Were these two friends lost or killed in the jungles of Panama?

[@surfergirl2943]

I’ve heard this case covered by so many channels, so I usually skip it ! But you do such an exceptional job of including things that I’ve literally never heard before and this did not disappoint! This is one of the best channels for TC.

[@sandpiperhermitage]

I agree

[@texastea5686]

I'm 20 min in, I feel the same. Not a fan of this story because sometimes people do stupid things that get them into unfortunate situations....

[@filmsta5sixtoosie]

Whats TC?

[@surfergirl2943]

@@filmsta5sixtoosie True crime 😊

[@Vinsonah_luvsShandie1989]

True the Maura Murray case I had heard so much about and when I heard it here thier are so many things he knew that No one else knows

[@thetwelfth9987]

Imagine being the parents hugging your daughters at the airport, waving them goodbye as they leave, observing them in their full frame and then meeting them again for the first time months later as just a foot and a pelvis. You’d never be able to look at mortality the same way ever again, it’s too raw, at least for me.

[@AnnaLee33]

you're a very empathic soul.

[@DartmoorAR]

The lesser known cases make a good listen, especially if they are active/cold, but covering the more famous ones like this is always appreciated as well.

[@Boo-dawg.]

I've heard this case too many times. Seeing it once is plenty enough .

[@DartmoorAR]

@@Boo-dawg. Fair enough.

[@pr0cessa]

Yeah I kinda feel this one's been covered to death! to the point where it's just like perpetuating a bunch of pretty absurd conspiracy theories. Not that it's not an interesting story with cautionary tale, but I never understood the intrigue here because it seems pretty straightforward what happened, not foul play just tragic misjudgment on the part of the girls.

[@ninedaysjane2466]

@@pr0cessa Totally agree. It's blindingly obvious what happened. I can't even count the number of accounts just like this I've read on Outside Online and other places. It's not mysterious. It's just sad.

[@AmonAnon-vw3hr]

@ninedaysjane2466 not really, it wouldn't be the first time a pair of European women have had something heinous happen to them overseas only for it to be covered up.

[@theerapats]

Found this channel a couple of months ago and have been listening to each episode every single night. Good work!

[@aliciamarcel3620]

Me too. New to this channel. I AM HOOKED.

[@alexvoicetravels]

Same here. I'm now all away to the 3 yo episodes.

[@chickengirlBelle]

and you can sleep!

[@theerapats]

@@alexvoicetravels I went all way to the 5 yo ones. 😅

[@texastea5686]

I think I started listening to these about 4 months ago or so, and I am also hooked.One thing I will say is that I'm glad I am paying for premium because I've seen another comments that it has too many ads, But even if I did not have premium, I would still listen to this podcast.It's incredible and very well done

[@natalieh4354]

I'm so glad you're covering this eerie horrifying case with your class and ethical reporting. Thankyou. God bless those two lost souls ❤

[@NemFX]

They fell. Two separate accidents. The pictures of the sky? They all overlap. One of the girls fell off of a blind cliff. If you look at the pictures, all put together, there's a wall of earth behind her, another one in front of her. The pictures are looking up at the sky from the ground, you see the underside of leaves and plants. The pictures are a signal to the other girl. Basically a "I'm here, look for the camera flash" The pictures of her head are them looking for damage. She was likely concussed. Probably broke her leg, other injuries, I'd guess the fall was at least twenty feet. So now, you have one girl being helped by the other. They are lost. They already were, but it's night in the jungle. They are VERY lost. Okay, so they don''t panic. Their restraint is admirable. They make a very clear plan for when to use their phones. They stick to it until just before the end. I speculate that they got desperate at the end. The second accident, they were trying to cross a bridge. One of the 'monkey bridges' Why would they do that? Because it's something HUMAN in a forest. Clearly, if human's made this, and they are on the side of the bridge with only forest, then the other side must have more humans. It makes sense. But, those bridges can be difficult to use under ideal circumstances. These aren't ideal circumstances. They fell. Died in the river, or from a fall in it. Their parts were scattered by the water, possibly animal predation too. It sucks. It really does. They were both gorgeous, and clearly intelligent. But I just don't see human intervention in this one. I see two people who just made a wrong decision while in nature, then got some terrible luck. They kept their heads, and got remarkably close to civilization again. The people in the government/police who didn't wanna help should have been held more responsible, and their tour guide was incriminating himself but i think his heart was in the right place. Ultimately, those are just people saying "It's not my problem" and "well if you wont do something, i will" I know it's nature, but a couple of firewatch towers would have probably helped to have in the area. a three story tower, painted neon orange here and there, would make for useful landmarks.

[@wmelliott3802]

What about the taxi driver please explain? Also the shoddy police work? I'd love to accept your theory as it's the least painful for the two families. You may be right but I'm not so sure.

[@BDBee81]

Well said, anything's possible. As for the "couple of fire towers nearby" I agree should be compulsory Great idea . Protects mother nature as well as the average hiker. >8-D

[@BDBee81]

May they rest in peace

[@Aryasvitkona]

