What Happened to Venger PLUS BoF Combat

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

Venger has been such a mainstay of the industry for years

[@RPGPundit]

True.

[@TheRedRoomChannel]

I've noticed it's not easy to move away from something once people got used to it. We covered almost every genre out there, but people always look at Wretched as the game where you play bastards, though we have tried to introduce changes that widen the options.

[@RPGPundit]

Well, if that is a problem you might try doing a new series of books that don't have the word "Wretched" in them.

[@juddgoswick2024]

@@RPGPundit That didn't work for "Men!" 😅 Their new horror game "Darker" is a good game without a wretched title.

[@RPGPundit]

@@juddgoswick2024 Men had its own issues

[@juddgoswick2024]

@@RPGPundit Yes it did.

[@TheRedRoomChannel]

@@juddgoswick2024 We'll have other non-Wretched titles after Darker.

[@dethangelsshadow1722]

Going to really miss seeing everyone together on IC... 😢

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share the video!

[@TheMaleRei]

Have to admit that when I saw "Venger" - I immediately thought of the old cartoon. Nonetheless, I stayed for the whole vid.

[@whangbar]

". . . your charisma modifier, because that determines whether god likes you or not." Shit. I just realized what my charisma modifier is in real life.

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share the video!

[@whangbar]

@@RPGPundit In this case, my worthy Pundit, I'm not sure I want to spread the word . . .

[@ultrium2000]

It does explain a lot of things!

[@destroso]

Someone said ‘never be the first person to something’ quoting David Bowie in one of your streams I believe. It’s the story of the Ramones doing it first and then Green Day cashing in. The one who makes it through the mainstream after the groundbreaking is never as good and always corporate shilling. Shadowdark is Green Day, venger is right.

[@VengerSatanis]

I think that theory has legs... or tentacles. Thanks, hoss!

[@RPGPundit]

I mean the Ramones still did pretty damn well for themselves without becoming sellouts.

[@destroso]

@@RPGPundit RAMONES sold over 2,301,810 albums, according to a quick search, Green Day 75,000,000 records, Dookie alone sold 20 million.

[@pscaglione3]

Bowie!!!!

[@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec]

I have not heard of any of this. This is sad. But my guess is he only did one type of thing ( Cthulhu × Gonzo × sexy , type D&D ). The Cthulhu × Gonzo is common with the big publishers. Paizo's Pathfinder & Starfinder have a lot of Gonzo & Cthulhu in it. He also has the problem of not regularly producing new stuff. He seems to produce something once every so often ( not on a regular cycle ). Also putting sexy into ttrpgs, does have a tendency to filter.

[@RPGPundit]

That's a very good additional point, about the sexual overtones of his products instantly turning off a significant market

[@VengerSatanis]

Yes, it's fair to say I created my own tesseract nesting-niche that became ever more concentrated until it was the epitome of what I wanted in an RPG. Fantastic for me, personally, but not so much for the bottom line. I'm fine with it. I compromise with a lot in life, but not this. My roleplaying experiences are sacrosanct.

[@OdaManjiro]

You're basically right that that was all he did of late. At one point he had some retro sci-fi with alpha-blue (which was very lewd and thus much filtration) and in the early days he did both sword & planet and weird sword & sorcery very well but his heart wasn't as in it.

[@ultrium2000]

Your Baptist of Fire book seems to be comfortable to Meatball.

[@RPGPundit]

Yes, she quite enjoys it

[@RoJoBBandG]

I hope he throws his hat into the ring again in some capacity. It's hard to guage what's going to really take off, especially when up against "Shiny New Thing" consumerism. But most of us do this stuff because it's what we love. It may not pay the bills for everyone, but even investing a bit of time into a pdf release gets you out there. And he's already got a lot of stuff he's made that he can be proud of. As you said, he coukd always branch out too. I don't think his creative well has gone dry by a longshot.

[@RPGPundit]

To be fair, you can count the number of indie/OSR guys who have a full time living off it on less than ten fingers.

[@gendor5199]

I think Venger had a problem of being niche, but not really great in those, I mostly read his gonzo space-hentai game, but at a similar time I also found a similar idea, and I just felt that whatever vengers book had, this other book had more, or better in my own tastes. I also never felt drawn to his other things like Chalt, so for me he never became someone to look into very deep. The king is dead, long live the king.

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share the video!

[@VengerSatanis]

If you took a poll of the top-5 deepest content creators within the OSR, I'd be in there. My creative process and the consciously willed results are like a quasi-religion... magic.

[@gzombie1]

I love Venger, he made a great impact on the hobby, he started some fights, pissed people off, took the arrows, and kept going! Far too many people are way too cowardly today! For me the take away from Venger is fight for what you love.

