What Happened To Dungeon Items? (And How do We Get them Back?)

[@trizzgaylord7495]

as a wife myself, i can confirm gale boomerang did in fact steal me

[@cdfam6818]

Neat

[@EliasTheEstory]

Underrated comment

[@Silas_MN]

I think the part that gets overlooked a lot in these discussions is how the dungeon item recontextualizes your experience *outside* the dungeon. you walk out of the boss fight and almost immediately are reminded of things you've seen over and over that can use your new ability. open world style freedom to go where you want is nice, but having my relationship with the world change over the course of the game is so important to making zelda games feel like themselves. progress in botw and totk is largely a numbers game: better attack numbers, better defense numbers, better inventory numbers, better health and stamina numbers. dungeon items made me feel like I was really progressing and growing into the heroic role the game wants you to experience

[@Mossymushroomfrog18]

Walking around hyrule before Purah gave me the paraglider was so ASS that it made me so excited when I got it back, really shows how movement items especially change the game. If we got more items it’d be so fun travelling around hyrule in crazy ways. Imagine riding along a canyon wall on the spinner, then hookshotting to the other side and using your momentum to glide a crazy distance!

[@LegendofKal]

@Mossymushroomfrog18 this is the movement tech I crave!

[@redbloon_]

0:20 Zelda II was so good it got its own tier 🔥

[@badatdrawing5083]

I just miss the feeling of seeying a new area but being unable to access it and you come back later with a new item and you can finally explore that new area

[@novustalks7525]

Then play metroid

[@firenze6478]

@@novustalks7525we did. But it used to be called Zelda

[@aidenwallin3523]

Right, but too much and then people complain about backtracking. It needs to have a certain amount. Like Goldilocks.

[@firenze6478]

@@badatdrawing5083 can youtube stop erasing my comments about a Zelda game of all things!?

[@badatdrawing5083]

@ true !

[@thebestworst8002]

I really don't understand why the sages can't be used as dungeon items. The temples can be structured in a way where the sage gets captured when you enter the temple so you'll have to do the first half of the dungeon without them and unable to do anything that requires them. After defeating the mini boss, they come back and you can use their abilities to finish the dungeon. This structures the temples exactly like the old dungeons.

[@Roccondil]

The trick is trying to figure out how to implement items across dungeons. If done in the traditional linear style, you remove the player's open-world freedom. If done in the BotW/TotK style, you lose the awesomeness of being able to use ability/skill/item gained from other dungeons to help you access the cool new ability/skill/item. What would probably be best is to implement a system where you *can* get through without items, but if you have specific items, you can get through easier/quicker, or with some sort of advantage over the enemies, or with some new perspective on the area/dungeon.

[@thebestworst8002]

​@@Roccondil I feel that the modern approach of freedom for everything should straight up not be applied to dungeons. Dungeons relied on puzzles that built upon themselves. The point of them is that they feel cramped and uncomfortable but that just leads to immense satisfaction when those aha moments are found. The biggest highlights of BOTW to me were the great plateau, eventide island, and trial of the sword and I don't think it takes much thinking to find what those all have in common. Having everything removed from you feels awful at first but it allows the developers to make satisfying, tightly packed challenges that come from directly controlling what the player has access to at the moment. These moments also enhanced the rest of the game as it gives your freedom a purpose. My main issue with TOTK is that it was too scared to restrict the player even slightly. Other than proving grounds, the player has access to their entire inventory at all times and many challenges can easily be solved with a hover bike, attaching a rocket to your shield, or the combination of ultra hand + recall. When everything can be cheesed with the same solutions, nothing feels satisfying. I feel like going against the main design philosophy of the rest of the game would allow traditional dungeons to stick out. Freedom is fun but it's hard to value it if you don't have those moments where you're straight up stuck and need to think outside of the box to get out. The open world could remain untouched but the contrast between the freedom you have in the open world and the claustrophobia you'd get in dungeons would greatly benefit both and the game as a whole

[@Beakerbite]

I think what would be better is if the sages get their ability in the dungeons. And for ramping difficulty, the shrines in the region should prepare you for the temple. Essentially, I like what tears almost did. It made the game almost linear in how it's fed to you but if the player already knows the secret, they can skip forward as everything is already available. The dungeons could have entrance puzzles that force prior knowledge or clever thinking. If the player struggles, they can find answers in the shrines. In this way, the key items Link uses could be part of the regions instead of an entry tutorial island. Replays allow ultimate freedom.

[@greykamasz656]

So like the Spirit Temple and the Wind Temple in The Wind Waker?

[@Kruegernator123]

@@thebestworst8002 Trial of the Sword was my favorite part of Breath of the Wild. It was actually challenging.

[@catsuneniku]

This this this I miss dungeon items so badly, I love how steadily link grows in other entires. It used to feel like each new item was one step closer to becoming the hero you needed to be.

[@lozm4835]

I think this is a scenario where you really can have your cake and eat it too, though it might require having the next set of core powers be a little weaker. The Paraglider could serve as the blueprint for the next generation of Dungeon Items if it became one. After the Tears of the Wilds style opener giving your core power set, you're presented with the open world and a truly MASSIVE wilds-era megadungeon that, like Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks, you can access whenever, but can't really beat until the end of the game. This is because it's built like a Metroidvania map, almost. Consider it effectively like the Depths of this new game, on top of the open world. The main quest sends you to a series of classic linear dungeons where your core powers don't work super well where you pick up a dungeon item that, like the paraglider, opens up your movement abilities - the hookshot, the glider, heck even the spinner could work here. However, once you get out, you are able to come to realise that your core powers and the dungeon items can be used in concert in the open world and the megadungeon. The megadungeon containing more upgrades and linear segments that require more and more dungeon items. And the Open World, on top of having quests, also comes with something I'm truly shocked the Zelda team hasn't touched on: truly optional dungeons. Hidden, full dungeons not found in the course of the main quest that either contain even more new items or upgrades to those items or powers, that you hear about from quests but you need to find by exploring the open world thoroughly.

[@starkeeper_youtube]

wait hold on metroidvania zelda would go so hard

[@fluffy_tail4365]

yep, this would also help the problem of losing the exploration drive because what you can find is samey. Imagine if when you get to a ruin on an hill instead of just findiing a shrine at best you get an hidden dungeon with some meat and a fully optional item or mod for an item. I would gladly take a world half the size of botw for this

[@lozm4835]

Thinking more over the past couple days, the megadungeon probably can still use the terminals system. Both for the fans of that design, and because that makes more sense for a nonlinear dungeon you're exploring throughout the game. It's less repetitive, and really the light roots also fit the bill. Edit: scratch the below (keeping for context) - instead of shrines, this is where you pick up your health, stamina and maybe magic upgrades - dungeon items maybe using magic instead of stamina. The open world is about scavenging for resources, with more dangerous monster camps to then expend to gain stats increases in the megadungeon, and linear dungeon provide new and upgraded equipment! There's a loop there. Speaking of, the megadungeon should probably reward real good on resources, like arrows, rare weapons and stuff. To incentivise regularly returning to it, instead of ignoring it until you get all the items.

[@PedroBarbosaRoman]

Thank you for putting m thoughts into words, agree 100%!

[@MerabuHalcyon]

@@fluffy_tail4365 personally I would go for a world like a quarter the size of botw, tailored as a true Zelda Metroidvania. Plenty of freedom to explore but also gated just enough until you beat a classical dungeon to acquire a new item/power. Also none of this, oh hey go beat Ganon right from the start. Make me EARN the right to fight him...he's the endgame boss for a reason, you should HAVE to do all the dungeons and get all the new abilities in order to access his Castle/Cave/Megadungeon??? Pseudo-linear gameplay would at least make an open-world Zelda game FEEL like a Zelda game again...instead of a 60+ hour slog til you decide you've had or done enough (looking at you TotK)

[@F1reBeat]

"On this zelda tierlis-" *- Pauses video* *- Checks placement of a link to the past* Your goat status remains

[@dominiceriksson7867]

Check the other Tierlist in the Video. S Tier for Sky Keep? What a preposterous take, that is one of the worst dungeons in all of Zelda in my oppinion.

[@F1reBeat]

​@@dominiceriksson7867alright, might have to rethink her goat status

[@d3va383]

@@dominiceriksson7867 You sir are tripping balls

[@julien827]

@@dominiceriksson7867 sky keep is the best dungeon of all time there is no way anyone of value can hate it

[@dominiceriksson7867]

@@julien827 Hey, who allowed you to attack me personaly? I can have my opinion qnd you can have yours. That cant make me less valuebel and dosnt give you more. So please dont get personal here.

