What Happened to America’s First Megacity?

[@margis.5873]

I had the privilege of being a member of the archaeological crew at Cahokia in the summer of 1973. We were uncovering the discoloration left by the buried bases of palisade logs. What an impressive city!

[@ablanccanvas]

So jealous. 😌♥️✨🇨🇦

[@silva7493]

@@NotIdefix If writings weren't found, it doesn't mean they never existed. Per Google; "While writing is generally considered a key component of a civilization, the exact level of complexity required in a writing system, and how much weight should be given to other factors like social organization and technology, can be debated by historians." Civilization can be nuanced.

[@sumdude4281]

Thank you for your work and contribution to society.

[@RobKaiser_SQuest]

@NotIdefix where is your archaelogical experience centered?

[@VZerda]

@NotIdefix If your definition of civilization is dependent on the presence of writing, then what does civility, or the act of being civil mean? A challenging idea I’ve heard that has started to make more sense is that civilization starts with evidence of bone setting on elder skeletons, things that indicate people held on to the value of one another’s life beyond utility.

[@alexrayoalv]

My pet peeve is that artists renderings of Mississippian sites always depict the mounds as green and covered in lawn. Very anachronistic. The grass that the state parks sow everywhere is of European origin, for one thing, and according to Pauketat the mounds would have been dark colored, even black.

[@HuckleberryHim]

Yeah I don't understand that, it's like making the Mesoamerican pyramids covered in vegetation just because that's how they were found. I think it's unlikely they looked like that "in life".

[@harrisre-nee3017]

@@alexrayoalv You.just.BLEW.my.mind!!!😭🤯

[@harrisre-nee3017]

@@HuckleberryHim Excellent point! I never thought about that!👏🏿

[@alveolate]

a similar analogy exists even with the western world - people believed the greek statues were bare marble for centuries, perhaps even millennia. but they were painted in vibrant colours, which means all those plain, unadorned "reproductions" of greek statues, some of which are themselves centuries old now, were all mistaken. same goes for the pyramids of ancient egypt as well.

[@mchervino]

I think you're misconstruing, or at least exaggerating the context Pauketat said that under. He offered it as a speculation, at most. And not a very good piece of speculation, if you ask me. Pauketat often panders to the fringe of archaeology, which is fine, except people take that information as gospel. Even bare clay soils would quickly turn into a mess after rain and snow and ice affected them. The mounds would have often been mud pits. Also, grass is a perfect cap for erosion control, and this is in addition to the internal erosion control efforts found inside of some of the mounds. The truth is, nobody knows the finish of the mounds, but reason would go against them being bare - even for ceremonial reasons. There's nothing anachronistic about it. Many of the depictions were painted by Bill Iseminger, an archaeologist and, for a time, assistant manager of the site. He worked there for decades, though I don't know how long he served as assistant manager. He also authored the book, Cahokia Mounds, America's First City.

[@mchervino]

Equally impressive is Cahokia’s influence over much of the eastern woodlands, as a whole. A robust economy thrived around Cahokia that extended for 100s of miles in all directions. I live near a few prehistoric mines containing materials relished and heavily utilized by Cahokians. A fascinating ecosystem, indeed!

[@secularmonk5176]

I have pondered alternative histories where the Mississippi culture develops independently in a manner similar to the Chinese river valley cultures ... with maize rather than rice.

[@adurpandya2742]

and today, the Jones Act prevents any sort of return

[@t_ylr]

I grew up in a suburb of Atlanta and there was a small mound city called Etowah that we visited for a field trip once.

[@markpashia7067]

@@t_ylr Actually there are several mounds in that region that are still protected. It was a local area center that was heavily connected to the leaders at Cahokia. The same for Indiana and many places. Etowah was the forefathers (and mothers) of the Cherokee and others of the "civilized" tribes.

[@daniel-a-Lamanite]

Does anyone know of any evidence that Cahokians smelted metals?

[@kevinolive]

In 1904, 16 mounds were destroyed to build out St Louis Forest Park for the World’s Fair. St Louis used to have a nick name of mound city because of all the mounds which is hard to believe given that there are is just one mound remaining on the StL side of the Mississippi

[@mariahmier9313]

💔

[@harrisre-nee3017]

Sad, but true! Also, St. Louis is still called mound city (mostly in Black professional circles). There's a business downtown on Market, off Jefferson, called "Mound City Sandwich Shop", another one on Olive called "Mound City Shelled Nuts", and the Black lawyers ⚖️ association is called the Mound City Bar Association. Also, there are actually (partially destroyed) mounds still in Forest Park! Art Hill is one!🌄😁

[@shroomzzz]

Thanks for sharing. Fun fact: this isn't even the worst thing we did to them. 😢 That road runs right through it, how many people drive over it every day without knowing the history?

[@harrisre-nee3017]

@@shroomzzz Good point!🫠

[@AlbertaGeek]

Sounds about white.

[@ExceptionalLibra]

I'm from Blytheville, Arkansas. My town runs along the levee for the Mississippi River. Those mounds are everywhere.

