Were William Compton and Thomas Tallis, and George Boleyn and Mark Smeaton lovers?

[@JaneEasterbrook-bn3ux]

Poor George, Poor Mark, vilified even now. Thank God for your truthful answers!

[@victorrodrigueesoficial]

Claire, about George and Jane childless marriage, I have something to say as a gay man. I've met many guys who are married and closeted and have kids. It proves nothing. Awesome video, again.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Well, yes, but the suggestion that he was gay is a 20th century idea and is not based on evidence. There weren't even rumours of it at the time. I could say that Henry VIII was gay or bi and then say to people "well, you can't prove he wasn't!".

[@victorrodrigueesoficial]

@@anneboleynfiles I'll ask you about his charges. Wasn't he and Smeaton charged with sodomy as well? I've read that somewhere.

[@onemercilessming1342]

I keep telling people NOT to confuse documentaries with dramatizations, but my words fall on deaf ears.

[@--enyo--]

Another woman who seems maligned as being hated by her husband in history and media a lot is Anne Shakespeare/Hathaway. I feel a lot of this is biased by modern perceptions of her being older.

[@kathrynrae1808]

Claire, if you have taught us anything, it's that Tudor times were well and truly exciting and suspenseful enough without having to make things up!

[@anneboleynfiles]

Very true!

[@amandagrayson389]

Thank you Omar for these questions, and thank you Claire, for these answers! I was really interested in this one. I think you could probably do an entire video on Retha Warnicke’s book, The Rise and Fall of Anne Boleyn. This is where I learned about George Boleyn and Mark Smeaton being ‘libertines.’ 🙄 And I did believe it for a while. So I really appreciated your thoughts on this. Tallis also deserves some attention- maybe on a different channel ☹️- because he composed all this church/liturgical music and survived 4 Tudor monarchs while doing so. No mean feat, I think. Thanks again, Claire!

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, Tallis's music is beautiful.

[@pandemicpat8382]

I'm not sure if I've commented before but I really enjoy your videos. I've been watching for about a year. I love English history over here across the pond in the USA. I know the Tudors were a short part of the history but you tell it so well. Thank you. 😊👏👏

[@Lyndell-P]

Hello 👋 I too have only known and viewed Claire's most wonderful videos for under a year and (as new to the use of technology) I have only known 'how' to comment for under a year. So, just as I was most warmly welcomed and encouraged to leave a comment OR question (if I so wished) I now welcome you! So WELCOME! Hello 🙂. You're in the USA. I'm in Australia 🇭🇲🦘. So lovely to read your comment and to see 👀 you here. Yes, Claire really brings Tudor History alive, doesn't she? ... AND her enthusiasm is so wonderful! I'm a huge FAN. ... You mentioned that the Tudors were only a short part of English royal history. True enough, however it is interesting to note that all up the Tudors ruled (whether a King or Queen - 5 in all, not including Lady Jane Grey, often referred to as the 9 Day Queen) for 118 Years. From 1485 until 1603. The longest Tudor reign being that of Queen Elizabeth 1st. YET in All of England's history of monarchy, from Alfred the Great (871-899) including up until the Present Queen, Queen Elizabeth 2nd (1952 - continues to reign now in 2021) - there have only Ever been 59 crowned kings and queens. So, for over 1,000 years there have only been 59 monarchs, and 5 of those monarchs were Tudor monarchs. 👑 Quite remarkable when you think about it, don't you think? ... I only know this from one of Claire's many books. This information I obtained from the "Illustrated Kings and Queens of England" by Claire Ridgway, Timothy Ridgway and Verity Ridgway. A great reference book. Of course, Claire's other books mainly concentrate around the Tudor dynasty and the Boleyns. ALL her books are so easy to read and understand. A real joy - just like her videos. ..... As I said, I'm Australian but I'm also a royalist (I love the royal family). After all, Australia is a Commonwealth country, so even though we have our own elected government, with a Prime Minister etc., we also have a Governor General who represents the Queen, Queen Elizabeth II as she remains the Queen of Australia, as well as Queen of many other Commonwealth countries (of which there are many). ... ANYWAY - Lovely to 'meet' you. Hope you'll comment more often. So pleased you enjoy Claire's videos, as so many of her fans do. Bye from Lyndell Prewett in Australia 🇭🇲🦘 🙂👋

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you, I'm so very glad to hear that!

