What Happens When A Plane’s Windscreen White’s Out… | Air New Zealand 901

View the Original Accident Report here -
www.fss.aero/accident-reports...
View the Mahon Report here - www.erebus.co.nz/Investigatio...
/ 3greens
CREDITS
Voice Actors
Alex Roussos - First Officer, Captain, McMurdo ATC
Jon Hogan - Flight Engineer, Peter Mulgrew
Simulator Footage
Microsoft Flight Simulator 10
DC-10-30 by Thomas Ruth
Air New Zealand Livery Paint by Michael Pearson.

[@lloydpreston3602]

I lost a truly wonderful, beautiful and loving girl who was an air hostess on that flight - not even rostered to be on the flight, she stepped in when the rostered girl pulled out. Every day since then I have lamented her passing - what a terrible way to die.

[@nm7sp]

Hi Lloyd, I don't know anything about such things, but I suspect that the passengers and flight attendants on this flight may not have had much, if any, warning about what was about to happen, and the end would have been very quick and probably painless. One can only hope.

[@dianewalker4633]

@@nm7sp You are right. It would have been over in a split second. They wouldn't have known anything about it. I find that thought comforting.

[@davidroscoe3815]

Both myself and my wife were long hall Air NZ cabin crew for 8 years. My wife's father was a travel agent at the time and supposed to be on this flight, he gave his place up to a friend. So sorry for your tragic loss Lloyd.

[@satilliteaerialview5337]

I was booked to take this flight with some family members. . I had 3 cousins in Auckland who asked if I wanted to go on this flight (they had a spare ticket) and I said yes. I was based in Sydney and would fly across to Auckland and meet up with them. I was flying across to Auckland as Qantas staff but for some reason I cancelled at the last minute so this has very significant meaning for me.

[@mandyellis876]

That must’ve been very distressing for you. I’m sorry for your loss.

[@yecyec3927]

STOP LYING, NOBODY LIKES FIBBERS.

[@hayleyxyz]

@@yecyec3927 oh shut up

[@427SuperSnake1]

Ya and I was scheduled to be on the Challenger flight, but I cancelled last minute..

[@PeterShieldsukcatstripey]

Stewth. Thanks for sharing that.

[@suehowie152]

As a Kiwi, I sat up all night glued to the TV,not believing all could have perished..But they had..😢

[@si_vis_amari_ama]

The fact that the captain said "NO" to a suggested right turn indicates his gut feeling about positional uncertainty, it was not just the F/E that was uncomfortable.

[@turricanedtc3764]

That doesn't make sense. The claim Chippindale made was that the F/E was concerned about terrain ahead. The balance of the evidence suggests that Collins and Cassin were briefed on a route down McMurdo Sound, which consists of flat sea ice with high ground (cliffs) to the left and right. Collins' "negative" reply to Cassin's suggestion of a right turn supports this hypothesis because Collins believed that the high ground on either side was a more immediate concern than the terrain directly ahead. The crew were in sector whiteout ahead, and Cassin's body was blocking Collins' view to the right, which is by far the most logical reason for Collins' not accepting the suggestion.

[@eucliduschaumeau8813]

I've watched hours about this crash and this video still made me aware of at least three critical things that other videos had not mentioned. I have a new favorite channel now. Great work.

[@Greg-yu4ij]

Yeah, this one was the only one that made any sense. The bottom line is that pilots should never over fly Antarctica without a transponder and without flight control aware of their flight path and tracking their flight path with their radar. Even with GPS you need an air traffic controller to verify you maintain course And that course is consistent with your flight plan

[@dianewalker4633]

If you are interested in this particular accident then I recommend you read "Daughters of Erebus" by Paul Holmes. There is a kindle version if you have a kindle. It's an extremely interesting read and a thoroughly well researched book. I've just finished reading it. Like you I have also watched many hours of documentaries etc about the crash.

[@internetcensure5849]

@@dianewalker4633 Do you understand anything about aeronautics?🤣

[@internetcensure5849]

@@Greg-yu4ij 🤣

[@dianewalker4633]

@@internetcensure5849 I understand this particular accident extremely well. I remember it and I know what happened. Perhaps if you did some research into this particular case yourself you would not be so patronising towards those who have looked deeply into it.

[@nenblom]

May the passengers and crew of Air New Zealand flight 901 RIP. :( :(

[@jamestaylor8908]

Ok I’ll bite. You say “As Ross Island and the gigantic Mt Erebus come into view, it’s already too late to take evasive action”. They never came into view. The guys on the flight deck probably never saw anything. In fact the only warning the prompted the call for go around power was the GPWS (sadly EGPWS did not exist back then). Interestingly it also wasn’t too late for avoidance, simulator reconstructions showed that had the pilots pulled up aggressively on the first warning they would have cleared the mountain (discounts startle factor obviously). The whole point of the whiteout ILLUSION was that it makes it appear as though you are flying over an expanse of flat sea ice as far as the eye can see. Add to the fact that they could see features to each side of the aircraft and were trying to ascertain their position you can see that they didn’t consider themselves to be in IMC. There used to exist on KZbin footage from inside the aircraft at the moment of impact. Haunting stuff. The passengers are all looking outside and taking photos. Thankfully there was no fear as there wasn’t the slightest indication what was about to happen. When I read the transcript I don’t see a cowboy crew, I see competent men mislead by confirmation bias and a visual illusion. Ask yourself why a cowboy crew would choose to maintain VMC on descent so rigidly if they were planning to break it in the future. MSA only applies when not flying visually. I saw another comment regarding INS not being fit for terrain separation purposes, again this is irrelevant in VMC. The crew believed they were flying over sea ice. The great tragedy to me is that these guys only needed about a minute more to get out of this situation. It’s also a shame that they missed the clues such as the line-of-sight cause of the VHF and transponder issues due to Mt Erebus being between them and McMurdo (transponder in STBY was probably done after troubleshooting). I can’t speak for the 6000ft CAVOK limit, as that would be airline policy. All I know is as an airline pilot myself I could easily have ended up exactly as these guys did. I also think it’s worth mentioning that Air NZ behaved appallingly after the accident with respect to the pilot’s families and giving evidence (as Mahon famously said “an orchestrated litany of lies”). I believe your content is very professional and hope you keep it up. This crash is particularly contentious. However I couldn’t sleep tonight without defending these men who can no longer defend themselves. RIP to everyone involved.

[@3Greens]

Thanks for the insightful comment. Very well written. After making quite a few videos now, this is still the crash I'm most interested in. Mostly because of how almost every issue has multiple layers to it. I agree that this was a highly contentious crash with lots of controversy surrounding it. The pilots were in no way the "cowboys" that especially the original report made them out to be.

[@F_Tim1961]

The original crews were briefed never below 16 500 ASL before you get to Erebus. After that descent to 6000 FT in VMC is approved. The problem was that his was not enforced and in later year briefings some of it was never mentioned. The whole thing is a lot more complex than that. The Chief of Nav ( Hewitt ) in Head Off cocked up but they way he described it was false and scripted. He was never charged with manslaughter. Nobody at Air Nz was ever charged with breaking any law at all. THey all left with gold watches. .... what a crock...

[@rmooreg]

This was in no way the pilots fault. Air New Zealand changed the flight plan and entered the new navigational points into the computer the night before the flight without informing the crew. This took the planes path from down the center of McMurdo Sound , laterally 26 miles to an overland route directly at Mt. Erebus. The crew had no way to know they weren't over the bay, and conditions didn't allow any visual references to alert them. The airline still tried to blame it on the crew. Fortunately the investigation exposed their coverup.

