What Does It Mean To Be A Metroidvania?

[@ArchitectofGames]

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[@shir0azure339]

Who else *Clapped* while reading this?

[@manamongmen3381]

DID YOU JUST MENTION MARATHON!?!?! I love you man.

[@relaetsecyr]

Thank you for providing entertainment in these trying times

[@dnddude9652]

This 👏🏻 is 👏🏻 how 👏🏻 you 👏🏻 clap! I’ll follow you anyway

[@evetslon]

Would you call antichamber a metroidvania as well then?

[@NoshuHyena]

The way I used to define Metroidvanias was that the "keys" for the "locked doors" instead of just being boring one-time-use things, were abilities or toys that you could play with and utilize for the rest of the game.

[@zawarudo3582]

P-Duck yeah that’s why Zelda isn’t a metroidvania because the “keys” are literally just keys

[@Gnidel]

@@zawarudo3582 Except sometimes they are abilities.

[@Alianger]

@@zawarudo3582 Zelda has both and Metroid has both in a sense (the missiles, some underused abilities like spring ball)

[@Kadaspala]

Zelda doesn't "just have keys." Its tools (hookshot, hammer, etc) are the new abilities that open new areas If its not a Metroidvania its because its not a 2d platformer. Otherwise the exploration and new abilities/tools to access new areas aspects are very much Metroidvania-esque.

[@zawarudo3582]

Kadaspala you can have a metroidvania that’s not a 2d platformer

[@juanrodriguez9971]

There is one quote from Shigeru Miyamoto saying something like "A good idea isn't that that solves only one problem, is an idea that solves multiple problems, maybe at the same time, maybe in different situation, but all with the same idea"

[@salemsaleh9577]

Basically Gloo canon from Prey. Also Breath of the Wild. More games need be like this not just metroidvanias.

[@VideoGameAnimationStudy]

Splatoon is classic Nintendo: inking your surroundings acts as a score towards the match, cover for you to hide in and a way to fill up your ink. Perfect dual purpose.

[@mr.magichat3614]

There really is a Miyamoto quote for any occasion

[@juanrodriguez9971]

@@mr.magichat3614 Here is another Miyamoto quote: "Slap dat ass 'cause it claps too hard"

[@juanrodriguez9971]

@@VideoGameAnimationStudy Also, opponent ink deals you damage and makes you walk slow, giving the player a reason why to use his/her ink for replace the opponents ink, climb on walls, and have a better control of the map. It's just a perfect mechanic.

[@adiveler]

Hollow Knight is one of the very few Metroidvania that actually have a true non-linear approach, and that you can get (some of) the upgrades in non-specific order! While in most other Metroidvania games, after getting an upgrade, you have actually only one true path to go.

[@EmeralBookwise]

Yes, and as such it's one of the few games in the genre that not only encourages exploration, but actually rewards it. Some Metroidvania's might have sequence breaks, but Hollow Knight is one of the few games that doesn't have an entirely fixed sequence in the first place. Honestly I think that approach might be even more important than the one example in this video of that game where each ability has multiple uses. Hollow Knight might be a game where each ability has only a single intended function, a simple lock and key format, but the way the game is laid out there are often alternative routes off the beaten path that can either bypass those locks, or at least lead into different zones where the player can acquire alternative powerups. Even if the player has to eventually backtrack to get an "older" powerup they previously skipped, the other powers they acquired in the interim can re-contextualize how they approach each challenge. This is what makes Hollow Knight not just a great game to play, but a great game to watch other people play, and sometimes see how way each player approaches exploration can lead to surprisingly different results.

[@alexeigarbuz8366]

@@EmeralBookwise And the best part is that you can actually "finish" the game without getting all the abilities. This is good game design in my opinion.

[@danielschinke6992]

@@alexeigarbuz8366 many other games does this, including most metroids, castlevanias and ori, axiom verge.

[@jean-pierrevanstaden4066]

I love Hollow Knight. It is one of the best games I have ever played. But I do wonder how interesting some of the later bosses could be if they required more of the end game abilities to get to. Because then their fights could have been more difficult.

[@elsv99]

@@jean-pierrevanstaden4066 I think they explored that pretty well with the dlc bosses

[@dooomalex]

Oh boy, you really are stepping into the fire this time

[@cryanek8286]

The reason why Ori doesn't give you Bash from the start is to show you the stark contrast between your mobility without bash and your mobility with it. If it was given right from the start, I think the ability would have lost some of the novelty it had. The designers chose this structure for a reason and not just to put a metroidvania logo on their game.

[@nickwooden5661]

exactly. people just wanna hate ori to make hollow knight look better than it really is.

[@airplanefood3576]

@@nickwooden5661 I liked both. I preferred hollow knight though because of the combat, and non-linear style. Ori I would say had a better graphic design, and easier to follow story.

[@Howitchewstofeel5gum]

@@nickwooden5661 Bro I'm so tired of the internet circle-jerk around Hollow Knight. I won't dispute that it's a good or even great game (I've personally only played it very briefly), but the fanbase can be incredibly annoying.

[@jaretco6423]

Christopher. Yeah. The Hollow Knight fanbase are really annoying. Not calling the game bad and I respect for it's refreshing comeback of Metroidvania style games. But it's no masterpiece nor not as an perfect as some claims.

[@alecchristiaen4856]

And Will of the Wisps, being a sequel, can introduce it more quickly, partially because you also get another bunch of cool mechanics to round out mobility (like burrow and grapple).

[@Red-fu5nb]

I think Ori 1 was quite revolutionary for it's design. I believe one of the creators said they aimed to create a metroidvania where the environment itself is the main character. So they focused on creating a beautiful world and a dynamic moveset for Ori, making just the act of traversing the map both a joy, a challenge and a kind of artistic expression.

[@thenateyoulove]

Really wanted to like ori but just couldn't get into it

[@Red-fu5nb]

@@thenateyoulove Is fine. We can all like different games. I'm an absolute Ori fanboy but I can see why some people may not like it. Maybe you'd prefer Hollow Knight - it's more combat and exploration focused but there's also a lot of heart to it. Or maybe metroidvanias are just not your thing and that's okay too

[@vorbo01]

The problem with Ori is the art is great but it's not good as a game. There's really no challenge, you're just kinda running through a (albeit gorgeous) forest.

[@ΧρήστοςΖενεμπίσης]

​@@vorbo01 It's a pretty tough game, but the point of ori is mostly the plot, music, art in general which make it a masterpiece

[@vorbo01]

@@ΧρήστοςΖενεμπίσης I mean....no. Ori wasn't a challenge in the slightest lol.

[@warkiller]

A little note regarding the Ori games: The Dash and Light Burst abilities were actually first introduced in the Definitive Edition of Ori and the Blind Forest. And they were tweaked up for the sequel.

[@Czesnek]

Dash is the same, but light burst got nerfed.

[@Cri_Jackal]

Dash was pretty useless in the first game since none of the platforming was designed with it in mind, it was mostly there just to speed up traversal. It's been one of my favorite abilities in the second game so far, though, since that game has it from the outset.

[@ayyq6795]

@@Cri_Jackal dash made things more fun as I can go way faster

[@myhairhasamindofitsown]

An interesting video. But I will say that while the Vengeful spirit is the first upgrade you get, that is not the upgrade that helps you recontextualize the world. Vengeful spirit is primarely an offensive tool (specially in early game where it does 3 times you nail damage), the real key that opens up is the Mantis Claw, and this one really recontextualizes so many things, it potentially opens up almost all of the map.

[@RollinsFN]

I'm playing through the game right now, and yes this is absolutely correct, but I think it's an issue. It took me around a few hours to get to that section of the game since I wasn't looking anything up, and that kinda soured my enjoyment of the game in those early stages, it felt stiff and restrictive. I prefer what Bloodstained does, where your character starts with already fluid movement, but then provides you with other inventive tools to change how you explore and move.

[@nm9688]

And what about the dash ability

[@JanbluTheDerg]

I remember getting the double jump in Hollow Knight, returning to the Forgotten Crossroads only to discover that, oh shit, it's now the Infected Crossroads. Cue a panic. Hollow Knight also has some really great non-linearity to it. It's also no accident that you can get to some places without the double jump or dash by simply hitting the background objects for that pogo or using the Vengeful Spirit to remain in the air and get a small boost backwards, and I really love how the game has you reaching new areas by going through older areas.

[@bigtomcasual]

Dang. Spoiler alert lol

[@floodgaming1846]

imo hollow knight just took metroidvania and made it 10+ times better

[@Magnifico145]

@@floodgaming1846 Hyperbole much? How it is even 2 times better? Changing areas on return with new enemies and stuff? Wasn't that what Super Metroid itself did? Areas that can be reached sort of out of sequence? Wall jump is 'unlocked' right from the start of the game in Super Metroid, no? What is it that Hollow Knight did that's considerable upgrade over the general metroidvania trends present in a game such as Super Metroid? Only thing noted on the video here is that it's more combat focused with souls elements. If that's all then I wouldn't call that anywhere near making it "10+ times better".

[@amandaslough125]

​@@Magnifico145 generally speaking, the biggest thing Hollow Knight did was make sure to provide multiple paths accessible to the player through multiple power ups, thus a lot more freedom of exploration and no strict bottleneck locations. Otherwise, it was a game that offered more polished content than expected for the price with a highly unique and charming art style and came out right when there was a droubt for content in the targeted market.

[@dingomatic]

I've always thought Dark Souls 1's distinct yet interconnected areas-which are for the most part layered for meaningful revisits as players level up-served as a good example of how Metroidvania design can successful work on seemingly not-so-Metroidvania IPs (albeit with much less platforming involved).

[@InShortSight]

Dark Souls 1's design contains some of the best aspects of metroidvania. There's less puzzle solving and most power is delivered via an XP system (actually those points seem to fit with castlevania) but things like magic, pyromancy, weapons, armor, and especially magic rings (the rusted iron ring is a legit metroidvania style power up), can all be found spread across the map to encourage exploration and finding hidden areas. Oh and what a map it is! You start off after escaping the asylum at the firelink shrine. There's only one reasonable way to go, the graveyard leads to skeletons that will mess you up, the elevator leads to ghosts that will mess you up, so you are funnelled towards the undead burg; the ruins of a civilization. A short way into the berg you will traverse a fog gate; more of the burg, and then another fog gate, but wait! This one was a trick; you are now trapped on the castle ramparts with a boss fight. When you do make it to the elevator in the church after 3 (or many more) hours of gameplay, you are met with a familiar locale. Firelink shrine from the other direction, except now you have some more power under your belt, you're more ready to take on the world, and depending on what you've done, who you've helped, the world will change with you.

