What do the Trans community need most right now? Abigail Thorn & Freddy McConnell | Pod Save The UK

Nish and Coco take a special look at the issues facing the trans and non-binary community in the UK today. For this discussion they are joined by Abigail Thorn (actress, writer and host of PhilosophyTube) and Freddy McConnell (journalist)
In recent news, the current Tory government has proposed new guidelines for education in schools across England. Education Secretary Gillian Keegan said that gender identity should not be taught in schools to students of any age. Abigail and Freddy respond to these news headlines and discuss The Cass review, a proposed new approach from the Labour Party around the Gender Recognition Act and which individuals need highlighting for their work on trans rights in the UK.
Note: This episode of Pod Save the UK was recorded before the announcement of the UK General Election 2024.
Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.
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Guests:
Abigail Thorn, actress, writer & host of PhilosophyTube
Freddy McConnell, journalist
CHAPTERS:
0:00 Intro
0:53 New draft guidance from Conservative Party
03:16 Debunking the claim of 72 genders
09:29 Abigail Thorn & Freddy McConnell
14:22 Waiting times for Gender Identity Clinics
16:27 Desegregating Healthcare
18:22 Politics is not remote
26:25 Labour’s announcements on the Gender Recognition Act
31:32 The Cass Review
39:42 Polling Data of the British public
44:11 Highlighting Individuals
47:32 Credits
Useful links:
Come to see Pod Save the UK live at Edinburgh Fringe!
transsafety.network/
Transactual Briefing on the Cass Review - transactual.org.uk/wp-content...
Video credits:
ITV
BBC
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[@AshArAis]

"We need to talk about trans issues, what should we do?" "Interview trans people?" You did it! The thing a lot of media outlets seem to consistently forget.

[@ribbrascal1065]

I agree, listening to trans people is what caused me to pull a total 180 on this issue. To anti.

[@asuka_the_void_witch]

mainstream media is owned by conservative companies.

[@Gibbons3457]

​@@ribbrascal1065Imagine telling on yourself like this and expecting to look good or clever.

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@Gibbons3457 I also have great hair.

[@Gibbons3457]

​@@ribbrascal1065Desperate.

[@Anthropomorph0]

I love Abigails uncompromising attitude. Human lives and human rights are not to be compromised with.

[@TetsugakuSan]

Does that include the human rights of women who don't want trans women in their changing rooms, toilets, sports and hospital wards?

[@asuka_the_void_witch]

so goated

[@BadgerGirl]

@@nickthepostpunk5766 if that was really the case then the gender-critical groups wouldn't need to lie and wouldn't need to get into bed with far-right groups and think tanks like they do.

[@marthanorton9239]

⁠@@nickthepostpunk5766 “biological women” 🤮🤮🤮. Trans lives are just as important as cis lives.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

@@nickthepostpunk5766 trans people aren't infringing in the human rights of women and children. They are allies, they are attacked and abused by men for the same reasons, just more often. Trans people are statistically more likely to be the victims of violence than the. Perpetrators. You're pushing an anti human ideology that encourages violence toward them, that's what you mean by resist.

[@1st1anarkissed]

Lack of info didnt stop me identifying as trans, but it stopped me knowing there was any recourse beside living as a crazy person who doesn't want to be alive. Age 60 and I finally am just myself. At last. Still half crazy but now because of trauma and stress instead of gaslighting.

[@ultradeathboy]

"gaslight" By what, your body?

[@Niobesnuppa]

@@ultradeathboy By other people.

[@marchekate]

Fricking love Abigail Thorn, Philosophy Tube is superb. Thanks for having them on.

[@audreydoyle5268]

(Her)

[@pfunnell70]

​@@audreydoyle5268could have been referring to Freddie as well

[@ribbrascal1065]

​@@audreydoyle5268*him

[@she_is_lavender_rose]

@@pfunnell70no

[@marchekate]

@@audreydoyle5268 was that correction entirely necessary? I wasn't misgendering her.

[@davdt437]

"exists to be cited not to be read" - brilliant line

[@yoavshati]

She talks about this idea more in her video about mailing the NHS and investigating the system when wanting to start her transition

[@AndrewGillard]

​@@yoavshatiAbi also discusses the [C]ass report as a guest on the Trashfuture podcast (episode “The Devon Report” from 2024-04-16) where it's covered in more detail than this video went into 😸 (That's not a criticism of this video, to be clear! :))

[@anamakesthings]

I love how Abigail described the idea of gender disphoria only used clinically to pathologize the trans community. I'm a girl. I feel secure in being a girl, I barely spend an ounce of my thoughts on me being a girl. That being said, there are moments when people expected things of me BECAUSE I'm a girl, or expect me to NOT do something, for the same reason. In those moments I feel a rageful gender disphoria. Like... how can you look at me and see *that* about me when every ounce of my biological being is telling me the opposite? I go through such a severe dissonance with how I perceive myself vs how others perceive me that it turns into genuine disphoria. And I have sincere, authentic thoughts of "well, if THIS is what society deems feminine, wtf am I???" And again, this is coming from someone who's 99.9% of the time absolutely secure in their womanhood....

[@lif6737]

Out of curiosity, would you mind giving me an example of a situation where that happened?

[@heatherjones4894]

As someone with a similar experience: "Oh, but you'd look so much prettier if you just wore some makeup!" "... Are you really not going to wear a dress?" "Eating like that isn't very feminine... You're not going to eat like a man, are you?" "Sit like a woman" "Don't talk like that, that's not feminine" Basically a constant policing of how I dress, act, eat, talk, the things I like and the things I dislike...

[@starksandrecreation]

@@lif6737same as heatherjones-just very strict boundaries of what being a woman means, and forcing me to act/dress/be within those boundaries. Now that I’m an adult and out of the house (and my parents who pushed those strict boundaries on me have both passed) I can live more freely in that sense, but growing my household had “girl chores” like dishes, laundry and “boy chores” like taking out the garbage and mowing the lawn. My older sister at one point wanted to learn how to mow the lawn and my flat out refused to let her touch the mower. Somehow (🙄) there were my “girl chores” than “boy chores”, and whenever relatives/family friends came over my older sister and I were expected/forced to sit (like ladies: legs together, not lounging, actively listening) and talk (like ladies: not too loud was my main problem 😅) with the adults before playing with our cousins/friends-though if there weren’t any cousins/kids our age, we weren’t allowed to go do our own thing until the relatives/family friends basically dismissed us. Anywhere in public with family was very similar-I was always “being unladylike” because I was too loud, not looking at the person speaking to me/us, fidgeted too much, didn’t pay attention enough, hated being forced to “dress appropriately” (ie wear a dress/skirt based on what my parents said our destination needed, not based on what other people were wearing-I was one of the few in my youth group that wore dresses/skirts every Sunday up until high school, the other kids wore jeans), I didn’t eat “human portions” of food (ie put more on my plate than was ladylike), hated wearing makeup but tried sometimes bc I got positive attention from my parents, “talking back” all the time... and yeah, a bunch of those things were my ADHD and Autism (undiagnosed until a couple years ago at 30) but growing up in the 90s/early 2000s “girls didn’t have ADHD or Autism”, therefore my symptoms were seen and communicated to me as just me choosing not to obey and be ladylike. My parents did their best in a lot of ways, but that very narrow view of what being a girl/woman looks like caused so many arguments and fucked up my mental health for decades. BUT. even at my most “tomboy” rebellious phase, I never had the thought that I was actually a man/not a girl. I’d occasionally wish I’d been born a boy but those was very specifically because I wanted to be free from the strict gender role I was being forced into, misogyny, and periods. Strict gender roles hurts cis kids too, but more importantly, it doesn’t “make us” trans because it’s not possible to make a person be trans just like you can’t make a person be Autistic or like the taste of cilantro.

[@anamakesthings]

@@lif6737 working as a buss"boy", getting my driver's license, working in construction, solo purchasing a home, things that I personally don't see tied to my gender AT ALL but, to the outside world, come with imbedded gender "markers"

[@CreativeCache101]

​@@anamakesthingsyour just describing people being sexist, that's shouldn't make you feel good😂

[@Lolcatterie]

The lies about the trans community in the national press have led to a horrific national conversation that shames us all. Thanks for standing up against that with your platform.

[@TetsugakuSan]

Can you tell us any of those lies please?

[@ribbrascal1065]

What lies?

[@brentboymebob8754]

@@ribbrascal1065 The consistent assertion that trans people living as normal people in society is "shoving the ideology down our throats."

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@brentboymebob8754 But they're not living as "normal people", that's the entire point

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@brentboymebob8754 They are absolutely demanding all of society submit to their ideology

[@dianehoekstra6880]

The first thing Abby brings up is the pathologisation of the phrase "gender dysphoria" This is an unfortunate side effect of US cultural leakage. Our healthcare system REQUIRES something to be wrong to in order to pay for treatment. I'm old enough to remember that gender dysphoria was a de pathologising phrase on our side of the Atlantic. Before that, it was gendder identitiy disorder, which implied that our internal sense of gender was objectively wrong, and that's why we suffered. The current phrasing is a careful balancing act which says "you are not fundamentally broken, but also you need healthcare to treat this issue."