Given the fact that a fall that only hurt one of them seems to have killed another, I'm wondering if the picture of the head was after the other died. I mean think about it, it seems to be taken from behind with the head taking up most of the frame, that's basically how you'd have to try and look at the back of your head if you were concerned you'd messed yourself up badly. My theory is the phone calls were due to the time of day. They realised even in the best cases that the sun would either be setting or have set before they could make it home, though the possibility exists they were either lost or slipped and injured. In fact I believe it's likely they weren't completely boned at that point. I think Lisanne slipped and fractured her foot as the metatarsal bones suggest. It would have been hellish, but this may explain their 112 attempts. They didn't keep trying as they had no signal and weren't stupid. I suspect they couldn't figure out the way back in the morning because things looked different, and this is where they screwed themselves. I suspect if they stayed there they'd have been found, although potentially after they passed. I think they picked a direction and went walking as best they could. I think Lisanne eventually gave up and sat down somewhere after about a week. This is where the night photos begin. I believe the pain in her foot from the healing fractures and the stressed tissue had her sit her ass down and stay there. Kris was trying to turn back for her but couldn't see her, so they used flashes to signal where to go. I think this is where things get grimmer. I think Lisanne may have died that night, or otherwise instructed Claire to continue on and find help and/or reception. And I believe Claire slipped at some point and slammed her head, and thus the photo of the back of her head to check she hadn't absolutely destroyed herself. I suspect it's shortly after due to fatigue, exhaustion, dehydration and starvation she forgot the code to Lisannes phone, luckily you don't need it for an emergency call. I think shortly after this is when she either fell to her death, or otherwise succumbed to the elements or her situation. I think Lisannes body parts were scattered by animals and water, especially if she was near the river. I think Claire's fall absolutely concussed her, and she may have passed in her sleep that night as a result of it (seriously if you bang your head hard enough DO NOT HAVE A NAP especially in the first 4-8 hours). This is why the damage to her pelvis was recent. Much more terrifyingly, it is possible Lisanne stayed behind in that watery area mentioned by the Dutch investigators while Claire continued alone. That would mean the night photos were her both trying to see how far she fell, hope for help, or otherwise get her bearing while having a concussion and a severely messed up leg or both legs. I think if that one is true, it's unlikely she was ever able to move far on her own power. The absolutely most horrific one is that potentially a search party was nearby during the night photos, but the girls or girl had barely any voice due to screaming either from pain or for help, so was trying to signal with light. This is the worst possible one because it would mean she was within probably earshot of people and didn't get seen even after passing.

[@barbaraellison1095]

Why wouldn’t one or both at least type a note on their phones explaining what their situation was in case of inevitable death.

[@wildflower0901]

It's so sad hearing they both wrote about how they didn't feel good about their decision to go to the mountain village town they would inevitably lose their life in. You should always trust your instincts 💔

[@annabelladebonnay8320]

Too True....!!!!!

[@frisk151]

Two young people from another country alone in Panama (etc) is just a bad idea, especially when you aren't seriously experienced travelers... Not everyone in this world (obviously) are good... RIP...

[@texastea5686]

I agree!!! No wonder their parents were worried. And with no tour group or guide. .

[@yeetnama9094]

​@@texastea5686 Young pretty vulnerable white women are not even safe nowadays to venture out on fun vacations IN OUR OWN WESTERN COUNTRIES, let alone are they safe to travel with no supervision and no protection to 3rd world countries. We MUST start protecting our kids and discourage such foolish ideas such as committing themselves to performing charitable works amongst violence, savagery, theft, crime, chaos. They don't appreciate it anyway

[@no_peace]

They got lost and hurt

[@Sunnydawgon]

@@no_peacesure they did. Worst animal to encounter alone any where in the world is a man ……

[@mischamar]

@@no_peaceah, get lost!

[@ChicaG-vg7pj]

I didn't realize there had been so much updated information on this case. TY for covering this, with reporting from all sides. Having lived on 4 continents, and travelled 6, I know I've made plenty of misinformed decisions, and been very lucky many times. We all have luck or misfortune in our lives, even when living mundane lives.

[@Catherinzsl]

People always talk about the girls as if they were in their right minds, thinking clearly and rationally. It's possible that if one or both of them fell from a height, they could have had head injuries and been in and out of consciousness. This may explain some of the odd timing and behaviours. I'm not saying it's the most likely explanation, but we need to consider they weren't rational actors. A solo hiker in New Zealand described being lost and injured, and it didn't occur to him, in his muddled thinking, to activate his emergency locator beacon until it was nearly too late. Anyway - fantastic, detailed summary of this case. Great work - thank you.

[@ninedaysjane2466]

You are absolutely right and in fact, this is the most likely explanation. People underestimate the effects of dehydration and starvation. The body slows down. Hallucinations can occur. Eventually, they would no longer have been able to move. It doesn't sound like Dutch investigators even factored this into their determination that the women got lost.

[@DinoCism]

There is so much "well if this happened, then why didn't they do this" which is just inference. People do this all the time when people go missing in North American national parks and the result is you get people saying "well, clearly this has to be aliens or bigfoot." You can't possibly account for all the random little things that can go wrong and all the things going through someone's mind when they are in a situation like this. The idea that "no one could possibly get lost in this area..." Yeah, I've heard that before about people who have went missing in North America in areas that were right near civilization. All the things you think, "well that could never happen, no one would do that." I guarantee you at some point it's happened and someone has done that.

[@ninedaysjane2466]

@@DinoCism Well said.

[@gracee.4657]

​@DinoCism true, I cannot think of one specific example but I'm sure someone has died within a few miles or even a few hundred yards from a well traversed road when they were lost. And so many people describe almost dying but doing something that caused them to avoid certain death, like those stories of people from the twin towers leaving hours or even minutes before the towers were struck. I'm sure there is the opposite that we will never know, when someone makes some slight change in their movements of the day and pass away from some other event or person

[@kelly2fly]

@@gracee.4657an example of that was this one older lady who got lost in one of the national forests. When recusers found her she was no more than 1000 feet from the trail.

[@JohnathanMackenzie-h8z]

The comment by nemfx is probably the closest to the truth I've read. Ive got lost in the bush mountains of s.a. the worst mistake is to go off trail or to carry on walking when exhausted . Best to just stay still and be rescued...however they never found me having said that ...i eventually staggered down the mountain 7 days later...i feel for these girls..it scares me hearing this. I would definitely have died if it was later in the year when the temperatures freeze on mountains. I am not sure why they carried on walking in the dark. May they rest in peace now.

