What does Disney really think about the Sequels? | Are we looking at Star Wars all wrong?

In this video I discuss what makes a great villain and if too many redeemed characters is a problem in Star Wars.
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[@cernstormrunner7263]

I will never forget when Kylo took his helmet off for the first time in TFA. The audience laughed. No one took him seriously as a villain, even before an untrained Rey fought him to a stalemate

[@billmcdermott9647]

Do you think that’s because he was normal looking or because of Adam driver himself

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

People laughed in the theater when I saw the movie. That probably wasn't what Disney wanted.

[@dereklopez9060]

I think it's in that very moment where nobody took him seriously when he started throwing angry tantrums with his lightsaber.

[@Loki_Yogi]

They laughed at my theater, too. It was crazy. The giggles every time Kylo appeared after that was also pretty palpable.

[@nickcalderon2637]

Guess I got one of the few theaters that didn't laugh or giggle when Kylo took his Helmet off.

[@mudman619]

for me, Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder is the defining moment for the Sequels - it showed a few things: 1) they didn't understand or respect the main story thread of SW; 2) they weren't taking things seriously (it was all a big joke); 3) they didn't care what their fans thought.

[@JoeVulgamoreAuthor]

When Luke first tossed the lightsaber away, my first thought was "Uh Oh... he's such a badass that he no longer needs a lightsaber"... Boy I couldn't have been more wrong.

[@dylanmahaffey8920]

This was a big turning point for me. A time when I realized I didn't like these new movies.

[@drfoto2673]

Tossing the lightsaber wasn't really a bad moment for me, it was actually really impactful and promising. The sad part is what they did with the moment, or rather what they didn't do. I first thought it was going to be Luke's Yoda moment. A lesson in not placing too much importance on physical objects etc. But instead they made him a depressed hobo and did basically nothing with the character.

[@Daniel_Huffman]

@@JoeVulgamoreAuthorIn the pre-2014 Expanded Universe, there was this unspoken rule that if a character had sworn off the use of a lightsaber, they were probably going to end up getting killed with a lightsaber.

[@JoeVulgamoreAuthor]

@@Daniel_Huffman I've heard that, but it worked for Palpatine. He quit using them (for the most part) after Order 66. And pretty much entirely by TOS... I didn't really mean to say he swore off of it... just that his force powers had grown so strong that it was no longer needed as a primary weapon of choice.

[@dereklopez9060]

Rey beating Kylo Ren in her first lightsaber fight is still BS to this very day, there's no defending it, there's no justifying it, No If's, no but's, none of that.

[@smartalec2001]

An idea someone pointed out once is that it makes sense if she's using the power of the Dark Side to kick his ass. She doesn't look composed or serene when she beats him, that's for sure. She looks furious. She wasn't Palpatine's grand-daughter when they made TFA, but it kind of makes sense. She beats Kylo not because she's the hero, but she's got the power to be a better villain than him.

[@zigurdur92]

Yeah being shot Chewbacca’s blaster is no joke, even kotor or any other Star Wars games have shown how strong the gun is. A shot Kylo Ren barely survived.

[@c.s3369]

@@smartalec2001 well thats just a bs reason respectfully. kylo has skywalker blood and was trained in the darkside.

[@Wes_Bradley-Taubner]

@@zigurdur92that’s a very common excuse I’ve heard, and it actually doesn’t work. Kylo was shot by the bowcaster in the hip, so it’s not like any internal organs were hit. For most people, a shot from that weapon to the hip would be a huge disadvantage. However, notice how kylo was actively beating his wound to make it even worse. Why would he worsen his injury intentionally? Because the dark side is fuelled by negative emotions, such as the suffering and anger that would come from an injury. So Kylo’s injury would’ve actually amped his power, thus why he was trying to make it worse. Despite this power amp, he still lost to a teenager who had never held a lightsaber in her life. She won due to plot armour or kylo being an absolute joke. One of those 2. Either way, the movie has weak writing or a weak villain.

[@rossburney8713]

​@@zigurdur92 but he uses the pain to fuel his dark side power

[@allwalledup]

The prequels were hated at first , but then despite some initial flaws in acting and dialogue everyone came to see them in hindsight for the great stories they were. I’m pretty sure the sequels in time will go down as the greatest mishandling of a franchise in all of cinema.

[@howard7073]

I’d imagine they know they messed them up but there is no way they’ll will ever admit it….its easier to blame everyone else but themselves. Not having Luke, Han and Leia etc on screen together one last time is one of the biggest mistakes in film history.

[@dereklopez9060]

Ironically, the actors and J J Abrams themselves admitted that there was no plan for the sequel trilogy at all. Not having Luke, Han and Leia on screen together one last time is absolutely infuriating.

[@JoRoq1]

The lack of the on-screen reunion is even more pronounced when you watch the video of the first group read-through of the script for TFA. Traditionally the director reads the script descriptions and directions, with the actors only reading their specific lines. But Mark Hamill had no lines, so they let him read the director's part. There was literally no purpose for Hamill to be part of that specific meeting, they just wanted to have him there as part of the moment.

[@istari0]

It was a catastrophic blunder. It was the most obvious thing they should have done. If they'd had any sense it would have happened in the first few minutes of the first movie.

[@howard7073]

@@dereklopez9060 it was utter insanity to go into any trilogy (let alone one of Star Wars once proud pedigree) without having even the slightest plan of how you get from A to C….its mind boggling the stupidity of these people.

[@saberiandream316]

It was also a mistake to throw out the EU and not continue it, but they'll never admit that, which is why we're never getting new Legends stories.

[@captainDJ87]

As a regular at Star Wars Celebration since 2015, they hardly recognize or allude to its existence, with a few references here and there. Hell, 2023 is where they announced the new Rey movie, yet the majority audience was more concerned with the Aotc 20th anniversary. Very telling

[@saberiandream316]

And ofc, the book readers still prefer the EU to all the crap Lucasfilm has spewed out with their new licensed canon. Very telling there too.

[@electricbambi]

How are you reaching that conclusion re. what the Celebration crowd was excited for? I was in the room when they announced the Rey movie and the crowd went wild - it was easily the biggest announcement of the whole convention and what everyone was talking about. I didn't hear anyone discussing the AOTC panel.