[@im-radio]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGLIiHypnbqtqJo abigail's video on the subject

[@duderyandude9515]

When Abigail released her video where she laid out her issues with the concept of "gender dysphoria", I remember that Natalie Wynn (Contrapoints) took issue with it and both of them had a bit of a back and forth on Twitter. Someone pointed out that it makes sense for Natalie to take issue with it as an American that has to deal with the nightmare of the American healthcare system whereas Abigail deals with the NHS.

[@liberality]

​@@duderyandude9515 And yet the NHS has no mandate to pay for the treatment of non-illnesses. Abigail's argument for NHS funding rests on the premise that transgender people are owed resources to achieve their life goals. That would be a privilege that no other class of people enjoys. The irony of announcing a role in Star Wars while also demanding public funding for elective procedures will not be lost on people who are languishing on NHS waiting lists for essential medical treatments.

[@quittalkingpish]

Thank you for posting this - one thing that always crosses my mind when panelists or media outlets "discuss" these things is that there's never an actual trans person on the show. Ever. They don't invite them on as stories such as Abigail's and Freddy's would directly contradict any narrative that specific outlet is trying to push. I'm a cis-man, I have no ball in this game and even I can see that it's reached a point where it is downright cruel and barbaric how trans people are being treated in the UK today and it gives the general public a 'pass' to channel hate towards them. It makes my blood boil.

[@CorwinFound]

100% on your point about lack of including marginalized groups in discussions about them. I'm a trans guy and I can't even count all the times I've seen a panel of cis folks debating trans issues. Even ones that are supportive and allies don't seem think that including a trans person might be valuable. One other thing I'd mention is that you _do_ have a ball in this game. Trans rights are _human_ rights. Living in a society that dehumanizes anyone, dehumanizes everyone. _Your_ life is quantifiably better when equity and equality exist. A really great example is women's rights. It has been proven over and over that when countries and cultures empower women socially, economically and through bodily autonomy that the entire societal well being improves... including for men. Women's equality doesn't take from men, it actually helps them. And it's the same for every group. So yes, you do have a ball in this game, horse in this race, or other applicable sports metaphor!

[@kyle-silver]

Even though you’re a cis person, I’d say you do still have a ball in this game. You can be an ally in the fight for equality and justice, and you may in the future (or even now, and just not know it yet) have a friend or loved one who’s trans.

[@AndrewMcColl]

And if they do have a trans person on, it's either someone extremely flamboyant, playing up to harmful stereotypes, or someone who now regrets/was misinformed about their decision.

[@robertmarshall2502]

They invite them all the time but they almost never turn up. It's part of the problem of #nodebate. You should also notice that the far left also pretty much only invites the males although there are now more female trans ppl

[@paulhammond6978]

This is always the case - they don't put transgender people themselves on to discuss these things. And they really should.

[@liam7342]

Nish, you were slightly wrong, the NHS constitution says; 'The 18 weeks commitment is a universal right, as set out in the NHS Constitution and the NHS Operating Framework' It's not a goal or an aim it's a right that trans people and to a much lesser extent neurodiverse people are having withdrawn.

[@Spamhard]

Yeah. Waited 5 years for my ADHD diagnosis. STILL waiting to begin medication but have been told that's been put on indefinite hold due to medication shortages. Could be waiting years more. Imagine that being told to some with diabetes or similar.

[@liam7342]

@@Spamhard there is a way to make the NHS pay for private treatment for you, though NHS partners? Look it up there is a way around it, it's a pain in the ass but its doable

[@Spamhard]

@@liam7342 Right to Choose can still be an absolute ball ache sadly. Many GPs just refuse it, or get really weird about the process. Sadly I've already had my diagnosis so I'm just in this weird limbo of waiting for meds but being told they're 'on hold indefinitely', so i don't think RTC would be an option for me now anyway.

[@ohpurpled]

You'd think so wouldn't you, but the courts say no.

[@dominomasked]

Some comedians only care about being “edgy”. As they get older and richer, it gets way easier to be trailing-edge-y, and give up on trying to be leading-edge-y.

[@franimal86]

You know what’s edgy to this day? Being unequivocally supportive of trans rights and the LGBT community. It’s still a struggle to be an unapologetic and well-informed ally, and some of these comedians don’t seem understand that.

[@jsrodman]

It's kind of pathetic to see (formerly) talented comedians think that just punching down is somehow good comedy. I mean, you might be able to find a good joke that happens to include punching down accidentally, though that would not land well for those who can see it. But not even bothering to do good humor and just punching down, as a stand-up comedian? That's doubly pathetic.

[@superdrwholock]

True, it's like 'I'm being silenced for saying my opinion, here's my new netflix show that will get millions of views in which I talk about how hard it is to cope with being silenced, I will get cancelled again for this' wow so edgy and against the mainstream, well done maverick lol

[@theharlequin3088]

>"Behold my super offensive triggering edgy outrageously hilarious conservative comedy!" >stands behind a mic repeating "I hate women." for an hour...

[@MaterialSquid]

Nish doesn't even care about being funny

[@harrisdack]

Chilling that teaching children empathy, understanding and compassion should be frowned upon.

[@chrisbfreelance]

That's not what is happening here.

[@collyernicholasjohn]

Not to mention truth, science and reality.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

@@collyernicholasjohn trans people are validated by truth science and reality. Teaching children that trans people exist and are acceptable is teaching them truth science and reality

[@collyernicholasjohn]

@@itcouldbelupus2842 If children are taught trans people are simply males or females who try to present as or (wrongly) believe they’re the opposite sex, I have no problem. But gender-bollocks like ‘gender identity’, ‘sex as a spectrum’, and ‘people can change sex’ should stay in the holy church of Jonestown Gender-woo, not schools.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

@@collyernicholasjohn okay, but if science were to prove and validate that sex is spectrum and gender identity is a thing, you'd have no problem with it then right? Because science is always progressing and changing as we learn new information and since you care about truth science and reality you wouldn't have a problem with that being taught if it was validated by science and reality would you?

[@duncansonoryan]

As a trans person (in the US), I can tell it is much more difficult and volatile now than it was 10-15 years ago. Thank you for doing this episode. People, even on the left, get caught up in false information and fake narratives and end up hurting us even more.

[@triciaamheiser785]

Forth-right and clear at every level. I consider myself an ally, but it was good to hear what the reality is for trans folk. I wish feminists would open their eyes and realise that trans struggle holds so many parallels to their own. Just as gay marriage poses no threat to straight marriage, trans rights are not threat to womens rights, it's about autonomy.

[@duncansonoryan]

​@@triciaamheiser785a high tide raises all boats.

[@joetrent4753]

I find it vile the people who are on the left who comment about progressive attitudes, equality and fairness yet those same people will write comments with the most appalling transphobia. There only ‘experience’ as far as I can tell is just the many mistruths that get front page headlines without any facts to back them up.

[@Sammit00]

@@duncansonoryan true facts

[@yesitschelle]

I'm on the left in the US. Yeah, I didn't know the ugly background of the Cass report. I believed it was independent. Studies get wrong answers sometimes. I hear plenty of people talking about it as a legit study. It's frightening.

[@dominicparker6124]

I lost a trans friend to suicide because the wait times were untenable. Just awful

[@Anthropomorph0]

I'm so sorry for your loss. Heartbreaking and horrifying.

[@sharonbaker3007]

I'm so very sad and sorry for your loss, and the community's loss. Much love💙

[@jambott5520]

People often forget that gender dysphoria is basically psychological torture. Enforcing womens gender roles onto men has been used as a torture method for prisoners of war, because it is very effective. The wait times are literal torture.

[@Faus4us_Official]

Live.

[@wen6519]

I am so so sorry.

[@HFEpro]

cue the classic sonic meme: yes there's 72 genders and every time you complain we make 5 more. also it's hilarious that a gender education rumor started in a place called the isle of MAN... art imitates life.

[@ribbrascal1065]

So how many genders are there?

[@EllieK_814]

​@@ribbrascal1065 As many as there are people.

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@EllieK_814 Wrong. There are 2.

[@EllieK_814]

@@ribbrascal1065 I'm sorry you can only count that high. I sincerely hope your mathematical abilities improve. 👍

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@EllieK_814 I hope your reason improves, although my optimism is rather dim

[@cicelyamelia]

I’m so so glad this episode didn’t get pushed given the political drama that’s happened this week. Such an important topic, ESPECIALLY now we’re having a general election

[@totalvoid6234]

Is it? Given the choices are "Death camps for trans people" and "Death camps for trans people" and by the way "Death camps for trans people" is a dead cert for a sweeping majority?

