What Did the Romans Think the Future Would Be Like?

From theories about the apocalypse to science fiction, the classical world produced some interesting theories about the future.
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This video is the first part of a collaboration with John Michael Godier. For the second part, visit: • Futurism and Ancient H...
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Chapters:
0:00 Seneca and the flood
1:05 The past of the future
2:02 Cyclical theories of history
3:03 Technological progress
3:58 Trade Coffee
5:07 Romans and the Golden Age
6:01 Anxieties about decline
6:41 Early Christian ideas
8:00 Conclusions

[@something7239]

Romans: The future looks bad. Modern: The future looks bad, but with technology.

[@reptilesspurky937]

The future is more optimistic than ever if we can crack the genetic basis for looks and intelligence the only 2 things in this world worth a damn. God is a monster so but he never interferes possible soon we can gene edit super beautiful exotic specimen in the lab. After all if muscle mass is largely why wouldn't look and intellgence be. Im very glad to be alive today because im the gen paving the path forward for genetic revolution

[@karaqakkzl]

@@reptilesspurky937 Roaring Twenties and World War era: the future is dope, ngl

[@CR7GOATofFootball]

@@reptilesspurky937 The future looks terrible.

[@laninthomasma8814]

Look around you and see if there's anything to contradict that.

[@coder9928]

@@reptilesspurky937 lol. Only the billionaires will get this technology. They will make your descendents into dumb subhumans that are easily controlled; while the progeny of the rulers have intelligence and beauty. Optimism my ass

[@archieames1968]

Modern technology focused futurism is a relatively new concept because up until around the industrial revolution technology didn't really change as drastically and quickly as it does now.

[@mikicerise6250]

Really it was more starting in the Renaissance that steady technological progress became a noticeable thing, it was just markedly accelerated after the industrial revolution. The Spanish certainly did not sail to the New World on classical triremes, and things like gunpowder, Newtonian physics, the telescope and the printing press preceded the industrial revolution.

[@jacopofolin6400]

​@@mikicerise6250 True but didnt change the lives of ordinary people like modern medicine, railways and cheap industrial goods

[@lajohnson8588]

true. there isn’t any noticable difference between generations back then. meanwhile in the modern world. there is rapid advancement between the oldest generation and the youngest generation

[@Lazare7782]

@@lajohnson8588yeah, there can be a difference for people just 10 years apart, not 1000 years like the medieval period

[@p0xus]

Its interesting to think of the impacts the Bronze Age Collapse had on these beliefs.

[@joekyle6594]

Ooh, this is a really compelling point. The fact that Antiquity civilizations more or less rose out of an arguable apocalypse could certainly give people of the time the impression that they lived in the recovering ruins of destroyed and romanticized civilizations.

[@p0xus]

@@joekyle6594 It is, isn't it? I mean, the mythical founding of Rome itself is a story of Trojans fleeing the city of Troy from an effective apocalypse to found the city of Rome. I doubt this myself, but it was part of the foundation myth of the Roman people

[@guifdcanalli]

@@joekyle6594 specially the greeks, for all means they were the descendants of the Mycenaeans, for sure the knowledge of the apocalypse they faced marked generations to come until the greeks later on

[@AsiandOOd]

the romans wouldve had no idea about the collapse as they migrated from eastern europe. the farthest they know is back to 800 bc with hesiod and homer.

[@guifdcanalli]

@@AsiandOOd The Romans absorved everything from the greeks, even tales about the end of the world, so even tho they didnt have the experience of the bronze age collapse they adopted the folk lore from the greeks who did experience the event

[@OptimusMaximusNero]

Seneca before meeting Nero: "If there is one thing I can guarantee after a lifetime of study, it is that the world has a bright future ahead of it..." Seneca after meeting Nero: "F*ck this sh*t" *Proceeds to cut his wrists*

[@MiScusi69]

Wait, how did he cut the second wrist? so, in the joke, Seneca invented a wrist-guillotine

[@---pt8fk]

@@MiScusi69 With his mouth, obviously

[@MiScusi69]

@@---pt8fk gotta try this

[@THEtodd_83]

lol

[@GenericYoutubeGuy]

Nah don’t promote wrist cutting bud

[@Fulcum]

I love how you are able to bring us back to what they thought at that time just shows how different technology can make humans think

[@Ottmar555]

Aka dialectical materialism 😉

[@AverageAlien]

we are as wrong now as they were then. We have stopped progressing technologically at some point in the 80s. We will not progress technologically for several thousand years now.

