What Did Donald Trump Learn from Roy Cohn? | Conversations with Jim Zirin

In 1978, gifted writer Ken Auletta profiled for Esquire the pugnacious attorney Roy Cohn whom he called the "personification of evil." Cohn died in 1986 discredited and disbarred. Donald Trump was a Cohn client and close friend. He called Cohn his mentor. Ken Auletta tells Jim Zirin some of the dirty tricks Trump learned at the feet of the master of the smear.
Taped: 03/06/2018
Conversations with Jim Zirin is a talk show designed to illuminate the news by taking the time required to understand and interpret national and world events. The series features high-profile guests from the worlds of politics, law, business, foreign relations, national security, counterterrorism, media, lifestyles, literature, the arts, and the military. The series is hosted by Jim Zirin, a leading litigator and contributor to major publications including Forbes, the Daily Beast, the Nation, The Times of London and the Los Angeles Times. He is the author of two books, The Mother Court -- Tales of Cases That Mattered in America's Greatest Trial Court, and Supremely Partisan-How Raw Politics Tips the Scales in the United States Supreme Court. Jim served as an Assistant United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York in the Criminal Division under the legendary Robert M. Morgenthau.
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[@robertpoen5383]

How did Cohn make a comeback from disgrace? "Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king." B. Dylan

[@kamuelalee]

Another gem from Bob!

[@OZ88]

This is a universal law from the beginning of time.

[@einsteindisguisedasrobinho717]

OMG...one of my favorite lines..love seeing other BOB fans online.....

[@dk6173]

Tell that to Bernie Madoff. Ha!

[@rickb3650]

@@dk6173 Bernie made the fatal mistake of stealing a lot from those with too much.

[@majkus]

"You never apologize…attack, attack, attack." Trump in the same playbook while under indictment.

[@rcpilot179]

Always claim victory. Especially when defeated.

[@brendab.5111]

Cohn was the father figure trump never had. Seems trump would gravitate towards someone who would stand up and defend him no matter what. Trump also has a striking resemblance to David Shine.

[@mw3516405]

Exactly!!!

[@poetry7260]

But how did it end for Cohn? Disgraced , disbarred, and diseased. These fools never learn.

[@desertportal353]

Disbarred, died of aids, trump deserted him. It is in the interview.

[@poetry7260]

@@desertportal353 Funny, he is acting just like him from what I can determine about Cohn's character from old interviews. The "lie and deny" and "never apologize" is part of Trump's MO exemplified on a daily basis. No desertion there. I could care less what is said in this interview.

[@tulliusagrippa5752]

Mason Albert Hahahaha!! So, where is your evidence? It sounds like you are consumed by hatred. That’s not a good way to be, if for no better reason than that it will destroy your health.

[@poetry7260]

@Mason Albert Pipelines? Everybody wonders why he abandoned the Kurds. Tell me it isn't for profit for himself because it is not for the interest of the US We need some divine justice here because we are not getting any other kind.

[@poetry7260]

@@tulliusagrippa5752 Hate the acts not the people. Hate the corruption. Hate what is destroying America. You trolls are part of it. Slow train comin....

[@wsegen]

great show, love the low key. good info without foaming at the mouth. thanks.

[@jasonfallon4968]

This form of Comunication seems to be a dying thing. George Carlin “CTD”

[@carolzerbarini7659]

Yes!! Low key, reasonable and rational discourse without the histrionic “foaming at the mouth” rhetoric to pump up ratings. Thank you

[@coffeeNTrees]

Stephen Miller is Roy Cohn reincarnate.

[@katydid1955]

"Manipulation of the media" such an appropriate statement for today. Journalism is dead.

[@italythroughmyeyes]

We would not know what's going on without them.

[@Brett_S_420]

It is the ease of seeming legitimacy of people who have no journalism training or ethics that make it appear that way to people when the truth is that the real journalists are needed more than ever. If a "reporter" can make patently false claims or misrepresent or invent sources and not be fired for it, they are not true journalists. Just because there are liars does not mean their all liars. Wise discernment is key.

