re-enactment swords and definitely overdone by re-enactors and HEMA guys.

[@mangalores-x_x]

@@roffels11-gamingandhistory69 is it actually called that or did we derive that from pictures? I was just wondering if it might be a more sensible technique if you plan to use it as a hook to topple or disarm an opponent. The pictures I know of when talked about it are actually rather ambiguous in that regard.

[@stefanb6539]

@@mangalores-x_x If you want to hook anything, you have to be 100% sure, the blade doesn't slip, as you are then literally pulling your fingers and or palm along the blade. Doing that with potentially sweaty hands, against a struggling and kicking opponent... I wouldn't want to try.

[@Obi-WanKannabis]

Skallagrim has a video where he strikes objects with a sharp sword using a murder strike. He says that you need to hold it differently, pressing your palm and fingers on the flat of the blade and make sure there is no pressure on the edge. Still seems like a risky technique, and I think with gloves and the right technique it is definitely possible. Doesn't mean that it's everyone's taste or willingness to do it. But if it never had a place I doubt it would be in treatises, even in the ones that use non specialized swords for it.

[@grizzlyblackpowder1960]

I thinks it's place was in judicial duels where you may be forced to deal with a wealthy person who owns armor, and by the rules of that particular court you had to bring a sword as opposed to a mace or hammer, like a last ditch move for those condemned to fighting a superior opponent. I don't think it was ever intended to be an instant win or a common technique. If you examine documents about historical duels throughout history, there were always odd obsessions. They weren't supposed to be common, but they existed either by extreme necessity or obsession. Skall also has many references to being "ended rightly" removal of the pommel as use as a projectile, it was in fighting manuals, but do you think that was common practice? In most settings it would be absolutely useless, but there it is, never mind that a large number of swords had pommel that could not be removed without serious effort.

[@yewtewbstew547]

He does it with a baseball grip in that video too, with his palms contacting the edge. As long as the blade doesn't slip it can't cut you. Which he also demonstrates is unlikely to happen. The thing he does at the beginning of the video for a gag where his wife is trying to yank the blade out of his hands was probably 100x more dangerous than the actual technique, yet the blade didn't slip then either.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Thank you for mentioning that Skallagrim video. It's a convincing demonstration, albeit not with exactly the type of sword shown in the sources the depict the murder stroke.

[@Bombur888]

@@grizzlyblackpowder1960 The huge difference is that the pommel throw is in one manual and isn't presented as particularly common, whereas the murder strike is way more attested.

[@Intranetusa]

There is a KZbin video called "Half Swording" that shows a murderstroke done against someone in full plate armor + plate helmet. The guy in plate armor suffered what seems to be a concussion (nausea, near puking, etc) after getting hit once on the head (at 3:10 mark of that video). That is also a good example of it in use.

[@jonathanmemole4811]

Is anyone as jealous as I am that Matt looks so legit and good in ANY type of headgear??!! Even a fez... a freaken fez!

[@VernonKun]

Actually I find the bright red hat a bit distracting after watching years of his videos lol

[@Runegrem]

He wears a fez now. Fezzes are cool.

[@drb5538]

Looks too tall to me to be a fez. Looks more like a tarbush.

[@Runegrem]

@@drb5538 That's fine. Tarbushes are cool too.

[@trampusschuck1019]

I watched a murder strike demonstration (I thought it was lindybiege or Jason Kingsley). One hit to the helmet rung the guys bell, almost made him sick and stunned him for a few seconds.

[@Finex1985]

here is the video kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJqaZmpjbL13b5Y

[@trampusschuck1019]

@@Finex1985 Thank you, good find!

[@jakubchalupa8510]

In that video the helmet has no liner and he doesn't wear any padding on his head. You can see it in few frames around 4:02. So the only thing that is meant to cushion the blow is not there, that makes it completely invalid test.

[@trampusschuck1019]

@@jakubchalupa8510 This type of helmet is called a sallet and they have a built in padded liner. You can kind of see in when he removes the helmet and the sound it makes he puts it down sounds dulled. They also state in the video that the helmet is period correct, which would also imply that it had a period correct liner.

[@fiddlesticks7245]

@@jakubchalupa8510 blud you don't know what you're talking about. Sallets have built in liners and were worn without arming caps all the time.

[@holyknightthatpwns]

This isn't particularly supported by the texts (to my knowledge), but I feel like I would resort to a murder stroke if my sword's tip has been damaged and I'm trying to figure out how to damage an armored opponent.

[@MetalZoned]

Good point, I had not thought of that

[@RonaldMcDonald519]

Bollock dagger time.

[@MasoTrumoi]

​@@RonaldMcDonald519rondel as an alternative

[@leifroarmoldskred6370]

So it's like a flying wheel kick? Flashy, impressive looking, people do practice them and on rare occasions they might even be used in a fight and work, but something simpler would usually do the job better.

[@thomasjohnson308]

This is my take as well, coming from Tradition Chinese Martial arts where we had a few centuries of civilian combat at the end with competing schools all trying to be more cool and awesome than each other. The result was many solid and sensible systems with a few flashy ridiculous techniques tacked on to make them more appealing. I very much suspect that the murderstroke is shown to suggest that practitioners of that school's art are so much better than others that they can defeat an opponent while holding a sword backwards. I have friends in Japanese arts who tell me that the manuals released with their school's techniques have deliberate mistakes and fake techniques in there to obfuscate the real teaching and retain an element of surprise. This may also apply to the murderstroke.

[@colefowles4003]

The part about hair protecting from blows was interesting and I wanted to share a story. When I was a young carpenter I grew long dreadlocks down to my waist that I wore in a bun on top of my head. Once on a job remodeling a church I removed my hard hat for a moment to wipe sweat off my forhead and at that same moment a coworker working 25ft above me on scaffold lost his grip on a downward swing of his 25oz framing hammer basically throwing his hammer down at me at full power. The hammer stuck me full force on the yoga bun on the top of my head and bounced off with me luckily almost completely unharmed, just a small goose egg from what would have been a really really awful injury. Afterward I've often thought perhaps that's why some warrior cultures wore locks or long hair. 🙏🔨

[@MetalZoned]

That's crazy, glad you were ok, quite a story

[@hendrikvanleeuwen9110]

The strength of Solomon! lol. Fwiw, Samurai haircuts are designed to be styled in a way that acts as under helmet protection.

