Why Don't Mystery Games Need Mechanics?

[@ArchitectofGames]

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the fact that people willingly give me money for this garbage - and so can you!:www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames The real crime we need a super-sleuth to solve is the puzzling mystery of why twitter dot com continues to exist: twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot

[@atom5469]

Hey I just wanted to look up your patreon but couldn't find it. Because I was looking at the description, before thinking about checking the comments. Have you considered putting the link in the description or in that info thing one can put in the video? I mean most people who actually want to donate will find your comment or just look up your name on patreon. But it might give you that one extra patron who wasn't entirely convinced from the get go. Edit: Thanks for the great video^^and the shout out to Tom O'Regan. I'm gonna see what he is all about Edit 2: Uhm apparently I was blind because your patreon link is in the description. Sorry about that

[@teaser6089]

Smart try, however Mr Holmes, you have forgotten the fact you don't work for money :P

[@chickensangwich97]

In fairness to Dahlia Hawthorne, I don't think the writers ever intended her villainy to be a twist. The whole dynamic of that first case is that Mia (the player character) is the only person in the courtroom who sees that she's a villain because...well, Mia is a woman. Everyone else in the courtroom is a dude and is instantly seduced by Dahlia, so Mia has to push past not just Dahlia's lies and misdirections, but her charms as well. Dahlia is a femme fatale, as classic a mystery/noire trope as you can get. This is also a nice way of putting male players (like myself) into a different person's shoes, at least in a very minor way. The first cases of the first two Phoenix Wright games make even less effort to hide who the bad guy is...they straight-up show you the killer's face in a cutscene before the gameplay even starts. The series creator has even said that he wanted the first case in the first game to not be about the player trying to guess who did it, but rather about the player trying to figure out *how* they did it, and how to prove that in court. Removing the whodunnit element is a way of focusing new players on the core loop of the gameplay, namely, noticing and proving contradictions. So while I completely agree that Dahlia being a villain is not surprising, I don't think it was ever intended that way either. Anyways, quick point I wanted to make that's unrelated to the main points of this excellent, thoughtful video.

[@MEW-hn2dn]

Thisss. All three of the first cases only have one other witness so that it's even MORE obvious who the killer is. For a good twist first case look at Apollo Justice, which... well it isn't my favorite first case in the series in large part BECAUSE it tries to pull a weird twist that ties in with a less satisfying final case, but the twist itself is done perfectly, albeit it's... also got a bit of moon logic for any first time player to have to remember the specific piece of information that's needed there.

[@garr_inc]

This. I came to see this. Also, Mia knows about Dahlia's true nature from her other case, which makes you understand her behaviour even more after you finish the case 3-4.

[@Aceedius]

Adding to this and Garr_Inc's point, there's a conversation right at the start about Mia practically harassing Grossberg to give her the case, hinting at her personal stakes. When Dahlia takes the stand Mia tenses up and their courtroom history is revealed, filling in some of those blanks. And at that point you also know from Phoenix's demeanor that she's emotionally manipulative, so for me the flower act came across as dissonant and unnerving. Less "is this demeanor a mask?" and more "Whatever's behind that mask, it's sure to be terrifying". My personal read is that cases 1 and 4 were written to build dread by mirroring each other in the player's knowledge versus Mia's. In case 1 you know something's fishy but not the scope of it, while Mia's horribly aware what Dahlia is capable of. In case 4 those roles are reversed, and there's also this nagging thought at the back of your mind that surely this can't end in a not guilty verdict against a young Edgeworth. 's good horror!

[@gubx42]

It fits the premise of the game. Phoenix is a lawyer, not a detective, his job is to prove his client's innocence. Finding the true culprit is just a mean to an end.

[@gubx42]

It fits the premise of the game. Phoenix is a lawyer, not a detective, his job is to prove his client's innocence. Finding the true culprit is just a mean to an end.

[@PizzaMineKing]

There is a good old dnd rule to mystery plays: Three hints per place. One gets overlooked, one gets ignored, one is followed. Edit: Since people are screenshotting this 3 years later, I'd like to elaborate: Let's say you have a room with a pool of blood on the floor. The corpse has been stuffed into a closet with the murder weapon, remains of a torn up letter are in the fireplace and there are footsteps leading to the window. These are 3 clues. Now, some groups might not even check the closet - that clue is missed. The same group might call the paper in the fireplace "just part of the ambience" and discover, but ignore it. They will follow the footsteps. Another group might think "there is no way it's THAT obvious" at the footsteps and search for less obvious clues. Those might miss the fireplace but check the closet and think "jackpot!". However, with 3 clues you as the DM can afford the players to not see one clue and ignore another - no matter which one is the one actually pursued. It is game masters preference weather all 3 clues lead to the same general area or 3 different areas to continue the plot in - with 3 new clues each. However, avoid backcycling without changing anything - the pursued clue is no longer there, so they'll miss and ignore what they previously missed and ignored.

[@aurin_komak]

I'll screenshot this, very useful

[@rushilsojitra]

@@aurin_komak I took a screenshot of the comment and then read this comment 😂

[@davidrenteriag]

I took a screenshot and then look at the comment too

[@aurin_komak]

Funny thing, this rule of thumb is so memorable that I haven't even needed the screenshot. Whenever I think of mystery game design, this comment is the first thing that comes to mind.

[@Shifae_]

You did forget about the times where the characters sees something that has absolutely nothing to do with the thing and and follow that

[@eudgenius46]

Dahlia was never supposed to be a twist villain. The real mystery of Trials & Tribulations is how deep the rabbit hole goes, because the mystery of the first case is just the tip of the iceberg.