[@SteffBrockley]

I glad to you see you do this. I’m a 40 year old New Zealand trans woman and I grew up on British comedy. Nothing has been more heartbreaking than watching my old heroes fall into this pit of hatred. I don’t know that I can watch my old favourites like Father Ted or The Office anymore. And it makes me wary around trying to find joy in any new material. So any time a British comedian shows themselves to be an ally I take one more breath of relief.

[@sallycinnamon795]

Ricky used trans people's words against you.. He mocked the ridiculous way women are treated by the trans Community..Maybe it's because it brought to light how disgusting it is. How bloody dare you try and tell women we must say 'her penis.' There's no such thing

[@TetsugakuSan]

What a fucking awful life. Hate yourself and only have Noah to try and make you laugh.

[@Sammit00]

I remember some of my peers when I was a teenager half-jokingly asking if it was true that there were 60-something genders (I was identifying as non-binary to friends at the time, now I’m a trans man six years post transition). That was in about 2016 - I’d read the same thing coming from trolls online so I knew where the question had come from. I genuinely thought that line would stay dead and buried in the regrettable memories of all the people who had an embarrassing anti-SJW phase when they were sixteen, especially after everyone I knew who had one of those phases grew out of it. Never thought I’d hear the same line coming from the prime minister and the education secretary nearly ten years later. I think I’d be less insulted if they could come up with a dogwhistle that didn’t originate on 2010s 4chan, but either way it definitely predates that Isle of Man story. Honestly, this government being intellectually one step behind alt-right teenagers from a decade ago does sound about right.

[@yesitschelle]

I think that a few politicians didn't grow out of their alt-right teenager phase.

[@ribbrascal1065]

Anti-SJWs are increasing though

[@XercesBlues]

Seriously. These were jokes that children and teenagers were making a decade ago, and most have grown out of. It's insane the prime minister is repeating them on television now. I really never thought I'd hear unironic attack helicopter era lines again, but here we are.

[@TetsugakuSan]

There aren't

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

@@ribbrascal1065 why? What made you become anti social justice and human rights? Why ally yourself with far right hate groups?

[@SerenaCrocker]

I enjoyed this very much, but I feel like Labour got off too easy in this. They've been just as bad as the Tories on this issue and I don't for one second believe the slight rowing back that Annelise Dobbs is doing given her prior statements. Labour is institutionally transphobic, has a sizeable grassroots movement of transphobia, it's been a problem since at least the Corbyn years and has only gotten worse and more prominent under Starmer.

[@ohpurpled]

Starmer has that line that drives me mad to the effect of ‘we are a different party to 2019’ and it's like, you don't say? In 2019 Labour plausible stood for something, not saying it was perfect or anything like that, but still - stood for something. Labour today seemingly stands for nothing, and certainly has zero problem throwing trans people under the bus.

[@lorettanericcio-bohlman567]

This shouldn’t be brain surgery. Let every person live peacefully. Period.

[@ribbrascal1065]

I used to believe that. I don't anymore.

[@Celadonfae]

​@@ribbrascal1065 So you don't believe in letting people live peacefully? Doesn't make you sound too reasonable tbh.

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@Celadonfae These people don't believe in that for me. They want 1984. So, I don't anymore.

[@Celadonfae]

​@@ribbrascal1065 Elaborate. "These people"? Who, why, what the hell are you saying? If by this you mean you can't live peacefully while trans people exist, then that's a you issue clearly.

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@Celadonfae Transactivists demand all of society submit to their ideology. We resist.

[@Spamhard]

I'm a (mostly) cis woman who suffers from pretty severe PMDD. I was s* around 1 to 2 weeks a month. The process was simple; i went to my doctor, was given free hormonal pills, and my life has greatly improved. (granted I had to do my own research as the GPs had no interest in actually locating the source of my depression, i had to find out about PMDD myself). THE POINT BEING; I cannot imagine being told to wait 10+ years just to see someone who MIGHT agree to give me the hormones I desperately needed. I'd be de*d if they'd been witheld from me for so long, no doubt about it. My heart genuinely goes out to trans people who are treated like toddlers incapable of understanding their own body. There should be no need for all these extra steps. It's not only the humane thing to do, but it'd ironically save the NHS a lot of money to do away with these 'specialised' clinics, which you think the Tories would be all for, but their biogtry trumps money saving in this instance.

[@TetsugakuSan]

But they don't need the hormones. The Cass Review, led by Dr. Hilary Cass, highlights significant concerns about the use of hormone treatments for trans youth. The review found that the evidence supporting the use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones is weak and inconsistent. The report emphasizes the potential irreversible effects and long-term health risks associated with these treatments, including impacts on fertility, bone health, and psychosocial development Instead, the Cass Review advocates for a holistic approach to supporting transgender individuals, focusing on comprehensive psychosocial support and addressing underlying mental health issues. This approach aims to provide individualized care without relying primarily on medical interventions, which may not be the most appropriate or safe solution for many young people  . This holistic method could better support the overall well-being and development of transgender individuals, avoiding the potential harms of hormone treatments

[@Spamhard]

@@TetsugakuSan You mean the Cass review mentioned in this very video? The one that numerous Doctors, specilists and organisations have come out to say it's poorly researched and uses incorrect data etc? I don't NEED hormones either. Please explain to me how me needing hormones for my mental health is any different than a trans woman needed the same hormones for her mental health? Why would I be given them without question on whether I ACTUALLY need them, while someone else is forced to wait decades, all while both of us have the same symptoms; s* thoughts.

[@mantistoboggan1503]

It's genuinely awful just sitting around waiting for permission for your life to begin for no reason.

[@Spamhard]

@@mantistoboggan1503 Right. Sounds awful. Not trying to compare my plight to someone elses but I've had similar shit with NHS and trying to get ADHD diagnosis. Waited 5 years to finally be diagnosed, and now on an 'indefinite hold' waiting for meds, so far the wait has been 9months. My life has bascially been falling apart around me while I just sit around and wait for anyone to help. NHS have really been falling short on a lot of this shit recently (tories fault, not the failings of free healthcare).

[@Sl1mch1ckens]

Im so glad i came out at a time where i waited 3 months after my referal to be seen, im only 26 and i just cant relate to trans people that came out even a year after me its insane how bad the wait times got. My top surgery wait was a bit longer about 10 months but again i lucked out in the fact my doctor sent of my referal for that the same day i got my prescription for testosterone as technically they would like you to be on hormones 6 months before they do that but he knew by the time it went through that would be true my friend who got on t a month after me his doctor did make him wait the 6 months so he ended up getting surgery a full two years after me. Its insane. And now if i wanted my womb cut out because i was discharged from the gender clinic (they discharged loads of people to try and keep up with the demand) i would have to wait for 8 years to see them to get a referal despite that being something my local hospital could probably do. It would be much better if we just educated GPs and had localised care.

[@DansDiary123]

50% of children in care end up dead, in prison, or homeless within the first two years of leaving the system. Many of us are raped and abused further in said ‘care’ system; if these people give a fuck about kids then address the issues that stole my innocence and continue to steal the innocence of other children. I’m so sick of this fucking scapegoat when there’s very real harms happening to children as there have been for generations.

[@Spamhard]

Amen. Right wingers only 'care' about kids when it's to further their bigoted agendas. When it actually comes to supporting any sort of care work for children, they'd rather gut it entirely- which is literally what the Tories have been doing as they ensure local councils all over are forced to strip out even the most basic youth groups.

[@chrisbfreelance]

Two things can be true at once, you do know that?

[@nikobellic570]

This seems like a copy and paste comment posted under videos with a similar topic to deflect attention a and concern away from the destruction of female spaces​@@chrisbfreelance

[@ribbrascal1065]

How brazenly you lie

[@jsrodman]

What is "care" here. Can you please be specific?

[@Vulcanerd]

I mentioned this in the shorts clip, but I'll repeat it here. Other than all the things Nish just mentioned as well as the points made in the comments, it's also childish? There's a "You can't tell me what to do, we're comedians and nothing is off limits! You're not my dad/mum!" energy coming from these people and it's disheartening. There's also, a 'tHeSe aRe jUsT JoKeS' attitude, but it's been my experience that these are usually spouted by people as an excuse just to be dicks.

[@KattReen]

Also, is it really JUST a joke when the one telling it believes it with their whole heart?

[@cuteypetz]

It is really just great to see two trans people getting to talk on a platform about the things going on in the UK right now.

[@lkhvw2042]

I grew up under section 28 and i got called into the head teachers office because i wrote about a very tame, same sex kiss in a creative writing assignment. I was told i could not write anything similar in an exam setting as it would not be marked.

[@someonesomeone25]

They have always hated lgbtq+ folk.

[@billberndtson]

Abigail!!!!! My worlds collide again in the best f*cking way! 🤩

[@sit-insforsithis1568]

She’s still wearing contra as a skin suite

[@billberndtson]

@@sit-insforsithis1568 What's a "skin suite?" Sounds like a creepy hotel. If this was a slight on Abigail I'll remind you that you can't even spell "suit" properly and thereby cannot get your hate speech across to anyone. If this was anti-Abigail hate then your reply is like I imagine most of your interactions and experiences are - meaningless and impotent. If you are indeed a hate-filled monster in this way then I suspect that the "meaningless and impotent" part reflects on all manner of your life's facets and illustrates your insecurities and failings. If you need to bring people down as part of your personality I can personally assure you that you couldn't possible bring Abigail down. She's way too much woman for you. Or, she would be if you were the scumbag your reply indicates.