[@MrNuclearz]

I hope you also learned to NEVER take off your helmet for any reason inside a construction zone.

[@hendrikvanleeuwen9110]

@aaa yes, a liner would do the same thing and is what most people's used. Nevertheless look into 'chonmagi', the hairstyle in question. The hair was wrapped and laid over the top of the head to provide cushioning.

[@JuardianK]

Glad you put this out, for years forums have been flooded with "HEMA guys"(people parroting youtubers) who spam this in discussions. Couldn't get through a thread without someone posting pics of the treatises and acting as though this technique was amazing and made the longsword the most versatile weapon in existence. This along with your more recent videos on Japanese swords present a far more balanced view and lead to much better discussions in the community.

[@grizzlyblackpowder1960]

I understand why people like the murder stroke, what I don't understand is how they could possibly believe it's effective. But I'm not a Hema guy and my only sword training is in rapier, so I guess I wouldn't have the prerequisites to understand it's effectiveness. I mean I don't even own a longsword lol.

[@Intranetusa]

​@@grizzlyblackpowder1960 There is a KZbin video called "Half Swording" that shows a murderstroke done against someone in full plate armor + plate helmet. The guy in plate armor suffered what seems to be a concussion (nausea, near puking, etc) after getting hit once on the head (at 3:10 mark of that video).

[@Intranetusa]

​ @Grizzly Gaming and Hobbies There is a KZbin video called "Half Swording" that shows a murderstroke done against someone in full plate armor + plate helmet. The guy in plate armor suffered what seems to be a concussion (nausea, near puking, etc) after getting hit once on the head (at 3:10 mark of that video).

[@EvilJoeReaper]

@@Intranetusa I mean, since the person in armor keeps dodging and turning the back of his head towards the pommel, the hits are from those, the results are that he got hit pretty close to the back of the head and all he got is minor concussion? just to be clear by minor I mean he also took very similar hits later on at 4:32 and very clearly in the back of the head at 4:52. We do know that striking sports prohibit striking to the back of the head, granted it's unarmored. We also don't know if he's actually gotten hit once, as shown in 4:32 and 4:52. Actually you know what, the helmet is shown closer at 4:22 and there are 3 dents, 1 at "right side" and on the top and 2 at "left side", one on the top and one on the back so there is no way he got hit once. It's likely that the hit that put him down is the second one on the "left side". This would suggests he already gotten hit in the head at least 2 times, and if they stopped fighting once he's down, this would also suggests the hit at 4:52 in very quite clearly the back of the head didn't put him down, that or after he got hit at 3:10, he later went on to take the hit at 4:52 and I'm pretty sure he's not in the hospital. TLDR; I'm pretty sure he didn't get hit just once in the head.

[@NevisYsbryd]

@@Intranetusa He got a permanent injury from that incident, actually. That was a major point in John Clements now-infamy.

[@grizzlyblackpowder1960]

I whole heartedly agree with you. It may have been a last ditch thing for judicial duels where swords were the weapons allowed, so people fudged their way into having a mace and it got popular enough to have people create weapons that reinforce those tactics. But I honestly can't see it being of much help in a conflict where your opponent doesn't have to follow rules or rulings. I mean in your hypothetical street attack, why would this armored enemy walk up to the front of you, and give you the opportunity to flip your weapon around in the first place?

[@lunacorvus3585]

I still remember the first time I wanted to try doing murder strike. I carefully tried to hold the sword on its blade the immediately had a gut feeling that ‘something would go wrong’ if I try to swing the sword that way. I putted the sword down and thought ‘well maybe I am just not skilled enough’ since I knew it is a real historical technique. Glad to know I made the right choice that day.

[@kinbolluck476]

I WOULD LIKE TO TOUCH YOUR GLAND

[@Vyrtus_]

1. You’re going to loose all fingers. 2. You’re handing your sword to your opponent. “Here would you like my sword. Here’s the handle so you can grab it safely”

[@Tom-mk7nd]

I think Skallagrim already performed a light murder strike on a tire, I can't remember if the blade was sharp though. But yes I agree completely with your argument

[@Specter_1125]

It was a sharp blade, and he was hitting the tire decently hard.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

The blade was sharp & Skallagrim appears to hit the tire quite hard, repeatedly.

[@midshipman8654]

he does, but he hits in one way in a very controlled environment. not really accounting for glancing blows, potential slips (its not like its ensured NOT to happen in a fighting senario) or really how you would use the technique in a back and forth fight rather than just hitting a tire.

[@ForwardSynthesis]

@@midshipman8654 I think that's really really key. Matt isn't saying that the murder stroke doesn't work; he's saying that he personally considers the risk worse than the reward. He doesn't even want anyone to try it, but Skall having done it only shows it is possible, which the treatises of course show as well. It's just something that could easily go wrong when you add in the chaos of battle. Skall himself says it's all fine and he can hit the tire really hard so long as his hands don't slip, but hitting a moving target is way different from hitting a static target hard. In a battle if you hit someone at an odd angle and your hands slip even a centimeter, the consequence could be that the tendons in your hands are cut into.

[@Duhya]

​@@ForwardSynthesis Nobody parry me or touch my sword, i'm gunna do a trick shot.

[@IshanDeston]

For science: make a contraption with a pivot point and something heavy that you can cause the "arm" to rotate with. Put up a hard surface at the other end, and tightly wrap the sharp blade in thin leather, meat and bone, attach it to the arm. Then drop the heavy object, and let the blade impact the hard surface... start with 25pounds, go up to 100... humans can strike with up to 400 pounds of force (on average), i think you should "cut" the meat or even bone way before that.

[@johnbennett1465]

While this would be interesting, it is a lot of work. Probably much more than you think.

[@Darren5731]

or: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKjYgoOcq7iGotE

[@GiordanoBruno42]

I always assumed that this move was exclusively used to finish an opponent that stumbles or falls down. In that case it seems a little safer as you have an advantage already. But to do it while the opponent is on their feet seems really risky even ignoring potential finger loss.

[@Intranetusa]

There is a KZbin video called "Half Swording" that shows a murderstroke done against someone in full plate armor + plate helmet. The guy in plate armor suffered what seems to be a concussion (nausea, near puking, etc) after getting hit once on the head (at 3:10 mark of that video).