[@m.entera3196]

Journalism is all over the place.

[@mysterymeat586]

A light bulb just lit up in my head. What happened to Giuliani once a respected prosecutor, lawyer, mayor, presidential candidate. Hooks up with Trump and becomes a wannabe personification of Cohn.

[@carolinemaybe]

Mystery Meat in the words of Rick Wilson, “Everything trump touches dies”.

[@karelglasner2673]

No that's FJB where everything he touches dies 😆 just ask hunter.

[@dmitryvorobev4531]

What a revelation 🎉

[@2011littleguy]

The interviewer is fantastic.

[@williamevans9426]

Does anyone else think Ken Auletta bears a close resemblance to Gore Vidal?

[@jaqatlantic]

A little.

[@ghostfrequency6920]

i often said that as well since i like ken auletta as a writer.

[@jeffseaman9087]

Absolutely

[@corryjookit7818]

A bit, but Gore Vidal is more handsome.

[@briankoski2532]

I see Bob Barker..

[@mns8732]

I wish the, major media outlets would re broadcast this video because it explains so much of what's odd about Trump.

[@velapalim6281]

Fascinating Thanks

[@desertportal353]

Wow, thank you for this - the most revealing and accurate profile of trump I have heard.

[@kamuelalee]

Glad Trump does not have a killer executioner any longer! Heads would be rolling.

[@shakdidagalimal]

TDS is a terrible thing, wasting a libturd mind on it is the NEW MCCARTHYISM.

[@Thunderchief-rt3gt]

A joke on The Simpsons went "How did you get that suit so cheap" "I got it off the dead body of Roy Cohn."

[@kamuelalee]

Good joke!

[@calvinburr1248]

This video should be required viewing for all Trump supporters, especially the ones who are Evangelical Christians.

[@calvinburr1248]

@betty davis It's a curious fact that those who are the most fanatically religious are often those who are most guilty of the deadliest of all sins...pride.

[@mattja52]

When you are ignorant, nonsense makes perfect sense. I could not understand their fanaticism, now I do! They are so willing to go to hell, not he. I can imagine him saying, in a closed room unbugged, these are the stupidest people on earth, I have more respect for sheep!

[@ciri1993]

They are (evil)vangelicals

[@teslanikola8558]

Trump isn’t what the evangelicals love and adore... it’s his view on enforcing the government to protect and maintain Christianity. You idiot

[@corryjookit7818]

@@mattja52 He has said it. He said that his supporters were white trash and so probably was he. "The only difference between them and me is money. I've got the money."

[@iddhisbing8092]

Good stuff. Great to see Auletta.

[@banksiasong]

Excellent interview, Mr Ken Auletta was a most articulate and honest interviewee, and I now have a better informed view of the evil of Trump, and his mentor Roy Cohn.

[@mikecavallaro466]

Most people are evidently just a little too stupid to see that Biden and Trump are just clowns in the same circus, part of the show. Evil? Only retarded children believe in good guys and bad guys, black or white, us vs them.........avoids having to actually think about anything.

[@nancysanders2398]

Mike Cavallaro Yes," Powers that Be," run,control economic status of the World.

[@brendab.5111]

@@nancysanders2398 This is the world we have inherited, take it or leave it.

[@AncienRegimeStudios]

Quality You Tube. Thanks for sharing this.

[@lha3954]

He stopped talking to Roy when he got sick they said it really bothered Roy

[@jonboz2577]

You reap what you sow.

[@markmaxner4060]

A great informative video. TY for posting it

[@johndoe4724]

This has far too few views.

[@TRRyan]

Maybe purposely so. It presents people of intelligence. Don't wanna get people thinking now, do we?

[@user-sm6xu4qj8h]

In all honesty, you are describing modern politics.

[@cody7378]

All i can say is wow everybody should watch this

[@lenovovo]

Ken Auletta looks a lot like Gore Vidal!!! Astonishing!!!