[@NittlesVids]

I think Echoes of Wisdom's tiered unlocks is the best way to balance freedom and progression going forward. EoW doesn't have dungeon items, but the goron, deku, and yeti segments can expect you to have knowledge and echoes from Hyrule Castle, which can expect you to have knowledge and echoes from the gerudo and zora segments. The game gets to have a good balance of both the freedom to go where you want and the progression of Zelda gaining new abilities (water block my beloved). If we were to see a traditional Zelda again, I'd much prefer this tiered unlock system to be combined with old school dungeon items to like, A Link Between Worlds' "any dungeon, any order, also you get the item before going in" setup. I think if you want to put dungeon items in the open world games, however, it's pretty easy to do by borrowing the ALBW formula. You can already fast travel to uncompleted shrines, if those shrines just had a sign out front saying, "Hey come back when you have the hookshot," it would work fine. It even makes sense from a lore perspective. The shrines aren't supposed to keep Link out forever, they're just supposed to test him. The sages/Rauru wants Link to be able to beat them.

[@klop4228]

I feel like some specific echoes functioned as Dungeon items in Echoes of Wisdom, too

[@vadoslink446]

I really didn't like how EoW essentially had two acts tbh. It made exploration really unrewarding when you go to Hebra early, only to find that some areas are weirdly empty or can't be interacted with. The freedom of movement in BotK feels like it was intentional, while in EoW, reaching those areas feels like an accident. Same goes for having to level up Tri to use powerful echoes. Defeating the Lynel early is really unsatisfying when you can't even use him until you're nearly done with the game.

[@NittlesVids]

@ I can definitely see that sure! I think that's a solveable problem, though. Like, imagine if each area had a more substantial sidequest or two in it, available at any time during the story. Something satisfying to complete and rewarding with something like a bomb bag upgrade or an optional but useful item. Exploring could be rewarding and the dungeons in those areas could still be made more complex.

[@liminal_clover]

Tears was my first Zelda game, I tackled the Gerudo region first and while I appreciate the ability to do this, I VASTLY prefer the more linear dungeons with puzzles that compound on each other great video snappy!

[@novastardust1200]

BRING BACK HOOKSHOTS! BRING BACK HOOKSHOTS!! .... i might just be obsessed with grappling hook mechanics

[@ja-melvinson7994]

It still baffles me that the hook shot wasn’t in Wild or Tears. The ability to fly and then zip around anywhere goes together like bread and whatever you put on bread!

[@drakejoshofficialyoutubech5569]

Nah you're not crazy, a hookshot or clawshot would be sick to mess around with in BotW or TotK. Honestly I hope they add items in the next game that can change how you approach certain challenges, even if they don't come in the form of dungeon items and are just a reward for a side quest or something like that. The Zora Armor is a good example of an item that already does this, I just wish that there was more like it.

[@EliMcQuaid]

same thing here, I ABSOLUTELY LOVED the links awakening catfishes maw dungeon and how you get hookshot and how awesome it is to use and how vital it is for progressing in the game. Tears and Wild just don't scratch that itch

[@jaredkhan8743]

If they did, it would have to be vastly superior than zonai devices to make it worth it. It would incredible if we had two hook shots and could attack on titan our way through hyrule lmaoo. Like shoots the first one, then bullet time, shoot the second, keep repeating the cycle. Idk something like that but it’d want it to be applicable in a vast part of the world, not a few isolated sections

[@redline4124]

@@ja-melvinson7994 The hook shot would be absolutely pointless in botw or totk, kind of like running or riding a horse. I mean you literally have cheat abilities...

[@AmeLem]

I think they could easily combine the open world of botk and some form of linearity. For example, the gerudo desert could be locked because you can't enter the sandstorm without voiding out (something similar to lost woods), and the only way to get through there was to use Tulin's ability. Before entering the desert, there could be a random rito npc flying up to you saying stuff like "It's pointless trying to go through there, you'll just get lost inside of the sandstorm. If you could somehow blow off the sand... the only person I know that could is Tulin [...]" Same with Death Mountain, instead of making fireproof elixirs you could be forced to for example use Sidon's ability to keep you protected from the fire, and the game could point to that as well somehow And the boss for the Zora, instead of being able to get damaged only by water, it could get only damaged by lightning while wet, giving the natural progression of Tulin -> Riju -> Sidon -> Yunobo while not locking the open world. You could go through the sandstorm if you wanted to with korok weapons or something, but it's so much easier with tulin. You could figure out a way not to get burned going to death mountain, but getting sidon's power is so much easier as well. You could defeat the Zora boss with shock and water arrows, but why bother if the powers make it much easier!! The shrines could be locked behind having those powers as well, since you can TELEPORT TO THEM. The magical voice inside the shrine could say smth like you're not prepared to deal with this challenge come back when you have the power of wind/lightning/water/fire The thunderhead isles could also require using all of the other sages' powers to unlock the way to the spirit temple it's really not that difficult and i'm real surprised that they DIDN'T figure out something with it

[@theoriginalWiREP]

I was thinking the same thing while watching this! Requiring some checkpoints before unlocking small parts of the map would help create new puzzles and difficulties while also keeping exploration fresh! If you're not able to visit one (or a few) parts of the huge wide open map, it only makes you more curious and eager to see what's ahead. I'm replaying TOTK right now and I haven't done a single sage dungeon yet, but I've already tackled a third of the Depths and I've finished a ton of shrines--exploration is my favorite part of these games, and creating some minor suspense/challenge (the lack of Tulin's ability has kicked my ass and I'm purposefully avoiding unlocking more weapon/bow/shield slots) is making this playthrough more enjoyable.

[@viiranen]

Problem is, we are talking about MASSIVE open world game. Imagine going to death mt first and be told you need zora magic. Then you go to zora and they tell you that you need gerudo and so on. Its disheartening to think about and very easy for people to drop the game at such point. People also dont like being told what to do in open world games. And nintendo SPECIFICALLY designed botw map to GUIDE PEOPLE in as many different directions as possible. The documentation on that is so interesting. The could be a smaller stop blocks before the dungeons, maybe an area away or so, but on opposite sides of the map is absolutely too far

[@Roccondil]

What I think would work is if they made it so you can get into or through the areas/dungeons without any items, but having the items will make some aspect easier or unlock a shortcut earlier than without it. For example, some of the loopback paths blocked by a gate after you pick up a key is unlocked by a lever on the key side, but if you have Tulin's ability you can access a ledge that allows you to spin a fan that opens the gate which allows you to sneak behind the enemies who didn't expect you to get behind their main-path-oriented defenses, thus making it a bit easier to access the room with the key. That would keep the linearity of the dungeon, but give players more freedom to get through the linear sequences and possibly do the dungeons in any order they choose.

[@sparkysheep]

I actually really like both approaches! I like the complexity of the puzzles that linear games let the devs build, but on the other hand if you get confused or stuck you’re just *screwed*. I think it was ocarina of time’s water temple I got stalled on as a kid, you needed to hit a lever in a different room to move the water in another one so you could progress, but there was no little cutscene that showed you what it did, just played the noise so me being a dumb kid I didn’t connect that that lever moved the other room’s water and I got SO LOST. Nowadays this would be less frustrating because I could always look it up and find a walkthrough instead of having to happen upon a game guide in a secondhand shop. With the open world if I get stuck or frustrated I can always drop a pin on the map to remember to come back and then leave and go do something else, and often times another shrine or just time away and relaxing instead of being frustrated means I figure out the solution to the puzzle I was stuck on. But you’re right that the puzzles aren’t as complex and involved, they usually center around a single ability and a particular use of that ability rather than forcing you to use every item in the game. But on the other hand I think the open world drives player ingenuity and creativity. I played both BOTW and TOTK *blind* blind. Like no trailers, no NOTHING beyond “there’s a new Zelda game”. I had zero clue about *anything* and it meant I took a unique path and developed my own solutions to problems. Sometimes they’re the intended ones that most players figure out, but sometimes it seems like my solutions were reasonably unique, I don’t see people doing them in videos or anything. And I *like* that ability to invent my own solution instead of being narrowly funneled into the Only Thing That Works by the linear game.