[@MsSherrick]

Thank you for diving into Cahokia, and our misunderstandings about indigenous people here in the Americas! I moved to St Louis from Colorado 2 years ago, and have been deep diving into the topic since. My education on the history of the land I live on was so terrible, and I feel obligated to fill in those gaps as an adult. Having the opportunity to walk the mounds weekly is something I will never take for granted. Todays local news is that one of the 2 last houses remaining on the last St. Louis side mounds is being given back to the Osage people once the inhabitant dies or moves out. (she has been there 71 years!) The erasure of the mounds has devastated me, and I am delighted to hear the right thing happening, even if it is at this late date.

[@samwisegamgee8318]

I can’t believe we are leveling these beautiful mounds of dirt. What history, what beauty, what complexity in these piles of earth that have been lost.

[@joshuatree2537]

These people are not indigenous. They just came earlier than Europeans.

[@karenm69426]

I built a great deal of it as King Tamara, along with the Statue of Liberty, Mara Lago. This was part of the Khan empire, that was the Golden Horde. This was a grand civilization with free energy and extraordinary cities. Tamaroas-Ta Moroas/Las Moroas-The Moors. Ancient Kaskians-kasakians etc. Granda was next door and the region was called Coffa like Feodosia. We were beyond advanced than what people today can fathom. 🙏🏼 the real Golden Age, and we shall return.

[@danielsprehe]

The unfortunate part is the 4 lane highway (and random residential house) smack dab in the middle of a world heritage site.

[@Maximiliano896]

That’s sick and depraved for them to do that

[@markpashia7067]

Kind of understandable since the world heritage site is such a tiny piece of the whole picture. Would you tear down all of St. Louis City to preserve the original area of Cahokia? Some things were there before the protection happened. The protected what they could of what was left.

[@zuzuspetals6040]

The indigenous built a mound of earth, but the structures on and around the mounds did not survive unfortunately. I believe if more of the structures survived, take the Acropolis in Greece which is older than Cahokia for example, the area would have been treated differently

[@vanleeuwenhoek]

@@zuzuspetals6040 That's called 'ruin value.'

[@BethReed62]

So American.

[@DougGrinbergs]

Excellent production, much appreciated!👍 Good info to update Wikipedia articles.

[@greentravels2850]

Interesting background and updates regarding the magnetometer surveys; exciting to see the hidden world below. I've been here once or twice on my visits to the St Louis area; there was a sense of awe and reverence while walking around. Knowing that such a huge civilization was here long before Europeans was quite impressive.

[@25jessieg]

Our 8th grade field trip was to drive from Kansas City to STL to see this place. Didn't grasp how big of a deal this place was back then. Definitely do now.

[@jakemoeller7850]

This path of American history was sorely lacking when I was a youngster. Amazing indigenous history!

[@samwisegamgee8318]

Probably because their greatest accomplishment was piling dirt and building max 6 story buildings in that. Compared to old world history it’s pretty lame. We end up patronizing Cahokia because it’s literally the only city above Mexico before Europeans.

[@jgreed5]

I’m from northern Ohio and I was raised learning about all kind of Native American history. We even had a statue outside which coincidentally got taken down 🤦🏽‍♂️

[@pipadoepa]

@@samwisegamgee8318 Cahokia was able to build massive structures entirely by hand, without animals, wheels, or metal tools - they had to work with the resources and technologies that were available to them at the time. Despite the limitations they were still able to create monumental works which requires advanced knowledge of engineering, soil stability, and labor organization. Cahokia was also massive, larger than many European cities at the time, and had a dense population with complex political and social hierarchy. On top of that they had extensive trade networks spanning across the continent. Your comment is reductive and such a narrow view of history, I'm kind of embarrassed for you to be honest. Also, Cahokia is 'literally' not the only pre-Colombian city above Mexico. As a matter of fact, it is part of a broader Mississippi culture that had other cities such Etowah and Moundville. Not to mention the Puebloans, the Hohokam, and The Hopewell and Adena cultures.

[@eleanorligon7941]

Went there a couple years ago, it’s truly amazing. Pictures and videos don’t do it justice, walking around there it’s just mind blowing how large this city was.

[@picnicblanket6428]

absolutely

[@Eric-mf7eo]

I am an archaeology student and I participated in an excavation at this site for a month. So glad it's being given the recognition it deserves.

[@carlosrivas1629]

bunch of woke liberals are really trying to avoid calling them savages and they definitely that too.

[@intercat4907]

Eric, would you be willing to share the organization that was sponsoring the dig? Or any other tip? I want to come out from CA to volunteer and don't know where to start. Thanks.

[@Eric-mf7eo]

​@intercat4907 I apologize. I don't know if I have the resources you're looking for. I went there as part of my field work requirement for college.

[@BambiBreaker]

So do tell, they all left because they had to walk up those big hills to their houses right?

[@talesofunity]

Say Eric, since I'm writing a "what-if" alternate history sci-fi and wanted to reference this culture and many others. Got any favorite takeaways about the culture, the site, or others you're passionate about right now?

[@debries1553]

8:13 I get that it's evocative illustration, but it's weird to show horses when talking about pre-Columbus native Americans.