[@vejovis1248]

@@AverageAlien Tf you're talking about. During the 80's u had to have 5 different tools to play music, write notes, make a call, calculate numbers, listen to the radio, now you have all 5 things in your pocket, your cellphone. The only way in which you could see another person's face that was in another contintent was either by a picture or a TV, now you can do it with the same device with minimum delay. Stop talking sh

[@mnk9073]

@@vejovis1248 Pretty sure he means "big" inventions like agriculture, the wheel, smelting, refining, the printing press, the steam engine, flying, antibiotics, nuclear power and spaceflight not the miniaturising and combining of already existing tech.

[@candyman_315]

@@mnk9073 The age old tradition of downplaying modern advancements for the sake of making a point. You can't ever be wrong if you refuse to be wrong!

[@TheGahta]

Somehow the idea of a cyberpunk rome setting feels interesting and fresh 😆

[@sophrapsune]

It is striking that the ancients were wise enough to regard progress and decay in terms of the virtues, and did not suffer from the modern presumption that technical advances necessarily made for a better world.

[@Grothgerek]

I' not a native english speaker, so I'm not sure if I understand your comment correct, but isn't the 'modern presumption' correct? If you look at history, then atleast till now, progress always improved our lives.

[@eauegh7660]

@@Grothgerek until it doesn't, again.

[@Grothgerek]

@@eauegh7660 again? When did progress exclusively hurt us?

[@eauegh7660]

@@Grothgerek Look at almost every metric in the world getting worse, it is happening gradually. Roman empire also existed for a long time before it fell, that doesn't mean it didn't progress up to a certain point.

[@eauegh7660]

@@Grothgerek with every new advancement, comes a new set of challenges.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

I'm subscribed to both channels. I didn't expect this collaboration but I'm glad that it happened.

[@ScoobyFermentation]

I would love to see a collaboration with Bart Ehrman!!!

[@bobkeleher3455]

They're two of the only 3 KZbinrs I watch every piece of content from. The third is Stefan Milo.

[@Nathan-jt8zt]

@@bobkeleher3455 same, love these two and Stefan. If you’re into sciences and space, I’d recommended Anton Petrov. Another no bull channel.

[@IJustNukedMcDonalds]

Same, I am very pleasently surprised

[@DevinDTV]

same

[@puppieslovies]

It's hard to imagine a world where people didn't really have an interest in technological advancement But I'd imagine if you only knew a couple hundred years of history and things didn't change much, you would assume things don't move forward so fast

[@GenericYoutubeGuy]

I’m surprised nobody got anything out of that epic universal flood prediction, cuz little did that ultra smart Roman philosopher know that his predictions had come true over 3,000 years before! But what he didn’t know in his prediction is that the next punishment won’t be a food!

[@DanMcLeodNeptuneUK]

This is absolutely fascinating, the Greeks essentially saw themselves as a post apocalyptic civilization (in the sense of lost glory and knowledge) and theirs would be the last.

[@Bklyn93]

I tend to think the post Roman west prior to the Renaissance is like a post apocalyptic civilization

[@greyfells2829]

​@@Bklyn93not quite as much as post-Bronze age civilizations. The bronze age collapse killed almost all scholars and permanently wiped out cultures. The fall of Rome was still survived by the church and Roman traditions. Even modern European states are heavily inspired by Greco-Roman culture and politics. The eagle is ever-present in national symbolism.

[@swagmund_freud6669]

Only really in the west, not in the east.

[@Zenith2863]

You and Godier are a couple of my favorite people on KZbin! This collab is so cool!

[@jackcannan9045]

No way, can't believe you guys collaborated.. 2 of my favorite yet most topically distant channels

[@tobygoodguy4032]

And here I thought that you were going to tell us that the Romans were contemplating an all-empire dual lane inter-province chariot-ways complete with overpasses and ramps. 🤠

[@mso82]

Your deadpan delivery combined with the subtle humor has made you one of my favorite history youtubers. I appreciate it!

