What do the new CRC Synod 2024 Officers signal? Return of Church Discipline?

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[@patrickguarracino1973]

"Has the CRC ever been about the Confessions" Now we are getting somewhere This is part of the uniqueness of the CRC. It has both a plus side and its limits. We are now facing the limitations of a culturally formed church. Let's not burn the confessions along with the shoes

[@erics4802]

Jacob only likes Synod because it sounds kinda like Synagogue... 😁

[@jimluebke3869]

PVK: "How do women exert leadership in churches?" Matt Fradd (iirc): "A phalanx of nuns can make the bishop tremble"

[@nyletterpress]

Remember, the Dutch was the language spoken in the Garden of Eden

[@nyletterpress]

These anecdotes are amazing, hahaha. I remember two guys arguing about common grace (CRC and OPC) back in the 1970's in South Holland, Illinois, ten years later they were still at it.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Love these CRC episodes! So very informative! Many thanks to PVK for explaining the *deep* family dynamics of the CRC. The issues that are going on are now making much more sense to me. In regards to ethnic churches, in the Chicago area, they are as common as dirt. The other day, I was driving through Palatine, Illinois, a northwest suburb, and found myself zooming past a Greek Orthodox church I've never seen before: St. Nectarios Greek Orthodox Church. I would not have even noticed it, except the for the big banners the planted along the edge of the road in GREEK. I guess the church is 50 years old now, and they want the GREEK SPEAKING people of the area to know how happy they are about it. In just a couple of weeks, they will be having _Greek Fest_ which all us non-Greeks really enjoy, as they have lots of Greek food, drink and music, and all are invited to celebrate the superiority of the Greek culture, which we all do gladly. The Othobros hate when I say this, but in my area, it's 100% true: Orthodox churches are super-duper ethnic in this area. If you ever watched the famous movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" (which takes place in Chicago!), it is far more accurate than not in how the Greeks in this area operate. I have family that has married into the Orthodox, so I say this from first hand experience. The point being this: ethnic churches have a place in American culture up to the present day. Christianity is not just about Jesus, it is about _tradition,_ just as it often is amongst more conservative Jews. The tradition binds as much, if not more, than the creeds. In regards to the Dutch, there is a wonderful way for TLC people to learn more about them and their influence through a book written by Hank Meijer about his grandfather Hendrik Meijer, the man who created the enormously successful Meijer chain stores of Michigan and Illinois. (There might be a few in Indiana and Ohio too.) The title of the book is _Thrifty Years: The Life of Hendrick Meijer" and is published by Wm. B. Eerdmans, of course. One wonders if Hank flipped a coin to see if Eerdmans or Zondervan was going to publish his book. It is a surprisingly good read, and open your eyes a bit to the Dutch culture of western Michigan. If you live near a Meijer, you can find multiple copies in the book section of the store. Here's an excerpt from the introduction: *"In his last years he [Hendrik Meijer] was a familiar figure to people who worked and shopped in Meijer stores. He was walking through one of his supermarkets in Grand Rapids one day when a butcher stopped him. The butcher, like Hendrick a Dutch immigrant, asked my grandfather if he was sponsor the immigration of a friend from the Netherlands. It was a familiar request for a Grand Rapids employer, particularly in the years after World War II. Hendrick had already helped several of his countrymen immigrate.* *"Bert, a friend of yours is a friend of mine," Hendrik told the butcher. "I'll sponsor him." The butcher thanked the older man, then hesitated. Grand Rapids was, and still is, a conservative, sometimes pious place. "I have to warn you, Mr. Meijer," he said. "This man is not a Christian and he doesn't attend church." At that, Hendrik leaned toward the butcher and said, "You know Bert, if what you say is so, I'll not only sponsor him, I'll give him a job when he gets here."* Now there would be a really good guest for a rando conversation: get Hank Meijer on your show. I believe he still lives in Grand Rapids. I bet he would be a wealth of information on the Dutch immigrants to America, and their history.

[@kathyw7369]

When my parents got married in 1960, my non-Dutch father was treated two ways by ministers: one visiting minister actually commented negatively about a non-Dutch person being a member, while another considered my parents' marriage to be great as outreach beyond the typical borders. Our current church, in suburban Chicago, is even more Dutch-oriented, maybe because it's such a small group per capita.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

I completely believe that.