[@Sylkis89]

OOPSIE lol Someone clearly made a blunder and it slipped through the cracks in the QA review

[@erkmerkk2950]

DUDE I WASN'T THE ONLY ONE?!

[@praytells]

so glad someone else caught that lmao

[@FactCheckerGuy]

And a rifle.

[@NicholasPellegrino]

Yuuuup!

[@generubinaudio]

Excellent short video on a site that I have always been fascinated with. Thank you PBS.

[@ellenchavez2043]

I'm from Illinois and found Cahokia when my son and I did a "See Illinois" tour during spring break. The visitor's center is really well done and very informative. Artifacts from the Gulf and Northern Mexico have been found, indicating trade along the Mississippi River. You can see the St. Louis arch from the top of Monk's Mound on a clear day. It is a World Heritage site.

[@godisgooey]

So wonderful to see the true story of North America before European contact being told. Wonderful graphics depicting what this amazing society could have looked like.

[@sarahthelizard]

This was awesome to see about something usually left as a footnote in books.

[@soad3838]

Thank you for making this episode. Such important research. As someone living in NYC, I've thought about the history of urban form on American land. This seems like the quintessential example to learn from!

[@grantmosal5475]

The St. Louis arch should not be a national park, but Cahokia absolutely should be.

[@FluffyFluffles]

What's wrong with the arch? It's not like there's a finite number, they can both be parks.

[@grantmosal5475]

@FluffyFluffles Almost every single national park is a "park" because of natural beauty or because it's a world heritage site (like Mesa Verde). Every other man-made structure is a national monument, not a national park. Giving it a national park status would help protect Cahokia more from land developers and bring more attention to its historical significance. The arch is not rich in natural beauty and its only 60 years old. It didn't even exist when a lot of the current national parks were even dedicated as national parks.

[@FirstMrNick]

It didn't used to be a national park, it was designated in trump's first term and I remember the criticism that they didn't name it a national monument instead. If I remember right Roy blunt buried this in a bill, which we all know no one reads the bills they just lobby to get them passed without knowing the details that are in them

[@technopoptart]

@@grantmosal5475 100%

[@rocketGimbal]

It is for the federal funding though, there is a whole museum and park ground there too, not just a monument. Idrc if it is a park or monument but that is why it is like that. Like another said there is no finite limit on national parks so basically a non-issue. Cahokia would be an awesome national park too, but crucially it is also man-made lol

[@tyler5914]

Be smart people. ;) glad to see you on PBS!

[@AndyXx-lb4px]

Pretty amazing I've never heard of this place. Also your drone pilot gets some good shots!

[@edithstone5367]

I have lived in the Midwest my entire life and knew nothing of this site. I thoroughly enjoyed this short clip and plan to study more about the Cahokia civilization. Thank you for such informative and intelligent reporting.

[@athanatic]

My father and I traveled to tons of sites like in Mexico, Egypt, and Ireland. We grew up in Iowa. It would have thrilled him to hear this story of where we were! We always revered the indigenous people of the land we ended up on.

[@blueprairiedog]

Remember, folks, the people who lived in the past had the same brains we have. No wonder they were capable of planning, organizing, building, and thriving.

[@sansm5285]

and politicizing as well :)

[@RonHammers]

I'm working on a map for "Timberborn" that is based on Cahokia.

[@SJ-um2ym]

Thank you for this episode. Can we have more like this?

[@theoldar]

No horses in the illustrations please!

[@alecity4877]

yeah it got me a bit ticked off at 8:14, the horses were reintroduced to the americas by Europeans, and natives who got familiarized with them and started using them are the ones depicted there, from much later after multiple cultural changes and migrations as well as societal pressures. Cahokia's conflict would have been completely horseless.

[@AB-wf8ek]

Ha! Yea that threw me off. The difference between when Native Americans adopted horse riding in the 1600s and the 1200s, would be like talking about the Renaissance and showing an illustration of someone driving a Model T.

[@charlesbranscomb8493]

​@@alecity4877horses been here Europe ain't brung shit here.. y'all think these backward ass half animal half human people who still the smallest potion of the world population really ha that much control and really was so advanced above everyone else.. really need to read books from the 14 15 16 and 17 hundreds to get the real picture we had swords horses and everything. They had. You probably think the Indians died from disease no we didn't only one percent died the rest was here some was saves and some was mixed with the Chinese India phillipino slaves and the white slaves and became a new race but still more indianthan HEATHEN

[@charlesbranscomb8493]

​@@AB-wf8ekno it's not

[@AB-wf8ek]

@charlesbranscomb8493 How so? The Model T was invented in the 1920s. If you go back 400 years, it would be the 1520s.

[@FirstMrNick]

I grew up 20 min from St Louis and did not hear about this place until my mid-20s, it was not taught in k-12 school. South STL was covered in mounds which were bulldosed for houses. Ive been to the museum there and the artwork and pottery looks like aztec. I have found several quartz arrow heads walking the creeks, and I know many others who also have found a lot of them in so many places, just 1 person I know has found 1000s over the past 20 years and its spread across a very very large area west of the Mississippi, theres so many found that it makes you really question just how many used to actually live in the area? Absolutely more than they claim. Also, every year they have some people show up for the winter solstice since it lines up with monks mound. There are some very old maps that show the path of the river, it has moved a lot to where it is today, its not far from the mounds.