[@tracylemme1375]

The best thing that could happen is for the press to ignore the Turdmph

[@walcoman]

I've never seen a human being who had eyes more cold and completely dead, not even on a corpse. He was pure manipulative, criminality and evil all rolled into one creepy little SLUG LAWYER. 😮

[@jamesbradford2564]

When he talks about Cohn he is describing trump😩😩😩

[@wendelinw.deloach5084]

2 late now aint it? NYer's always knew trump was a dangerous man connected to Cohn.

[@cabowabo1963]

Morton Downey Jr. Did a show on Cohn after his death. OMG

[@LIZARD.KILLER..]

How to secretly fund child trafficking and blackmail operations.

[@blacksmiley22]

11:32 the shoutout to stephen colbert is so chef's kiss

[@varrick1226]

Some win, some gripe, some sulk!

[@brocktonma.1816]

Sounds like Cohen was hated unless you needed him.

[@billsmith1962]

Well, God knows the truth is a hard thing for the press.

[@imadumas2]

Richard lewis is a pretty good interviewer...

[@ozohirogi2577]

So it is true about the company one keeps

[@jkryanspark]

Roy Cohn; forever tethered to Juan Peron, Toscanini, and Dacron.

[@ragged_claws_scuttling]

Jeff Karas Billy. Nice. And spot on.

[@godfreycarmichael]

Thank god people like Roy Cohn and Donald Trump are relatively rare. Or are they?

[@tulliusagrippa5752]

Interesting.

[@johnpro2847]

Don-the-Con is a perfectionists at sleight of hand ...he will convince his audience that black is white and his audience are often convinced he is right ...the art of the con.

[@n.a.mcintosh4697]

this aged well for The Donald....

[@user-ni7ue3cw3t]

Excellent interviews start with a fascinating topic and an excellent interviewee - both here in spades in this very good summary of the slime that has wound its way through American public life for decades via this repellent lowlife, tutor to the author of America's present misery.

[@dk6173]

A great interview. 2:43 It's like Trump was made for this pandemic.

[@meandmymonkey5137]

Looks like. Gore Vidal.

[@7karlheinz]

I have that Eames/Herman Miller table!!!

[@johnchambers2996]

Real demotion; last week Don Trump was Adolph Hitler, now he's only Roy Cohn.

[@frankrichards3089]

Combo of both really

[@johnchambers2996]

@@frankrichards3089 Oh pleeeeze. Read something or simply learn how to read.

[@idicula1979]

He was one of those people that was so anti gay he was actualily gay. He was a self loathing, and history is littered with figures that where so self loathing that they to out their perceived blemish on the other.

[@sherrillsturm7240]

Ohmygod! Cohn lives. He's taken over the bodily form of DJT.

[@newyawkgiants5877]

Guliani, lawyers. Turd has the $ to find the loophole. He actually said they have a thing called the loophole. That's a defense attorney's job. "Unfortunately I have a lot of them." Well lawyers for any and everything to get around. That's what he's doing to our Constitution. A piece of paper, a memo blocked Mueller from indicting. Now hopefully the Chief Justice asks Mueller if he would have indicted if was allowed.

[@jesushatesyoutoo]

Fortunately Trump is far too stupid and lazy to be a Cohen. Trump may have learned a few things from Cohen. I have taught my dog a few tricks as well.

[@gregparrott]

jesushatesyoutoo I assume you meant to say 'Cohn', not Cohen (who is now in jail)

[@sjr7822]

Who Created Donald Trump? Where’s My Roy Cohn? Has the Answer BY JULIE MILLER SOCIETY Where’s My Roy Cohn? Digs into One of the 20th Century’s Most Evil Men The film, which premieres today at the Sundance Film Festival, explores the life and times of Roy Cohn-and his mentorship of an upstart mogul named Donald Trump. BY MARY ALICE MILLER JANUARY 25, 2019

[@tulliusagrippa5752]

Mason Albert An impressively objective view. Well done. You should apply for a job at CNN.

[@lizmarron3999]

Excellent film! Every MAGA nut job ought to watch it!!