[@saberiandream316]

@@electricbambi Ah yes, the "sequels were really very beloved" myth. And yet merchandising sales say otherwise. No one was buying sequel merchandising in the late 2010s.

[@captainDJ87]

@@electricbambi sorry to burst your bubble but that minimum crowd you heard represents hard core fans from across the globe, and no one was as excited for the Rey movie as they were for Ewan and Hayden. The crowd cheered for a Solo movie too and look how that turned out

[@istari0]

I don't think most fans want to see Star Wars as an assortment of tall tales told around a fire. I know I don't. The more I feel like all the stories being told really are in the same fictional universe, the better the stories become.

[@saberiandream316]

Yes, I think most Star Wars fans prefer the shared universe aspect, but you're not going to get that from Disney or Filoni.

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

Same. Though I understand why they want to see Star Wars as a collection of takes (maybe they want the inconsistencies to be okay or they aren't inconsistencies at all), I'd rather see it as a fictional history. I know contradictions in the lore are from unreliable/different pov characters, various writers that want to fit their own view into SW no matter how it fits in, or don't know a lot about the lore. Which occurs in historical documents, too.

[@mpnuorva]

I agree: The original framing story from Lucas' early drafts was called "Journal of the Whills" ie it was a singular (if not always consistent) story.

[@janeenschultz8502]

I would also prefer Star Wars to be more historical and consistent. The lore we do have points towards that type of storytelling as opposed to something like The Elder Scrolls universe. There is a main thread of a timeline in TES, but almost all the stories about that thread are told quite obviously from the "unreliable narrator" perspective, and that's fine. It actually makes it enjoyable and interesting to see the changes to the races, their thoughts, their culture, etc, through the ages. In my mind, Star Wars wasn't like that. It could BECOME that eventually, but I don't see that right now.

[@AndreNitroX]

World history is one of my favorite subjects to learn about. I love researching different cultures on important events in their timeline and that includes wars. So when I first got into Star Wars I believe that same interest is what drove me to know every single important event and war in the expanded universe Star Wars time line and I loved it. So yes I prefer continuity and historical fact over silly campfire stories

[@DarthVexar]

Do they know most fans reject the sequels? Yes Do they give a shit? No

[@saberiandream316]

Lucasfilm will never be short on cash, since they have access to Disney's vast financial reservoirs, thus it frees them up to do what THEY want to do, not what WE want them to do. It must be nice to live in a world without consequences...

[@DarthVexar]

@@saberiandream316 :(

[@johnbox271]

From Disney's point of view: the Sequels were excellent movies, but there are too many closed minded individuals who rejected them and worked to undermine the public image of these films.

[@DarthVexar]

@@johnbox271 sure buddy

[@DarthVexar]

@@johnbox271 always the fans’ fault huh?Maybe their reputation is terrible because the films were terrible. You sound like you work for Disney.

[@TwistedReality13]

I'd argue the moment she did the jedi mind trick without any training we should have known where the movie and franchise in general was headed.

[@JoRoq1]

The first instance would have worked fine if it had been a one-off, an uncontrolled manifestation that she wasn't able to repeat. What ruined it is that she was able to immediately use it at will.

[@runback22]

The bigger issue for me was how did she even know that was a thing? Even Luke had to ask about the mind trick but she automatically knew about it and was a master

[@Deuteromis]

@@runback22 Oh if you don't know TLJ novel explains that Rey basically downloaded the knowledge from Kylo during the interrogation scene.

[@DarthVexar]

@@Deuteromis which is a retarded excuse to justify Rey being overpowered lol

[@thaThRONe]

I disagree. The TFA clearly meant Rey to have had previous training. When Kylo hears about Finn escaping with girl. He asked what girl? As if he knows there's a girl out there that is problematic. There's literally no reason for him to ask that question if she's a "nobody". And that's just one of a half dozen things TFA does to suggest Rey is has history with other characters.

[@JC-jx4rq]

"Fiction is limited: it has to be believable on some level. History is under no such obligation or limitation." (P. Klass, 1971)

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

Same. Though I understand why they want to see Star Wars as a collection of takes (maybe they want everything to fit together or all be valid), I'd rather see it as a fictional history. Contradictions in the lore are from unreliable/different pov characters, various writers that want to fit their own view into SW no matter how it fits in, or don't know a lot about the lore. Which occurs in historical documents, too.

[@FFS-Vert]

Personally I find it harder to be invested in Star Wars when the canon is inconsistent. It doesn’t feel like creativity on the part of the writers as much as them just making the story they want work by any means possible. Inconsistency to me just feels lazy and contrived when it’s very possible to make a good story set in the Star Wars galaxy that stays within the bounds of established lore. People seem to think that the lore is too restrictive on writers. I think they need to try harder.

[@CmdrBrannick]

Seeing any media as just campfire stories just makes it closer to the saying, "Just consume product and get excited for next product". It elevates a ton of criticism which isn't always a good thing.

[@bobthebonzo]

Bout a month ago I asked a Hey Thor question like the campfire story one that was not nearly as well worded as the one in this video so it got no reply 😅. Thanks to the viewer who had a similar thought with better literacy. I really enjoyed the question and answer.

[@thesp1r1tdragon55]

I do agree that looking at SW films as "campfire stories" with unreliable narrators might elevate those movies. But to me (and I believe to a lot of other fans as well) the joy I get out of SW is not just watching the movies or reading the books. In fact that's a very small aspect of it all. I enjoy thinking about how the story could have turned out differently if some detail was changed or watching vidoes about the politics of the republic or whatever. In fact I probably spend at least 10x more time on these "side activities" than I actually consume SW content. And they only work if you treat the stories as facts. Because you can't really theorize or make logical deductions if all your premises are inconsistent or might not be true at all.

[@qty1315]

I remember a review on AV Club about Family Guy where the critic responded to a fan saying "You're reviewing Family Guy wrong. The story doesn't matter, it's all about whether or not the cutaways make you laugh." The critic said something like "It's a tv show. You shouldn't need to tell people that in order to like it and give it good reviews you need to skip the bad parts, and then qualify those bad parts as more than half of the episodes. But, okay, if that's what you want, that's how I'll review it," which led to the critic not docking points for the story of the episode, but instead using the weird system of "If I laughed at a cutaway, it's good," and concluded that they found most of the cutaways unfunny and still gave it a bad review. Afterwards, the fan commented saying something like "Well, I found every cutaway funny," which was responded to with "Okay, so, I'm supposed to consult with you to confirm that the show is funny and give it a perfect score, huh? Cool. From now on, just assume that every single episode is an A+ and pretend my reviews of it are positive." It breaks my heart that this situation could be compared to Star Wars.