[@TheMetalOverlord]

Dark Souls isn't a metroidvania because new areas are not unlocked by actual ability but just by simple one use keys, and that's the opposite of a metroidvania core design. If you want to look at a big interconnected 3D world and true metoridvania look at Darksiders 3, it follow Dark Souls world building and style of gamepaly, but gatekeep new areas behind actual abilities like high jump, gliding and others different ones.

[@BoeJurrow]

Dark Souls is not a metriodvania.

[@JohnDoe_69]

Less platforming??? I think I died more times from falling than to actual enemies.

[@milkjug4237]

Nope nope nope, this is what I hate about game journalists sometimes. In the video he started loosely describing some non-platformers and even a puzzle game (The Witness) as like metroidvanias. Just cascades into a slippery slope eventually.

[@ibthedk7089]

Lmao I read this as "what does it mean to be a megalovania?" I was like hold up

[@Shon_-]

Friend:I like to burn villages and kill their people Me: oh in Minecraft? Friend:No Me:hold up

[@personorsomething740]

I’ll be honest I looked at this comment for an hour trying to see what you changed

[@retrothousand5722]

I'd love to see the Doom Eternal combat and movement systems in a metroid-vania world build.

[@noellyyra6111]

Thats a fucking dream game right there.

[@Orange_Swirl]

I think that really would only work for a linear game like Doom Eternal. If enemies constantly respawn, it sounds like it would get annoying real quick to backtrack, unless the player receives a significant power increase.

[@Noah-ost]

I was wondering if you'd bring up Metroid Fusion a bit more (even though you alluded to it), as that game actually innovated and made a lot of changes to the formula even back then; love it or hate it, you can't disagree that it did some of the very things you mentioned in this video about how the world changes around you. Before you kill the plasma boss, sector 2 slowly becomes covered in vines. The SA-X consistently destroys (and this changes) the world around you, forcing you to always be on your toes and think about the same rooms in new ways. There are more examples, but the point is that more people should pay attention to what that game does right (and what it does wrong), as it's taken many years for modern indie devs to begin to rediscover some of the same things that that game did years ago - copying Super isn't always the answer.

[@brux357]

Noah Fusion does has some frustrating gates, but I think it’s generally unfairly disliked

[@coyraig8332]

If only the areas were joined in more than one place. That's what killed it.

[@lewatoaofair2522]

And these environmental changes made it one of the more atmospherically foreboding titles in the series. Metroid is often credited for its dark atmosphere, and Fusion is seems to perfect it.

[@fengardice]

Metroid Fusion is an excellent game, just not an excellent metroidvania.

[@0xEmmy]

Fusion diverges from the Metroidvania formula very drastically. The game is driven by a storyline, rather than the player's exploration, and you're only ever given a small snippet of the world. I've played Fusion, and it's good, but it's missing the freedom of the game dropping you in a world and telling you, "here!", that I like in my games, and expect when I see a game branded as an MV.

[@AssasinZorro]

I really wanted you to mention Antichamber, as it did transform the way you interact with the world in pretty cool ways, but that's just because I love it so much.

[@bendystrawz2832]

I forgot that game exists. Has he played it? It really is unique!

[@AssasinZorro]

He might have, it was rather popular when it released. But it was not shown in any of his videos as far as I can tell

[@xomvoid_akaluchiru_987]

It can even turn things _red!_ MY GOD THIS IS REVOLUTIONARY

[@Jamandabop]

One correction: Vengeful spirit is WAY more useful than just as a glorified key. If you go for a spell build, it's ridiculously powerful.

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

Even in the early game before you can go for a spell build, it still deals 3 times the nail damage- allowing for differing playstyles since aggressive players will tend to use spells while more careful players will safe their soul for healing.

[@nm9688]

​@@JacobPDeIiNoNi Yup I'm the second kind. Plus nail combat is fun, satisfying and gives you more soul

[@stanislasvillard2795]

This is a great video in combination with "Do we need a Soulslike Genre ?" by GMTK

[@jakebaigent7582]

Th irony being that soulslikes are metroidvanias...

[@LimeyLassen]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@jamiemccreath3959]

Plus the "Downwell" video with abilities having many functions

[@jakebaigent7582]

@@jamiemccreath3959 i guess you could argue that stat allocations fit that role but it's one hell of a reach.

[@Lugbzurg]

@@jakebaigent7582 The first one, Demon's Souls, is *not.*

[@Knifetogunfight18]

I speedrun ori and the blind forest. and probably will also run will of the wisps soon. I love how the casual playthrough makes you think the game gives you the abilities very slowly while I think we get them perfectly timed. I just think its funny XD.

[@anotherKyle]

I disagree with what you said about ori's first game. I find the moveset you get so interesting and fun to use. I wouldnt even say the second part is much better. They expanded the moveset in a natural way and its even more fun to move around but the game as a whole seems less focused.´

[@LuddyFish_]

With Ori and the Will of the Wisp, it felt a pretty smooth transition from the first game to the next. Of course, you were going to have to start without most of your abilities but the fact that you get majority of them early on makes it so much easier to transfer your mindset from the end of the first game over to the next one. It's really only the new abilities that you get later on (other than light burst but that was dlc). So not only does this help new players who have never played the first game before not feel overwhelmed, but it also helps old players to not feel so restricted for too long. !!! SPOILER WARNING !!! I'd say after Shriek attacks Ku is when the second half of the story begins and by the time you're there, you have pretty much every ability you can get other than the ones you get in the exotic places. Even though you only are able to get 4 more abilities, they still feel very cool and extremely cool to receive. I remember going through the Mouldwood Depths and freaking out about being in the dark spots because you're under time pressure and then getting the light ability made things a whole less stressful which I was so glad to have. And burrow is so fun even though it's probably the last ability you get. Even though I had watched the Ori receive the abilities x times over, it was always amazing to see what new ability I would get and how they would work.

[@MattWyndham]

I think that one of the most addicting parts of video games is demonstrated well in Magic The Gathering. You learn the mechanics of the game and then you come up with a neat way to make those mechanics work together so that you win. I would say games like dark souls, slime rancher, LoZ botw, terraria, Minecraft, and all other really memorable games did this.

[@Atlessa]

Oxygen Not Included and Kerbal Space Program are my personal favourites in that regard.

[@jamiemccreath3959]

Good point. GMTK's "synergies" video talks about this if you're interested.

[@sparseseekers5851]

all fantastic games

[@boxcarjoethemagicobo]

I think my favorite part about ori and the will of the wisps, is the way you can use your imagination and skill to make your own ways around obstacles if you dont have the intended ability

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

Not really... Sometimes like with bash you can do this, but lots of the gates can really only be gotten past with their specific ability. You can't use "imagination and skill" to do anything about sand unless you specifically have burrow. Same for dark and flash, water speed and swim dash, etc. I'd say Hollow Knight and Metroid Dread (for example) have much more room to innovate how you complete challenges, but those also have abilities that are more generic than WOTW's. That's sort of the trade off, is that the more interesting you make abilities the more specific and limited their use cases often become. Abilities that are generic like double jumps and dashes tend to be much more generally useful than unique ones like ori's burrow.

[@qwerwert2739]

Supraland did such a good job of making abilities that actually felt useful instead of just being glorified keys

[@danielschinke6992]

Wow, that's the frist time I completely disagreed with literally every point you made. Cool video tho.

[@danielschinke6992]

@Grauken its terrible just because we disagree?

[@ArchitectofGames]

Now that's the kind of attitude we need to see more of on the internet! Kudos.

[@danielschinke6992]

@Grauken hm, i found that he was overreading somethings as lazy choices disguised as homage more than growing weary of it. I think our takes diverge in fundamentals, i dont see metroidvanias as only drinking from super metroid front. And ori itself is a great example, he said that the game hurts for trying to be a metroidvania instead of a plataformer. When i think the game would be extremely boring as just a plataformer, and its metroidvania charachteristics elavated it in one of the greatest metroidvania/plataformers that i've played.

[@DrTheRich]

I completely agree with literally every point he made

[@danielschinke6992]

@@DrTheRich even that guacamelee homage to metroid?

[@jakescott431]

In a few years, we will be getting videos called "What does it mean to be a Battle Royale?" Not sure if I'm looking forward to them or not.

[@moth5799]

I doubt it, they're not that popular anymore.

[@mephisto2872]

randomcat The last Call of Duty had a battle Royal Mode.

[@moth5799]

@@mephisto2872 Yeah and that came out about 5 months ago now, they're not very popular anymore.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

@Josiah Sepulveda Arena Shooters like Quake, MMO's, and MOBAs are definitely on the upswing. Online genres that are incredibly popular don't seem to get a return upswing.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

@Josiah Sepulveda With an enhanced focus on high speed, low gravity, and strange weapons. A genre all but extinct in the modern day where Battle Royals are popular and before then it was COD or Halo style shooters. There is a difference between styles of FPS games and Quake used to be hot sh*t but shooters like it are not popular or even made anymore. Also my first comment was being sarcastic, they are not on the upswing. HOTS is dying, same with Smite and LoL certainly doesn't have the title of most popular game anymore. WoW is definitely still lower in subscribers than during The Wrath of the Lich King. Not like Fuild Wars 2, FF 14, ESO, or Runescape is on top of the world with online games. These genres aren't going to die but we haven't seen any pattern with online games to believe they will return to being peak popularity. I certainly doubt in 10 years Auto-Chess will be the 20-million+ user game of the year.

[@mixttime]

I skipped the Will of the Wisp section, so apologies if you clarify anything in there, but I feel like your analysis of The Blind Forest came off as backwards to the rest of the video (but I do realize the BF segment was written to contrast with your segment of WotW). You want games that re-contextualize the world around you, but criticize BF for holding onto the bash ability for too long. But for a world to be re-contextualized, you need to spend time with the current world state. Yes there is a point where that comes too late to be of much use, but at least personally I don't think BF hit that point. Maybe it's an interesting test case of conflicting design, opening the question of how much BF's platforming suffered as a result of being a metroidvania. I think perhaps more on point of a complaint of BF as a metroidvania is that the Ginso Tree is home to two major revelations at once. Bash and fresh water could both have been very cool world opening moments on their own, but they were effectively merged into one giant moment. And yes that payoff is cool, but if that's an experience you're trying to deliver then it may be better for player experience to crank down the intensity knob a bit in exchange for the player being in that state of rediscovery for longer.