[@si_vis_amari_ama]

@@rmooreg They messed up the transponder mode. That could have saved them. So sad.

[@F_Tim1961]

@@3Greens There is a photo of Beaufort Island taken by one dead passenger and recovered from a camera and developed post crash. Beaufort IS is off to the R or Starboard of the aircraft when this was taken. It is the only black volcanic island near the aircraft's track. I can send you a copy of this b y email if you provide and an address. The point of the photo is that is shows that the aircrew were not monitoring their track over ground against charts at the time or were distracted. From the time that Beaufort was sighted until they were almost inevitably going to crash was only 8 to ten minutes. Beaufort is shown on the mini map you provide with your Yt video. TEF

[@andyeaston8391]

A terrible tragedy. As a NZ born citizen, I felt that there was hardly anyone in NZ who did not know someone affected by this crash. My Professor's widow perished in the crash. She had been encouraged to make the flight by a Victoria University Geology Professor who enthused that it was "a trip to the end of the world". Sadly, his comment was prophetic.

[@martintheiss4038]

Sadly enough in New Zealand an 85 percent DC 10 is quite a large number of people as a percentage of the population. The US Ambassador to the Netherlands for example made public an estimate that the MH shoot down by Russian partisans was approximately the equivulent per capita of 3000 American citizens.

[@geoffreyhall8594]

A close family friend worked for Air NZ at the time. She purchased a ticket on this flight for her husband as a birthday present. Took years to come to grips with it all.

[@427SuperSnake1]

Wouldn’t it have been a trip to the bottom of the world, not the end of the world…

[@rmooreg]

The Air New Zealand navigation dept. changed the flight plan the night before the doomed flight, and entered the info. into the planes computer without telling the crew. The change altered the planes path laterally by 26 miles , from flying straight down the center of McMurdo sound, which is sea level, to flying straight at Mt. Erebus , an elevation of approx.13,000 ft. The crew had no way of knowing this since they were not told of the change, and, because of the weather conditions, could not see the horizon or the terrain below. This was Air New Zealand's blunder, NOT pilot error.

[@joedennehy386]

100 % correct

[@janlipski5215]

Exactly right Richard. Justice Mahon knew this but was discredited and undermined by the nz government and air nz executives.

[@rmooreg]

@@janlipski5215 Yes, it was awful what the NZ government did to him. Attempted to riin his reputation and voiding most of the violations or reducing the fines and sanctions that had been levied against Air New Zealand. Cozying up to a company who showed the justice system nothing but contempt, to avoid embarrassment. They should have confirmed all the findings and impose all the recommended punishments. And to add (well deserved) insult to injury, they should have banned the airline from using the name New Zealand. Remove any assumed association (and consequent embarrassment) with government moving forward. Instead they chose the standard toadying to industry and special interest. That's what should really embarrass the.

[@josephconnor2310]

Yes, tragic

[@vkrgfan]

Corruption is the worst in aviation.

[@ian9574]

I've been in whiteouts while up on the mountain skiing, and I can attest that even at ground level it's super disorienting not being able to tell the sky from the ground, and having no landmarks to reference. I can only imagine trying to fly a jet through those conditions

[@KiwiSentinel]

they experienced sector whiteout. They could see the sea below but where the mountain was appeared to be flat horizon. Due to unadvised course change they thought the were flying down MacMurdo Sound and what they saw tended to confirm this. None of the cockpit crew had flown here before. They were not alarmed until just before the GPWS went off.

[@pobinr]

Foolish descending below the height of the mountain without being 100% sure they weren't near the mountain & not heading towards the mountain🤔🙄

[@KiwiSentinel]

@@pobinr they were not fools. They had VMC at all times. As far as they knew they were heading down MacMurdo Sound. When they became less than 100% sure they took action. Have read of the CVR transcripts.

[@kemwilson2046]

@@KiwiSentinel a A lion does not acknowledge the opinions of fools!

[@dianewalker4633]

@@pobinr They had no reason to think they were near the mountain as their pre flight briefing indicated to the captain that they would be flying through the safe, flat McMurdo Sound. However, unknown to any of the crew the coordinates to the flight were changed only hours prior to the flight and none of the crew were told of that change. The change programmed the plane straight onto a collision course into the mountain. Fools they were NOT.

[@billsee476]

my dad was a medical officer in the air force and was able to examine the bodies that were transported back to Auckland's Hobsonville airbase. in his opinion some of the bodies showed no injuries at all and suggested they had survived the crash, but froze to death afterwards. of course none of this was released to media by anyone in charge.

[@andyeaston8391]

Wow! I had never heard this before. Of course Chippindale was a barefaced liar and got his just desserts later.

[@Wol747]

Looking at the shallow angle between the flight path and the snowfield as shown in the photos I can quite believe this.

[@scooby1992]

@@andyeaston8391 I am sure I read that he died in a Road Traffic Accident .

[@robinfautley8698]

@@scooby1992 I was told he was knocked down whilst out walking but then another that he was actually cycling. I found it hard to accept his expertise when he could not bring himself to exonerate Alf Bartlett of ZK-BWA. Very bad decision of Chippendale or was it Chippindale. Nobody is sure which!!!

[@josephconnor2310]

Wow, hadn't heard this before. Thanks for sharing.

[@getmeouttatennessee4473]

Wonderful, thank you so much! As an insane #AVGeek , I watch a lot of videos here on YT. I have to say that this incident is the one that has always flooded my heart with the most sadness. So many people that had saved or splurged for this trip of a lifetime, cameras snapping so many beautiful sights. Everyone smiling and chatting with no idea of what would happen in just a few minutes. Soooo many tragedies that day. The people at home waiting for their return. 💔 Just devastating.

[@si_vis_amari_ama]

@ 13:03: "amongst the confusion and in combination with the hazardous whiteout effect, the crew did not notice Mount Erebus..." Sorry to criticise a good video, however the term "the crew did not notice..." indicates that the mountain was visual, but they were not seeing it. There's a big difference between this statement and the known whiteout conditions that rendered the terrain invisible to them.

[@Sashazur]

Yes, everything else I’ve watched and read about this accident states that they never saw it due to whiteout conditions.

[@truewitness]

Great work! Make more please! 😊

[@777jones]

RIP to the skillful Flight Engineer! He knew the INS could drift over time!

[@mattthrun-nowicki8641]

It drifted less than a mile. The issue wasn’t the AINS system. And, by accounts of those who heard the CVR tape in the USA, the FE wasn’t anxious when saying this. Moreover, he was answered by Peter Mulgrew, suggesting that’s who he directed his question to. This is not the behavior of someone who’s truly concerned about something as serious as their position being drastically wrong, but rather someone with a passing curiosity as to where something is. Ah, but perhaps he was intimidated, as some insisted? Unlikely- he had no problem challenging the pilots during other parts of the flight caught on the CVR (ie- offering advice about the squelch). And the flight crew had made multiple (at least 12) statements indicating visual confirmation of topographic features, and at no time did anyone question this, including the FE. The only logical answer is that the FE was not in doubt as to their location, but likely had troubles getting his bearings as to which azimuth Erebus was on from his vantage point.

[@kevinlavery6985]

The mountain they keep showing photos of is not Mt. Erebus. It’s Mt. Discovery which is nearby. I went to Antarctica four times in the Navy. Discovery was the front view outside my building. Erebus was behind the building.