[@NavidIsANoob]

What the hell? This is the last collaboration I expected, but I love to see it!! Two absolute powerhouse channels.

[@ryanmbira3968]

Really fantastic video, a lot of videos could come out of this topic. Thank you as always, Dr. Ryan!

[@n00b_n00b_]

This channel is amazing, it has the best answers to the most interesting questions nobody asks

[@cerberus6654]

Dr. G, that was intriguing. It seems to me that the only 'western' civilization that had a good sense (among its educated elite) of the depth of its time and a non-apocalyptic vision of the future was that of the Egyptians. It makes me wonder if the fairly secure agricultural reality of the Nile valley lead to this? To a certain extent so too did the early civilizations of the Tigris and Euphrates have a less apocalyptic sense of future. But elsewhere, where there was no 'hydraulic security' then it went off into the Twilight Zone. Thoughts?

[@toldinstone]

That's certainly possible. Unless - as in the case of the Christians - there's a religious motivation, it's hard to say exactly why a certain conception of the past develops. In the Greco-Roman case, an early interest in cosmology (tempered by a rather grim political past) seems to have encouraged the adoption of a cyclical outlook, but that's just speculation on my part.

[@cerberus6654]

@@toldinstone I think you're absolutely right about the Greco-Roman combination of an interest in cosmology tempered by a grim political past (and throw in agricultural uncertainty). Look at the Aztecs. Grim political past and an obsession with cosmology allied with a sharp sense of agricultural uncertainty - that was not unwarranted - and you get their religious belief that 'we are all doomed', and it's coming soon.

[@su2spinors]

we are calling Egyptian civilization western now?

[@cerberus6654]

@@su2spinors Well it wasn't in China or Antarctica. And why do you think I put the word in parentheses?

[@su2spinors]

@@cerberus6654 Object A isn’t object B so it must be object C.

[@BonanzaRoad]

Thanks for another fascinating video. I always look forward to seeing where your lectures will go next.

[@wardlindemann8607]

I’ve enjoyed your work for some time now. You don’t come across this subject very often. It was fascinating. I’m going to spend some more time reading up on it. Thank you.

[@joomoo286]

i never would have imagined this collab! amazing!

[@AverageAlien]

you all bots following a script or something?

[@meatiest1989]

@@AverageAlien ong

[@williamrowland1003]

Just bought your book today at a book store in Colorado! Couldn’t believe when I saw it irl

[@joshuadallal5043]

You just gained another Subscriber. I love JMG, this channel is just as good.

[@crossfire7474]

Amazing collaboration between the channels I have subscribed to. Keep up the good work.

[@meeb_consumer]

It's amazing how the romans saw existence through a philosophical view. The cycle, the filling and emptying of the heart... Their interpretation of this play of matter and souls was amazing.

[@cry2love]

Collaborarium of both channels is magnificent! Thank you ❤

[@jacob6672]

Didn’t see this collab coming but I can’t complain!

[@mm-yt8sf]

i wonder if the romans kept track of when certain technologies were invented, or were they relatively far apart and isolated to guild knowledge so people didn't really make a big thing of it when something new/better appeared. if my life were lived much the same as my father and grandfather i guess the only things i'd think were changing would be those "darned good for nothing kids these days" 🙂

[@AsiandOOd]

some of the big ones were known across the empire such as aqueducts. slowly diffusing technologies such as stirrups and silk production came from the east and took around 100 years to spread across the mediterranean sea. so it really depends on what type of technology and how influential it is.

[@etaaramin9361]

Interestingly, there was also a lot of state censorship of technology that often goes unmentioned. The emperors were almost universally opposed to technological developments that might create widespread economic upheavals. The absolute last thing they wanted to deal with was mass protests, or large bands of unemployed men. If a new technology would upset the economic order, it was often suppressed through intimidation or in some cases even murder. This is believed to be a large part of why Rome never underwent anything resembling an industrial revolution, despite having the necessary precursors. It's also a part of why the empire was so long lasting - they were slow to change away from a formula that appeared to be working.