[@mikeharrison1868]

My younger child had been on the waiting list for six years, if I recall correctly. They are doing a language course and we're overseas, when they got a message to come in for an appointment. They explained the situation... but were unceremoniously dropped off the waiting list altogether. Heartbreaking.

[@MaterialSquid]

can't they be sterilised overseas?

[@mikeharrison1868]

@@MaterialSquid They're not being sterilised! And no, they are a British Citizen who needs medical attention. They should be treated in the UK by the NHS.

[@TetsugakuSan]

They don’t need hormones they need holistic help.

[@mikeharrison1868]

@@TetsugakuSan Holistic means whole. So you shouldn't rule anything out. Best wishes.

[@lkhvw2042]

I'm a healthcare professional and ive been trying to improve access for trans people. It's like banging my head against a wall. I left an online GP group due to transphobia. I've been working with a union and a rep from the union referred to trans patients as drug addicts. I've approached NHS england and the various consultations on gender incongruence guidelines and nobody engages with you. NHS england, Cass and co did not meet with any actual LGBT patients or healthcare groups. They're purposely ignoring WPATH and other worldwide evidence.

[@TetsugakuSan]

WPATH has been entirely and completely discredited -as you should well know if you are a health care professional. You will be forced to treat people under the outcomes of the Cass review or you should rightly be fired.

[@lkhvw2042]

@@TetsugakuSan just no, troll

[@lloroshastar6347]

How can these people be employed as experts when their practice is motivated by personal prejudice? Does the hippocratic oath mean nothing to these people?

[@roxyamused]

I mean, I am a drug addict, but that's because I didn't get hormones or be even given the option that transition was possible when I was younger.* The hrt didn't get me on heroin, hrt helped me get OFF heroin. I guess I'm just trading one addiction for another? This is absolutely the healthiest drug addiction out of all the drugs I had dependencies on. 12/10 life is much better. I, fortunately, live in an informed consent model state in Portland, OR. If I couldn't get hormones when I realized I needed them, and was told I'd have to wait 10+yrs, I'd probably be dead. Either from suicide or OD. I really hope the NHS gets its shit together and justice is brought. Thank you for working for the betterment of my UK sibling's healthcare. You are sorely needed. *forgot to say that drug addiction is higher in the trans community, in part because we're sort of forced to go through the wrong puberty and watch a slow moving body horror with the cognitive dissonance and pain of trying to accept it.

[@lkhvw2042]

@@roxyamused absolutely no shade to addicts. They are literally some of my favourite patients and in my experience have been some of the nicest people. The person who said this though meant it in a derogatory manner. Which I challenged them on. But it's a frigging uphill struggle changing the status quo within medicine (unless you're Dr Cass apparently...)

[@nikolaiivanovich2094]

Abigail is amazing - have been watching her work on Philosophy Tube since almost the beginning and it's just been getting better and better, and her acting is incredible. Frank is pretty great too.

[@nikolaiivanovich2094]

@@Susan_Dixon Is this intended to be anti-trans? Not sure what you mean by this?

[@zeppie_]

Transphobes are at a loss of what to attack with, so it seems they've resorted to simply hissing at people

[@batnacks]

I remember the 72 genders number coming from Facebook apparently having 72 different options for user gender identity, or at least that's what I was told several years ago. Crazy to see transphobic jabs from as far back as 2016 brought into mainstream politics.

[@oreolaw9911]

so it's definitely older than 2016 at least as old as 2010 I remember finding it on 4chan and reddit but I remember back then the numbers weren't always 72 they range anywhere from 60 to 100+

[@lloroshastar6347]

The fact the Prime Minister is repeating this lie on national television shows you what kind of a person he is.

[@darrens3]

@@lloroshastar6347 He's doing what all right wingers do; don't actually deal with the real issues, instead fabricate a fake culture war in order to 'fight' in that and declare yourself the ideological winner of a made up war. Its more effective than declaring a real war, and it riles up flat earthers into a frothing rage over nothing.

[@mechanicaldavid4827]

"72" is derived from anti-Islamic sentiment/stance of Western policy makers.

[@d20Fitness]

Saw Nish and Abgail and never clicked on something so fast in my life.

[@ALBUMOF2008]

Misogynist award 🥇

[@d20Fitness]

@@ALBUMOF2008 I'm perplexed. Am I getting this award? Are you explaining that this award exists? Is this comment to the wrong person or on the wrong video? Is it purely meant to confuse me?

[@AndrewWilliams-ry6tb]

You sound like a very lost soul.

[@MaterialSquid]

@@d20Fitness your getting the award because the presence of two biological males in a video exited you so much.

[@d20Fitness]

@@MaterialSquid that doesn’t really track. Obviously I reject your premises but even if I accepted them it wouldn’t lead to a conclusion of misogyny. Unless you think misogyny is liking men. Which is complete nonsense

[@olliejarvis1200]

Just finished watching Abigail's new video, and then this video releases?! Amazing timing, happy to see more platforming of these issues 🙌

[@5minuterevolutionary493]

You won me back with this episode, not intended as a backhanded compliment. It obviously comes at a critical time, not just in the UK. Here in the US my family is unsafe to travel across, I greatly appreciate you passing the mic to these crucial people.

[@sophiebobb4010]

Long time pod save the world watcher, swapping allegiances today for Abigail thorn though (what an absolute genius, fantastic to have abigail on the pod and everyone here should watch philosophy tube)

[@Seal0626]

Props to the comment moderators, you’re doing sterling work.

[@mrboost4186]

Explains the echo chamber

[@jsrodman]

@@mrboost4186 There is no need to give equal time to hate.

[@chrisbfreelance]

@jsrodman Transgenderism is an ideology so 'Transphobia' is subjective.

[@Seal0626]

@@chrisbfreelance Transgender people: [exist] Bigots: clearly this is an ideology

[@jsrodman]

So susprrising to get more hate speech from chrisbfreelance.

[@leesimpson6334]

We recently changed our Trans Sons name by Deed poll ... mostly because he wanted his chosen name on his GCSE certificates and became his birth name appearing on his prescriptions was bothering him.

[@gh0stcup]

Thank you for doing that for your child, he'll remember stuff like that for the rest of his life

[@anfearaerach]

I know more people know Abigail but Freddy is a big voice for trans men as well, glad you had two people on because trans men don't get a platform usually

[@not50productions]

ignorance was damaging in my first two decades of life. a bit of enlightened education would have a large impact on allowing the world to move forward.

[@alice1374]

Conservatives dislike education though. So it's very difficult to get them to understand that as it's a radical view of teaching and educating people

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@alice1374 Educating myself on this issue is what caused me to oppose it.

[@alice1374]

@@ribbrascal1065 For being better for society, or some other reason? I can't truly understand why you would oppose it, unless you're thinking of the very few bad cases in which things can happen both in prisons (which is usually by consent or in public toilets which isn't by consent typically)

[@ribbrascal1065]

@@alice1374 Better for society? The reverse is true. In multiple ways.

[@franimal86]

@ribbrascal1065 You’ve been misinformed, it seems

[@silverXnoise]

I start from the once non-controversial position that education and knowledge in search of truth is an objectively virtuous endeavor that should be allowed to evolve with contemporary society. It’s fallacious (and hilarious) to think that trends are started and/or reinforced by schools acknowledging them…or that restrictions on schools’ ability to make that determination will do anything other than promote the less productive and frequently dangerous outcomes of willful ignorance.

[@EdwardLindon]

There is, objectively, no such thing as objective virtue.

[@silverXnoise]

@@EdwardLindon I was a little concerned that my take was akin to “bumper sticker philosophy”, but you really showed me how it’s done with this lovely nugget of nihilism.

[@TheYahmez]

@@silverXnoise Identity is exclusive by definition; "I am not you". There are truths which are a great danger, corrosive to the falsehoods that many rely on to conjure this realm of differentiation. Things will stir or settle as they must.

[@CommunistLlama]

@@silverXnoise It's more antipositivism than nihilism, to be fair.

[@rachelharris7915]

This was bloody brilliant. Thank you for your #allyship. Kemi Badenoch has a lot to answer for 🏳️‍⚧️❤️

[@platonicdescartes]

I can't wait to watch this. Abigail is great. I love her channel and have been watching her for Philosophy even before her transition and then evolution into more of what was going on in her personal life.

[@billberndtson]

Agreed and same.

[@kitsworld]

I marched alongside Michael Cashman and Ian McKellen against Section 28 in the late 80s. It enrages me that we are heading back towards that dangerous territory again. Also, as an aside, I grew up under Section 28 and it didn't stop me from being gay, because guess what: BORN THAT WAY!

