What If Hitler Was Assassinated? | Alternate History

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What if the July 20th Plot, also known as Operation Valkyrie, was successfully carried out by plotters Claus Von Stauffenberg, Henning Von Tresckow, Ludwig Beck, and Carl Goerdeler, assassinating Adolf Hitler, triggering a military coup, and overthrowing the German regime?
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Music Used: Ride Of The Valkyries, Galactic Damages, They Might Not, Heads Up

[@MonsieurDean]

Many thanks to Ridge Wallet for Sponsoring this video! www.ridge.com/MONSIEURZ We have new videos every Wednesday at 2:30pm EST. Don't miss them, and please like & share the video if you enjoyed it! Become a channel sponsor: kzbin.info/door/QR_kmeb0lBEk1Zj_9LWDHAjoin Buy official shirts: modernmediamerch.com/search?q=monsieur+z Join our "Discord Server": www.usofz.com/forum Pick up a copy of our novel: www.amazon.com/Am-Uncle-Sam-Dean-Mosley-ebook/dp/B07WNG95QH

[@currymanjunior3603]

If after you want to see my video here is the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jYjJfoZnorFgiZo

[@sp1nks248]

What would the World look like if all you're What if videos where complied on a map.

[@AwoudeX]

For my needs, the minivan is far more practical. So only if i have a car that can carry some load and traverse the rougher roads, i'd even consider a sporty car that would have sacrificed the practicality for performance.

[@lucius6667]

Wonder what would have happened had Himmler won the leadership race or ernst Rohm

[@JulianPerez-it9sm]

One part I think you left out of this video was the Warsaw Uprising. It was a massive uprising against the general government of occupied Poland that was orchestrated by the polish home army. It happened just a few weeks after the attempt on Hitlers life and I think it would have been incredibly important for this alternate timeline. The main goal of the uprising was to have the polish government in exile return to Warsaw and secure the nations independence from both Germany and the USSR. With the German military being weakened by most likely infighting between anti and pro NSDAP forces, the uprising would have been successful. This likely lead to conflict between the soviets and the West, with disputes between the returning polish government and a Soviet backed communist government. So Poland would have been divided into two countries like Germany In our timeline.

[@jeremytibbetts3576]

Remember when you get your time machine you don't have to kill Hitler. You just have to buy his paintings

[@Cpt_Boony_Hat]

Or make Wilson lose in 1912

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

@@Cpt_Boony_Hat President Wilson? If yes, he became the president in 1913.

[@Cpt_Boony_Hat]

@@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja yes but the election was in 1912

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

@@Cpt_Boony_Hat True, just remember that there was some time between election and inauguration.

[@confused4971]

Gonna have to agree with this. Lots of people would kill baby hitler if they could, but they really should just either beat the shit out of the "father" hitler had, or get him to raise his son better

[@danialhalal]

Simple: Adolf Hotler wouldnt be Alive

[@Nothing-1w3]

Damn.

[@MonsieurDean]

@The Nova renaissance Yeah, that seems a little unrealistic.

[@senorbaguette2269]

bro spoilers

[@thatgaming1940]

Who's Adolf Hotler?

[@firemangan2731]

Is Hotler a lost twin of Hitler or someth’n?

[@trippfields279]

"What if WW1 Came Early" Aka, what if the Agadir Crisis started WW1

[@danieldelaney1377]

or what of the boer war triggered ww1

[@CZPC]

Please this.

[@Schaapdatmekkert]

Dogger bank gone wild ?

[@currymanjunior3603]

If after you want to see my video here is the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jYjJfoZnorFgiZo

[@camilomadrigal6762]

By early do you mean like Napoleon times or...

[@chillaxo9863]

If Roosevelt hadn't played the unconditional surrender card, a realistic scenario like this would be the Soviets taking everything up to Poland pre war. The Germans might have gotten to keep Austria.

[@z3r0_35]

That's assuming the Soviets would've been content to accept those conditions. They'd likely also sieze East Prussia as they did in OTL (this I would see as being the bare minimum that the Soviets would accept as reparations for the millions killed on the Eastern Front) and would probably at least attempt to sack Berlin, but it's possible that the Wehrmacht might be able to hold the line for a little while if they don't have to worry about the western borders and can concentrate entirely on the east.