[@thesweetembraceofnonexiste3740]

Heaven's Vault sounds incredibly interesting and I'm pretty sure you've mentioned it multiple times; I definitely want to play it sometime.

[@Chessrook44]

I myself have played it and can confirm it is VERY interesting, especially the mechanic of figuring out the inscriptions, enough so that I get a little happy glee when I find a new inscription to figure out. It has its own flaws, but if you like adventures it may be worth a look.

[@subprogram32]

Same here!

[@LuminothLumi]

Very interesting indeed but the travel sections are boring. Too bad they can only be skipped in certain instances...

[@Beregorn88]

I did, and boy was I disappointed... It has a really interesting concept and a compelling mystery, but the game mechanics thwart your effort at every step. It seems that the developer went out of their way to prevent you to actually enjoy the game. Some "features" implemented in the game include, but are not limited to: - inability to fully investigate scenes, and arbitrarily being locked out of them if you misclick, for no reason whatsoever; - impossibility to fully question people: every step of a dialog contains 3 options and you can NEVER go back to investigate previous line of inquiry. Basically you can see only a single, specific branch of every dialog three in every game. - no save. Heavens forbid someone goes explore, investigate and question people in a game about an archaeologist investigating a mystery...

[@Gorfinhofin]

@@Beregorn88 I haven't played very much of it, but I also have complaints with the game. The literally constant prompts to talk to the robot are hard to ignore, and when you do talk to it you aren't allowed to interact with anything or even see what's interactable. So if you don't want to miss anything you just have to stand there and wait for the dialogue to finish. And then invariably ANOTHER prompt will pop up, and you can never be sure if the robot will have something important to say, so it becomes this constant dilemma. And I don't know if it was something wrong with my keybindings, but sometimes the player character would just interact with things or talk to people automatically when I walked up to them. It was a very jarring feeling when everything else was under my control. The game is also seriously lacking in the sound department. You get maybe some quiet ambient sound like wind or crickets and nothing else like 90% of the time. Very little music, no sounds for walking around, or interacting with stuff, or talking to people. I question their decision to have voice acting for the occasional narrated cutscene since the rest of the game is so silent. Also, related to your point about dialogue, there's this lady on the second planet that assumes you are your teacher, I forget her name, and asks if that's who you are. Now, a sensible, realistic conversation would proceed with something like "No I'm not, but I know her. Why are you looking for her?" Instead, your options are to lie and say you are her, tell a different lie that I don't remember, or the option that I picked, which is just to tell the truth that you aren't her, at which point the lady says "Oh okay," and walks away. Dialogue over. You can never talk to her again. GAH!!!

[@coentertainer]

Really appreciate your Spoiler warnings man. It's one of the things that really sets apart the higher caliber video essays on youtube.

[@pisoprano]

3 mystery game recommendations that are a bit older: Nancy Drew series. There are over 30 of these where you play as the famous amateur detective, exploring, interrogating suspects, and solving puzzles. There is a hint system for players who get stuck, but it mostly lets them explore and figure things out on their own. Myst series. These come from a time before internet walkthroughs were common, but they set the bar for having a logical world that you had to figure out on your own and can be difficult even for seasoned players. These are “mysteries” in the sense that you’re usually trying to figure out what happened and why, but they don’t really have many mystery tropes. Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective. Made by the same guys who did the Ace Attorney series, though it doesn’t segment the game into individual cases, but instead has a more cohesive overarching story (which you’re admittedly railroaded through, since it still uses chapters). Lots of clever gameplay mechanics and plot twists that are a lot of fun to discover and hold up well on replays.

[@abzu235]

Ghost Trick is one of the best DS games ever

[@tolbiny36]

Yay for Nancy Drew! If you love puzzles these games are great.

[@FrozenOver0]

Ghost Trick is a good game, with a good mystery plot, but I don't think of it as a good Mystery Game, per se. The actual gameplay elements are focused more on puzzles and Rube-Goldberging yourself around the world, while the cutscenes handle all the clues, etc. rather than trying to get the player to figure out what's going on at whatever pace they would normally approach it.

[@timon7651]

One very clever way of making mysteries, is to give the player many different ways of getting to the solution. That way you can make each way quite hard to solve and if the player doesn't get it he will still be able to solve it in a different way. The player doesn't know that there are many solutions and will feel very clever for solving what seems to be a very hard mystery.

[@_t03r]

At 1:45 I keep hearing "Sherlock Holmes and the eventual black pizza". As if Mr Holmes had a really bad oven.

[@appropinquo3236]

dang i hear it too

[@Euruzilys]

I can hear the music from Disco Elysium... *gets very excited*

[@taco1957]

me too!!!

[@JamesOfTheYear]

Return of the Obra Dinn is the best detective game

[@commenturthegreat2915]

It was for me until Outer Wilds showed up

[@vincer7824]

Something about the stippled style makes it very unpleasant for me to look at. Does seem like a great game though.

[@icymallard3]

I had a good time but so much of it felt like an invisible logic puzzle, and a hard one. Tough to finish solidly from my experience.

[@zyaicob]

I raise you Her Story

[@UltimateDragonDetective]

I really have to ask for help to do in order to solve the mystery.

[@mene1in]

I like mysteries, I'm even making my current game a mystery game. But my problem with Sherlock Holmes stories, is that you often cant figure out the solution until the end because a vital piece of information is kept from you until the accusation is made at the very end.

[@maddinar6727]

Outer Wilds is amazing. I love how from the start you have all the tools you need, however, you don't know how to use the yet and have to learn it first. It is so great! :D

[@JaneXemylixa]

- talks about collaboration - shows Miles Edgeworth Mmm-hmm.