[@darrenwateva6657]

im new to your channel, i think you did a great job, subscribed and will happily be watching future videos.

[@tranceorkester]

Keep up the good work, subscribed!

[@michaellewis1703]

Excellent work. Thank you.

[@F_Tim1961]

17:00 This is a bit of a simplification of what Pilot Cap'n Simpson did. Yes he noticed the discrepancy so he overflew the Tacam. The DME on the aircraft can tell the distance to the Tacam , which is a military version of a Non Directional Beacon, by the time of flight of the radio signal. THis may sound incredible but it is true. The DME uses the known height of the aircraft to estimate the distance over ground to the signal source, which is pulsed and contains the Tacam's ID. Now by overflying it he saw the distance clock down to zero and verfied the known Tacam's position against his INS and reset the INS slightly, he says so he had a known reference point for his return flight. I am not sure about the visibility conditions on this day but they may well have been a LOT better than the day the Final 901 went down. What Cap'n Simpson was effectively saying by calling it a cross track error was he considered the Tacam should have been the target point of the flight. For this to be possible safely the McM waypoint needed to be shifted up the McM sound sea say 30- 32 Nm North, which would enable the turn towards the Tacam while keeping good clearances from the mountains. But he did not instruct anyone to do this - this was not his place to do so. So Mr Hewitt gets on the computer that night and does a bodgy job of it . Possibly he did the change the way he did, so that there would not be an extra waypoint in the system. That would confuse the flight crew who had been briefed about ten days before on where they were going and what the waypoints were. Or he simply just got lazy and did a bare minimum job. Why did he do it allegedly at two am on the day of the flight ? Had he been dithering as to what do do and had a sudden inspiration. ? At this point in the proceedings the only safe thing to do would be for the pilots to have the save min altitudes reinforced AND be told about what Simpson had observed and be told to watch out for it , it was normal and they could verify their INS in the same way. Next flight it could be fixed and the briefing modified accordingly. Whatever the case , the flight crew should have been briefed on the change, any change. They never were, because a few hours after he allegedly made the change , with nobody else checking it, they were getting out o bed, shaving and driving to the airport in AKLD for preflight work. The strange Telex that was sent to the Americans from ANZ headquarters which was missing coordinates suggests that someone in Air Nz saw the navigation change and was going into cover your ar_se mode. Maybe this was Hewitt. Maybe someone else. Nobody was ever charged by NZ Police with dereliction of duty, incompetence or anything else over this glorious muck up. Officially Hewitt was not even sacked though I bet he really was. One thing is sure and that is Hewitt told the Royal Commission a pack of lies about what really happened. He was therefore in contempt of court. Edit - it turns out that the chances for the new course were prepped about two weeks earlier but due to some maintenance (updates ) scheduling, it did not happen until that night. The keying in did NOT occur then. - it had been loaded to a magnetic tape or similar by this time. TE. Fidler, NzL

[@TheLukaszpg]

Throw in a few interviews and we have another episode of ACI. Awesome job.

[@danielford7377]

Outstanding and clear thank you

[@portuguesnomundo]

Nice video my friend!

[@anhedonianepiphany5588]

Something for people to keep in mind is just how proud New Zealand and Australia are of the safety of their respective airlines. Citizens of these nations can confidently fly aboard aircraft owned by those airlines due to their proven track record. Even minor incidents of engine problems or “near” collisions become headline news events, and an actual crash with fatalities is almost unthinkable. Although this crash occurred decades ago, the general atmosphere of absolute safety, and the complacency it imbues, wasn’t much different than it is today. Anyway, thanks for the great content.

[@ActiveAussie2024]

If you are just flying from somewhere like Sydney or Brisbane to Auckland for instance, yes, that is extremely safe. As for flying to USA or Europe, I don't think Qantas or Air NZ is any safer than most other airlines. Having said that, it's a lot of airports where the actual danger lies, poor design and layout, runway configurations etc not the actual jets themselves.

[@scott4393]

Certainly one of the better videos explaining this complex tragedy … 👍👍

[@spaceace1006]

This was\is so sad. The Authorities tried to blame it on the Pilots.

[@gretchenlittle6817]

Sounds as though the airline tried to blame the pilots. The judge's investigation called the airline's version of events into question.

[@andrewgkorol]

Very comprehensive and it's obvious you have a clear understanding of aircraft systems whilst being able to explain them in their simplicity. I'm sure this channel will grow fast, in the meantime I'll do my best to help out the algorithm :P

[@rossbrown6641]

Good, apart from Donald Duck's narration! Where did they find him?

[@andrewgkorol]

@@redblade8160 all comments and likes boost a video's presence in the KZbin algorithm

[@andrewgkorol]

@@redblade8160 different algorithm, the one that works with video recommendations etc.

[@jamesparsons9068]

I liked the prophetic expression by one of the crew 'there's no high ground if we do a 180'.

[@Javier69er]

This is outstanding. I will definitely be showing this to my new hire classes when training starts back up! Great way to show normalization of deviations! Excellent job!

[@mirandahotspring4019]

I can remember this happening, when on the news they said the flight was missing, and then later in the investigation where Justice Peter Mahon called it "an orchestrated litany of lies".

[@serverlan763]

Sight seeing at 2000 feet in an Air Liner Around Mountains in snow conditions, just nuts....

[@rossbrown6641]

Not only that! This was by no means Nz's greatest tragedy, yet very bad enough!

[@moiraatkinson]

@@rossbrown6641 I was thinking that! Wasn’t there a tragedy during a sight seeing flight that actually used to land, after which planes stopped the landing flights?

[@F_Tim1961]

@@moiraatkinson No. Air Nz never landed on the ice. There has been a landing done by a commercial airliner and it was in Chile's area of the antarctic I believe. There have been accidents involving US military airlift flights landing on the ice runway and some have been fatal.

[@moiraatkinson]

@@F_Tim1961 maybe it was a Chilean flight then, which stopped after a fatal accident. I just feel sure I’ve watched a video about a sightseeing flight which suffered a crash, after which these trips were stopped. 🤔 Maybe it’s a false memory - I’ve become a quite interested in these 😃. You may well be right.

[@F_Tim1961]

@@moiraatkinson Hi Fly has flown out of Cape Town to the Ice in recent times. This appears to be a Finnish outfit . I can't be sure. I don't know of any other tourist flights that land on the ice and then take off again. you may have been thinking of a crash in the Arctic perhaps ?? I know that the US has lost several turbo prop planes at McMurdo - mainly by hitting snow banks at the sides of the runway. I believe the aircraft stay hot - they never let them shut down completely. The US flew Starlifters about the time of the Erebus crash and later on they chance over to ski equipped Hercules. This was a type of ski with slots for the wheels - otherwise how could they take off in Christchurch, Nz. Tim F

[@susangrayson6508]

This case has enthralled and yet bugged me since the day it happened. I've even read Justice Mahon's entire findings. Air NZ appealed, of course, when their defence was in fact the litany of lies as he determined, perpetrated not least by their own investigators, who looked totally uncomfortable giving answers at the royal commssion. They didn't, or couldn't, recall, had no knowledge or recollection of, etc etc. Clearly on instruction from their masters. Of course this is by no means an isolated stance by a major carrier. If there are no survivors, blame pilot and/or crew error, they're not able to defend themselves anyway. The mantra was then and probably still is, protect the reputation and the bottom line at all costs, and stuff the flying public. There remain to this day, more questions than answers. Why were Jim Collins' and Greg Cassin's homes burgled, with only documents taken, and valuables in plain sight untouched? Why did they want them if they had nothing to hide? I know I'd believe their widows over the airline. No, Air NZ can't be called a proud carrier unless and until it provides proper answers to this largely unresolved tragedy. But it was so long ago now that its not likely to happen. And so we continue to put our trust in it, and the others. On a wing and a prayer is probably much closer to the reality of flying, with any of them, than we care to think about.