[@dorothywillis1]

Thank you for a clear answer to a question that keeps being asked over and over no matter how often it is answered.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

I'm curious: Did people understand at the time that a lot of their misery was caused by Henry? That people were innocent of the charges brought against them? I frequently see people blaming the advisors, like Cromwell or blaming themselves for their sins on the scaffold, but did any of them ever point to Henry? I keep seeing people at the time singing praise for him, how brilliant and glorious he was, but did anyone actually, at least after his death say: "You know what? I never liked him! He was a terrible person!" Or did people genuinely believe he was doing a great job (maybe except for the religious front, but even there it was of course the advisers fault, not his personally) and that Henry was truly a model monarch.

[@SmartStart24]

Wow that’s a great thought. I bet the people were legitimately brainwashed back then, when it came to royalty. Or maybe as they say even if they did know Henry was the true villain, they dare not say it in order to protect their family.

[@mrfunglobal9745]

@@SmartStart24 or to avoid a more prolonged and painful death.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think people kept those thoughts to themselves and were focused on making a good death for their soul's sake and for their family's sake.

[@graphiquejack]

there were rumblings about his annulment to Katherine, then his murder of Anne, where nasty poems were being circulated about both Jane and Henry. And there was a rebellion during the Pilgrimage of Grace where the king was widely criticized. Yes, he was definitely blamed along with others who the public blamed for bad policy. Overall, the country mainly admired him, but he was not free from criticism.

[@autumnpeacock4156]

I’m so tired of the argument that he must have been gay because his wife didn’t have kids.... many people cant have kids that’s not a new thing. Of the argument that Jane was unhappy because he was gay... they had a very loving relationship! Kinda crazy

[@elanabethfariss117]

Right? Also, the charges of incest brought against him with Anne because they were affectionate with each other as a brother and sister.

[@mangot589]

I’ve never heard they had even a good relationship🤔.

[@jordanp4259]

Even though these were completely fictional, I really enjoyed these storylines.

[@AITrademarket]

Really enjoying the new video Q &A format Claire. I always thought “The Tudors“ took artistic license for the sake of audience ratings. It did work quite well as people are still discussing it all these years later. The ubiquitous Madge is as lively as usual

[@will2Collett]

I have enjoyed your talks for over a year. Regarding this subject, People in our times should be aware of the pettiness of following what was normal for those times. If these went on, they were very secretive. A poem of hating women can be the pain of a jilted lover. Our values are more open. What we say is risque was scandalous back then. You are the historian, I only know what I have simply read. I like your answers, but law and order and society were very very different. Thanks so much Ms Claire for your sensible explanations. 👍🙏💗😁⚔

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, society was very different, but there was not even a hint of something that was seen as scandalous at the time. There were no rumours surrounding these men, and Compton and Tallis weren't even at court at the same time. While secret affairs obviously happened, there's not one tiny jot of evidence regarding these men.

[@will2Collett]

@@anneboleynfiles I have to laugh when people nowadays try to create their own theories of what WAS. i Think it's tough enough to be here than anywhere else and I do have an imagination. I am living in the 20/21st century. Our times are tough enough.

[@jeannebowes2898]

So enjoyed our Q and A vid. Love the kitty , too!

[@barbaramccoy3592]

This was so fascinating. Thanks Omar and Claire. I am of the camp that finds the truth way more enthralling than ridiculous fictions!

[@emmacrooke807]

I was wondering something from rewatching the first season of the Tudors. If Anne Boleyn had died from the Sweating Sickness, what would Henry's plan have been? Obviously he was set on divorcing Katherine but at that point he only had one off mistresses because of his commitment to Anne not any other long term prospects in mind.

[@--enyo--]

Skip straight to an Anne of Cleves or a Jane Seymour equivalent, I guess.

[@andreamolinar6883]

I read one theory that Henry would have seen it as God’s disapproval of his plans to divorce Catherine & stopped those proceedings.

[@beth7935]

Good question! I agree that Henry still would've wanted to get rid of Catherine, as she hadn't fallen pregnant for 10 years by that point, but the process of getting rid of Catherine would've gone differently, & I've no idea who his next target would've been! He _seemed_ to like marrying for "love" (or at least lust, lol), but would he have gone for another English lady, or a foreign match? The last one might've been difficult after he'd mistreated Catherine though...

[@wednesdayschild3627]

Put Henry Fitzroy as king, with Mary Tudor as wife. Although the pope probably would not allow a cosanguoius marriage between half siblings which may have set off the reformation.

[@anneboleynfiles]

It is so hard to know what he would have done. I think by that point he was intent on having a son and so probably would have found a replacement.