[@opalexent]

Why would you finding a certain number of arrowheads lead you to believe researchers estimates of the population at Cahokia are wrong? That's so illogical. There is little connection that can be drawn between the Aztecs and the people of this site. Y'all will literally get on the Internet and say anything with zero evidence or expertise. There is tons of literature on Cahokia is you're interested in educating yourself. Feeding Cahokia is a very interesting recent book, written by an expert. At the least, stop spreading misinformation ffs

[@bogtrottername7001]

Most of the "arrowheads" you & they found are most likely much older than the Mississippian culture. I own many local points but very few of them are true arrow points.

[@mrnativesun6880]

Thank you for acknowledging the people. More Indigenous Oriented episodes.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

Agreed, cousin.

[@stevenc123]

3:58 That's some impressive driving

[@StopProject2025]

😂😂😂

[@Aeyekay0]

Id be interested to know what lies under St. Louis, there mounds there too but were destroyed when the city expanded. Great video

[@KatjeKat86]

Sadly a lot of cities on midwest rivers destroyed mounds in their construction. You can even read accounts in first person letters of when the mounds were still there in most places. Once in a while they're on old maps but otherwise there's no reference to them at all now like we try to pretend they didn't exist. Which is such a shame and a sad waste of beautiful part of the history of this country.

[@amystalker9367]

Thanks!

[@isomeme]

First, that was a wonderful video. Thank you. Second, there is a terminology problem in American indigenous cultural studies which it seems important to resolve. The term "North America" is used inconsistently. Sometimes it refers to the entire continent, down to the Isthmus of Panama. Sometimes it excludes Mesoamerica, the region roughly from the valley of Mexico to the Isthmus. This leads to endless confusion. People often abbreviate "North America north of the Valley of Mexico" to "North America" without explaining that usage. I've even encountered a lot of lay people who think the Aztecs and Maya were in South America, because they've heard them dismissed from discussions of "North American" cultures so many times, Am I the only one bothered by this? Are there any plausible proposals for more intelligible terminology for this topic?

[@MajoraZ]

As somebody who follows Mesoamerican history and archeology, I'm used to people using Mesoamerica, Aridoamerica, Oasisamerica, then terms like the Pacific Northwest, Eastern Woodlands, etc as terms. Central America is often reserved for the area BELOW Mesoamerica but above South America. But as you say, technically North America extends down to Colombia/Panama, and technically even Central America as a concept would include at least parts of Mesoamerica by most definitions, etc.

[@isomeme]

@MajoraZ , exactly. It's a mess.

[@samwisegamgee8318]

This has never been an issue because jack shit happens in the area between Colombia and Mexico for 500 years. Probably why nobody has bothered to further distinguish

[@TheMikefarny]

Is nobody going to mention that to the first nation peoples living there, it isn't really any form of 'America' to many of them. Is it beyond the scope of archeology and present day Americans to use indigenous terminology for that time period?

[@isomeme]

@TheMikefarny , first nation names are very often used when they exist. However, these peoples didn't have names for specific very large regions like "mesoamerica". Words like the Nahuatl "Anahuac" , literally "place close to water" and figuratively "[our part of] the world", are too vague to be directly mapped to regions. What's more, replacing "mesoamerica" with "Anahuac" would misleadingly favor the Nahuatl name over all similar names in other indigenous languages of the region.

[@DNS-FRANK09]

Cahokia has always astonished me

[@AhJodie]

Part of this system goes into Wisconsin, where I live, and Aztalan State Park is one of the bigger known mounds that has been partially preserved. Thank you for this information!

[@roncarroll4136]

I found the topic to be very engaging and related to historical events or figures, making it particularly intriguing to learn about. Intriguing involved details about past events, people, or cultures that sparked your curiosity. Historical context: The discussion likely provided background information about the time period and its significance. Engaging delivery: The way the information was presented, whether through storytelling, interesting facts, or vivid descriptions, contributed to your fascination. THANKS PBS

[@quakekatut8641]

New Madrid paleo earthquake records shows there was earthquake events in 1450 (within a 150 year -/+ timeframe). Very similar in magnitude of the 1811-1812 sequence. After the 1811-1812 sequence, many people left the region. Perhaps this was the case for Cahokia.

[@KatjeKat86]

The earthquake occurred about 200 years after people no longer inhabited the city in any great number.

[@GarretGrayCamera]

I was there two summers ago. It's one of those rare places that's really great to explore and learn about and there's not a big crowd. That could be thanks to the rather run down part of town it borders.

[@danielzhang1916]

I've been to Ocmulgee Mounds in Georgia, very similar to Cahokia

[@TheKeksadler]

I think it's important to note that we do not have any definitive evidence of any modern nation directly descending from those that built Cahokia. All of those historically in the region at the point of contact were likely in the Cahokian sphere, however the city is such a crowning achievement it's very alluring to claim it as your own; I hope one day we can uncover a definitive answer, as it would be fascinating to reconstruct these people's history and rightful legacy.