[@queery]

Here it is: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJqaZmpjbL13b5Y

[@mailais3403]

@@queery The swords used there is a blunt and you you see him literally slide his hand across the blade which you wouldn't want ti do on a sharp and I also don't think John Clement is a good representative for this he is uhh kinda wack

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

@@mailais3403 The swords used for historical murder strikes may well have been blunt too, as it appears overwhelmingly in the context of fully armored arranged duels with set weapons & often clearly specialized swords with spiky pommels & guards. Philippo di Vadi said to only sharpen a sword for fighting in armor four fingers from the tip.

[@matthewmuir8884]

I'd say that the mordhau definitely comes across as a "keep it in mind so you can use it in a desperate situation" technique rather than a "practice this so you can use it regularly" technique.

[@mikeboundy5115]

Interesting video. One thing that caught my attention, as not being mentioned, is that if you are expecting to fight an armoured opponent then you would not have sharpened your own blade. The treatise pictures looked like set-piece battles were there was a good chance you knew ahead of time who your opponent was and what he'd be wearing. If you know your opponent will be in plate then don't waste time sharpening your sword, or grab your non-sharpened one. If you're walking around town expecting only unarmoured riffraff and so you're carrying a sharpened sword, and a "tank" appears, don't mortschlag!

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

The context for the murder strike technique in period manuals is indeed almost always an arranged duel in full harness with set weapons. (The only exception I'm aware of is one murder strike with a messer from Johannes Lecküchner in what appears to be an unarmored fight.) The artwork often depicts swords with spiky pommels & crosses, so we know they were specialized weapons. Philippo di Vadi wrote that one should only sharpen a sword for fighting in armor four fingers from the point. So I think it's likely the murder strike was primarily used with mostly blunt blades while wearing gauntlets. However, Paulus Hector Mair's version does show & say to grab the blade by the tip for certain murder strikes & other techniques. I'm not sure what's going on there.

[@mikeboundy5115]

​@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 That sounds correct.

[@RaderizDorret]

I'm pretty sure Skallagrim has already demonstrated the Murder Strike using his Albion Caithness several years ago and that thing was quite sharp. He hit a steel-rimmed tire with it and didn't get cut.

[@klapsvin]

I've have demonstrated this move a quite few times at mediavel events on a fixed helmet, with a sharp longsword without gloves. It does a fair amount of blunt damage against an armor, but it is very uncomfortable on the hands. That being said, i have yet to cut myself doing this move (cut myself plenty of times doing other stupid shit though...)

[@RaderizDorret]

@@klapsvin I've practiced the murder strike in air and quickly learned that my swinging technique plays a lot into how much the blade wants to slide in my hands. That and using a thinner bladed sword (Windlass Bosworth) is a lot less comfortable than using a falchion for the same type of strike.

[@anteeantee8144]

you have to keep in mind that the guard might get hooked to something and you dont have that much controll because its top heavy if the guard gets hooked at something and you hitting full force your hand will slide along the edge.... 100%... you cant put such a big force on the blade that it wound budge hitting a static target is one thing... but in a fight... chances are you gonna cut yourself... a blade with an dull 1mm edge can split your hand open

[@MartinGreywolf]

It seems it falls to me to inform Matt that his challenge has been already met, IIRC - Skallagrim had a video few years back where he did just that, mordschlaged a tire. There is one advantage to mordschlag that wasn't mentioned in this video, that kind of explains why you would want to do it - mordschlag has a significantly greater range when compared to half-swording. If you have a sword that can do it effectively, it can be a tempting thing to throw against someone seemingly out of measure. That would move mordschalg to the same family as lancing (i.e. one handed strikes with two handed weapons), a sometimes technique to surprise your enemy with more range than they were expecting.

[@chroma6947]

Or you can trip the opponent and pull your dagger out..

[@yewtewbstew547]

@@chroma6947 How is that less dangerous or more likely to turn out in your favour though? It isn't. If you go in for a takedown, the other guy is going to try and reverse it and go for his own dagger. He's not just going to flop on the ground and present his throat to you.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Based on the manual depictions & Skallagrim's demonstration many years ago, I'm skeptical the murderstroke gives much greater range if any. Gripping the sword far down the blade would make it harder to execute. That long-range grip appears in some artwork of the technique, but not most. & there are a lot of panels that indicate halfswording & the murderstroke had about the same reach.

[@benevolentworldexploder5395]

I was thinking about that video, yeah. Grappling an opponent in armour is dangerous, especially if you aren't in armour. They have more room to make mistakes and the disparity between who is harmed in those mistakes comes down to a lot of things. We know that increasing your range in combat was incredibly advantageous. If I may argue, however, the same problem still exists if you use the mordschlag. Skallagrim talks about this problem in one of his videos when discussing the effectiveness of spears. If your opponent is able to close the gap, then they effectively eliminate your advantage, and now you've got a weapon that cannot be maneuvered as easily. Obviously, this rule of thumb always applies in both directions and regardless of technique; but a blade pointed to you rather than a pummel is kind of a problem when you are attempting to distance yourself again to wrangle back control. The thing is, we know that there were specially designed weapons which measured better against armour than a sword. To me, the mordschalg appears to be a move made from either a place of desperation or extreme advantage. I don't think it's a bad technique, but I completely understand where the scrutiny is coming from. It's an oddball maneuver, undoubtedly, especially when you've got casual mention that the sword is more "mace-like" rather than just an actual mace. I think this is a cool conversation though, and I'm happy we've got actual experts, and not a fool like me analyzing on the sidelines, who are willing to test these techniques out. There is still a lot of discussion to be had, and it is exciting.

[@chroma6947]

@@yewtewbstew547 The best way to defeat someone in full plate is to run away and get him tired out till hes on the ground panting. Not standing there with your stupid technique that someone added for filler for an overpriced book. Most medieval people carried a knife and survived just fine. They had common sense, you clearly dont.

[@vultureman3311]

I‘ve never heard of a sliding weight on a sword. That’s such an interesting idea. Does someone know where I can find an image of this replica, I’d love to see it.

[@ChrisH77]

I know it's not an actual Fez but Matt in that Hat instantly made me think: "Suddenly, as if by magic, The Swordkeeper appeared." Hmn, really dating myself with this one!

[@Anathmatician]

That segue into the sponsorship was truly extraordinary. I salute you.

[@PiratesDockingSix]

I remember a dude here on youtube, some years ago, demostrating this on hard targets multiple times. BUT i agree. You might be able to so it safely 1000 times but what when you fuck up? Even a small one can cost you both hands.