[@gloriamontgomery6900]

Very glad to hear you made it out okay. Having been lost in the Smith River rocks area years ago with my poor mother I observed her utter panic. We were headed in the right direction, I had no doubt. But she kept racing on ahead getting exhausted and panicky. I kept her in sight to keep an eye on her, but she was in such a state I couldn’t catch up with her-too much adrenaline

[@yeetnama9094]

But this situation is not comparable, as they weren't isolated and miles and miles from any sort of help or civilization. This was a popular tourist trail with MANY people using it every single day, and the indigenous villages surrounding them. There is no way that they could be stuck out there for THAT LONG without coming across a villager, a tourist, hiker, or not see any lights from the city. Why didn't the dog come back with them? Someone lured them off of that trail, or they ran into an indigenous villager and met foul play, as they were clearly vulnerable and alone for any opportunistic human predator to see

[@yeetnama9094]

If you're cold and lost in a mosquito ridden jungle, you don't take your bras off and keep them in the backpack. My hypothesis is that they were probably sweaty and hot after reaching the top of the summit and they ran into some bad actor who was watching them. This individual struck up a conversation with the girls And he/she lied and told them that there was some "well populated swimming hole just right off the trail" Perhaps against their better judgement, they decided to trust this person and allowed themselves to get tricked into following their directions to get raped, robbed, and or worse. That would explain the perturbed look on their faces in the later pictures, as they started to realize that they weren't getting any closer to this imaginary swimming hole. They probably got spooked and realized too late that they had no phone service to call 911 for help and probably got chased/attacked not long after. Perp was likely a primitive villager with a very child like concept of technology and he likely took the later pictures. Could have been the tour guide, as he's very suspect, he knew the area, and seemed to really obsessively zone in on their comings and goings. Moreover, there's NO REASON that creepy tour guide should have been given access to their room! Why did that house mother allow some older man whom they didn't even know to have access to their room and pilfer through their belongings?? How did he know that they just didn't blow him off and go to have a drink or go to a restaurant??

[@yeetnama9094]

If you're cold and lost in a mosquito ridden jungle, you don't take your bras off and keep them in the backpack. My hypothesis is that they were probably sweaty and hot after reaching the top of the summit and they ran into some bad actor who was watching them. This individual struck up a conversation with the girls And he/she lied and told them that there was some "well populated swimming hole just right off the trail" Perhaps against their better judgement, they decided to trust this person and allowed themselves to get tricked into following their directions to get raped, robbed, and or worse. That would explain the perturbed look on their faces in the later pictures, as they started to realize that they weren't getting any closer to this imaginary swimming hole. They probably got spooked and realized too late that they had no phone service to call 911 for help and probably got chased/attacked not long after. Perp was likely a primitive villager with a very child like concept of technology and he likely took the later pictures. Could have been the tour guide, as he's very suspect, he knew the area, and seemed to really obsessively zone in on their comings and goings. Moreover, there's NO REASON that creepy tour guide should have been given access to their room! Why did that house mother allow some older man whom they didn't even know to have access to their room and pilfer through their belongings?? How did he know that they just didn't blow him off and go to have a drink or go to a restaurant?? Lastly, a girl known for writing and journaling DIDN'T LEAVE A NOTE for her family? No way

[@tamara6212]

​@@yeetnama9094 The dog didn't go with the girls. A guy who owned a small restaurant near the foot of the Piansta. He did it for attention/publicity.

[@cyberspelunker1980]

Things that are weird: 1. Those who take the Pianista know that it’s very difficult to get lost without trying. There’s one obvious trail to return on. At the time the girls disappeared, they would have known they needed to hustle back as it would take 2 hours to get back. Venturing off the path would be very foolish. 2. If they decided to explore further, we would have seen more photos (?) 3. Why did they write “they” on a piece of the map? Who was “they”? Why did they place it next to the homemade flags? 4. The guide went to their [locked] rooms to check out the situation. Their key was not found in their belongings later on. 5. If they took the wrong trail why in the world would they keep going? Why wouldn’t they sit and wait right where they were? 6. How did the guide “happen” to find their remains? 7. Why was there another set of remains found near theirs? (A mother and an infant I think ). 8. The guide’s coffee farm was near the remains. 9. Why didn’t they document their ordeal or write a text draft to tell their family about it? People since the beginning of time have left messages to loved ones to let them know what happened when they know their time is about up. 10. Why only dial 911 once on the first day? Wouldn’t you obsessively dial emergency services in a panic on the first day? 11. The incorrect pin: I find it very hard to believe they didn’t share pins. 12. The deleted photo 13. The photo of the back of Kris’s head. I see wounds or bruises at the base of her neck. Or, evidence of decomposition. Those dark marks are suspect to me. I feel like something spooked them and they ran off the trail maybe. And that perhaps someone eventually caught up with them. They might have even been held against their will in the middle of the jungle.

[@antonioschioppa5669]

Non si sono perse sarebbero state salvate....tutto molto strano...come mai i testimoni sono morti subito dopo?per me è stata una morte violenta

[@quickchris10]

Well I did suspect some of those initially interviewed of obfuscation, such as the guide, because of all the wrong times in the timeline and misidentification by him and other witnesses. But I don't push aside the chance they could have died naturally. I mean, they were stupid enough to go without water or hats, for example, wearing shorts, so who knows what their ignorance made them capable of. I would think: long pants in case of spiders and vipers! Water!!! And I have never been there. Didn't they study anything about their destination? Buy they did leave traces, that someone, maybe the guide, or misguide, maybe he should hace been called, ignored. Two people like that don't go for a walk without leaving tracks. Wouldn't they have had to pee in the bushes? Would they not have broken off some leaves with which to wipe, for example? Stepped upon/broke sticks. I just know they had to have left signs, however inadvertent, and once they became lost they would have known from the story of "Hansel & Gretel" to leave signs.

[@SlimSlashie]

Agree with most points, but 1 and 5 FOR SURE. First of all, don't be a dope and take the wrong trail. Second, if you DID, don't keep going. Stay still, you'll be found sooner that way.

[@abigailgrace8160]

Maybe spooked and pursued by sommeone and then fell after leaving the trail to escape??

[@Dmitrij-nl3sc]

Good points. Those who believe in simple foolishness of the girls can't explain why they didn't made any photos between their last photo on 1 April and call for help. Maybe they lost the route and you don't want to make photos under the stress but they called 112 only after 5 hours after the last photo if I'm not mistaken. It seem strange to think that they tried to find a path on their own all these hours in jungles without calling someone.

[@ginge_binge]

Casefile is always so respectful and what an outro. Well done.

[@kathwhite6850]

Thanks for your comprehensive, thorough work and reporting on this mystifying case....

