What Do We Mean When We Say Indiepocalypse?

[@jabcog]

As an indie developer, I got more out of that talk than any other uploaded in the last couple of months. Thanks for making these public gdc!

[@carsonskjerdal473]

They should do this talk again, as a lot has changed in 4 years!

[@pritamdebnath5656]

Would you please share what has changed? I am new to this and your perspective might be helpful

[@carsonskjerdal473]

@@pritamdebnath5656 I'll maybe watch again later to remember my reason but the number of Indie games released per year is ridiculously higher.

[@Mafon2]

* 8 years.

[@Caitlin_TheGreat]

Just a regular gamer/consumer here, watching out of curiosity. But I've heard rumblings of even triple A game sales dropping. And I think Armin hits the nail on the head at 31:06 which is that with the glut of _ALL_ games getting deep price cuts during sales events, that many savvy gamers have wound up with a stockpile of games. This used to just be a problem on Steam--which I haven't even used recently because I've got around 100+ games on there that I haven't touched and don't want to add to it, but also because a lot of games wound up with very buggy PC versions. And so I've focused more on console--which I suppose has always been a preference anyway. And would you know what? The online store for PS4 has been having some very similar sales. And as a result I have probably 30 games in a backlog on my PS4. So I have no sane reason to buy any new games. And they're almost all pretty dang good. So, that's 30 games on PS4 and roughly 100 on PC that I haven't even played. If I manage to extricate myself from the hype machine of game journalism, I might successfully keep myself from buying into the next gaming generation, because game-wise I'm completely set for a while, especially with Triple A games largely being open-world time-sinks that can easily last me a quarter of a year if it's decent. I played FO4 for almost a full year on and off, and I still have at least half of The Witcher 3 to finish off. Time is in quite short supply, especially if you consider the average gamer's age and that he or she is going to be spending most of their time at a job, taking care of day-to-day chores, and various other life necessities before being able to spend any time with a game. And so even with the psychological trickery of the hype machine, it becomes a critical manner to be selective about what gets to take up that precious little time.

[@Wolfmoss1]

I'm curious to know, 3 years on, how did you go making it through your game backlog?

[@NearlySurrounded]

Brilliant group of speakers. As a new developer, I can't express how appreciative I am of the shared wisdom of these panelists. Thank you, guys!

[@williamwallace234]

The beatings will continue until moral improves

[@slowgaffle]

daddys home

[@USBEN.]

Ahahahahaa

[@dumbr457]

To expand on Jeff Vogel's point: you OWN the property. I've been buying and playing his games since 1999. Those games are done and require very little work to port and maybe update some art. When he ported his games to iOS, he didn't have to spend much money, and I happily paid for the game for the third time in 20 years. Much higher profit margin.

[@ObeseWizard]

Funny watching this now when they're talking about if you should say "Should you ever say that you won't put your game on sale for x amount of time" (near about 55:30 ) and looking at how well that's worked for Factorio. I would've waited for Factorio to go on sale before buying it, but I saw that they refuse (understandably) to put the game on sale. So I bought it right away. I love how the main guy questioned the other devs with "why not???"

[@polatrite]

56:20 Factorio has never had a sale, and even includes in the FAQ that they don't currently plan to include the game in Humble Bundles or sales.

[@voltcorp]

well the guy said to try it and they are trying it haha

[@Wohodix]

@@voltcorp factorio is still succeeding without sale. but yeah its a very unique case : unique gameplay, great art, infinite replayability, very stable. Those factor create a great community that push the game forward.

[@TheGoblinoid]

three years later, we've had Sonic Mania, Cuphead, Owlboy, undertale, necrodancer, etc, etc. Indies are only going up, so far. Also, I play Avernum. You rock, dude!

[@KyleClements]

What a great group of speakers. Jeff is full of great one liners.

[@eloujtimereaver4504]

I am glad they included Exile in the list, since it is when I first played their games, and what I still call Avernum in conversation.

[@plume852]

On one hand I feel discouraged, but on the other hand I can't imagine any of the "indie pioneers" felt particularly hopeful when they were doing their thing. For example Team Meat released SMB in the same year as Bioshock 2, CoD: Black Ops, Mass Effect 2, Fallout: New Vegas and a whole ton of other mega-competitors. Even if the early indie developers had it easy in terms of independent competition, the indie market as a whole didn't have nearly the reputation and legitimacy it does now. Different challenges at different times I guess.

[@mujina93]

Takeaways: make a game that's truly unique and different, that's an insta-click/insta-buy, otherwise you will be drowned in the sea of indie games, or you can at most hope to sell your game at the next Steam sales wave, in which it will have to compete in any case with famous games on sale. Don't make "medium sized" games, often having 2x the content does not equal having 2x revenue. And don't publish blindly on all platforms, but target your game very well. And have 300 backup plans if you live on indie games cause the market is volatile. And hire people to do PR properly, perhaps look even into publishers. And the most important takeaway that was never mentioned: even if you check all the boxes, you need a lot of luck.