[@undeniablySomeGuy]

I'm seeing a lot of people saying that the reason why the recent zelda games are shaped the way that they are is because of the open world format... but plenty of open world games still have the player progress in their abilities as they go through the game. Horizon Zero Dawn starts with only a spear and bow, but through the game you unlock plenty of tools which make the main character more capable (getting my first tripcaster changed everything for me and made me love the game). A pretty major mechanic of taming beasts / controlling machines is unlocked later in the game. Yes, this will mean in some way content will be gated in my "open world" but I don't think that's a bad thing. It would just be a more metroidvania open world. I dont know anyone irl who bothered to clear every single shrine, and I don't think there's harm in gating some of them behind progression. What's the actual value in letting someone run straight to Ganon after the tutorial? Mostly it serves as a sort of fun second playthrough easter egg. Everyone I know has done it once, but it's not exactly peak Zelda. In context of the story, they had to make sure it could work either way: you're an ancient hero awakened from your slumber. In your first playthrough, you have a slow start where you're remembering your capabilities and growing in power through your experiences. In your speedrun Ganon playthrough, you wake up with vengeance in your heart - though your body is weakened by the slumber, your mind is just as sharp as you defeat Ganon like it's another Tuesday. Both of these are "intended" experiences, so both were accounted for in the structure of the story. You can't exactly have humble farmhand Link stumble into the big city then into killing Ganon. Even Minecraft has gated content. Want to explore End Cities? Kill the Dragon first. Want to kill the dragon? Explore the Nether first. Want to explore the Nether? Build a portal first. There are many ways for players to "unlock" those content gates which allow for a creative and open-world experience. Just because your game has an open structure doesn't mean **everything** needs to be accessible from the jump. I think that TotK could have functioned by starting the player off with Ultrahand to significantly open up the game, and the rest could be gathered throughout the experience. It doesn't work as much for BotW Link, since his abilities are weaker, imo. Another big loss which was unnecessary was no knowledge gating, either. Honestly, the blueprints from Yiga hideouts were a perfect format to have actual knowledge checkpoints. Maybe you came across a puzzle or location you didn't understand how to get through, but at some point you find a Yiga blueprint which puts stuff together in a way that is like a Dungeon Item for that puzzle.

[@maizislost]

That's what I'm thinking while reading the comments. I've played plenty of open world games that had slight restrictions, did it block my enjoyment of the game? Not at all! I feel that open world games have started to devolve into "restrictions = bad." BOTW was an incredible game to experience after playing some of the (albeit later entries) of Zelda games but Tears of the Kingdom, while I it love it to death, felt worse to play since I really missed the items and uses. Plus the unique dungeons that weren't "go here and get friend to do this" in breath of the wild was so much nicer. Though the TOTK forum has its benefits it really has drawbacks too.

[@LordPhilipJFry]

One of my all-time favorite games is Xenoblade Chronicles X, which is open world, but the world is very intentionally designed in a way that height matters a lot. By this, I mean that there are very obviously areas that are impossible to reach at the start of the game because you can't jump high enough to get to them (there's no climbing, only jumping). Once you progress the story more, you unlock the ability to pilot a mech suit. These can jump really high, giving you access to a bunch of areas that you couldn't reach before. But even then, there are still plenty of areas that are so high up that not even the mech suit can jump to them. Finally, near the end of the game, you get the ability to fly in your mech suit, and this finally allows you to visit every area in the world. This is a good example of how to make an open world game in which progression matters.

[@Redboots]

honestly? I think it was good that items weren't in botw, because shaking up the formula gives us, the players, time to miss that formula. at this point the abilities have become the new formula and bringing back the items would be shaking it up. it's like planting turnips or something to add nitrogen back into the soil

[@Maxawa0851]

Sure, but thats only assuming you plan to go back to the original again.

[@sintanan469]

The problem with BotW and TotK is you get all the tools right at the start. The champion powers, regardless of game, aren't tools needed to overcome dungeons or challenges. They're just toys to make things easier with no specific purpose.

[@Redboots]

@@sintanan469 exactly.

[@vadoslink446]

@@sintanan469 That's a good thing tbh. You get the necessary tools right at the start, with additional abilities being rewards that aren't exactly necessary, but still incredibly useful.

[@thatnerdygaywerewolf9559]

@@vadoslink446 Usefulness is debatable. Most of BotW’s Champion Abilities are just better versions of stuff you can already do, while TotK’s Sage Abilities are often finicky to use. And outside of those are typically just niche abilities, like waterfall climbing or a weaponless attack (Earthquake technique in TotK).

[@WikipediaLover94]

Would love a slower item progression in future open-world Zeldas. And we can already see the developers at Nintendo tryin this approach with Echoes of Wisdom. It probably will make the game feel much more like a classic Metroidvania game versus a classic Zelda-like, where certain feats can't be completed before certain items, but could still be cheesed through breaking the physics engine or just sheer determination.

[@TheRoboblaster]

As someone who played almost all of the Zelda games, and as a die-hard Metroid fan, I love having this massive inventory of cool but situational items to overcome challenges. Taking them away was novel, but I truly missed them. Here's hoping we get a return to form soon. But who knows... money talks after all.

[@eloujtimereaver4504]

Something I loved in Link to the Past, the big chest was not for the key, the key was for the chest, you always got to see the dungeon item chest before you got the dungeon item, and the suspense was palpable once you finally got your hands on the key and had to make your way back to the chest so you could get your hands on the item.

[@rebbeca5967]

I think the temples in TotK would benefit of something like this: Every temple has 5 terminals of sort. 1 wind activated, one lightning activated, 1 water activated, one Rock activated and 1 that needs a specific key item found in the Dungeon. Each terminal is MEANT to be activated with the respective sage ability, but a topaz/zap fruit/farosh part/electric monster part could replace Riju (same thing for Opals/chuchu jelly/splash fruits instead of Sidon, rocks of any sort instead of Yunobo, and a weapon that creates gusts of wind instead of Tulin). Maybe it would take powerfull items/more items to activate these terminals, forcing you to sacrifice items if you don't have the sage. That way, you will benefit from having the sage, but won't be stuck without them. Then, the spirit temple can have elemental puzzles and hyrule Castle can have that and a section that REQUIRES Mineru and thus there is linear progression in dungeons, but not enough to off-balance the open world.

[@huiminsiow02]

such a great vid, snappy! as a gamer who started the zelda franchise with BOTW, i could never put my finger on why the older games felt so different - but there was such a cool element when i would find a dungeon item like in SS or link's awakening! always excited to hear your take on things ❤️

[@neo_b]

honestly the next step in the future of the open-air games is if the dungeons themselves are condensed versions of the great plateau & great sky island, and their signature dungeons items can be used to do shortcuts or optional areas inside the other dungeons and a final/optional dungeon that requires all the items from previous dungeons to progress through it zelda’s own version of Elden Ring’s Legact Dungeons

[@Jonassoe]

You can actually beat the Forest, Water and Fire temples in OoT in any order you want, which shows that you can make an at least a semi-open dungeon order work great. You just need to have great dungeons. I think the semi-open structure is the way forward, and even EoW experimented with it. After the second act of the game starts, you can beat the three main dungeons in any order you want. They even made it so you didn't have to sit through the same cutscene multiple times!

[@Kruegernator123]

You definitely need to complete the Forest Temple first to get the Bow before you can fully complete the Fire Temple or Water Temple (not counting glitches or speedrunning cheeses).

[@CR-gh5bp]

Honestly my favourite Zelda item is the double clawshot. You spend most of the game with the clawshot by itself and then you get the second one and *that's* whay you're missing! Although, the Spinner is a close second for hilariousness. The boomerang from the DS games also has part of my heart.

[@Sunstreaker28]

I really wish they could include the hook shots. They weren’t really useful in the older games because of the linearity

[@LegendofKal]

This is why, out of all 4 games with the more open-ended nature, I still think A Link Between Worlds handled it the best. With Ravio renting items out to you, (and then buying them at a later point) it meant you had freedom to choose what to take, and subsequently, which dungeons to explore. Sure, it kinda removed the "Aha!" of traditional dungeons, but it still handled the puzzles well. Not to mention it still had items to find in the dungeons, although they served more as upgrades, but it was still something.

[@witchofcrows8311]

The biggest thing for me that makes me prefer Items over Powers is the Ah-Ha moment items give where as powers do not give them. With powers in the open world games you get them at the beginning thus all puzzles you find are almost guaranteed to be beatable so you just do it as you find it, Items however expect you to learn them in a useable manner but not necessarily master it to beat the dungeon and then allow you to use it outside the dungeon, this compounds with finding puzzles you see in the overworld but are unable to do thus you remember the puzzle. My Largest Ah-Ha moment was in a blind Links awakening randomizer run, I found a cave room where there was a long pit with a cracked rock at the other end with a normal rock behind it, at first I did not have bombs or the hookshot so I left but remembered the puzzle, once I found the Hookshot I knew that I could hit the one rock and get across the pit but needed to break the rock with a bomb, a smart player would note that you can reach a fenced off area near the rocks where you could throw a bomb from and thus clear the way. I was not a smart player but I did remember accidentally shooting a bomb arrow and thus knew I could shoot one and skip the other path and get my reward right away thus rewarding me for being creative with my Items and giving me the AH-HA. Items open up the world and re-contextualize things you see and experience by making you remember what you can not do, make the puzzle tantalizing and the item satisfying to get people to love and remember their items no matter how small or weird.