[@WhichDoctor1]

British people claim heritage from stone henge. Despite there being a near total population replacement event and multiple more cultural shifts and invasions between the builders of our prehistoric monuments and now. Why hold native peoples to a higher standard? Sure, it's interesting to research the movements of people and cultures. Just like the research that shows how separated us brits are from our neolithic past. But let people claim association with the ancient monuments of their land. Specially when there are literally just a handful of centuries separating them and nearly everything else has been taken from them

[@Tijereño]

My guess is that it probably was a multicultural city complex rather than a single culture’s center of power. The city probably had multiple quarters populated by people belonging to different nations. The only known copper workshop in the Mississippian culture is in Cahokia, though the exquisite Mississippian copper plates have been found all throughout the southwest. The best analogy i can come up with off the top of my head is Nippur in ancient Sumer, which was a city which the entire Mesopotamian world was involved with

[@mchervino]

It most certainly was a melting pot of many groups/cultures/subcultures. And those people often took some of Cahokia back to the regions where they came from originally. Ties were clearly maintained. The Osage have have been dominate in asserting their claim of the site for decades now, and their pressure has clearly started to pay off for them. I'm not sure if it is right or wrong, but it is reality.

[@jeffkunce8501]

There's a serious theory (Graeber & Wengrow) suggesting that Cahokia was a tyrannical kingdom, and the people revolted to form more egalitarian forms of community (that the Europeans saw as "primitive.") It would be a bit sad that the Osage if are associating themselves with a brutal civilization that is admired by the conquerors, rather than the traditions of their more recent ancestors.

[@danmadrid8227]

@@jeffkunce8501 Maybe relax.. there's other books out there and the history is not definitive.

[@jigold22571]

Absolutely Wonderful.

[@kevinkeefe5826]

Great video!

[@treestonecimino8358]

Dude.... You're on PBS! Well done sir! Yes.... More videos like this with you in it!

[@ninamo3523]

According to my anthropology professor, building Cahokia used up most of the Red Cedar and other lumber in the surrounding area. This made the climate much drier and impacted agriculture.

[@samwisegamgee8318]

But I thought the native Americans were perfectly in touch with nature before the evil euros came and ruined it for the whole continent!?

[@picnicblanket6428]

You have to see Cahokia in real life to appreciate how huge and tall it is it’s insane

[@eugenewall6620]

My belief is they built the mounds to keep important buildings above the flood level. This is in the Mississippi flood plain. Along the Amazon flood plain you will find the same thing. Also in Egypt, along the Nile’s flood plain.

[@alecksgee]

Thank you for talking about Cahokia!

[@magellanicspaceclouds]

Amazing. Makes me wanna go there and check it out.

[@user-wk1mw9nj3i76]

Very cool. Need to get that road out of there and take care of what remains intact. More like this, please.

[@AzGd98]

How have we not learned about this in school? It would've made it a lot more interesting for sure.

[@rowanell9668]

Elementary school in Columbia Missouri we had brief lessons on it in 4th grade, not much compared to post colonial history but they at least touched on it and showed us some of those drawings. That was about 13 years ago so hopefully it’s even better now

[@samwisegamgee8318]

Because at the end of the day, it was a very small city made out of mounds of dirt. When you consider there are only about 180 days per school year to fill with so much that has happened in the world, this is barely worth mentioning. Especially considering it didn’t last very long. Tenochtitlan on the other hand…

[@uphillwalrus5164]

It doesn't really have any relevance to American history

[@SpanishEclectic]

So glad you are disseminating information on this wonderful site, and the history of its people. The comparison timelines with what was happening in Europe should help people understand how wrong the colonizers were regarding the native people. As a child I was fascinated with Native American culture, and as an adult I've read quite a bit. The differences between the beliefs and organization of tribal groups in all parts of the U.S. (in fact, all of North and South America) are multitude, and fascinating. Where I am, in the Southwest, there are Pueblo ruins as well. This was a great overview to introduce people to Cahokia.

[@JeffreyGoddin]

Cahokia Mounds are the best Civ 6 tile improvement you get from city state sovereignty. Great for gold and food. Did they get it right at Firaxis?

[@JuggaloJWord]

I live about 45 minutes from monks mound. I loved seeing this pop up on my feed. This mini doc was awesome .

[@SteveRogers-v7s]

Mesa Verde was occupied until around 1300 CE, Cahokia, around 1350. Is there any research that addresses this?

[@gluonjck63]

Make Cahokia a National Monument like Colorado National Monument or Devils Tower. It is more important than we know.

[@kenster8270]

So, has it now been established that the ancient Cahokians spoke a proto-Siouan language? I know that several modern tribes whose [traditional] languages were Siouan have oral lore indicating that their original homeland was along the upper Ohio River and that they migrated or were pushed westward in pre-colonial times to the upper Mississippi River, which is where they were living when the first French explorers encountered them.

[@opalexent]

No, the video is wrong. Thank you for being a rare voice of reason in this disaster of a comment section

[@seanbeadles7421]

This is discussed in books like “Continuity and Change” by archaeologists like Robert A. Cook

[@ikeekieeki]

awesome video about an amazing topic, thank you

[@alexvlk]

10:20 how could Cahokia whose downfall is unknown be anything for the Osage people or European? As far they know, the Osage people could have been the conquerors of the Cahokia people.