[@adamweinberg2532]

His point was that holding on to the bash needlessly crippled Blind Forest's early game platforming in order to get that re-contextualization and that there was a much better way to do it. His evidence was in the spoiler warning section, but I can avoid spoiling you by drastically oversimplifying and saying that Will of the Wisps uses backtracking and direct changes to the world environment to re-contextualize the game instead of relying entirely on gating and introducing abilities. This proves that you can still put all the tools in the player's hand early on and get that re-contextualization that makes for an interesting Metroidvania.

[@MrSilver530]

Completely agree with you. The thing about the bash in blind forest was that I remember it came out of nowhere. I struggled with the platforming and with enemy projectiles but thought "hey, i just have to get good". When I received the bash ability I saw the world and potential completely open up. Now projectiles are no longer a threat and platforming is much more fun. I honestly thought it was kind of an overpowered ability to be honest. But the thing is, I tried to replay blind forest recently before the sequel came out and I got a little tired of it because I missed having the bash ability right away, it really is a game changer. But having played a couple of hours of WotW, since everything is new I don't really mind not starting with bash because everything else got so much more refined.

[@TechBlade9000]

@@adamweinberg2532 So basically it's like that one minor gimmik in Megaman X1 expanded

[@cherubin7th]

He basically saied BF should be like Mario and not Metroid.

[@Raymando]

I agree. Also tbh you get the bash ability fairly early anyway.

[@KingAm0]

Yoku's Island Express is really underrated. I just found it somehow and played it and loved it.

[@kgoblin5084]

I ended up refunding it... while it was a good game, and a clever breath of fresh air the pinball mechanics were just NOT for me. I also don't think it's underrated... it got really good reviews and a lot of buzz. I think maybe I've just got company with folks who don't 'get' pinball.

[@xavier0237]

Definitely not underrated. It received good reviews and was nominated for several awards. It's an indie game and it has as much visibility as many other indie games.

[@arthurporter131]

Hollow Knight is so much more than an "uninterestjng" retread of classic Metroid design though

[@revimfadli4666]

Taking the whole game into account, indeed, but when we only talk about the Metroidvania-inspired aspects?

[@Jaydee-wd7wr]

Revi M Fadli, Yeah ignore anything not inspired by Metroid and complain it’s too much like Metroid....

[@revimfadli4666]

@@Jaydee-wd7wr depends on if the criticism's directed towards the whole game, or just the metroidvania parts

[@Umbrella2]

HK is a work of art, all of its components come together beautifully. It really has taken the genre to a new heights in my mind at least…

[@Raxyz_0]

17:42 I think Bloodstained RotN is a decent Castlevania. While it's not groundbreaking or even remotely as impactful as SotN was, it still *is* Castlevania. Sometimes playing the cards close to the chest works too, the game felt like a commemorative Castlevania title while not being completely derivative.

[@Air21Man]

I'd love to hear your take on Rain World since it is by no means a traditional Metroidvania, but instead like Toki Tori 2 where you progress by learning more about the world and its mechanics.

[@nunyabusiness8538]

ori and the blind forrest was one of my favorite games in recent years. playing axiom verge now and it hits alll the right notes for me. feels like gameboy game which i love

[@commenturthegreat2915]

I always try to think about how to use games for educational purposes. Imagine a metroidvania similar to The Witness or Toki Tori 2, but instead of having unique game mechanics, it uses something like math. I feel like that could be a fantastic way to teach children - think of how much more engaging it would be to learn these subjects in a game environment.

[@jamiemccreath3959]

Agreed. When I was first learning how different atomic bonds work, I was thinking "this would make a great video game"

[@kumatorahaltmanndreemurr]

A Witness-style game that teaches actual math/science would be soooo great. I need that to get made somehow.

[@Raymando]

So basically a math problem written on a colourful board? Or do you mean something else

[@Metushalakh]

Two notes: first, while imitations of Iga-Castelvania are rarer than those of Super Metroid they do exist, for instance Time Spinner. Wonder Boy imitators might also become a thing, Second, we have seen a good new Metroid, namely AM2R.

[@lewatoaofair2522]

*someone mentions AM2R* Nintendo: *hisses*

[@hikmori7]

It was irks me that Wonder Boy/Monster World don't deserve enough attention to the "metroidvania" fanbase (Come on, Sega! Market the darn thing!) I'll argue that Zelda 2 also fall on this sub-genre.

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

Now Dread!

[@NorthernDruid]

Interesting take. Personally, what draws me to the genre (same as with the Zelda series pre-BOTW), is the narrative drive at the back of the gameplay. Which is why my favourite metroidvanias are games like The Messenger, Timespinner and Iconoclasts (and Ori 1). Getting a new ability serves the same purpose as getting a new item in a Zelda game, or a new brush god in Okami. Not just to unlock or expand a new area, but to empower you in the narrative and pay off completing a challenge or reaching a new part of the story. I think it's healthy to reconsider how abilities are gained, and the purpose of gaining them. But I believe in putting more thought into the story bits surrounding the progression of the game is the right approach, rather than trying to redefine the genre from the bottom up. Besides, to redefine the way the genre is constructed you'd need to define the genre itself first, and Metroidvania is the most undefined genre yet so...

[@duchi882]

Adam Millard's contents is perfect for staying at Home during the Quarantine

[@joebykaeby]

What you call “merely lock-and-key world design” is exactly what I mean when I use the word “metroidvania.” What you’re talking about here has value of its own, but in my opinion it’s a totally different thing.

[@KennKuun]

I think his point is that that's not what makes metroidvanias fun and is not the primary focus of a metroidvania game. While metroidvanias do often have lock-and-key design, the technique is employed for the express purpose of meeting a higher-level design goal that needs to be narrowed down first. For example, while people consider Toki Tori 2 to be a metroidvania due to its lock-and-key nature, the developers were not making a game about locks and keys. They were making a game about having all the keys from the beginning, and requiring the player to find them on their keychain. Someone's going to try to call me out for saying that, but there is a difference. So I don't think it's a totally different thing. You're free to identify metroidvanias by noting their lock-and-key structure, but it's not necessarily what you're enjoying about the game. And I suppose that's something people need to realize when trying to design a metroidvania.

[@joebykaeby]

@@KennKuun Except it is exactly what I'm enjoying about the game. The fun of a Metroidvania is running around the world and noticing all the things you can't do yet, keeping track of where all of those obstacles are, and then the excitement of getting something new and realizing which of them you can now overcome and the challenge of getting back to them and seeing what new adventures await on the other side. That mechanic is not enough to make a game by itself, I agree; but it is enough to make a game a Metroidvania. And that's my only point - everything else we're discussing is part of the larger game design, beyond what that name implies. Looking at the bigger, deeper picture is great, but you're looking past the Metriodvania part to other aspects of the game.

[@KennKuun]

@@joebykaeby That's fair. Metroidvanias use locks-and-keys to direct the player through the interconnected world. I suppose the rest of what I mentioned is what separates "stale" metroidvanias from innovative ones.

[@joebykaeby]

@@KennKuun I agree - we've gotten well past the point where simply being a Metroidvania is enough to make a game good, or even worth playing - in the same way that a game can't simply be a first-person shooter or a 4X-based civilization simulator. But we don't accuse a game of not being a "real" FPS because all it has is guns and a first-person perspective.

[@SunroseStudios]

thank you adam for confirming that hollow knight is the dark souls of metroidvanias

[@Koborakai]

I enjoyed the video, as well as your others. I really love this kind of content, so thank you! I want to address the part of the video about Ori and the Blind Forest because it's one of my favorite games and I've played through it a lot, including a huge number of speedruns just for fun. I haven't played Ori and the Will of the Wisps yet (although I can't wait to do so!), so I can't comment on that and I skipped that part of the video. I think the devs of Ori and the Blind Forest were being more deliberate than your video makes it seem, especially regarding the first half of the game. I think they may even have been aware of the conflict about what the game wants to be and integrated it. I hope perhaps my explanation will be an interesting new perspective for those who don't like parts of the game so much. They may have started with the idea of making it Metroidvania-like, but that wasn't the be-all-end-all. It seems more to me like the Metroidvania design was their starting point, but they ended up making a game with story and mechanics that develop running parallel with each other. The first half of the game is more combat-focused. It's a low point for Ori where he hasn't really cultivated his own identity or direction and needs Sein's combat abilities to defend himself, being a vulnerable child lost in some foul and decaying woods without any real idea of what he's doing. I don't think the devs wanted you to have these excessively empowering movement abilities at that time. Instead, they wanted you to fight tooth-and-claw to make your way through the woods, piecing things together as you go and facing setbacks along the way. It is a time of despair and struggle, and I think that's why the spammy combat is there along with you dealing with smaller obstacles early on. This is a setup to contrast with later, but also a time for learning the basics. The second half of the game is more platforming-focused. This is where Ori really comes into his own, having learned to rely on his own versatile movement abilities, some of which can be used for attacking enemies. He has grown from a vulnerable child into the hero the forest needs to bring new life. The story and themes start to take shape and pick up speed. In general, during this part of the game, the best practice is to avoid combat as much as possible, because simply thinking of enemies and projectiles as platforming tools is more fun and will get you to your goals faster. This is where the unique elements of the game really start to shine. The Ginso Tree sequence is the transition between the two modes of play I described in the previous two paragraphs. It is done with such a vibrant fanfare that I cannot believe it was anything other than deliberate by the devs. It's not just that the paradigm shift is built into the "bash" ability that you learn in the tree, and it's not just that the following gauntlet makes sure that you become proficient at it. It's also that the entire segment is a rite of passage, with a spiritual awakening sort of streak to it, with the express purpose of teaching the player as well as Ori how to mature and become successful in this story and game. Out with the combat-focused gameplay, in with the highly-maneuverable platforming-focused gameplay Out with Sein's old, lackluster combat abilities, in with Ori's new, powerful, and adaptable movement abilities Out with simple, generic mechanics, in with new and refreshing mechanics Out with just getting your bearings and figuring things out, in with restoring nature and facing the main antagonist of the game, who has seen your big accomplishment and is now pursuing you Out with what is dead and decaying, in with the waters of new life All of the most important sequences of the game reinforce this new paradigm, having little to no combat in them. Even Kuro herself, as the antagonist, is pretty much a force of nature that you can do no damage against. And now, anytime you find yourself getting bogged down in the combat again, you will get that familiar feeling from the first half of the game of struggle and despair. Then you will realize that you're falling back on old, ineffective habits, and return to using the abilities you were meant to use. You may even realize that on subsequent playthroughs you can apply your new combat-avoidance platforming mindset to make the first half of the game much easier, avoiding a lot of the spammy combat. For instance, you can often just jump over the big-blobs-that-split-into-smaller-blobs and continue on your way without an issue. You can also time your jumps through the spike-shooty-blobs without getting hit. I didn't think of these when I was intuitively attacking everything in sight on my first run. The Ginso Tree is probably Ori and the Blind Forest's most famous segment, but I really don't think the build-up to the Ginso Tree would be the same without the first half of the game being the way it is. And that's not to say the game isn't flawed. Maybe there could have been one less early-game segment, and one more late-game segment, to extend out the really good stuff. It could be that the first half is just a bit too long. Or maybe I just can't think of how they could replace the entire first half with something better. Maybe I'll see that with Ori and the Will of the Wisps. P.S. Charge flame can be useful! It's situational. I've seen speedrunners use it and...okay, it's not that great.

