What does it take to be a professional composer? [INTERVIEW With Spitfire Audio's Paul Thomson]

[@kayceparkinson9018]

A friend of mine told me yesterday that I should pursue this career after listening to one of my pieces and that I would make a ton of money. I don’t think she knew how many fine media composers there are jostling for a project. The message from you and Paul on this video, and Christian Henson on his blog is that it’s kind of like the films and media industry in general; people don’t make as much money as you might think but the real reward is in the creation. Thank you for posting this.

[@shayneoneill1506]

For what its worth, if the composer facebook groups are anything to go by, 90% of competition for the entry level jobs are amateur blowhards who think they will be doing EPIC MUSIC with full orchestras and have no idea what actual film and television music actually sounds like. I mean Egos aren't necessarily bad things, when I taught guitar back in the day I would teach the same thing my teacher taught me "You are exactly as good as you think you are, so get delusional.", and by god it true, all the best musicians KNOW they are good, but started off merely believing it. However, dear god a lot of amateur composers are insufferable "Im the next Hans Zimmer" types. Arts a communal activity, and a composer is a head of a department, those are human skills, so a humble, warm and interested attitude might be even more important than actual skills. Fake it till you make it, basically. And have a backup plan in case the composing career doesnt pan out.

[@kayceparkinson9018]

@@shayneoneill1506 thanks for the reply. I agree. I used to play woodwinds in orchestra, symphonic band and jazz ensembles when I was in school. You kind of have to feel like you’re good at it to be good at it. Egos, like spices in a recipe, are a powerful tool that can make or break the dish. I dealt with a few in my section who’s egos made it intolerable and I finally quit playing in the ensembles due to that. (Who knows? Maybe they felt the same about me?). Warm, humble, and teachable are qualities Paul lauded in the interview. However, I’m probably not going to ever be more than an amateur if only because the culture of the film industry where I’m from would likely finish me off. I like making the music though. So I really don’t mind not being the next Danny Elfman or John Williams but I don’t mind trying to sound a little like them as a musician. On topic of humility, I find it a little funny how Christian Henson still discusses his imposter syndrome in his blog on a regular basis but he’s been doing this for a living for years with some large international projects under his belt. It goes to show that humility too can be a tough barrier to overcome.

[@robertostiak3986]

​@@shayneoneill1506 a backup plan might not be that good :P. We need to have an income and support our family but it's not the same as a backup plan. I deprived myself of too many things for most I guess. And now making music is all I have left :P (besides family and kids - which tops music any moment). With backup plans like for a job, life or free time I would not got addticed to making music and thanks to this I have some jobs now. But it's my case, I wasted to much time earlier, fortunately never skimped time on listening to music :P

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

I should probably do more on this as there is a lot of interest. When we say "significantly lower income" in terms of royalties that's set against a very high bar where composers - even 10 years ago - were making 6 or even 7 figures in royalties a year from a single show. so that's not the same as scratching a living! If you chase the money its still there but there is a big trade off in terms of creative satisfaction so the indie movies pay big in terms of creativity, but that's an income that you cant show your bank manager.

[@kayceparkinson9018]

@@ThinkSpaceEducation good point. I also weight chances of landing a job that makes high royalties against the money to be made. Plus, it’s giving a little piece of yourself to put your art out there, especially if they can fully direct the making of it. But you’re right-Especially with the A-listers-there is money to be made if you’re a savvy negotiator and produce the absolute highest quality content. The very best of them produce music that stands well enough on its own that their scores constitute a platinum album in their own right. I’m currently employed in business and accounting consultancy. I don’t think I can see making the switch any time soon; the culture in Hollywood scares me, and the Indy scene may be too risky financially for my family of 6. Maybe one day after I’ve gotten loads better at writing (the last 8~ years I haven’t done scoring and only started again recently) I’ll find the courage to make a few calls.

[@xyirx]

When I heard "Paul Thomson", I instantly hear "from Spitfire Audio" in my head. It's almost like his last name to me now. I think I have been watching too many Spitfire Audio walkthrough videos....

[@simonturner1]

I'm disappointed he wasn't "excited to tell us about..." today XD

[@glitchbot]

Sincere thanks for your advice and your time, gentlemen.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Youre welcome

[@roogrey]

A superb interview. Never quit, that's the key (no pun intended!). The day you quit could be the day before you were destined to write the piece of music that would change your life.

[@markbellinger]

Thank you guys, some priceless guidance here, there is always going to be a score that only YOU can ever write.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

thats it

[@Wolfbabypuppylove]

Great comment.