[@bob_frazier]

Exactly. It's a common false theme for any culture to lay claim on whatever is under their feet as their heritage even when they have no known connection except for being there in the present.

[@zhirsr]

awesome! well presented

[@TheOzarkExplorer]

Wow! This is so different than what my wife and were told by the Park Rangers at Cahokia about 20 years ago. We mentioned that some of the artifacts there were very similar to those we saw in the Yucatan and Belize and that they must have been in touch with the Cahokians. We were told something like "their is no connection at all to any known tribes", and it was a scripted response. We pointed out some things and the Park Ranger repeated the exact same response each time and refused to even discuss it. Now, I'm going to offer that the bigger mounds there were built to be used as a place to cool off in the heat of summer after working in the crop fields. Go climb it on a summer day and you'll surely feel the cool refreshing breeze there is up there. It's akin to our "air conditioners". I brought that up with some Park Rangers when I climbed to the top of a pyramid in Guatemala and they were pretty astonished to hear that from an American. They got pretty excited because when they try to tell archaeologists from the U.S. that they don't listen. And they're really disgusted that they always assume those pyramids were used for human sacrifices. That may be true in some cases, but it is not why they were built. They were built to cool off in the Summer heat. Now, if you go to the Tulum Mayan Ruins at Cozumel you don't find any tall pyramids. If you go to the edge overlooking the ocean there is always a nice cool breeze there to cool you off. All that said, if you've not been to Cahokia do go spent some time there if you can. It is truly a National Treasure.

[@danielzhang1916]

back then, they didn't believe there was any contact, but now we know that tribes traded with others hundreds of miles away, there was an entire trade system in place

[@MajoraZ]

As somebody who follows Mesoamerican history and archeology, it is still very much the consensus that there was no direct contact between the Mississippians and Mesoamerica. Some goods were traded indirectly in A to B, B to C, C to D etc style format and may have reached that far, there's an obsidian scraper from Mexico found at Spiro Mounds in Oaklahoma for example, but the furtherest direct Mesoamerican trade and contact reached was Oasisamerican sites in Colorado, Arizona, and New Mexico. Not to mention that Moundbuilding traditions go back in the Eastern US prior to the Mississippians with the Hopewell cultures from 0-500AD, and as far back as 1500BC with sites like Poverty Point, and Mesoamerica was only first developing urban civilizations at that time. Maybe there was some faint indirect influences, but if anything the similarities are likely coincidences or are pan-american motifs (like how Proto-Indo-european cultural motifs exist in cultures as far as Europe down into India)

[@TheOzarkExplorer]

@@MajoraZ Yeah, that take on this is exactly what I am referring to. One of the things the Mayans I've met told me is that your version of their history is just flat out wrong and that those who promote it have been ignoring them since they first saw those old cities. I was taught that all those Mayans died from diseases the Spaniards brought with them, but the Mayans I met there told me that too was bullshit, and since they were telling me in person I have to believe they know their history. I suggest you go listen to them instead of telling them they're all dead and don't know their own history.

[@ricodelavega4511]

@@MajoraZ maybe not trade, but maybe some went down there and saw massive cities returned and said "we can do that." I'm more likely to believe that then that vikings made it to north america in any other condition than half dead from the long passage and lack of food. If they made it here, it was to fall down on the ground and die.

[@ufonomicon]

@@MajoraZcool story bro

[@LotsofWhatever]

Poverty Point in LA is also interesting. Its a World Heritage site as well, and so many have never heard of it.

[@randywoodley173]

There are hundreds of cities similar to Cahokia, perhaps a bit smaller or maybe some even larger, they have by and large been destroyed, grown over and are yet unrecognized.

[@jinbaittai85]

I'm from St. Louis and I've been on top of that mound many times with family and schoolmates. You can see for miles including the St Louis downtown skyline. People use the steps up the mound as a piece of exercise equipment during nice days.

[@briebel2684]

There's mounds all over eastern Kansas. Otherwise relatively flat landscape, then out of nowhere a decent sized mound. Ever since I first read about Cahokia, I've wondered if they might be related in some way. Or maybe even some of them started off as hills left over from the ice ages and then modified later by native peoples. Many of the plains natives share the same language, so logically you would think they had a shared culture at some point.

[@MarkGriffith]

Great educational content

[@medusianAllure]

Please take more classes on Indigenous theory and sciences. It's been a life changer for me and how I think about creating knowledge. I can't help but notice how anthropologists were the experts brought in first to talk. Why weren’t elders who carry traditional knowledge to this region framing how knowledge was being gathered? Oral traditions and the values imparted can be rich data to frame methodological frameworks. I'm not saying oral tradition is fact, but it should be the backbone for any work with cultures without writing systems.