[@Alexa-Saja58]

There is a picture with Kris holding two water bottles, but only one is found. A man said he heard someone scream night 1st, when they searched, they found one water bottle.

[@andreear.3135]

you're doing an amazing job. thank you so much for the content!

[@hephaestus6365]

Beautiful girls should not travel in strange places without some good male friends around. It's insane.

[@scottcantdance804]

I have gone back and forth on this case for years. Sometimes I think it was a terrible case of two women getting lost in the jungle. Other times I feel like foul play was likely. I hope their families get more solid answers someday.

[@ninedaysjane2466]

I recommend a book called "Deep Survival." Stories like this are so incredibly common. Inexperienced people get in over their heads and die. It's sad, but foul play is vanishingly rare.

[@kit.e6864]

me too, it mostly makes sense they got lost. but then I hear lots of women go missing in that area, even local women and then foul play also seem possible.

[@a.e2385]

​@@kit.e6864 Definitely foul play. Can't believe people still believe in the lost theory

[@thecatatemyhomework]

I've heard this story many times on different KZbin channels but there are so many details in here that I've never heard before.

[@apoyolodge]

I have been living in Nicaragua for 14 years and although I’ve never felt unsafe here, I would never go hiking alone without a local person with me.

[@charlisays]

This is one of those cases that bothers me a lot. I think it was foul play and possibly the tour guide who was said to be very creepy with women. I think if one were injured, the other could have made it down in the morning to get help.

[@veselinivanov7208]

It would NOT be one suspect- there were minimum 2 men who are involved in this case .They have plenty of time to create fake narrative that the girls were lost .In this kind of countries like Panama - local people would NOT assist to the police with information at all.

[@willowway4104]

My heart breaks for their parents.

[@kane8t2]

Why was there no concern that neither of them arrived back to their residence by night fall, after going on a trail hike without a guide? To me the whole thing smells of a set up from the very beginning, including the job they were meant to be starting that week at the school. Someone with power made the decision to abduct them the day they arrived in Boquete......

[@carolinebrennan3864]

Listened to this channel so much during covid, and just today, it finally popped back up on my feed! So happy! Love this channel!

[@lindaarrington9397]

Haven't heard about this case I really appreciate new stories. I love your gentle voice I'm in USA It's after 3am And I can't get enough Respect from VA. 🇺🇸

[@ianwilliams5435]

Best true crime channel going. Keep up the good work!

[@rhondamcewananderson3968]

Many thanks Casefile.... so young 😓💔

[@vixlarue3820]

This case has stuck with me since I first heard about it, and I still haven't formed a solid opinion. I'm normally one to follow Occam's razor, but there's so many elements without a clear explanation. I just found your channel, and I'm impressed that you included the information a lot of other videos on this case leave out.

[@cabooseabs6864]

It just makes no sense why if they were injured and immobilized for at least 8 days they wouldn't write what happened in their phones or use the still charged digital camera to record a video. 8 days being stuck in one spot is a long time and after several days they would have to know they probably wouldn't make it. Then you've got the missing photo in the suspiciously exact spot in the sequence that had to be permanently deleted using a computer and not the camera. On the other hand if they did run into people with bad intentions, why would they allow them to keep their phones to call emergency services on the second day. The area is remote, but not that remote. With at least 8 days to walk youd think they would find another trail that would lead them to some other people or village. No one theory seems to fit all the evidence.

[@ninedaysjane2466]

1) Phones died; 2) They were out of their minds from dehydrations and starvation; 3) People who are lost and possibly injured don't make good decisions. There are books about this stuff.

[@naomiledger1374]

potentially held against their will and not able to access their phones during that period of time, or perhaps injured and unable to reach their phones initially, or the phones fell out of their reach and it took them that long to reach and locate them. Anything is possible.

[@Babesinthewood97]

Maybe more photos was deleted or they weren’t allowed to use the camera..

[@SusanSez1]

As usual, superb presentation. Thank you so much.

[@AnnaLee33]

When I flew from Germany to America, to reunite with my American fiancee, my father, to my surprise, burst into tears, and trembled when he hugged me. Tears were streaming down his face, I had never seen him like this before. He had a premonition of what was awaiting me. Not being welcome in the new family. Getting harshly critized. My fiancee being a wimp about it. Getting sick from the stress and feeling unloved. Feeling so ill I finally called me Dad to wire me money asap for a scheduled flight home. I made it into the plane and rested there and back in Germany, I was too weak to board a train. Dad said: Rent a cab, I pay him there. Even the cab driver noticed how bad I looked. But back home, with medication and my family's love, I felt healed within 2 days. --- My Dad somehow knew that his only daughter would have a terrible time. He was so happy I was back home. -- I felt reminded of my parents when I heard of the families of Kris and Lisanne. May they find peace of mind and comfort in their grief.

[@josephpratt3747]

The best and most thorough and thoughtful explanation of this case. Thank you.

[@teamjones2488]

Hell yeah! Gonna relax and listen to the best true crime podcast out there. Casefiles! Much love drom Detroit 💯

[@ConnorEverything1997]

its actually "Casefile" not "Casefiles"

[@limasierra6639]

​@@ConnorEverything1997You seem like the kind of person who throws out the actuallys a little too often.

[@ConnorEverything1997]

@@limasierra6639 actually, I don't ☝️🤓

[@danrobinson572]

R.I.P. both of them!!!

[@Chaz_Bourno]

Been waiting for the next upload

[@benmiller6039]

Great episode

[@stevebond7387]

Thank you Casefile, for producing the finest true crime content available.

[@GradKat]

I hate it when people try to deduce a whole load of things from a person’s expression in a photo. We have all of us have put on a “happy face” when posing for a photo, when we might not at that moment be feeling happy at all. The girls were no doubt feeling very tired after reaching the summit of the trail, and maybe thought they could take a short cut back, and then got lost. Common sense may dictate staying put and waiting for help, but people in distress don’t always act rationally.

[@degrelleholt6314]

I've heard so many versions of this tale; I don't know what to believe.