[@Motortriker]

Stickabilityness: I remember when I studied in another of the creative arts at college, we heard from a guest speaker from Magnum photos. The first thing he said was that none of us would make a living from photography; possibly one, but probably none. That was not based on seeing portfolios, just from statistical experience. And he was right: only 1 from my course is a full-time pro photojournalist today. He wasn't the most naturally gifted (I was 🥴) but he was determined and just kept on keeping on. His work improved and he kept pushing without being pushy.

For me, one of the best rule to keep preciously intact, is to never give up when you, as a music composer, have any issue possible before or during a project ! Totally agree with your great chat guys ! 🙏😃

[@warrenography]

So much fun, hooray, it's like having one's favorite youtube presenter and favorite sound library creator in the same video... last one standing is great advice. Thanks Guy!!!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Glad we could help!

[@yashkummar]

@@ThinkSpaceEducation is there hope for a 50 yr old to get into the industry?

[@zoommpro]

@@yashkummar - absolutely. You will have different challenges to address - maybe you have dependents to support - but so long as you go in with a realistic attitude and your eyes open there’s no reason you cannot be a success. Good luck!

[@FLH3official]

Excellent interview. Two of my favorites "youtubers" talking to each other, that's great. "The future of orchestra": As drum machines never replaced real drummers nothing will replace a real orchestra or a real instruments played by a real humans as a vox humana register on a church organ was never replaced by real singers. Or the opposite. And a real orchestra doesnt' replace a real synth, a real sliced tape or a sampler. We just have more tools. And it's a good thing as long we have talent and inspiration. That's the hard part.

[@joshistitic]

This is the best collab since Avengers Infinity War

[@liknyne]

Finally, a Spitfire crossover. Love it.

[@nathanmarshallmusic]

Thanks to the both of you! Where would we be without you?

[@Po1itica11yNcorrect]

Lord knows I have an excess of sample libraries and of them all, Spitfire Audio libraries are my favorites by far. Especially their Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra, Chamber Strings, and Spitfire Studio Orchestra. All three sound simply gorgeous "straight out of the box" with minimal to no tweaking. But the ability to tweak is there in spades for those that choose to do so. Especially in the professional versions.

[@guymiddleton5275]

Great to listen to you both chat. Inspiring, honest and what I needed to hear. Thanks!

[@chrismoule7242]

3:29 - indeed so: it sound really, really obvious, doesn't it, especially when you write it down as I am doing now [but not when Paul is saying it, of course], but it is absolutely true. I can hear a variety of influences in my own work - though I believe that I have my own voice as well - that are entirely the product of the music that heard and played as I grew up. And that voice has changed accordingly over time. 9:53 - Oh yes - I nearly cried.

[@timolebeck6405]

Haven’t watched the video yet (still at work)… but I‘m very exited!

[@amindmuser]

Very nice discussion with insights into the business of film composing for a living. I'm one of the seemingly very few composers who prefers to work alone. I'm also very fortunate to be retired with the luxury of composing solely for my own pleasure. I guess that makes me a hobbyist, but the pressures you describe that most composers deal with sound awful. Thanks to both of you for all you do.

[@MartinJG100]

0:35. Fantastic, Paul. 'Per ardua ad astra'. And there was I thinking you were a chorister who graduated with flying colours from the rarefied realm of an abattoir. Great to know there are a few rounded players out there. Good stuff, Guy. PS - 19:50. Yep. Truism of life and sometimes feels more like the survival of the thickest.

[@jonathonwaltercox]

Also, I bought the BBC Orchestra Professional edition and absolutely love it!!

[@PendelSteven]

I wrote half a song in my head last night. That probably helps.

[@keiththeodosiou]

Two legends having a chat about music. Unbeatable!

[@charlesrobichaud-parahawkm4088]

This was brilliant, thank you gentlemen for being so generous with your time to share.

[@foxik7272]

Thanks for the interviews you've been putting out lately. They have really good insights.

[@desoconnor7445]

Really interesting interview …it is refreshing to hear folks chatting about what they love.👍

[@jasonanthonywebster8859]

That was unexpected, what a great video, I've really taken a lot from this, I am a stock controller by day and composer by night, this is the most relaxing and creative balance of life.

[@jonathonwaltercox]

That was a fantastic interview! I like the quote about 99% of people quitting. It kind of puts my 20 years of struggling to find projects to work on into a different perspective! Keep up the great work Everyone!! :-)

[@westheartmusic]

Great stuff guys - keep doing what you are doing - so valuable to us budding creators 🙏🏻

[@LindaMissad]

This is such a valuable conversation where "the truth" keeps it in perspective. I've been studying Thinkspace Courses for over 6 years now, loving every minute of it. I love the composing process, but have found that selling my music is very frustrating. Now that the pandemic has subsided a bit, I'm getting so much work as a performing musician. I realize that the "loneliness" of composing in my studio probably kept me from being as proficient as I could be. I've learned so much from you, Guy, as well as from Paul's videos at times. Maybe for me the experience of performing with other musicians is my path to earning a living and I can use my composing skills to enjoy the fact that I can now understand how to do that better. Still a big question for me. Thank you, Guy!