[@CricketStyleJ]

Well said. You are going to love Will of the Wisps.

[@10001vader]

@@CricketStyleJ I feel like I'm the only person who didn't like all the changes in Will of the Wisps. I think the shift to focus more on combat really hurt the game, and the long escape sequences, my favorite part of Blind Forest, were either shortened dramatically or replaced with mediocre-to-bad boss fights. I think Will of the Wisps is amazing, but I don't get why everyone thinks it's better than the first game in every way.

[@DanKaschel]

I preferred blind forest, but really enjoyed wisps.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

@@10001vader I finally found someone. I was actively dissapointed constantly in that game. I think the combat and terrible new movement abilities absolutely trashed what made the first game so amazing. The game is still good, but a huge dissapointment. It isn't a sequel to Ori and the Blind forest, it is a game trying to combine a bunch of Metroidvania's with the paint of Ori.

[@chickensangwich97]

This sort of gets at a point in an old Extra Credits video that always stuck with me: we define game genres in a really weird way, by a few of their tropes instead of by their emotional experiences. "First-Person Shooter" is a set of traits that can refer to Doom or Resident Evil 7 or Portal, all wildly different experiences. It'd be like if we had a film genre called "20-something looks out rainy train window" instead of a genre called "romance" or "coming-of-age tale." So when I think of Metroidvanias, I think the defining emotional experience of the genre is going from isolation and fear to empowerment and mastery, especially as it relates to your relationship with a physical space. You're dropped into the world without any tools and no understanding of how this world works, how big it is, what you ought to be watching out for, etc. Then you not only gain abilities to hold your own against its dangers, but you learn about how every part of this world fits together physically and how it's physics and systems interact and connect. What was once a weird patch of dirt that made a weird rattling sound for no clear reason is now a Desolate Dive spot, for example. That's what makes something a Metroidvania in my book -- going from feeling alone, afraid and cautious to feeling like the master of the domain. Your growth as a player is also reflected in your character's growth, which usually involves physically transforming in some way to signify growth, and always means accomplishing feats you never thought were possible in those first few minutes. That's why navigation abilities are so crucial to this genre -- to again take Hollow Knight as an example, going from just being able to walk and jump to being able to dash, jump, double-jump, pin jump, wall-jump, air dash, wall slide, super-dash...it feels great to do, and means that rooms which were once massive and imposing are now playgrounds for you to mess around in. I agree that a lot of modern Metroidvanias are a bit too precious about Super Metroid's particular formula. The point about every Metroidvania needing an ammo-limited early key weapon is very well taken. But I also think it's important to keep in mind that what you take away from a given genre, what feels like it's most crucial elements to you, might not be true for someone else. And also that the Metroidvania is a subgenre of the action and platformer genres, so it can already feel limited what does and doesn't get to call itself a Metroidvania. (I bristled a bit at including 3D games, even Metroid Prime, in your genre examples. But again, that's a completely arbitrary rule I made up in my head!) So I guess before you can ask whether Metroidvanias as a genre have gotten stale, you have to ask what the intended emotional experience of the Metroidvania even is, and whether that answer might be different for you than for someone else. Which, again, is really hard since we define video game genres really weirdly.

[@night1952]

Except Doom's core gameplay is shooting, RE7's is resource management and Portal is solving puzzles. They are a FPS, a first person survival horror and a first person puzzle game. Why would emotions be something that defines a genre when there's very clear mechanics that actually define it. Also, a game can have multiple genres, in RE7's case, the first person shooting is definetly there, but it's secondary.

[@ebbandfloatzel]

A slight iteration of what Grim said, but mechanics are a much better way to define things. They are clear and give you a understanding of how the game plays, and it's up to you to like how it feels. If we go by how a game feels as a way to make genres, we'll get way to many "souls-like" genre bubbles that are WAY to specific to ever get real meaningful terms down like "platformer."And while Rust clearly has some Battle Royale inspiration somewhere laid in there (like the literal Battle Royale, not the genre,) the core gameplay is that of a Survival game. So it's an Open World Sandbox PVP Survival game. Which while is a cluttered genre tag that only games like it can call itself that, it explains how the game plays using the mechanical terms we can use for other games as well, choosing each and every term as we see fit. It's also why we can have survival horror fps games like Resident Evil, Horror Puzzle games like that one top down japanese game where you explore demon infested streets of your neighborhood looking for your sister who went looking for your dog, and open world survival horror games like Project Zomboid. ALL of which with a specific "feel" to them (they're all horror games after all, so you feel powerless in the face of your enemies) but all play vastly different.

[@Scerttle]

I agree with grim and Alex’s points and would like to also suggest that films are passive engagement by nature, games are active engagement. The experience itself hinges on the mechanics in games.

[@derbezacesanchez3779]

I think the term metroid-like is what metroidvania seems to imply. So, not every concept found in the NES and SNES is found fully used in every game. I think the Varia suit was needed for a heat resistance and increased defense, and it changed how Samus looked. You could not avoid going the hot areas of Norfair, as say poison swamps in Souls. The Super Metroid wall jump and regular bombs could be used near the beginning of the game to access basic upgrades earlier for skillful players. How fast you completed the game gave you a different ending sequence. Super Metroid's crystal flash method to refill energy tanks is unique:The technique is performed by holding down both angle buttons, down on the directional pad, and the fire button all at once while in Morph Ball mode. She cannot use it if there is any energy in her Reserve Tanks, and her energy must be below fifty units. It consumes ten each of Power Bombs (11 if you count the one that she has to lay), Super Missiles, & Missiles. Boss combat in Super Metroid did not have fast evasive dashes or invincible roll evades.

[@dimman77]

Where does Wonderboy 3: The Dragon's Trap (Sega Master System) fall into this? Precedes Super Metroid by a significant amount of time and had an open world side scroller that limited access based on whether your sword was upgraded to break bricks and what movement or attack capabilities you had based on your form.

[@Scerttle]

dimman77 I personally think of it as a metroidvania

[@booski1865]

It's an excellent game, and if there was justice in the world it would get shared credit (along with other early ones like Blaster Master) rather than Castlevania. WB 3 even did the opening the game with the finale from the previous game that SOTN did many years later.

[@VideoGameAnimationStudy]

Well, WB3 came out a few years after the first Metroid and Castlevania 2, arguably the two games which later fed into Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night. I'd say WB3 merely expanded the idea of Metroid and CV2.

[@booski1865]

@@VideoGameAnimationStudy hey there!--fan of your work. I've always considered Castlevania 2 more similar to Zelda 2, minus the overhead parts. Side note, I know Iga credits Zelda for inspiring SotN but that's kind of like that Owl City guy saying he wasn't influenced by Postal Service, c'mon now. Anyway, I know you did a video on The Dragon's Trap, curious if you've played Monster Boy or Aggalos by chance?

[@todesziege]

@@VideoGameAnimationStudy I'd say WB3 expanded on Monster Land, which mixed Wonder Boy 1's Super Mario-esque platforming with the then recent Dragon Quest. I don't think Metroid was much of an influence there, if anything there are older home computer titles which are more likely inspirations.

[@Emelenyt]

It is interesting that the genre exists around the level design as opposed to the mechanics of the character. I suppose that's why the formula can be bundled with different types of games. Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order is a great example. It took me so long to realise what makes a Metroidvania a Metroidvania

[@ClemmyGames]

Good video! My favourite genre so this sums it up nicely!

[@shybandit521]

Personally: Metroidvania means a series of keys and locks but the locks are invisible and they keys are movement abilities. (Sometimes actual locks and actual keys appear but the exception is not the rule)

[@ruggie.74]

I am extremely glad that someone FINALLY pointed out the fact that all these games are inspired by Metroid and not TRULY by Castlevania (in the way you described).

[@todesziege]

When the term Metroidvania started being used it referred specifically (and somewhat derogatorily) to the sub-series of Castlevania games that in some fans minds were more like Metroid than Castlevania (at that point, pretty much only Symphony of the Night and Circle of the Moon, maybe Harmony of Dissonance had come out too). It wasn't a genre label, and wasn't meant to be one, which is why it doesn't really make sense as one.