[@AndyReichert0]

thank you for making this video! i haven't played any OSR games before, but from what i've looked up, it looks like different editions of D&D all handled combat differently. I am glad this one is pretty simple.

[@RPGPundit]

Well, I hope you check it out!

[@AndyReichert0]

@@RPGPundit I have purchased the book, but I haven't made it all the way through it yet. I am really enjoying it so far.

[@toddzircher6168]

You need a Meatball sized box to put on your table. 🙂

[@patkelley8293]

I was flipping through Baptism of Fire with you. I also have Shadow Dark, OSE, White Box ect. But Baptism of Fire has this rich setting and realistic feel that is lacking elsewhere. I love the Slavic feel. Having spent an embarrassing amount of time studying Russian history, literature and language. (My Russian is still horrible) I haven't studied medieval Russia. Mostly the life and death of the last monarch and rise of Lenin, Stalin and the wholesale destruction of the Russian and Jewish people by self absorbed Marxist nutjobs. So much rich vibrant culture ruined and toppled by ignorant morons.

[@RPGPundit]

There isn't much of a medieval Russia. The center of Eastern Slavic power is Kiev and Novgorod until the Mongol hordes attack in the late 13th century. And it's practically the 16th century before anything really fully recovers.

[@patkelley8293]

@@RPGPundit I vaguely remember as much. Do you have any decent history book recommendations? I remember reading quite a few history books. I noticed each author had a particular take on how the history was presented. Even Tolstoy was criticized for his account of Napoleon's retreat.

[@jbyker2205]

Would love to see an authentic copper age rpgpundit creation

[@RPGPundit]

Maybe someday

[@ultrium2000]

That would be awesome! I would to see Heracles, Perseus from the 1982 Clash of the Titans, and I guess Kratos from the God of War games in a RPG book. I do not know if you could put Kratos in a book due to copyright. There lots of other stuff like the amazons, the Trojan War, and other Greek heroes.

[@juddgoswick2024]

@@ultrium2000 Try his "Lords of Olympus" from Precis intermedia. It is Greek Myth with a tweaked system from Amber.

[@jbyker2205]

@@ultrium2000 I’m thinking troglodytes. Crazy guys stuck in the stone age. Crazy guys wielding magic swords called bronze. And… maybe the very rare magical Neanderthal. Things like, my great great grandfather built that megalith and stories of the mammoth are still fresh. Be the human warrior, who’s story one day grows into the myths Heracles, and Perseus are based on. Even better be Otzi the iceman.

[@ultrium2000]

@@jbyker2205 That would be a good book also. There is a controversial theory about Neanderthals being an super predator that almost wipe early humans. I do not know if it is true or not, but would good idea for a RPG game. RPGPundit needs to start working on both books. :)

[@MaxFury75]

Definitely not an expert in marketing, but sometimes you can get into too much of a niche market. It's a good strategy to diversify and see what pops. Most important in business is marketing and strategic partnerships. The industry is in a weird place with a serious glut of products and games. Often, high-quality work can't get any traction unless it gets enough exposure or publicity. Best wishes to Venger and hope he can take a step back to refocus. Hope he can take things to a whole new level when inspiration strikes again.

[@RPGPundit]

You're right. And let's hope he does get new inspiration in the future. Spread the word, share the video!

[@dmcdraws]

Well this is very sad news. Always enjoyed the show and venger’s contributions

[@RPGPundit]

True. But there will be other things in the future.

[@Rajaat99]

I am definitely not spending as much money on rpg products, because of the economy.

[@RPGPundit]

I suspect that's true about a lot of people.

[@crapphone7744]

Sounds like Venger became The American Buggywhip Company. Who made the best buggy whips and dominated the market. The problem is people stop driving buggies and started driving cars. Gonzo was a pretty small niche to begin with and as time goes on people have moved on from it.

[@RoJoBBandG]

Except there's been at least three gonzo games I can think of on Kickstarter in the last year, and a couple of them smack so heavily of borrowing from Venger's works that if Venger was Wizards, those people would be slapped with cease and desists in a heartbeat. So.. the niche is alive and well, apparently. Even things like Inoi the Odd, UVG and Troika lean into gonzo.

[@crapphone7744]

@@RoJoBBandG you're clearly better informed about the Gonzo scene than I am. I really thought it had pretty much petered out. I was kind of judging by KZbin videos that I've been seeing lately about role-playing games and I have not seen much on Gonzo. Troika is about the last thing I can remember that even goes that direction, and the few things I watched about it, most of the people didn't seem too enthusiastic.

[@RPGPundit]

I think that Gonzo is a perennial genre, its just not as popular as mainstream fantasy.