[@hedgehog3180]

Technology in the past usually developed over long periods of time and spread as it was adopted by different people so no one really “invented” it in the sense we'd think of today. Usually records will just mention where the author knows the technology from but not its actual origin.

[@Wyattinous]

I was just bingeing yours and other’s videos discussing Rome, couldn’t be happier that this popped up!

[@Planemeld]

Oh man this is a dynamite collab, and my favorite quirky topic I previously only contemplated by myself 😍

[@Shiresgammai]

Great work, gentlemen!

[@4zap7]

Love johns videos he covers the Fermi paradoxes possibilities more thoroughly than most and the event horizon podcast is amazing. Never thought I’d see him mentioned here

[@Belenus3080]

This is a collab we didn’t deserve, but needed

[@cheydinal5401]

1:49 Bronze Age ans Iron Age are brilliant

[@robbabcock_]

Get two of the best youtubers to collaborate and you can't go wrong!

[@Chewywrinkles]

What an awesome collab

[@frankmaston]

Fascinating video as usual Mr. Ryan :)

[@wrecker132]

What a legendary collaboration!

[@Benson_aka_devils_advocate_88]

That was completely unexpected to hear John's name at the start of the video! He's an amazing writer and story teller. Two descriptors that you'd think would go hand in hand, but they don't!

[@DragonTypeTrainer]

Thanks for the video sir.

[@EnigmaticEncounters420]

Amazing Collab

[@danielintheantipodes6741]

Thank you for the video!

[@AndDiracisHisProphet]

wow, i would never have expected this collab

[@WWCephas]

That was a very interesting subject. The artwork was fantastic as well, can you put a link to the sources possibly?

[@JohnVance]

You know it's gonna a good one when it ends on a Thomas Cole painting

[@dallassegno]

you know it's going to be good when you see it all the way through to the end. smh

[@hateterrorists]

You are only youtuber who's endorsements I never skip, out of respect of course. Hopefully somehow that gives you money.

[@paulkoza8652]

This takes my question one step further. My question is whether the ancients thought they were living in a modern age. This addressers the question of the future based upon their knowledge of the present and past.

[@codetech5598]

_"whether the ancients thought they were living in a modern age"_ No, they thought they had lost everything, being only refugees from Atlantis. All ancient civilizations thought they had lost something; the "Golden Age" was in the past.

[@hotwheelsearl]

I feel like every age is the modern age.

[@JcoleMc]

@@codetech5598 Feels kinda parallel to how the world sees its self now , everyone thinks the past was better and they somehow lost it .

[@spaniel5657]

@@JcoleMc *everyone misses childhood (well most)

[@greyfells2829]

​@@JcoleMcnot in this way though. Romans honestly believed that the old world was more advanced and more nice to live in. Most modern people understand that past ages were harder to live in, but still more morally upright.

[@locomuchacho1]

Holy shit two of my favorite channels collaborating!!!!!

[@brady1045]

Super interesting topic!

[@ikillcommiesable]

Unexpected dope colab right on

[@antoindearg5614]

Excellent Dr, thank you for these videos, and due to the sheer brilliance of your advertising style, I may just consider Trade coffee. Keep it up mate.

[@MrWeebable]

Fascinating question and video. Great choice to feature the Course of Empire paintings by Thomas Cole.

[@jezusbloodie]

Omg two of my favourite lore spreaders in one video?! What a surprise

[@PopeRecords]

I didn't expect that kind of crossover, both Godier and Toldinstone?! That's crazy, I love both channels so much.

[@ZiessRides]

John Michael Godier sent me this way. Great video, got me to sub.

[@homelessman2257]

The roman/Greek interpretation of the golden age of early humanity is fascinating, any suggestions on further reading?

[@DiocletianLarius]

Mmm, I only know the original sources ("Works and Days" - Hesiod, and Ovid's "Metamorphoses"), but maybe you've already read them

[@STho205]

Rome has never fallen. It has gone through decline and Renaissance. It has fragmented and coalesced and fragmented again....but it never fully fell. Rome and Constantinople simply moved. Constantinople became Moscow. Rome became Paris, London, then Berlin, then Washington. We still revere Roman ideals. We still simulate their games (without killing the atheletes). We still use their languages, their terms, their names. We still carve contemporary faces onto copies of their art. We still place copies of their buildings into our capitols and cities. We ARE Romans. We argue like Romans. We politic like Romans. We worship celebrity like Romans. We depend on and are addicted to luxury technology, but insist the simple natural life is better.