[@MedalionDS9]

I think they setup Kylo Ren just fine in Force Awakens as a threat... BUT... they just conveniently gave Rey powers out of the blue and defeated him without any earning of that moment and skill... and deflated everything....the whole Trilogy

[@billmcdermott9647]

I think it’s because he kept getting weaker….Kylo doesn’t say have a big display of power in the throne room while Rey is outclassed. She deals with the guards quite easily while Kylo is clearly struggling

[@MedalionDS9]

@@billmcdermott9647 Even a weaker Kylo should still be able to mop the floor with Rey without Plot Force armor to kick his butt

[@billmcdermott9647]

@@MedalionDS9 I think they ruined themselves because before the emperor was reborn….they were moving forward with K as the villain. And I think they realised..,.he just didn’t feel like a threat

[@dereklopez9060]

Despite getting shot by Chewbacca's crossbow, Kylo Ren still should've won the fight regardless. Since the Dark Side feeds on pain. I guess the writers never thought about that.

[@MedalionDS9]

@@billmcdermott9647 He didn't feel like a threat because they had an untrained girl defeat him in the first movie of a trilogy. People say The Last Jedi ruined the trilogy... I say the ending of Force Awakens already did that.

[@Mr6Sinner]

I have said for years now that the best way to “fix” the sequel films will be to start the next film with R2 and 3PO sitting around a campfire with a bunch of Ewoks. R2 can beep and boop and then 3PO says something like “What are you talking about? It didn’t happen like that at all!”

[@emberfist8347]

No R2 would have told a better story. Part of the reason those movies sucked was the lack of R2.

[@BratwurstOrca]

​@@emberfist8347Then how about the sequels ending with Luke waking up realizing the sequels were just a nightmare?

[@emberfist8347]

@@BratwurstOrca If he finds Mara in a sonic shower yes.

[@BratwurstOrca]

@@emberfist8347 That would be hilarious, if the sequels ended like that Family Guy episode where the world was destroyed by Y2K and it turned out to be Pam Ewing's nightmare.

[@kodyshaw6991]

​@@emberfist8347Let's say at this point in the timeline R2s memory unit was decaying and needed to be replaced.

[@dark_fire_ice]

Anyone is free to critique art in anyway they want, so saying "they just missed the whole point" is just saying "no the creator didn't mess anything up, see it looks pretty." As for campfire vs epic storytelling; they are the same thing. Tall tails made it because they maintained enough of internal consistency to create verisimilitude

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

Same. Though I understand why they want to see Star Wars as a collection of takes (maybe they want all stories to be valid), they are flaws plane and simple. I know contradictions in the lore are from unreliable/different pov characters, various writers that want to fit their own view into SW no matter how it fits in, or don't know a lot about the lore. Which occurs in historical documents, too.

[@mpnuorva]

Fourth question: An imperial threat arises, good guys rise to the challenge, and ultimately knock it down without the status quo really changing: Am I talking of the Bad Batch, or the Thrawn Trilogy? They both have the same point: to tell a good story for it's own sake.

[@raiderlove5923]

I really had trouble believing Rey full out defeated Kylo Ren in their first duel in The Force Awakens without any explanation of how or why.

[@janeenschultz8502]

Yeah, it's hard to justify the fight with something like "Oh, but he's really hurt," when she's literally never used a lightsaber or the Force in her life until that day.

[@RaikenXion]

She DOWNLOADED all of Kylo's knowledge of the force that he had LEARNED under two Masters. that is the answer lol. It's in the novelization.

[@janeenschultz8502]

@@RaikenXion I'm gonna be like Han a minute and say "That's not how the Force works." That's more of a cyborg implant thing. Maybe that's why she's lacking in other departments. Her cybernetic implants interfered.

[@lordcarnorjax8599]

I want it to be historical fact like it used to be mostly. Sure there was inconsistencies but that's alwasy going to happen and they at least worked to fix them when that happened. Unlike now you've got two completely different versions of Kanan's Order 66 survival and TBB was completely unnecessary because you never saw Kanan again in that show. If they'd showed TBB saving another new Padawan it would have made zero difference to the show but canon would be consistent. Instead we got a key jangle scene and a massive canon clash. There's a famous quote by Tolkien: "The story-maker proves a successful 'sub-creator'. He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is 'true': it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed." Kanan's two separate Order 66 stories break that immersion if you know them. Thre's heaps of other examples that can be used from the Disney era content too.

[@spacemanspud7073]

Great quote and great way of illustrating this problem. It's just an excuse for lazy writing

[@lordcarnorjax8599]

@@spacemanspud7073 Exactly it's just an excuse to not put the required work in and just be able to write what ever the hell you want. It's why there's so much crap storytelling coming out of LucasFilm. When I listen to Stackpole talk about how much research he did before writing the X-Wing books or Zahn & Allston talking about having discussions with other creatives making sure they don't cheaply weaponise hyperspace, you could tell those guys got it. And unsurprisingly most of their works are fan favourites.

[@qty1315]

Here's the thing. If the movies were really that good, the fandom wouldn't be constantly having discussions about plot holes, toxic fans criticising the movies, and discussing how to 'fix' the movies. This isn't normal. Other fandoms are NOT like this. Other fandoms actually discuss the lore of their favourite franchise and don't feel the need to acknowledge toxic fans, unless the fans are like Chris-Chan levels of delusional. Like, take the Invincible fandom. If you peel back the surface of the fandom the biggest criticism you'll get is that the animation is a bit wonky, and that there might be an issue with the way the show is animated because even though it got delayed specifically to make the animation as good as possible the animation didn't really improve or decline in quality, therefore when it gets announced that it will be delayed again "To make the animation as good as possible," there are people who say "Yeah! Take as long as you need," and others being like "I mean... I don't think it'll make a difference because the last delays didn't result in much of a difference. As long as the writing is good, which it tends to be, I don't think a 2-year delay is necessary." With Star Wars, people generally have the expectation of things like the Kenobi show doing damage to the lore, with even the most positive of fans saying "I'm excited, but for the love of God I hope they don't ruin Obi-Wan Kenobi," because that's the expectation even die-hard fans of Disney Star Wars have now.