[@lorenzomagazzeni5425]

What did he learn - NOTHING

[@chadbennett7873]

The devi aspires to be Roy Cohn.

[@suetilton8456]

Take him back..you keep him

[@davidralphs4]

Did Roy frequent the gay baths in New York?

[@jerryware1970]

Obama did in Chicago.

[@lizmarron3999]

Absolutely did, he later died of AIDS.

[@dr.debbiewilliams]

I never met Roy Cohn.

[@fuzzyflick9905]

Used to Has been So yesterday 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@winterlandboy]

That grey haired guy really looks like Gore Vidal

[@chalinofalcone871]

"Then we must deprive him of the seeming.** For if he is going to be thought just he will have honours and gifts because of that esteem. We cannot be sure in that case whether he is just for justice' sake or for the sake of the gifts and the honours. So we must strip him bare of everything but justice and make his state the opposite of his imagined counterpart.* Though doing no wrong he must have the repute of the greatest injustice, so that he may be put to the test as regards justice through not softening because of ill repute and the consequences thereof. But let him hold on his course unchangeable even unto death, seeming all his life to be unjust though being just, that so, both men attaining to the limit, the one of injustice, the other of justice, we may pass judgement which of the two is the happier.".... For the height of injustice * is to seem just without being so. To the perfectly unjust man, then, we must assign perfect injustice and withhold nothing of it, but we must allow him, while committing the greatest Wrongs, to have secured for himself the greatest reputation for justice; and if he does happen to trip,*' we must concede to him the power to correct his mistakes by his ability to speak persuasively if any of his misdeeds come to light, and when force is needed, to employ force by reason of his manly spirit and vigour and his provision of friends and money ; and when we have set up an unjust man of this character, our theory must set the just man at his side-a simple and noble man, who, in the phrase of Aeschylus, does not wish to seem but be good.... We must tell it, then ; and even if my language is somewhat rude and brutal,'' you must not suppose, Socrates, that it is I who speak thus, but those who commend injustice above justice. What they will say is this : that such being his disposition the just man -will have to endure the lash, the rack, chains, the branding-iron in his eyes, and finally, after every extremity of suffering, he will be crucified,*' and so will learn his lesson that not to be but to seem just is what we ought to desire." [The Republic, Plato, Book 2]

[@alimay1011]

Great interview but whoever wrote the subtitles should be out of a job

[@calisuds9830]

Isnt roger stone bisexual?

[@lizmarron3999]

Indeed he is.

[@chalinofalcone871]

"How Jewish piety reacted to this sacrifice can be seen from the following Talmudic legend: " 'And I,' cried Abraham, 'swear that I will not go down from the altar until you have heard me. When you commanded me to sacrifice my son Isaac you offended against your word, "in Isaac shall your descendants be named." So if ever my descendants offend against you, and you wish to punish them, then remember that you too are not without fault, and forgive them.' 'Very well, then,' replied the Lord, 'there behind you is a ram caught in the thicket with his horns. Offer up that instead of your son Isaac. And if ever your descendants sin against me, and I sit in judgement over therm on New Year's Day, let them blow the horn of a ram, that I may remember my words, and temper justice with mercy.'" (*Jakob Frommer and Manuel Schnitzer, Legenden aus dem Talmud, Berlin, 1922, p. 34f.) [*Noted added] [Psyche & Symbol, Carl Jung, 1958, Ch. 4 :Transformation Symbolism In The Mass, Sec. II. The Psychological Meaning of Sacrifice; d) The Archetype of Sacrifice]

[@ArchieThomas3seesea]

Barbara Walters dated US Senator Edward Brooke.

[@vestibulate]

Archie Thomas Barbara Walters would have dated a door knob.

[@Dr.Pepper001]

​@@vestibulate -- Amen! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Dnn411]

Trumps idol, Roy Cohn. 🤡🚌🤮

[@shakdidagalimal]

Zirin : " But I loved the fact that I made him suffer ." 8:19 Then he smiles.