[@thatnerdygaywerewolf9559]

Personally I’d say frontloaded vs gradually obtained (or something to that effect), as opposed to powers vs items. Nothing about “powers” inherently indicates that you get them all at the beginning, and it is perfectly possible for a theoretical game to give you all your items at the beginning. BotW is actually an example of this, because the Runes all come from the Slate (an item) and your other major ability is the Paraglider (another item), both effectively given at the beginning of the game. Meanwhile the Champion Abilities (powers) are gradually obtained. Otherwise, I agree with the sentiment. Down with front loading our abilities at the beginning of the game! Bring back obtaining them over the course of the game!

[@gladius213]

thanks for vid, rubbing my face on the metrics like a cat

[@ja-melvinson7994]

Granted it is my favorite Zelda game, but I genuinely believe that the way to solve this problem would be to do something similar to A Link Between Worlds. You get dungeon items (granted from Ravio but that can be changed) and a primary dungeon where each will be most useful. It’s semi-open as a game, but there is still a dungeon where you get that aha!

[@Romidamn]

A new type of video by my favorite Zelda creator (who just so happens to have multiple fairy man-wives)? I'm in for it, my queen!

[@robuxyyyyyyyyyy4708]

Malewives, FYI

[@Romidamn]

@robuxyyyyyyyyyy4708 Oops, my bad, thanks for the heads up! No more malewives for me, I guess 😔

[@2shy2guy52]

I feel like breath/tears are kind of their own type of game. They aren’t like other Zelda games, and I don’t think they’re supposed to be. It would be nice if we kept getting both of the styles in future games, maybe alternating between them. They both have their strengths, but can’t exist in the same game.

[@puffton9782]

They definitely should have brought back dungeon items for echoes of wisdom, they could have designed the dungeons around specific echoes, instead they put said echoes in random caves, the worst offender is definitely the water block, which they put in the still world directly before any puzzles requiring the water block

[@mlemery69]

Here at 45 seconds since posted, it's a pleasure

[@PlagelKnigchenko]

As someone who literally grew up playing twilight princess and skyward sword (and also watching majora's mask), when I first played through breath of the wild I think my brain just forgot that I was playing a zelda game because of how different it all was. After playing tears of the kingdom I realised that man do I miss the old zelda, like this stuff's good but boy am I glad I grew up with that stuff instead.

[@Chesemiser]

Yeah I always caught myself thinking of it more in the same vein as the Elder Scrolls games moreso than Zelda.

[@vladi3862]

my favourite type is complex maze dungeons where you have many options to go, but all of them lead to to a dead end where you need a key or item, and only a few paths take you to the dungeon item or a key. like the water temple in OoT, jabu jabus belly in OoA or stone tower temple in MM. they're basically just build like metroidvania games and i love it. backtracking and opening new paths that you couldn't previously make dungeons challenging and satisfying to beat. i wish they would being back maze dungeons, but then people would just complain about difficulty like people complain about the water temple in OoT

[@iLiveInABin]

We have officially entered the nostalgic snappy era. Personally I enjoy the freedom of the open world games, but when you get a key item and you have that moment where you realise exactly what to do, and you understand previous puzzles you couldn’t solve, it’s just has that extra oomf in more linear titles. Also I really enjoy the video essay type content, can’t wait to see more!

[@SimplySnaps]

Thank you SO much!!! More nostalgic stuff to come

[@NottSaying]

twilight princess has the best dungeon items in any 3d zelda game ever and you can't change my mind

[@theStridingRebel]

I think Skyward Sword is the best with the Beetle and all the upgrades,

[@KingBowserLP]

Good take alert! But seriously, I loved the way prior zelda games' dungeons were structured, and i especially loved Twilight Princess' dungeons. Search the overworld, progress the story, get an item, figure out how to get into the dungeon, struggle, get item and open up the rest of it; rinse and repeat. It's a beloved formula for a reason, and after not having it around for almost 8 years, I think returning to it is the right choice.

[@colin5227]

Nice vid! I think it's neat to consider. there are a few errors in the subtitles I've noticed, like 7:02 "boss" should be "bow" and earlier, honeydew list should be honey-do list (unless that's a regional thing to spell it that way)

[@Hidden_Fern]

It’s fixed, or at least the boss -> bow

[@zapzapfishes5878]

You actually have quite much freedom in what order to tackle the adult dungeons in OoT, even if Navi heavily suggests what the next one is: Forest and Fire temples are interchangeable (Fire has a single eyeball switch that can easily be bypassed). Water Temple can be done at any time after beating Forest (and technically before if you really know what you are doing). It doesn't require anything from Fire at all. After beating these three, Shadow and Spirit temples are interchangeable as well. Also, I think A Link Between World had a good blueprint for a compromise with each of the Lorule dungeons hiding a secret optional item or upgrade somewhere. The dungeons in that game are bangers, with some of them even finding clever ways to recontextualise themselves after their halfway minibosses that don't rely on getting a new item.

[@lukerabon7925]

Ok, kinda tangential, but mentioning the tutorial shrines just reminded me: BotW the main tutorial shrine that isn't on the plateau is in Kakariko village, a place the game encourages you to head to early on. In TotK the tutorial shrines that aren't on the first big sky island are scattered all over the place with 0 indication of which ones are tutorials. I was deep into the game and some shrine wanted to teach me some mechanic and I was just struck thinking "I have been doing this for hours. Why wasn't this shrine somewhere I would actually expect a tutorial?" Edit: also, yeah, Tulin is the best dungeon reward in TotK. Followed distantly by Sidon if you have some Zora weapons with modifiers. Honestly, it would've been nice if the sage spirits were a separate upgrade from their abilities because the abilities would actually be *cooler* than BotW... If you could use them without the need to run over to the spirit mid-combat

[@atoucangirl]

tbh the best of both worlds would be to just use the Hollow knight style of progression, where you're always only softlocked in your current playground until you find the shiny new toy that gives you access to more. the way i'd imagine it in a ToTK style game is: oh no, what are those red glowing rocks and why are they blocking off this cave i wanted to explore? oh 20h later i have Yunobo's charge, time to see what lies beyond... holy shit it's a new dungeon!

[@Hummus_Yummus]

I'd like more bottles. Please may I have some?

[@atoucangirl]

i would argue the source of a lot of this is the physics engine. the open world Zeldas allow you to do so much in terms of mobility with the most basic of items that the dungeons CAN'T restrict you properly, unless they want everything to be a linear corridor. so many puzzles can be skipped because the player can bomb-jump, build structures, create updrafts to fly, fucking reverse time... those things are so essential to the rest of the game, but they really hurt the game designers' ability to make the dungeon item the main show, since you could probably beat the dungeon without them. what can you do with the ToTK companion abilities that you can't already do yourself with shit you picked off the ground? shoot lighning, check - gust of wind, you have floating platforms - blow up rocks, we have bombs - shield yourself, you just need enough health ig. i mean someone beat Wind temple without the Paraglider, hell you beat the entire Depths and every boss without it or any of the boss abilities. ultimately, giving the player so much freedom to control their environment and their own movement comes at the cost of not being able to restrict them within dungeons, except the arbitrary “take away your stuff“ shrines. you either have to accept that the player can break your dungeons and make the quest necessary in a boring way, or force them down a linear path, going completely against all the ways your game was supposed to be fun.

[@c0rrupt3dsidd]

btw fun fact for the awkward shimmy you gotta do for the sage abilities, if your sages are all off on their own battle during a camp raid or something, you can whistle and all sages stop and return to you

[@XionTyran]

I feel like the best 'middle ground' between the complete openness and linear dungeon order would be either several different dungeon 'chains' you can start in any order but completing one of the available dungeons unlocks a new one that can make use of the mechanics of the previous. eg: You can immediately access Dungeons A1, B1 and C1, completing one of them will unlock the 2nd in the chain. The other would be dungeon tiers. where you can tackle the dungeons in a tier in any order; and once you complete all of them it unlocks the second tier and each dungeon in the second tier can use item mechanics gained in the first tier. The big thing would be that you'd need more than just 4 dungeons to make it work well...

