What Are Saints?

[@brickonator]

As someone raised in catholicism I really appreciate how you went into the original logic and cultural context of saints and relics as well as the legitimate concerns of later movements (Protestants, non-religious, etc). Too many people will act reductively and treat saints as mere idolatry or the like. Likewise there are some people who DO treat them too idol-like and lose sight on the idea of intercession.

[@helenr4300]

And when he spoke about the Bible becoming the more central focus - my thought was about how for some fundamentalists that has become an idolatry of its own.

[@merthsoft]

Great work, as always! I especially love your evolution of yahweh's worship chart. Your charts and timelines are absolutely wonderful.

[@73honda350]

Ark episode should be facinating. It's such an interesting transitional step between polytheistic Paleolithic/bronze age gods demonstrating a physical presence and associated idolatry, and the evolution to purely spiritual monotheism.

[@Facerip]

I like big boats and i cannot lie!

[@73honda350]

@Facerip Different ark. Ark of the covenant, not the zoo boat.

[@billyhw99]

Excellent point that Protestantism led to Deism led to Agnosticism led to Atheism.

[@hantms]

it does for some of the most vocal/militant atheists, many of whom suffered child religious abuse. But that's not the only group I'm sure; there are also atheists who simply never believed because it wasn't hammered into them in childhood and then in later life never found that any of it made sense or was of any descernabile benefit or reality to them. Or people who were Catholic, say in Ireland, but got away from that due to their rigid views on things like divorce and abortion.

[@PamelaContiGlass]

I commented during the live streaming, but I forgot to highlight a linguistic and cultural oddity that comes from the Catholic beatification and sainthood process. We use the term "Devil's Advocate" quite liberally in common speech, but that used to be an actual role in the beatification process of saints. Quoting from the handy AI answer: "The Devil's Advocate, or advocatus diaboli, was a former Catholic Church official who argued against the canonization of a candidate. The official title for this role was Promoter of the Faith, or promotor fidei". If memory serves, Christopher Hitchens was hired as "advocatus diaboli" in the beatification of Mother Theresa. If I recall, that didn't go too well and may be one of the reasons why that role has diminished in importance lately. I'd have to look into it one day. One last thing, actually two: We need to promote Centre Place more and Facebook of late has been a pit of hell. I lost my account for no reason at all (I rarely, if ever, posted and I certainly did not "violate their TOS" as they claim). Maybe CP should maintain a more accessible presence on Reddit or other similar place. I see so much crap online with millions of views and it disturbs me that CP has so little traction. I also think that CP should make an effort to separate the lectures from the church functions. Maybe John could go on some of the more popular podcasts, like Mythvision and others, and I am sure viewership would increase (as well as donations). Especially in these times, genuine and sincere voices like CP are sorely needed. I am an atheist, I have always been one, even as a child growing up in the Catholic church. I honestly believed that everyone was like me and they only went to church to fool me, somehow. I was a kid, but when I did my First Communion catechism, I asked a few too many questions and I was clearly "persona non grata". My Communion was purely a ritual for my family and nothing else. My parents were as secular as I was (except for my mother, the proto-New Age, ancient aliens priestess and Padre Pio aficionado - by the way John, it's pronounced PIO like PIOUS. Take the "us" away and you got it) Second, for some reason in the comment section I show up with my wife's Etsy Shop name: PamelaContiGlass, which is the channel I created in order to post her Etsy products (one day), while in the livestream my handle is "Marco Conti". Yes, the guy that was born and raised in Rome and commented about the Bible being much less important than the saints in Roman and Italian Catholicism in general. In fact, when I was growing up I didn't know anyone that owned a bible, and I remember attending Latin mass (some churches were late to switching to Italian, apparently). Also, for a while I worked for a heating company that delivered heating oil to many of the most notable churches, convents and monasteries in Rome. I think many of the people that paid the bills were hungry for outside contact, because whenever I showed up to pickup a check, a 2 minutes process, they would make me wait, serve tea and little cakes and it usually would take me at least 30 minutes of chit chat before I was allowed to depart. One of my best memories were my monthly "meetings" with the "Suora Priora" (the head nun) of the Trinita Dei Monti monastery (the one right above the Spanish Steps). They had a fantastic portico, beautiful flowers and she was smart and witty. Nothing like the terrible nuns that run the preschool and elementary school I attended when I was little and that would punish us by spraying DDT on us. I remember her (and many other like her) fondly. Unlike my catechism teachers, I had questions and they did their best to answer me, rather than lock me in a room as punishment because I was curious (I guess it would also have been hard for them to explain to my employer why they kidnapped me). Anyway, as usual great job and I am looking forward to the upcoming lectures. I hope to catch at least one of them live.