[@F_Tim1961]

The homes were burgled, if this was not a rhetorical question in order to get any copies of flight briefing notes, plans and so on that could compromise Air Nz by showing the as flown flight path was not the as briefed flight . I would not be surprised if a certain airline used personal contacts with these families to know when they'd be out so the burglars could have good search and not be caught. The NZ police of course found nobody . Greg Cassin's wife used to fly for Air Nz and was forced out quite quickly after the accident. I don't know the fine detail but it did happen. TF

[@aftonline]

@@F_Tim1961 It almost seems they were trying to hide something much darker and deeper than just a simple navigational error. Very troubling stuff...

[@F_Tim1961]

@@aftonline It sounds like you don't know the full story. The A /crew was briefed on a a route the the Right (sbd) of Beaufort Island and up the normal Ross Sea route that the US Starlifters took. Then the navigation waypoints they were given on the day did not correspond with the briefed course. They entered them correctly but had not map to see what the waypoints represented physically and the display of the guidance system was rather crude -numbers only. So it was essential for the Air NZ lie that the pilots alone were responsible that all the briefing notes they were given two weeks before were burgled . Anyone looking at the briefing notes plus the track flown (up until there was manual take over) would realise that the a/c was not flying the correct cause under autopilot. The track flown should be recorded on the flight data recorder and both the CVR and FDR were recovered at the crash site. THere's evidence also that a flight plan folder was burgled on the Ice by Air NZ chief pilot Gemmell -that's to say the contents were removed but the cover was packed up with all the other passenger physical material to be sorted in Auckland. So the cover of the F Plan was shown to the enquiry and it was demonstrated that the mechanism of the ring lock was strong and it could not open by accident. The folder was not damaged by fire.

[@patriciaramsey5294]

Liked your explaining of this tragedy. Well thought out. Keep it up

[@rossbrown6641]

Maybe. But what about the Donald Duck-narration? Dreadful!

[@soundquilt3915]

Great video.

[@3Greens]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@GFK256]

Remember seeing a very good NZ tv presentation on this accident. Capt. Gordon Vette did an outstanding job of proving sector whiteout and Justice Mahon did an outstanding job of getting to the truth. At the very least, ANZ should have provided a NOTAM or bulletin to the operating crew in their mailboxes on the day of the flight. At least tell them. This was an internal communication error that could have been avoided. Never ASSUME anything in aviation.

[@davidrobinson8224]

Yep that was a damn good show. I remember Justice Mahon saying something like 'I was given a vocabulary and I intent to use it’, when he was being pressured not to go hard on the airline.

[@GFK256]

@@davidrobinson8224 Used this as an example in undergraduate aviation safety courses I used to teach. Still an excellent example of searching for root causes. Wish I could find some of the books on this, but think they are all out of print.

[@davidrobinson8224]

What you say about 'searching for root causes' is the essence of any investigation undertaken like this, and something I've always maintained should be the main focus, not the inevitable 'Finger Pointing' that so often happens.

[@joedennehy386]

@@davidrobinson8224 he described Air nzs evidence as " an orchestrated littany of lies" enough said

[@GFK256]

@@davidrobinson8224 Yes, finding out the "real why" so as to prevent future occurrences.

[@wayneelliott1180]

I remember laying in bed as a kid with a transistor radio and hearing the newsflash that 901 had crashed into Erebus.

[@reidunbrown7971]

Wonderful!

[@daviddenham1511]

I was a Navigation Officer/ Flight Planner for 19 years with major airlines…..I’ve seen similar errors in my time…..however what I can’t understand about this is if the waypoint was moved then the minimum altitudes (MSAs) would have been changed as well in the programmed FPL….so even if the crew thought they were somewhere else the aircraft would not descend to an unsafe altitude on the new route…….puzzling?

[@dianewalker4633]

The crew were never told of the change, so didn't know they were on a new route. The plane had been programmed on a collision course straight into the mountain and nobody knew. The crew were invited to descend to a low altitude and they did because the captain believed they were flying up the flat, safe McMurdo Sounds. As to the altitude change - after being invited to go to a lower altitude this was done manually and the plane then reset back onto the NAV programme, as Captain Collins had faith in the system and had no reason to think that they were anywhere other than the route he had been briefed on by the company.

[@rmooreg]

@Tim F I believe the crew was not advised of the coordinate changes made navigation dept. did not want to draw attention to the fact that the original coordinates, the flight plan that was being used and had been from day one, was erroneous. It had been input incorrectly and nobody noticed for months. A dozen or so flights, in fact ALL of them up to that point, had flown that flight path without incident. It was only after one of the pilots, after returning from the flight, mentioned to someone in navigation that something was off in reference to the coordinates, they weren't lining up with the topographical sites listed in the promotional literature. It was only then that they discovered the error in the input, a couple of transposed numbers. So they decided to change the coordinates to what they SHOULD have been all along, neglecting to check to see what the change of course would actually yield. Turns out it was a 26 mile difference, redirecting the plane grom flying straight over McMurdo sound to flying directly at Mt Erebus. They didn't tell the pilots or anyone else because they did not want the original error discovered. The original course took the plane over Erebus at 16,000 ft an altitude that had been modified and reduced over time and due to approval by the American air base for flights over the sound. 3000 rt.was perfectly safe over sea level. The course changed the heading by 26 miles, taking the flight inland and directly at Erebus. Leaving the flight crew uninformed was an egregious breach of SOP , and coupled with the near zero visibility, whiteout conditions, the pilots had no way of knowing what they headed into. The actions of Air New Zealand were inexcusable. Their coverup and attempts to blame the pilots were unforgivable.

[@F_Tim1961]

Richard, Close but not quite there. The first commercial flights and the proving flights with CAA only aboard were all over Erebus. This was 1976 time approximately. The flight plan (INS) was later changed but how it was changed is the issue. Most people including Justice Mahon think that Hewitt lied in court and the plan was not changed by accident but by conscious intent to shift it to the West and make it safer and generally follow the USAF flight path that went down McMurdo Sound. Mahon never made that latter statement explicitly to my knowledge. The point is that the Americans were always landing and under radar control whereas the TE 901 flights were overflying and had a LOT more interest that their INS had not drifted , with respect to the flight back to Nz. If Hewitt really made an error and shifted the waypoint to the McMurdo position on the FIRST Error then how on earth did the Air Nz flight briefing find out about it and modify their briefing accordingly ? Or did they do their briefing based on hearsay from the pilots who flew earlier. ? When you look at it in detail, the Hewitt story does not hold water. Why would AIR Nz not fess up to the original change to the McM sound route ? Partly because it was not the route that went through the formal review process with the CAA, as foolish as the over Erebus route may appear in hindsight. Foolish because of radar and radio shading and because Erebus is an active volcano. In terms of MSA it's nominally perfectly safe if you stay at 16 000 ft. The "error " that Simpson reported was simply that he expected to be flying directly towards the Tacam beacon provided by the US Navy or airforce at the end of this flight. That's way he called it a cross track error. If the flight plan had him flying directly towards it, it would have made it simple to check the alignment of his INS to be sure there was no drift. If you overfly a Tacam / NDB and it is to the left or right of you , you can't be sure which side it was , the only thing is you will see the offset (nautical miles) of the Tacam never drop down to zero on the DME on the flight deck, which means you don't know whether your flying is out or your INS has drifted or what is going on. Notice that Mr R Johnson , who was Hewitt's superior tried to back off from the story of the 26 Nm cross track error reported to him by Simpson in court. He did not want to be seen in the chain of command that "made" Hewitt make the last change. ... .all a pack of lies. I am sure that Simpson spoke the truth. This was all before email was common, so it is hard to get hard evidence about what was said to whom. TEF