[@arenkai]

The Secret World is often overlooked, but its investigation quests were the best parts of the game for me

[@leosabat4636]

totaly the illuminaty that controled the first town quest were so inmersive for the island and plot.

[@Evanz111]

I loved the concept of the MMO. Using the internet to solve quests in game just felt like a mechanic more games would have normally picked up and evolved on...

[@steven.2602]

Heres my thoughts, haven't finished the video, so i might repeat some things said in it. To me, a mystery game is just a puzzle game with a narrative behind it. I mean, they both overlap very often- both give you a set of obstacles you need to pass over, both give you a set of "tools", or gameplay mechanics for the player to use, both have an end goal, and both require you to use your general thinking skills along with your tools at hand to complete these sets of obstacles. So, when we're making a mystery game, just design it like a puzzle game. Portal wouldn't be fun if Chell made various comments like "If I Place a portal on the ground, and another up high, i can use my momentum to throw myself to unreachable places. this may be useful later.", just as Cole Phelps going "the company listed on this bloody pipe may be useful later.", instead, place a set of visual hints around the area that allow the player to connect the dots themselves.

[@davidnewhouse64]

This exactly, mystery and puzzle are very closly related. Perhaps the difference is that mysteries are puzzles in which puzzle pieces have been hidden in a world / narrative?

[@bugdracula1662]

puzzle games are more about thinking about the rules but mysteries are more about real-world logic

[@kittyshippercavegirl]

The best mystery game in existence is (for me at least) Umineko When They Cry. And it's a visual novel, with (for the most part, excluding a few puzzles and an extremely fun solving minigame in chapter 8) no mechanics other than reading and figuring it out. and it's amazing. (inb4 some person who's never read a visual novel says they aren't games)

[@toanoradian]

It's an incredible mystery story, but the game part is lacking. However, I don't know how to make it more 'gamey'. It's...perfect the way it is.

[@nyoukki]

That looks interesting

[@dlszach]

I won't argue that visual novels can be considered games, but it's a bit of a stretch to call Umineko a game...

[@felonyx5123]

@@dlszach Umineko (and Higurashi before it) repeatedly call themselves games in the text because the author is making the same point this video is making. A mystery story is itself inherently a game.

[@electricant55]

@@felonyx5123 This. They even talk about "difficulty" of each chapter despite there not being a mechanical failure state.

[@GerackSerack]

LA Noire, however, nails the aesthetic. And it's an aesthetc barely used in games. I loved it for that reason. The ending, though is rushed and contrived, but the experience as a whole is worth of being played. I think it's good to think about it as a hybrid between a game and a Visual Novel. It's more enjoyable that way.

[@ofgreyhairwaifu4089]

I dropped LA on the second or third case. I found glasses that belonged to a man who disappeared. They have clearly been broken in 2 and taped together in the middle. You can see the tape. When you question his wife she says that they are brand new. Doubting does nothing. That's where I understood that LA is not a detective game.

[@edmundcastle8201]

@@ofgreyhairwaifu4089 Did you beat that case though because the glasses come up.

[@vallraffs]

@@ofgreyhairwaifu4089 I mean, that's no surprise, it just sounds like you did it wrong. She was clearly lying. You don't get to the truth in that instance by saying "Doubt", you do it by calling her out and shoving the glasses right in her face. Of course, it's well known that the dialogue choices in LA Noire were labeled poorly, as a decision made by the publisher. But modern releases of the game have changed it back from Truth-Doubt-Lie to Good Cop-Bad Cop-Lie. So while the game as you played it had a flaw in communicating what the options meant to the player, using that situation as a justification for calling it not a detective game is unsustainable at the face of it, since the player is clearly the one at fault rather than the game.

[@SianaGearz]

It has a strong interactive movie feel. You can breeze right through it in one long exhilerating play session like a TV season binge. I like it for that.

[@AcencialAMV]

The most intense mystery experience I have EVER had is actually a visual novel. I am a huge book reader and have been playing games for more than 20 years now and I've never ran into something as good as Umineko When They Cry (if anyone wants to play it make sure you do so with a PS3 patch on PC). It's not only an amazing mystery, but a thesis on truth and basically a love letter to the mystery genre and people who want to put in the time to understand the characters and to make attempts at solving the mystery. What makes it so amazing is basically summed up by this quote from the writer himself - " I hoped for the fun in Umineko to lie in “thinking and troubling yourself, but reaching the answer through that”, I did not create something like a solution section in a riddle book, where you can look for the answers just by opening them. And I think even if I told the people who did not come through the “Who, how, and why”, they still would not understand. Someone who climbs to the top of the Everest by foot and somebody who just rode a helicopter to the top without breaking a sweat, you wouldn’t say they had the same feeling of satisfaction, would you? " Dare I say, it's the dark souls of mystery novels? I'll see myself out.

[@rainischalk-late3540]

FINALLY I SEE A COMMENT THAT TALKS ABOUT UMINEKO! I’m confident to say it’s one of the best mystery stories ever , like that entire novel was absolutely genius and it was so fun to basically theorizes as you go through each episode, and the novel doesn’t TELL you the answers but more of showing the answers in such a unique way I just, ugh I love umineko sm However they could cut down the metaphors and analogies so it would be less long but still 😂

[@aneonfoxtribute]

I feel your Dahlia example was not accurate. You didnt account for one simple thing. Dahlia isnt SUPPOSED to be hard to guess. She's the killer of a tutorial case in a series that takes a more Perry Mason like method of putting the focus less on who committed the crime and more on how you PROVE that they committed the crime, hence why it can get away with blatantly showing you the killer in the first few cases of certain games and why it's acceptable for characters like Furio Tigre to exist.