[@MarilynRB]

I often wondered about these two sotrylines myself. I must've somehow missed this delight from my favorite Tudor channel! Thanks for the insight, Claire! It's always a delight exploring your channel.

[@jessdelong80sbb]

I love this Q&A series. I think many of us Tudorfiles wonder how accurate TV adaptations are. Thanks for the videos, can’t wait for the next!

[@cathyeaston9431]

Great question Omar and thanks Claire for the in-depth answer!

[@theguest3389]

I really enjoy this questions that people are asking you!!! Thank You!!! Have fun and take care!!! 💐🌈💐

[@anneboleynfiles]

I'm so glad!

[@janicegaypowers3953]

Thank you so much for this enlightening and factual history of George Boleyn, Mark Smeaton and other Tudor people.

[@evermoredany]

It's possible George could've been gay or bisexual. It's possible that he wasn't too. But if we look at all the people we study in Tudor history, there are far too many for all of them to be straight.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Oh yes, there definitely were gay people, and it is indeed possible that George was bi, and that Henry VIII and any of these characters were. There's just no evidence that they were.

[@kazoolibra7322]

Thank you, clair and omar. Love including subscribers questions in the channel

[@wendychavez5348]

It really is a brilliant idea!

[@carriec9317]

Loved the video! And very good questions! I have often wondered that as well! Is that an Anne Boylen jacket? If it is I have the same one 💚

[@carriec9317]

@E M I love it! One of my favorites! I have the green one

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, it is!

[@denisehill7769]

Given the conditions of the Buggery Act of 1533, would anyone at court take the risk, even if they had the privacy, which seems unlikely? On a different note (see what I did there!), what is the music you use in your videos, it's great :-)

[@anneboleynfiles]

It's called Rui, riu, chu by Matteo Fletcha, a Catalan composer. Thank you!

[@denisehill7769]

@@anneboleynfiles Thank you very much!

[@darlenefarmer5921]

Great Questions! Love Omar's voice! I wondered if Henry VIII sounded similar to him. Thanks, Claire!

[@onemercilessming1342]

Our local PBS classical radio station plays Tallis's compositions from time to time. They are truly moving pieces, and are indicative of Tallis's talents.

[@vickyrushton1783]

Thank you. Omar asked the very questions I have been wondering about so thank you also to Omar

[@an.iron.butterfly]

HI, Maj! I enjoyed the history in these Q&A videos and I always love a photo/videobombing kitty! :D

[@wendychavez5348]

KZbin needs a kitty cat button for pet cameo likes!

[@Lyndell-P]

🇭🇲🦘 "Thank you Omar" for your questions. 👍 Of course, Claire is able to inform us all as to - True OR False? After all that is what these Q&A's are all about. GREAT concept, and always very interesting. ... As for todays information. In the mentioned TV series - Quite a leap indeed between fact and fiction! Interesting to know though, just how much of a leap it is - HUGE. However, some people like the series, and some don't. As for accuracy, I can't really understand why the writers alter the facts so much, as I think that the real facts about these real people are interesting enough to be left as they are. ... Of course, I realise the writers do it 'for ratings' but I believe the TV series (with the truth) would be just as entertaining, because so very much that DID happen is hard to believe anyway. No need therefore to alter the facts, is there? THIS is, of course, only my opinion, and everyone has there own (opinion). ... I found the questions about George, his sexuality, and THEN his relationship with his wife, Jane most interesting. ... Just because he owned and lent a book of poetry considered 'risque' maybe in Tudor times (or now) means nothing at all. These men were writers, poets and great thinkers who read (and shared) these books to better their knowledge etc. Whether they even liked the content (or not) is irrelevant. After all, we read books on all sorts of subjects, but that doesn't mean that we necessarily agree or disagree with their content. We read them out of curiosity, interest or for entertainment. .... ALSO, as for the marriage of George and Jane Boleyn, they both worked at court. Jane serving the Queen, often having to sleep at court with the other ladies of the Queen. Whilst George was busy with his work for the King, often as a diplomat in Europe or elsewhere, but definitely away from his wife for very long periods of time. Therefore, their times together (as a couple) alone, would have been brief, although they may have seen each other whilst at court attending to their duties. There is nothing at all to prove that they didn't care for eachother, as husband and wife. Nothing at all. ... YES Claire! You were very patient with Maj 🐈 today, in and out of camera view 📸 MAYBE you should see if the Tudor TV series people need a cat for cameo appearances. I'm sure Maj would love that 😸😻 .. well, just a thought ❗ GREAT VIDEO Claire 👑👍 Thank you ❤

[@jaynesouthall2103]

What good questions . Answered my own questions after watching the Tudors last night. Just spicing up the series it seemed pretty far fetched last nite. Claire what a brilliant talk. Poor George boleyn thank goodness you wrote your book to support him. No evidence at all to support their theories. Happy Easter all .