[@philiphunt-bull5817]

You are the first youtuber ive seen admit that the second clawshot is a cool as hell idea

[@Joseph125]

The way I see it, there are 2 obvious ways to address this - item requirements and knowledge requirements. Item requirements are obvious: there’s a sandstorm in gerudo desert that makes progress nigh impossible without some sort of goggles, a river that can’t be crossed with your current swimming ability, an npc that won’t let you past until you use the gale boomerang to steal back their wife. These can work to bring in an element of linearity, while also having the world feel open late in the game. The downside is that they make the game feel more closed early on, and can in some cases feel forced. Don’t lie, you would hate that gale boomerang npc. Knowledge requirements are far trickier to implement, but far more rewarding for players when you do. Have items with alternate uses, like shooting paintings with the bow in OoT’s forest temple. A painting on its own doesn’t exactly scream “shoot me,” and what helps the player realise they can is being told “you can do something with the bow to progress. Figure it out.” Locking an area behind something like shooting a painting might seem arbitrary, and if you stumble upon it then it seems weird. But after doing a dungeon based around this it becomes obvious and the map opens up. The advantage here is that you can give Link all the items at the start and someone on a 2nd playthrough can tackle the game out of order, but it’s a more linear experience for your first time through (or you feel smart if it’s a mechanic you can figure out). For this I’m taking inspiration from the disc in Animal Well, though obviously its hidden mechanic is a much better implementation than my bow suggestion.

[@Dualitymadness]

I think the best mix would be to scatter items across the open would that are locked behind side quests, unique mini dungens or in specific shops that you have to buy with rupees. Entering the dungen without that specific dungon item makes the dungen harder to traverse and secret rooms, upgrades and goodies you cant reach, but still being able to complete the dungen.

[@Nailbat.Aubrey]

8:30 "breath of the kingdom" had my dying lolol

[@RatchetAndClank14]

Me too

[@Romidamn]

My only problem with dungeon items is that they're relied upon so much in their dungeon that they basically spoil the solution to most puzzles. "Can't hit that switch? I'll probably have to use XXX." Sure, the way to use it may be new, but the tool to solve is obvious. With BOTW and TOTK, there's usually many more solutions that *could* be used to solve a puzzle. Overall, it'd be nice if dungeon items weren't quite as important in their respective dungeon, even if that makes them seem less useful at first.

[@spacefacecadet]

Not everything is a puzzle with a solution, though. If you get a lantern in a dark area, does it feel like spoiling the solution to the "it's dark" puzzle? Does getting a grappling hook spoil the solution to the "I can't get over there" puzzle? No. They're not puzzles, they're obstacles, and gaining a unique ability to traverse them is cool. Getting stronger incrementally is fun.

[@Romidamn]

@spacefacecadet I agree with you. I guess it's mostly the traversal "puzzles" that irk me in that way, as well as the new kinds of switches you use your bow or boomerang or whatever on. The way to solve them is straight-forward once you get the item, and that annoys me. But yeah, the puzzles with a tougher solution can be good even if you know what item to use

[@vadoslink446]

@@spacefacecadet Unfortunately you don't really get stronger. You just get glorified keys for very specific situations that become nearly worthless outside of their dungeons. If sages were easier to use, I think more people would actually recognize them as the proper way to handle progressive upgrades in an open world Zelda game. They ACTUALLY make you stronger, because they aren't made for specific situations. You can creatively make use of them throughout the entire experience. I can't say the same for something like the Spinner or Dominion Rod.

[@connormcnulty6377]

I feel like items only work when theyre all equal in terms of power (with some exceptions like Light Arrows in MM. They’re the last dungeon item, of course they’re going to be more powerful than everything else). The example I want to bring up in terms of an awful example of item balancing is Twilight Princess. In Twilight Princess, it’s an incredibly common complaint that items are only used for that dungeon, but it’s way worse than that. The spinner is situational, the Ball and Chain take over combat completely (even outclassing bombs in some situations), the Dominion Rod has to be recharged and even then only works in very specific spots in the world, and none of them feel as strong as the one statue in the Temple of Time. You don’t get a sword that does more damage than the Master Sword, something definitely noticeable since the enemies scale once you get the Master Sword. You also don’t get any upgrades to your wolf form after the first dungeon (and it happens before you enter). Combat can feel extremely dull as a result, making the Ball and Chain strategy even more of a standout, since it’s the only thing actually spicing up combat. One item overshadows every other item in the game. Need something blown up? Ball and Chain. Pushed? Ball and Chain. Need an enemy defeated? If they’re not armored, it’s the best option. If they’re ice, it’s the only option. It has the Aha moment… but only the double clawshots after it does, and entire dungeon and way too long quest afterwards. Compare it to Skyward Sword, where you never stop using your items. You don’t get the Bow, which outclasses the Slingshot, until your second visit to the third area. Even then, the Slingshot is still useful to stun enemies, since basically every enemy in the game can block your attacks. It’s nice and balanced, which you can’t say about all Zelda games.

[@MindOfFleet]

You explained my own sentiments extremely well in this video. Love that

[@LittleBeanGreen]

Definitely think there is a way to integrate this stuff. Take a page from Tears of the Wild and give us all our abilities at the beginning and dungeons tailored to a specific aspect of the physics engine from the free overworld that are contained in puzzle dungeons, ramp up our understanding of those physics by using the puzzles in the dungeon, reward us with an item to makes our ability to navigate the world easier/weirder. Take a page from Echoes of Wisdom and lock a subset of later game dungeons behind the earlier ones, then build on and combine those puzzles from the earlier dungeons with the enhanced navigational tools. Could be cool.

[@Emsilly]

Before this video my memory of the totk dungeons were basically "yeah they were pretty good" only to reach the conclusion that I only really remembered the bosses. Like outside of building a damn mech, most dungeons just kinda bled together. The gerudo temple superficially resembled a classic dungeon, all of them had neat aesthetics and the journey to reaching the dungeon practically felt like half of the dungeon (hell, the best part outside of some bosses) but what I remembered was just-- Flying through the air, Colgera's fight music blaring. Facing Queen Gibdo with minimal resources, using so many powers for marbled gohma, mucktorok... was there... The dungeons themselves just... weren't really interesting. Go to location, use power, repeat until boss. They were so practically inoffensive I just, forgot about them, and remembered the moment that felt like it was made with intent-- an intent I wish was given to the entire experience

[@Chesemiser]

This just made me realize that Skyrim kinda does this, albeit to a FAR lesser degree than the old Zeldas, but you where actualy gaining new skills, items, shouts, and so on and it had real dungeons with "puzzles..." it made the word feel like a world and the dungeons feel worthwhile. And the Beetle from Skyward Sword is my favorite item, I would LOVE to see it's return.

[@benvictim]

TBH I agree. I wish they did the "clover" style dungeon progression. It has freedom but it is more limited. You start with 3 dungeons. you can do them in any order. The dungeons however have "short cuts" if you have items from the other dungeons. So let's say a dungeon has 20 rooms. If you have a dungeon item from one dungeon, you can skip 2 keys and only viisit 15 rooms, and if you have both other dungeon items, you can skip over more keys and only visit 10 rooms. If you do dungeon A, you gain access to dungeon A1 and A2. If you do dungeon B, you gain access to B1 and B2, if you do dungeon C, you get access to dungeon C1 and C2. You can get to and complete B1 from doing A2 or B. ect ect. I call this the Clover method. As you start in the middle and then work your way out onto each leaf, with bridges inbetween each leaf. There is also something similar to ALttP or even echos of wisdom. Where you get a group of like 3 to 4 dungeons and you can do them in any order you want. Then afterwards story stuff happens and now you have access to 3 to 4 more. That way you still have freedom to do stuff in your bubble, but can't progress to the next bubble till you're done (and later dungeons can be made with you having all the items from the previous bubble in mind).

[@ZiptoZapto]

As someone who started with BotW and TotK before playing a linear game, that being TP, I have a different take. I didn't mind the dungeons in any of the games, though I can agree with the "they feel the same" take. I enjoyed about half of TP, but the part I had the biggest problem with was the exploration. I finished the game in a week. But since there was no quest log or ability to put pins on the map or anything like that, I'd find something cool or weird, say "oh I can't do this right now," leave, and then forget about it entirely and never return. Didn't help that I had little incentive to go back and do stuff due to getting all the health I needed from dungeons, and my wallet being almost constantly full because I forgot about Agatha until city in the sky. Heck, I remember I found a goron that wanted spring water, didn't know where to get said water, figured out where to get it later, but couldn't remember where the goron was. Then promptly forgot about it. Also traveling around Hyrule was annoying due to me never figuring out how to fix that one bridge. I think the most fun I had in the whole game was when I got completely lost and confused on how to progress the story, ended up at the fishing hole, and just fished there for two hours. That's another gripe I had with TP tbh, story progression being a little confusing sometimes. (Didn't help that I constantly forgot about mail, or the directions npc's gave, and then have to travel all the way back to ask them what they said again.) I love exploration the most, story and puzzles are fun, but I enjoy finding things on my own. And the lack of that really bogged down TP for me because I simply forgot about stuff I found while just trying to remember where the heck I'm supposed to go. Also I love the clawshots, but I hate both of the dungeons they came in. I still don't know how I found the boss key in city in the sky.