[@mr.cup6yearsago211]

aneonfoxtribute for real though, I noticed in the intro to Furio Tigre’s case that the killer looked like Phoenix, and I almost immediately connected that to Phoenix’s embarrassing defeat at the hands of Payne. Then Furio actually showed his face, and a piece of me died when I realized that I wasn’t clever for figuring that out, and it was intentionally obvious.

[@usernametaken4023]

Man I was hoping you'd talk about Danganronpa. I wanted to see your take on the game. But this video is great and very detailed.

[@EleetCanoe]

Judging by your profile picture, you’re a fan.

[@averagebot935]

KAMAKURA KAMAKURA YASS QUEEN

[@ricknaturalls2065]

@@averagebot935 Ok I need to find out where that's from. I have seen it as a comment in literally every Dangan video ever.

[@averagebot935]

@@ricknaturalls2065 its from the danganronpa 3 anime

[@ricknaturalls2065]

@@averagebot935 Makes sense. I have only played the first two games and haven't watched the Anime.

[@hgjfkd12345]

To be fair, the first cases of the ace attorney trilogy (and a fair amount of the rest) were intended to be easy solves to get the player used to the system and style, and for newcomers who hadn't played the others.

[@TomOReganYT]

holy shit, did not expect to hear my name at the end of this video! kinda freeking out over here. thank you so much, it really means a lot.

[@Victoriai-y2m]

Congrats, man! Hope ur day was good afterwards

[@oscblade1691]

The problem with this video is that all games require mechanics. I do agree that mystery games don't need things like analyzing gadgets that solve the mystery for you. But that does not mean this type of game does not need mechanics in the game. Mechanics are also the rules on how the game works, and are used to help the player play the game. So regardless of what game it is there will be at least some element of mechanics in the game. But yes I do agree that there needs to be less of those certain types of mechanics that make investigation easier and or eliminates the need to think to solve a problem. I felt this when I recently played the Arkham game. Using Batman's gadgets took away all the fun in solving mysteries or whatnot.

[@The-toast]

PW was never about who done it, but HOW! Everyone knows that smug old guy across the courtroom managing the case like a taskmaster and overruling the Judge did the crime, it's Just how did he manage it?

[@coyraig8332]

I just realized that his initials are both letters that do NOT sound like they should.

[@The-toast]

@@coyraig8332 ... should *what?*

[@coyraig8332]

@@The-toast The P doesn't sound like a P and the W is silent

[@The-toast]

@@coyraig8332 Well I mean no, the sound ph (puhuh) came from people underpronouncing the p, making it be fuhuh instead, then shortened to fuh, likely due to the letter F sharing that sound, and fuhuh being a similar sound to fuh. And as for wright, well it's not really a silent W, you can pronounce it as Wuhright it's Just that doing so has incredibly minor differences to Just saying right, so it seems silent.

[@coyraig8332]

@@The-toast Thanks for the history lesson, but you missed something very important: I was referring to modern English, not the method by which it got like that. How many people actually pronounce the "w" in "wr"?

[@noiJadisCailleach]

Hah! What timing. I'm coincidentally tasked to make a review for an adventure mystery game right now. My first assignment as a Game reviewer, too!

[@Evanz111]

Congratulations man! I’ll never forget my first commissioned review :) it’s a great feeling! I hope it went well!

[@maiiau]

I had no idea the Her Story people made a new game along similar lines, so watching this video was worth it just to learn this. But also the rest of it is really good! A fair play mystery is just so good done well, I'm glad to see someone make a video focusing on those in video games!

[@hippyjodorowsky8102]

Not kidding but everytime I hear that Outer Wilds music I get all melancholic, very powerful stuff

[@Beregorn88]

I was very intrigued by heavens vault since your first mention and a couple of months ago I decided to give it a try. Boy was I disappointed... It has a really interesting concept and a compelling mystery, but the game mechanics thwart your effort at every step. It seems that the developer went out of their way to prevent you to actually enjoy the game. Some "features" implemented in the game include, but are not limited to: - inability to fully investigate scenes, and arbitrarily being locked out of them if you misclick, for no reason whatsoever; - impossibility to fully question people: every step of a dialog contains 3 options and you can NEVER go back to investigate previous line of inquiry. Basically you can see only a single, specific branch of every dialog three in every game. - no save. Heavens forbid someone goes explore, investigate and question people in a game about an archaeologist investigating a mystery... I spent hours on a single phrase, consulting my notes (my handtaken notes, not only the ingame ones) to find the best possible translation. I built my personal dictionary, completed of ssql queries, since the game, whose main mechanics is the translation, is inexplicably missing one. Instead developers decided to cripple what could have been a beautiful experience to fist in a forced game replayability, when there was no need to in the first place, since people would have gladly replayed the game anyway, if only to get new words... Instead we got something I couldn't even bear to finish.

[@essneyallen6777]

Weird, I instead loved the flow of conversations in the game. It has a living feel, conversations are interrupted or dropped because the world around you does not stop to let you talk. I agree that it is sometimes frustrating, but it adds to the feeling. And the protagonist is not a blank self insert but a character distinct from you. She lies, she is diffident, she can be greedy or bigoted or oblivious or kind or manipulative or respectful. You get to know her, and to steer her towards being a more decent person (if you want). The game is 100% about building a narrative, even more than it is about solving a mistery. I seem to understand that "you can only see a single specific branch" of the narrative is very much intentional design, and the game teaches you immediately to be careful and thoughtful of your responses. (But I will point out that returning to places and speaking with recurring characters lets you to raise specific questions again).

[@cheyannegiles9772]

YEAH! I bought the game, but I couldn't figure out the flying mechanic, so i quit

[@Beregorn88]

@@cheyannegiles9772 oh God, the flying mechanics and the fucking rivers! One wrong turn and you have to make another 15 minutes trip around the whole nebula...