[@rmooreg]

@@F_Tim1961 I think the navigation dept. got lucky when they entered the first flight plan incorrectly. The change in course, although not approved, turned out to be benign and as you pointed out, safer in many ways than the original. The 16k ft. min.altitude was no longer adhered to once the Americans approved the 3000 ft.alt.which became the norm.When the error was corrected, the 16k alt. was never addressed. Is that due to the altitude being discretionary and up to the pilots on each flight? Altitude is not referenced in the coordinates input process? I don't know but that would explain why the flight path changed without any change to altitude in the computer. And since the change was never mentioned to the pilots they didn't know to replot their course topographically? What're your thoughts on that? It seems like a huge glitch if that was the case.

[@F_Tim1961]

@@rmooreg the aircrew was provided with aero charts for this flight but they were of too small a scale to be useful. Because they missed a critical island called Beaufort Island just out from Cape Hallett which was on the wrong side of track it is clear that they were not plotting landmarks , such as they were , against the charts. There were photos of Beaufort Isld off to Starboard on some of the dead passenger's cameras. Film cameras. you are correct. The (A)INS is a system that instructs the aircraft where to fly on a flat earth with no height input. The pilot can set the desired hgt on autopilot or often flies to that high and tells the autopilot to maintain that height. The minute he moves the controls , the autopilot mode drops out with respect to height control . There is also a heading mode where the AP will maintain heading and the pilot controls the aircraft's pitch. Heading mode cannot be used for long runs because of wind drift . The American flight service never approved anything. They made an offer of a radar guided descent, obviously with no intent to guide in a landing. There is no reason to believe that these ground controllers knew anything about the Air Nz minimum flight altitudes and 6000 ft was the minimum once past Erebus. (that assume the pilot can see Erebus). I think 1500 ft ASL (it might have been that rather than 3000 ft ASL, I can't listen to the recording just now ) was offered because the Americans knew that ANZ flights had been that low in the past. I don't think that the ANZ Air nav department got lucky when the conversion over of the nav systems took place. This is one of the potentially most dangerous places in the world Air Nz would go to . They would have or four checks done by different people of that conversion process. Why ? IN event of error , fuel failure or anything else, There is NO Possibility of putting the plane down there without mass casualties, in general everyone dead or drowned. Everything points to the first change as having been a conscious change. Justice Mahon basically said Hewitt lied on this point in the report of the Royal Enquiry. Why would Air Nz lie ? - because it fitted the narrative . TEF

[@joedennehy386]

The flight plan was changed , and the pilots were not informed. Thus was established by Mahon

[@ryanOGab]

@@F_Tim1961 close but not quite there and all the while done with to much talking. My god you most have the most punchable face in any room that your in.

[@robinfautley8698]

I would like to add for clarity - the chief accident inspector was Ron Chippendale. I see throughout a number of people including pilots supporter agree with the Chippendale conclusions on Erebus. I would ask that everyone looks back on an accident in 1961 often called “Bay of Plenty Airlines crash on Mt Ruapehu”. The Chief Accident Inspector at that time was Paddy O’Brien. The pilot of the aircraft - Aero Commander - was Alf Bartlett. Friend of Brian Chadwick and Brian Waugh (the latter father of Richard Waugh). Bartlett was accused by the CAI of flying too close to Ruapehu and striking that volcano. (NB another volcano in the way!) like Erebus Collins, Bartletts friends were sure he did not hit Ruapehu. Subsequently over the years, the Aero Commander aircraft suffered 24 further crashes due to wings falling off due to metal fatigue in the wing spar cap - due to a design weakness. It was just misfortunate for Bartlett that HIS aircraft ZK-BWA was the first of these types to have the wing fall off. As the years rolled on and more was discovered about the design fault, eventually the New Zealand CAA held a further investigation in 1984. All the aircraft experts provided absolute proof of the metal fatigue and design weakness in ZK-BWA to the Chief Accident Inspector of 1984 and that was the sole cause of the wing falling off in 1961 and NOT PILOT ERROR. But “Blame the pilot” Chippendale happened to be the 1984 CAI and still he refused to exonerate Bartlett. Even to this day, Bartlett’s son Russell still knows that Chippendale would not apologize for the errors of the predecessor CAIs. These facts can all be gleaned from the internet as well as a number of books and articles - especially those of Dr Richard Waugh - the Chaplin to the NZ air pilots guild. He knows all of the facts re accident inspectors attitudes from 1967 when his own father crashed into the Shotover (a river next to the airport at Queenstown). The investigation into that crash albeit on a very small scale, showed up NZ accident inspectors - and it continued with the Erebus saga.

[@jesusleon5764]

This is a very well made video

[@Glen.Danielsen]

An insightful video, really well done. 💛🙏🏼

[@andrewbarlow8577]

Great video, nicely explained. What an awful tragedy.

[@845SiM]

Remember watching the documentary a few years ago about the police who went out to recover the passengers and crew. Great documentary about a horrific accident.

[@eucliduschaumeau8813]

It is called "Erebus: Operation Overdue" and it really is an excellent film.

[@broncoguy4862]

@@eucliduschaumeau8813 Thank you for posting this info.

[@scooby1992]

The police and recovery teams worked in appalling conditions . Not only the heartbreaking task of body recovery , but the Antarctic weather conditions that could change suddenly . They had to spend long periods of time at the crash site if the weather got too bad for the helicopters to land.

[@moiraatkinson]

@@scooby1992 The police get some horrible jobs. Could the military at McMurdo not have at least helped ? Thanks for the film title @Euclidud Chaumeau

[@scooby1992]

@@moiraatkinson In fairness Moira they did have a lot of military support . The military provided the logistics such as the helicopters and personnel . The police did the body identification where they could .

[@darrenbyrne4622]

Well done

[@lisabowenhospital]

Very well said

[@si_vis_amari_ama]

I was not aware of the transponder set to standby mode. This seems to be the one factor that *was* able to be controlled by the crew and would most likely have saved the situation. Furthermore, no one noticed this error when the ping was not received by McMurdo ATC. Unfortunately this pilot error reflects their workload and distraction at the time. Terrain is unforgiving of mistakes.

[@philipberry6477]

BS

[@ajs41]

The crew never saw the mountain ahead of them, even at the last second.

[@thomasmyers6641]

The GPS system was not opened to civil aviation until after Korean Air 007 (9/1/1983). The full, 24-satellite system was not completed until 1993. (According to Wikipedia). This tragedy took place in 1979.

[@PeterShieldsukcatstripey]

Tragic. Feel so very sorry for all those people.

[@richardboll8763]

WeLl done, as usual!