[@DogOneIsOpen]

26:05 I can see the difficulty in the affirming/non-affirming question a little more clearly when you factor in the family/ethnic orientation of the church but Jesus’s difficult words are useful here: “Jesus replied, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” Then he looked at those around him and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. Anyone who does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”” ‭‭Mark‬ ‭3‬:‭33-35 This video did enlighten me about the difficulty of the decisions the CRC will have to make. I didn’t appreciate how much this will tear close families apart.

[@unit2394]

The CRC must enact church discipline or they will end up like the United Methodists.

[@kathyw7369]

I wish they'd apply the same to bad doctrine. I've heard far too much subordinationism. So much for equality among the persons of our one God.

[@tomcavanaugh4065]

I have been a missionary to the Dutch since 1972 It's a tough job.

[@sandybassie1220]

Can't listen to this through again now, Paul (watched it live). Listening to the opening, I'd like to hear you and Jacob on Canadians sometime. I have been thinking about the dynamic here a long time. My ex's parents were between my grandparents and parents by age, his older siblings were my mom's generation, and the CRC in general had some of those odd dynamics based around timing of their arrival in Canada. Comparing generations and cultures was very interesting. The 2/3 to 1/3 is not only interesting around boomer, millennial, genX .... but also the ways the US/Canada differences are downplayed in one way, then over emphasized in others. Attitudes are interesting.

[@lynnlavoy6778]

5:21 "Marxist lie to get power" .... no, people lie for power. I" think that the task of philosophy is not to provide answers, but to show how the way we perceive a problem can be itself part of a problem." Slavoj Zizek

[@chrisfair11]

Fire way to start a convo

[@logoimotions]

Listening to Paul on the MidWest people who aren't a cabal very reminiscent of Yarvin's Cathedral.

[@jonathansmith336]

The issues of headship, discipline, sexual identity, and other cultural, spiritual, and theological issues all have a nexus in women in ministry because church and family are closely related. Egalitarianism and hierarchy don't function well together.

[@glubbywubby1253]

Women are not given the authority to hold the keys of the kingdom. Another way of saying it is women are not given that authority over others which includes discipline

[@monkfoobar]

A lower third news crawl, we’re in the big leagues now.

[@Patrick-eh2yb]

I live on the Border of Illinois NorthWest Indiana. Lansing Illinois has deep Dutch Roots. There are Multiple CRC Churches. Most have big Buildings and very small attendance. 5 minutes away in South Holland Illinois. CRC Churches there are empty. Munster Church CRC in NWI has huge Congregation. Many CRC churches in South Holland And NWI broke away from CRC and formed Kingdom Network. Faith Church has Multiple Campuses. They have a Illinois Indiana Classis. They have churches in Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, California, Ohio.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Hmmm. I'm going to have to look into this.

[@matthewkilbride1669]

Jacob’s takes are so clearly predicated on political polarization that you need a large serving of Salt on everything he says.

[@faturechi]

You doubt that things are politically polarized? You think a California Jew is paying attention to Classis Grand Rapids East for religious reasons?

[@ericlefevre7741]

Jacob, your poster is very nerdy and very awesome. What is your favorite commander deck?

[@faturechi]

Thank you! It is an uncut sheet of Zendikar commons. WotC sent it to me back before I caused at that trouble for them and was blacklisted. LOL. I don't play much commander, but the last deck I made was around Ashling, the Pilgrim. I never played much with the Commander specific decks and I like to cast my commander. I also have been avoiding buying anything from WotC since they sacked Terese Nielsen, one of my favorite artists.

[@Freerilian]

PVK, could you give an example of what you’d think would be a clear instance of overplaying of the hand, as you are concerned the conservatives will do if not careful. And if you think Devries mishandled it last year, what were some tweaks you would have recommended to his handling?

[@williambranch4283]

T Grog is Catholic, but wants Bible quotes ;-)

[@jimluebke3869]

Odd, from his posts I thought he was an atheist.