[@crapphone7744]

@@RPGPundit that would seem to be the case. There are still a few people playing buggy whips as well. Both are kind of niche. It would be unrealistic to expect to have a success like Shadow dark in the Gonzo genre, and I think Venger feels like that he has worked long and hard which he has, only to see others succeed more quickly and more financially.

[@DeviousDungeonsPainting]

Venger chose a social/political side, which immediately lost half of his audience. He should have just done his thing and stayed out of it. No youtuber of any status would ever promote him. Blaming Shadowdark is hilarious, Kelsey keeps her opinions/beliefs to herself, and sells more books. WOTC has lost millions for the same reason.

[@RoJoBBandG]

Maybe, but I think it was pushback against so much that was being baked into the hobby and the bad behavior that was occurring His games themselves haven't really been too political. He's gotten hate just for showing sleaze in a lighthearted vein, which pales in comparison to what some people are putting out there. I'm not trying to make a martyr out of him, but at a time when people were being canceled from the RPG space and having their livelihoods threatened for even mentioning in passing what their beliefs were, his was one of the loudest voices in opposition of this behavior. And the other side was fine not just to lampoon but to attack, harass and downright terrorize. So in the end, I'm glad he existed and is who he is. I don't like to mix politics into my RPGs, but I'll be damned if I let it be a one-sided affair like everything else these days. We have jackasses telling us Gary Gygax was a woman-hater and all sorts of nonsense. Who is the counterpoint to all of this? At the end of the day, his stuff is good solid fun with bery little to do with the real workd except pop culture references. Frankly, we need more of that in the space. I don't think Venger was knocking Shadowdark or its creator, but rather the "shiny new thing" mentality among the community. Some utter crap has done well chiefly due to internet hype when there's so much out there. If what you say is true, it's unfortunate that he had to bear the brunt of this when so many people feel the same way. Cha'alt may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he does gonzo well. Even now, there are people mimicking what he's done and touting it as groundbreaking stuff. Like everything else, I hope people take the time to explore the worlds of RPG makers who have been there and done that already.

[@DeviousDungeonsPainting]

@@RoJoBBandG I absolutely respect him for standing up for what he believes in. But he went full on antagonistic, and I am sure that it hurt his sales in the end.

[@AnonAdderlan]

@@RoJoBBandGAre you kidding? Most of his games are politically reactionary and sold on that basis. Apparently that’s not a sustainable tactic without something else behind it.

[@DeviousDungeonsPainting]

@@AnonAdderlan Exactly, the dude shat in his own saddle and is suffering the consequences.

[@RPGPundit]

You're not wrong. But I think that part of the problem is that Venger infused his politics into his games. I'm very political too, and everyone knows that, but my products are not overtly political in any way. I don't write games or adventures to send some kind of contemporary political message (except maybe "history and myth are cool"). Also, I think that the overt sexuality in his games may have turned off more people (or more people that might otherwise have been likely to be his customers) than his politics.

[@crapphone7744]

People just over complicate this stuff. ShadowDark was the right product at exactly the right moment. That got it into the spotlight. Kelsey Dion created a great game that appealed to a large number of osr and osr adjacent people. It was also well marketed over KZbin and other social media so many tourist types also purchased it. None of that takes away from the fact that she designed a good game and has tons of other equally good content. The success of that product and others like it does not take away from other people if they have a product that appeals to the market as well.

[@RPGPundit]

Shadowdark certainly seems like a more functional game than most of the other post-OGL games by youtubers and celebs.

[@boomerzoomerfigureitout3806]

am a artisanal woodworker in Canada, similar situation. The lockdowns and inflation is killing small business. I know way more people that deleted themselves because of lockdowns then died from covid

[@RPGPundit]

That's heavy, but I am not surprised.

[@solomani-42]

I had no idea. Bugger. I make about 300/month but the only thing I do is publish my conversions from my campaigns to 5e and OSE. It’s purely monetizing my hobby and stuff I am already doing. And that includes the 50% cut from drive thru. All hobby money for me. I think chalte is niche. I’ve only bought one or two things from venger and never backed a KS. While I’ve bought plenty from you because it fits my taste better. /shrug.

[@RPGPundit]

Yeah honestly I was shocked at how little he was selling.

[@paulcooper6048]

BoF: Finally, a game where I feel included and represented. A game for Straight, white people of Polish ancestry. Stunning and brave.🤣🤣🤣

[@RPGPundit]

You forgot 'christians'.