[@musicbill101]

I clearly remember the day of this. I was in my first year of high school. Mid evening. A news flash was announced that Flight 901 was missing. The next morning Mum informs me that they found the wreckage on Mt Erebus which I misheard as Mt Everest. (at that time , I never heard of Mt Erebus). I said to Mum, that can’t be right , Mt Everest is in Tibet!

[@reidunbrown7971]

Jeezerz!

[@sdfft820]

This flight was most irresponsible for Air Newzealand.

[@martintheiss4038]

Yes it was, ironically there is a classic movie of Captain Vette rescuing an American bush pilot who got lost in over the ocean there once. The third officer that day was the PIC of this flight. Vette at once knew attacks on Collins reputation had no place in reality then he found something even more sinister.

[@pirate3599]

If Collins confirmed his actual position before going below MSA he would have realized Erebus was right in front of him

[@balancedaustralia]

This is very scary to watch for someone who would like to live for ever. This should not have happened. Planes should be equipped with more than one way to know their height and geographical position even if not in contact with any air base controller. There should be knowledge of where to land safely in case of emergency. What a disaster for those who booked to have a good experience and lost their lives unnecessarily.

[@F_Tim1961]

For flights to Antarctica there is no alternate landing. That's why doing them for fun is a madness. TE.Fidler NzL

[@prac2]

They changed the route on him at the last minute

[@SuperHns]

WOW these DC planes were a real pain so many crashes.

[@dare-er7sw]

Airplanes need long range collision avoidance system with forward looking terrain radar option plus a computer giving warning up to three minute early to a potential collision based on the current flying path with mountain, treee cover, or land.

[@tomtom1541]

Pretty sure they already do this using GPS data on modern aircraft. This event was from the 70s though.

[@TheCarin12]

I remember the news that a plane was late returning from Antarctica.

[@michaelhayden5264]

This orchestrated litany of lies. Imho Air New Zealand should have been prosecuted for their role in this tragedy.

[@KiwiSentinel]

The New Zealand government had a a large deal of ownership of the airlines so the Prime Minister was not about to let that happen or become remotely possible. Hence much late night paper shredding.

[@davidroscoe3815]

@@KiwiSentinel Muldoon, NZ's own dictator.

[@KiwiSentinel]

@@davidroscoe3815 he certainly behaved like one.

[@davidroscoe3815]

@@KiwiSentinel He wouldn't leave the PM's office after loosing the election until David Lange threatened to sit on him...lol

[@roysaxon2619]

Makes me wonder how pilots could land passenger jets in, say, heavy fog back in the early days of passenger flights. No GPS, nothing to use for reference- I’m talking about the 1930s up to, say, the 1960s. Especially on long haul flights, how did pilots know where they were, when to descend and then where precisely to land a plane in heavy fog? Incredible skill, for sure. God bless those poor souls on board. ❤

[@tomtom1541]

Well they'd use radio beacons, ILS and old school instruments like a compass / map.

[@richardcranium3579]

“Folks we have Peter Mulgrew on board with years of experience with this mountain…..” Can’t find said mountain.

[@DwayneETowns]

Very sad tragedy., the thought is haunting.

[@dianewalker4633]

Ron Chippendale's accident report was an extremely wrong and dishonest document. He was found to have made upwards of 55 changes to the cockpit voice recorder transcript, adding in whole sentences that had never been uttered. At no time did any of the crew act disoriented or confused. Pilot error had nothing to do with the accident as the coordinates to the aircraft had been changed just a few hours prior to takeoff in Auckland and the crew had not been informed. The crew had been briefed to fly down the safe, flat McMurdo Sound while the plane had been programmed on a collision course straight into the mountain. The crew believed they were flying over McMurdo and had no reason to think otherwise as the whiteout conditions showed the terrain to be very similar to that of McMurdo. It was all so very tragic.

[@allgood6760]

Sad but true 🇳🇿✈️

[@jameskonzek8892]

Given the opportunity, who wouldn't have gone on that flight? I know I would have.

[@josephconnor2310]

It's something, that most of the wreck of the plane is still there.

[@keithdonnellan5564]

Flying should be for getting from A-B not for Disneyland entertainment. I've lived in NZ in New Plymouth. They are very obsessed with being green. This plane makes a mockery of NZ.

[@serverlan763]

Imagine being on an Airliner and the pilot forgets to turn the Transponder to Alt....

[@occamsrayzor]

I'll never forget this. I don't think there was a person in the country that wasn't deeply affected by it. It seemed as if everyone had some connection to those lost.

[@hebneh]

I presume that today, such a collision with the ground would've been warned of well before it actually happened, so this couldn't happen again in this same way.

[@ajs41]

Yes because of GPS telling people exactly where they are.

[@cchris874]

Hi, I enjoyed your video. Considerably better done than some of the other recent 901 KZbin videos. Question: I've discussed this crash at PPRuNe, and also on other forums on a number of occasions over the years. My impression is The NZ public seems as a whole to agree with Mahon, that the pilots did everything right. The consensus view of pilots, on the other hand, appears to be that the crew were not able to positively establish their position before descending below MSA. And indeed once below the clouds they still could not do so. Thus they were in violation of visual flight rules. Wondering if you concur with the (apparently) pilot consensus. I have found this debate to be very polarizing. Thanks

[@3Greens]

Glad you enjoyed it! Overall, like most accidents, there were numerous factors involved. I believe Mahon stated in his report that the descent below MSA was a contributor to the accident but was not the primary cause. Interestingly, the minimum route altitude, even in clear conditions, was 6000ft. So the pilots were violating the approval to fly on the route to McMurdo even if they had a position fix. But as stated in the video, this behaviour was typical of Air New Zealand crews flying this sector. Thus why I listed Normalization of Deviance as one of the factors towards the end of the video. I could go on and on about this, and I believe its even questionable as to whether the crew were even told about the approval's MSA details in their briefing in previous weeks. It's an accident case study full of rabbit holes!

[@cchris874]

@@3Greens Indeed. Thank you for your reply. One particular criticism I have of the Mahon report is that, as I understand it, the function of the onboard navigation (AINS) is not terrain avoidance, as only ground based aides are considered adequate for this purpose. So I fail to see how the changed way point became "the single most dominant cause" of the crash, as Mahon wrote. I am not a pilot, but I am wondering if you also see his interpretation as misguided here. How can he have ascribed the dominant cause of the crash to a device not considered appropriate for terrain avoidance? Thanks

[@3Greens]

@@cchris874 I would have to look more into the approval to make a definite judgement. In general, the MSA issue and terrain avoidance was just one piece of the puzzle which came together to cause the accident. It alone didn't result in the aircraft going down, but certainly was a factor which contributed to the accident.

[@nztv8589]

@@cchris874 My understanding is that the AINS was so accurate it could be relied upon to navigate over high ground. It was accurate to 1 or 2 miles even after a journey of several thousand miles. However, at the time of the crash they weren't using it for terrain avoidance. They were using a combination of the AINS with the co-ordinates plotted on an Atlas (which, mysteriously went missing ) as they thought, to navigate over the flat sea ice over Mc Murdo sound. They were also in VMC as they were in clear air.