[@Sandoz-tq7qj]

me too

[@jenniferj5324]

Same

[@andreea81]

This makes me think of the Missing 411 cases from David Paulides.

[@Laura-tp8wz]

Yes, I thought of that too.

[@atonementthomas9038]

YES! Especially the part with the neatly folded clothes and all.

[@Laura-tp8wz]

Exactly.

[@jenniferj5324]

He means well sometimes, and sometimes he has cognitive bias. He leaves out many details. Most of his cases are not as mysterious as he portrays them to be, but there are a handful that are unexplainable.

[@Melissa_anne_2024]

Love this channel. About to binge like crazy… can’t wait!!

[@rotkatzeredcat4284]

Lisanne pronounced close to Lisahnah/Lisahneh. If you leave off the last e, it's like saying umbrell instead of umbrella. IMO Lisanne had been having premonitions against going on this trip for some time. Of course the problem with this sad case is that there is no one decisive clue defining whether it was misadventure or foul play. Except for one comment by a Spanish speaking doctor on another site stating that if the girls fell into the river their bones would have scrape marks on them from being rubbed against the rocks by the flow of the river, but they didn't. Also some say that the taxi driver said that he dropped the girls at the trail start at 3pm. But their photos show time beginning at 11am. What if the cabbie actually picked them up at 3pm but said he was dropping them off in case he was seen in the vicinity? Then abducted them?

[@teyianneful]

The foot in the boot is key IMO. It was recovered pretty early as noted by the decaying smell that led them to it. they should b able to determine whether it was removed from the body by a tool or animal or something else. I think the community covered it up for fear of lost revenue from tourism. Like that island in fiji. . . .

[@naomiledger1374]

Such a well known case, and I have my own theory (which no doubt is not unique), that they girls were likely led or forced to continue their hike in the wrong direction, were possibly held against their will for some time, and then they managed to escape, after which an accident probably ended the life of one of them, leading to the other one trying to use the phone but not knowing or being able to remember the pin due to trauma. And finally the last of them perished alone. It seems unlikely that they would have voluntarily continued past the completion point of the hike. It's a sad tale, no matter the truth.

[@scottcantdance804]

To Europeans, from a North American: The great majority of Central America isn't safe for women traveling solo or in pairs. Nowhere in the region is as safe as the countries you are coming from, and to locals, you are obviously outsiders. This means you stick out as clear targets to locals with bad intentions. You need to be in groups or have men traveling with you.

[@Aryasvitkona]

Honestly even women travelling with men need to be extremely careful. It's not hard to separate two people if you try. And also don't think you're safe just because you're a guy, a single male traveller is also extremely vulnerable, more so if you're slim and lack a solid build.

[@scottcantdance804]

​@@Aryasvitkonaagreed. I wouldn't advise a man to travel alone through these regions, unless they were both fluent in Spanish and had street smarts. An ideal minimum mixed group size might be four. But even with larger groups, tourists go missing in these countries all the time. Not every country in the region has the same level of danger, but overall... None will be anywhere near as safe as a place like Denmark or the Netherlands.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Has anyone making these comments ever even been to Latin America? Asking as a Canadian with family in Mexico, who I visit solo at least twice a year. I feel completely safe in the small coastal town where they live, as does my sister, who is raising her children there. Never had a bad experience with the locals, especially because they know that turistas are a good source of income for them! Just because you've heard horror stories about a place doesn't make them true. And there are few things in the world as beautiful as looking down on the ocean, from a jungle trail that you`re hiking with your nieces while their mom takes an afternoon off to go surf!

[@cyberspelunker1980]

⁠@@thing_under_the_stairsPanamanian native here. Women traveling solo is risky in any country but particularly in the jungles of Panama.

[@psi6028]

​@@thing_under_the_stairsdude stop dreaming

[@Sandoz-tq7qj]

Why the taxi driver died so mysteriously ? I do not believe he was drowned accidentaly .

[@SusanSez1]

This is a case that disheartens me more than usual. Did they take wrong turns, get lost, get injured and then suffer fatal injuries? Or did the tour guide, about whom I've read some suspicious things, do it? (Feliciano Gonzalez.) Whether lost and alone in the jungle or with their killer, I have a hard time wrapping my head around how utterly alone and frightened one would feel over the magnitude of such a situation. How overwhelming it must have been once hope began to wane. I feel sorry and heartbroken for these two young women and for their families. RIP Kris and Lisanne. A hug and a prayer to their family members.

[@rashone2879]

I had heard this case awhile back, but this was an excellent presentation. Thanks.

[@freelander5370]

Here is my theory based on few known facts and some speculation: We know that they started hiking around 11am and they would've summited around 3 and returned to the starting point around 5pm or so. I also saw in another video that the host family dog went with them. Based on the girls' personalities, it was almost impossible for them to do something rash unless emergencies happended(their excessive planning tendencies). The guide, Feliciano is still guiding people on this trail according to alltrails and he is quiet popular. We knew that he went in the girl's room and checked on them which is soemwhat weird considering that he was denied on being their tour guide? We knew that there was one picture deleted in their photos. Why was only one photo deleted? It seems somewhat weired to stop and just delete one photo. The Dutch rescue team searched almost the entire mountain and found nothing. The backpack and body parts weren't found until two weeks later and the bones were bleached. Somehow one of the girl's bones decomposed faster than the other and one of them sustained an injury after she died. So here is my theory: On the day the two girls went hiking, they were dropped off by the taxi driver around 11, the two summited but realized someone was following them, they tried to escape the follower(s) so they kept going but were eventually caught up. They could've sustained a fall with one of them, or it could be caused by traumatic injuries by the culprit at different time frames. There are private propertis up on the trail likely invoved with the local gangs. They were locked up in a cabin of some sort, likely suffered abuse with no cells signals(as there are claims on alltrails as to gps and signals non existent). Pictures were taken to make it look like they were lost in a jungle and wanted to use the flashlights to find their way. Then, they were evetually bleached and disposed. Few more additional notes: dog returned to the lodging by end of the day, there were comments about the tour guide being creepy to european females(perhaps tour guide tipped off locals?), taxi driver was killed so there could be some mistake with the timeline.