[@mawillix2018]

Ever play the Myst games? I still remember when my mom got me the first game, and I still remember how I got Myst 5 for a computer that couldn't play it back in the day, (I played through parts of it on my new computer when I got one.) Myst is a puzzle game similar to that space planet game you showed in the video that I already forgot the name of. You solve puzzles, and they let you see greater puzzles, that you then solve. The first game is about trying to leave an island. The fifth game, I haven't figured out what it's about, but it's fun. I guess that The Last Door was also a pretty ok-ish mystery game series, but really, it suffered from many flaws commonly found in mystery games. :P

[@armageddon845]

I appreciate that you include the titles of the games you feature.

[@Munchkin.Of.Pern09]

4:15 - Oh hello “The Vanishing of Ethen Carter”! I watched periodically as my Dad played that one... really good twist

[@TheAtb85]

Mystery, or rather curiosity, is the main push behind exploring in games for me. This applies to any genre. A little piece of lore nudging toward an uncharted side quest, for example. On a side note: if you like Phoenix Wright, try Aviary Attorney. It was a pleasant surprise for me. :)

[@meaninglez100]

This video also works as a list of recommendations to fill the void Obra Dinn left me upon completion

[@arenkai]

The Painscreek Killings is a favourite of mine in that regard !

[@dirien9126]

I've got the Solve right here... Adam: "What is Cloud Gaming?" Google: *Holding Stadia* "The Future!" Me: "I could buy three SSDs for the price of your one broken product."

[@igorthelight]

Google: *Sad robot noises

[@stanislaviliev6305]

I liked Sherlock but I won't stop watching you. AHAHAHA, You can't stop me now !

[@safe-keeper1042]

Loved the detective segment at the beginning of that Life is Strange episode, too (I think it was episode 3). Don't remember if it was you or someone else who mentioned it, but it's made so that you have so many options and possible clues and answers available that you're forced to actually think and reason your way to the right solution.

[@actualmadscientist]

I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention games like "Ghost Trick" for the DS, Danganronpa, or "the sinister eight", games that went under the radar and very much did make the mystery solving and gameplay mesh together well.

[@SianaGearz]

I have not played either of those but i can highlight another one, Shadow of Memories. It came out on PS2 originally, was quickly ported to Xbox and PC, and then eventually PSP. The game is an adventure where at the start of each chapter, the protagonist is killed, then resurrected, and has to prevent his murder or accidental death. Among your tools you have time travel between several eras, NPC dialogue and inventory. The basic playthrough through the story is quick and not too difficult, but it leaves you with more questions than answers, and by playing the story multiple times, and exploring different endings, you get to unravel the unrelying mystery. Eventually you might get to the true ending. There absolutely is forced pacing there, you simply don't have the options that you need until prior endings/playthroughs unlock a particular piece of information you can act upon, but also you have to understand what's going on first hand in order to progress, which is easier said than done. As you might guess, the mind screw runs deep with this one. Apropos under the radar. Time Hollow is by the same writer; she is also known for Suikoden series.

[@WilltehGreat]

Disco Elysium is a good game but it doesn't really deserved to be included in "games that do mystery solving well". Without spoiling I can only remind you, that the mystery is impossible to solve until the game decides to let you go to the last location which is a decision the player doesn't get to make on their own. Outer Wilds totally is though, good call on that. I hadn't thought about it that way.

[@Grandmaster-Kush]

Indeed Disco Elysium is a linear game, you can reach alot of conclusions that are correct but you cant act upon them until you reach the end

[@takkik282]

Yes and No about disco Elysium. You can't solve the mystery before the end, but depending of the secondary quests you do and how you solve them you get different ending and different insight about what going on. You have more freedom with the secondary plots that you can ignore/fail to solve. The doomed Commercial center quest don't stop the first day and you can get another big twist later, but you really need to look for it. There is lot of 'hidden' informations. Disco Elysium is less about solving a mystery than exploring a story with different angles. Each copotype & political belief color the story in a different way and give you a slightly different ending. Example, if you go for an 'occult' path, you'll get lot of weird and surprising informations about the world and the plot. But I think the game would have been better if the murder plot was less linear and free to solve like a mystery game since in the end it's not the most important aspect of the game.

[@grandsome1]

Spoilers! Not only that but it has a severe case of suspecto ex machina. Scooby Doo has better suspect foreshadowing than this game. There could've be many way to make the suspect part of the background from the beginning since the suspect could move about the city with ease.

[@spikkle2627]

Higurashi and Umineko. Never read/played a better mystery than these two games, and I doubt I ever will. As visual novels they don't have any 'game mechanics', just fantastic writing and atmospheric horror. They carefully tease out the clues and information, playing with your expectations and your existing theories about what the hell is going on. On multiple occasions, just when I thought I had a good idea 'whodunnit', I had to completely scrap my theories and frantically draw up new ones. And I loved every second of it. I would want nothing more than to be able to play them fresh, all over again. Even if you're one of those people who has no time for weeb shit, if you think you like mysteries you owe it to yourself to try Higurashi and see if it clicks with you.

[@doller2749]

ive seen the anime series you think i can play them and they have something i havent seen yet?

[@electricant55]

@@doller2749 Higurashi novel has a lot of details skipped in the anime, but the core mystery is already solved so you won't get that much out of it. Umineko however is a must read whether you've seen the awful anime or not.

[@doller2749]

@@electricant55 gotcha thanks m8

[@IskandarTheWack]

You need to play the danganronpa series, clues are kind of given to you, but you have to piece if all together. Also you usually don't know what happened in the case till you are debating it in a court room style situation with all the other students, because you develop new info as times goes on in it.