[@andrewstambaugh8030]

I think the aspects you called out are those which make an excellent metriodvania, as opposed to a mediocre metroidvania. As you pointed out, some of the games fitting in your definition don't play really at all like metriod or castlevania... as in - they are a different genre. No rebadging would fix that. They share good aspects, but they really are just a different *type* of game. The key defining features for what I consider metriod/metriodvania are: *1. Side view* *2. Freedom of movement* (eg can generally backtrack and move as you please, allows you some control over pacing) *3. Emphasis on combat* (It's not sonic the hedgehog - just jumping around won't save you; the enemies are more of a concern, so slowing just a little for more combat strategy is safer) *4. Increasing permanent abilities* (you don't start with everything, nor are abilities just powerups; generally they also improve your interactions with the world) Done well, this leads to a game that feels freeing, like YOU get to explore it and inspires anticipation "I wonder if this does something?" and aha moments "oh, all those things I've been seeing are actually..." In contrast to that is: *Sonic the hedgehog - all about the movement* Yes it has secret areas to find etc, but no one is going to confuse a reskinned sonic the hedgehog game for any metroid/castelvania game. You have freedom of movement (and can usually backtrack), but you have no control over pacing, and the focus is away from combat, especially strategic combat. If you've stopped to think about how to handle an enemy in a sonic game, you are already thinking of restarting.... *Super Mario -The game pushes you along.* Your pacing and even your direct movement are constantly being pushed/constrained. It isn't you moving around in the game, it's Mario. I think temporary powerups are fun (and should be in more games), but they aren't a new tool that's always in your bag. It's sequels did much better jobs of both having things for you to find/figure out with those new abilities, enabled carrying those abilities to other levels (making them more ability-like than powerup), and very notably the in-level freedom of movement was way up (could backtrack and re-try things, for example), but you never needed an ability from a prior level (ok, rarely,depending on the game). And because of how you need to carry that ability from another level or pick it up mid level, it doesn't feel like your innate power, it feels more like picking up the key from that area of the map and having to carry it over here to the door. *and even if all those other aspects became a lot more metroid-like, it would still feel more like what it is - a platformer at heart, rather than metroid or castlevania combat centric platformer. If we were to reverse this and say metroid is mario-like, I would agree that they are both side-view games with platforming, but I would contend that the entire feel of the game is different, and that while some skills would transfer - the way you play/approach them is different. *And they will appeal to different moods and types of people. Mario is very approachable at first, just-try-it. It clearly expects you to fail a lot/re-try in the beginning. And the way it is divided up makes each level feel like a discreet challenge (especially in the sequels). But as it goes along, it shifts to require high amounts of level-memorizing, so you can already be where you will need to be for something off screen. *Castlevania pushes for combat prowess -which is comparatively punishing at first, as you can't just rush in everywhere or you will get hit by enemies. And the game feels more in-depth, like a campaign that you are losing if you fail, so that little failure feels much bigger. There isn't a discreet level, there is a huge map that your using up too much now could leave you short what you need later. But all those things also lead to a game that feels like a deeper and more personally connected experience than a Mario game.

[@maurobraunstein9497]

I'm a bit surprised that you didn't explore the Zelda direction, because what we call "metroidvanias" weren't *actually* inspired by Super Metroid, originally. Symphony of the Night was inspired by Zelda; La-Mulana was inspired by Maze of Gallious and Hydlide. Super Metroid has one of the purest and most straightforward implementations of the idea of ability-gated non-linear exploration, which is why people have made the comparison, but it neither originated nor popularized the idea. All these metroidvanias you featured came out at least a decade and a half after Symphony of the Night, which also neither originated nor popularized the idea. Of course, Zelda games are not metroidvanias, because

[@atijohn8135]

because? There's no platforming in them, I guess?

[@sealdrive9117]

Maybe its because Zelda is typically more linear?

[@kumatorahaltmanndreemurr]

Did you accidently press post before you finished typing?

[@maurobraunstein9497]

@@kumatorahaltmanndreemurr No, not accidentally.

[@johnnyslokes2712]

Zelda isn't much of a platformer and it doesn't matter what the makers were inspired by or intended to accomplish, it only matters what the consumers think.

[@wariodude128]

I think a really unique metroidvania is Wario Land 3. Second game I ever owned and is the reason I'm into videogames. It's mission based, by having you collect coloured keys and find the corresponding treasure chest. Four chests in twenty five levels. Most of the treasures inside said chests, however, actively change the landscape of the world; either by opening new levels or altering a previous one. Some of the treasures do give you abilities, but by the time you get them you're already familiar with the game. Plus, there's a place that tells you where to go next if you need it. Completed the game many times over and is highly recommended. Yes, it's also the reason my avatar is a trollfacing Wario.

[@cherubin7th]

I still find the metrovania genre more diverse and original than all the fts out there that look identical to me.

[@shubhamghoshal2939]

I feel like having multiple ways to get past any barrier and allowing sequence breaking, is a core part of making a good metroidvania in which the path through the game doesn't just feel like a complicated straight line

[@enricobusetto7196]

I would warn for spoilers for the witness, what is shown on video is pretty important to the whole experience the game tries to convey. Awesome video as always tho ;)

[@Cosmic_Cretin]

Yeah spoiling the big secret of the game is not cool

[@iminumst7827]

The point of this video is very important. Video games are more than a sum of their parts, they are works of art designed with a vision to inflict emotions in the player. A lot of video game categories are very strange in that they are defined by mechanics not by the experience. For example movies are grouped by the primary emotion they try to evoke; romance, action, thriller, mystery, and so on. Whereas about half of the common game categories are specific groups of mechanics rather than emotions; shooter, survival, open-world, rogue-like, and so on. Imagine how weird it would be if I described the Walking Dead TV series as a "shooter" genre and a "survival" genre. It's a very superficial way of describing something because not every movie, show, and game that has shooting guns is meant to evoke the same feelings. Deadpool is not a "third-person-shooter" movie, it's a comedy - action movie. These superficial categories are innately restrictive, because often these categories are groups of specific mechanics, so for a game to qualify for a genre it has to use the bulk of the same mechanics as the genre-defining games. Sometimes this works, but sometimes the game could do a better job instilling that emotion if they had more freedom with their mechanics. Metroidvania and Souls-like are some of the worst categories because they even use the name of specific games, which makes the category have the least flexibility. Imagine if instead of "fantasy" we called those types of movies and shows "Rings-like" (referring to Lord of the Rings). If someone wanted to make a "Rings-like" movie or show they would need to have magic, elves, swords, and be filmed in live-action. This restrictive category wouldn't include Harry Potter, Avatar the Last Airbender, Dark Crystal, Game of Thrones, Wizard of Oz, Clash of the Titans, ect. We would instead be getting a lot of Lord of the Rings clones, which might satisfy some fans of the specific sub-genre, but it also may make other fans angry that the category is cheapening the source and make non-fans disappointed that there aren't more original content. I think a lot of people won't like this video because it seems like you are trying to nit-pick games that people like, but I don't see that as something you are doing. I interpret your point as you saying that Ori 1 isn't bad, but that Ori 2 is better because it was more free to express it's own artistic vision by embracing it's more platforming intensive take on the Metroidvania genre. Ori 1 tried to copy the Metroidvania mechanic of growth and empowerment, but it didn't truly consider the negative impact that would have on their platforming strength.

[@kevinolmedo675]

Once again, we are provided by the drug we are all needing in this dark times to enjoy, for a few minutes, of happiness.

[@billybadass7718]

Kevinglas Olmedo are we?

[@rollingkirby]

That’s why I love hollow knight it creates a unique environment that grows with you,enemies become allies and you discover little things that give you this aha moment Each item can work differently and fits in the world The spells can be used for a variety of things,both combat,platforming and interacting with the world The neutral items like the mothwing cloack and lumafly lamp normally only have one use but are very well integrated in the world,in a point that you can skip some of them entirely The nail arts are powerful technics to use with your nail and if you know how to use them they will be very rewarding And finally the charms are unique and provide a variety of effects Each one has a unique play style that doesn’t discourage you to try or don’t try new things and that’s a phenomenal design idea

[@lewisacevedo5914]

“And Chao” I’m so glad that’s the last name haha

[@ingeniousclown]

Love this video! At first I thought you were being a little unfair to some of the games, but then I realized that hey, you're dang right. As much as I love Guacamelee, it's lock design for your abilities was super boring. Though I think it balanced out a bit by those same abilities doubling as movement abilities, a stroke of genius on their part. As much as I love and write about metroidvanias myself, I never really managed to put the appeal of them quite as succinctly as you did. Exploring the evolution of your relationship with the world is such a great way to describe the way a good metroidvania FEELS, and why some of the more memorable of this genre are, well, memorable. Though I do thing it's a bit unfair to insinuate that the reverence towards Super Metroid is stifling the genre. As you mentioned at the front of the video, the genre has only recently surged in popularity (around 2015 is what I call "the metroidvania renaissance"), and as you explored with Dark Souls, it's likely to spawn a litany of people trying to copy what they love. The FPS, in comparison, has had DECADES of mainstream success to evolve! So it's just a matter of time.

[@KhaoMortadios]

Great video, but Blind Forest was one of the best games last decade despite playing it safe with its structure, and it still has its strenghts in comparison to Will of the Wisps, so nyeh! Seriously though, that's an interesting way to think about Metroidvanias. Not sure if I agree entirely with it, but to me, it's less that we're wrong about what a Metroidvania _is_, but that the Metroidvania elements are not necessarily by itself the thing that captures the spirit of the classics. I feel like the Metroidvania label is very clearly defined. But closely following a formula doesn't immediately guarantee that your game will be as great as the others that do the same. Biggest takeaway is... Design things in service of your game. Not in service of your genre.

[@danielschinke6992]

Ori 2, is hands down the best iteration of metroidvania to date. (Even if i prefer HK as a game) If it had a less linear structure, more advanced secrets and a bigger world, it would be the perfect game.

[@fiso64]

@@danielschinke6992 Why would Ori 2 be a better metroidvania than HK? Actually, I wouldn't say it's a metroidvania at all, it's too linear.

[@danielschinke6992]

@@fiso64 too linear? Hk openes isnt a baseline for metroidvanias and Linearity does not disqualifies it as metroidvania. It has more combat options, fewer but better designed bossfights, incredible setpieces, and in many ways better level design and finally the best movement in any 2d game. All if it blending perfectly in the experiênce. Not forgeting to mention that HK is a close second for entirely different reasons. (And still my all time favourite game)

[@Vonias]

@@danielschinke6992 I'll agree with incredible set pieces and the best (at least in terms of feel) movement but absolutely the boss fights are not even that well designed, they have a few attacks, a lot of health and some of them don't really do anything particularly interesting. Mora's fight was cool with the mid fight chase transition but yeah, I don't know how you can consider Ori 2's bosses to be better than some of the most fun fights in HK. Note: Still haven't finished Ori 2, I'm in the home stretch after collecting all the wisps, if their is some crazy final fight against Shriek that pulls out all the stops with fun boss mechanics than note I'm not factoring that into this opinion. Note 2: I think the charm system eeks Hollow Knight into having more combat options than Ori 2, Ori might have more abilities but unlike in Ori 2 where only a few shards I can think of change up how you approach combat encounter there are A LOT of combat modifying charms in Hollow Knight most of which change things up in a huge way, forcing you to play completely differently. Like yea being able to grapple enemies is cool but in HK I can turn my horizontal ranged projectile into a shotgun blast of writhing worms, or turn healing into an effect way to clear enemies without having to directly engage them with spore shroom.

[@fiso64]

@@danielschinke6992 We might have different definitions of a metroidvania, because I certainly think nonlinearity makes more of a metroidvania than good bossfights (which I think HK does better), movement and level design. The features you've mentioned are just general factors of a good game. Hell, you could apply them to some racing games. I think it's less about them and more about exploration and progression in a game.