[@scepticskeptic3794]

Venger was always a one-trick pony, imo. I thought Alpha Blue had a lot of potential, but it was ultimately juvenile with that sexual fetish stuff. Chalt was very niche. Definitely not my cup of tea, too silly at the end of the day, for my taste. That said, a there is an audience for it. However, specialising in one gonzo setting is always going to have diminishing returns. I mean, how many Chalt books does anyone really want or need? And it appeared that he only ever wanted to work on that. Thus, his work lacked in other areas. Also, he never finishes anything. Or that is to say, most of his stuff feels like he just got bored after the initial concept was done. For example, Blood, Dark Thirst could have been a great game, but there’s a lot missing regarding mechanics, setting, or character growth. So it’s only good for one shots, IMO. I think he has some good concepts for horror. But because of his lack of follow through, everything feels very 2 dimensional. Again, just my two-cents.

[@RPGPundit]

Interesting analysis!

[@scepticskeptic3794]

@@RPGPundit Cheers... Shame about IC tho'. Would you ever get another co-host, Pundit?

[@VengerSatanis]

You're right about that one product in particular. After writing Blood Dark Thirst, I realized I just didn't have supplemental work in me. But I do follow through when it engages my creativity.

[@scepticskeptic3794]

@@VengerSatanis You certainly followed through with Chalt to be fair (nice production value as well). Just not my style of gaming... I think you were on to something with your light mechanics, but there seemed to be a lack of focus and detail for longevity, IMO. I think Alpha Blue and B.D.T. had the most potential. AB was hobbled by the controversy, which is unfortunate as it’s a good piece of work.

[@VengerSatanis]

@@scepticskeptic3794 My wife constantly nagged me about quitting Alpha Blue, which really bummed me out and a lot of my supporters at the time, is the reason I stopped that product line. However, I'm glad she did because if she hadn't (soft) forced me to stop making content for Alpha Blue, I might never have forged the fuchsia and chartreuse blade that is Cha'alt... it's where my heart truly lies. Also, unfortunately, "it's just not my style of gaming" is the continual refrain heard from most people about my Cha'alt work. And that's why my audience dwindled to the point where it was unsustainable. Regarding Blood Dark Thirst, if I had to do it over again, I might approach it as a 5-page micro RPG that included rules for facilitating humorous play, like What We Do In The Shadows. That would have been more fun, and I could probably have come up with supplemental content that didn't feel like I was just ripping off Vampire: The Masquerade.

[@heymitch100]

I do like Venger's Cha'alt books, but referring to Kelsey Dionne as a tourist (assuming those are his words and not yours) really seems kind of petty.

[@RPGPundit]

it was from his resignation. And I think his complaint can be understood to refer to the overt commercialization and "influencer-driven marketing" of shadowdark, given that Venger says " the current necessity of slick marketing campaigns anointed by establishment approved KZbinrs".

[@VengerSatanis]

I never said the ShadowDark creator was a tourist. She's not. We're from the same area, and she worked at the RPG store I used to shop at. My complaint of tourists referred to all the newcomers brought in by Critical Role, etc.

[@RPGPundit]

Yes, that's how I read it in your goodbye blog entry.

[@JabsJibo]

"Tourists" are customers. Blaming them for your decline is dumb.

[@crapphone7744]

This better be a year where you can buy tuna. I noticed meatball has decided that she needs more close oversight of your content.

[@RPGPundit]

Meatball is still getting tuna, thanks to everyone's generous Superchats

[@nomoremaybes]

Quitters never win 🥲

[@MogofWar]

Taking a break is better than dying of a heart attack. Fabian tactics are valid.

[@BobMcDowell]

As a Christian who lived through the loss of friends over D&D I couldn't see myself ever really supporting someone who would name himself after Satan. All that time I spent telling people the game isn't devil worship, and here's this guy's chosen last name...

[@RPGPundit]

Yeah, he did a few things that probably hurt him with some people that might otherwise have been his core market.

[@paulcooper6048]

There is a huge difference between “pretend evil “ and Real Evil. We Christians need to know the difference so we can focus on dealing with Real Evil instead of being distracted by “pretend “ nonsense.

[@sirellyn]

@@paulcooper6048 You'll know them by their fruits?

[@sageofsorceryproductions2576]

Ayep! I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I ADORE D&D. I find Venger’s personal beliefs, language, and name positively abhorrent. That said, in every interaction I had with him, he was kind and respectful. He loves his family. I think he’s just an overall nice dude in maybe an unfortunate packaging. I wish him well.

[@sadwingsraging3044]

DriveThru being weak cnuts didn't help Venger at all.

[@nad3936]

This video is more you bragging about your relative success than talking about Venger.

[@RPGPundit]

Well, comparatively, it's an attempt to assess, mainly for other people who are trying to make commercial RPG products, what happened. Why did things go worse for Venger? I wouldn't say its really bragging, because I certainly didn't have some kind of special business strategy, nor did he. We both wrote stuff we wanted to, but the differences in the things we wanted to write about may have lessons for people in terms of what to do or to avoid.