What if Britain Wasn't An Island?

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Britain. The island that ruled the waves. Yet what if it had no waves to rule? There was once a time that Britain, and the North Sea didn't exist. Instead it was a single landmass called Doggerland. How would history have changed if Doggerland remained?
Special Thanks to Atlas Pro!
• Earth's Lost Islands
Twitter: / althistoryhub
Patreon: / alternatehistoryhub

[@AlternateHistoryHub]

The lesson here is Tolkien knew what he was talking about.

[@goroakechi6126]

Tolkien was the first “I told you so” writer

[@Bsweds32]

I thought it looked like Middle Earth.

[@darklordmalthric9814]

What if Japan won the imjin war

[@11thriddler17]

Well he did wanted to write mythes and legends for an older England/Europe

[@primrosevale1995]

Meaning by extension Awdry likely knew what he was talking about.

[@grisha5051]

Cody I’ve been subscribed to you for 7 years. When I was a kid you got me interested in history and now I’m a history major in college, so thank you!

[@alexking7262]

Congratulations man!

[@mongooseiv8336]

Jeez… it’s really been that long?

[@BoomerKingsley]

Fantastic! Well done 👍

[@grisha5051]

@@mongooseiv8336 It blows my mind too

[@Blk.Philip]

So your just going to college for fun not to make any money in the future huh? 😂

[@Honeybadger_525]

Speaking of LOTR, some believe that Doggerland was Tolkien's inspiration for the land of Beleriand in his mythology, i.e. the setting where many of the events of the Silmarillion take place. Both were originally hospitable and fertile lands inhabited by a variety of different peoples and both were eventually inundated by the sea.

[@Nastgardaren]

Yeah and Doggerland depicted here looks really similar to Beleriand also

[@warlordofbritannia]

So, Angband is under the North Sea? Because that actually makes too much sense…

[@DIEGhostfish]

Also Cimmeria from Robert E Howard's work (Conan etc) Not sure when people knew about Doggerland since he killed himself in like the mid 30s

[@christoffereilskov5006]

Yeah, much like several places like Isengard is in Denmark

[@zlinedavid]

Glad I wasn’t the only one who thought of Beleriand. The shape, the positioning of the rivers…somehow I doubt that was a coincidence. Does that make Britain Numenor?

[@WindFireAllThatKindOfThing]

"If there's anything an empire loves, it's nomadic horsemen right on their border." As a former Wal-Mart employee, I felt that.

[@mariekirstinebang5808]

??

[@WindFireAllThatKindOfThing]

@@mariekirstinebang5808 RV's

[@bale9320]

@@WindFireAllThatKindOfThing ??

[@zhcultivator]

​​@@bale9320 I think RV means recreational videos here.

[@TheBestestKitty]

Cody accidentally discovering that Ice-Age Europe was just Middle Earth is golden. Just wait, we'll discover elf populations hidden deep somewhere and it'll all come together.

[@MTC008]

if this doggerland never sink beneath the sea we will have a video called "what if UK was an island?"

[@kmeanxneth]

elf language was Based on Finnish and Finnish mythology have elves. (i don't mean like the Christmas ones, those are like gnomes but in English they are called elf too)

[@derduebel]

Dutch fishermen continue to bring mammoth bones to the surface, and even rivers have names that refer to a large common river.

[@accountnew7030]

​@@kmeanxneth elves are more like ukrainian people. with all due respect finns are a bit too ugly to be a reference for the elves

[@TAMThomasTAM]

As soon as I saw the map I thought "looks a bit like Middle-Earth" When you mentioned the horse goddess Eonain, I thought "like Eowyn?" Then you said the nomadic kingdoms would be like Rohan and I started to realise. And when you mentioned Gondor, I knew these coincidences were too much. Looking on Wikipedia, evidence was established of Doggerland in the 1800s. In 1897, when Tolkien was a child, H. G. Wells released "A Story of the Stone Age" that explored the concept of Doggerland. In 1931, six years before "The Hobbit" was released, a trawler hauled up more evidence of societies that had been living in Doggerland five thousand years ago. Middle-Earth is supposed to be a distant history of our real Earth, a mythology of Britain, set SIX THOUSAND years ago... Holy shit, Tolkien literally did base Middle-Earth off of Doggerland, that's so cool!

[@vladprus4019]

Than there is Beleriand and yes, there is no way this is all coincidence.

[@1mol831]

I think Polynesia with its islands will be the first to industrialise in this world then… for some reason. There is also of a chance of doggerland becoming a Raj like Māori colony

[@BrazilianImperialist]

@@1mol831 ?

[@TomorrowWeLive]

@@1mol831 wat

[@TomorrowWeLive]

@@1mol831 it's impossible for archipelagos/tropics to industrialise. You really don't understand how anything works, do you?

[@dixievfd55]

Tolkien definitely considered how geography would affect his kingdoms both when writing the stories that would become the Silmarillion, but also how Numenor and later Arnor and Gondor evolved. He also considered how geography affected Sauron's tactics during both the War of the Last Alliance and the War of the Ring.