[@rworrick8037]

This is an incredible point of view.

[@scottiemail14]

Couldn’t agree more. You would not be able to recognize it without knowing of Rome.

[@LegioXXI]

It even gos further: The eagle and fasces (and yes, its also where the word "fascism" comes from) are symbols still used by this day and are a claim of being a successor of Rome. Especially Germany, France and USA lose a lot of former roman symbols in flags, agency symbols, city insignias and many more. The german word "Kaiser" (=emperor) even directly comes from "Caesar", which in classical latin is pronounced almost exactly the same. Romes legacy is everywhere in western culture.

[@Arch_Ariel]

@@LegioXXI the "Tsar" in russian is from "Ceasar" too

[@Calikid331]

I would add one more thing, religion! Roman Catholicism is the most practiced form of Christianity in the world by a big margin, even their religion is still around and going strong.

[@EmperorDank]

This collab was a suprise to be sure, but a welcome one.

[@Nightscape_]

Great video. After all these years of subscribing to John Michael Godier, Isaac Arthur, and other physics and science-based channels, I have nothing but optimism for the future of humanity among the stars and that each generation will be better off than the last. I am just happy I got to live at a time with indoor plumbing and electricity.

[@Blackadder75]

the romans already had indoor plumbing..... (although it was not very effective)

[@erik-ic3tp]

Which other science channels? Channels like futurehistory10, Critically selected etc.?

[@hieronymusvonlipschitz]

Space travel is a pipe dream. There's nothing useful in space and even if long range effective space travel is invented it'll be restricted to the rich. We're not going to escape our problems "out there"

[@stevenjames5874]

YOOOO JmG and TOLDINSTONEEE I LOVE IT!!!

[@vermasean]

JMG brought me here; both of your wonderful videos/series keep me here! 👍▶️🙌

[@AnonymousBosch3158]

I love both channels.

[@swindle2345]

A crossover I never knew I needed

[@serene-illusion]

Now this is the 1am content I needed

[@fliegeroh]

Marvelous video. Thanks.

[@Bkuuzin]

Checking out the channel!

[@donjezza]

this was great!

[@JukeBoxDestroyer]

you vids are waaay too short, only because they're so so good.

[@leemon908]

Cool unexpected collab!

[@apontel]

1:35 Come for Roman History, stay for the humour

[@DanCooper404]

This collab? A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.

[@michaelgraalum381]

In antiquity the largest inhibitor of prosperity was war and politics rather than technology

[@kirby282]

OMG TWO OF MY FAV CHANNELS COLLAB AAAAAAAAHHHHH

[@jimferry6539]

Oooo this is an interesting topic

[@WilliamStoneContentZone]

2 of my favorite channels

[@aydanmull]

Best collab ever

[@S3aCa1mRa1n]

The craziest combo ever dude Omg amazing

[@OptimusMaximusNero]

"Rome was chosen by the Gods as the Center of the World and that's it how it shall stay..." *Julius Caesar the night before the Ides of March, 44 B.C*

[@NickPoeschek]

A JMG collaboration is unexpected but very welcome!

[@Sarke2]

Very interesting, thank you

[@garywhite2050]

Outstanding 🔥👍

[@nicholas1173]

Oh! Happy to see john here

[@dionisos1991hel]

Very interesting topic, especially for our modern societies. Is there any book that you adviced for the creation of this video? I would love to read more on the topic

[@burhansarwar]

Would you, or do you already have listed somewhere references for the artwork in your videos? The flood scenes were especially provocative

[@ScoobyFermentation]

This video gave me a great idea for another collaboration. I would love to hear you in a podcast interview Bart Ehrman. Please!!!

[@toldinstone]

If I could convince him to come on, he would be a fascinating guest

[@jurassicpeter]

I never expected John Michael Godier on a channel about ancient cultures. He's among my favorite creators! I just stumbled upon this video and now you've earned my sub! Great content!