[@Izhkoort]

When I found about this I made an assumption to add to that answer: it's an armored opponent AND everything else failed. So, for me, is more about having another resource to play with in that situation, than actually using it as first option "If everything fails, grab it like a pickaxe and whack it unti it dies" "if that fails too, throw your pommel at it and flee too another country"

[@raikouzenkoujitsu3294]

Unless i'm mistaken, there was an old video of Skallagrim holding onto the blade of a sharp sword and bashed a tyre with it.

[@chemistrykrang8065]

It has been many years since I've done a murder stroke, and I only ever did it with blunt reenactment swords... but drawing parallels with my experience with other martial arts and traditions: - We might be seeing something illustrated in a context different to the way it'd be used. This might be for clarity, or because the illustrations are of a training scenario. So we might be seeing bare hands or the wrong type of edge/sword illustrated because the source material was two guys training with Feders rather than an actual application. Lots of okinawan and japanese Bo (stick) techniques are illustrated and shown with people in standard martial arts gi using a fairly plain 6 ft stick, but sometimes it's unsaid that the techniques are really intended for an oar, a naginata, or a shorter implement like a jo... and often for or against people in armour or weilding different weapons. We lose this a bit by depicting training rather than actual use. - Lots of martial arts involve training in or doing things that aren't necessarily the most practical technique, and if they look cool they get a lot of coverage. I'm currently working on a karate kata which involves lots of ippon nukite (one-finger strike) techniques - that isn't the most practical technique at all, and if somebody in the future were reading a karate book out of context they might think "wow, why were they going around poking people with one finger instead of doing other stuff?"... that technique does have its uses and is absolutely a valid part of the study and tradition of karate, but it's vanishingly unlikely that I would ever use it if called upon to defend myself... and it's by no means the only technique in that category. I feel like the murder stroke might be the same - cool looking and part of the overall system, but maybe illustrated more than it was used. - Maybe the murder strike is illustrated to make a (quasi-philosophical) point that all parts of the sword can be used offensively. This could end up being over represented in treatises if the idea was "look we use the point, the edge, we use leverage and grapple with the sword, and we can also use the pommel and quillons" and there wasn't an intention to convey the ratio in which these things happened or were useful. Similarly in karate I could show more than a dozen hand positions used for striking, but probably three or four account for 95% of actual utility... but that might not come across if you encountered a manual on all the different hand striking methods without that context.

[@Dead_Pool_Rising]

I'm pretty sure skall has already done a video where he gripped a sharp sword by the blade and performed half swording and murder strokes. It was a while back but I do seem to remember him doing it at one point.

[@jamesfrankiewicz5768]

I'm thinking translating "mord" in "Mordschlag" as "murder" might be making it sound even more impressive than it would have when those treatises were written. "Mord" should really be translated as "mortal", which also lets us consider some of the other connotations behind the word (not just "killing intent", even less so "unlawful killing").

[@jy3n2]

Maybe it's called the murder strike because if you use it, you're going to get murdered.

[@christschess7069]

Why would you translate Mord as mortal? It means murder in german and mort in french means dead. Mortal in german is "sterblich" or "tödlich".

[@jaxraxx3509]

Excellent points and while I do agree, we must look at it in context as you famously say. That being the chaos of combat. Perhaps it is for when your sword is knocked from your hands and it happens to be the quickest way to grab it up and deliver an immediate blow due to its orientation, thus preventing yourself from being struck.

[@wafflem8]

Finally some sense put into this technique.

[@jonathanpouliot-konopka7810]

hm, some years ago i once did that into the top of a stump, wanting to see how hard I could strike and so prove my medieval awsomeness. although I gripped the Hanwei longsword as tightly as I could, right after impact the sword sort of jerked out my hands, leaving behind a painful cut I think across my left palm (or maybe my right palm, dont remember). for several seconds i wasnt able to grip anything from the pain XD all i achieved was bending my hilt a bit. on the bright side, nobody was around when i made a complete fool of myself! I'm guessing that, if this technique was used in armored fighting, you werent meant to swing full force, maybe just enough to daze your foe to then finish him off with a thrust through the gaps of armour or visor, but thats just speculation, i sure dont have an answer.

[@nirfz]

Maybe it's a misinterpretation on my side (i only have taken a brief look at the Talhoffer pctures and text), but to me it looks mostly like something to distract than to actually do any damage. A bit like throwing your sword towards your opponents face or in the air to make the opponent look at the unexpected turn of events, while closing in for grappeling/tackeling/throwing your opponent. A bit like "when nothing else works, do something unexpected like this."

[@samueldimmock694]

If the only way for you to survive is by getting lucky, here's a way to make that more likely--and at no cost to yourself, because failing won't get you any more dead than doing nothing.

[@GallowglassAxe]

I like this form of criticism in a technique. It is understood that it is historical and shown in various treaties but personally not for Matt for x number of reasons. Actually what got me subscribed to Skallagrim was his murder stroke test where he uses a sharp blade on a tire.

[@itinerantpoet1341]

I know a few dudes who could probably puncture that tire, but it still doesn't make this technique smart or optimal. (imho, using it would indicate the wielder is a weaker fencer and has to resort to novelty.) In Knight Fight this never came up, even the one time longsword was attempted in the melee, because the top fighters there were simply getting inside, punching with the gauntlet, and using hip throws. So it seems to me that a competent modern medieval European stylists is going to win every time against someone attempting this murder strike, b/c the chances of killing with the first hit are miniscule, and that's the only chance they're going to get before body-to-body contact.

[@GallowglassAxe]

@@itinerantpoet1341 I agree its probably not design to be a static position you hold like in half-swording but more a sudden shift and surprise attack. Pursuing the Knightly Arts does a video where they practice some techniques shown in one manual (I forget which one) and it was more them transitioning to that position just before the attack. In one maneuver they used the murderstroke to set up for a grapple. Here is the video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIXZmIKcma50l5o I think the novelty is what gives it its greatest advantage. Not everyone was reading treatises at the time nor were they in every treatises. So you many may not expect someone to grab a blade and swing it around like a mace to your head and joints. But I'm no expert in the subject and I don't fight in plate.