[@marcvanwesten2759]

Except there is 0 evidence for any of that. People saying a guide is creepy doens't make him an jungle ninja who can also perform IT magic

[@francifra3803]

In my opinion the didn’t get lost in the giungle but the they came back from the Pianista trail. They met “someone” at the end oh the path and went swimming. The group photo in the water, was taken after the excursion.

[@shadquirk607]

It's completely and utterly impossible for these chronically unprepared and inexperienced women to get lost and die.

[@maryfrancesbeckerhaggerty5353]

I just will never understand why people go to these countries seeking adventure. I know young people want excitement and world experiences but some of these countries are so poor. Tourism is their only way to survive which invites a criminal element. Police procedures and legal procedures give way to money. We are often hearing of these types of "disappearances". What strikes me particularly strange is how they had a sort of travel agent and somehow arrived a WEEK before they were supposed to be there. And the people at the school were rude.

[@ConnorEverything1997]

EXACTLY. The reward these people see despite the massive risk is nonsense.

[@nataliesiddle8507]

The teachers at the school had a timetable and both girls arrived very early, and may have indicated they would end the placement early too - a massive disruption that they clearly hadn’t informed the school about before they even embarked on their travels. I would imagine that these schools probably have a LOT of places booked by people overseas who rock up expecting it to be more of a holiday, or that they’d spend their entire time there posting pics of the kids they’re ‘helping’ to Facebook. The girls were definitely there to immerse themselves in the culture and the language, so planned to be there for quite some time. First step (if you’re not staying at a resort or an embassy) is to get the important local contact details, and a local SIM card. It may have been in the girls plans to sort out a SIM and maybe grab a local map, but they made a hike through unknown jungle their priority over that. A simple error in judgement.

[@ishgilliath]

Panama is far from poor and has highly developed tourist infrastructure, especially the places they visited. It's not like they were hitchhiking over the Afghanistan cmon...

[@maryfrancesbeckerhaggerty5353]

I guess Im wrong about Panama. I didn't realize it was a very well off area. My bad. I thought it was a big tourist area.

[@Crafty-One]

Incredible channel😢❤

[@SlimSlashie]

"The body had no sign of violence" "her shoe was found with a foot still in it" those 2 sentences are mutually exclusive. Unless a shark ate her... Violence happened to these 2 girls.

[@aggressiona3951]

Actually shoes commonly hold onto human remains even when the rest of the body’s disturbed. I know another podcast had talked to US park rangers who said so, and not to mention the Pacific Northwest washed up feet are a common occurrence.

[@foxxybaby3770]

The two girls were ill prepared, unexperienced and dressed for going to the beach, not into the jungle. They were very naive and too careless. They planned this trip for a long time but didn't deal with possible dangers and emergency situations. Well, young people do this and evil things can happen everywhere. I wonder what the parents are blaming themselves for. Terrible outcome of a vacation for two young girls.

[@Sandoz-tq7qj]

Tell me your opinion about the April 8 night photos 📸📸📸please

[@foxxybaby3770]

I have already thought through all the possibilities. It makes me mad but its just speculation. I think that night Lisanne lay exhausted, dying on the floor, clutching her camera and sending signals until she passed. But how the camera got into the bag? I have endless questions and nothing really makes sense. I sometimes think after the last daytime photo they had an argue so there were no more photos. Lisanne didn't like it in Boquete and she blamed Kris. Then an accident happened. Do you think they made it to the monkey bridge?

[@debbybuff4361]

This is the most Ive heard of this case, most have been 10-15 minute clips. Way more information here. I personally think it was foul play by more than one person, imho. The thing that bothers me is the pics on the camera. I just have too many questions there. Great information though. Really has me thinking.

[@disgruntledmum4916]

I wonder if the night photos were taken when they were both hurt and lying unable to move, and they tried to use the flash for the search parties close by. Maybe one of them heard something, or thought they did? I am sure they realised that they had to conserve their phones' power, and were switching them on only when they had moved far enough to try for a signal again. The power would drain faster if the phone was searching for a signal, wouldn't it? I think one probably got hurt while near the summit of the hike, and they decided the hurt one couldn't return down the path, and carried on in the hope of meeting help. And they were unlucky. I suspect a terrible accident, and neither being fit enough to leave. Very sad.

[@Tom_Lube]

@@disgruntledmum4916I agree. It's even likely they were using the camera flash to check if one of the girls had hurt her head after said fall and them finding eachother.

[@ninabutkovich2151]

Great videos

[@cheesymiccheeseballs8227]

I'd be willing to believe that it was all just an accident but that deleted photo drives me up the wall. I don't believe for a second it was a glitch or that the camera got bumped around in their backpack and accidentally deleted it

[@everibarovski7963]

Extremely well researched this particular case. My theory is they probably slipped and fell into the river. One fell first and the other girl tried to reach her but she ended up falling hutting a rock. So many questions. Yes you can go to unknown places but this was a jungle they were ill prepared i think given the location. It was a big risk and so sad how both girls died. 😢😢😢😢😢

[@DinoCism]

This kind of thing happens in National Parks in North America all the time. When it happens in South America though people's minds immediately jump to human tracking or organ theft. Obviously it's possible and these things do happen but the most likely answer is they got stuck on the mountain after dark, got lost, got injured and died. It's easy to say "why didn't they do this" after the fact when you weren't there. A lot of times people's reactions in these situations are not as logical as you might like. It's possible that there was someone else there they were trying to avoid, who knows.

[@Sandoz-tq7qj]

@@DinoCism A fair comment 👍

[@YiriethM]

9:33 as a Panamanian myself, "yak yak yak" is also how I feel about my culture.

[@susanlane214]

This was a case of protecting tourism. At one time I watched a variety of series and ended up believing that the girls soon came down from the path into town and agreed to go to a swimming hole with locals and met their demise. I wasn’t sure if it was to be trafficked and leaned towards organ harvesting. The camera and other props were all part of the coverup. It did become obvious who was responsible including one of the young men putting out taunting photos of his girlfriend dressed like one of the girls. Not safe for travel.

[@ninedaysjane2466]

That's insane. Stop propagating that nonsense.