[@Jimbly985]

The only thing I do wish about Tolkien and his geography is that he mostly used natural barriers as borders, which sure a lot of the times is done in real life. However there is also a lot of wacky stuff that is done, from colonies, bad decolonozation, trade routes, or just historical events. Like for example a lot of eastern Europe's borders is based off the carpathia mountain range, except Romania. Romania was 4 seperate countries which united into one and the carpathia mountain range actually runs through the middle of the country. Stuff like that is interesting and fantasy maps don't usually go that far. Another example is Nambia which has a strange panhandle, the reason for that is the Germans wanted access to the river that lead towards India, so the reason for the panhandle is literally for access to trade routes. I wish more fantasy would try wacky stuff, because wacky stuff happens often when it comes to borders in real life. Tolkien was one of the best when it came to fantasy maps, and there is some very interesting things in his map of Middle earth. But I find it lacks a bit of the wacky shit and follows natural borders a bit too much (mountain ranges, rivers, etc.)

[@harrymorris2361]

As a Brit I can’t imagine a more horrifying scenario than having a border with the French.

[@Aniaas1]

don't worry - in this world, there aren't any french

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

there wouldnt be any "French" as we think of them. thered be entirely alternate peoples living in most of Western Europe

[@RedbadofFrisia]

No English, French or Dutch. One can only dream.

[@kameronjones7139]

@@RedbadofFrisia what a wonderful world

[@ancestralparanoia]

@@kameronjones7139 fr

[@Faranya]

I'm left intensely curious what this would have meant for the Mongol Empire's push into Europe, with an existing society of historically nomadic horsemen just a little bit farther west...

[@dragon_ninja_2186]

Man imagine if somehow Mongolian and Lividian horsemen met in Central Europe. Those battles I would love to learn about.

[@alexross1816]

You know how the Hungarians are related to the Uralic peoples despite being separated by thousands of miles? It'd be interesting to see a potentially Mongolic people smack dab in the middle of Northern Europe thanks to favorable terrain.

[@wires-sl7gs]

Livadia would still be pretty far regardless, probably around 1000 miles from Hungary, which the Mongols only Briefly invaded but didn't quite conquer. The Best we could get is someone using Livadian Mercenaries against them.

[@ericcampbell503]

Genghis Khan: "It's free real estate."

[@ecurewitz]

Maybe the Levatis would invade Mongolia instead

[@DderwenWyllt]

I'm Welsh and grew up in a Welsh village and I can confirm even in this universe, we are 100% the Shire and 100% Hobbits, my county is literally called Carmarthenshire, which is an Anglicised name for Sir Gaerfyrddin, which in English means "The Shire of Merlins Fortress".

[@ObamaBinLaden525]

That is the most fantasy name I have ever seen.

[@Finnbobjimbob]

No, it’s not. It’s based off the village of sarehole where he grew up in rural England, he even said “The Shire is based on rural England, and not any other country in the world”

[@DderwenWyllt]

@@Finnbobjimbob I wasn't actually being serious, I know he never visited my village, just pointing out how Tolkienesque my county in Wales is. I do know he based Sindarin on Cymraeg, so if anything elves would be more apt, but honestly if you met the people of my village, you'd definitely be thinking "Those are tall hobbits".

[@Draconightfury]

Incorrect, middle earth is in New Zealand. And the shire is in Matamata

[@coltendavison4351]

@@Draconightfury that’s where movies filmed it, books were inspired of Europe and England

[@Longshanks1690]

I can’t help but feel this should have been a whole series since it’s such a fascinating subject, not just a 15 minute video.

[@Wrath_Incarnate]

I know that this is really late but- 1)That could be said for a lot of Cody’s videos. 2) The issue is, he realistically can’t, not in a way that he likes talking about these subjects. As he said in the “Mu” video he doesn’t really like diving too much into the specifics for videos like these since, as he says it, he’s essentially making it all up. Changing geography, especially for stuff like this, essentially wipes the slate of history clean completely. There’s no telling how or why history would take form in this world since, effectively, the history of Europe would fundamentally change at its core. Not only is all of the Northern European Countries completely different or just nonexistent as a result of different geography and cultural mixing, but we have no way to know what exactly replaces them, as we can’t know what the cultures of those who would continue on in this timeline that died after Doggerland sunk in ours or how they would change and develop over time. Not to mention how these new cultures would interact with the rest of the world and the butterfly effect that would cause on say Rome, North Africa, or even China I know that’s a bit long, but all to say, he can’t really make a “series” or anything more than this video without eventually just making a historical fiction story of this alternate world, which isn’t really what AltHistoryHub is about since it more or less tells the general strokes and possibilities of how the world would be different if events went different. Not to say he won’t potentially make a book on the subject, since he did that with the concept of Atlantropa, but I’m just saying, that’s not really how Cody does things typically. Again, sorry for such along reply after you probably forgot about this initial comment.

[@Genericmug]

It's fine

[@Jackuves]

I can definitely imagine a huge Napoleonic battle on the outskirts of London

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

why would napoleon be born to begin with

[@Matttheyapp]

​@@godemperorofmankind3.091I think he means a battle that would take place in an era that would have similiar weapons and technology to our napoleonic era.

[@pjthehomelessmage]

We would essentially get Rohan. With horses and flatlands and Celtic and Germanic influence. I love this.

[@warlordofbritannia]

Lol “Where was the Earl of Wessex when Northumbria fell?!”

[@stevemcgroob4446]

@@warlordofbritannia "The beacons are lit! Rome calls for aid."

[@davidshepherd1634]

@@stevemcgroob4446 And Livadia shall answer!

[@STAGg3r1ng]

"It would be like the Balkansand everythingt that it entails" as a Bulgarian im betting that the horse riders will have a lot of fun especially if they don't border a 2000 year old empire.

[@vladprus4019]

"It would be like the Balkansand everything that it entails" - question is: who would be those "Balkans" version of the Ottomans?