[@hugojames85]

How on earth are you getting "work" as a performing musician? I thought that concept ceased to exist years ago....

[@LindaMissad]

@@hugojames85 Theatre gigs and church gigs :)

[@hugojames85]

@@LindaMissad And people actually pay you for those? I'm not suggesting that you're not worth paying in any way: it's just a bit of a shock to hear of a musician being paid at all these days.

[@LindaMissad]

@@hugojames85 yes, I do get paid, reasonably well. I'm also in a band. At least in our area here, we're getting paid to perform

[@hugojames85]

@@LindaMissad Blimey. Whereabouts is that, if you don't mind me asking?

[@amaxlevin]

D-50's "Digital Native Dance"...that takes me back, I use to get lost in that patch for hours!

[@thebandthatisDAVE]

To be a successful composer/musician/producer you have to have a lot of luck! Be in the right place at the right time! Have a ton of tenacity! Be able to totally be flexible! Basically! “ITS TOUGH”!

[@abcdefgabcdefg8449]

The thumbnail looks like a very famous meme

[@jadonharper1493]

Inspirational, thank you both.

[@AlexRooneyComposer]

In regards to what Paul was saying at around the 8 minute mark about responding to humanity. This is one of the reasons that if I have a cue filled with synths and programmed percussion etc. I'll throw a guitar track or two in. Even if it's playing the most bare basic part. It's a human element in the mix that gives it that touch of humanity, at least more so than it would have before. It's the tiny little things that make or break it.

[@mdu2486]

I see you Guy, chilling with the Big Boys 😎

[@SergeGolikov]

Awesome exchange, thank you!

[@corentinmusique]

Really nice. Thanks for this interview

[@katie_marie_music]

Wonderful advice! Thanks so much for sharing.

[@TemmeSikkema]

Great interview, lovely conversation. Thanks for this, very inspiring

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

thank you

[@yannduez9639]

Just remember yourself, kid and innocent, dreaming about composing a film music and rocked by those famous existing music movies. Be confident, even if you fail. The way is : going forward and learning each day as they, pros, are living their dream too. Sorry for my bad english. And, just be yourself, not someone else. Have a wonderful day everyone.

[@dafingaz]

Great chat!

[@mageprometheus]

Great interview. Thanks, Guy, for the video showing how good Dorico is for scores. I've been using Musescore but after going through the Dorico First Steps videos I'm delighted.

[@Dave-nm8uk]

I tried Dorico briefly as it looked as though it would have one feature which MuseScore lacks in the current versions - albums. It was in MS.2 but not put back in for MS.3. It probably won't reappear in MS4.0 either, but may later on. Without being able to organise pieces into a larger structure there is a significant challenge. When I looked into how to do this in Dorico, it seemed to be almost as clunky as MuseScore. I'm not sure if Sibelius can do this - perhaps it can. The ability to be able to package up and reuse music files can be really important for some compositions. Maybe Sibelus really is still the tops for notation software - though I don't know. If it can insert files into another score, or albums for me that might trump everything else - but it comes at a price.

[@mageprometheus]

@@Dave-nm8uk I can't help you Dave as I don't know it well enough and have only ever done short pieces. The Dorico forum looks active, perhaps you could ask there.

[@MarkDonnison]

Great interview, very imformative. Thank you!

[@virgilsstudio]

Hmmmm, wish this was available on audio book... Any plans for this?

[@sfx1674]

Checkout Projectsam libraries, they sound so much better in many ways but the main one (amongst many many others) is their flexibility due to them being less opinionated and specific sounding!

[@pjdahmen]

thank you

[@D20Music]

I was hoping Guy would say; "I'm very excited today to introduce Paul Thomson" - Followed by Paul saying; "Hello everybody!!"

[@dbmusicproductions9181]

That made me LOL.

[@Bucking_Fastard]

I was sure it was gonna be a cartboard cutout, before he stared speaking.

[@michaellapoff8981]

Great interview Guy. Thank you! ...and Paul's book is very valuable resource,

[@newbiadk]

so much knowlegde shared here

[@highsocietymedia4098]

great words

[@gordenscottfan3107]

Love watching your teaching....how does one learn to play around melodies....I get stuck following the melody and cannot add or play anything around it?