[@technopoptart]

well it is a white-centralized show. the people who are considered experts only meet one criteria of educational background. you will notice there is also a skew of incorporating christian assumptions about what things are used for as a fairly objective "facts" as well if you go through the videos. it is the limitations of being heavily risk-adverse with what sort of narrative is put out. can't rock the boat if you stick to the hits and the accents should really tip you off on what the hits are :/ that being said as long as you take it with a bit of salt and do extra-curricular research on your own time it is pretty good for getting names and locations right

[@opalexent]

There are no remaining indigenous groups that are associated with this site. The assertion in the video that the Osage are historically connected is wrong and so easy to disprove. The Osage didn't even arrive in the area until several centuries after the peak of Cahokia, this according to historic evidence AND the oral history of the Osage. The Osage have taken on a roll as protectors of this site in the absence of the original Cahokians. Instead of making a bunch of ignorant assumptions and spreading misinformation, you can always do research

[@opalexent]

​@@technopoptartwhat the hell are you going on about? Y'all's ignorance is truly terrifying

[@danielzhang1916]

I think they were brought in because they worked at the site, not just because they are experts

[@nata3467]

used to visit Aztalan in Wisconsin, believed to have been trading outpost with Cahokia

[@kthfox]

Culture is not a museum, it is alive.

[@secularmonk5176]

And -- like the proverbial river -- culture is everchanging.

[@anonimosu7425]

Sumer :

[@metroidklr]

I'm so glad my family members took me to Cahokia Mounds several times when I was a kid. It's an amazing and mysterious place.

[@tomparker9001]

Maybe it was an island complex for when the river flooded.

[@tao.of.history8366]

Thanks for this great summary! Would love to see more pre-Columbus indigenous sites north of Mexico, there’s so little online outside of Central America & Peru.

[@jakobraahauge7299]

There's this "either/or" idea in many interpretations of societal decline It's either conflict or nature. It seems much fruitful to understand these declines as society and nature as intertwined, it seems odd in fact to consider society apart from environmental, and at this point time even the other way around

[@davidponseigo8811]

On my property in North Louisiana was a very large Caddo Indian village and we have recently found multiple different mounds , tools and weapons. We even found Spanish relics that we believe are from the DeSoto expedition which camped with the Caddo.

[@jacobweinstock2180]

Born and raised in St. Louis MO, why the hell I never here about this stuff (I know why) but I want more of this in my city gossip

[@philtirah]

So… researchers think they had a city of 15,000 but they walked around naked? Come on. It’s Illinois for goodness sake. If they walked around topless it basically naked, it was only happening like 3 months a year. lol. What’s they wear the rest of the year? Where’s the rest of their textiles? No examples at all of fall, winter, or spring clothing?

[@suzettehenderson9278]

Would love to see more attention given to the Adena, Hopewell and Fort Ancient monuments as well.

[@lorindav5549]

I guess I've watched too much Time Team, but was waiting for what the scans showed.

[@dan.w.hoover2556]

Excellent - thank you!

[@litsci4690]

Osage had NOTHING to do with Cahokia.

[@smoknonkermit8011]

Walked here as a kid!! Awesome to hear about it

[@mikezizis3725]

wikipedia: There are multiple theories for how Native American people obtained horses from the Spanish, but early capture of stray horses during the 16th century was unlikely due to the need to simultaneously acquire the skills to ride and manage them. It is unlikely that Native people obtained horses in significant numbers to become a horse culture any earlier than 1630. From a trade center in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area, the horse spread slowly north.[27] The Comanche people were thought to be among the first tribes to obtain horses and use them successfully.[28] By 1742, there were reports by white explorers that the Crow and Blackfoot people had horses, and probably had had them for a considerable time.[27] The horse became an integral part of the lives and culture of Native Americans, especially the Plains Indians, who viewed them as a source of wealth and used them for hunting, travel, and warfare.[29]

[@cvoges12]

When Lewis & Clark asked the native tribes about Cahokia, they said it was so far distant that they didn't even know much about them. So I highly doubt that the cahokian tribes today are an "unbroken lineage" from the original cahokian tribes

[@BIayne]

You're saying that all of the Cahokia died out and new people began claiming to be related to them?

[@Jesst7721]

What I find fascinating is how quickly domesticated crops developed, supernatural increase in crop size over what would seem to be an unbelievably short time scale, maize, squash, beans, nutz, wild fruit like pawpaw, blueberry, sunflower seeds and wild rice. RIght out of the ice age these folk were mining copper incredibly early from the great lakes and shipped it down on down along the Mississippi river. Facts are actually stranger than fiction, it's a rabbit hole worth going down. Haplogroup X. Crazy how a natural climate event like the little ice age lasting a few hundred years collapsed their civilization.

[@Tijereño]

It didn’t collapse it fully though. The center (or should i say centers) of power and influence shifted south. In 1539-1540 when De Soto’s expedition was moving through the southeast, they travelled through dozens of towns and cities from Florida to Tennessee to Oklahoma and found many city-states and cultures clearly related to Cahokia.

[@perfectallycromulent]

Maize was developed in a process that took a couple thousand years, one that didn't start until humans had been living in the Valley of Mexico for 10,000 years. It took 1000 years for maize to get from Mexico to Ecuador. That's not "an unbelievably short time scale."

[@heremapping4484]

​@@Tijereñowhat's more the five nations, excluding the Cherokee, alongside the Natchez and Calusa maintained clear ties to these systems all the way into the English colonial era.