[@ericaeleodora9787]

@@vladprus4019 ummmm ¿france? i know them was not that powerfull in a beginning, but they could try to conquer their neighbors eventually.

[@nekakonjina9624]

@@vladprus4019 maybe the Nordic countries

[@WynnofThule]

I'd imagine the Bronze age would have been very different. Tin deposits found in Brittany and South West England would obviously not have as easy coastal access, and the much colder temperatures in Central Europe would have made mining in the uplands of France and North German Plain much harder and more treacherous. Then again, Doggerland might have had it's own unique deposits.

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

we already know of some deposits that Doggerland would have, The North Sea Oil deposits would now be far more easily accesable (no need to build giant floating rigs, just a normal rig would do)

[@jamesmccallum8641]

This such an interesting scenario. I'd love to see more but I guess it's kinda hard to expand on these alternate geography scenarios before it just becomes low fantasy

[@alexross1816]

He wrote a book about Atlantropa, he could write a book about Livadia.

[@wires-sl7gs]

Speaking of Low Fantasy, I honestly wouldn't mind if he made up Low Fantasy What ifs and Scenarios, or Just Fantasy Scenarios in general.

[@Aximill]

What if Zealandia was above water? Great collaboration video.

[@TheAtlasReview]

The way I see it, following alternate histories where changes become drastic (either immediately or over a long time), you have two choices; you can either keep everything fairly vague and just talk about what trends are different, or you can go specific but acknowledge that this is based on very little and is essentially speculative fiction.

[@Patterrz]

Making real Rohan is worth sacrificing the UK for

[@Joshisepic2222]

I would sacrifice the UK for 5 bucks

[@dixielad4239]

This

[@Littleyeetboi]

@@Joshisepic2222 I would sacrifice the UK for nothing.

[@horricule451]

Nothing of value was lost

[@Attaxalotl]

I'd ask what the UK did, but uh... it's far less time consuming to ask what they didn't.

[@jamiejamie9549]

Sometimes ill go a whole 6 months, maybe even longer without watching these. But I always come back to them, you have a way with words and creativity, im really enjoying writing whilst watching/listening to your videos. You're doing good work sir!

[@0th_Law]

Thing to consider: what if the "Grand River Valley," or whatever it'd be known as, becomes another "Cradle of Civilization," like the Nile, Indus, or Yellow rivers? The region may end up being like China 2.0, only with Tin & stuff instead of Silk & stuff.

[@warlordofbritannia]

Too cold that far north probably

[@GodwynDi]

There is suspicion that it actually was. There is a sudden spontaneous development of monolith building in all the areas surrounding Doggerland after it starts to become uninhabitable. The thought is that they were a settled developed culture that emigrated to surrounding areas bringing the technology with them.

[@ommsterlitz1805]

Yeah because England without an easy way out of fighting France directly instead of pillaging India to pay mercenaries to do the warring they would be instantly conquered and you would actually get a somewhat French Empire similar to China in both population and a stronger "center of the world" mindset covering Europe by the time of Louis the XIV

[@shinsenshogun900]

Gallia Hibernia, the land of tin: Livadia Occidentis, Tina, Zinnland, Irheim These names are what could define historical Gondor/Arnor in West Livadia (historical Eriador/"Doggerland") could be

[@0th_Law]

@@ommsterlitz1805 That’s… assuming a _lot_ of history that very easily could not have happened.

[@SC-zq6cu]

The reason doggerland was a grassland was because ice age was a drier era than modern times. If doggerland remained today it would not be a grassland. It would have a temperate rainforest, at least near the western coastal regions. Further inwards more eastern european conifer like features would set in and they would set in from far more western region than we see in our version of europe. Think the vegetations of poland and western russia found all the way at germany and probably even eastern france. This is because, the presence of wayy more land would obstruct the warm oceanic current much more easily in the alt. world than it does in our world.

[@frankenstein6677]

It's a combination of factors. We can't ignore the potential biological control of vegetation. Which is basically the grazing pressure by herbivores.

[@SC-zq6cu]

@@frankenstein6677 Look at ireland. Is it a grassland ?Thats what the regions near the western coast of doggerland would be like. Of course biological control is a factor, but it becomes less and less relevant as the land area becomes larger. What you said would be very influential on an island, but doggerland is a part of a continent so i dont think it is that important here.

[@tequestaorangejuice6673]

Now do a video on Sundaland! It connected Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines to mainland Asia. I imagine itd be all forests, and the Indian Ocean Silk Road would probably not exist because there wouldnt be a method of going from China to India by sea since the Straights of Malak are now filled with land. Maybe also talk about Sahul, which connected New Guinea and Tasmania to mainland Australia.

[@tabletgenesis3439]

You could go from India to China through the gap between Borneo and Sulawesi but it's a longer route

[@Kidd-In-Charge]

Love the scenario, love the presentation. The VHS-style history lesson was very fun, and even the Nord ad read was probably the most fun one you've done. 9/10.

[@Perririri]

Normie

[@Kidd-In-Charge]

@@Perririri In what way?

[@notvonbayern9202]

Now here's a question. How would this affect the trade of Britanic tin during the bronze age? Tin was imported from Britain to the Bronze age civilizations through both the North Sea and overland. Now overland goes through plains and the North sea doesn't really exsist?

[@birisi916]

It wouldn't change a lot.

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

@@birisi916 actually it might be more of it. More land above ground more tin deposits Probably would make it slightly cheaper.