[@CloakedC]

Finji talk was great

[@Meitti]

Theres a strange satisfaction seeing that sites like IGN, Kotaku etc. have little to no impact on sales. Consumers have grown wiser it seems. Well, that and the rise of youtube lets players.

[@MrCorrectify]

3 Years later and now it's been 5 years since I've read a gaming journal.

[@benjoe1993]

Maybe I'm not well educated enough in game business stuff but isn't getting a publiser make you non-indie? I thought independent meant that you don't depend on a publisher...you know, like "INdependent" as in "not depending". Correct me if I'm wrong. Other then that, great talk about the business stuffs!

[@roblochon]

"Indie" can also be seen as integrity in (game) design.

[@benjoe1993]

roblochon So basically being indie nowadays is just saying your are indie. I see. Like Klei entertainment...they klei-m to be an indie studio. (Sorry-not-sorry for the horrible pun.)

[@roblochon]

Well, it's that way with games because they need to make money and they don't have any other choices. If you compare to Indie music, they have way more avenues to generate money (gigs, fan gear ...). If you compare to Indie films ... well I there aren't many true Indie films by your definition. edit : the pun was great :)

[@mrpernickety3]

I believe that is the best definition of 'indie'. There's definitely an analogue between the way indie is used in gaming and the way indie is used in music and the degradation of the original term.

[@Meitti]

Have to wonder why one should insist to be called "indie dev" by that point, since the name itself isnt really going to go and get you more sales. Nordic countries and eastern Europe have plenty of small-team developer studios that can only be described as a small group of friends, yet they dont necessarily call themselves indie.

[@Steeeeeeve]

How can you tweet questions if your phone is switched off 🤔

[@wgt3623]

By turning it on.

[@monsi3346]

It means on silent, not off I think

[@TheGoblinoid]

Boom

[@SoilentGr33n]

The fact that 62 people upvoted this comment is concerning.

[@ichitensho7075]

its more of like how its been phrased but i still had the" this is stupid kind of feeling" lol

[@kazriko]

I put Magic Circle on my wishlist today. I'll probably forget about it.

[@udalix]

So many low quality AAA titles is spawning more and more indies.

[@sirgoogus4005]

Minecraft.

[@Incurafy]

I wanted to like this video for Jeff's "have a great day kids!" alone, lol.

[@CorruptedBacon]

More candy for Jeff 2017

[@sophiathekitty]

9:10 i didn't even know there was an indiepocalypse..... and the first thing i'm hearing from the speaker is how they're not gonna use that term and because it's not happening....

[@ash12181987]

I appreciate looking back at this now, when Night in the Woods knocked it out of the park on release.

[@LucasStraub]

There's any other talk with Rebekah Saltsman (from FINJI)? Her talk was really good

[@krux02]

51:47 it is said that the tools to make games are so easy. But that's wrong. Making games is not easy, no matter how good the tools are.

[@chikin8895]

Well this was dream crushing.

[@chikin8895]

SBLux Thank you, I will!

[@TypetyTypeType]

I think you're right.

[@chikin8895]

***** Lol yeah honestly your argument is so inaccurate but i'm just too lazy to type out why you're wrong

[@TheGoblinoid]

Now, with the benefit of hindsight, we can say things only got better for indies.

[@GangiFilms]

seriously i know LOL

[@iamarugin]

Hello from the 2019, when average indie game on steam makes less than 100$

[@MrCorrectify]

To be fair, the average indie game on steam is an asset swap from a third world country where 100 dollars is a lot.

[@cyberpunkdenton9497]

@@MrCorrectify I'm from a lower middle class family living in a third world country and i can promise you that 100$ isn't that much really. Also, don't know why you consider an average asset flipped game to be from a third world dev? "To be FAIR, the average indie game on steam is an asset swap from third world country where 100 dollars is alot." Why say that when you have no intent to be fair in the first place? Consider this, it takes 100$ to publish a game on steam, so even if what you say is true, the asset flipping devs from the third world country, on an average, will be breaking even, not making a lot of money. And the fact that you got more likes then OP is just saddening. Edit: a word.

[@franktavis]

@@cyberpunkdenton9497 You are right, that comment is bullshit.

[@jakubrpawlowski]

Wow amazing presentation! Thank you for sharing!

[@SCHMIELSHOW]

I think announcing you won't do a sale might help. The fact that Vlambeer stated they won't put Nuclear Throne on sale is the main thing that's going to drive me to purchase it for full price. Otherwise it was going to be a "wait for the sale" game for me.