[@saberiandream316]

Stargate fans still talk about what we love, not what we hate, for example.

[@thepaladinauthoryoutube]

Even campfire stories need some kind of continuity to matter. Take the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the oldest surviving fiction stories of all time. It has its tale, its arc, and its characters with their journeys on a profound bittersweet ending with the deaths of one of the characters. But then there's the anomaly of one of the later tablets where the character is inexplicably alive again and new adventures ensue. It's so jarring that it led to an investigation where the original tablet that contains the stories were found to basically be ancient fanfiction shoehorned in by someone who just wanted to see the stories continue whether it worked or not.

[@originaldarkwater]

"What was the point of Bad Batch?" If you look at it that way, then there's no point to Luke redeeming Vader in Return of the Jedi, either. If Luke hadn't been on the second Death Star, the Rebel and Ewok ground forces would have still won that battle, the shield generator would have been destroyed and Vader and the Emperor would have died in the ensuing explosion of the second Death Star. Unless you assume that Vader might have commanded the ground forces and lead them to victory or that the Emperor might have still had time to escape the second Death Star between when the shield went down and when it actually exploded, but there's no indication that either of those events would have transpired if Luke hadn't gone to redeem Vader. But Vader's redemption IS the story and the galactic rebellion is just the backdrop. Similarly, the relationships between the members of the Bad Batch and how they form a found family in spite of trials and tribulations IS the story and the transition of the Republic into the Empire is just the backdrop. A story about how a family sticks together even when the outside world is going to shit.

[@aaroneclipse514]

The point of the Bad Batch is to understand what happened to the Clone Troopers post the fall of the Republic: we get to see how the Empire discards them and replaces them with stormtroopers. But the Bad Batch actually showed us how the Empire came into power so quickly: the chain code creation, the early stages of the Stormtroopers, the Clones being decommissioned without aid, the early stages of Palpatine's resurrection plan, etc. so for someone to say the Bad Batch is inconsequential hinges on not paying attention even just a bit to the actual show.

[@idiot_city5244]

None of that is needed whatsoever haha, it is inconsequential. We all know clones were fazed out for stormtroopers, that's all you need to know. It's like Rogue One, an entire movie based off a throw away line that was completely unnecessary to the actual story of Episode 4. It's just added fluff

[@aaroneclipse514]

@@idiot_city5244 of course, we know the fate of the clones, but we never actually SEE it happen nor do we see how the clones ended up because of it. Calling it fluff is ridiculous just like your profile name.

[@AndreNitroX]

World history is one of my favorite subjects to learn about. I love researching different cultures on important events in their timeline and that includes wars. So when I first got into Star Wars I believe that same interest is what drove me to know every single important event and war in the expanded universe Star Wars time line and I loved it. So yes I prefer continuity and historical fact over silly campfire stories.

[@Lord-Emperor-Vader]

Reminder I made a petition to remonetize Thor Skywalker Plus and the link is on my community tab and I am reposting it on the discord server.

[@susanwitkowski5802]

I signed it. Everyone please help them! Their channels are so great and deserving!

[@B.matrix]

Both. History notoriously gets the details wrong, particularly for events that occurred long ago and far away. The presence of minor inconsistencies makes it feel more real to me.

[@thehikingcucumber3410]

My excitement for Star Wars is at an all time low.

[@TheGarywolfbarron8]

The moment they revealed Star Killer Base and five planets blowing up within eyesight of one planet in the Day time sky... Holy crap, that was so f'ing stupid!!

[@presidentmillardfillmore1329]

Hey Thor, there's an idea out there that Anakin, because he was horrifically injured, never reached his full "potential", which tends to mean that he isnt as strong as he could have been. I disagree, being that I think Vader would beat Anakin in a fight, as Vader gains from hatred, and there ia no one else he would hate more than himself, thus giving himself an advatage over his former self. Idk, just some ideas. Thoughts?

[@Deuteromis]

Well Lucas did say Vader did reach his full potential because he was scared and lost his limbs. He still was very powerful, but just not as powerful as she should have been.

[@jedimasterdraco6950]

I'm pretty sure that was actually in the old EU with Palpatine even noting that because of his mainly mechanical nature, he was unable to use Force Lightning, except understand certain circumstances.

[@Kilgore6549]

Disney does not think the sequel trilogy was a mistake at all. The proof is that they are making a Rey movie. They think Solo was a mistake, that’s why they made Boba Fett and Obi Wan Kenobi as tv shows. The decision makers at Disney have no idea how to deal with Star Wars. They accidentally succeeded with some things, just as a blind squirrel accidentally finds a nut.

[@michaellane5381]

7:21 (ish) the problem using Lucas's line to defend the sequels is in Lucas's day the "bigger picture" actually WAS a "motion picture" or a full trilogy... Disney didn't plan out the trilogy properly or keep these movies internally consistent enough to apply, too many cliffhangers and gatcha moments are attempted.

[@Deuteromis]

Oh it was clear Disney knows most fan don't like the Sequels because of that May 4th video they put out celebrating Star Wars. Go rewatch it, cause they don't show any scenes or characters from the Sequels, the only instance of the Sequels featured is someone cosplaying as Kylo.

[@saveritas731]

Hey Thor, With regards to historical account vs. campfire story, is it possible that the latter is the "solution" to the alleged "problem" of anti-Jediism in the fandom? For my part, and I know that many agree with me but not the majority, I have based my skepticism of the Jedi Order and the Jedi Way on facts that are largely EU exclusive. Three key examples that come to mind: -The precursor the Jedi Order on Tython prioritizing equal study of the Light and Dark Sides of the Forces before the Light Side faction wiped out the Dark Side faction; -The historical repeated rise of Sith Lords resulting from the Jedi alienating key powerful members of their Order for various reasons and the Jedi never learning from it; and -Luke's New Jedi Order doing away with the Jedi Code's rules on family relationships and total ban on studying the Dark Side, and being more successful as a Light Side faction as a result. Lucas did not introduce these aspects into the EU canon, but he did greenlight them. While the fandom largely hated the EU being decanonized, it seems that if one wants the Jedi portrayed in a more positive light, removing their EU history seems to be a good starting point because it makes the Clone Wars version of the Order seem to be a one time failure rather than the latest in a long history of failures. For my part, I feel like that Star Wars is more interesting in the EU format because it allows for more moral nuances, but I'm curious as to whether you feel if Star Wars is better off with the EU if it means that the Jedi have a more overtly positive in-universe image.