[@0th_Law]

Assuming the Channel River is of similar importance as the Nile & other rivers, we may have seen a "Western China," so to speak. Complete with nomadic horse-raiders to the north!

[@lhemnenn4713]

Most civilization of the Bronze age imported Tin from the region we know as Afghanistan, it was the closest great deposit for the middle East but also for Asia. While the Tin of Cornwall is also one of the biggest Tin deposit in the world, it was in the end dangerous and costly, still some merchants back then did make the trip (from back and forth) but it was not the norm ... In fact I heard the only people that could afford that kind of venture long term was the Northern Cannanites/ Phoenicians ....

[@TheKeksadler]

@@0th_Law I was suspecting a similar setting. Either a Gaulic or Latin-based Western "China" could be possible if you subscribe to the theory that close proximity to horse-based nomadic societies creates centralized empires (China, Iran, Byzantines, Russians).

[@Canada1994]

As a Zelda fan I LOVE that Link's horse Epona is named after the Celtic Goddess of Horses, ponies and donkeys. Also I must point out that the Scots originated in Ireland and came to Scotland after the fall of Roman Britain.

[@overkoppsbaiter0714]

there was no ireland or scotland back then

[@joshwenn989]

@@overkoppsbaiter0714 What he means is that the people who becamse the Scots originated in what's now Northern Ireland. At the time they were called the Scoti and they invaded the Pictish lands during the dark ages, conquering the natives and obliterating their culture.

[@dyent]

@@joshwenn989 Scoti weren't a specific group of people, it was just the Latin name for all the Gaelic people of the British isles.

[@angiki9988]

Speaking of land being underwater, what if the Bering land bridge never formed, and the Americas weren't settled until the Europeans (and possibly Polynesians) sailed over?

[@fotisk-sg2sh]

There's a book for this if I remember, It's called "a different flesh"

[@mal_3157]

I doubt the Polynesians could sail that far north

[@Grason20]

​@@mal_3157 The Americas include south America such as Peru and Chile, where it shares latitudes with Polynesia.

[@mal_3157]

@@Grason20 I suppose they could make the trip considering they reached Hawaii

[@lucamckenn5932]

​@@mal_3157 I used to be skeptical about ancient ocean sailing but if Leif Erickson could reach America with 15th century (could be off) boats anything is possible. Just a matter of routing and avoiding storms/rough waters I'd imagine.

[@Daniel-vg5ld]

What is interesting was that even after the last ice age and the sea levels rose, britain was still connected to France via a land bridge, near the cliffs of Dover. However, since this landbridge was made of chalk, a large flood caused by a glacial dam burst, called a mega flood, utterly destroyed the landbridge. So a more realistic scenario would be if that bridge was never destroyed

[@rogueascendant6611]

Actually there were many factors about the caused of Doggerland sinking. Just saying that it went under caused by a large flood is an understatement. It's a lot more complex and I can't really give details that much. Just looked it up like Atlas Pro. In simplification, GLACIERS WEIGHT A TONS AND CAUSED A DENT OVER EUROPE CRUSTAL PLATE. DOGGERLAND IS LIKE A SEESAW.

[@lewissmith5759]

England would have blown up the bridge to avoid baguette invasion

[@NotSomeJustinWithoutAMoustache]

@@rogueascendant6611 I think he was talking about the Storrega Megatsunamis

[@larmoth401]

Fascinating stuff, but did you know that the history of Doggerland is still known and celebrated throughout Rural Britain, it's folklore practised by a vast and varied community of Doggers who can be seen keeping history alive by Dogging in car parks throughout the British Isles. If you're interested there are plenty of videos availible online or if you live in the British Isles then feel free to go out and look for them yourselves, they are very welcoming and love it when people come out and watch.

[@exactlybasically8603]

I’ve been waiting for what feels like forever for another upload. Between this channel and pointless hub, you gotta be one of my favorite youtubers. Thanks for the cool new concept man.

[@pja6476]

I genuinely hope you make more videos like this. Not everything has to be super extreme realism alt-history. Have some fun, make your own history, make your own countries and cultures. Have massive wars, victories, failures, and blunders.

[@docpossum2460]

However I will say that if you do fun alternate history don't try to act like it's comparable to the serious ones.

[@bobbyferg9173]

When you started to make the Lord of the Rings comparisons, I thought that would be pretty cool. But when you said it would be like the Balkans… well let’s just say there is already one too many Balkans in our timeline

[@valentinkambushev4968]

We love you too.....

[@Attaxalotl]

There are three too many Balkans

[@isaacwilcox3010]

Loved the segment from the perspective of a historian in that world. Would love to see more things like it.

[@therealspeedwagon1451]

I want to see more alternate geography. What if continents like Mu or Hyperborea were real?

[@exciton9861]

Congratulation he made a video on Mu

[@therealspeedwagon1451]

@@exciton9861 next we need Hyperborea and Lemuria

[@alphaundpinsel2431]

Hyperborea is real, it's called, "Russia"

[@trygveplaustrum4634]

*No nation could survive with the name "Doggerland."* It'd fall rapidly from its own embarrassment.

[@Pacbandit13]

It would be dogged

[@h-Films]

Turkey

[@A_Haunted_Pancake]

I had to look up what "Dogging" means in English. Now I DO feel it's a tragedy Doggerland is gone 🤪

[@PhantomOfficial07]

@@h-Films really it's called Türkiye, so it's not that bad.