[@alimay1011]

Yeah great quote but it's Auletta, the profile writer being interviewed, who says that. Zirin is the interviewer

[@luke1730]

Heresay

[@Cinepobrefilmfestival]

ratting on your friends may not matter to the rest of us..... 2021, amen.

[@svjim1]

Funny no mention that McCarthy was friends with the Kennedy's and RFK worked on the committee with McCarthy and Cohn. Bobby went to McCarthy's funeral.

[@Danny-bd1ch]

WhataboutISM!!!!!!

[@MurrayRide]

I don't see how that is relevant to a Roy Cohn video.

[@svjim1]

@@MurrayRide he worked with McCarthy.

[@subcitizen2012]

Despicable guilt by association. Someone should've shot them...

[@jillsmcfarland2001]

Travistock

[@weebgrinder]

Tavistock. They aren't what they're cracked up to be though. Just an oddball psychology think tank research outfit. Focus on social "science".

[@markreynolds1112]

lol u can see an evil glee in the interviewers eye as he asks and listens about all these diffrnt power brokers executing power moves.

[@harryfire411]

9:10 what about Barbara Walters? I heard Barbara Walters was actually a transgendered male to female small Jewish man anyway Barbara Walters father ran a gay bar?

[@ingriddubbel8468]

Aren't you embarrassed to write such nonsense?

[@harryfire411]

@@ingriddubbel8468 yes it does sound silly but that's what makes it really creepy and they can pull this stuff off just takes a lot of makeup and hormones and maybe rhinoplasty and Chin implant

[@jerryware1970]

It’s a widespread rumor. Like Richard Gere and the gerbils

[@luke1730]

Russians are not mafia can’t be mafia are Italian that’s like saying you saw a black Chinese

[@dudshumane]

Ugh.

[@gilgalvan4544]

Sometimes the guest, Ken Auletta, almost speaks in a very low spft voice.

[@michellec1866]

Why everyone was obsessed with whether Cohn was gay?

[@blindfreddy9157]

I've heard that he had a preference for underage blond boys.

[@ciri1993]

This goes to Trump friends being sexual predators and pedophiles.

[@ingriddubbel8468]

Because he was outwardly, anti-gay.

[@brendab.5111]

Because Cohn persecuted gay men during the McCarthy hearings.

[@ningal135]

Because he BLACKMAILED America’s closeted elite. That’s where he got his power from.

[@GP-qn5sx]

Trump germofobe ????? Robbish did you see him remove a hair from french president shouler

[@frankrichards3089]

He was always a germophobeb among other phobes..lol

[@JAYDUB1279]

How to win

[@redskins17084]

Used to write for the New Yorker we know where this conversation is going good Lord these liberals are everywhere so sad

[@terry4137]

Another hit job! GFY

[@janwarriner6554]

The comments may be true but you’re adlibbing. Fiction not fact.

[@poetry7260]

That may be coming soon.

[@janwarriner6554]

Poe try You may want to update yourself with the news.

[@poetry7260]

Which news?

[@jeffhughes9120]

Claim anything you want, just like these two men are doing?

[@idleobserver7211]

Interesting that this fellow finds pleasure in punishing his target. Wonderful guy whose credibility is beyond question. Everyone finds punitive journalism virtuous, right?

[@relaxingporknob8737]

Cohn was one the most evil people in American history. Good job sympathizing with him.

[@brendab.5111]

@@relaxingporknob8737 Even the devil has his sympathizers. Convicted murderers and felons in jail get loads of marriage proposals and fans. “The human heart. Who can know it?”

[@veritasvincit2251]

Auletta was asked for his opinion. He didn't publish it, he answered questions. Responding to questions during an interview needn't necessarily meet a standard of journalism, and no one is claiming virtue. Auletta's opinion is based on considerable first-hand knowledge of Trump and Cohn, and both men have/had extensive, well-documented, and public patterns of the behaviors and attitudes described above. Further, Auletta has an extraordinary record of excellent reporting, as published over decades in legacy periodicals of great quality, and which employ real fact-checkers. If some equate Auletta's highly-credible opinions as punitive journalism, well, go to 1:12 and listen carefully.