[@DoomRater]

A Metroidvania that came out before the term was created was Blaster Master. Edit: Guess what Blaster Master's first TWO upgrades are? You can kill an angry wall, and you can then break weaker blocks.

[@shadowcloud1994]

So the tl:dr would be: It's not about gaining the abilities to traverse through different points in the game, but rather about changing the experience in the places you have already traversed. Aka. redefining the levels themselves through use of abilities, enemies, playstyle or a change of geometry. I think that is a great argument. Part of what is interesting in dark souls for example is playing through areas you have gone through again. This may not seem like a metroidvania but the experience is actually quite similar. The reason for that is that the way you interact with them the second time around tends to be fundamentally different than the first time around. Not because of difference in abilities (though you do have better stats) but rather because you have gotten better and your playstyle will reflect that. On the same note it's also interesting to do a second playthrough and visit areas long before you are supposed to. It's a completely different and rewarding experience. And thank god I watched the video to the end before commenting. I was gonna make the exact argument that games that broaden the metroidvania genre exist, but we simply don't call them as such (and some are actually fairly known as metroidvanias like prey).

[@subprogram32]

Yeah, and the changing experience definition generally makes for much more interesting games than just strictly following the ability formula for sure.

[@williamsmith6921]

the idea that minecraft is an old game really took me back for a second, but the first iteration of the game came out in 2009, and that is really old, especially if you think about what other games came out around 2009. this isn't even close to the topic of the video but still

[@Zekiraeth]

Most Zelda games are metroidvanias. Prove me wrong.

[@leo-oh1bc]

They often feels like Metroid-vania but are too much Linear to proprely fit the definition imho

[@danielschinke6992]

Also, the biggest influences in most metroidvanias, is more often than not, zelda. HK, Ori, DS (kinda of not metroidvania but similar) and the bird one that i can never remeber the name. Actually, HK wasnt a metroidvania in the begining, it was a zelda2-like.

[@Zekiraeth]

@@leo-oh1bc Personally, I don't think linearity is very relevant in determining whether or not a game is a Metroidvania.

[@Tobascodagama]

More like Metreldas, am I right?

[@DrTheRich]

@@Zekiraeth well if recontextualizing familiar areas is a part of metroidvanias than a super linear game cannot be one because you won't revisit old areas to reconextualize.

[@marmaje69]

#i guess waiting for hollow knight silksong would do it. Basically same as hollow knight but i Heard hornet will be able to do side quest to earn currency... that is something new to metroidvanias thats for sure. Also hornet is not the same as the knight... she’s quiet the oposite The knight: spell caster Hornet: equiped with gadets The knight: heals slowly Hornet: heals instantly (maybe) The knight: cannot talk or make any sound when walking or fighting Hornet: is NOT void, she does talk The knight: *marko* Hornet: *polo*

[@jearn11]

I wish you would define "Metroidvania," because I think you're using a different definition than myself and most other people. For me, a Metroidvania requires unlockable abilities to progress and backtrack, whereas it seems you are saying 'resituating the mood/context of the environment."

[@itsaUSBline]

He's just saying that that resituating of the mood/context of the environment is what made the unlockable abilities and progression in Super Metroid work so well in the first place. It's not one of the other; it's both.

[@Daniel-yy3ty]

I think that was the point, the mechanics on themselves are dead and sterile, just tools... If you want to have a game that feels the same, you need some of those feels after all, and thinking you can milk them from the mechanics is wrong

[@jearn11]

@@Daniel-yy3ty hmm, if that's the case I'd say that's a bad way of taxonomizing genres. Most genres aren't decided but a mood, not even Horror. That's true for video games just as much as it is for literature, movies, and music. There's plenty of sad songs in all genres, but choice of instrument and lyrical formula decide the difference between rock and jazz.

[@SuperSecretAgentNein]

I think one small detail that will explain the mystery of why these are called Metroidvanias is that post super Metroid no one was really working in this genre til Symphony of The Night released, and even post-Symphony there was a good while where the only Metroid-likes had the name Castlevania. I think the term was originally created to distinguish the Metroid inspired Castlevania games (iga-vanias) from the traditional linear Castlevanias, but it just stuck for the entire genre. Which I think is pretty fair considering how long Castlevania carried the genre torch.

[@KittyLitterYT]

Mega man ZX is a game that exists. It's a metroidvania with limited lives. I wish death on all humanity now.

[@bestmimic]

ZX is fucking tight

[@aguspuig6615]

rainworld is one of those ''not officially metroidvania but has the spirit'' and it is GREAT

[@MidnightSt]

0:25 but they ARE informed by some particular mechanics: a non-linear (you could even call it "open") world where progression to new areas is gated by the player character getting new abilities and tools. that's a mechanics description. very vague one, but it still is, and as far as I understand, it's the main characteristic of metroidvanias. 13:45 that, in my opinion, is not a metroidvania. if a game is gated by player's knowledge of the systems and how they fit together, that's... i'm not sure what the name for that would be, but not metroidvania. The only example I can think of personally is Outer Wilds, where the only gating mechanism is exactly that - player's knowledge of the systems, world, and how they fit together, while all the tools are available to the player from very start. In my opinion, that is almost an antithesis of metroidvania, and... oh, I just realized, that's a soulslike. Metroidvania - you're gated by player character abilities. Soulslike - you're gated by player knowledge of the world and systems.

[@fy8798]

I'd say not only is that a metroidvania, it's better at being one than cookie cutter ones. Soulslikes are also all heavily gated. Even the original Dark Souls had many keys, and locked special doors. You had multiple routes you could take, but in the end you were definitely gated. No amount of player skill can get you to Gwyn right away unless you abuse bugs.

[@MidnightSt]

@@fy8798 how i draw the axis is: character abilitiesplayer knowledge. in metroidvania, if you're missing an item/ability, no amount on knowledge of how it works and what you can do with it will help you progress, because you're missing it. in soulslike, if you have enough knowledge about the world, you don't need an ability to progress. of course, no game is purely one or the other, but what is the prevailing approach defines the "genre". to get to gwyn, you need to defeat certain bosses, but to defeat them, and to get to them, you don't need any item, only player knowledge (and skill). can you say the same about metroid? if i replayed it, can i get to the end without getting any items that allow me to progress to new areas, if i have all the knowledge about the world? again, it's never absolute, always a spectrum, but i think my point is clear

[@TheJP100]

Nice video! I certainly did not expect to get to know 2 more great examples of game design in a single video(supraland & 1-1challenge), but here we go! Please stay at home so you can keep making videos :D

[@seantheimp]

"There hasn't been a good Metroid game in years." What about AM2R and Metroid: Samus Returns...wait...2017... That was 3 years ago. You win this round, Mr. Millard...

[@Seergun]

They were that long ago?!?! Fuck, didn't realize...

[@lewatoaofair2522]

Someone: AM2R Everyone: THIS. IS. AMAZING!!!!! Nintendo: What’s this “fan-made” crap?

[@VideoGameAnimationStudy]

@@lewatoaofair2522 Nintendo probably didn't want it up because of Samus Returns. Nintendo are just doing what's legal, they don't want to open the floodgates of fan games based on their properties.

[@wariodude128]

Samus Returns technically doesn't count since it's a remake of Metroid II.

[@thajocoth]

I think non-linearity is also core to the genre. In Super Metroid, for example, the game's design gives you a certain suggested flow to start you off, but a veteran player can see how to get upgrades that this designed flow doesn't bring you to until later. Doing so allows the game to play differently on a second playthrough. Your increased player knowledge from your first playthrough is enough to change your second playthrough, adding a bonus layer of replayability to the game. Toki Tori 2 has this quite strongly, as the various abilities are gated only by the player's knowledge of them..Far too many games that claim the genre don't have this core fundamental. Also, I'd say that the only reason the original Zelda and A Link to the Past are not considered Metroidvanias are because of their top-down perspective. ALttP even has plenty of that world-changing you were talking about. Hyrule Castle's purpose changes so many times as you play through that game, for example. Again, it has very lock-and-key abilities, but most of them have other uses as well, and in both games you can play through in a wide variety of macguffin-collecting orders. Link's Awakening, however, uses a lot of story gates instead of ability gates, and forces you into playing through in one pre-determined order, so while you are gaining abilities, and some areas of Koholint do wind up changing in meaning for the player as they go on, it's really too linear for the player to feel like they have any real freedom of control over what they're doing, so I wouldn't classify it as similar enough. I use the terms "Metroidvania" and "Metroidvania-like" to refer to games with the right game mechanics, but with and without that feeling of freedom as you progress, feeling like abilities really open the world for you, or are mostly just gates to the next marker on the "open" map. When I played Ori and the Blind Forest, I never felt free to explore. There was backtracking for some powerups, but it was just that. "Oh, this is a gate that requires an ability I don't have yet. I will come back when I can open this kind of gate" -> *get ability* -> "Okay, returning to that gate now to get that powerup". That's not non-linear design. That's padded design. You've found this, but have to backtrack to it later. Simply crossing through an older area is technically backtracking, but lacks the open freedom of a more open world design. That said, Breath of the Wild goes slightly too far in the other direction... Everything opens up completely, instead of having any areas that need something a bit more. If there's no gating at all, it's harder to feel like you're gaining more freedom as you play. A gate doesn't need to only have one possible key. It's great when areas have multiple ways to cross, but each are abilities you could find, meaning that it doesn't matter which abilities you've found, some new directions will become available, granting you that freedom as you play without funneling you too much. A reverse-funnel is ideal. Start off with something a little linear, so the player can get their bearings, then slowly open up more paths that the player can choose between... And it's okay to require as many of them as you want to access the final area, but two different playthroughs can result in vastly different playstyles and feel totally different. In their first playthrough, the player gets the abilities A, B, C, D, E, F, G, while in another he/she gets them A, C, D, G, B, F, E, so the game feels different, granting a new experience. Hollow Knight does this perfectly, and I highly suspect that it will become the next standard that inspires another wave of Metroidvanias. If you follow the "main path" you have several options once you reach the city... But if you've played through before (or stumbled into other things early), you can use the lamp to get the dream nail before the dash, you can use the lamp and mantis claw to get to the crystal heart without the desolate dive, you can get stuck in Deepnest with a weak nail, low health, and no map, forced to get super good at the game as you frustratingly work to claw your way back out, either just managing to escape upwards and out, or by getting the tram pass, which then gives you easy access to all of the other endgame areas... (Getting stuck in Deepnest early isn't perfect game design, but it still fits the genre well, at least, and makes for a VERY different playthrough, and, while frustrating, can bring a big feeling of accomplishment when you finally exit.)