[@nigelfrench8894]

And gay men and lesbians are being dragged back due to the gender take over of our hard fought rights , venues and organisations.

[@sophiepooks2174]

The UK has always had a disposition to fascism sadly Oswald Mosley was going to be Britain's own version of the Fuhrer. these people have tried to erase any non heterosexual, queer, gay, lesbian, trans and gender variant humans throughout history.

[@Faus4us_Official]

I exist. That fact alone makes some people foam at the mouth. We haven't even had breakfast yet. I'm breaking reality like eggs for someone. I cook it for some who want to see what comes next, what potential lies witihin that egg. The few that give me a chance sit and wait. They don't assume the egg will be anything in particular yet. They just watch the process unfold and take in the experience. After some time a few of them eat it, some smell it, others just look. It's just an egg to them. The crazy few won't stop asking me what the egg is. I tell them it is just an egg but they insist it is an omelet, not an egg. How can I cook for a guest who can't see, hear, taste, touch and smell the egg? The egg exists but the eyes don't wish to see it. The eyes see the omelet but not the egg it came from. They deny the existence of the egg by declaring the existence of the omelet. Someone will understand this nonsense is not nonsense at all. It's relatable, literally and figuratively. To those few, flow like you've never flowed before. Mankind needs help. I think they're worth it.

[@barryledgister4496]

So say something that is nonsense to most people, but understood by the favoured few is your way of communicating to people who `foam at the mouth` due to your very existence...when you`ve just made it impossible for people outside your group to even understand what you`re saying?

[@Aarenby]

​@@barryledgister4496turn yourself in

[@Faus4us_Official]

@@barryledgister4496 I owe you nothing but am willing to give you everything. You didn't understand.

[@TheYahmez]

@@Faus4us_Official Why should the cloud long for the ocean? All reflections of no origin, with no end.

[@chloelayla017]

Thanks Coco. Thanks Nish. This really is a much needed discussion and I'm really grateful that you've used your platform to highlight the real issues regarding trans rights. One day, I hope our media and in turn politicians finally understand how harmful their rhetoric is.

[@titaniumteddybear]

I only discovered Abigail Thorn relatively recently. But she has become one of my favorite content creators.

[@GabrielHellborne]

This is just performative cruelty; kids'll learn all the need to know about the gender spectrum from Tiktok and KZbin regardless of what schools do or do not teach. this is just more disgusting picking on marginalized groups from a bunch of failures that somehow run our country in a vain attempt to distract from just how badly they [CENSORED] us.

[@zeppie_]

It starts with teaching in schools, then it becomes book publications, then it becomes news and independent work, then it becomes digital media. Please don't see this as a harmless move, this is step 1 of trying to make us disappear from the public

[@chrisbfreelance]

You've admitted it's social contagion and e-grooming indirectly. Marvellous.

[@GabrielHellborne]

@@chrisbfreelance I admitted no such thing. WTF are you talking about? It's not contagion or grooming, you turnip, it's people talking about their experiences online. It's how I learned more about it.

[@CharlotteSWeb-oh7ou]

@@chrisbfreelance You have nothing real to stand on so you revert to Nazi-style blood libel.

[@adridaplague-boi]

​@@chrisbfreelance"social contagion"- by your logic, enlightenment thought is social contagion. You're just demonizing the free exchange of ideas.

[@gingganggoolie]

A minor correction to what Freddie said regarding Deed Polls (I'm sure he knows this, and just misspoke). Legally changing your name is always done by Deed Poll, but you can choose whether or not to register it with the government. A Deed Poll is just where you write "I [old name] will now be known as [new name] and promise not to do fraud about it" and then sign it. No lawyer needed.

[@cfor8129]

You don't officially need one, but orgs will ask for one to change your name in their systems.

[@gingganggoolie]

@@cfor8129 I guess it depends what you mean by "change your name." You can introduce yourself as anything, but if it's anything official you need a Deed Poll

[@rshnewton]

You can change your name under English law by simply starting to use it, providing it is not to deceive or defraud. I think this is English common law. So I think Freddy is right. You can change your name more formally with either an unenrolled Deed poll or an enrolled Deed pool or a statutory declaration. Each has different drafting, fees, procedure and legal basis. None are complicated. Two are DIY. Most organisations in my experience want one of the formal documents. When I transitioned and changed my name and gender I met with a great deal of confusion and ignorance of their own procedures. I think that technically they can't demand it in the UK as, under GPDR, they have to keep accurate up to date records, but in practice they can and do.

[@Aranel_Alasse]

As a straight CIS woman with no children, this doesn't affect me so I know my opinion doesn't really matter, but teaching children about gender identity (and sexuality) in schools is a no-brainer. Children need information from a reputable source and in a safe environment for them to ask questions. If this isn't in school, then they may go to the internet and be misinformed. Learning about people with a different faith doesn't make you convert religion, learning about people with different cultures doesn't change your cultural identity, but it does make you more accepting of people who have a different life experience to you and hopefully a kinder human being. The exact same thing goes for learning about LGBT people.

[@chrisbfreelance]

You think they can't go on the Internet an be misinformed? The Internet allowed this radical ideology to spread in the first place.

[@brendadarling7743]

Quite ironic comment....getting your knowledge from the Internet also? The reputable sources in schools are activists. Teaching kids about stereo types(gender identity) is wrong. Let kids be. You heard the quote' give me the child at 7 and I'll give you the man'? That's indoctrination. Would you want kids to be taught scientology?

[@Aranel_Alasse]

@@brendadarling7743 Gender stereotypes are harmful, but that's not the same thing as gender identity. For example, my gender identity is female, but I have no interest in stereotypically female things like fashion and makeup - identity is personal and stereotypes are societal. By "reputable sources" I meant teachers as this is something that should be included in PSHE lessons (or whatever they call them these days). Like I said, it is possible to learn about other cultures and religions without being "indoctrinated". Teaching children about Ramadan or Diwali will not make them convert to Islam or Hinduism, but it will make them more understanding of their Muslim or Hindu friends. Learning about something is not the same as becoming that thing and the idea that telling children that Trans people are people too will somehow make them Trans is idiotic. There is too much hate in the world already, we don't need to teach the next generation to hate each other.

[@ReckluseMusic]

Bizarre you adopt the lefts language. You're a cis woman? But a trans woman is just a woman? Leave the cult! You're a woman drop the cis!

[@brendadarling7743]

@@Aranel_Alasse they are teaching kids in schools that trans is a fact..not that it's just a belief

[@o.steinman3855]

oh abigail came PREPARED. Formidable intellect

[@chrisbfreelance]

There was no opposing view, just affirmation.

[@TetsugakuSan]

The most worrying thing is that you’re so stupid you can’t see how stupid he is.

[@yusaki8064]

In terms is the waiting lists being particularly bad. I got referred to GIDS at 13. I didn’t see them until 14. The person I saw there, Anastasis Spiliadis, invented and coined the term of a particular therapy that is effectively conversion therapy for trans people (Gender Exploratory Therapy as Abigail mentioned) so I didn’t get any help at all really over the next 4 years. I was referred to the adult GIC about 6 months before my 18th birthday. And was discharged from GIDS around the same point. I didn’t see anyone at the NHS for 42 months. As an adult you have to basically spam them with emails just to make sure the people at the GIC even get them. And if you don’t you can’t get the communication to get your medication. I’ve known I was trans since I was 13 and at 21 I still haven’t touched any trans affirming medication because I can’t afford private healthcare and the NHS has dillydallied for 8 years. My dad who I recently found out is a transphobe, a homophobe and a biphobe, said he thinks that puberty blockers and hrt should be banned for everyone under the age of 25 because “they can’t know for sure yet”. And I tell you this with absolute certainty, if that is put into effect by the government, you will be seeing me self immolating in front of Downing Street before the day is up.

[@hks2377]

😔😔😔🤬🤬🤬

[@robertmarshall2502]

But we know that all children aren't permanently trans identifying. So how do you decide who is who? We've seen that puberty blockers have no positive effects on mental health outcomes or s-cide rates. Why did you want them? The best evidence we've got for hormones is basically the wide array of side effects we're starting to realise they cause. Unfortunately the studies claiming positive results don't separate out by sex and don't follow long term but it seems like testosterone gives an initial boost to libido and self-confidence/relieves anxiety which wanes and many trans identified females can't keep taking them due to side effects. With oestrogen there seems to be practically no evidence that they help mental health except that ppl get the "results" they want and some men seem to use them to kill an unwanted sex drive. The issue of waiting list is due to the explosion of trans identifying teen girls. Clearly this is not just because they're all innately trans. The issue is that many get pushed onto gender services and wait not receiving any mental health help in the meantime. It's part of a wider issue of poor mental health among our young ppl. Then they fixate on one "solution" and it becomes difficult to get them to actually take any other steps to alleviate their distress. This is then likely to result in poor long term outcomes because affirmative care has very poor clinical results. Something we have known since 1979 when they showed zero positive improvement.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

​@@robertmarshall2502You really are the sort of trabsphobe who loves to cite bad studies that support your narrative but ignore everything that doesn't huh?