[@cchris874]

@@nztv8589 AINS was accurate so long as it was programmed correctly. The reason it should not have been relied on is because of the ever present possibility of incorrectly punching in the wrong coordinates. The accident itself is proof of this. Presumably ground based aides are not continually updated in this manner, and thus safer. Hence the requirement that you either go visual or else with the guidance of ground based radar. "However, at the time of the crash they weren't using it for terrain avoidance." But they were relying on it for establishing their position. Take away AINS from the picture and the crew would have had no way to establish where they were with any degree of confidence. Before they descended below MSA, or 16,000 ft, they could not visually make any positive fix, nor could they see Mt. Erebus, as it was all obscured by cloud layers. Thus their descent below MSA violated VFR. At least that's how I have come to see it in various pilot discussions over the years.

[@andrewlambert4934]

No oscar for this performance

[@fractalnomics]

10:40 What you have claimed here is the first I have heard of this interpretation. Are you sure they saw the mountain? Didn't the command for go-around power come after and during the alarm? As a response to the alarm?

[@alex-zc9lh]

That orbit pattern came so close to well you know we stayin innocent today

[@glennonline]

One thing you do not explain in your video is why the Air New Zealand Navigation Department did not advise the flight crew of the change in flight path. In fact, after Captain Simpson’s alert that the end waypoint was incorrect, the Navigation Department (unaware of the original typo) thought they were moving the end waypoint from the NDB (Non Directional Beacon - an older navigation system used previously) to the TACAN (Tactical Air Navigation System, a newer navigational aid), a distance of a couple of miles, not the actual 25 miles the change represented. This is why they did not let the pilots know - they thought they were making a minor change but in fact had plotted a catastrophic flight path.

[@waynepayne9875]

Massive jetliners aren't toys. Flying at 1000ft near mountains was a doomed idea from the start.

[@SuperHns]

this was an old ass plane too,

[@forevermetal2464]

All the, "I'm not sures" to flat out, "I DON'T KNOWs", being the pilot I'd have to ABORT the plans all together. Isn't ALWAYS, "SAFETY FIRST?" Well, at this point we're not getting a "do over" here and 267 lives are GONE and may they all Rest In Peace. I'm all the families wanted answers and lawsuits for justice took place!! I hope they were because it always winds up to be "misinformation" or "miscommunication!!" SO SAD!! 😓

[@henrybertolette2496]

Fire

[@21stCenturyComm]

What accent is the ground controller doing?

[@gabe-po9yi]

Why a tour guide would’ve had input on their position when he couldn’t see anything is beyond me. I believe his opinion carried weight (possibly confirmation bias) with the pilots, when he should’ve just said that because of the clouds, he didn’t know where they were.

[@martintheiss4038]

Yes well as it turned out one Edmond Hillary was out on a speaking tour and was unable to join up so he hired that guy to take his place. His widow happened to be the guys wife as well.

[@PiliaeAl]

I was on this flight. Now I exist only in cyberspace ; )

[@pirate3599]

The big question remains: why did collins not confirm his actual position before going below MSA? This is criminal

[@snivla4]

I thought the problem was the inertial flight control system and the problem was the fact that planes dont usually fly that close to magnetic poles . I think it is amazing how before standard semiconductors the flight computers on the newest and first passenger jet aircraft were quite complex and technological for what they were. Shame they stopped doing these flights on a regular basis. I myself would prefer to go there on a boat.

[@dufus7396]

The quasi govt dept mental culture at Air New Zealand was the underlying cause of this event. Everybody did their "jobs" no more no less . However there was a very cohesive team dynamic at play in the cover up aftermath..besmirching the dead pilots. This was decribed in the enquiry as an " orchestrated litany of lies"

[@avehaddon3211]

So sad rip

[@jaredmehrlich6683]

One doesnt show up on radar unless one has a transponder?

[@mattthrun-nowicki8641]

Also, there’s some confusion re: the transponder. On the CVR, transcript, you can clearly see that the crew saw the transponder responding. Yet post-crash, investigators stated it was in standby. No idea how to reconcile that.

[@F_Tim1961]

Do you mean the Tacas on the ground or the transponder ? The transponder might have alerted the ATC at McM if it went into shadow but that 's only a maybe. the VHF radio comms were lost and nobody thought about a mountain the way. ??

[@mattthrun-nowicki8641]

@@F_Tim1961 Nobody thought they were heading right for a mountain because they weren’t aware the route had been moved. And that what they saw out of the cockpit freakishly conformed with what you might’ve seen flying down McMurdo Sound- look up Gordon Vette’s illustrations for more proof. Add to that the fact that the power of the VHF radio transmitters at Ice Tower were known to be quite low and prone to drop out. And re: Transponder, I mean exactly the transponder- the CVR clearly captures (I believe) the FO remarking that it started being interrogated, which I’m sure led to a false sense of reassurement.

[@F_Tim1961]

@@mattthrun-nowicki8641 First para - I think part of the issue was having a civilian in the cockpit making commentary and he was mis identifying landmarks. The pilots maybe could not have done better on their own but a bit of peace and quiet might have improved the odds. ...known to be quite low... Known by whom ? Either this was covered in the pre flight briefing or not. Perhaps USAF pilots knew about this but nobody from the US was called to the trial. I am not sure where this information on the transmitters comes from. You would have to be more specific about where in the CVR tape you are referring to. Those tapes or accurate transcriptions of them are available on line. Cheers, Tim F

[@robinfautley8698]

@@F_Tim1961 The CVR - you have to be careful whether you follow the version put out by Chippendale/Chippindale or the original version that had been following the rules for transcription. So watch out for the transponder being interrogated in one version and not the other. Also remember that Chips made 54 amendments to the first version “to support his accident report”. Logically, an accident report should devolve from the facts found. The 54 changes to original transcription made by Chips because the original generally agreed version did not support his report was more than naughty! But Chips himself was as badly trained to investigate a modern wide-bodied aircraft accident as were Collins and Cassin were trained to cope with Sector Whiteout and Antarctica. It is always a conundrum whether the US radar and ATC at MacMurdo did spot Collins on their radar but the real CVR did have the comment that albeit briefly the transponder was being interrogated. Matt T-N appears to have gone into this at a far greater depth than most commentators. I think Chips took too many short cuts and had a misplaced confidence in his abilities and too slap dash. Even spelling his name differently in his official accident report displays a problem.

[@F_Tim1961]

@@robinfautley8698 Thanks for your input. Chippindale (as per Wiki spelling) I think had made his mind up it was controlled F into terrain while he was there on the ice before he'd even heard the cockpit tapes. There's an interview with him from TVNZ and he enumerates about the engines working perfectly well (my words) and so on. The best way to pick his transcript are the words "It's a bit thick out there Bert" or eh, Bert. I'm not sure who this person was , looking at the flight crew. Chippendale supposedly took a copy of the CVR tape from the US to Farnborough, UK and did his transcript there on his own. But he must have had the "true " transcript with him as he had no other way to ID the voices. That is a completely unacceptable way of arriving at an official transcript. I am suspicious that US ATC may have seen the aircraft for a short time before it went into the shadow of Erebus and this may be one of the reasons why the US did not allow Justice Mahon any access to the US servicemen. Air NZ of course lead Chippindale by the nose as he has no idea that the flight plan had been changed . But it is his job to ferret out such stuff - as perhaps a formal interview with Captain Simpson about the briefing he got before he flew the previous flight . THat might have elicited from Simpson information about the "26nm cross track error". I believe the word error was used. But that never happened. It was oh so convenient for PM Rob Muldoon and other parties that he was somewhat out of his depth. TEF

[@johnskelton1117]

This was the mother of all cover ups!