[@h-Films]

@PhantomOfficial07 it's been 2 years

[@mitchellgeorge6031]

After this video, I like to imagine Middle Earth taking place in this scenario with Rohan, Gondor, and Arnor fighting against the Romans and Gauls, which would be known in their languages as Mordor.

[@thesquishedelf1301]

Slavs - Rhûn Rome - Mordor Gauls - Haradrim?

[@balashibuyeeter2704]

What would be angmar? The vikings?

[@balashibuyeeter2704]

And let Iceland be numenor and north America be Aman

[@shadowofhawk55]

@@balashibuyeeter2704 The Norse yeah. Fuck, does that mean Arminius is the Witch King?

[@deleetiusproductions3497]

Who would that make Sauron?

[@pandasantan3307]

"I just made Britain disappear from the face of the earth, and you're questioning my decision." I am pretty sure Cody is the mad god of the timelines he creates.

[@primebandet8937]

Canonically, Middle Earth is supposed to be a text like Beowulf from even further in the past. In my headcanon LotR and the hobbit are mythological stories from doggerland and that the medieval technology used in the world was lost once the sea rose like Atlantis or numenor

[@Raykkie]

"What if there was a second Mongol Empire just north of France" is a scary thought. We finally banished the Brits, but at what cost?

[@pocarski]

Well the difference is, the Mongols were, well, the Mongols - a more or less culturally uniform group. If you stick like 5 different cultures into a landmass the size of France with almost no natural borders, they'd probably be too busy killing each other to do any kind of Mongol business.

[@XXXTENTAClON227]

@@pocarski forget that; Genghis Khan was the Empire. No Genghis no party.

[@XenonPrimeSBSV]

@@pocarski Which would be fine until they generated their own great conqueror. Then you have an incredibly violent group of people sitting on vast mineral and agricultural wealth finally looking outwards.

[@tranquoccuong890-its-orge]

@@pocarski yep the mongols were a bunch of nomadic tribes too busy killing each others & raiding china's north to create any empire, until genghis khan came along it is now on the other hand, its not ensured that a similar great conqueror would have eventually risen in lividia so the possible future is uncertain

[@gwinnr6134]

Oh we're still here, on horses this time

[@mase747]

Watched my first Alt History Hub video ages ago in Undergrad. Now I’m listening to it while writing my Masters Thesis with my three year old staring at the screen soaking all this up. Thanks man!

[@gabrielhoyer7097]

Just imagine Balkans-level racism and infighting across all of Europe. Good times.

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

Balkans plus the Caucasus level.

[@RedbadofFrisia]

That is if nationalisn as we know it is ever invented. That only became a thing in Napoleonic era. This would change Europe so much that nothing like that is guaranteed.

[@aurelianus1308]

Balkan conflicts are national now, once tribal. You are very foolish if you think nationalism invented intergroup conflicts as you imply.

[@RedbadofFrisia]

@@aurelianus1308 i'm not implying that. Neither am i saying that conflicts between groups haven't existed before nationalism. I'm just saying that the scale and reason of potential animosity between hypothetical groups is impossible to ascertain with this big of a divergence.

[@erichtomanek4739]

There is a book trilogy by Stephen Baxter on this alternate history: Stone Spring Bronze Autumn Iron Winter I enjoyed them; they are a fun read. Another excellent video, good mix of comedy and seriousness.

[@JulesFaraday22]

Thanks for the recommendation!

[@fauzirahman3285]

I was just going to recommend this. It's a good book that explores this, and the people managed to keep the land intact by building embankments and sort of keep the land from being inundated by the sea similar to how the Dutch is able to reclaim land from the sea. They actually revealed the name of this place in one of the chapters but I don't want to spoil that here.

[@tranquoccuong890-its-orge]

wait but what about summer

[@ericward8459]

@@tranquoccuong890-its-orge The middle book is called "Bronze Summer" Op mistyped

[@ericward8459]

I was looking for someone hear who knew those books!

[@bradfordhatch5085]

11:15 - 11:30 - Robert E Howard described this same river as the boundary between Pits and the more settled Hyborian civilizations in his Conan the Barbarian series. He called it *Thunder River.*

[@SkittytheKid]

So what you're saying is Tolkien had access to alternate reality history books and that's where he got Rohan and other parts of Middle Earth from? Understood

[@jakeaurod]

Maybe he went there through C.S. Lewis's warddrobe...

[@ParasaurolophusEwan]

A novel set in this world world be great. I'm imagining a sort of adventure story about whoever lives in Gaul (Romans, Gauls,Germanics, Britons, Slavs, maybe) or some other western place ending up in the New World. Or a story about a Cossack-like celtic warrior for the Romanized Lands to the south. This world is a sandbox! Since he said it would be like the Balkans, maybe the Germanized lands to the northeast of Livadia or the Picts and Britons would form a sort of Yugoslavia! If you want a WW2- era war story, you could have a giant war in the region! Imagine a kursk-like battle to the south of Dover! Edit: there could also be a story about a climate crisis as Livadi refugees flee the flooding steppes, much to the chagrin of themselves and of the Celts in Britain.

[@JulesFaraday22]

Well, well. Looks like I ain’t the only story teller in this comment section.

[@ParasaurolophusEwan]

​@QuantumMeme nah I don't like Hobbits

[@youngoden4106]

I love that one of the most consistent things in my life is cody asking the real questions. Good shit brotha

[@fernsong8558]

Id seriously love further lore on this alternate universe, its so damn interesting

[@jakeaurod]

Read the Lord of the Rings...