[@ribbrascal1065]

Definitely not a mental illness.

[@robertmarshall2502]

@@itcouldbelupus2842 Lol I cite the highest quality stuff, I think you forgot that you're the ones complaining that the worst quality evidence wasn't included. Even when most of it was. Unfortunately for you guys the "narrative" of look at everything in context and come to an objective opinion is a real threat to your belief system. Which is why you guys systematically report and censor data that if read could change people's minds. It's why you warn anyone away from going and looking at the evidence for yourselves and why you regurgitate or sometimes don't even read but copy and paste poor quality articles that an average adult sees through easily. In your personal case I can think of few more obvious claimants to the title of most ignorant bigot. To you anyone who doesn't entirely agree with your unreality is a transphobe. People like you have watered down the word "transphobe" (originally coined by a man who disavowed himself of trans ideology before ending his life) to the point of meaningless. So congrats I guess. You might as well say heretic, unbeliever or infidel. What a ludicrous belief system.

[@tammielynn8273]

The whole conversation about a butch cis woman feeling she has to be a man is ideological bs in my opinion. I'm a cis, butch lesbian in my sixties and never identified as a man. Great podcast!

[@soniaess28]

Have a look at what is happening to young women.

[@franimal86]

@soniaess28 What is happening to young women? I’ll wait for your over generalization

[@MrHodoAstartes]

​@@soniaess28 Yeah. They're denied the puberty of their choosing. Horrible, just horrible.

[@soniaess28]

@@MrHodoAstartes do you even hear yourself? Nobody chooses puberty. Uninterrupted puberty is essential to become an adult. There is no wrong puberty, and humans cannot change sex.

[@soniaess28]

@@franimal86 young women are attempting to opt out of womanhood in increasing numbers. Tremendous harm is done to children by transgender medicine and we will make sure it stops.

[@ChrispyNut]

29:35 - RE: Changing name without deed poll, as an FYI, FWIW to whoever cares... Yes, you can be "known as" something you're not officially known by, however, just as with the birth certificate stuff, there's a bunch of "official" times when you have to use your official name, where birth certificate, deed poll, marriage certificate and it becomes quite annoying. I know this as I've been "known as" something different for almost 30 years and despite the two names being incredibly similar (and easy to see what happened, having simply added a hyphen (when my mum re-married)), some places and/or people get all officious. This has become increasingly significant as we've become more and more authoritarian and anti-immigrant, with companies wanting to do background checks etc... So for anyone wishing to have a known as, unless it's to be like a stage name or whatever, where it's more like a separate identity that can be a paper identity, change the name officially, it'll save you a bunch of frustration, time and loss of opportunity later in life.

[@PhilHoggart]

Thank you so much for this episode!!

[@rachaelgray1125]

Thanks for discussing this issue. It actually boggles the mind that 'gender ideology' is still a thing that's being peddled around. I personally learned about LGBT+ people from Tumblr because it wasn't something I was ever taught and it took me to my mid-twenties to discover Non-Binary which ended up being the identity that fit me best. It took a lot of introspection and self-discovery that could've been shortened considerably if it was taught to kids in school, and I do wish it was something I knew about earlier.

[@jsrodman]

It's become a cause celebre of authoritarian-leaning people who need something to latch onto to explain the harms capitalism is doing without thinking about the harms capitalism is doing. Or better said: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4fMnaOupNymi7M My preferred chestnut: "Anti-trans bigotry is the socialism of fools".

[@av_oid]

Tumbr has a lot to answer for.

[@sophia_comicart]

Born in 1987, I didn’t know I existed until I was 26 because I didn’t know trans people existed. None of this happens without the domination of religion world wide and isn’t going anywhere soon. The advantage is the number of those who support is in the general population is massive but governments don’t represent the people, the represent themselves. Be gentle with yourself. You got this.

[@StephMcAlea]

I didn't even know trans people existed until later and so didn't transition until I was 45. I might very looked female rather than a man in a dress. The only similar things in my youth were Danny LaRue and Les Dawson.

[@duncansonoryan]

I didn't know about trans people until I was an adult. I transitioned at 31, though I knew I was a boy from the time I was 3.

[@triciaamheiser785]

Trans history has been erased over and over again. At least you have transitioned. I wish you all the best with your personal metamorphosis.

[@pit_stop77]

Me too, growing up in rural Ireland the odd appearance of Danny larue on TV was the only exposure I had 😢

[@katywalker8322]

Similar age for me, but knew about trans people but also scared stiff to mention it at all.

[@TetsugakuSan]

Men who take hormones still look like men in dresses. Because they are

[@TheRogueDM]

Abigail missed a trick by not stating, "Only cis deal in absolutes."

[@solitarymaninblack]

At work a few people were offended over having to wear pronoun badges. A former manager showed herself to be a terf. Mentioned the "attack helicopter" nonsense.

[@TetsugakuSan]

Surely being compelled to wear them is offensive?

[@BadgerGirl]

this best way I've found to legally deal with those kinds of people is set perfectly legal hard work boundaries. you work to the contract when it comes to them, no extras, no privileges nothing that you don't have to do or give to them that isn't contractually binding.

[@nikobellic570]

Have you looked at it from her perspective before labelling and dismissing her. Just for intellectual honesty's sake listen to feminist arguments on single-sex spaces. If anything, it will strengthen your conviction

[@nikobellic570]

Have you looked at it from her perspective before labelling and dismissing her. Just for intellectual honesty's sake listen to feminist arguments on single-sex spaces. If anything, it will strengthen your conviction

[@BadgerGirl]

@@nikobellic570 i have and its rubbish judith butler has a pretty good takedown if you care to read it.

[@depreseo]

Wonderful to see Abigail here! And also, thanks for not letting this one get swiped to the side because sunak decide to declare a general election. You mentioned the government education policy as being "England and Wales", but as this is a Tory education policy it's actually England only (education is a devolved mater all around the UK). Also, the magical number of "72" I'd say is a tactical trigger, with "72 genders" sounding A LOT like "72 Virgins", thereby drawing mental parallels between "radical trans pundits" (as the conservatives press may call them, as well as many other names) with the islamic terrorist groups that gained headlines and political clout (via islamaphobia) up until the mid-2010's and the realisation by media pundits that "islamaphobia is overplayed and no longer chic." I mean a lot of the rhetoric is the same - "online brainwashing" (and other nasty terms), "the death of childhood innocence", controlling what should be taught in schools and asking teachers to report on any "suspicious" talk between students.

[@Porcelaingoblin]

As a non binary person in the UK I get so anxious about being visibly queer, especially in public spaces, I’ve had things thrown out of cars and vans at me and I see it directly correlated to the hatred spread in British media

[@barryledgister4496]

Ah, but the British media is overwhelmingly left-wing. Just like this channel. It`s the Left who are the problem.

[@Aarenby]

​@@barryledgister4496that is patently false

[@prestonbruchmiller497]

I’m living in Texas and use the bus as my primary form of transportation and have had to stop wearing dresses on the bus after dark after having one person spit on me and another person threaten me with a knife.

[@TetsugakuSan]

@@prestonbruchmiller497 how about you don’t dress as a women?

[@silver4831]

​@@TetsugakuSanHow's that any of your business?

[@alice1374]

I kind of feel as though its also down to the fact there's widespread hormone therapy shortages, though they don't openly admit this is a factor in them heavily trying to restrict trans people from living their lives Masquerading as the truth but never wanting the truth to be known it feels like

[@jenbdiamond]

Thank you for this interview! I love Abigail so much, and I'm glad to meet Freddy!

[@RedSpade37]

If you watch the trailer for Star Wars: Acolyte very closely (and as Abigail says, "If you're very clever") you may be able to guess who Abigail's character is... (And also why she's so secretive about it...)

[@no-ah3185]

It’s the first time I’ve come across your channel. I’m very glad I did, it was such a thorough and informative discussion. A rarity today. Thank you for your work!

[@janeannchristensen3808]

Gen X comedians like Carr and Gervais can't adapt to the new generations and their online humour, and they won't step aside

[@mothturtle7897]

Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong.

[@chrisbfreelance]

The current younger generation have never been so thin skinned, they've been indoctrinated by concepts such as the glorification of vicitimhood and oppression envy.

[@jsrodman]

I don't think it really has to do with generations. I think it has to do with fame and success allowing you to insulate yourself from criticism and thus become reactionary. My actual baby boomer mother is far more progressive than many people my age, even if she puts her foot in it sometimes. And plenty of people a generation younger than me are going down dark roads.

[@pit_stop77]

Thank you for dealing sympathetically with this subject. I transitioned in 2010, knowing the tories would damage the NHS, it took me three years to get surgery, quick compared to now. But i had a great GP too. I agree the NHS controlled my life, (or tried to) i wanted breast augmentation and was threatened with being kicked off the list if i did it...