[@Subutai_Khan]

@@itinerantpoet1341 I think Gallowglass is exactly right from the sources we have. The goal does not seem to be killing your opponent in one strike. Even poleaxes often will not achieve that goal against an actively defending opponent. (though the risk of being knocked out or killed by a clunk to the head with a poleaxe is high enough that you do not want to eat a strike from one of those things regardless of the helmet you are wearing. its just that a helmet can still save your life under those circumstances and no one who is trained and not already concussed will let you do that ) The goal is just to give your opponent a good thwack on the head. You do not then stop there and call it quits. You follow it up with a grapple or a stab from half-swording which is a surprisingly quick transition if you train it enough. Check out the channel pursueing the knightly arts for videos on these sorts of techniques. A murderstroke can also be targeted at the back of the knee where there is only maille protecting you and a blunt impact there can collapse the leg if its delivered properly.

[@mekosmowski]

Your what if scenario really cemented an idea for me. All of your training would have been holding the sword conventionally. Gripping by the blade is an entirely different weapon in terms of muscle memory.

[@Kriegter]

The sword with the blunt edges and spiked crossguard seems like a fun idea.

[@adambielen8996]

If all you can bring is a sword then just bring a mace...

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

@@adambielen8996 It might be for a judicial duel or a tournament where you would prefer a mace but the rules explicitly require a sword. You bring your 'totally a sword guys it's fine'

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

That probably the main context where historical warriors used the murder strike.

[@WritingFighter]

I always thought, "Why not just do a pommel or guard strike half-swording?" My favorite thing to do armored opponent or no.

[@chrisfields8077]

I was going to add, someone may have already said it, but the blades shown where this is used is typically stiff type XVs, or XVIIs. But agree with the additions for the wow factor. I also think of the "unscrewing the pommel and throwing it"... Lol... I have yet find a historical example of a 15th or 16th sword where this could have been done, but I'm sure someone tried it.

[@Is523APrimeNumber]

I think you'll look for a long time, as screwed pommels - as far as I know - were invented way later than Renaissance.

[@testovaci001email8]

@@Is523APrimeNumber They existed, not common, but also not so rare....

[@Rubberweasel]

My immediate thought when seeing the illustrations is that the edge of the sword has been horribly dulled and now your fighting from a point of desperation.

[@vitriolicAmaranth]

What could you possibly dislike about an incredibly niche technique that becomes a viral meme sensation to the point that a bunch of people act like ACTUALLY it was the default way of wielding a sword?

[@smockytubers1188]

Imagine what future historians will think late 20th century combat looked like when they find the last surviving archaelogical copy of Final Fantasy 7. "No clearly, there's evidence right here, hard evidence that has been dated down to the specific year 1997, that ginormous swords longer than the height of the wielder and estimated to weigh ~2.5 metric tons were wielded with ease during that time period." That's what youtube sword weebs did with this BS when they found some cartoon pictures from Europe showing someone swinging a sword upside down.

[@s_crylly7751]

Ive always thought the risk of personal injury was not worth the benefit for the CHANCE that the stroke could disable someone in armor. Im glad someone is bringing it up. Can you imagine if youre in a fight, your hands are covered in sweat, blood, or mud, or a combination of the three, the blade is oily, then the opponent intercepts your swing or it hits their armor and the blade rotates or slips in your hand and lays your hands open; you were better off never having done it in the first place at that point.

[@graveyard1979]

I can see this being a frequent option with an estoc. I can't see an estoc being a common choice for everyday carry. I think large parts of the Talhoffer are equivalent of modern day trick shooting or trick archery. Showmanship. I can't imagine this ending well with a sharp blade if the opponent manages to strike at the crossguard or the pommel... Or if he manages to grab the hilt and pull.

[@texasbeast239]

I've had the same suspicion that a good percentage or ratio of the demo'd moves were trick moves and not particularly representative of common or effective combat moves. And once one master was praised for including trick moves, other masters could be incentivized to add some of their own. This undermines the elevation of training according to written treatises over experimental archaeology.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

We don't know that the blades were sharp in the section from Talhoffer that show armored techniques. For whatever reason, his works show armored techniques with unarmored figures sometimes.

[@texasbeast239]

@aaa One...BILLION...dollars!

[@facilegoose9347]

0:16 _Right passed guard to tip Left's visor up, who is now on the backfoot to avoid follow up from the crossguard spike._ In all of these drawings, I'm suspect of lumberjack telgraphed strike equivalent of a haymaker in boxing. 0:17 _fading strike after creating distance, disengaging from bind?_ The form with Right piercing Left's forearm is _levered at the right thigh._ 0:49 _Is Right preparing to chop straight down, or from his 3 oclock (while passing on the outside? fading back?)_ Have both combatants mutually tipped up their visors (rather than them being up from the outset?) Is the object to bludgeon, or hook to pass guard entirely/trip? Rear of thighs and buttocks appear exposed from behind for the figure on the Right. 2:15 2:29 _The figure on the right_ -- this position, _with the blade (flush?) against the outer right thigh: _*_is this a bind lever_*_ rather than a strike? He appears _closer_ than the figure on the left; this would restrict the clockwise motion to pass Right Figure's guard on the outside. My curiosity then goes to _what are the follow up intentions, positionally and striking wise?_ Tipping up the visor with the pommel spike for the guard spike for instance, or is hooking behind the neck & tripping preferred to bludgeoning (for dagger finish)? If the visor is fixed in the upwards position, is such an upwards short distance hit at risk of jerking the more armored Left figure's head/neck back, or unfastening the visor from its position? 4:45 13:20 _Is this an overhead chop, or is the aim to ..._ pull toward Left figure's left hand, interrupting their grip on the blade? To step in, having taken the center line to offend with the point to the face/neck as a follow up? HEMA bemoans Hollywood plate armor and shield piercing/hacking, but are we doing the same here with the 'murder strike'? What are the risks once in this position to both, the intention once there, do they bind (do they circle, push pull, go lateral) or reset? 9:56 _How is Right behind Left?_ Did he perform some _toreador_ side slip/feint? Did he deliver this center, passing

[@MagistraCatherine]

as a KdF practicioner: I also hate the mordschlag, and my hot spicy take is that I think it's unfairly become the 'face' of HEMA. It's not even the coolest harnischfechten technique, like come ON!

[@Gundalf_the_Gray]

So… what IS the coolest harnischfechten technique? 😁

[@Hirosjimma]

@@Gundalf_the_Gray poking someone in the eye socket with a well placed rondel dagger?