[@laurentst-denis3839]

I think A Link Between Worlds had a fine balance between an open world and the concept of dungeon items. They weren't "dungeon items" per se, but every item you could buy from Ravio was tied to a specific dungeon. That kept the dungeons feeling like Zelda dungeons while also allowing the player more freedom to explore. However, that means there is no continuity between dungeons.

[@hanelyp1]

- Multiple solutions to puzzles, some easier than others. - dungeons may allow partial progress, then require you to come back with a new item if you enter unprepared. You see this a LOT in randomizer play.

[@SamuelMcdonald-u8i]

In Wind Waker you have a companion in both the earth and wind temple, for example Mcar.

[@thatnerdygaywerewolf9559]

The difference is that TotK’s aren’t limited to one dungeon, but follow you everywhere on the overworld once you have them. (Also, Phantom’s Hourglass and Spirit Tracks have more examples of inside-dungeon companions).

[@joyridden1]

I always love the controlled chaos of your videos

[@TwilightWolf032]

The problem with Aonuma is that he likes to double down on designs that worked in the previous game to the point of detriment. While everyone was claiming for less linearity in Zelda, he gave us Skyward Sword, the MOST LINEAR AND RESTRICTIVE Zelda ever made. And when BoTW made success and everyone wanted a balance between it and TP, he made ToTK. I want to see Zelda return to the dungeon structure of OoT and TP, but also allow players to tackle the initial 3 or 4 dungeons in any order, and then have 3 or 4 more dungeons in the later half of the game that can also be tackled in any order but make full use of the items you acquired in the first half. It's all a balancing act that Aonuma has not been able to maintain because he likes to explore the ideas in the previous title to their fullest, even if players end up disliking the result the second time around.

[@Fenyx_Birb]

They could always do a semi-open world, where you start out with a mini open area and progressing through the story opens up an extra area to explore, so on and so forth. For example, Beating a dungeon in Zora's domain starts to make plants grow in the location which can be used to obtain items that allow you to explore extreme heated locations in death mountain, and beating a dungeon there grants Link access to blocked off caves (i dunno, marble rock was unbreakable and blocked of a good amount of caves there) which contain minerals to craft items that allow link to survive deadly cold temperatures. Maybe even during the tutorial island, you're given one ability/item that allows you explore one of the regions, and a path is formed from there where you can tackle each dungeon in a different order.

[@sintanan469]

I think you could do best of both worlds. Have your tutorial area that gives _basic_ open world tools that have limited use. Say bombs and glider. Have three beginner dungeons that give you the rest of your basic set of open world tools that can be tackled multiple ways but have a clear path through them with your basic tools and the dungeon-specific tool. The other basic tools provide advanced players shortcuts to bypass some puzzles so youre still rewarded regardless of the order you tackle the beginner dungeons. Then you have six or seven advanced dungeons with a specific dungeon tool you earn. The dungeons cannot be completed without that specific tool and some tricks using the basic tools you already mastered. These specific tools provide aha moments for side quests and mini-dungeons/shrines you came across but couldn't complete the first time around. These teach you complex tricks with your growing toolkit. Finally you have the big bad boss dungeon that combines everything you learned and played with. It gives you a moment to use everything you earned and learned in what amounts to a big linear playground. And then, if you want to have the whole items-wear-out thing so people use their consumables, have rusted/worn gear everywhere in your post-war Hyrule. The dungeon items don't wear out or break, though, so as you go further into the game you build a kit of items you can come to rely on --you grow beyond needing to scavenge. You're a hero with heroic tools.

[@Odd_Magus]

how I want them to bring back dungeon items, divide the game into acts all set in the open world. -act one consists of all the major key items and can be completed in any order as those dungeons only use the given item. it would be a good way to integrate ally stories. -intermission would be the minor key items like bombs, and special arrows or more utility focused items that can make later bosses easier, as well as key item upgrades -Act two is the big lore dungeons with each requiring 2 items to enter. -act 3 is the finale the clues to the items could be NPC's talking about some legend or gossiping about where another character got the ability to do whatever. leading around the world in a treasure hunt for the tools to save the world

[@michaelwilson5392]

I'd love for dungeon items to return in, if not an open world setting, at least a more freeing one. I liked the lack of linearity in echoes of wisdom, but I don't like that you get all of your skill set so easily. I will say I did start with botw as my first zelda, and I enjoyed it probably the most of the 5 I've played, but eow is up there too. Probably botw, eos, mm, totk, oot If I'm gonna be honest,I didn't like ocarina of time. It's missing a little bit of the freedom I want, so much so I actively went out to find it (I did water temple before fire temple), and while the dungeons were fun, there's nothing in between them to make the experience more interesting. I think there is a middle ground to be found, and I think a mix of letting you choose the dungeon order but specifically like eow where it's limited is the best, with items of all kinds all over the overworld, hopefully some that feel like they have a meaningful impact. Getting items in dungeons then helps that further, maybe makes the dungeon you did second easier etc, and allows you to not grab every item in the overworld all the time. I think that's the best solution personally

[@viiranen]

What about say having 8 major dungeons, which are paired up. Of the pair, one is a temple, the big one, and the other dungeon is the key dungeon, small one. The key dungeons can be finished whenever, but the temple dungeons need the key from their paired up key dungeon to finish. Preferably "you need to have XYZ, before progressing". Could be a way of implementing a skill or just a macguffin, depends on the execution. But the main points is we could have a little bit of difficulty scaling with that. The key dungeon could focus on teaching the thing while the temple dungeon demands mastery from you. Imo it would help with creating variance in the dungeons. Even if only a little.

[@saviorbob]

I think it would be neat to see the item renting system from Link between worlds come back. Would allow for more unique items and multiple items needed per dungeon

[@Chubby_Bub]

It's kind of ridiculous how the TotK dungeons give you the sages' powers, but almost all the puzzles can be done without them. You can even get there early and unlock the terminal but not be able to use it... they're basically glorified shrines. I hadn't really thought of that the newer dungeons themselves are using the same open-world approach as the game as a whole. But, and Echoes of Wisdom proves this, they could totally have an open world with linearly-structured dungeons. A lot of the shrines, particularly in BotW, provide this experience in a miniature way more than the dungeons themselves do. I also really like how EoW lets you do some dungeons in any order, but still has a progress gate for unlocking the next "set"- that also means later dungeons could still build on elements from earlier ones.

[@Chesemiser]

Yeah, for ages I've been saying that I hate that Skyrim manages to have better dungeons than the newest ZELDA games, like that is absolutely wild to me.

[@theone_WWW]

Personally, I think Megaman 11 had a great way of fixing the whole “lack of tangible growth” problem (this could be all MM games, but I’ve only played 11). The first level, or dungeon in this case, would give you an ability. You can start with any dungeon/level. This will make future dungeons/levels easier to navigate, maybe some sort of shortcut you can unlock with an ability, while not removing the unique features of each dungeon/level. As opposed to Megaman, you’d get the ability in the middle like Zelda and you need it for the dungeon. Boom! Nonlinear level system while maintaining a unique feature that can also help you in future contexts.

[@Mecceldorf]

Technically Yunobo, Sidon, and Tulin are as close as an open world Zelda get to having items, since they help trivialize other areas that a player may have to work around. That being said, they aren't games that players enjoy having an easy button for as opposed to a jet propelled homing laser drill catapult. Still, better having Revali's gale _without_ a cooldown.

[@janthehuman1679]

One thing they could do for the next open-world Zelda game is to make only some sections of the game linear. The dungeons themselves could have a bit more linearity, while the beginning and end of the game could also each be separated off like the Great Plateau and Great Sky Island were in BotW/TotK. It would be really fun to have a final dungeon in the game that used all the dungeon items from each dungeon, even if those items wouldn’t be necessary for any of the dungeons leading up to that point. Alternatively, they could take an approach akin to the choke point design of Dark Souls 1 and Elden Ring, where certain late-game sections of the map are locked behind finding one or more key items in the first half of the game. And then the game itself could open up again after those choke points. It kinda fits into a bit of the approach that TotK tried to do with its story, where you only really got access to the mid game dungeon content after completing the first few dungeons. Hopefully they iterate on that approach for the next game.

[@Chesemiser]

I was thinking they could take a pake out of The Elder Scrolls book and have actual storylines again that allows you to get info/items that allow you to go somewhere, fight something, get something, so on, I just feel like the world would feel far more real and immersive that way.