[@phillipgonzalez9776]

I googled 'spider 1 indie game' and 'spider 2 indie game' and all that came up was some random spiderman games

[@turntapeover5749]

The way they talk about the Indiepocalypse and the circumstances around it remind me a lot of the crash of 1983 where the market became overcrowded with garbage. One thing that is not mentionned a lot (im guessing because they depend on Steam to live a lot and you don't bite the hand that feeds you) but I think Steam quality control is barely existent. Maybe another store front is gonna issue lockout chips to indie devs like Nintendo did back then so we can get only the gems and get rid of the thrash.

[@leeh7]

Everybody talks so fast here, but good info!

[@HMK-nh4ft]

“Thanks for being awake at 10:00 on a Tuesday.” Me: *wake at **9:00** on a Thursday* “Am I a joke to you?”

[@Link-ho8yq]

I wonder, now, has the situation changed much in the last 3.5 years? Have there been subsequent talks on this matter?

[@Walshy1Jojo]

I love all the Pugs in Finji's section! =) Great info all round.

[@tartiflette6428]

So much "like" in this conference! Subliminal message?

[@cryora]

That's the way Californians talk before like Myspace or Facebook.

[@jsrodman]

This video reminded me to buy several of these games.

[@kevinmackey3166]

When the status quo of a free market is disrupted, there will always be a period of adjustment, but a new equilibrium will eventually be reached. With the traditional barriers to entry removed, a large number of new developers have sprung up. Most of them will not succeed. The ones who are motivated enough to keep at it, even knowing they will most likely fail, are the ones who will still be going after everyone else realizes that indie game development is not the shiny new way to get rich quick. And the ones still making games at that point are the ones we really want to keep at it, because they have an idea they believe is worth taking a risk on.

[@AlexVoxel]

Nice talk

[@idklol4197]

people dont want to play puzzle platformers or walking simulators anymore.

[@theloner6063]

Wrong

[@Gonzzink]

Really insightful talk! Didn't know a company such as Finji was as near to where I live as it is, and releasing some amazing games in the near future :)

[@nifftbatuff676]

But we need another roguelike, soulslike, metroidvania, deckbuilding game!!! Obviously wih crafting too!!!

[@roadrash2005]

Honestly I just want indie games to have better pixel art, I’m over the NES look.

[@wyrmoffastring]

TFW the guy says you won't recognize his games, but you own all of them.

[@DarwinsChihuahua]

It shrinks?

[@xananacs]

What a supercalifragilistiexplicalidociously awesome panel, fucking hell. Thank you all for being there!

[@seroonkel5877]

I would love if Steam include the option to set my own price (only over the sales price of course) because I like to pay 1 € per hour and often I buy games for 5 € and I would pay 10 € but not the full price (like 20 €). I cant write good in english so I hope this is understandable.

[@jesperolsson6569]

Why are people so obsessed with playtime personally I'd prefer a game that is great and engaging for 3 hours instead of 10 hours with lots of filler content.

[@seroonkel5877]

Jesper Olsson Partly I agree. Quality over Quantity. But I have a really tight budget. Also this 1 € per hour is not absolut more a guideance. 😀

[@jaymounes9473]

313000 / 62681 = 4.99 not too shabby.

[@lunardust201]

Everything is too saturated now to really make a hit, the best way is to either: get in a market early , OR be a big brand name already so you are easily recognized

[@megamike15]

yeah there is a huge oversaturation of indie games that caused it. you can only buy so many games so you have to pick and chose what devs you want to buy games from and who you don't.

[@UIMcocodog]

its quite funny rewatching this now, the idea that vr could become a massive thing, and its already dead. lol.

[@TheAtb85]

So... there will never be a Waking Mars 2 based on the secret ending? T__T I tried WM on iPad when my mother bought one, then I bought another copy when it came out on Steam, and loved the game. I bought Spider 2 because I liked WM. I like Tiger Style's take on puzzles: living, biological - therefore dynamic - puzzles. It's a pity to see that there's so many games that everybody is flooded, even those who make interesting ones, and basically one's success is almost random.

[@RangePlusOne]

Go to events, go on forums, vlog your progress, talk to other devs, tweet/instagram social media your work, support other devs and so on. Oh... and make something of quality. Seriously.

[@danielmace406]

The difference being that if a AAA game pulls in a million dollars, they might call it a loss. If an indie game pulls in ten thousand, they might call it a success.

[@ABCWarrior]

Depressing but true

[@xDeadMedic]

"Edward Pisslehands killing motherfuckers" Well that was out of left field. 10/10 panel though.

[@soshspotgames4380]

3 years after this talk now...and i've long since sworn off Triple A publishers and yet....I can't find any good Indie games. Where the heck are they? Every indie game seems to be a 3-5 hour long adventure-based solo game....or it's the 9 billionth platformer. Subnautica and Celeste were pleasant surprises.....but that's 2 games. There's only so many times I can replay Hollow Knight before I want carve my own eye balls out. : ()

[@megamike15]

most of the indies i buy are point and clicks.