[@Gundalf_the_Gray]

@@Hirosjimma that’s definitely one of the top three. 😁

[@MagistraCatherine]

​@aaa You know, I don't disagree with anything you said. If we look at it from a 'cold perception' like you suggest, then yes, you are completely correct. My opinion outlined in the first comment was made from my own limited experiences because I'm just a single human and not a hivemind. It is highly irrational and stupid to hate a technique, you're correct! If it works, it works, if it doesn't it doesn't, if there's an opportunity to use something, you use it, blah de blah. But please do note that I said 'spicy hot take', which is the way us zoomers say that we know that what we're about to say is completely irrational and deliberately strongly worded and exaggerated.

[@neruneri]

One thing that stuck out to me when thinking honestly about it is that it would require quite a bit of training to numb your own psychological aversion to even attempting something like the mordhau. I can tell you for a fact that even if I know that having my hands slightly cut is better than dying, I can't actually overcome the psychological aversion to it here and now. Especially because there are so many other things I'd rather do where I don't have those aversions to fight.

[@Autobong5000]

Nice hat

[@brittakriep2938]

Such caps had been really worn by wealthy men in late 15th century.

[@ULTRAINFINITEJUSTICE]

i think it's more of a desperation move then anything else. even if there are anti armour sword examples surviving if it was something done widespread there would be more surviving examples. any example of gloveless use would be for training purposes. they went out to practice on a tuesday or whatever and the dude drew them as they were.

[@takingbacktoxic7898]

The murder stroke is just like any other technique. It gives you one more option. One that maybe your opponent hasn't seen before or isn't familiar with. It also takes considerably less skill to use the murder stroke, than it does to wrestle, or half-sword your way into an opponent who is in armor. I dont think it was something people "wanted" to use with any force anymore than they want to face an armored opponent with the intent to kill them.

[@jochentram9301]

Speaking of gloves (and that includes gloves worn inside gauntlets), my preference is for relatively thick material on the back of the hand, often with padding, but relatively thin material on the palm. The purpose of the glove is a sweat-free, secure grip; the downside is that it becomes harder to properly "feel" the weapon. Using thin leather for the palm side mitigates that. YMMV, and yes, that requires custom gloves. I am not aware of any manufacturer that makes such gloves.

[@roffels11-gamingandhistory69]

Thank you so much for confirming my own re-enactment and sparring experiences with your excellent equipment, Matt! In my group we sometimes experiment with Mordhau and halfswording using leather gloves (and wearing steel armor) and blunt re-enactment swords (made of steel) only to drop it each time after a few moves exactly for the reasons you explained. Hitting something, even if done slowly and catiously, is dangerous for your wrists and hands due to the vibrations and loss of control over your own weapon in the moment of impact. On the other hand these experiments confirmed the efficiency of these techniques in a "life and death" scenario, in which your own and your opponent's health does not matter anymore. The dents in our armor speak for themselves.

[@joelsmith9311]

There is a scene in the 1973 Three Musketeers movie where (from memory) either Porthos or Athos (my memory is hazy, but I think it was Athos played by Oliver Reed) attempts a bit of a “murder strike” in desperation during a fight with the Cardinals men. He delivers a huge, desperate blow holding the blade of a rapier in gloved hands - and the sword slips straight out of his grasp, is knocked aside and he is left defenseless. Which is exactly how I think it would go down in real life if you tried it. Great movie.

[@F_Karnstein]

In the Taekwondo book by Choi Hong-hi you see finger stabbing techniques and they often do have a "wow" factor when showed off in tul/hyong (kata). I have not used them to hit an opponent, I have not used them to break a board, I have not taught anyone to do so and I strongly advise everybody never to try. Just sayin'...

[@grindsaur]

I’ve always thought of it as an option of last resort. Considering how awkward it is to transition into you would be telegraphing your intentions very loudly, unless you were just picking up the sword… Never mind the hand shock of hitting something, imagine what missing would do to the palms of your hands 👀

[@ThatDjinn]

This video is really good. I've seen some people demonstrate this technique with a sharp sword against a hard target and honestly I was severely underwhelmed with the amount of force they were producing. I've never seen anyone who would swing a sharpened longsword like this and achieve an effect that would be in any way comparable with a mace. I feel you would really need to put your hands at a serious risk if you wanted to make a good impact.

[@Intranetusa]

There is a KZbin video of a murderstroke done against someone in full plate armor + plate helmet, and the guy in plate armor suffered what seems to be a concussion (nausea, had to lie down, etc) after getting hit once on the head. Edit: The KZbin video is called "Half Swording" and the murderstroke happens at 3:10.

[@ThatDjinn]

@@Intranetusa Thanks! Will check it out.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

@@Intranetusa It probably wasn't with a sharp sword that John Clements used & it's a based on a misinterpretation of Talhoffer. Talhoffer's 1459 manuscription has an arranged armor duel where one of the fighters suddenly appears without armor. However, armored techniques continue even as both duelists become unarmored & the text makes it clear that it's still describing the same armored duel. I suspect the artist just got tired of rendering armor. So it's quite possible the seeming images from Talhoffer of performing a murder strike with bare hands are actually in the context of armored duels with gauntlets & swords only sharpened near the tip.

[@WinnipegKnightlyArts]

It tends to be most relevant when you end up in a grappling situation especially when the opponent grabs your blade or you're otherwise not able to strike easily with a standard grip. I don't like it as a Vorschlag (opening technique) but there are some weird cases where it can be useful. I'd categorize it more as an 'emergency technique' I have a theory that the reason for it isn't so much that it's just done purely as an anti armored technique, it's just that it's more likely that you end up in one of the grappling scenarios where it is relevant if the opponent is heavily armored since the armor lets them close in and try to grab you or your blade more easily. You see a lot of this kind of thing in Leckuchner's messer treatise, specifically the transition to the blade grip, Mordschlag to counter certain disarms.

[@Arkantos117]

Just hitting a tree hard with a stick hurts your hand enough, I'd rather not do something like that with a sword.

[@xSpiegelschattenx]

That's the beauty of flails, goodbye hand shock ! :D

[@yewtewbstew547]

Yeah but we're talking about something you may or may not do in a life or death situation lol. In the grand scheme of things, having sore hands and wrists doesn't really matter unless it becomes immediately debilitating. Blocking an incoming blow with a sword or even a shield can hurt your hands and arms, but you'd still do that.