[@Bamboo_bazooka]

I feel like skipping over the mystery in Persona 4 is a bit of a shame Solving it comes from rationalising all the available evidence and when I first solved it I felt pretty damn smart as you have to take all the previous evidence and look at it in a different light along with new information given by the red herring

[@cookies23z]

the amount of times the games tries to get you to stop was hilarious, my brother didnt get it after the first few "are you sure? there is nothing left" and got the "bad" ending... pretty funny

[@Gariel2007]

3:42 *Critical Failure* "I want to have Fuck with you" *Nailed It!* I sure hope that makes more sense in context!

[@troo_6656]

Did we just got rick-rolled in the video?

[@woofcat9363]

No your seeing things.

[@troo_6656]

@@woofcat9363 *you'r

[@woofcat9363]

@@troo_6656 Yarr!

[@ants-in-my-eyesjohnson1271]

Never gonna give you up....something something Robo... Lavos..... I don't know

[@tk9102]

Guilty Party for the Wii was a vastly underrated mystery game worth a look. When you're gathering clues you have to actually understand the context of the clues in order to win. It's a multiplayer game too with a nice little diorama aesthetic.

[@MegapiemanPHD]

A good mystery game is one that lets you solve the mystery yourself. Most don't let you do that out of the fear that you'll get stuck.

[@PosiAttiGuy]

Hearing the Whiring in Rags theme warms my heart

[@LuminothLumi]

You should totally play Hacknet and it's expansion. It is a great mistery game. Go do it now and you won't regret it!

[@HateSonneillon]

I had been looking for mystery games like this all last year as well. Have you played Unheard? Its a good solve the mystery game with audio only, you move around a room listening to peoples conversations to figure out the answers. I just started playing Painscreek Killings, unlike the Ethan Carter game you really need to explore and figure out the mystery yourself. I had also played a game on mobile called Murder Mystery, thats pretty good as well, the interface leaves everything to your imagination though but you do have to solve the cases yourself, sometimes with pretty tricky logic. I will try the games shown in this video too. Thanks for another great video!

[@missitheachievementhuntres560]

Matt Sonneillon i totally agree with unheard. It is a hidden gem of a game, it is so much fun!

[@HateSonneillon]

@@missitheachievementhuntres560 definitely, I just wish there was more cases. Steam curator? You must play a lot of games on steam. I think I have like 144 steam games myself lol

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

Anyone who liked this should check out Game Maker's Toolkit's video "What Makes a Good Detective Game?". They're both cool vids on mysteries in games.

[@Ashamedofmypast]

Return of the ones dinn best mystery game

[@CrazyConnor2]

"What *IS* Cloud Gaming" Oh OnLive, we hardly knew ye XD

[@Evanz111]

I miss this advertising campaign so much omg

[@jamespalmer9033]

Regarding Disco Elysium and the Doomed Commercial Area, that straightforward choice as to the solution based on your political alignment in Day 1 is not the only solution to that quest. There's a much deeper and altogether more... entroponetic reason for the DCA (and by extension, Martinaise itself) if you follow the quest line about helping the ravers set up their own nightclub in the church.

[@ArchitectofGames]

it's a pretty small quest but yes. About 2mm to be precise. ;)

[@Evanz111]

Danganronpa is the best example of this

[@physical_insanity]

Best decision I ever made was going into Outer Wilds blind. Never has a mystery been so enjoyable when you don't defeat the purpose of it.

[@agentj3627]

The best mistery game is A Hat In Time in the train mistery level

[@pedroscoponi4905]

Very clever editing with the bit at hourglass twins near the end. ;)

[@CR3AMPI3]

I think you would like moonlighter, it is probably one of the best games I have played to be honest, I didnt expect much since it looked like an indie game, but it really threw me for a spin. Dont give a final opinion until you finish the game, I think it will be your favorite too. Have a good day dad

[@Evanz111]

I love Atelier games like Moonlighter but the resource grind turned me off :( I think it’s an amazing game, it just doesn’t feel like it’s for me. Should I persist until the end?

[@rashkavar]

I recently picked up Her Story, and I took the approach of looking up innocuous things, as I was trying to get a feel for the character, having picked up that there were some odd inconsistencies with her behaviour. Got a bit of a surprise with one such search term. Spoilers ahead: Spoiler: One of the terms I looked up was "make up" - having gotten that from one of the early stories she tells about her and her husband having a fight that night, characterizing it as normal, they'd fight, spend a few hours apart and then make up. I got 4 results, and result 4 is her literally describing cleaning up, hiding a body, and how they proceeded to make up a story as to what happened. (I'm going with the twin angle because there's a lot of other weird stuff in this narrative that doesn't just get explained away by DID, and the portrayal of DID is really problematic in its inaccuracies.

[@sheilwood]

3:17 You legend. I hate you but you're such a legend

[@SuperBeardWill]

2nd 2020 Rick roll I've had already!

[@Talon_24]

Imho it's also important in mystery titles that sometimes, things are just not a mystery. When the scene starts with telling you "This person that is marginally involved with the current plot is really nice!" that almost always makes this person the prime suspect and the obvious first suspect can't possible be the real culprit when the expectation for anything in the game is "It won't be what it seems like at first". (Extreme variant mentioned at 10:29). Sometimes this is handled in a way that portrays everyone involved as horrible people who all have at least one reason to commit the murder or else, but then this doesn't really get me as a player involved when I have no reason to emphathize with anyone.