[@martintheiss4038]

Yes among other things a CEO who started his career 40 years ago as an office assistant at the airline was sacked and the justice was never seen as a viable legal assistant again after this.

[@NextWorldVR]

What are Sarvices?

[@johnmilam2016]

Are these are actual voices/communication between ATC and pilots? Or just fabricated?

[@grandbino4703]

"And it won't be long before we all get a good view" 😳😳😳

[@AC-vo2ft]

Does anybody know if the crew used their radar in MAP mode or even in NORMAL mode with a large nose down tilt? This would have painted the coastline on the radar and alerted them as to their location.

[@skywaymanaz]

I believe this was determined to not be a factor. The radar return from ice in temperatures that cold is the same as from land. It’s all dry as far as the radar signal can make out.

[@engineerinnewyork]

This is explained in detail in Peter Mahon's book

[@ajs41]

Doesn't work in dry ice conditions.

[@pumpkindog1]

Today we have moving map displays in the cockpit. This accident probably wouldn't have happened in today's world

[@ajs41]

Of course not, because GPS which tells you exactly where you are.

[@calcrappie8507]

You're flying to the end of the world and decide to leave the transponder in standby.

[@mattthrun-nowicki8641]

They didn’t. The transponder WAS being interrogated- read the CVR transcript. In addition, they made VHF contact at the same time

[@michaelosgood9876]

There are old pilots. There are bold pilots.....

[@brentsummers7377]

14:03 -14:20 Basically, Air NZ management & pilots were ignoring their own rules for conducting a safe operation of the sight seeing flights. The rule about maintaining 16000 feet would have kept every flight safe. Just a bad safety culture in place & possibly management exerting pressure on the pilots to make it happen for the passengers.

[@ajs41]

Would have kept every flight safe, but passengers wouldn't have seen much.

[@pirate3599]

Yes Totally correct, very poor safety culture

[@rhino6634]

This is beyond stupidity. Why as I pilot would for a second keep the airplane at 2k feet with zero visibility with high terrain and no idea where I am. No common sense

[@mattthrun-nowicki8641]

They had > 40 miles visibility. And they were confident they knew where they were.

[@woodenseagull1899]

The reputation and reliability of the DC-10 had a checkered past. Glad to see it, eventually withdrawn from service.....A plane with a "Curse " on it.

[@littleblackcar]

I used to live near Stapleton Airport in Denver, and everyone referred to them as “Death Chariot”-10s. I don’t think they were statistically any less safe than any other plane, there were just a few high-profile crashes.

[@woodenseagull1899]

We used to " Joke " ' You only need to buy a ticket one way...... saves money '. 55 recorded dangerous mechanical incidents in 40 years...It never looked right . It looked a brute! ...Rushed off the drawing board.!

[@DrGerard66]

No other previous pilot descended as low as Collins did in the conditions he had. Descending to a pitifully low 1500' in a mountainous region convered in snow under a cloud layer was reckless - even IF you're convinced your aircraft is somewhere it's not. The company were guilty of several failings that contributed to the accident but in my (and many other's) view the major share of culpability must go to those in control of the aircraft.

[@cchris874]

But couldn't it be argued that even if they were not justified in their confidence of location, an otherwise fastidious adherence to visual flight rules would nevertheless be safe. Did they have any way of knowing their visibility was impaired until the last 30 seconds or so?

[@DrGerard66]

@@cchris874 Yes. Firstly, if you look at the METARS on the day, it's almost literally impossible that they were truly VMC during the entire descent. Secondly - if they believed themselves to be where they supposed and were VMC, they ought to have identified Mt. Bird. Thirdly, any PPL level pilot knows it is possible for an entire mountain to disappear behind a low cloud base. These factors, as well as not responding to either of Brooks's expressions of concern amount to a colossal failure of situational awareness on the behalf of Jim Collins.

[@cchris874]

@@DrGerard66 Thank you very much for that reply. I have felt this crash generates over-the-top polarization on each side. Unlike the Mahon report, which IMO got it wrong, I am willing to say Captain Collins has to share in some of the responsibility, sure. But one thing I am convinced of was Collins' standing within the airline as one its most respected and meticulous. This is why, initially, fellow captain Gordon Vette refused to attribute this crash to the kind of massive failure he has been accused of. He was not someone to throw VFR to the wind in terms of casually dispensing with visibility requirements. I don't know how specific METARS is, but since you and I were not in the cockpit ourselves, unless these forecasts actually showed the exact cloud formations at the exact time of the crash, we are engaged in a bit of speculation. "Thirdly, any PPL level pilot knows it is possible for an entire mountain to disappear behind a low cloud base." This might well be true in general. But under this circumstance, they experienced "sector whiteout," which can cause the illusion of a false horizon line. They have an actual picture of this in Vette's book. You see what appears to be a distinct line with different contrast levels above and below. Had they seen undifferentiated white, then they would be guilty of a gross violation of VMC. But that's unlikely. I have read the transcripts and don't see any evidence of Collins' ignoring Brooke's concern. Maybe if you provide the exact words we could look at that.

[@DrGerard66]

@@cchris874 Thanks! It's nice to see nuanced thought. We'll never know how truly "respected" Collins was; but history is littered with examples of previously exemplary pilots guilty of major failures of judgement given the right circumstances. Ultimately, Collins's record before the day of the accident is largely irrelevant. Even meticulous humans are capable of not being so. The "sector whiteout" is often taken as fact but of course it is only theory - one that originated from Gordon Vette's brother. We'll never know what the pilots thought they saw. I rather think that once at 1500 feet (an impossibly low altitude) below cloud and above snow, they saw undifferentiated white. Regardless, they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Regarding Brooks's concern - during the descent he said "where's Erebus at the moment........... I'm just thinking about any high ground in the area, that's all" and later, at 1500' more definitively "I don't like this". Both these statements - especially given the unorthodox nature of descent - should've caused a prudent captain to at least pause and reflect. I don't think ALL the blame for the accident should be placed at the feet of the pilots. The company could, and should have done several things better. But definitely there were significant failures on behalf of the crew.

[@cchris874]

@@DrGerard66 I agree, any pilot can get into a rush no matter how experienced. I think that happened here to an extent. Yes, it's speculation what they all saw. In the Vette book, there is a picture taken from the helicopter approaching Erebus almost exactly one year later, and you can clearly see the appearance of a horizon line. It means there's reasonable doubt if the crew were actually violating VFR in this respect. I remember the comment about "where's Erebus in relation to us." indeed, pretty good proof the crew were not certain of there position as they assumed. But I don't see that this comment was unduly ignored. The "I don't like this comment" was according to Vette's analysis the result of him being further back in the cockpit, and thus the first to be "in the milk bottle," or total whiteout. But this came only seconds before impact, and they all were in agreement they needed to climb out of the situation. The lack of immediate emergency was due no doubt to the conviction they had just had 40+ miles of clear air ahead of them, and it would not be reasonable to suppose that a mountain was now right in front of them. Remember also their situational awareness was also based on "the coincidence of geography." The land they were seeing to either side confirmed their intended route, just where and how it would have appeared had they been running down McMurdo sound. I personally think there will never be complete resolution of the controversies in this event until someone can say definitively that the crew were not able to stay visual throughout, or that they had a way to determine their eyes were deceiving them. I have yet to see that proof.

[@davinasquirrel7672]

Sadly it was the "once in a lifetime experience". Very few live after slamming into a mountain.