[@epicgamernoisesintensifies6238]

0:20 I have no idea which tier is highest on that list

[@luigi64fan]

Honestly i feel like the open world formula would work way better with a complete annihilation of shrines and focusing more on traditional dungeons. If it started with 2 or 3 dungeons to choose from at the start, with the items you get from the dungeons allowing to access to more dungeons, I think that could be perfect for an open world zelda. Allowing player choice on where to go, but also allowing solutions utilizing previous items.

[@Caitlin_TheGreat]

LoZ Wild Kingdom are among my two least favorite Zelda games. Breath of the Wild was find my first time through. I enjoyed bits of it pretty well, but the lack of any _real_ dungeons really hampered the experience, and the lack of dungeon items only made that stick out all the more. Even if it was just a few things you got. Maybe the first four not-Dungeons can give you one of 4 items/abilities, and be fairly self-contained. It'd be nice if they had actual puzzles in them and didn't feel like incomplete dev test areas you're bumbling through. But let's say each of the four give you an item and don't require the use of any of the other three -- except maybe for some option stuff or even an easier/quicker way to the end of the dungeon. Then you get a _second_ iteration of each dungeon and now they not only require the original item, but one of the others as well, _and_ dials up the challenge. Then you'd feel like some actual progress happened. Additionally, you can just go to Ganon immediately, sure. But if you got all the items, you can take an alternate path to get to him, allowing for a bigger fight and also a _better_ ending. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Of course that's just part of the issues fixed. The story of BotW and TotK were both really poorly done, because of the conceits given to the open world "who knows what order this will be done in" fashion of the game. That really does hurt the story because it's all semi-irrelevant flashbacks, nothing is _current_ with any of it. Which means the stakes never change or develop. I think it'd be better to do a semi-open world (if they feel they must do an open world at all). Have there be "gates" of advancement for the story, not unlike a lot of past Zelda games. You can do the "chapter one" dungeons/challenges in whatever order, then you do a dungeon/challenge/set-piece once those are done that builds on the individual pieces and advances the immediate story forward, changing the situation and leading to "part two" of the game, where you have another handful of dungeons/challenges that you can tackle in whatever order, then leading into the climactic story beat for part two, transitioning into the third part, the "end game" section. Either wrapping things up, doing some "optional" challenges/dungeons, and culminating in going off to take Ganon down. And the whole time you can ignore all this and tackle Ganon early at a major disadvantage (hopefully being a notably different encounter than if you fight him after doing all the things).

[@chilliad_emerald]

I’d love to see them do item progression similar to how metroidvanias do it. For example, Hollow Knight isn’t really open world by definition, but nails the sort of nonlinear feeling that these Zelda games also do. There’s nothing wrong with coming across a puzzle that you can’t do anything with yet in my opinion, because in that sort of game, you know it’ll be something you get later. In my eyes there’s really no reason this can’t get adapted to a true open world game like these.

[@michaellane5381]

Personally i think my favorite solution wouldn't be just getting progression "items" back but progression "dungeons" for example in BotW i would have loved seeing each region keep a "narrative" questline that starts after getting exploration item 1, which can be found in any one of 4 dungeons on the way outward from the tutorial or a smaller dungeon in each region, perhaps each duplicate copy being replaced by an outfit after acquisition or boosting efficiency of the item who knows, but each upgrade "path" following slightly different narrative villains and allowing entry to the next type of progression dungeon. The key to keeping Open world design would be "redundancy", then you could add say the hookshot in 4 dungeons, one offering a hookshot, another gifting the second, and the other 2 increasing the range of your chains, but you wouldn't need all of them or could even skip that kind of item for the final boss, but not to finish the 3 questline temples to solve regional problems.

[@emkerr90]

I wonder if Elden Ring could work as a partial model here. It's got a vast open world, but that world's regions are gated behind dungeons that return to the more tightly designed dungeon-style experiences of earlier Fromsoft games. A hypothetical future Zelda could have an open world, but have spots where opening up that world into a new region required passing through a more traditional Dungeon. That way, devs would know that any player tackling region C would have access to the key items from dungeons A and B, and could design challenges accordingly

[@X3n0nLP]

I totk's dungeons replaced the champions with items and were built more around their use I think that would help a lot. Then have two or three more dungeons that open up after you beat the first four and those can be late game dungeons that require all those tools.

[@canadaofficial8008]

Okay you get dungeon items back but the whole map is a completely straight line from dungeon to dungeon until you fight ganon/dorf

[@husklyman]

I really enjoyed the lack of items in botw and totk and wouldn't mind more zelda games like this. But yeah we need more dungeons and dungeon items items. The next zelda game must bring them back

[@andresmarrero8666]

There is value in linearity, it forces you to get creative with your set peices and designs. Zelda used to understand this until its creator decided he was bored of it. While fair it is perhaps better to make a new series of games instead of upending what made the last series work.

[@PrincessFelicie]

Items/Powerups are such a core part of not just the identity of the series, but its _genre_ that it's why to me, it feels like breath of the kingdom "aren't" Zelda games. They're excellent games, 10/10 experiences, and they have the Zelda name on it, but all it makes me want to say is "okay this is fun, but when's the sequel to skyward sword coming?". They're their own thing more than they are Zelda games.

[@PrincessFelicie]

I don't know if a "happy medium" is not just reachable, but a good idea to begin with. The open world BOTK structure and the dungeon items structure could turn out to be incompatible. So instead of merging the two, why not let them run in parallel? The existence of one shouldn't forbid the other from showing up as a separate entry in the series.

[@PrincessFelicie]

But at this point, is Aonuma even interested in making more dungeon item Zeldas? All interviews he's given since the start of the BOTK era point fairly definitively to "no"... As usual, we might need to turn to Indie games to get a fresh fix of stuff Nintendo has decided to leave by the wayside... or randomizers and romhacks, I guess.

[@kittykatinabag]

I do like having the linear dungeons and dungeon items, but you have to remember back before Breath of the Wild came out, this whole formula felt a bit boring. The puzzles became too easy and going into a new Zelda game, veteran players were already trained to look at the dungeon design and would immediately think that any puzzle they couldn't complete with their current equipment as "oh that's a puzzle I'll need the dungeon item for." Breath of the Wild really took this concept and turned it on its head. Sure there were easier solutions to some of the shrines, but man when you accidentally launched yourself with a bomb over the seemingly insurmountable wall and then paraglided to the end, that felt so awesome and got you thinking in a more creative way for the next shrine. That being said I do miss having dungeons build upon past experiences. It would be kind of cool to have a system where each of the main dungeons have a sort of iterative system where they changed based on what you've done before hand. This is probably way too much work to do when making a video game though.

[@Superbrit42]

After all the different analyses I’ve heard, this is the best. The main abilities should have been handed out at dungeons. The overworld is perfect, but the dungeons should have been made more focused on puzzles pertaining to a specific ability. I might try locking myself out from using each ability until progressing into the dungeons on my next play through. I wonder which abilities I should lock behind each dungeon

[@spacefacecadet]

I loved using the grappling hook in wind waker, and the skull hammer is such a cool design with unique monster kill animations. You know what game has insane items and a very open feeling map? Animal Well. The items are so cool I won't even spoil them. Nintendo should be taking notes.

[@vaerix0]

Like you, double clawshots But it's my experience in palworld with its grapple gun *and* glider combined that makes traversal so rewarding

[@UltaFlame]