[@TheIamthefogg]

Dump the trump

[@chodeshadar18]

This should not be construed as a blemish on the Republican or conservative side. Remember that Obama learned from Saul Alinsky.

[@pappywolf9587]

As long as Trump fights for less government regulation, the 2nd amendment, lower taxes, and stays vigilant against enemies both foreign and domestic, HE'S MY MAN.

[@brendab.5111]

Lower taxes for the rich (like himself) not for the everyday working class hero. He is clever at hoodwinking “the people.” I’ll give him that.

[@subcitizen2012]

Sometimes government regulation is necessary. Not having it at all would make for anarchism. The 2nd amendment is 100% unthreatened; there will never be a super majority of anti 2nd amendment to ever overwrite that amendment. Taxes are necessary, pay them, and our taxes are along the lowest in the developed world. They've been cutting taxes for 60 years, how much lower can it go if we don't have the money to pay for roads, bridges, hospitals, your mother's prescriptions? Trump never stood against foreign adversaries, he took every chance he could to shake hands with China's, Russian and north Korea's for publicity, and those tariffs didn't help anyone or bring jobs back, it just increased the cost of goods and inflation - if you love capitalism then stop messing with it. Those blacks and anti fascists aren't domestic enemies, those are your fellow American citizens with the same rights as you do, and you are advocating for the state to persecute them...

[@acohen1980]

more TDS.....

[@danidro3720]

love media hate

[@njosborne6152]

Wait a minute, Obama HAS Only 8 years as POTUS out of 10? By My Count he’s got 2 more years‼️ Please, take them NOW‼️‼️ Do that Uniting thing again‼️ AND 👉🏽 We cannot wait‼️ My dad would have said to Today’s republicans, “You, fellas, have shot your wad. Better sit down!”

[@gregparrott]

Given that a presidential term last for four years, I have no idea where your '10 year' idea came from.

[@njosborne6152]

Gregory Parrott It’s a fact‼️ A president can serve up to 10 years. 👉🏽 Obama only served 8.

[@joshgordon8369]

@@gregparrott it's ten years total to the constitution. LBJ could have run again in 68 because he served a 1year and 2 months left from the Kennedy administration. He would have been president for over 9 years. Ford, on the other hand, had he won election in 76, would not have been able to run again in 80. Ford served over 2 years of Nixon's term. So had he won 76 an additional term in 80 would have placed Ford over the 10 year rule

[@gregparrott]

josh gordon I had not heard of this10 year limitation on assuming the presidency mid term. Thanks for the explanation

[@njosborne6152]

Gregory Parrott I’m really old😎 Good luck my friend 👍 It’s your world now🤟🏾

[@richardhodge5964]

Real classy to trash a man who gave you access to himself after he has died. Speaks volumes about your own character.

[@Steevee14]

How is telling the truth about someone "trashing" that person? Cohn was well aware that Auletta was a journalist.

[@Rya_N33]

This dude is a liar

[@frankjtaylor1098]

Why do you say that? You must also believe DJT never lies.

[@spope75]

TRUMP 2020

[@beaglethecutestdoglula6716]

Idiot

[@truthseeker7001]

After tearing apart the USA for his own egocentric benefit at the cost of national stability and international ridicule, of damaging the economy and then lying to claim a false victory, after pouring the gasoline of division, hatred, paranoia and lies on the currently tearing fabric of American society and setting fire to it to light his cigar - how can you still stand behind him? There has to be rationality, empathy and ethics somewhere in you - look at Trump through that lens and if you don't see a purely self-interested person willing to destroy all - including his country - to advance his selfish needs then we need to heavily question your intelligence.

[@brendab.5111]

No way.

[@oliverbell1937]

He might have learned from Cohn but he ain’t ANY where near as intelligent…😂

[@stevenaleshire7941]

Give me Roy Cohen with all his flaws over these two, anyday. Their pseudo morality is comical.