[@regishel]

I used to view Star Wars as one universe, but honestly I've already cut off everything I hate out of my Canon because of Disney, so campfire stories sure that's one way to see everything as Legends and maybe the only way to stay a Star Wars fan🤔. But yeah, I reversed everything personally, so everything Disney-Star Wars is "Legends" and the real Canon is the EU (and a few handful of stories that doesn't relate to events in the EU, and therefore can be in the EU without destroying the EU-canon)🤷‍♀️

[@Otherwise88]

Im with you there. I have my own canon too. I ignore retconned ressurections like Cyborg Maul.

[@SuicV]

About the historical fact vs campfire tales: if you're going the unreliable narator route, you have to clearly establish that beforehand. You can't just tell the story normally at first, then change your mind and use that as an excuse when the stories don't line up

[@originaldarkwater]

Much like stories told around the campfire, the broad brushstrokes should line up, even if some of the details might come into conflict with each other.

[@JoeVulgamoreAuthor]

Hey Thor... Thanks for including my comment in the video! I agree with your take on it. Kylo could have been a great villain had they not written him like an emo child in Episode 7... Getting bested by an untrained girl who never held a lightsaber is plain bad writing. Even Mando, a highly trained warrior half-way cut his own leg off using the Darksaber... That's one reason why I like the "campfire story" idea... JJ was just a plain bad narrator of it... he heard it wrong...

[@varundattoo9512]

This is a story about "The Bad Batch", since, if you take the big picture outlook; well it gets messy real fast. The fact that you can say they got a satisfying conclusion is good enough for me. The damage has been done to 'the big picture' and the only thing fixing any of it is that infamous R word.

[@JohanMsWorld]

I like to sit around the campfire and listen to a good story so to say. I dont realy care if you have inconsistents or plotholes if its not to glaring or breaks the magics.

[@mag68us]

I never though about the campfire model for creating Star Wars. But it feels like it might be better because, as we have seen, it is difficult to stick with one canon through different stories.

[@saberiandream316]

I don't like the campfire model, because basically what we're doing is saying, let's explore non-canon stories outside the prime continuity, but even after ten years, Legends fans still get nothing. Lucasfilm green-lit a new non-canon anime, Jesus Christ, we live in a world where we might have STAR WARS appear in Kingdom Hearts in a non-canon capacity, but Legends fans are still treated like pariahs by Disney-owned Lucasfilm. It's shameful.

[@peterschow3329]

As a practicing Jedi I view the shows and movies like parables, stories to teach us lessons. I do enjoy the entertainment value of the shows but whenever I watch now, since I have come to acknowledge The Force as my guiding light, I focus on the message and the spiritual impact. So in short, yes they are stories, myths for us to realize a potential within ourselves. On redemption, it only comes to those who really accept it. Even Kylo was able to realize what he had been fighting throughout the movies was really where he needed to be. For Barris, perhaps sitting in prison gave her time to reflect that wasn't truly explored in the show. Yet at trial Barris condemns the Jedi rather than fully turning dark, even though she states how she feels the red blades suit her. She was in conflict and that conflict continues as she watches the temple burn and dealing with the recruiting tactics of the empire and inquisitors. Yoda states that wars don't make one great. War can destroy us even if the cause is just. When we accept that things are as they are and we can only do and be our best selves, accepting responsibility for ourselves and our actions and the consequences of those actions is all that matters. We can all be redeemed. We have to accept it, and that is the grand message I got from the final episode of tales of the Empire

[@cameronfarrell9076]

The issue i have with joevulgamore's comment is that star wars builds off of (and to, in the case of prequels) what has cone before, so if what disney is making is bad, then that bad thing is going to influence whatever comes after it. We've all heard the saying about the mandoverse "all roads lead to the sequels", and we've seen how that has impacted not only where the story can go, but it also impacts the story being told in the present. For example, the new republic has to be presented as complete and utter morons in order for the status quo of the start of the sequels to make sense.

[@under_score3829]

5:01 The main problem wasn't even so much that it "wasn't Legends" but rather that the story itself just didn't connect (and the Legends stories did). If they'd replaced Legends with something as good or better, it wouldn't have mattered. No one cared when Kyle Katarn was replaced with Rogue One and Andor.

[@user-kl5zd2oe3e]

When Rey P. reached out into the force and started beating Kylo badly, i actually said, "oh no!" out loud in the theater. None of the other six films in the series made me do this, except for when I saw the poster to the Clone Wars film. I was actually hoping they would have gone with legends canon and Kylo had, what amounts to, an unexploded grenade within his body that would have to be detonated to finally put him down.

[@ajmauser]

It's funny you say that! I always looked at the prequel as campfire tales. Don't even get me started on the sequels.

[@P326Star]

I would love for them to expand on Barriss’ time as an Inquisitor and fully flesh out her journey from there to redemption. Given the shortness of the Tales series, we were never going to get the full arc we wanted and I think that was a shame but also to be expected.

[@Elayzee]

They are in love with the Last Jedi, that's very evident.

[@Oscar-mh7ez]

Campfire stories imply a flawed narrator, or a story where the exact details aren’t clear or very important. A historical tale is more of an exact account of all events and with full explanations with no room for error. What we get in Star Wars is a mix of myth combined with character driven narratives. There is an overall theme or goal that defines the characters journey but which hand they hold a lightsaber with is an example of a small detail that can be overlooked. However when handling things like ambiguous character deaths or important character arcs are examples of things that are not so easy to forgive when they are glossed over. Reva and Sabine seem to be the first things that come to mind. Reva was gravely injured 2 times by Darth Vader and Sabine was shown to not be interested in the Jedi or the force but then is made into a Jedi with no justifiable reason. The sequels are unfortunately are riddled with terrible storytelling and almost no coherent plot. The excuse of the sequels being just “campfire stories” is a lame copout to justify bad writing and not using George’s sequels.