[@ct6852]

Reminds me of that Darron Aronofsky film Mother! And how the ending fits seamlessly with the beginning.

[@Ktotwf]

JMG on toldinstone? Never even thought to hope for it!

[@georgemarian3563]

Outstanding

[@matthewrouge]

What's the painting towards the beginning? People and beasts in the rain. That's amazing!

[@ricardofit5553]

I play your videos before I go to sleep

[@fatcole1152]

I almost threw my shoe at the TV because I mistook the cursor on the screen during the ad as a big bug from a distance

[@bobofthestorm]

Human Civilization used to be cyclical. Now we think that Human Civilization is linearly progressive. Be it hubris or optimism, we are so confident in the human potential that we now believe that greatness will always prevail. Stark contrast to mankind that came before who used to be very wary of that same human potential for ruin.

[@ForbiddenFollyFollower]

Deaf ears

[@inveterateforeigner2780]

5:45 that is an absolutely stunning painting

[@dionadair8195]

The Greek Inventions/Roman Inventions comparison made me chuckle.

[@EminencePhront]

So basically futurism itself is a technology, and one that didn't exist back then. The ability to imagine what could be is what fuels so much modern innovation and the lack of it is what held the ancient world back.

[@mikicerise6250]

The ancient world lacked a pool of billions of people from which to draw ideas, patent laws to incentivize invention, and an abolition of slavery to incentivize automation. These are the things that ultimately coalesced in early modern Europe to lead to the scientific revolution.

[@UNSCPILOT]

Then again, to some degree, some of that lack of futurism might have stabilized the culture a bit too. Our current era is a bit to quick to toss stuff aside in favor of "new" in very wasteful ways even when "old" is still working fine, we need to find some manner of balance to be sustainable. Even Native, supposedly less advanced, cultures understood that aggressively abusing your environment is a slow but certain death

[@EminencePhront]

@@UNSCPILOT Advanced cultures know about the dangers of abusing the environment better than primitive peoples. The reason that advanced cultures are doing more damage is because they have the capability to and that a minority of society does so in order to make money. Read "Collapse" to learn about primitive cultures that destroyed their economy.

[@bud389]

"What held the ancient world back" - You aren't too bright, are you? The ancient world was incredibly advanced, using technology we aren't even aware of today to build monoliths like the colossus of Rhodes, the Great Pyramid, and the amphitheater. They had running water with sewage systems still used today, heated floors, multi-tiered apartment complexes, and roads that lasted thousands of years. They weren't held back at all, in fact it's exactly the opposite; their genius and deeply sophisticated societies and engineering is what lead to their downfall due to their decadence, mixed with the masses of people clamoring to invade them and take it for themselves, very much akin to what is happening now. The ancient world was filled with philosophers and rulers imagining what "could be", it's what drove them to reach the apexes they did, and allowed them to create one of the longest lasting, largest empires on the planet.

[@EminencePhront]

@@bud389 I can picture your fedora flying off your head as you furiously typed up that response.

[@supremereader7614]

Wanna watch more. Great idea to work with John Michael Godier. You just need your own liiiiive signature.

[@Amadeu.Macedo]

Congratulations on having accomplished what I deem "absolutely marvelous!" While most members of your audience are also bound to love this video, for those - like me - who nearly worship "History" and "Cosmology," your production should be applauded. Thanks for contributing significant material to my growing knowledge and understanding vis-a-vis the lives of our beloved ancestors in antiquity. P.S. Since I was betimes not yet acquainted with your channel, I have immediately subscribed to it (and yes, I did click on the "bell") looking forward to experiencing some of your early work, and hoping that you have considered deliberating about my favorite topic, namely Ancient Mesopotamia (specially Sumer and Assyria). BRAVO!

[@SvensktTroll]

Can invite you to an interesting Telegram channel if you want.

[@feelxt8752]

What's the painting at the beginning of the video, next to Seneca's statue???

[@Snazzysneferu]

How about a video on Lucretius' "atomic theory"?

[@toldinstone]

I have a video on the Stoics and Epicureans in the planning stage. Stay tuned...