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

@@jakeaurod why?

[@docpossum2460]

@@godemperorofmankind3.091 There's alot of similarities.

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

@@docpossum2460 not much. maybe one vaguely similar kingdom. thats it

[@papaicebreakerii8180]

I wouldn’t get my hopes too high. Civilizations probably wouldn’t be able to withstand the climate. Doggerland would most likely be like Northern Canada

[@ztk211]

"where's hobbit town? is wales hobbit town?" is my new favorite quote on this channel lol

[@pavelmachytka5604]

''Im going on an Adventure!''

[@balashibuyeeter2704]

It's actually called hobbiton but okay

[@MT-yn5yn]

Love how this practically describes Skyrim minus the magic and snow

[@TheSovietSuperpower]

Very fun to see you branching into alternate geography, which actually gives me an idea I'd love for you to weigh in on that I guess could be folded into another alternate geography scenario if you like? What would happen if North American Bison had been domesticated by the time Europeans arrived? Or perhaps more broadly, what if North America had more livestock that could be domesticated? Obviously the Llama would still exist, but what if other species were also brought across (here's the geography tie-in) the Bering Strait Land Bridge if it never closed? Imagine an America where the Great Plains are effectively the African Savanah: impenetrable by white Settlers for perhaps half a century of more thanks to the domestication of Bison and other livestock leading to the Native Americans having their own plagues and diseases that they've grown immune to over centuries while Europeans would be decimated by contact with them, like Malaria in Africa. We'd see an entirely different continent as well, you'd have two conjoined continents to begin with, but also the existence of a land bridge would alter Oceanic currents leading to changing climate and of course a totally different relationship between Europe and the Americas,, as there would be these Native societies holed up in what were essentially "fortresses" in the Rocky Mountains (like the Inca in the Andes) or Steppe-esque societies but with diseases that kept Settlers at bay as well.

[@nathansnaza8363]

That question could actually be rephrased as "What would North America be like if it's horses and camels hadn't died out?" Because horses and camels originated in North America before migrating into the old world 2-3 million yrs. ago and then their native population in the America's died out due to a few factors.

[@hobbiefox-pastrycat4568]

Yes I want this now

[@djamelben9221]

ive always thought about such a scenario but with little more parallel world american horses for horses toxodon for cattle macrauchenia for camels hippidion for donkeys pecarry for pigs maybe even war mammoths or mastodons

[@Bundpataka]

@@djamelben9221 maybe Pygmy mammoths are domesticated in California and spread through the Americas

[@BLINDrOBOTFILMS]

Native Americans with bison cavalry is an alt history I didn't know I needed.

[@azzayoba]

Interesting that you made this video after your conversation with Atlas Pro on Earth's lost islands. Islands are way more important than we think!

[@pavelmachytka5604]

Nothing stays the same, for long here.

[@muckinabaht]

I love this -- the changes to world history would be so profound as to create an unrecognizable world. Great video.

[@erichunsaker4969]

Huh, how convenient that I was literally just learning about Doggerland the other day Edit: I was learning about it in a class about Britain's origins to 1688

[@zachryder3150]

Could you figuratively have learnt about it?

[@TrashMammal2002]

Great Britain not being an island would be a very weird sight

[@wormwalll6557]

yhjfvm,

[@Khloya69]

In a timeline where it was never an island, seeing it as an island would be weird. All about what we are used to.

[@XenonPrimeSBSV]

@@Khloya69 I suppose for those folks our western Europe would be some kind of weird super post apocalypse set so far after the destruction of such prominent cultures and people.

[@ryshow9118]

I can't believe you managed to get History Man! Nice catch brother

[@urukhai8196]

I've been watching you for 7 years, and I must say, by far, that this is the best scenario you've put out. Cheers to you!

[@skooma103]

Historically, Britain has never fielded a large army. It has never had to worry about a land invasion since the English Channel is one of the greatest natural defences. This is why historically Britain has invested most of its resources into the navy. During the 18th and 19th centuries no other nation took their navy as seriously as Britain, and what followed was complete Anglo maritime dominance. This maritime dominance is what fuelled Pax Brittanica - nearly 100 yrs of uninterrupted global British dominance. However, if Britain was connected to mainland Europe, it would have to divert resources from the navy into the armed forces. In this timeline, The Royal Navy would be a mere shadow of its former self and Britain would never achieve the same levels of maritime dominance. I suspect the British state would get steamrolled by stronger armies from Prussia or France.

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

Non of these nations would exist. Angul the supposed ancestor of the Angle tribes wouldn't of even been born.

[@wires-sl7gs]

Britian and it's culture probably wouldn't even exist here, especially since the Anglo-Saxons wouldn't exist here, and same with the Prussians as Eastern Europe is Much Colder, and Gaul would Probably be Conquered by the Livadians rather than the Franks, so no France Either. Alot of Countries probably wouldn't exist here.

[@bruceclounie3716]

Or - might have kept its French colony after Henry V

[@dragon_ninja_2186]

Britain wouldn’t even exist at all. I not even sure of Prussia or even France either.

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

if Britain was connected to mainland Europe, it wouldnt be called Britain, it would just be a part of France essentially.

[@grahamnlegos]

11:49 sail facing wrong way

[@PhoenicksUK]

The whole area of Doggerland being above sea-level asks great questions & Cody does a good job of showing the potentially massive changes. But what if only a rump of Doggerland existed? In places this land is only about 30m below the waves & if only it was a bit higher there would an island the size of Wales sitting between East Yorkshire and Denmark. Who would live there & what implications would that have on the development of England as a nation?