[@paveldatsyuk8268]

Hey thor, How many times have you rewatched the Sequels? I saw TFA lots after it's released but I've only seen TLJ twice and TROS once. Do you think the Sequels failed and don't have much rewatch-ability because fans didn't like how they treated old characters, or because the movies don't have any deeper life lessons and teaching? Recent projects like Kenobi and Mando seem to be very surface level and although its not out yet 'the acolyte' seems like its teaching the wrong lessons. Do you think Disney and KK as a whole will ever understand the true meaning of Star Wars or will it only ever be a sandbox for them to play in? Lots of questions I know but I'm curious as to what you have to say. Keep up the great work

[@StefSis]

Villains schmienals! We all just need more cow bell!!! (good points though)

[@eane4762]

Rey should have been a cosmic force being. She should have been something that caused concern and even fear from Luke and she could have overpowered Kylo Ren easily and left all puzzled. Creating a script around her choosing the light or the dark side while she realizes she was made to end that cycle completely could have pitted her against Luke and Kylo forcing them to come together. We certainly could have has Snoke being some kind of Abeloth from the novels and now Rey, Luke, Kylo and Finn come together to battle this dark entity requiring Rey to use all her power to save everyone and restore the force, order and light to the galaxy……….que SW fanfare

[@commoncents6831]

The moment it all went wrong was before TFA even released.....the decision to make |Stormtroopers |Disney Mighty DuckTroopers....I knew we wer F'd the moment they revealed them

[@originaldarkwater]

Regarding Star Wars as kind of campfire stories would be a great idea, but Disney would have to support that through some kind of framing device in at least one movie for people to accept it, and at this point, they'd probably think it was a retcon to try, once again, to make the sequels be accepted. Truth be told, it would have been best if Lucas had initiated that framing device since I think you are correct in believing he sees Star Wars that way.

[@RDeathmark]

Hey Thor in the original version of Star Wars where Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker were two separate people with the former having killed the latter do you think there was a Redemption Arc planned for Darth Vader? Or would he have died the villain

[@TheFenecFox]

Hey Thor! With the Acolyte around the corner and your discussion about how the Jedi are supposed to be selfless and the Sith selfish - how do you think a story involving a Jedi trying to balance the Force by using the dark side will play out? If I had to guess it would have to be very costly...

[@toonytube2444]

I hadnt a Problem with the REY/KYLO-fight in FORCE AWAKENS. He kicked her ass before without even trying very hard. In the final battle of FORCE AWAKENS he was bleeding and still was able to fight her until the end. The problems started to me with THE LAST JEDI.

[@Mutex50]

At the time, I didn’t mind Rey beating Kylo. I assumed that Rey was a former prodigy student of Luke’s with suppressed memories. Since Kylo was also severely injured, I thought it made sense.

[@rogerpalsgrove9678]

I think both formats are fine. Just need to be defined before being delved into.

[@giantwookiee6472]

No Lego sequel trilogy sets for years. Not since rise of skywalker. That tells you something.

[@saberiandream316]

In my stores, there's zero merchandising for the sequel trilogy.

[@jiacheng23]

I'm sorry but the idea that fans should think of Star Wars as campfire stories is just dumb. It's not on the audience to create a way for the stories to work for them, that responsibility falls on the writers and the director. They show us through the on screen events how the story is meant to be perceived. If people have a hard time accepting it that is because they didn't do their job. I get that George Lucas doesn't want people to get caught up on the small details, but that is what makes up the story and makes it feel real. When there's a few inconsistencies like we see in the OG Star Wars where Luke is attracted to Leia before they decide that she is his sister, we can ignore that if the rest of the story is good. But when the story contradicts itself through every step of the journey people aren't going to be willing to turn their brains off and forget that the pieces don't connect. That's simply not good storytelling.

[@c.s3369]

very well said

[@saberiandream316]

Blame Filoni, he's encouraged this idea of "different campfire stories" ever since he came on board and all his projects broke canon and continuity in some form or another. The man's a menace.

[@jiacheng23]

@@saberiandream316 In my opinion, it sounds like a cop out and a way to avoid accountability for not giving two damns about continuity.

[@saberiandream316]

@@jiacheng23 Mm-hmm.

[@fredlusyk6741]

《A Long Time Ago, From a Certain Point of View, in a Galaxy Far Far Away, From Time to Time.... STAR WARS Episode X: REYTURN OF THE JEDI... ...Rey Skywalker is not gonna be saved by the Scoundrel's Son & she's not gonna be Dreaming about a Force Dyad...she's Dreaming about being the Hero she already is because she's Fearless, Fair, Brave, & True...》 ...WOW!!! it's already been 5 Years since the Theatrical Release of "TROS"...? ...that means it's been 6 Years since i've seen a STAR WARS Movie in Theaters!!! ...Personally, i Ease my Pain from the Sequels by looking at Dizney STAR WARS as "Trashcan Bonfire Tales" told by Hemmingway, Mary Poppins, Mr. Hyde & The Nutty Professor... ...i also agree with JC about the importance of The Villains being Stronger than The Heros, which is why i didn't like "T2"... ...Arnold Schwarzenegger (AKA "Mr. Universe") running away from Robert Patrick for Two & a Half Hours...? i love Sci-Fi, but it was Hard for me to Take that Story Seriously for one minute!!! 👽 🖖 🤖

[@teleportedbreadfor3days]

I feel like between Kennedy and co. in Lucasfilms studios and Disney, there’s a mixture between, awareness that the Disney Trilogy failed in some way or another and simply not caring what the audience thinks in the worst way possible. Kennedy has agendas to push, this is obvious, but Disney, despite most definitely only caring about money, is likely too afraid of backlash to fire Kennedy for costing them money, assuming they can. But that’s my assessment. As for the viewpoints on Star Wars and continuity, the reason we don’t treat the Galaxy’s stories as campfire stories and care so much about its treatment is because of how much it moved and impacted us as people as art as well as a journey. What’s more, there’s a difference between differences between stories and contradiction.

[@saberiandream316]

Don't assume Star Wars improves when she leaves. Those Disney issues are going to persist. Things could easily stay as bad as they are now, or get worse. Especially if Filoni takes over. The EU butchering would be off the scale.