[@OwenPrescott]

If I could make £30K for my game in a year I would be so happy.

[@thacoolest13]

lol. I would be happy with half that.

[@TheCivildecay]

if my upcoming (first game) makes 100 i would be so happy :)

[@thacoolest13]

I think its because most indie devs dont really expect to make money. So they dont spend much money on the project either. Also most indie devs are solo.

[@voltcorp]

That's $2.500 per month. I don't know about the cost of living in your country, but that barely pays the bills and fixes the car. And I don't even have kids. Considering that some of these projects take over a year to develop and probably occupy full working hours everyday, it's equivalent to a pretty shitty job.

[@OwenPrescott]

Tiago dos Reis Rodrigues I live in the UK and £30k is more than average for a jnr designers annual salary. Also £30K is more like $40K USD.

[@nicholascarson2554]

Rebekah ended up making her scrooge mcduck money right after this pretty much lol

[@alexanderstooshinoff4122]

I don't make games, I make music, but my god the crossover is astonishing

[@lunardust201]

Sorry but YES that canabalt number is high! 715,000 over 6 years? That is a TON of money for one simple little game

[@Lukes3D]

There asking successful full time indie developers about the indiepocalypse. Of course there going to deny it and say that it isn't real or misleading. They have established reputation, money, and great connections. There games will succeed. Its the ones who are just starting out right now that is having the hardest time.

[@MacSmithVideo]

deny it? they all seem to think its very real to me

[@enlightendbel]

But that isn't an indiepocalypse, that's just to many artsy fartsy idiots that know fuck all about development and fuck all about gaming that want a piece of the pie and don't get any because they suck. That's what's happening, it's the same shit as with "app development". It's just gold rush after bitcoin mining rush after gold rush and people being disappointed they don't have what it takes or them not being lucky enough to get a piece of the pie.

[@marcinszymanek3894]

You didn't actually watch more than the first 5 minutes, did you?

[@ihya_oldum7265]

This video didnt age well. The last year graph shows is 2015 with 2173 games and after that year 2016 comes with 4200 games and like that's not enough 2017 comes with 7000 games and 2018 had 9000 games it's really getting out of control.

[@eddebrock]

So basically Steam sales are screwing them.

[@Growmetheus]

After e3 ive decided to make my own game because what i saw was vomit

[@kalackninja]

HA. that game is on my wish list

[@ADHadh]

And then the Switch was released.

[@KTSpeedruns]

I think the worst thing about consumers is that too many of them expect them cheap or free. Mobile game with a story as good as Zelda or Final Fantasy? Won’t pay for it. While at the same time, $120 special edition with a trash bag tote bag is somehow worth pre-ordering, even if the game ends up being lower quality than most asset swaps.

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

1:07 "Because of the consistency in these games..." lol, nice way of saying re-releasing the same games for the past 15 years.

Sry but if you make 600.000$ on two games and don't step up your game you are just milking it and people will recognize.

[@GrimmBrosChannel]

Yes - it's real

[@matthewlemon4208]

I game on my phone here and there. Does anyone remember the first game industry crash? It happened BECAUSE the market was flooded with games....shitty ones, ppl lost faith. It is like that now, every 14 yr old is a dev now. For every 5 games I download I only keep and play one because the rest are broken or just crappy. NONE of them are even close to being worth paying for. It is a shame great games get buried in the crap.....but it is reality.

[@Himmelgren]

..And why are AAA titles shit these days? Because "revenue must be done in the first year" - wages need to be paid and shareholders satisfied (growth!), so they keep pushing developers to make a game in a year, every year (EA+DICE, anyone?) to keep the revenue coming. No time for innovation, no time for optimisation (DLC NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW!), no time for bug fixes, because you're already working on the damn sequel. Also, skip storyline development, because that's slow, just take some title from a couple of years back and use that. OR make a multiplayer game - the players make the stupid story!

[@benox50]

sad to force things like that to be sure the game will have proper income. Night in the wood was

[@idklol4197]

imagine thinking releasing on kickstarter in 2013 is at odds with "the spirit"of your game. You might as well have said, "thirty thousand dollars and unparalleled attention for my fledgling product? Gross!"

[@tr233]

This just bad knowledge of business , i say people read book of Den Pena , he knows what to do

[@chris-forest]

test

[@officialspock]

They speak so fast I thought the speed is doubled

[@LedoCool1]

Why I'm getting a feeling nobody plays games here?

[@GangiFilms]

WOW MAYBE HIS GAME SUCK.

[@jasonl9266]

we don't need more games that single boys make in their basements .. we need games made by a diversed group.

[@Lillu700]

That's just silly social justice rhetoric, it hardly matters who makes the game as long it's a bloody good game.