[@moartems5076]

MtF?

[@Lilbee730]

@@moartems5076 Wanting breast augmentation does suggest that, yes. Either way, it's not relevant to their comment.

[@chriswalker7632]

(Sorry, just waiting 18 plus hours for my Mum to be processed through A&E...) For my sins, I have actually taken a look at the Cass Report. I'm not an expert. In a nutshell, it read like a report into Climate Change written by someone who was a Climate Change denier who wouldn't even accept that the 'Climate' (akin to 'Gender') even exists - instead they'd only accept framing things in terms of the 'Weather' (akin to 'Sex'). The vibes I got were that they, ironically, dismissed the concept of a 'Male' or a 'Female' [as was brought up in this pod cast] (nothing new to anyone who has seen failed legislation that has tried to ban Same Sex Attraction by ignoring ‘Male’ or ‘Female’ Genders, or seen arguments that Transgender People will eliminate Sex Based Discrimination Protections), and placed an emphasis on Gender Identity being related to Sexual Orientation and 'Differences in Sexual Development' (DSD) as a result of exposure to Sex Hormones throughout a person's lifetime (from the womb through, just after birth, and through puberty to adulthood) which they framed in terms of 'Gender Roles' rather than 'Gender Identity'. They don't explicitly say this, but from that you can dismiss the existence of neuroscience evidence for the existence of Transgender People and Gender Identity (as part of a 'Gender Critical' stance). And the language they used didn’t differentiate between Transgender People and Transvestites - this is because they only considered the ‘Objective Facts’ of a person’s ‘Gender Expression’, for example in changing the Gender of their Pronouns or Name, rather than any improvements in their ‘Subjective’ Well-Being from doing so and having it ‘Affirmed’ by others - which is how Gender Services in the UK have always operated to be honest (in the past Transgender People could only get Hormone Replacement Therapy if they lived for 1 to 2 years as a Transvestite first). And so this is basically a reaction against the whole concept of ‘Gender Affirmative Care’ by biasing ‘Facts’ over ‘Feelings’. So that was disappointing, and I can see why some experts have dismissed the report as being no better than a GCSE standard, which is a bit harsh but I see where they are coming from. And many have argued as a result that the Cass Report just feeds into rhetoric used against Transgender People in the Culture War.

[@TetsugakuSan]

So clearly you’re not a medical professional, nor clever enough to read.

[@eilidhsykes2295]

aaaa love Abigail best guest yet! :) xx

[@eleanormorgan5400]

This is a fantastic conversation, thank you

[@cathunsworth7915]

Fantastic episode! I was already a fan of Philosophy Tube, and can recommend it to anyone who enjoyed listening to Abigail. And Coco’s last question completely brought the fun to what can be quite a stressful discussion. 😂

[@TomCantDance]

Always wonderful to see Abi appear in other videos, and it was great to discover Freddie as well. I've been trying to fight this fight from inside the NHS in the hopes that people will stop dying on the waiting list for care.

[@robertmarshall2502]

Who is dying on the waiting list? The stats from the Tavistock show very low levels of that kind of tragedy, far lower than anorexia for example. The systematic reviews also show that "affirmative care" doesn't help with this either. The only longitudinal studies show higher rates post-op.

[@TomCantDance]

@robertmarshall2502 care to link those stats from the Tavistock?

[@fazzieman674]

people are dying from not getting multiple treatments in the NHS, it needs fixing wholesale not simply because one group shouts thew loudest.

[@BadgerGirl]

@@TomCantDance he doesn't have them because there subject to the 100 year lock, there's been FOI requests bounced to get them for that reason so no one has the full stats yet on how many trans people the NHS has killed by burocracy, one day we will find out and people will be held accountable though

[@jsrodman]

@@fazzieman674 It is true that the NHS is in a very bad situation and many people are waiting too long for care. It is *also* true that while cis people are waiting weeks or months too long for care, trans people are waiting decades. Two things can be true.

[@maryoberschlake1988]

So pleased you have Ms Thorn on the pod.

[@simonberthiaume6585]

Abigail Thorn is wonderful. Intelligent, forthright, funny, and beautiful.

[@chrisbfreelance]

He's not going to sleep with you.

[@simonberthiaume6585]

​@@chrisbfreelanceGrow up.

[@barryledgister4496]

`He`s `forthright`? Apart from lying about being a lesbian woman?

[@guilhermeluispereira]

Love Abigail!

[@rw9207]

As a Trans-female, I moved back to the UK, from the US, because of the hostility being express through such things as "Bathroom bills". Now on my return, I'm greeted by Rishi Sunak echoing the same far right troupes as Trump! I thought my own country would be safe. but, apparently, there's no sanctuary for trans-folk.. How would I be able to got a job, if I can't use the bathrooms?

[@barryledgister4496]

One, Trump has been busy with a trial and verdict, I don`t see how his `far right troupes` have been hitting the headlines and having influence. You may mean deSantis, and just forgot which Republican you needed to insult. You can`t expect to want to live in the pretense of being a `woman` without that giving issues in a society where 99% of the population just don`t try and deceive people and present themselves as their birth-sex. Plenty of places offering jobs give the option of gender neutral bathrooms, if that`s something you`re worried about. Yes, I know, bathroom issues are up there with lynching, apartheid, and bussing when it comes to oppression, but I`m sure you`ll survive.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

​@@barryledgister4496trans people are not deceiving anyone. Trans women live authentically as women. They have done for centuries

[@Aarenby]

​@barryledgister4496 you need to see trial for you many many rapes

[@barryledgister4496]

@@itcouldbelupus2842 They`re not living authentically as women. That`s absurd. They`re living as men deluded that they are `women`. But they`re nothing of the kind. You`re one of the keyboard warriors who will spout this nonsense on-line but wouldn`t ever dare say this to anyone irl.

[@hps362]

It's insane how quickly Abigail can just eradicate every foundational entrenched notion of how anything works in our system. How does she do that?

[@barryledgister4496]

If Abigail`s done that, how is he making a living from acting, and Philosophy Tube, and hoodwinking people into believing he`s a lesbian? He`s just another privileged white middle class nobody gaming the system which works so badly it feeds, clothes, educates, and gives a fantastic standard of living to 60 million people./s

[@StephenTurnerVlogs]

I needed to hear this. I've learnt a bit, but now important, I feel a bit better about constantly arguing with people who don't want to know the reality of queer and trans lives.

[@ambientjohnny]

"A new long-term study from Germany suggests that the majority of young people diagnosed with gender identity disorders do not continue to identify as such over time. The study examined insurance data over five years, revealing that more than half of young people aged 5-24 across every age subgroup diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" no longer had the diagnosis after five years. Specifically, the desistance rate was 72.7% in 15- to 19-year-old females and 50.3% in 20- to 24-year-old males. Among the whole group of 5- to 24-year-olds, only about 36.4% of those diagnosed in 2017 still had the diagnosis five years later, indicating that more than 63% desisted. One of the strengths of this study is its comprehensive collection of outpatient billing data for all legally insured persons in Germany, providing a large and representative sample. Additionally, the long observation period from 2013 to 2022 offers valuable insights into long-term trends and changes in diagnosis rates."

[@jennosyde709]

@@ambientjohnny The German study does not distinguish between the ICD F64 code subscales, meaning it does not distinguish between gender nonconformity and active trans identification. Not all subcodes under the F64 code even qualify someone for gender-affirming care, much less for minors. When you actually look at research [McGregor, 2023] which distinguishes between F64 subcodes and distinguishes trans-identification from gender nonconformity, the desistence rate drops to around 5%. Among those who began any form of transition (including just puberty blockers with no HRT or surgery), that number drops to just 1%.

[@seraaron]

I think Abigail is so right to be angry about how we've been treated by the NHS for years, and I though it was incredibly poignient of her to compare the situation directly to the infected blood scandal. About how we have people going on the news every day at the moment saying stuff like "this should never happen again..." but the truth is that that level of malpractice is being experienced again and again by trans people everyday-between denying us bodily autonymy, waiting lists that can range from 10-26 years, and covertly reintroducing conversion therapy-it feels everyday like the government would just prefer it if we all killed ourselves-and yet nobody is talking about that when they bring up so-called 'trans issues', they would rather misogynistically debate "what a woman is"... Thank you for doing this episode Nish and Coco. It's so so important that we change the narrative whenever 'trans issues' are brough up. We need more trans voices speaking up, and we need justice for the trans and nonbinary siblings we've already lost.

[@chrisbfreelance]

Please explain how discussing what a woman is, is misogynistic?

[@ribbrascal1065]

​@@chrisbfreelanceThey are totally inverted in everything

[@Snuzzled]

​@@chrisbfreelance How is it not misogyny to define a woman by her body parts?

[@chrisbfreelance]

@Snuzzled Biology is objective so it's absolutely one way it can be done. You could define me as a man the same way, and I'm not going to view it as a character assassination.

[@Snuzzled]

@@chrisbfreelance What, objectively, biologically, defines all women and only women?