[@teleportedbreadfor3days]

@@saberiandream316 Oh no, I wouldn’t, but a company would traditionally fire somebody like Kennedy for costing them millions. They just haven’t cause she’s a woman and they’re afraid people are gonna call them sexist, I guess. Besides, she’s already hired more than a few likeminded people such as Harvey Weinstein’s former assistant, who’s arguably more extreme than Kennedy in the sexism department. And I don’t expect Filoni to take over after her. I don’t have enough impartial information on the guy as a developer, so I couldn’t yet say for sure if he’d make things better or worse, but I can say with confidence that he’s not good with handling bigger projects. There’s a reason he worked on TCW _with_ George and not with George under him.

[@CitizenScott]

It's true that Lucas wasn't really concerned with consistency. There are many inconsistencies between the OT and the PT that he could have easily avoided if he gave a poodoo. I agree that people need to chill with their encyclopedic approach.

[@lukeorloki]

I think it's up to each fan how they want to see the star wars stories. As camp fire stories might indeed work for some. Although IMO, It would be really stupid camp fire stories or story telling to try and have the sequels make any sense with the other movies. Disney saying pretty much everything made after they bought star wars is cannon, even often ridiculous comics, is the opposite of treating it just as somewhat affiliated camp fire stories. Star Wars has always been simple enough for the casual fan to enjoy while also creating the massive iceberg of incredibly in-depth lore for fans that want a universe of continuity depth. The current and increasing depth of continuity says that continuity is indeed significant in disney star wars story telling. It's mental work to see new stories as just affiliated stories that might not fundamentally work with the old story. I do think it's good to be flexible about all the small things that don't have to be perfect in continuity from story to story. However, when fans have to rely on too much apologetics to like new stories than the problem might be with the story teller. So sure we can ease up on the nitpicky stuff and just enjoy the stories as long as we don't have to spend all of our time saying it's just camp fire stories that aren't supposed to make sense with the other stories. The stories don't have to maintain consistent historical facts for me but they can't suddenly change too many accepted facts without good story telling on why the most important fundamentals of the story universe are suddenly different. The basic fundamentals like what the jedi, the sith, the force, and how the main characters are has to maintain some believable continuity. Personally, I don't consider any thing by disney after Return of the Jedi in the timeline to be valid star wars. The sequels with Jake Skywalker and the mandoverse are it's own separate universe from the Star Wars universe.

[@Livelongwforce]

KZbinr Charlie Hopkinson! He is an amazing voice talent that does the voices of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Qui Gon. They discuss the movies and tv shows using deepfake technology and amazing acting to be the characters. The humor comes from character interactions instead of just dumping on the material. Clever, witty and Lol! To find him, look up "QuiGon learns he messed up bad"

[@susanwitkowski5802]

Love his channel! He is brilliant!!

[@vestarakhai5303]

Regarding TBB I feel like while yes he still got his clone, if he had Omega it would have been a more stable body than what you see in that one film

[@geoffreygill5849]

It’s kind of funny and sad when you think about it. After acquiring Star Wars, they immediately pump out hot garbage for cash, disappoint everyone, and spend the next 5 years pumping out more shows to try to justify 1% of why those movies were so bad. Star Wars is forever a slave to their stupidity. And yes, I still watch it /:

[@saloz9483]

You can even argue that yea luke won in a new hope but it wasint really a definitive win. It was during a crazy space battle not face to face. Also of course diseny aint happy with the sequels since like you said if they were we wouldve been got a continuation of them. They have been trying to fix them with books and shows but that aint happening.

[@PsychedelicDude]

I agree with GL that focusing on SMALL mistakes is dumb. A starbucks cup showing is a small mistake, Luke bouncing back up in ESB during the Bespin Duel is a small mistake. Lazy writing and pushing agendas are not small mistakes. Having the villain lose in the first movie, Luke failing in TLJ and somehow Palps returned are not small mistakes.

[@ellugerdelacruz2555]

The thing is, unless you're Warhammer 40k, the Dracula novel, or the Dune Books, the whole "campfire stories" things can NEVER work in Star Wars cuz the first Trilogy was never told as such. Sure there was the framework of "A long time ago..." but that feels more liek an aesthetic than anything else... You can say subjectivity all you want, but un the end CONTINUITY ALWAYS MATTERS.

[@blackbenten]

I’m so used to bittersweet endings in Star Wars that I was kind of thrown off with the ending of the Bad Batch. The series was enjoyable nonetheless especially the 2 part episodes where Rampart is betrayed for the arrival of the Stormtroopers.

[@cory5197]

Rian Johnson’s Last Jedi is what destroyed the whole thing. Killing Snoke off just like that when that character could have been explored more and been the main villain of the new trilogy. The damage control after that was uncontrollable

[@Z45HR4]

I honestly prefer Star Wars being treated more as a historical memoir of a cohesive universe. There's some room for discrepancies. But not massive lore breaks like what happened in the sequels or Obi Wan show. I like being able to know something from somewhere else and using that knowledge to better understand a movie or video game. One example is seeing the "hammer head corvette" in rogue one and knowing where it came from and how much history that ship must have had. Another example outside of Star Wars would be knowing about things like mimics in D&D. You see a weird chest and may decide to leave it alone purely because you know it's probably a dangerous creature without anything telling you explicitly.

[@PsychedelicDude]

The sequels are nothing but a huge immersion-breaker. There is nothing they can do to 'fix' that besides remaking them.

[@belislemathieu2061]

The entire sequel trilogy is a mess to be fair.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

I don't really like nor respect the idea that those of us that like continuity are somehow missing the point, I get the messages, but there's more to a story than just it's message. if all GL wanted to do is teach a message, than be a mentor or something. kind of over that "you miss the point if you prefer one aspect of this thing over an another"

[@zacharyfett2491]

An untrained Stormtrooper took Kylo to the brink.

[@michaelblackett8195]

They trolled the fans and divided them.

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

disneys first concern is money

[@McCrapweasel]

They know. They don't care.

[@saberiandream316]

It's the Disney Star Wars way, where you must swallow the shit they give us.

[@McCrapweasel]

@saberiandream316 You don't have too. They just think we're too weak and stupid to turn our backs.

[@saberiandream316]

@@McCrapweasel And tbf, they're damn right. The normies will always keep them in business. Look at the Disney+ shows.