[@matthewkilbride1669]

2 early thoughts: 1) I’d be careful about the “conservative minorities” point. They may be conservative, but if you’re expecting a 1-1 correspondence with white American conservatives, you’re setting yourself up for disappointments. 2) I personally find the idea of people in their 40s disciplining people 20-30 years their seniors vaguely abhorrent, just reflexively. I imagine a lot of people would. It’s one thing to practice discipline via electronic media, another to practice it face-to-face with your elders.

[@faturechi]

What is disturbing is seeing elders who have so thoroughly failed in their task of helping the next generation of leaders take over. The leftists talk a huge game about the youth leading, but they only mean that when the youth are so young that they are easily manipulated.

[@williambranch4283]

Jacob ... you object to pragmatic politics. The goal is always "get what we want".

[@jimluebke3869]

Jacob's implying that to the Marxist, the ends justify any means.

[@williambranch4283]

@@jimluebke3869 Evil is more general than Marxism.

[@johnbouwers6787]

"The Boomers have been in charge for 60-70 years" Huh?

[@j.g.4942]

For the states it should be 50-40 years, unless they started in positions at 18 (I know some as early as 22) that would begin according to wiki in 1964.

[@williamdavidwallace3904]

Wanted to grok the content but with my hearing totally gone over night (in my left ear which was my good ear) as of 10 days ago the sub titles are too confusing. Oh well. SAD! Also have vision problems being treated by UniWat Optical care so that does not help.

[@williambranch4283]

Discipline is a good idea, but democracy implies plurality.

[@BeachandHills-hb2pq]

If you lose the vote you dont get the change. If you can not accept the loss and leave its not the winners fault. If they accepted the loss and stayed quiet they would be accepted and could try agin later maybe 20 years.

[@williambranch4283]

@@BeachandHills-hb2pq Enjoy gulag today ;-)

[@BeachandHills-hb2pq]

@@williambranch4283 Dont get the joke? As for the CRC watching a denomination try to stop changes to the religions teachings on family and sexual best practice is very interesting. The effect of Political activism being raised to the level of Religion and the battles is happening in other western countrys.

[@williambranch4283]

@@BeachandHills-hb2pq Yes, but not my point. We all need to be homogeneous clones in an organization, or our plurality will break up our unity ;-)

[@lkae4]

CRC is a white immigrant denomination. As a regular immigrant, fascinating to watch.

[@jimluebke3869]

Is?

[@lkae4]

@@jimluebke3869 For now.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@lkae4 I suspect PVK will live to see the change. As a racial reconciliation preacher, it's odd that he resists.

[@lkae4]

@@jimluebke3869 Doesn't seem to me like he's resisting it. But he's way too intelligent to fall for the mandatory diversity nonsense. And as a minority, I can confirm that racism is real but race is not real.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@lkae4 It seems to me that racial reconciliation and the CRC being a family operation, are mutually exclusive. "You're welcome here, but you're never going to be in the inner circle", through no reason other than race or nationality, seems exactly counter to "There is no Jew nor Greek in Christ Jesus".

[@Parsons4Geist]

The gap between boomers, gen z, and millennials has no community givens to bind and blind any longer. now just blind leading the blind Without a community humans feel alienated and aimless there is a link between homelessness and existential anxiety. But paradoxical Community character is the very lubricant that makes the banality of evil possible from Hannah Arendt. blind to realizing the symbolic order, unable to question established routines of the thoughtless everydayness invisible axioms the subject can offload to the community it's need to think through dialectical reasoning

[@williambranch4283]

Community is ideological ... plurality made it easier for political extremes take control over the center in the 1920s in Europe.

[@Parsons4Geist]

@@williambranch4283 excellent point. ideology gives us the appearance covering over the gap, extremes trick us to see symptoms as the problem, only exacerbating the contradictions.

[@williambranch4283]

@@Parsons4Geist Human behavior in groups, is notably dysfunctional. Part of this may be the consistently bad human estimation of risk ... feminism to tornadoes.

[@jimluebke3869]

We have been conditioned by media to reject _any_ community standards, obligations, or ties. (Except pay your taxes, and support government redistribution.) Joe McCarthy was right, and if anything didn't go far enough.

[@williambranch4283]

@@jimluebke3869 McCarthy was controlled opposition, that challenged the Army. JFK was too, but he challenged the CIA.