[@izzy0052]

This is extremely disheartening to hear about. How easily Human Rights can slip out of the grasp of the people. Don't ever take your rights for granted, and never stop fighting. Over at Portugal where I live, conversion therapy was considered medical malpractice by the Order of Medical Doctors in 2013, and it was finally criminalised by Parliament last year. Since 2013 it was something you could lose your medical licence over, now it's also something that can make you serve jail time. Not saying everything's perfect, Portugal has a long way to go societally, but the path to progress is there.

[@saoirse2963]

Indeed, the human rights of women to safety and dignity have been taken away from them, the right to freedom of speech and thought has been taken to.

[@izzy0052]

@@saoirse2963 don't know what you're talking about, women still had rights last time I checked. And as for freedom of speech, you can say whatever you want, you're just not exempt from having other people calling you a bigot. You are free to speak, but not free from the consequences of your speech!

[@collyernicholasjohn]

Trans affirmation IS conversion therapy- homophobic conversion therapy. 12 peer-reviewed studies show 60 - 95% of gender non-conforming youth become comfortable in their bodies post-puberty, most gay - but not before many have been sterilised by hormones, hysterectomy or castration.

[@robertmarshall2502]

@@izzy0052 Are single-sex female spaces a right that females have? Or have they been destroyed across the West? Despite this being part of recognised Human Rights back to the 40s.

[@Aarenby]

​@@collyernicholasjohnthat is not true rapist

[@alexhiggins5911]

Thanks for doing this episode. What a welcome antidote to so much misinformation

[@user-jn4sw3iw4h]

The motivation behind the "72 genders"-thing is a search term thing. As long as there is a term no-one actually arguing in good faith would use, but is known enough it is what people who start doubting, would look for. They control the conversation. Not unlike "black on [insert color here] crime"

[@Emily-mk9lc]

It's a shame Ricky Gervais doesn't identify as a good comedian

[@jsrodman]

Super glad to see the links to the trans saferty network are there.

[@mooxim]

Understanding gender identity and gender expression as self determination and bodily autonomy issues really helps clarify it a lot. I've been so hung up on respecting the NHS's authority and "efforts to offer free treatment to people suffering from the illness of gender dysphoria" that I've never really understood it for what it is.

[@claudiamueller5475]

I really enjoyed this episode so much, very informative, very interesting, thank you

[@CorvidCastle]

The 72 different genders thing reminds me of a screenshot of some reddit comment that was making the round a number of years ago, where someone was like "there are [n] genders and every time you complain about it we add 5 more" and then someone said some dumb bullshit and the original comments said "now there's [n+5]" I don't remember what number n was, but i do feel like it was somewhere near 72. I don't actually think this is the case, but it would be very funny if they got that number from some joke reddit comment from years ago

[@pixelsthered]

The number is 64 because when you add 5 it becomes 69

[@robertstull8759]

Nish, you're sense that accountability is important to democracy is SPOT ON. We cannot have a truly functional democracy without government officials being held accountable. And I mean LEGALLY accountable - whether that's civil, criminal, or both. And the higher up in power the most strict that accountability should be. The main reason that we've seen people losing faith in institutions is because of there is no accountability. And that's been an intentional effort by conservative political actors on both sides of the pond. It feeds into their authoritarian ideology that "strong" people deserve to wield political power however they wish. We have to have robust, transparent mechanism to hold all government officials accountable for their actions.

[@barryledgister4496]

There is accountability all the way to the top...if you don`t like a government, you elect another one. If you don`t like your M.P. you throw them out etc etc. We don`t have a system that allows governments to do just as they wish. Conservatism is about the strength of the individual to make their decisions, it`s the Left who think people are weak and vulnerable and need government to take care of them. Left-wing governments are rarely in power and when they are, they get thrown out because they are pushing for a society people just do not want. People hardly notice there is a Conservative government as they just let you get on with your life. Nish is aiming at a young audience who just follow like sheep his immature ideas that conservative is bad and labour is good...how come for every 1 year of labour rule, there have have 3 of conservative in the past 79 years? Conservatives are way more popular historically.

[@em_yu]

i loved this conversation, thank you

[@josephsager9425]

That "72 genders" phrase immediately perked my ears up. That immediately registered to me as the thing from Facebook, which has been a talking point for years. Two examples of those genders are... gay male and straight male. Yes, that's right - while labeled "genders", it was always a misunderstood drop-down that contained several variations of male, female, gay, bi, and straight. Not. Genders.

[@Aarenby]

Is that the thing that also showed relationship status?

[@josephsager9425]

@@Aarenby yes

[@KristineMaitland]

I'm watching this in Toronto, Canada 🇨🇦 and going arrrrrgghh. We expect to see antipathy against the trans community in the US, and we are seeing this here in Canada. Australia, too. As a bisexual cis-woman of colour ally, I am having trouble just keeping up. Arrrrrrgghhh.

[@SarastistheSerpent]

Same. As a cis but bisexual Canadian myself, it’s horrifying seeing anti-trans rhetoric creep its way into Canada. Thankfully it doesn’t seem to be as widespread here yet as in the U.S. or UK, but o suspect it’s going to get a lot worse, especially around the next election

[@chrisbfreelance]

Oppression Olympics.

[@eastvandb]

@@chrisbfreelance Why trot out a phrase so dismissive of injustice and inequality in this conversation? No context, nothing in the post your commenting on to prompt it. Just random trolling?

[@jsrodman]

@@eastvandb It's axiomatic for these people. Oppression can't be a legitimate issue, because that would make them feel bad.

[@eastvandb]

@@jsrodman absolutely

[@Relisysification]

Thank you for making the exact episode i was hoping for and didnt expect to ever get And it releasing the weekend if Birmingham pride in which multiple people felt comfortable in coming out as themselves (sometimes for the first time in public)

[@oceanNmotoWoman]

I am incensed that this is the state of healthcare in the UK. I thought us Trans People had it bad here in the US. My work-supplied healthcare plan made me wait 6 months to see a psychiatrist to ascertain my commitment to being my Authentic self before the let me see an Endocrinologist to get prescribed HRT. And I thought that was bad.

[@alex_blue5802]

I would like to advocate for trans justice too. I dont know exactly how to do it, but we have to start somewhere

[@Mandy-dy7nj]

I saw Ricky Gervais about a decade ago trying out poking fun at physically disabled people. It wasn't funny then and obviously it didn't pan out for him so he's moved onto another marginalised group, trans people, and he's giving them a kicking instead. I was a big fan but not since then. I don't appreciate influential people punching down. It's just not funny to me and it can be downright dangerous to people who are already marginalised. The best comedy is punching up ie holding the powerful to account, which is why right wing comedy currently is generally not very funny.

[@ReckluseMusic]

But trans jokes are punching up?

[@Mandy-dy7nj]

@@ReckluseMusic Are trans people as a group rich and/or powerful? I would suggest not, particular in view of the fact that their rights to medical care is being eroded right in front of our eyes.

[@ReckluseMusic]

@@Mandy-dy7nj Every single institution in the western world supports and walks in lock step with the trans ideology all the way up to government. People are shut down, cancelled, fired for even expressing a different opinion on the matter. So yeah I'd say they hold power definitely!

[@antonydavis2764]

@@Mandy-dy7njtrans people have the same rights as everyone else. What is contested is their right to enter single sex spaces (primarily men wanting to access female only spaces).

[@Mandy-dy7nj]

@@antonydavis2764 That 'contested' right is a by product of refusing to admit that neither sex nor gender is binary and our culture trying to impose a binary solution on non binary people . And it's far more than refusing to admit trans women into women's spaces - it's harder than ever for trans people to access medical support now. The idea that we are protecting women by refusing to allow trans women into female only spaces, while forcing trans men to use those same spaces is illogical. Forcing trans men to use women's spaces actually makes it easier for cis men to access female only spaces by claiming they are trans. So we know that safety argument is incoherent and illogical. So we have a situation where an incoherent and illogical argument is made to prevent trans people using the spaces that match their experienced gender, and thus preventing them from social transitioning while at the same time we are working to prevent them medically transitioning as well. So what rights are trans people allowed to have?

[@60508]

As an agender Ace person I simply didn't know it was an option due to growing up under section 28 and spent most of my life trying to perform masculinity homosexuality and heterosexuality which made me a generally unpleasant and very unhappy person I can't believe that we're back here so soon. On the plus side I find it an easy way to identify dangerous people in our society.

[@charliecampbell2292]

im currently on the waiting list for trans care, the clinic im waiting on is only seeing patients from 2019

[@encinosarah]

Great discussion. Thank you.

[@rikl9212]

Thank you so much for this Nish & Coco ❤

[@dorothea_walland]

i feel you Coco!! (as a wife of a programmer, i try to avoid this content as well) this would be how i sound when i try to chip in a conversation about star wars! 😂😂❤❤❤

[@estellelecoz2961]

Great episode, Thank you !

[@heythisanimalcantalk]

i love nish more and more every day