[@loredanadincu4300]

No it was not. They got lost and after had an accident and died

[@kit.e6864]

some say it's strange they didn't leave any notes or write anything about what was happening since they were journal writers. she wrote she didn't want her mom to worry, seems like she would've tried to leave something to let them know what happened so this big mystery wasn't left for the parents.

[@Maligroot]

Thanks Matey 👍

[@fromthedarkpool1863]

What if the girls heard noises and believed someone was following them? Maybe they took the photographs to light up the environment around them so they could see if there was somebody stalking them.

[@NefariousEnough]

This tale doesn't lend itself to a podcast. It requires the photographs associated with it.

[@RightsForZombies]

That forensic anthropologist? I understand why they remained anonymous because their opinion is terrible. They were in an environment that is extremely conducive to rapid decomposition. Their bodies could have easily broken apart naturally during decomposition. The recovered remains were extremely limited, they don’t know what signs of damage the other hundreds of bones might show. There doesn’t seem to be anything at all suspicious about the condition of the bones. The broken foot and stressed tibia make sense. The pelvis could indicate it was fractured at the time of death or post mortem. They could have died near the bank, begun rapid decomposition, and then been swallowed up by the rising river. Their bodies would have easily broken apart without necessarily sustaining trauma that is reflected on the skeleton. The same thing is true of animal predation. Their statement is absurd. Even the bleaching can be explained. It’s a single small bone that was exposed to intense sunlight in a hot environment. Bones that are chemically bleached, especially delicate bones like ribs, often show signs of chemical damage. If their bodies were interfered with chemically, why would only a single rib be bleached but not her pelvis, or any other remains? It makes sense if just a few bones were exposed to harsher natural conditions because of environmental/natural factors far more than by criminal interference. Comparing the remains of different bodies in different environments in different circumstances is crazy. The jungles of Columbia are going to cause vastly different patterns of decomposition and distribution than a random American national park. Different environment, different climate, different weather, different wildlife and so forth. You need to be able to replicate the conditions to compare the results. It’s asinine and unscientific. Forensic anthropology just happens to be my specialty, and I have an interest in hiking and have heard a million cases with sadly similar stories. People get lost, both prepared and unprepared, and elude searchers for various reasons. This seems like a very sad but ultimately mundane case of lost hikers succumbing to injury and the elements despite their best attempts to save themselves. A lot of lost people don’t leave final messages as it can be demoralising or they’re too weak or aren’t thinking clearly. It’s sad that the chain of custody wasn’t observed and the investigation was seemingly poor, but I think people are too eager to sensationalise the case.

[@Sandoz-tq7qj]

I've read your theory in full .

[@RightsForZombies]

@@Sandoz-tq7qj Wow, thank you. I genuinely didn’t really think anyone would. I just got so upset by the irresponsibility of the statement. The poor family’s closure was delayed in the worst possible way by thinking their daughter had been murdered and was being denied justice. We have a duty as forensic anthropologists to be sensitive and diligent and not speculate in front of grieving families.

[@marcvanwesten2759]

Hear hear...

[@zw2237]

Ultimate narrative voice.

[@Dmitrij-nl3sc]

In Panama there are still cases of people ritually murdered in a remote areas.

[@marcvanwesten2759]

They also sell fine cheeses. Your point?

[@Dmitrij-nl3sc]

@@marcvanwesten2759 my point is that local indigenous people can be very unfriendly to foreigners if they can be cruel towards their own people. They wouldn't care if someone murders foreigners...

[@jenniferj5324]

Happens every weekend in Chicago, too.

[@elizabethter-sahakyan6692]

I've always felt they made their way back and met wrong people later on. As to their bag and bones, they were put there much later...

[@SurnaturalM]

I travelled all continents, even antartica, I did very dangerous stuff because I didn't think it was dangerous. They must have had some kind of accident. It happened so quickly and they were stuck there. I think some kind of accident is the most likely explanation.

[@Bree-df6dd]

❤ thankyou I’ll sleep well now

[@Baskerville22]

Don't take holiday trips to 3rd-world places

[@veselinivanov7208]

Serial killers cab be found in the USa and Australia.Does it mean we should go there ? Yes but you are right one thing - the police 🚔 is very corrupt in countries such as Panama and local people would NOT willing( want ) to help with information if they knew something .They would NOT help because criminals are from their community or even their relatives.

[@gl3832]

Foul play. Pure and simple.

[@loricourtland8909]

Did they try and get prints off the camera?

[@junederksen9205]

The photos in the dark. Cell phone off and on…I have defo theories on this. I don’t believe they died by accident.

[@markusmaier2277]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJWxh5-Hppt_pNEsi=GeJ6D1mmx3hyPS0_

[@ulrikezachmann7596]

Like sheep to the slaughter. What can you say?

[@Sandoz-tq7qj]

My theory : 🕵‍♀ " The gang drowned the Dutch women at the hotspring after their hike " Dutch women went to two places in one day . Firstly the Pianista . Secondly the Caldera Hotspring . Two vehicles were involved . Taxi and red truck . Both have been seen by eye-witnesses . They first met each other at the island resort . Kris and Lisanne were very keen in water sports. There are many photos to verify this point . The police soon found out what really happened and decided to drown the gang in return. Taxi driver secretly worked for and deeply associated with the gang and other cartels so he also has been drowned. On April 1, he rided Kris , Lisanne and two gang men from the house to the trail head . Those two guys were Osman and Jose . Eye witness testified seeing extra two men inside that taxi . Kris and Lisanne did not hike alone . They have companions . Taxi driver lied about the time he picked up the girls . He also hided the men's identities . I have looked carefully and thought about those summit photos , Kris and Lissanne are showing their thumbs up 👍👍👍👍 They never did this before in any photo any where any time any day in their Panama tour . The villagers living or working near the trailhead might be dishonest too . They did not tell the truth . They were either corruptabled or been threatened . Didn't the local police suddenly investigate and search the hotspring area on April 6 which is about 20 kilometers away ? If they did not believe that Kris and Lisanne were drowned there, they would not bother to search. I believe they actually found something . I will never believe the gang and driver were drowned due to sudden health isssues. They were still young and very healthy. The night photos were probably taken by an assigned person to cover up and to stage a lost in jungle scenario. Bones, shoes, shorts, backpack and other items were planted at different locations at different times to be found only by an assigned person F or his female worker . If Kris and Lisanne were really lost and died in the forest, their parents need not sign any hush agreement 📝 I also believe all calls 112 or 911 were staged , planted into their mobile phones. Fake . Why didn't Kris or Lisanne ever tried to call their parents , boyfriends , house owner ? Why they never attempted to send a text message or sms ? If they were both injured due to a fall and have broken their pelvis bone and foot , how could they reach the far away monkey bridge less say crossing it ? 🐒 Foul play and cover up is most likely . Thank you for reading my theory 🕵‍♀