[@anneboleynfiles]

I did enjoy working on that book with Clare Cherry.

[@wendychavez5348]

That book is next on my wish list. If I ever have time to read again, that is; I have 3-1/2 jobs, one for my dad, two as essential staff in different companies, and one on hold until it's safe for a woman pushing 90 to go to church again. I'm grateful to the YT algorithm for suggesting Claire's channel to me!

[@nadiabrook7871]

INTERESTING video, Claire!! It's amazing how many myths and legends abound about historical characters isn't it??!! Dramas like "The Tudors" really help to propagate these myths, don't they??!! Thanks again for the video, Claire!! Take care, and stay safe!! XXXX Ps Hi Maj!!

[@beth7935]

Yes! Claire said people quote Philippa Gregory at her as a reference, & I couldn't believe it- then it happened to me last week! I _may_ have gone a bit sarcastic... :D

[@nadiabrook7871]

@@beth7935 I mean, don't get me wrong, Philippa Gregory is a great fiction writer, but she sure takes liberties with the facts!!

[@beth7935]

@@nadiabrook7871 Oh yeah, her Tudor books are definitely entertaining! I wanted to throw The Other Boleyn Girl at the wall for many reasons, but it was a fun read. I won't read more tho; from what I've heard I know I'd just get cross :D That's just me tho...

[@nadiabrook7871]

@@beth7935 When I do read any of her books, I'll take what I read with a MASSIVE pinch of salt!!

[@beth7935]

@@nadiabrook7871 And you have the perfect place to fact-check anything about the Tudors, at least!

[@SmartStart24]

Claire, do you have a video about the Elton (think I spelled it right) Ordinances ? It’s interesting to think about a time when the young king was surrounded by young men instead of old ones! Thanks for the great videos!

[@anneboleynfiles]

I don't think I've done one on the Eltham Ordinances, but here's an article on them - bluffkinghal.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/the-eltham-ordinances-and-its-impact-on-the-kings-court/

[@SmartStart24]

@@anneboleynfiles Thank you!!

[@Thestephouse1]

Great question! Even more interesting answer 😍

[@ariesrainbowchild]

Thank you

[@lhzook]

Apparently everyone was supposedly involved with Anne Hastings.

[@leticiagarcia9025]

Great video as always. ❤️ 🐈

[@lauramason5667]

Great insights and thank you.I would love to hear about the relationship between Anne Askew and Queen Catherine Parr. I love your lectures.

[@judymac2590]

my question is why do producers not seem to care about truth? The truth is just as fascinating, if not better than fictional dribble!! The show couldn't even get the marriage of Henry VIII's sister to King of ?Portugal when it was French king, yes??? Tallis not even showing up for Canterbury chorus until 15 YEARS after Compton's death??? Come on, people!!

[@--enyo--]

Ratings

[@beth7935]

I agree 100%, but many people are vehement that "it's just fiction & people know that!" Well, they really don't- I had someone quote the show the Spanish Princess at me as a reference just last week!- & seeing a total fabrication actually makes it harder to learn what actually happened, cos stories are such a brilliant way of learning, & the fictional version gets stuck in your brain. This is a HUGE missed opportunity! Watching Claire's vids, I realised a sorta trashy novel I read was bang-on about Elizabeth's court, so I actually had loads of facts that I won't forget cos they were in an entertaining story, & it was easy to fit new stuff into it. Yeah- if you can't find enough drama in Henry VIII's reign, your imagination is broken & you shouldn't be writing tv shows! :D

[@bennylawrence6221]

My personal favorite inaccuracy was the merging of the kings two sisters into one character

[@cassia-andor6445]

@@bennylawrence6221 A lot of characters, so it’s a bit understandable, but they were VERY different women, so they might as well have made a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde character and it would have worked just as well.

[@bennylawrence6221]

I get that part but since the Line of Tudor succession wound up passing down through Margaret queen of Scotland I thought she was kinda important

[@elanabethfariss117]

It's too bad that most people believe everything they see and hear on television. It makes me sad for the real characters, but glad that the truth is out there waiting to be revealed and it's even more interesting, thank you Claire.