[@FM_1819]

3:55 for a second I though he would say Hyperborea and I nearly pissed myself laughing

[@pavelmachytka5604]

1:35 Atlas pro. 3:59 'The story of Livadia' 9:27 The story of Livadia ends. 12:16 Essentially, it's Rohan. 12:37 Where's Hobbit town? is wales Hobbit town? 13:51 The Sponsor.

[@moki031698]

I loved the VHS multiverse segment. You should do more of those in the future.

[@EvilParagon4]

An alternate geography scenario I've always wondered about is what if the Caucasus Mountains didn't exist. The Black Sea (and thus, Mediterranean) just continues into the Caspian. This scenario would dramatically affect history so much that it would literally change timelines before the Romans even existed. Lots of Bronze Age Stuff goes on in such a world.

[@oliversherman2414]

Britain: lol we've got the channel to keep us as an island Goggerland: has entered the chat Britain: confused screaming

[@turn2829]

Great video! Loved the collaboration with Atlas Pro I was thinking if you considered the great migration of people during the Bronze Age and how that in a way created the "sea people" ultimatly being part of the destruction of the Bronze Age empires, and with Doggerland offering a different continent/climate might have had a great impact on that

[@conserva-chan2735]

Please do a video on if the Sino-Sovoet split never happened or was patched up in the 70s. It would be awesome.

[@Lux_Aeterna04]

I’ve been watching you since I was 11 years old you really made me interested in history so much, thank you 😊

[@MemTMCR]

I just love love how norway still would've had essentially the same dominating sea border and would still likely be a sea and fishing people

[@ashcoria1268]

Cool to see you reached 2 million subs. When can we expect to see an alternate countries 5?

[@harryg9976]

One thing worth considering here - north sea oil. That's gonna be a lot more accessible and profitable than it was in our own timeline. The Saudi Arabia of europe?

[@jakeaurod]

But maybe a lot less fish...

[@thesquishedelf1301]

Probably more like Venezuela - Saudi Arabia basically only has oil and historic resources (I.e. Mecca.) This country would have fertile lands and plentiful natural resources other than oil as well.

[@amazingstorm2783]

Can we bring back the “So that happened” podcast. Cuz hearing them talk about how “things” are right now would be awesome

[@thismuricanboi7869]

Science: *exists* Cody: Unacceptable

[@ricaard6959]

I have a alternate history similar to this, what would the world be like if the Zambezi river wasn't redirected? There was a lake where the Magkadigadi pans are today, that was fed by the Zambezi and Okavango, which connected the endorheic basin of the Okavango delta to the Atlantic ocean via the Orange river, it would be interesting to imagine how Southern Africa would develop if that much water wasn't directed away.

[@n1p1n1pn1p]

Thanks for using the name Markham. It works well. It’s also a pretty cool surname for a pretty damn cool family. That’s it

[@laurabryan6938]

Yes Rohan would be awesome imagine the culture and the stories that these people could have told

[@ItsButterBean1020]

Imagine elements of Germanic, Gaelic and Saxon cultures coalescing together

[@CruderQuotient1]

Imagine a world where you could visit the British Savannah

[@BrycePerry]

This one was super fun!

[@TraGamer1606]

I thought the northern passage video was supposed to happen next? Either way I’m happy for a a video

[@thebiss1846]

We could've had real life Rohan? WE COULD'VE HAD REAL LIFE ROHAN???

[@pavelmachytka5604]

YYEEEEESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@rimfire8217]

Now Now, We Still have the Sioux and the Lakota. Unless your not an American in which case Ha Ha!!! Hail our Pomo-Kamita

[@Master_artz]

What if Britain wasn't an island? Isle of man: Welp my name is pointless now.

[@kyle9974]

Video starts at 0:00

[@Jxbtty]

thank you so much man i couldnt find it

[@crappusmaximus1268]

Lol

[@soopy6667]

One of the things I find interesting is the fact that Livadia would likely be the most colonisable section of the European North. The existence of Livadia would likely make a much more distinct culture in the east just because of the colder climates. Any major empires would likely be off more Southern latitudes or any nation that ever has the power to unify the Livadian grasslands. Navies and possibly colonisation will likely happen a lot later in time as there is much less naval focus, as no islands mean there is no need for significant navies to be made and as mentioned, any wars will likely be fully land based on horses

[@SmolBloof]

Alternate history where Cody became a history channel narrator.

[@petersmythe6462]

This greatly expands the north European plains. I could see some HUGE countries forming there.

[@ElBreadini]

Please do cover something about if Justinian was successful. There’s a lot of stuff that went wrong in Justinian reign like the plague and Persians so it’d be awesome to see someone cover it :D

[@lhemnenn4713]

Emperor Justinian was technically successful to reclaim Italy and Africa (Roman name for today Tunisia), but the problem is that the campaign in the peninsula basically bankrupted the Eastern Roman Empire, and those wars was so devastating that the region was unstable for centuries ... Later Emperors didn't believe it keeping Rome was worth it ...

[@lhemnenn4713]

That said you are right, if they have been lucky it would have been interesting ...

[@jakeaurod]

Or what if the proposed volcanic eruption of 536 didn't happen?

[@Fredfredbug4]

The Lord of the Rings being the mythology of an alternate Doggerland is now a fan theory.

[@davidpumpkinsjr.5108]

What if all of the Earth's oceans were (and had always been) fresh water instead of salt water.