[@adorabellaperfecta3513]

Watching the relics during this lecture (the arms & the heart esp) seemed a bit strange, but then when confronted with these in real life, it does have an effect on me. It’s been decades since I visited the church housing some composers skull, but I still tell people about it.

[@neocount6397]

John is the man!

[@hantms]

@HamerToronto -- One topic I didn't see included (or maybe I missed it) was my understanding that in the early church that was trying to win over people from pagan religions, saints could fill in for having dedicated gods for certain things. When people are used to pray to a god of wine making, of war, of smooth sailing, of fertility, love and romance and so on then they potentially lose this in monotheism. Saints can fill that role, having saints for all those things.

[@fastballflakes5385]

Another wonderful Hamercopia of Knowledge tonight. Thank you again for the fantastic lecture and everything you do. I give this one 5 bags of popcorn, 2 sodas and an ear necklace.

[@jovenintensa]

It always puts a smile on my face when I read "hamercopia" in your comments each week.

[@GroundThing]

In the context of some of your mentions of protestantism and saints, I can speak from a Lutheran perspective, and at least from my tradition, that the understanding is that all believers are simultaneously sinners and saints, and for especially venerable cases, t would not be surprising to find a calendar of upcoming saints days in a Lutheran bulletin, though the perspective on such saints is closer to your speculation on the anglican view of saints: that they are emulatable examples of Christian life, but have no intercessory power (and I believe the doctrine, at least so far as I remember from discussions with a seminary professor, is closer to the ideas of Pope John XXII, that all the dead remain dead until the second coming, with the Resurrection of the Body)

[@winstonbarquez9538]

The Christian prayers for the intercession of saints were first seen in the catacombs.

[@DonWaggoner-cv2tu]

Saints aproach us from the sky,they look just like us!

[@FireEverLiving]

The last time *I* cut out some kid's heart to appease my dark gods, everyone freaked out! But Catholics can do it whenever they want??? Unfair!

[@helenr4300]

About half way through the lecture and it strikes me as interesting that among the Christian traditions that would totally reject the role of the saints there are approaches that are not so far different. Maybe not to the dead - but the idea of seeking intercession from certain 'special' christians, as if their prayers will be more effective is very clear, especially when seeking miracles. Think of the 'healing rallies' - bring your sick to this anointed person and find your miracle. Pay your Seed Faith (Indulgences) and God will bring you prosperity. The draw to physically attend a place of 'revival' to 'catch the Spirit'. And regarding the dead 'saints' we have modern relics - British Methodists bring out 'Mr Wesley's Bible' at the appointing of each annual President of Conference. Other places are named in memory of Famous Christians, even very recently passed individuals. And in certain small corners of Protestant Christianity the seeking to get some blessing or calling from those considered blessed or anointed - not just learning from their stories; but to the extent of 'grave soaking'!

[@adedaporh]

2:07:32 I'm shocked that he didn't start with this one. The jewish veneration of the holy ones since the Maccabees influenced the early church

[@kernowalbion4142]

Catholic here. Really enjoy presentations. If you want intercession for that lost wallet it is St Anthony you need. The Saint that got an axe through the bible and his head is the Anglo-Saxon Saint St Boniface of Crediton Devon, missionary to the Germanic tribes. I think he's Germany's Patron Saint. He's certainly venerated there n 2019 Devon County Council, with the support of the Anglican Diocese of Exeter, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Plymouth, and local Devon leaders of the Orthodox, Methodist, and Congregational churches, officially recognised St Boniface as the Patron Saint of Devon. In Cornwall it St Piran patron saint of tin miners. He's thought to be Irish and he is a saint because some Irish that didn't like his preaching of the gospel tied a millstone round his neck and threw him in the sea. Miraculously despite this he floated all the way to the north Cornwall shore. 😄

[@douglaslegvold9215]

A nice comment for the algorithm.

[@levitateme]

i love the charts

[@DrWolves]

Was Valentinus a saint?

[@cpthardluck]

Taking back sainthood from the Catholics would be kind of a flex.

[@BPTacticalSovereignty]

Saul had the word Christian, it was used in Acts. He also persecuted followers of the Way in Acts, not Christians. Just read the Bible.

[@promark5317]

It's Hamertime

[@calvinmason1321]

Saints are Israelites.....or those Gentiles that have been grafted in

[@undercoverbrother67]

50:28 Let me tell you a couple of three centuries 🤌

[@davethebrahman9870]

Saints, noun: Dead sinners revised and exited.