[@opalexent]

​@@heremapping4484just no lmao

[@opalexent]

So much ignorance. Nuts wild fruit and berries were never domesticated here. You didn't mention several crops they did grow, like chenopod and little barley. There is so much information out there, and y'all insist on inventing shyt idgi

[@jamieleesilverEFT-Tapping]

Thank you for this video. I am very interested in the unfolding story.

[@paulristow3454]

Given what we know about European cities in the middle ages, Cahokia was probably a much cleaner (and more pleasant) place to live than London.

[@worfoz]

We don't know as much about Cahokia as we know abut London, so we can not know that. But in the America's, it's always a good thing to say bad things about Europeans because they should feel guilty and miserable. That's why Europe is probably a better place to live now.

[@worfoz]

@@astebbin Cahokians also had slaves, so by modern standards, they were brutal and cruel, and not very pleasant. It's interesting to learn about cultures and history, and why megacities like Cahokia do not exist anymore. In order NOT to make the same mistakes again.

[@jasonkinzie8835]

@@worfoz Good! We need to stop infantilizing Indigenous history. They had remarkable and fascinating civilizations that American kids should learn about in history class but they were not utopias. There is a history of the left, (I consider myself pretty leftwing by the way), thinking that Europeans brought all of the evils of history to the areas they colonized. Not true. And to see indigenous societies as utopian means we are not seeing them as human beings, just like ourselves.

[@ufonomicon]

@ yeah right. The new world was CLEARLY far more sophisticated than Europe was at that time. Europeans were on the verge of an extinction level event, mass epidemics, the Spanish Inquisition, and public sanitation was no bathing and pooping out of your window. The smell! The rats! DISGUSTING. And the new world were vibrant beautiful garden cities teeming with millions of citizens, masters of astronomy, medicine, and cultivating food. Astonishing science and sorcery. Like I said to you before, seek therapy and quit trolling.

[@jasonkinzie8835]

@@ufonomicon You are mentioning all of the bad things in European history and none of the good things. And you mentioned all of the good things about the pre-Columbian history of the Americas and none of the bad things. This is absurdly simplistic and black and white absolutist thinking. Makes me think you might be projecting the whole troll thing on to others.

[@jasonremy1627]

Ooh. Joe from Be Smart is hosting this now. Very cool!

[@GetSmartish]

I wanna hear Tony Robinson say "geophys"

[@georgenaugles5039]

I would like to see additional documentaries about this that show more artifacts

[@DemonSlayer_gotu]

“It was all about praying” yeah sure. It was all about hierarchy just like all societies.

[@marciasweezey7777]

Excellent!

[@danidejaneiro8378]

PBS is incredible. Thank you for your amazing work.

[@charlesbranscomb8493]

Pbs keep up all Europe's lies about my land

[@danidejaneiro8378]

@charlesbranscomb8493 - ok derp lol

[@karensargent3893]

Very interesting video.

[@walker1812]

Wish the video had been more about Cahokia and less about some of their possible descendants a thousand years later. Video was too short to have two different narratives.

[@kemikev]

There’s plenty of information available on KZbin and the internet

[@aunceter]

Nice learn a little more information about a place I've visited from across the river over the years!

[@georgesheffield1580]

Not the oldest 0:52 by a long shot . 🎉

[@georgesheffield1580]

This is also not the biggest or most important . American ego and ignorance promotion.

[@deannad.4334]

0:28 “…Cahokia the largest and most important ancient American city north of Mexico…”

[@adamdemirs3466]

Said in North America idiots

[@sosofishy8523]

So, Cahokia… stood the test of time. :) Also, this makes Civ7’s cultural transitions through the eras make so much more sense.

[@Court-fl8ck]

Where I grew up in St Peter's Missouri had to be part of this. I lived on old man Fry's farm by Harvester Elementary. We lived on the highest hill in the area. We use to find arrowheads all over the place whenever they tilled we would find more after heavy rains even more. In the creeks in the area. On the property was the oldest tree for miles around. Eleven neighbor kids and me my sister and brother could just touch fingertips circled around it. Great hunting and mushroom picking. Of course great farmland. Any tribe in the area would have controlled that area from that hilltop. It was a great place to grow up. Developers I hear destroyed it.

[@g.peterson7876]

Are there any creeks still there or farmland to look for arrowheads? I want to go look.

[@Court-fl8ck]

@g.peterson7876 it's been 50 years since I was last there. I think I would be unhappy if I saw it now. I heard developers got a hold of a lot of that land. Public records or even local maps would make it easy to locate. When I was a kid we would lay in the front yard at night and marvel at the Milky Way. If it was baseball season we could here the umps from over a mile away calling the game. Indians would have held that place in high regards.

[@johnreinking8742]

If the highest population estimates are correct, Cahokia was larger than any subsequent city in the United States until the 1780s, when Philadelphia's population grew beyond 40,000.

[@donovanjones4175]

This is fantastic to me. A Canadian boy. To heck with Egypt, this is way cool. Bring it on

[@ThaliaPeebles-eu7gn]

Wow, that is just plain amazing.