[@zionifl9467]

Well, I guess the short answer would be: Rain. Lots of it. Every single day.

[@Croz89]

An earth without a lot of salt. For the seas not to be salty there's got to be no salt for them to accumulate.

[@i_likemen5614]

We wouldn't have water problems then

[@NuggetOG]

welp, the entirety of the history of the earth, all the way back to when life first started would be completly different. Its like interpreting what life would be like on a different planet.

[@alexjv1370]

@@NuggetOG Way more Coastal cities, that’s for sure.

[@cyn_1]

1:02 I dont question your decision!

[@ГлотательныйГусь]

AlternateHistoryHub: 10% alternate history 90% explaining why it doesnt make sense to imagine more alternate history

[@CornDogJohn]

"I just made britain disappear from the face of the earth, how dare you question me" Im not questioning you, I'm applauding you

[@justbread4570]

1:07 the good ending

[@oconnorwilliam01]

How so?

[@justbread4570]

@@oconnorwilliam01 i hate england

[@Deano-Dron81]

Cry

[@lesterjr315]

I’m not gonna lie to you. The algorithm just showed me you’re videos today, and when I was looking to see if knowledgehub and any more videos I could watch, yours popped up. Confusion at first because you’re voices are different but only slightly so I got about three minutes into the video before I did some googling and found you’re wiki ! Didn’t know you where Tyler’s brother and you actually started both channels. Tldr I didn’t know you had a channel untill today and now I’m gonna subscribe because I really like you’re brothers channel and I now like yours too. Thanks for the content fam and thank you for you and you’re brothers hard work and dedication.

[@joshs3066]

Dear Americans, It's pronounced the river Thames 'T-em-ss' - not 'Fame-ss' - aside from that, amazing video as usual.

[@frankdecron1306]

All my homies miss Doggerland. RIP

[@nemanjasimic4423]

10:10 Okay, now I'm hyped about potential tropical Russians video!

[@Wait-l9p]

the funny thing is, russia did attempt to colonize hawaii

[@trygveplaustrum4634]

*Looking forward to the alternate history Zapatslavia* (West Slavs, like Yugoslavia)

[@Ggdivhjkjl]

Aren't the Poles the West Slavs?

[@Filuminat]

@@Ggdivhjkjl poles czechs and slovaks

[@Filuminat]

@@Ggdivhjkjl poles czechs and slovaks

[@brickchannel347]

@@Ggdivhjkjl poles czechs and slovaks

[@tententononce2570]

@@brickchannel347 poles czechs and slovaks

[@RealCeress]

It’s a weird question and frankly dumb. Whenever somebody brings it up in relation to WW2 saying “Britain wouldn’t have survived if it wasn’t an island”. Well yea but Britain wouldn’t be Britain if it wasn’t an island, Germany wouldn’t be Germany if Central Europe was an island.

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

britain would have been far more French and Germanic in culture so Germany would have seen them as a potential ally. not that that would ever happen. doggerland existing is such a butterfly effect that Germany likely never exists to start with

[@JohnMacbeth]

@@godemperorofmankind3.091 Wouldn't be a France.

[@AndisweatherCenter]

This scenario is absolutely awesome! There is a reason I’ve been Subscribe to you for almost the past 10 years. I’ve been subscribed to you since 2013. Your channel is absolutely awesome

[@The_Mister_E]

As chaotic as living in such contested land would be, it's beauty and features are certainly worth fighting for. All those rivers connecting acres upon acres of fertile flat land ON TOP of that coastal access... It's as if you moved the Nile up out of the desert!

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

And you'd be going around burning villages and capturing women Or if your the victim a dead man or captured woman.

[@Mei0naise]

To be honest, I'm interested how fertile the lands would be now it has a load of rivers and potentially a superpower type of geography Also British food would actually probably be good in this scenario

[@geoDB.]

British cuisine is good

[@aasamspb967]

There won't be any britain, french, germany etc.

[@boinkmcbingo8890]

@@geoDB. yeah good for making you wish you were eating something else

[@JJaqn05]

@@boinkmcbingo8890 Stop meming. It is good

[@JJaqn05]

@@fraskf6765 And that applie pie with marshmellows dipped in toilet water and lumpy old mustard are bussin

[@ronnyandliamsgamingchannel1950]

When a land passage shows up connecting Britain to Europe mainland. Britain: "No No No WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!" France: 'laughs in baguette'

[@stlchucko]

If the ocean level didn’t rise high enough to cover east of England, wouldn’t it potentially prevent the Mediterranean Sea from connecting to the Atlantic through the Straight of Gibraltar?

[@himlingpatrice]

On the time Doggerland trully existed, Mediterranean sea was connected to the Atlantic.

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@himlingpatrice Sadly. No Hyborean age.

[@doubledouble4g379]

A massive inland sea like the Caspean could be equally interesting...

[@jakeaurod]

No, the Camarinal Sill, the shallow part of the strait of Gibraltar is 900+ ft deep, whereas the lower sea level during the Last Glacial Maximum was only about 425 feet lower than present. You'd have to go back several million years to the Messinian Salinity Crisis when the Mediterranean dried up and the Zanclean flood when it refilled for a natrual setting for such a story. Alternately, you can look into the idea of damming the strait such as in the concept of Atlantropa, which Cody has also done a video on.

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@jakeaurod You'd have to go back to the AGE OF HIGH ADVENTURE. When it was a great basin split by the river Styx.