[@ElizabethF2222]

Great question, Omar, and great answer, Claire, as usual! I have always wondered about whether the Tudor producers fictionalized these relationships Glad to know they're not true. Thomas Tallis' composition spem in alium is absolutely amazing. His talent for vocal harmonies was astonishing. People hearing his music in those huge cathedrals must have been in absolute awe. Do you know if Elizabeth I had any of his music in her Protestant churches?

[@marshaprice8226]

This 2-part question reinforces my dislike of historical fiction. If I am taking my time to read a book or watch a program about history, I want to learn about what really happened. I don't want what I know to be clouded by the figments of an author's imagination.

[@PocketSatan]

Thank you again for shedding Tudor light :) And seeing a puss in a video is always a massive bonus for me. Please encourage Madge to appear more often :)

[@sharoncole8249]

💖👑👑💖xx this is a good question. I wonder if anne was covering for her brother George and the men was around anne so much because of George boleyn xx

[@renshiwu305]

"The Tudors" shows William Compton, Thomas Knyvett, and Charles Brandon being peers of age with Henry VIII, but they were all at least five years older than Henry (and Compton was about a decade older). I suppose that's not as egregious as portraying a tall, fat, bald Englishman with a short, skinny, coiffured Irishman.

[@greybeardcanadian1036]

Great cameo by the cat!

[@jamesgleason9004]

Ríu Ríu Chíu, nice touch!

[@amyrat151]

Was the shared book evidence that Mark and George were friends?

[@wendychavez5348]

Surely so. Books were precious commodities--hence the labeling that "this booke is myne" signed by George, and Mark S's note that he had it for a while. Not quite like autographing a photo, maybe more like carbon one's name in a tree trunk. "George was here!" "mark, too".

[@amyrat151]

@@wendychavez5348 Hmm, I wonder how close they were. Obviously Mark could read, or he wouldn't have had the book but how well educated was he? Did George, who was an intellectual enjoy maybe teaching Mark to think more?

[@flashread]

Cat cameo 😻

[@Julie31168]

The part of the speech from George Boleyn that you relayed was so descriptive in his guilt at being a sinner, could it not have been taken by people as admitting that the chargers against him were true? In the rest of his speech did he not at least deny the charges of incest with his sister to the crowd?

[@MarilynRB]

Also, did anyone else notice that Thomas Tallis is completely DROPPED after he get married? Maybe they considered his tale finished, but we never see him again even while in a chapel. Hmmmm. I admit it; I rather enjoyed 'The Tudors", but one the part that always sticks in my throat (thanks for that line, Queen Victoria) is the suicide of Thomas Wolsey. Grrr!

[@RowantheHearingAssistDog]

Love the cat.

[@petah-peoplefortheendlesst4668]

The Tudors (The Showtime Series) has done so much irreparable damage to people's knowledge of this period. Mainly, I see so many people wrongly attributing events and activities of Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk to Suffolk (Charles Brandon). The other big misconception of people on AB Files seem to also think that Thomas Cromwell was Lord High Chancellor. Personally, the breaking point for me was the show writing Will Brereton as a Lee Harvey Oswald type character who is hired by the pope to assassinate Anne Boleyn. There had been so many major historical inaccuracies but this just added absolute insult to injury. Strongly recommend anybody reading this to not waste time watching that show. Wolf Hall, A Man for All Seasons and The Six Wives of henry VIII are the best Tudor dramas for accuracy.

[@--enyo--]

Wow, that book must have been written by an early ancestor of the red piller.

[@anneboleynfiles]

The satire? Yes!

[@beth7935]

Brilliant! Keep bashing myths, Claire- we love it! :) Of course it'd be fine if any of these men _were_ in relationships, but history is about what actually happened, as far as we can tell from the records, & in this case the records are telling us... nothing. Using the fact that George & Jane had no children to prove that George was gay is even more ridiculous when people don't see Edward II's 4 children as proof that he _wasn't_ gay.

[@reppepper]

Hi Kitty!

[@censusgary]

Lovely theories, lacking only any evidence at all.

[@cecillebarone9252]

So what if there was?

[@anneboleynfiles]

So what, indeed, but there's just no evidence that they were, it's fictional.

[@reppepper]

Riu riu chiu.

[@wednesdayschild3627]

Nope

[@rhyswood8257]

Could have been true could have been false. Not something you would admit to back then given the homophobic views back then. So evidence is irrelevant.