[@luoshengying]

Hear, play and read the music.

[@richardhood4512]

Guy are most composers also quite good musicians (pianist for example)? I jumped into composing (Ableton Live) in 2020 then realized I really needed to get better at piano so in 2021 jumped into re-learning piano (had been away from it for 30 tears). Obviously it helps to be a good musician and to know theory reasonably well, but just curious what most composers are like. You for example, can you play piano (or other) well?

[@GTSongwriter]

If I've got Native Instruments Orchestra Essentials ... What orchestra library would best compliment it?

[@Dave-nm8uk]

Very interesting - though I'm too old to benefit in the obvious ways. Re Spitfire Audio - this seems largely to have concentrated on orchestral music and sounds - and done a good job, but would there be any merit in exploring other genres - such as chamber music (strings? they sound different in small groups than in a full orchestra) or jazz (I'm unaware - probably though my own negligence of any good sound libraries for jazz combos), or even earlier music (I understand that Spitfire used to have some good recorder sounds which are not in most of the current library offerings) such as recorder consorts or early organs? I liked the insights - get paid, really want to do it, learn something from it - otherwise don't bother! Another - it has to sound different. If it sounds like everyone else don't bother! Also this quote from Beecham about Walton's Belshazzar's Feast is perhaps of some relevance : "As you'll never hear the thing again, my boy, why not throw in a couple of brass bands?". How wrong he was that the work would never be heard again, but many composers only get to hear one live performance - if they're very lucky, and many don't even achieve that. Tools such as notation software and instrument libraries make it possible for composers to shape their work much more effectively. Last suggestion 99% of aspiring composers (creative artists?) give up, so if you keep trying you (may) at least have some chance. I think each person has to decide that for him/herself.

[@6stringbeats397]

This gave me the push I needed

[@russellaustin8453]

Only three words rang true for me - and that's "If you're lucky". I've known many RCM & RAM Composition Graduates who have tried to establish themselves as composers for decades and have never got anywhere. Most tend to drift in to teaching. For myself I've seldom been convinced that improvising a few coloured lines into a DAW hardly ever constitutes a good orchestration. I do wish that "Spitfire" would make libraries specifically for Sibelius, Finale, or Dorico !

[@avsystem3142]

Are you suggesting that writing scores with a pencil and paper makes for better orchestration than using a sequencer? Also, what would make a sample library specific to a particular brand of DAW?

[@robertostiak3986]

@@avsystem3142 We know it doesn't matter, so maybe, just maybe there is enough luck for all grinding over the years :P

[@poltergeist_16]

Если сравнивать 1176 от Артурии и Pulsar 1178, кому отдадите предпочтение? Или они слишком разные?

[@144digital]

Hello Guy!

[@DanIel-fl1vc]

I think composers suffer from a similar problem as self proclaimed "artists" do, not enough demand for the supply. There are at least a couple of thousand people just as good as you are, so it's a lottery whether or not you'll get a job. Your best bet I think just like with artists is to learn a second trade and combine your music or artistry with it. You could make a small indie movie and compose for it, you could learn to code a game and create music for it. Doing that you'll also be able to hire some of those people with talent that have no work. Sounding "different" for the sake of sounding different I don't think is a recipe for success. No point in reinventing the wheel, music has been figured out.

[@MrTsetso]

Easy - you compose, they pay you!

[@loloderxd]

I was here

[@music_creator_capable]

Hello ^^

[@hugojames85]

Ah, yes.... the "Marco Polo effect". Who was the first European to make contact with China overland? Marco Polo, of course - everybody knows that! Who was the second European to do it? Errrm.... So in the past it was possible to "break in" to the music business because not every single aspect of it was corporately controlled and professionalised down as far as making the tea. These days you need a billion-dollar marketing budget just to sing in the shower....

[@yashkummar]

I was 2nd...then had to drop out and come back. Lol

[@delta61]

Second!

[@Martinbeef]

Couldn’t they afford Hans Zimmer?

[@tavil1296]

6th!!

[@omnipop4936]

First!😁

[@aospence]

Second

[@charlesshingles3910]

As I was listening to you guys discuss the various forms of media writing,it immediately caused me to think of the music and sounds of Rachel Claudio ( known simply as Claudio). She has a video on you tube where she discusses including her emotions in her music and demonstrates it. I don't know if you have had any experience with her work, but it's well worth a look. Since discovering her work, my own workflow has changed dramatically, not in the way of imitating what she produces, but in incorporating an emotional aspect in my (sad) attempts to produce something worth-while. Previously I found my work sterile and unsatisfying, but now my music has seemed to take on a life of its own. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2bcqXywqJqKq8k