Alright. Let me give you something. Bare with me and keep reading. You're playing a new legend of zelda game. You've loaded it up, Zelda's been kidnapped, darkness hits the land or whatever, Link gets put in tutorial island, you get your basic 4 powers. The glider gets put in your hand and you're off to explore a brand new hyrule. You pick a direction and run that way, and you find a well that's been bricked over. None of your tools let you get into the well, so you make a note of it and continue past it. You adventure, find a village, maybe get lost in some woods, and come across this big building. It gets added to your teleport list, you go inside. You can advance through some rooms, but no matter how you try to tackle the puzzles, your four powers don't let you get to the end by yourself. Okay, you say, making note of these strange looking notches on the ceilings and across holes. You eventually get bored of beating your head against a wall and head off again. You fight some bokoblins, pick up some weapons, find a second dungeon. And halfway through, you find a hookshot. Not only that, but with clever use of your four powers and the hookshot, you make your way to the end, beat the boss, get your macguffin and heart container, and immediately beeline it back to that house in the woods. Yes! That's what you were missing, the hookshot! And when you get there, you find the bombs as well, which lets you get into the well, which leads to another dungeon. Later on you find a pair of dungeons that require you to advance partially through one or the other before you can finish its complement, needing items from both to clear either dungeon. It's open world, but as you clear dungeons and make your way through Hyrule you get an ever expanding toolkit to tackle new problems. There's monsters that require items you don't start with to beat littered throughout the overworld, hiding points of interest or upgrade materials that you can get early by stealthing your way through or come back to. You explore and explore and sometimes you find new items hidden behind overworld boss encounters that are needed to beat some dungeons. Yes, you can get frustrated by the game keeping you from completing an area the first time you enter it, but - is that going to stay true? Metroidvanias have shown for decades that gamers will backtrack to puzzles once discovered but unable to be beaten when they get new tools. I don't see why this can't apply to an open world game. You can put challenges before the player that can't be immediately overcome with what you have 30 minutes out the gate and trust them to find the solution on their own. It wouldn't even need to be as pseudo-linear as I outlined here. Ultimately it'll probably have to come down to delineating each dungeon's relative difficulty by how many items not found inside it are required to beat it, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. You can also do fun things like having a portion of the map containing a dungeon be unaccessible until completing a separate dungeon finishes a quest that opens the path there, or what if Hyrule castle starts off as a peaceful place you can freely visit and walk around inside of until you trigger quest progression by unlocking a certain item that turns Hyrule castle into a dungeon? Your actions in the world should lead to tangible changes in the world state over the course of a playthrough, and that just doesn't feel like it happens in totk/botw. The games never have that walk out of the temple of time into the ruins of castle town moment. Closest we get is finishing totk's ruto quest and seeing the snow melt but that feels *hollow* by comparison. You never get outsmarted by ganon/dorf, Link and his allies never suffer setbacks during the course of events in a playthrough of botw or totk. While the player has control over link, things only ever get better for the citizens of hyrule, which is superficially thematic but really just makes for a flat story. Each dungeon completion in botw / totk only ever accomplishes a "hero triumphs over evil" moment that makes the climactic final fight have less tension. Clearing the 4 beasts means there's no gauntlet before ganon AND half his health bar gets punted. Clearing the 4 phenomenon means there's no gauntlet before ganondorf AND you have allies for one phase of his fight. Ganondorf feels toothless in totk because he never gets a win up on link. He consistently fails to stop link from getting his allies powered up and he is essily foiled in the castle when he tries ambushing link. What if botw 3: the return of the wild's revenge: the reckoning opened up without there being a massive threat at all. Let Link start off as a dumbass kid whose 4 powers aren't super special unique to him but something every adventurous kid in his town pick up. You can have access to his town, the 4 tutorial areas with the powers, a first dungeon with which to practice using them in tandem before link's told to go adventure beyond the village, where there's like 3 basic dungeons out there, one of which requires an item from another. And once all three or maybe only 2 of those are done, that's when the plot kicks into gear. You can have access to all of hyrule at this point, but the game can let you explore and get to know a hyrule at peace, with evil on the fringes. And it's only partway through the game that the big threatening ganon kidnapping zelda moment happens and hyrule gets plunged into danger and more dungeons just *appear* where they weren't before! Aaaaa

[@Tahsaray]

Getting new items and feeling the world open is a feeling I miss from the open world games.

[@SeaScutes]

8:33 ah yes, my favourite Zelda game, breath of the kingdom. Is truely a masterpiece (no hate)

[@winterwox]

yeah i also only leave tulin on lmao. sometimes i leave riju and sidon on too but yunobo makes my hoverbike fly sideways so he's only on when im going through a cave with breakable rock, and mineru is just too bulky. i only summon her to dupe items lol

[@zackchaozmaster]

both can work in 1 game. have roc's feather for hi jump roc's cape for double jump keeping the para glider, and stuff like the bracelets, and rings from older games work like that. just 1 weapon that won't break at all. boots, and gloves as its own options. oh yeah even if its just mini dungeons that have Items that don't break.

[@lukethephantomthief]

I really hope traditional 3D Zelda still has a place in the series. For as quality as they are, i don’t really want every new game to be another Breath of the Wild or Tears of the Kingdom but just trying to top the last one.

[@vadoslink446]

I think the traditional item formula has way too many drawbacks: - It spoils the solution to a lot of the puzzles and bosses, since you always know what to do. Got a bow? Well those eye balls on the wall (which for some weird reason don't respond to the hookshot) need to get shot by it. Got a bomb? Well those cracked walls don't explode by themselves. Got a Spinner? Tf do you think those rails on the walls are for? There is some slight varience in the things you do with these items, but generally speaking, the item design is too restrictive to allow for lots of variety. - This leads into the issue of their lacking utility. It sucks to get a new item, only to see it gathering dust after its respective dungeon. Compared to the items and abilities of the new games, the old ones kept designing items like glorified keys, instead of proper tools. You can't get creative with them and things that SHOULD work, don't (i.e. that eyeball switch that you simply can't activate with anything other than the bow). There's a reason why people like to post gameplay clips of the new games. You can actually experiment with your abilities and use them in tons of ways. - It neuters exploration due to the existence of item gates. Wind Waker is the perfect example of what would happen if you'd introduce dungeon items to the new formula. You have a gigantic world full of interesting things on the horizon that beg you to check them out, yet when you go there, you'll most likely bump into an item gate preventing you from entering the island. This not only means you've wasted your time traveling to the island, but also that'll spend even MORE time exploring it because you need to backtrack to it later. The proper way to deal with this situation would be to just finish all the dungeons first, but that goes against the nature of an open world. The linearity of the main quest clashes with the structure of the world and creates an awkward mess where the strength of either design philosophy doesn't get to shine. - This has less to do with the formula itself, but rather how Nintendo used it, but...they need to be more creative with items. I can only get a bow/bomb bag/boomerang/hookshot/gauntlets/special shield so many times before it gets boring....especially when they keep reusing puzzles too. Did you like those Double Clawshot peahat puzzles in TP's City in the Sky? Well you get to enjoy that exact puzzle again in the Sand Sea of SS. Did you like throwing the boomerang at targets in the right order to activate something? Then I hope you don't mind the DS games and TP reusing that same puzzle. Eyeball on wall in a game from 2011? Well, the game from 1998 already taught you how to do it. The new formula doesn't have any of these issues and I think a game like TotK still manages to reward you with new abilities throughout the entire game. I got my Paraglider after playing the game for 7 hours. It took me another 4 to get Autobuild. Several hours later I got my first sage ability, which, unlike traditional items, was CONSTANTLY in use throughout the rest of my journey. Then I did some sidequests to learn the Yiga Earthquake technique (it's weak but knocks enemies to the ground and kills fodder without wasting durability. Then I find some new Autobuild schematics to use for a multitude of different situations. Then I find a new Zonai device, which I can fuse to my shield to create a mirror shield for example etc. TotK was the best of both worlds for me. I was able to freely explore the world AND get new abilities constantly. That's how it should be in these games.

[@devssc]

Maybe this is a me problem, but hear me out: Classic Zelda dungeons had clear defined paths. You could see where you would be going next at pretty much all times - follow this path to that next door / climb that thing on the wall up to that platform / hookshot from one anchorpoint to the next / ... In the BOTW/TOTK dungeons, I don't think I reached a single terminal via the intended route, because I simply couldn't *see* it. For the most time I was just running in circles completely clueless, constantly opening the map to see if I got any closer to that marker until I somehow hackily climbed up/through/into wherever I was supposed to be. It never felt good, it felt like cheating, it felt like I unintentionally skipped the fun part. I felt really dumb because I couldn't figure out how it was supposed to be done and because the routes that I took were often pretty frustrating. Would love some input from others if I am the only one with that problem or not

[@brennanhayhurst5494]

Babe wake up. New SimplySnaps video just dropped

[@theman6422]

I kinda wish they did more stuff with the upgrades from BOTW. Things like the stasis lasting longer and being able to freeze enemies was a cool little upgrade and I wish it went further with other abilities too. I think if they wanted to keep messing with open world, they need to give the player the ability to expand that power they have. Let Link do what he did in the ganon fight in your Sky Only Challenge and rocket up from the ground with Ascend.

[@theman6422]

Either that or JUST GIVE ME A HOOKSHOT I LOVE THE HOOKSHOOOT WHY DO WE NOT HAVE A HOOKSHOT IN AN OPEN WORLD GAAAAAME

[@simonlalonde4136]

I'm not sure how I feel about it, because on one hand its fun IN dungeons, but outside of that, I hate seeing a bunch of bombable walls early and think to myself "damn, guess I'll have to come back". I guess I'm fine with or without?

[@Fishmen64]

I honestly just want dungeons to be longer than 15-30 minutes again