[@heraldsloth]

I remember the entire theatre at the premiere of The Force Awakens laughing through most of the movie, most people generally enjoyed it but we all laughed when Kylo took off his helmet. We all laughed when he has his tantrum, but we weren't laughing at the "funny moment" we were laughing at this juvenile trying to be Darth Vader.

[@Morpheuskingofdreams]

I’m not watching anything… in theaters

[@marquisrice2077]

Love your videos, but I disagree with one point, if Lucas didn’t care about continuity, why did he remaster all the originals with content to make them seamless with the prequels, I.e. Hayden ghost, boba’s voice etc

[@Sjaddix]

If they thought the ST was successful…then this Rey movie would not be the first content following the ST. No shows, no movies and no Videogame stake place that move the timeline forward

[@ThisHandleSystemCanGetNicked]

They're gearing up to release The Acolyte. They haven't learned anything at all.

[@TribuneReckster]

Godamn. How can a Rian Johnson sandwich with JJ Abrams bread not leave you completely unsatisfied and feeling like you have food poisoning? These films, save Force Awakens, are soul destroying beer piss. If Disney were to start again right from the beginning , A New Hope, and make them all again. Like Taylor Swift making all that music again maybe even in animation they could right the wrongs.

[@JoRoq1]

Fortunately, Disney is forbidden by the Lucasfilm sale contract from ever remaking, re-editing, or otherwise altering movies 1-6. There will be no Disney Special Editions, at least as long as Lucas or his future estate manager stay on top of things.

[@michaelcuddihee6754]

dollar bill is all the house of mouse is about , short term, short sided, no vision

[@Emanon...]

I'll tell you what I really think: I don't give a shit anymore. Like the MSU, there are no stakes or meaning to any of the characters or story, if they just keep making continuations. It's "days of our lives" in space. And I don't like sand. Even in an hourglass...

[@jacksparrow9227]

You need the little mistakes to not be in there or else you don't have a cohesive narrative or story that makes sense when you have inconsistency in the story's world

[@zigurdur92]

I highly disagree that Last Jedi made Kylo Ren worse villain. Last Jedi gave Kylo Ren similar possibilities that Paul Atreides got in Dune Part two. We had potential of Dark side Skywalker becoming a master of his own destiny and Darth Vader without the emperor. Skywalker who could have had his own empire in his image something which his grandfather failed to do as Darth. That was the greatest failure of Rise of not going fully dark side with Kylo Ren and making him a master of his destiny.

[@sithtalker]

You give them too much credit. I honestly don't think they know they messed up

[@ruffdawgg]

I am almost convinced that stories are being ruined purposely. There have been several in recent years.

[@saberiandream316]

Never underestimate their sheer incompetence.

[@ruffdawgg]

@@saberiandream316also, never underestimate the desire of the powers that shouldn’t be to demoralize people

[@saberiandream316]

@@ruffdawgg True. There is only one specific type of customer they want, and all others are nothing to the talking heads at Lucasfilm.

[@stephenelberfeld8175]

What would be the point of following the adventures of a particular character for years as they grow older, if we shouldn't care what happens to them? It's just a pointless campfire tale. Disney has shown it regards Star Wars heroes as nothing more than expendable cartoon characters and has lost much of it's fan base, while not engaging enough new fans with an on-going saga of an optimistic future which Star Wars was before the Sequel Trillogy.

[@BoyKagome]

Uh... "The hero has to be weaker than the villain." Superman, One Punch Man, Inuyasha, Technically Attack On Titan, Prequels...

[@juansolo94]

Siento que parte de los fans de Star wars tienden a preferir que las historias esten de algún modo relacionadas con la trama principal de las películas, y que eso compensa guiones malos, aburridos y repetitivos. Por ejemplo, Kenobi y Ahsoka son de las peores series que ví en mi vida (no solo de Star wars), pero el hecho de que rellene espacios vacíos ya basta para que algunos se sientan satisfechos y esperen una segunda temporada. Y Disney entiende esto y lo usa a su favor para seguir produciendo (en su mayoría, no todo) basura. Dónde lo único importante es que el protagonista se cruce con Darth Vader en algún momento y Joda haga algún cameo random enseñándole algo de la fuerza. Siento que en este punto no me molestaría que las historias difieran un poco de la trama general con tal de que sea una buena historia con personajes entrañables de verdad. Que no tengan que unirse a la rebelión para salvar la galaxia y en el transcurso siempre conocer a Leia, Ahsoka, etc. y ser parte vital de una misión genérica de volar una fabrica de súper armas.

[@spacemanspud7073]

I dont think Vader vs Han and Rey vs. kylo is a fair comparison. Fundamentaly Vaders faliure wasn't his fault: it was a suprise attack and the other pilot panicked and knocked his ship out of control. Other than being shot, the fight between Rey and Kylo should extremely favorable to Kylo. Kylo was a guy supposed to be trained in the force and saber fighting by both Snoke and Luke. All Rey knows at this point is how to use a staff like a blugueon and zero training in the force. She wouldn't even be able deflect 3 laser bolts from droid blindfolded like Luke in ANH, and thats all Luke could do after two-ish whole days of training. If Vader was defeated in a one on one duel with Han on the death star it would be comparable, but luckily in 1977 the person in charge of writing wasn't an idiot.

[@originaldarkwater]

I think that Disney knows THAT they fucked up, I just don't think they know HOW they fucked up. Therefore, they don't have the first clue how to actually fix it.

[@dizehjvegnomis]

star wars is mythology, and i am fine with it being malleable..... *as long as the expanded universe is included*

[@saberiandream316]

Unfortunately, Disney and Filoni could care less about the EU. The EU is just there for them to steal from and rewrite in the context of Disney Star Wars.

[@kaleomariz1000]

If George Lucas really said that continuity is for wimps; then I regret investing so much of my energy on contemplating the lore of Star Wars. A certain lore is only as good as how realistic it is to the audience. This is why lord of the rings is so good. Because Tolkien made an effort to make Middle Earth as realistic as possible. ------------- Apparently it’s what Disney is going for. The Obi-Wan series was terrible to fans because it treated the wise sage-like character of Obi-Wan as a weak man full of regrets. In terms of story building it is more interesting and easier to make a story about a weak character becoming strong; than to start with an already strong character and have us contemplate his adventures. For Disney it is convenient to have a flexible lore; because respecting continuity is hard work.