[@marcvanwesten2759]

Yes, your very convoluted story could be right. Or they could have had an accident like thousands of other people in the wilds each year.

[@Sandoz-tq7qj]

@@marcvanwesten2759 Would you consider making your own video about this case . You seem to have good knowledge and many ideas .

[@marcvanwesten2759]

@@Sandoz-tq7qj I might in the future, but there are a lot of good video's out there!

[@NightShooter87]

Very unwise idea in the beginning. Where I live, I've become disorientated, with the weather changing in a few minutes, so somewhere hostile and not knowing the area, I just think it's misadventure, no evidence for any third party. Terrible for the families.

[@0oDaMange888]

No mention of dna swabs taken from any of the electronics. Such a sad story

[@Tom_Lube]

I mean it was found in a river. Not very likely to get DNA off that.

[@0oDaMange888]

@@Tom_Lube how about if the bag was on the torso under/in the rocks, sticks etc. and whomever found it ripped it off the body. Just an assumption that she was wearing the backpack. When she died

[@Faithandwriting]

Also why would photo 509 be deleted ?? The police couldn’t even retrieve the photo it’s all strange

[@Laura-tp8wz]

May they RIP

[@Crafty-One]

CL background ambiance music too low for me to hear it, me personally and my phone is maxed atm

[@gulinp1]

Over years i heared for so many cases, but this one that always stuck with me. But at the end of a day i lean toward accident way more than foul play. People just undermind how irrational people behave once they get lost and panic. Especially if it happends in middle of a damn jungle without any visiable trace or road to follow. As for camera , i think vast majority of pictures is just them using camera for light via flash. I assume they both fell during a night. Just imagine being in middle of nowhere, without any light, while raining and it's a jungle and whole animal world is active so you hear so many sounds. And you are hungry and dead tired and maybe already injuried.

[@ishgilliath]

But how did they get lost in the first place? Cause the hike to the ridge does have a very clear and easy to follow path and there is no way you could just forget how to get back down from there ...

[@antonioschioppa5669]

​@@ishgilliathesatto... è omicidio

[@marcvanwesten2759]

​@@ishgilliathpeople get lost in the wilds by the thousands each year and make weird choices.

[@mischamar]

Hostéél, hostéééél!

[@GioVizzini-h5c]

Foul play 100%

[@msyallen]

It looks like they found some remains and boots . Sad story

[@PaulZorabedian]

As a American in CostaRica i see more women want to head to the mountains live with locals of the path big mistake 100 stay around tourist no problem and dont fall in love STAY on the path

[@sidbobby3233]

Happy 😁 noon world frm the 🇬🇧 🙏✌

[@tatianalyulkin410]

My precious angels, WHY couldn't you have gone to Puerto Rico?

[@jenniferj5324]

Or Costa Rica, as originally planned.

[@aishalea7508]

murdered... held captive for a wèek then walked to their death. coincidence they cabbie died nope, coincidence one photo is missing nope.

[@huntlife]

My thoughts also.

[@antonioschioppa5669]

Da quello che ho letto anche altre persone sono morte non solo il tassista

[@marcvanwesten2759]

Any evindence for that?

[@melishy30]

Misadventure.

[@garethadams9610]

Nosh of the month.

[@ConnorEverything1997]

The risk reward in this case is why i will never encourage my kid to trave to Asia or even Europe quite frankly. The reward is seeing things in person that you can see on google images and the risk is being chopped up and never seen again. just complete nonsense to let your daughter traverse Europe without a male partner

[@loredanadincu4300]

You act like Europe is some kind of jungle. Please Europe is way safe than your f USA and some countries in Asia too

[@Hannius1]

This happened in Central America? What does that have to do with Asia and Europe?

[@ConnorEverything1997]

@@Hannius1 yea fair, my comment still stands tho

[@loredanadincu4300]

@ConnorEverything1997 not it doesn't. USA is far worse than any country in Europe or Asia

[@ishgilliath]

Looking at pics on Google Maps instead of travelling is like looking at a movie poster instead of watching the movie 💀

[@samaireoctober5584]

This is one of the worst analysis I've heard of this case so far.

[@HaramXL]

Which one was the best?

[@roadwarrior528]

Best AI Narrator in the business.

[@Mrs_B]

Is it IA takling?

[@stee8345]

You mean AI? No, its a narrator from Australia 😂

[@Mrs_B]

@@stee8345 thank you, and yes Ai 🤪

[@peterpanic5052]

Is the voice AI generated?

[@texastea5686]

No

[@Jason-gg4lm]

Who the fuck goes to the jungles of Panama and thinks they are going to make it out alive 🤷‍♂️

[@ishgilliath]

It's a popular, easy 2hr hiking trail at one of the major tourist destinations in the country... It's not like they were dropped somewhere in the middle of the Amazon, dozens of tourists walk up and down that exact trail every day without incidents...

[@Sandoz-tq7qj]

@@ishgilliath Do you mean foul play ?

[@HB-iq6bl]

Ah well, european girls are adventurous, sorry they had a dreadful end. But thx , I'll wait for your show next week

[@Gotchalaboom]

You could start by pronouncing their names right.

[@jenniferj5324]

There's always one of you ... relax, no one is being disrespectful on purpose. I am sure you have an acceent and cannot pronounce every name correctly.