[@kirikuri9180]

finally, someone explain true meaning of metroidvania i agree with u 100%, it's all about explore n non-linearity, there a bunch game fake metroidvania was claimed metroidvania and yet still overhyped..

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Super metroid doesn't intentionnally allow you that much freedom. It allows you to play with the order of items in Norfair, but until you get the super missile and after you enter the wrecked ship there is very little freedom(you can take screw attack, plasma beam and spring ball, in any order, but none of these items are that important). Suitless maridia isn't suppose to be possible, space jump less lower norfair was also not intented. The wrecked ship at least requires the speed booster, so you are meant to do the kraid-phantoon-dragyon-ridley order each playthrought.

[@thajocoth]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 Not having a lot of intended openness isn't the same as having none. Some of the main upgrades can be gotten in whichever order by design. As long as even two main upgrades do so, it counts. Barely counts = still counts. (It's ideal when a game is about halfway between perfectly linear and having everything in any order, but no game is perfect.)

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@thajocoth *by design*, you say. That's the thing:by design, none of this doing the bosses out of order is suppose to be possible.

[@thajocoth]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 You listed several examples of things that are intentionally in whichever order in your explanation. Yes, more things have been discovered to be possible than in the original design, but that doesn't mean the designed ones become invalid. Screw attack and spring ball, for example. Both of these are major movement abilities.

[@Netro1992]

AM2R was great, though.

[@matteste]

Glad there are those here that remember it.

[@daniellemurnett2534]

I think my favorite metroidvania is underrated basically unkown indie darling Indivisible. It deals with very different themes and has a very different aeshtetic than most others in the genre. It's about community, growth of the self, and responsibility. It's combat is a weird mesh of fighting games, FF-style semi-active RPGs, and whatever the hell you'd describe the rest of it as. But it's exploration and movement really sticks out to me, it's really fun, and I love the way the further you go the more effortlessly you glide through areas you've been in before. Everything you unlock (which usually ties in with the themes of growth or community as well) feels useful and fun! Well besides the garbage lance toss ability and its upgrade but whatever.

[@codeyfox622]

Ori 1 is so fondly remembered for the way it made you feel, especially the scenes you mentioned. The platforming was also a ton of fun at the end, and the beginning isn't BAD, so it doesn't stick out once you've finished. Therefore people remember it as being overall better than it actually was. The second one definitely lives up to being just an amazing game I think.

[@ace-catel]

I do like that you're tapping into the way you interact with the world of Metroidvania. It helps the world feel real and natural in its own way. It's definitely true that some of the best parts of this genre stems from what abilities you get and how they interact in exploration and combat among other activities like puzzle solving or such. Though I kind of felt that this video was neglecting the mechanics the player is given to increase other aspects of the game that's not just exploration and combat. Quacamelee for example, has a tone of that's silly and more mechanically designed than narrative from how I see it. The Choozoo statue, the random blocks that can only be broken with certain abilities, the characters and such don't seem to be trying in a sense of a story, and maybe trying to simplify the world for the sake of the challenge of the game. The exploration, the combat, and the gauntlets that have you perform a run with jumps, uppercuts, dives, and double jumps evolve your simple jumping to be able to get through some hard to reach areas as well as a couple of blocks. Guacamelee isn't as fleshed out as Hollow Knight which has different ways to interact with the world, the order of the abilities you get, and the foreknowledge you can use to begin your exploration differently. They have different experiences, and I feel that while it can't necessarily capture the same feeling as Metroid or Castlevania, games that borrow the mechanics and level/world building of Metroidvania can still provide different and fun experiences for multiple audiences. I do like your video, it's just that it seems to appeal more to one perspective of how you explore the world by the different ways you interact with it. And I do like being able to use new tools to solve more than one problem, makes me feel equipped for multiple situations, like Batman. But I also like a refined experience in either speeding through old areas with new abilities or destroying enemies without getting hit (or hit as much) with new and powerful abilities. I suppose that may be more on the Castlevania side where you can explore and triumph over old foes and difficult areas with a stat boosts or new tools. It's probably because there's still more to uncover from Metroidvanias and how they can appeal to different people, such as the sense of discovering something new and fascinating, a difficult experience to craft as trends can end up spoiling the whole venture as you explained in the video. But I do like many aspects of Metroidvania, in terms of world building, exploration, combat, and even some gauntlets. Sorry for the long comment, I just really liked your video and had a lot of thoughts about it.

[@kitthekat6844]

No reference to Dandara? I love this one so much!

[@sealdrive9117]

I like to think of Metroidvanias as Games in which the item is the solution to multiple problems, but that it isn't obvious as to which ones it solves. For example (Spoiler Warning for Metroid Prime 3) One example is the Ice Missiles from Metroid Prime 3 (Which appear in earlier games earlier but only as a weapon and a key to doors) is used to not only open doors, but it is a powerful weapon, and is used to solve puzzles and create platforms on in certain environments

[@caturiges]

Excellent video! I love metroidvanias, it's the genre that I most played, along with RPGs. I just want to say that Samus Returns is a great game, even if a tad linear. You should give it a try. Peace!

[@GustyforEminem]

Your understanding of philosophical game design is so good, you manage to capture exactly what makes a game fun in it's essence, what is the appeal of the said genre and how some that try to emulate fall short while giving a proper explanation. Thank you very much, it was a joy to watch!

[@purplefanta7142]

Hey man, I love your content. I teach myself alot about game design with your videos and draw alot of ideas when you go over topics relating to what I'm building. Love your stuff keep it up!

[@geddyflea6645]

I always thought the term started with Symphony of the Night when castlevania was not a straight up side scrolling game like the previous games (besides Simon’s Quest) and was more like Metroid with item upgrades for unlocking different parts of the castle.

[@avimoses5956]

Another person who didn't love ori 1! My entire time playing it, I just felt like it should have been a platformer with defined levels, and that the world simply hindered the good parts of the game. Especially since backtracking is not enjoyable, since most places are designed to be done in one direction. Glad to hear that the sequel did better though, I might check it out.

[@rainhoo4096]

I do love Ori 1 but this video echos my thoughts on it exactly. I spent a ton of my time like "this isn't that good, I don't get it" and then I got the bash and was like "oh...probably should have lead with this."

[@graphite7898]

I fully agree, I found Ori 1 fine, it had it's fun moments (all of the platforming moments ) and had some creative gimmicks and platforming sections. However, the game's exploration sucked bullocks, it isn't fun to go back to find things (even with the teleporters) and it was tedious to find ways around locks when I just wanted to platform. Ori 2 however is ine of the best games I have ever played, the world is ridiculously fun to explore, combat is fast and fun, pl as platforming is the best I have ever seen in a video game, and overall the worldbuilding and story is magnificent; loved it so much I beat it three times in the first few days.

[@twinguy9633]

@@graphite7898 I would recommended you Hollow knight, the exploring is awesome, the whole game is an experience

[@graphite7898]

@@twinguy9633 Bruh, don't even mention that game, I already beat it 12 times and played it back when it came out in 2016, I've played it, trust me.

[@MrPedrogiorgi]

Exactly. The explorarion in the game felt like an afterthought, with the whole game feeling lika a linear set of level rather than an open world that you gradually open up

[@rosemarydwitasari4693]

My favourite metroidvania games 1. Castlevania SOTN 2. Super Metroid 3. Momodora: Reverie Under Moonlight 4. SMT Synchronity Prologue 5. The Mummy Demastered 6. Hollow Knight 7. Shovel Knight 8. Axiom Verge 9. Dandara 10. Blasphemous 11. Bloodstained: Curse of The Moon 12. Dead Cells 13. Castlevania Aria of Sorrow 14. Bloodstained: Ritual of The Night 15. Castlevania Portrait of Ruin 16. Swordigo 17. Grimvalor 18. Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow 19. Metroid Zero Mission 20. AM2R 21. Castlevania Lecarde Chronicles 2 22. Timespinner 23. Ori And The Blind Forest 24. Castlevania Harmony of Dissonance 25. Ori And The Will O' Wisp 26. Odallus The Dark Call 27. Castlevania Order of Ecclesia

[@TheDopoqob]

I'm definitely checking out Supraland because of this video!

[@missitheachievementhuntres560]

it is a fun and beautiful game :D

[@twinguy9633]

It gets really quickly repetitive

[@fengardice]

Metroidvania is a genre of ability-based exploration. The player's relationship to the world can be summarized in five basic moods: 1. “I shouldn't be here yet, but i should definitely come back later” (with the basic expectation that you will know when “later” comes) 2. “Aha! I can use this new thing to go back and dig in further” (the fulfillment of said expectation) 3. “Wait a minute, i can also use this to do this thing i had missed the first time” (sometimes you realize that you've found a lock only when you later find the key) 4. “THERE'S NO WAY FORWARD WHERE THE HECK DO I GO” 5. “THERE'S SO MANY WAYS FORWARD WHERE THE HECK DO I GO” Super Metroid is a master class in game design because of how it uses these five moods to pace the game. In the first area alone you learn about them: color-coded doors, narrow tunnels, and bombable blocks are mood 1, and finding their respective keys is mood 2. You may then get caught in mood 4 until you find the way forward (because you randomly decide to bomb the correct wall or because you find the map and take the hint). If you'd bothered to go right from the landing site, finding the bombs may trigger mood 3, which if you act on it will trigger mood 1 again as you realize that wall is a different type of block. Then you proceed to the second area and it's mood 5 with doors upon doors lining the shafts. The most brilliant use of these moods happens when you find the way back after being trapped for hours in Lower Brinstar/Norfair. Despite the amount of new tools triggering mood 2, you can't act on any of it since you're trapped. Then in one shot you go from mood 4 to mood 5 when you make it back. The game rewards you with plenty of powerups and just as many new locked paths (mood 1 again) if you bother to backtrack and explore it all. Eventually you're back in mood 4 until you recall the Power Bomb blocks you found along the way to the Ice Beam and proceed toward the next upgrade, the Grapple Beam. Innovating on the metroidvania genre is not about designing new powerups (not for the sake of being gimmicky, in any case). It's about designing new permutations of the moods above and playing around with them, about alternating frustration and reward, fulfilling as well as subverting expectations.