[@MikeTXBC]

Some of the best mystery games from Sierra Online. The two Laura Bow games ("The Colonel's Bequest" and "The Dagger of Amon-Ra") as well as the three Gabriel Knight games ("Sins of the Fathers", "The Beast Within," and "Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned"). I have a feeling your audience is too young (my first computer game was on an Apple II in 1984, so I'm likely a lot older than most here) to have played these - or even know of them - because these games were released anywhere between 1989 and 1999. That's a shame because they're great games, but unless you played them when they represented the pinnacle of technology and have nostalgia for them today, I can't see many modern gamers playing them due to the older graphics (we're talking EGA, VGA, FMV, and a low-poly 90s-era 3D game engine) and the incredibly hard difficulty that refuses to hold your hand at any step along the way, resulting in death a lot. Fortunately, these games allowed the player to save and load their game whenever they wanted because these games would've been impossible to play without that.

[@Kasaaz]

This must be why Steins;Gate works as a VN.

[@dudep504]

Brainpower! Let the bass kick OOOOOOOOOOOAAEAAIAU JO- Sorry, cant hold myself

[@appropinquo3236]

its funny how Adam loves to talk about outer wilds in his videos, because I'm trying to finish the game right now. The mechanics and premise of the game are absolutely genius.

[@StarlasAiko]

As someone fascinated with conlanging, and hopeful to one day create a conlanging myself, I immediately wishlisted Heaven's Vault when you talked about it.

[@KageRyuu6]

Dunno about the Sherlock tv show, but Kabkukichou Sherlock is quite the anime.

[@sakanagakyoko]

I hoped you talk about the madness of doctor dekker which is an oustanding game, you are the one asking the questions and that's about it, you have to guess who the killer is. The game chooses the killer at random so you cant get spoiled. Its very interesting (its not perfect, but the mechanics have a lot of potencial!)

[@cerocero2817]

Glad to hear someone calling out Sherlock, it's not a mistery show, and what's the point of seeing a guy activate his magic detective vision to solve a case without actual clues?

[@maximeteppe7627]

not only that, the mysteries are arguably not the focus, the focus is squarely on Holmes himself. But not on him trying to surpass himself to solve tough cases (he's pretty much in god mode from the start) nor on him trying to connect with his peers despite an atypical intellect (though he is very much alienated, the show seems to think it's very cool that he behaves like a jerk) but simply on him being the smartest and being insufferable about it.

[@YukitsuTimes]

Arguably, many of the stories are like that, partly due to framing it in such a way that Watson (and by proxy the reader) cannot know information Holmes does and in several stories he picks up on something with essentially detective vision. I think the reason you'd do it is to be impressed by the genius of the character and interested in the tale rather than attempting to legitimately puzzle over it for yourself. I think if you prefer trying to reason it out with an actual hope of being consistently right, or at least consistently capable of being right with the evidence at hand, you may want to read Agatha Christie instead since her mysteries tend to have more of the clues visible to the audience. Personally I like both stories but I don't bother trying to find solutions in Doyle's work. Still, Sherlock the show didn't ever really interest me either, I'll grant that. I dunno, something about a smug, drug addled jerk solving crimes in a book is just more engaging.

[@purpleghost106]

You might enjoy listening to Hbomberguy's epic exploratory rant on the matter. The title is clickbaity in that it's emotionally charged, but he uses his knowledge from filmschool to lay out arguments as to why it's a misrepresentation of the genre of the source material (that is, Sherlock Holmes novels) and thus fails to really be an adaptation. He called it "Sherlock is garbage and here's why" link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gpzSeHWFqJqYma8 But as to why you might show his "magic detective vision" this video by The Take makes the argument that it's used as a visual characterization technique. Basically it shows us How he thinks, and then the shows narrative can use that to show a contrast to other aspects of his characterization. They also outline how Sherlock as a show is about the characters, their interpersonal relationships and growth, making it a Drama rather than a Mystery. (And as a Drama it's compelling, but it'll never be a mystery) They also make the argument that it's an examination and partial rejection of the tropey archetype his character is usually presented as. "Sherlock: The Loner Genius Myth" link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqGWnX2bgth4e9k

[@Gaff.]

I think it's a little ironic that I enjoyed Sherlock as something to watch, but not as a mystery show, just as a funny and occasionally dramatic one, even though the original Sherlock Holmes stories are my favourite thing in literature. And I agree with everything hbomberguy said in that video. I just thought the show was fun despite that. I should note I didn't finish watching it. I heard it got really bad, so I never went back.

[@Great_Olaf5]

If you enjoy mystery games, I can't recommend Time Hollow (for the DS) enough. Of course, I don't especially enjoy most of them myself, so the fact that I enjoy this one might indicate it's not that great of an example of the genre.

[@JamesMiller69]

God damn I'm so happy you know who Tom is. His content absolutely slaps. You guys are like two peas in a.. United kingdom.. or something. Fantastic video btw!

[@TheIncredibleJounan]

What annoys me about Sherlock is that intelligence is used as magic. "I can tell that you have three identical dogs in your life somehow based on the number of hairs". There is LITERALLY no way to tell that. You could have been around one longer or there might be even more dogs or whatever. It does this with so many things and people are supposed to just accept it. It's just as bad as "it's magic. I solved all the problems with this spell!" with another flavour. If you want to read things where people act smart and you can actually understand it and go "I didn't think of that, but that's fucking brilliant" then I recommend getting into the rationalist community. It's like the skeptics but without the elitism and snootiness. Read The Metropolitan man or Mother of Learning. Great starting points!

[@tyrone70KeoneShyGuy]

I don't even tune in for the game design commentary anymore. I just wanna hear Mr. Vlanderplats's name spoken.