[@shorewall]

@@yewtewbstew547 Yeah, blocking a blade keeps you from being cut. Using this murder strike guarantees you'll get cut, and also makes it harder to parry or block.

[@airnt]

if you use a pollaxe, with a buttspike, the control of the point during a strike has the exact same issue as the point of a swordblade used in mortschlag, which is really easily avoided. Second point is that mortschlag is seen in distinctly unaarmoured work, including sword and buckler in the Lignizer plays. the hooking opportunities can be really usefull apart from the impressively committed blow itself. and it can surprize. i suppose it might be a habitual thing if you are used to pollaxe, like in fiore or the 'Freyen schlag' in Talhoffer, that you simply flow into.

[@RonOhio]

I also have to wonder if the expression "Murder Strike" has an implication that the target is helpless, ie on the ground, hence, murder rather than combat.

[@midshipman8654]

even when you could use it, i think its unweildyness would be inoptimal. Maybe it was more of a “display of arms” like some other stuff like duel rapiers or fighting with sheilds. id say if you needed blunt force, just use the regular grip and hit with the pommel or guard after closing in, like some brass knuckles, would be more practical most of the time. so you dont have to fiddle with changing your grip or the other things matt mentioned. but yes it does look good.

[@testovaci001email8]

Using pommel in standard halbschwert is quite common in harnisch...

[@DGFTardin]

Skallagrim has done it in the past. I'm sure many will point that out. That doesn't invalidate your points, but I guess it isn't as stupid as you belive it to be, if it can be done by someone from the 21st century, and appears time and time again in medieval treatisies.

[@wirelessg18]

Yep, although he said in a video from last year he wouldn't suggest doing it without protection now. I think for Matt it's more about the risks from fighting an opponent ( not striking a target) AND that there are other viable moves with less risk.

[@shorewall]

Just because someone can do it doesn't mean it's not stupid. It's still stupid. Stupid things work sometimes, but they are still stupid. With this, you are holding the blade with your hands, pointing the point at yourself, and the handle towards your enemy. It's stupid. People don't half-sword, but they'll defend the Murder Stroke.

[@romanlegionhare2262]

An armored opponent comes for me and I am just walking around, I am taking option A, running away. I would think the murder strike would be a situation dependent move, Peter does one against Miraz after disarming him in Prince Caspian. But in the flow of battle, it made sense in that one situation, and he was wearing mail gauntlets anyway.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Curiously, some historical people were proud enough that they wouldn't run away in that situation - or at least so they claimed. See Sir Kenelm Digby's account of being attacked by fifteen Spaniards in mail armed with lantern shields & swords while Digby was unarmored & had only a sword. He wrote that he resolved to die rather than seem cowardly but ended up fighting his way out.

[@romanlegionhare2262]

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 yes, there is the honor aspect...or should I say, honour.

[@_XR40_]

Wouldn't hurt to keep in mind that medieval "martial arts" were probably much like modern ones in practice. In other words, much of the instruction would be _theoretical_ rather than practical. Things that the sword-master considered _might_ be useful rather than things that had been _proven_ useful. You know, things like unscrewing the pommel so that you could throw it? EDIT: Also should consider that there were about the same proportion of fakes then as there are phony Kung-fu masters now. "Historical" doesn't necessarily mean honest or accurate...

[@euansmith3699]

Matt's outfit for this video is great; especially the Medieval DEVO Energy Dome.

[@rolandropnack4370]

Maybe we literally didn't get the joke? Maybe it's called "murderstroke" because it's extremely stupid to be armed with a sword only to hand it over, conveniently presenting your opponent the handle and pointing it towards your soft bits so he just needs to grab and stab in one fluid motion to murder you with your own blade? Medieval people had a strange sense of humour after all. I can imagine how the reader of such treatise looks at the illustration only to burst out in loud laughter, wiping his tears of joy away and still giggling "Good one, Herr Thalhofer, that was a really good one!"

[@yowza234]

I don't think the mordschlag in particular was included for "wow" factor Probably more so as "if you're in a bad pickle - this too is an option"

[@koticneutralftw7016]

Anecdotal story related to sharp blades and bare hands. I knew a guy that was trying to use a pocket knife ice pick grip and didn't have a cross guard or his thumb on the back end to keep it from slipping. His hand was fine after a trip to the ER, surgery to reconstruct the tendons in his fingers, and about three months in a half cast.

[@yewtewbstew547]

In the terms of the logistics of it I think Skallagrim already proved that the "murder stroke" is viable with bare hands and a sharp sword in this video; kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKjYgoOcq7iGotE As far the question of "why would you even want to do it?" goes though, I agree that you probably never would want to do it. However if you were in a situation where you came under attack by a heavily armoured opponent, and all you had was a sword, I don't see it as being a bad option. Fencing techniques in particular are not going to do much for you there because your opponent has very little reason to even respect your spacing in the first place. Even more so if you're unarmoured. You need to hit a gap in his armour, assuming there even are any within reach, whereas he only needs land a clean hit on you anywhere and you're finished.

[@shorewall]

I would rather half sword, rush in on the guy and try to wrestle him to the ground. Rather than slice my hands up while I'm fumbling around with a sharp blade, and then he pushes my point into my gut.

[@midshipman8654]

viable doesnt me practical though. personally i think I would prefer the defensive agility of a normal sword grip over murder stroke. If anything, id think the unwieldiness of the grip would be a detriment.

[@АннаЛиберт-ь1й]

@@shorewall Well, you would probably do that. But what about people like me, who are small, weak and light? Any grappling is an autolose, especially against armoured (i.e. heavy) opponent.

[@Subutai_Khan]

@@shorewall The thing you are missing is you follow up the murderstroke. You don't strike someone once and go "HAHA I WIN!" and just stand there. You close in after giving your opponent a good swing or you transition to the half-sword which is a surprisingly quick transition. You also probably do not want to hold a murderstroke position for an extended period of time so you have to time it properly. Murder strokes are not meant to take out an armoured opponent instantly. They are meant to briefly stun or surprise your opponent but you must then follow it up with something else. A stab to the groin from the side with proper foot work or a grapple etc etc. Check out the channel pursuing the knightly arts for techniques like this which are from the sources.