[@Zestyzel]

This video hits on a lot of stuff I've been thinking for a while. I guess I can scrap my own script for a video on this topic now, lol. The Metroidvania genre has always been kind of weird to me. Games that identify as Metroidvanias often are compared to and judged by their similarity to Super Metroid, and it makes for a very narrow and hyper focused genre. It's to the point now where referring to something like Toki Tori as a Metroidvania calls for some debate, despite its structural similarities with the design of Super Metroid. When "like Metroid or Castlevania" isn't enough to call something a Metroidvania, it has arguably become too focused to be called a genre. This still echoed many of the points you made in the video, but it's all I really have left to add.

[@Lugbzurg]

Well, I guess there's also Banjo-Tooie and Batman: Arkham Asylum; Collect-O-Thon and Stealth "Metrovania" games about eight years apart. On another note, it comes to mind that Doom Eternal takes this philosophy, and applies it to combat, rather than traversal. The frag grenade alone, the simple mechanic of launching a grenade, somehow became the ability that took me about the longest to really get the hang of. You can use it to simply deal explosive damage upon any enemies nearby, you can use it to "falter" an enemy to entirely cancel its movement and attacks for a couple seconds to make them vulnerable, you can use it to make a cacodemon swallow it to instantly "stagger" it to make it helpless in a state that allows you to extract health from it, and you can set a ton of small and weak enemies like zombies or imps on fire so you can throw a grenade down and cause them to drop a surplus of armor for you exceptionally faster than if you just tried to shoot them. I do really wish they'd bring back the labyrinthine level design again. The level design now is so bland and samey.

[@VideoGameAnimationStudy]

The next time someone says _"Super Metroid is overrated",_ just remind them that it inspired a whole generation of game designers.

[@DisKorruptd]

as someone whose first Metroidvania game was SOTN and only played Super Metroid in 2016, Super Metroid sucks, it hid plot progression behind poorly marked secret walls, which isnt ok

[@randomguy6679]

DisKorruptd guess you didn’t play the game then. It’s not like Symphony of the Night is much better in that regard. Want a decent ending? Better find all the secret walls and forgettable hidden bosses!

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@DisKorruptd Symphony of the night did that too... That's just an old game thing I guess. Well I mean, mostly*looks at godhome entrance in Hollow Knight*.

[@DisKorruptd]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 I dont remember having any unmarked secret walls that led to anything that could be considered plot progression toward at least AN ending cdn.wikimg.net/en/strategywiki/images/d/df/Super_Metroid_Walkthrough_Brinstar_Elevator_Room_Kraid.png I'd like to remind you that the game expects you to blow this wall up just to continue playing the game at all, nothing to do with what ending you get, just a matter of completing the game at all, now tell me, what about this wall suggests that you need to fire a rocket at it?

[@DisKorruptd]

@@randomguy6679 see above, Symphony of the Night gave you at least AN ending without finding secret walls, Super Metroid hid the ability to progress through the plot behind hidden walls, not just secret bosses to get a "good" ending, but an ending period

[@tmsmeister7603]

I think that the conflict with looking at other games for inspiration is quite similar to creating a sequel, that being: how do I make a good follow up while not straight up coping what the successes of the first game.

[@jakebaigent7582]

What about Pokemon (the originals)? HM's act as keys allowing the player to explore more of the world, but with an extra use in battle. They're non-linear and don't tell you where to go. And you could even argue that the Pokemon themselves are keys for locks with the way the type system works and the fact that each gym focuses on a specific type. That's a metroidvania with alot of innovation.

[@fengardice]

Even if Pokémon Red and Blue were an attempt at a top-down metroidvania (which they fortunately aren't), they do a terrible job at it. They do very little to reward skill-based exploration, rely too much on plot-based locks and fetch quest locks, and their map progression is extremely linear with little meaningful backtracking required for progress. Not to mention the skills themselves are a pain to use (surfing means random encounters, and Strength is for solving tedious puzzles). I've heard that Monster Sanctuary is what would result if Pokémon took the job of being a metroidvania seriously, but i haven't played that game yet.

[@chloewebb5526]

I accidently found Yoku Island Express on GamePass and absolutely FELL IN LOVE WITH IT

[@rory_person_being]

So is Stardew Valley still a metroidvania according to you?

[@christopherg2347]

As for a obvious Metroidvania, there is Shantae - Half Genie Hero: store.steampowered.com/app/253840/Shantae_HalfGenie_Hero/ The world is entirely locked behind the transformation dances, with the limited ammo things only being usefull for combat An odd case that technically fits the description: Elder Scrolls Online. In most MMO's the world never changes with quest progress. You defeated the evil overlord of the region, but his minims for the early quests still spawn. In ESO, you all play in the same scenery. But if this is a safe hub or a combat, is defined where on the quests you are. Not as sweeping as changes as the examples, but it is a noticeable example none the less.

[@GibusWearingMann]

I wonder if Doom's children are more diverse than Metroid's or Rogue's because their name was originally "doom *clone* " as opposed to "metroidvania" or "roguelike"

[@todesziege]

Well, for the first couple of years following Doom's release, most first person shooters really *were* literal Doom clones - both when it came to the technical side and the gameplay side (with the odd Wolfenstein 3D clone coming late to the party). It wasn't until 95-96, with games such as Dark Forces and Duke Nukem 3D that the genre began to break free of that mold.

[@GibusWearingMann]

@@todesziege Yeah. Part of me is thinking that maybe the push to be more diverse was because the name had a more derogatory tone to it, like "being like Rogue is fine, since Rogue is good, but being a clone of Doom is not fine, since that's derivative and unoriginal"

[@todesziege]

@@GibusWearingMann I think the difference is that "first-person shooter" (and the gameplay it describes) is a very broad "supergenre", while Roguelikes and Metroidvanias are not. Rogue-likes were a very specific niche sub-genre from the start. It always existed in a pre-existing context of dungeon crawlers, action RPGs, adventures and the likes. Likewise Metroidvania was also from the start a very specific thing, a sub-sub-genre in a pre-existing ecosystem of other genres. With Doom clones on the other hand, it wasn't so much that the name was changed as that the broader first-person action genre evolved and basic Doom-clones pretty much stopped being made (living on a bit longer on consoles and then handhelds).

[@GibusWearingMann]

@@todesziege Fair point.

[@Uratoh42]

Have you ever seen Aeternoblade? It was on 3DS and Switch later, it does a lot of recontextualizing around your (primarily time manipulation) powerups, especially when the game transforms completely from a linear platformer into a full on metroidvania once you collect a specific item before beating it. And it all relates to the plot, which even ties together multiple playthroughs due to the time manipulation themes. Yes, the first powerup you get is tied to a meter, but it's not really going to be helping you out in combat at the very least.

[@nthSonata]

I'm a huge Metroid fan, but have honestly grown pretty tired of the cookie-cutter "Indie Metroidvania" style for a lot of the reasons you listed. I'm kinda surprised you didn't bring up Axiom Verge, with how it deliberately subverts expectations of "oh this is how I'm gonna solve this puzzle" if you're familiar with Metroid

[@SereKabii]

High ledge? Drone throw. Want faster movement speed? Just get upgraded drone throw + the final ability and teleport everywhere Blatantly walljumpable wall leading to goodies? GRAPPLE ACROSS THE CEILING CUS YOU AINT GETTING THAT. There are still quite a few generic powerups in there but for what felt like a game that leaned so heavily in metroid it had its share of unique and subversive that i loved

[@lewatoaofair2522]

As a Metroid fan myself, I agree that the genre has been over-saturated by the indie gaming scene. Regardless of how “faithful” each one is.

[@PyroFlareGaming]

@@lewatoaofair2522 facts right here

[@randomguy6679]

How do you feel about Hollow Knight?

[@federicobarreri7639]

So uuuuhhh, I'm not the only who's still waiting for Silksong, right? 3 years after this video?

[@TheVoltarus]

Probably the first video I mostly disagree with. When people talk about Metroidvanias they usually mean the progression of starting with barely any abilities, few paths to follow and such and slowly opening up the world while getting abilities as they progress. It might very well be the case that games like Metroid used these mechanics with another underlying, thematic reason. But that is not what people that look for a "Metroidvania" necessarily look for. Right now, when we see a game being described as a Metroidvania we know exactly what we can expect - the typical key/lock aspect which often involves getting new abilities that aren't just for opening areas. Often with secrets, backtracking and such, sometimes also mechanics we only understand later on but have been there the whole time. What you described feels more like something that can be added to a Metroidvania, but not what a Metroidvania is.

[@paulolacdo-o7614]

4:11 I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who threw a grapple seed at a grapple point in Journey to the Savage Planet

[@iceTime999]

I generally can't agree with most of the video. It's of course your take on the genre and there's nothing wrong with this but "genre" is a blurry concept. For me a Metroidvania is not defined by the narrative you're describing at all. It could lack all of of this for me. I play a Metroidvania for the gameplay loop and the similarities in this gameplay loops of those games is what defines the genre for me. Again nothing wrong with your interpretation but we should never forget that genres are blurry and one's definition is not valid for everyone. In my book Hollow Knight is by far the best Metroidvania out there cause it's not only open but it has many ways to reach the same or equivalent goals, it has a quick and fun battle / platforming gameplay and orientation is sooo fun with the map system and map structure (the Vengeful Spirit is much more than a copy of the missiles ;) ). Yes I think Hollow Knight is far better than any Metroid or Castlevania.

[@fiso64]

I agree. Revolutionary games are rarely the best in their genre.

[@Alianger]

I came into this with the same mindset but is there a MV that doesn't produce that sort of narrative via its gameplay loop anyway? Not all come "full circle" by having the climax near the beginning but in other aspects. It did seem like he hadn't played HK much since he didn't mention the huge amount of interconnectivity in it compared to most earlier MVs.

[@iceTime999]

@@Alianger For me the Metroidvanias share the theme of mystery and understanding the world. I like the story and lore of Hollow Knight but I don't think it resembles the narrative of Metroid or Castlevania very much. I would call Salt and Sanctuary a Metroidvania as well. Storywise very similar for me. I think it's what you make of the story since most Metroidvanias rely on environmental storytelling which is open to interpretation. I never interpretated these games like Adam did.

[@Alianger]

@@iceTime999 sure, i mean in the gameplay-driven sense which ties into environmental storytelling. Structurally rather than the content of the story/world

[@iceTime999]

@Minh Nguyễn That's exactly what I meant. This video is completely focused on how Metroidvania should be categorized by emotions and a special kind of narrative. I agree with you that Super Metroid doesn't have much narrative. Every bit of story is shown in this video and while it's mostly environmental narrative I don't think it's similar to Hollow Knight and I don't think narrative / emotions or themes are in any way important for the genre.