[@glenngriffon8032]

Speaking personally here I had no idea one was supposed to try and solve the mystery as one watches the film. Granted I haven't watched a mystery movie in a long time but I always just liked to sit back and let the movie play on and if I were to play a mystery game I would engage with it in the same way, passively; letting the PC do the actual detective work while I watch. It seems strange to me to try and solve the mystery before the end. But then again I'm the kind of high anxiety, high strung person who - when things get tense in a book or movie - skips to the end to see how things end up. Who is okay, who is gone. That way i can enjoy the rest of the story.

[@Killer97]

I was hoping he'd talk about games like 999 and vlr but honestly i didnt even think he wouldnt mention myst

[@diamond._.8186]

I think you’d really appreciate Umineko, I do recommend you get a patch to make it look better but that’s not necessary, it’s a visual novel that’s so so good, and it mocks you if you aren’t thinking

[@ExtraTurtle]

I really love how the Sherlock holmes games did this. They don't give you the solutions, but rather give you all the hints and then ask you what happened. it's up to you to say what makes more sense.

[@MrJears]

The portrait of the dicemaker is eerily similar to the painting of "Girl with the pearl" by Johannes Vermeer.

[@bohenian]

Solving the mystery of outer wilds is so satisfying.

[@liviousgameplay1755]

"MrTWithSomeTea" is a great tag. To all his patrons, keep it up!

[@mangckyatmamon]

You made me buy Heaven's Vault. One of the few modern games that actually grabbed my attention to finish it. Quite like Return of the Obra Dinn.

[@marcar9marcar972]

10:52 except this was done on purpose. The first cases of Phoenix Wright games always make the killers obvious in order to make puzzle solving easy and to help players get acquainted

[@payton.a.elliott]

Nice music choice at the beginning (its from Disco Elysium from anyone wondering).

[@MichelePandini]

Thank you for this video. I will have a lot of games to play now, cause this is the genre I like the most!

[@TheTheoser]

3:38 i see what you did there

[@mr_owl8228]

Chicken Police is criminaly underated

[@LaneGamesYT]

What about games that aren't necessarily mystery but have a lot of mysteries going on in the background? Undertale, for example, is packed full of details that add to the mysteries and worldbuilding

[@Cammymoop]

The mystery is revealed, you were in the pocket of big chess this whole time

[@TESkyrimizer]

What strikes me about mystery games is that the mystery has 0 replay value but has to be masterfully handcrafted. So at best it can be a wonderful experience but it can't be reused ever. But i guess that is the same for all narratives, but there is that crucial eureka element without which a mystery can become hollow. You can reread a book and appreciate it but you can't resolve a mystery more than once... I dunno. Maybe Im missing something.

[@artemisDev]

you should try Ace Attorney and Ghost Trick

[@613aristocrat]

Funnily enough, my favorite mystery sections are in KOTOR.

[@613aristocrat]

I never know what to do with the water world murder mystery...

[@Boomblox5896]

"... the tobacco and rum are favored by SEaMEN, *heh*..."

[@edwardnewtonLA]

Yehhhhh I'm good without the Sherlock hate. I didn't like it after the Reichenbach Fall, but I don't need to be a hipster about it.

[@Evanz111]

Agreed, it’s overdone.

[@whiskeyii]

I have to say, while I like the gameplay approach of Sherlock Holmes overall, I don't think I like how it let you pick a solution. It felt like you as the player could never be wrong, regardless of how ludicrous the solution was, which to me felt like it defeated the whole point of snooping around and looking for clues. Rather than the clues pointing you towards *a* solution, you could instead make the clues fit your own conclusion. And while that's certainly true to life, I didn't like that the game didn't ever tell you if/when you were wrong; for me, it felt like I was missing a crucial component of my expected feedback loop.

[@gd7681]

0:43 “whereupon Bruce will just tell you.” This feels like an incomplete sentence. Bruce will tell me what?

[@bigbone18481956]

SPOILERS for Disco Elysium Well, the Doomed Commercial Area is actually doomed because of the Pale. The novelty dice maker's business survives because her shop is not in the same building as the other failed ones.

[@goldensp3038]

Than what about "whirling in rags". It's the same building after all.

[@clvr51]

Hey Adam, have you played Paradise Killer? If not, you have to!

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

I tend to dislike most mystery games because they operate by omitting information. Imagine if I knew my locker combination... but if you were playing as me you can't open it till YOU find the combination. At that point there is a gap between the player and the world... and there is so rarely a risk in Mystery games so you have no pressure. An entire plot point of a Zero Escape game rides on that fact you're being omitted while playing as that omitted one who knows they exist. On the flip side, Danganronpa is a great mystery game imo because there is actual risk... you're not just solving the case but red herrings actually help you solve the case so it isn't just wasting your time. There is no omitting information, save for one instance which I hated till later when it actually closed it perfectly, which means you and the character are legitimately in the same boat. The game works with an enclosed cast in a locked area meaning you can NOT INTRODUCE NEW CHARACTERS. This means figuring out how things work is completely viable without any unfair twists... and sure even if you figure out where all the evidence goes through trial and error... The final bit of each trial is literally piecing it all together and laying out a story of exactly what happened. ...and I think figuring out who it is, that is the simple part of most cases at the end. Figuring out HOW they did it is the difficult part. I think trying to find a villain in of itself makes a weak stance, an holier then thou situation. Amnesia a machine for pigs, in its climax has you... rush to save the world. The enemies which were scary prior... are now the best option to deal with. You're the hero, you have nothing to lose, and messing up is better then the other outcome. Though I think I love some things people hate And people love some things I hate I think they need mechanics and lack of depending who plays and it should stay a varied genre. After all if every racing game was Mario Kart it would be horrible. If every RPG was FF7 it would be horrible. Just keep a standard in a series to appeal to the people who got it in the first place.