[@Pystro]

To do the demonstration: Get kevlar or mail gloves (something cut-proof), stick your sword sideways through a piece of raw steak, grab the blade by the meat, and try to hit something with a murder strike without cutting further through the meat. In order to keep the blade from sliding out, you may need to tape or glue the meat to the blade. If you leave only like half a centimeter of meat and the sword doesn't go all the way through that I'd call that a hand that could have survived without tendon damage.

[@knate44]

Matt: “What kind of crazy person would do that?” Skall “hold my mead”

[@keggerous]

I've always just accepted it as a technique because it was shown in the artwork of the time and I believe even written about. That being said, I have always thought it was stupid. I feel like it may have more heft striking that way but you would still be able to give a pretty similar strike while wielding it normally. Grabbing and hitting with the sword normally would be far more secure. Grabbing the end of the blade would be strange because I don't see you being able to grab the blade down far enough to actually leverage that extra heft.

[@RonJohn63]

19:03 And even with modern, specially cushioned helmets their bell gets seriously rung. Vision goes blurry, can't think straight, etc. You can imagine how bad it would be to get bashed when wearing a poorly padded metal helmet. 19:28 Not magic, but can easily daze the opponent, which which gives you time to bash him again, and again and again. Then run away.

[@Kit-vb5rm]

Matt. You are always wonderfully enthusiastic in presenting your videos but this was one of the most entertaining and enlightening. Thank you..

[@soupordave]

I wonder how much the murder stroke was invented by knights that didn't want to give up their longswords in favor of the poleaxe and a rondel dagger. "Those aren't knightly weapons! What's wrong with the family sword and a good stout shield? It'll do everything I need! See I can whack you in the head with the cross guard!" Meanwhile his grandson is like "geeze grandpa stop embarrassing me in front of the other squires!"

[@christopherrowley7506]

The poleaxe was considered a knightly weapon though

[@fiddlesticks7245]

Really silly idea bro

[@somerotter]

It might well just be that it is a surprise angle to come from - if you are half swording already and rapidly shift your handle hand from the bottom to the upper third and whip the handle over onto their head, it might be something they didn’t expect or were not ready for. I used to fight with sticks as a kid and I would rapidly “jump” my lower hand from the sticks bottom to the top and whip the bottom end of the stick over onto the head of whoever I was fighting, and it was usually a nasty shock to whoever I was up against.

[@JanetStarChild]

I'm surprised Skallagrim hasn't commented yet, since he often overrates this insane maneuver. ...And I say this as a fan and subscriber of both channels.

[@fiddlesticks7245]

"Insane"

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

I kinda am surprised when you talk the sheer risk of it all when a couple years you showed a off a bind techinque where you flipping disarm yourself of your longsword, flipping grab your oppenents longsword try to wretch it out of his hands without any reservations at all, like that isn't risky ride or die as all hell.

[@raditicat]

I do mortschlag with a sharp longsword and I only cut myself once (a small cut), I usually strike hard into an old bascinet. Its not the best way to fight armor for a lot of things, but not for own safety. (sorry for my bad english)

[@TheZombieCurryKid]

Which weapon should I use in Elden Ring?

[@TheFlyguywill]

My first question upon opening this video is why the hell is Matt wearing a fez and what does it have to do with a murder strike? Lol

[@sirretsnom3329]

I think one thing you might have missed with this strike and a flexible sword is because of the flexing, not only is the pommel speed increased because it is whipped, BUT it allows the blow to flex over and past a block. So imagine an overhead strike being blocked close to the head, the flexing sword would still allow it to hit the head. This was demonstrated against an armored opponent in a video last year (I cannot remember who produced it) where the non armored fighter did exactly that and the pommel flexed over the block and impacted the helm and his bell was rung to the point of nauseum for the armored defender. I will see if I can track down that video.

[@shorewall]

Sounds like something that you can't count on.

[@sirretsnom3329]

@@shorewall This is one video showing the whipping action of the pommel and hitting the helm. This is not the one I saw last year as I am still looking for it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJqaZmpjbL13b5Y

[@mikep8071]

I mean no disrespect, I typically enjoy this channel's content a great deal, but I don't understand the slant of this particular video. The arc of the video basically ran: "We know the strike existed, we know that it was commonly used, in fact it's in all of the surviving traditions, 'and' we have archeological examples of swords made with this strike in mind," BUT "Here is why I think it makes no sense." If we know the strike existed, and we know it was exceptionally common, rather than going on for ten minutes about why it makes no sense, or why you think it was dangerous, why not instead try to nail down how and why it was used? The video, as presented, has no academic or explorative value for the subject at hand. Again, I'm not trying to be rude or say I know better than scholagladiatoria (I don't), I just find this to be a very odd approach to the discussion.

[@kholui]

Saying why you personally hate a sword technique (even if it was historically used) is a perfectly legitimate subject for a fencing instructor. Spinning kicks are common in marital arts, but I know many self defense instructors who would tell you why they hate them and would advise you against using them in an attack situation.

[@mikep8071]

@@kholui And those are all fair points, but that's not really the rub of the video. For example, he talks about why this strike would injure you (in several different ways), and why using this strike would do nothing against a helmeted opponent, among other such points. He's essentially saying why it wouldn't work, when very clearly 'everything' he's saying runs contrary to the historical record. It's a bit like LindyBeige's satire video "Why cavalry is a terrible idea." Yeah, cavalry 'would' be a terrible idea for all of the reason's Lindy lays out...except that we know cavalry was a thing, and a very effective thing. link to vid: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z6a4nGiNfKasmqs See what I'm trying to say?

[@joshuanorthey2026]

“Common” seems like a huge stretch.

[@mikep8071]

@@joshuanorthey2026 I mean, schola called it "common" in the video, he literally said "It was so common, some swords were fashioned with this strike in mind" and "It's in 'all' of our surviving manuals." So, yeah, that qualifies as "common."

[@joshuanorthey2026]

@@mikep8071 Beyond unconvinced.

[@Sb_747]

So i think part of the answer of the murder stroke is that it’s not something you just go from a normal grip to grabbing the blade with both hands. It’s a move you can transition to from halfswording depending on context. And you’re mainly going to halfswording when fighting against armor.

[@andreasfell3471]

@scholagladiatoria Interesting video as allways.🙂 Have you seen this old video from Skallagrim? He actualy tests it with sharp sword and real target. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKjYgoOcq7iGotE

[@DygoKnight]

I've always thought the murder strike to be very cool, but your points make a lot of sense. Also, your selection of alternative moves all sounded better than the murder strike as well. Nice vid!