[@andymcintosh3963]

I heard that st Christopher was removed because there was too little reason to believe he was real and was to like the story of Jason of the argonauls

[@shanevanc]

What are saints? Why they're just the bestest behaved boys and girls there ever was. And, what do they get for all that good behavior they suffer because of us ( sorry, THOSE) sinners. And they are made examples for us to pretend to follow. But, WHAT ARE SINNERS?

[@andymcintosh3963]

Catholic have the phase communion of the saints

[@peternee2958]

What's with all the commercials now? You never used to do that. I thought you were receiving plenty of support and contributions.

[@HamerToronto]

KZbin puts those in automatically and we have to manually take them out. Normally Leandro does this right away, but he's in Argentina and he's working on it asap.

[@peternee2958]

​@@HamerTorontoOh, thank you very much for getting back to me. That makes sense and it's a shame. I very much enjoy your videos and the commercials are disrupting. Thanks for everything you do. Hope you have a great day!

[@hantms]

This is how KZbin makes money. Storing videos and transmitting them all over the world thousands of times is not free. That money comes either from users who are Premium subscribers, or from ads. Some of the ad money also goes to the content creators, but for that to be a significant amount the channel needs to be much bigger than the current size. (Although it has grown tremendously in the past years, for good reason.)

[@adorabellaperfecta3513]

Wow, I had no idea that Leandro went in manually removed the commercials. Well, thank you to Leandro for doing so.

[@konstantinNeo]

The theologies that humanity have been developing are in a very sad state, and its not like because it is so difficult but even with teachers such as Jesus the actual transmition of the "knowledge" to the people was very poor. I have no doubt that Jesus had an experience of samadhi at a very early age, he entered in a state of self contemplation and it must have been very profound, he could not find explanation to his experience whithin judaism, but the traveling traders from the silk road could point him to the direction of the south east asia where such phenomenon ocurred more often. Jesus must have traveled to Nepal region and have learned quite a lot in there about his experience. It is very sad that "the way" dint pick up as a movement and persecution did not aid in comprehending the teachings of Jesus. I am sure if he remained in asia and shared his knowledge there it would be very different, the soil for non dualistic ideas was much more fertile in asia. Christianity in all its various forms is a Jesus flavored product, inert and mainly ritualistic. Constantine's used the emerging religion go gain political ground, the consolidation of a state church instead of ending the persecution of christians made it a state affair. The persecution never ended. The "tolerance" act of 311 was just bluff, once the state and religion became one and the "creed etched in stone" before they even understood the actual teachings of Jesus, the persecution resumed under a new "image", how they were dealing with "heretics". The persecution continued and in 1244 the inquisition burns alive 200+ perfecti, very christian thing to do indeed. Methodically most of the actual followers of Jesus were eliminated thus eliminating the very meaning of christianity. The "christian ritual" of today has almost nothing of the teachings of Jesus, its disfunctional and inert.

[@atlasheyzal9178]

What makes a saint? Well, if the Romans once killed them and later rose them to god level is a start it seems lol

[@TrumanTheGrayMerchant]

Hi, I love your work but would like to advocate against incorporating AI generated artwork into it. In addition to the sustainability and plagiarism concerns, I personally find an individual artist's perception of the divine to be infinitely more meaningful than a machine's uncanny valley amalgamation.

[@aaronbaca]

It takes something this awful for me to go from loving this church to unsubscribed from this channel and throwing my faith right out. Done ✅ 👎 Not even going to have my son pray anymore. What a joke of an organization the church is. It should be on the hunt for sanctity and not dismissal of anything that may be holy until decades after the fact. The Vatican honestly has evil policy. Time for a switch from this crap.

[@BagzAndPresident]

What did he say that made you so angry

[@promark5317]

Another anti-catholic yokel nutter

[@adorabellaperfecta3513]

I don’t understand this at all. It seemed like another wonderful hamercopia to me. Just like all the others. Oh well, kids don’t need to be praying so much anyways.

[@vb8801]

Learning about saints made you throw you faith right out? 😂 drama llama

[@dantallman5345]

Another interesting Centre Place lecture. This prompted me to actually read The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity. I honestly don’t know how anyone can read this as other than legend built on a little fact, particularly the account of the actual “contest” with the animals. The Wikipedia article said that scholars generally think that Perpetua wrote the words attributed to her and I am a bit baffled as to why. Possible? Sure. But likely is another matter.