[@chillaxo9863]

@@z3r0_35 that's what I meant if everything up to Polands pre war border. Although Stalin used the casualties (which he exacerbated with incompetence, the nkvd etc) as an excuse to further his power far into Europe, he might have backed of if the western Allies demanded peace. Its probable that Germans throughout Eastern Europe would be enslaved or slaughtered anyway there's no changing the Red Army's contempt on that.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@@z3r0_35 the soviets aren't in a possition to make such demands if the germans can get the west on their side. soviet supply relied on american trucks and more than half their ammunition was created from materials from the US. if germany 1) tried the nazis for warcrimes, exposeing and condemning the various camps 2) immediately freed poland, the baltic states, czechoslovakia, france, belgium, norway, denmark, northern italy and the balklans, withdrawing and with drawing 90% of the military to the east (only leaveing some troops along the Siegfried line) BEFORE the peace treaties. (thus creating willing allies [or more than historically] in the poles and baltic states, aswell as the czechs and slovaks and reduceing partisan actions. then germany is in a decently strong position against the soviets (as none of the east wants soviet control) and the British don't want soviet control. the americans don't have the excuse of letting the soviets have the east in order to destroy germany, and the individualists would be increasingly demanding an end to the war (why punish germans willing to kick out and punish the perpetrators?) the germans effecitvely gain manpower (eastern states and occupation forces) and at least british support and probably american support. while the soviets loose both american and british support. as for the millions killed by the germans? stalin killed more soviet people un to that point than the germans did. they likely would have tried to take as mutch as possible and then refuse to give it up. historically the soviet army ran out of steam infront of warsaw and had to wait for supplies to be brought back up. in this timeline since the US can't justify lendlease and the british didn't really want to do so in the first place. they are going to need more time in this stop to build up. they would likely also be faceing stiffer opposition as they are faceing both poles and germans. worst-case scenario british (and even american) supplies are given to german-polish forces to help them stop the soviets. you would likely end up in a korean-war type scenario where the soviets dislike the outcome but are finding it harder to push out, while the 'central powers'/west would also be unable to push.

[@z3r0_35]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 You’re assuming that the UK and US would even have the willpower to fight with the Soviets over it. While certain people like Winston Churchill and George Patton were willing (and the latter was murdered for it), by 1944-1945 the people of the UK and US were already getting weary of the war (and nevermind France, which would still be recovering from the occupation and thus wouldn’t be in a position to fight on, assuming they’d even be willing to help Germany at this point). There was also the matter of Soviet sympathizers, which was much more of a problem within the US as organizations like the State Department were lousy with infiltrators and sympathizers, which may have contributed to, among other things, China falling to the Communists (and led to Senator McCarthy’s efforts to root out Communists, unlike what Hollywood and the public school system would have you believe). This likely includes FDR himself, though he has less than a year to live by that point. It is possible, as I said before, that the Soviets could have been placated with some more minor concessions (i.e. ceding East Prussia, dominion over Poland and the Baltic States) that would’ve left Germany unified by the end, but I don’t think that much would have changed beyond that in that regard. The Nazi Party would still likely be abolished as a condition of peace and high-ranking officials handed over to be tried for war crimes, and further restrictions would be imposed on the Wehrmacht to largely disarm Germany at least on a temporary basis. Now that said, if there IS willpower to fight the Soviets over the issue of German sovereignty, then it’s entirely possible that the US is able to force the collapse of the Soviet Union. How, you might ask? Nukes. If the worst came to pass and B-29s could be based close enough (likely by putting pressure on Sweden and/or Finland, or outright invading and occupying them like the Entente did to Greece in World War I), it’s highly likely that Moscow and Leningrad would’ve been hit with nuclear weapons (keep in mind that at the time the Soviets had NOTHING that could intercept the B-29 effectively at high altitude, which led to them stockpiling as many Me 262s as they could find just in case in OTL - with the inability to push into Germany proper they wouldn’t have access to these jets), possibly killing off the Politburo and decapitating the Communist Party. The ensuing power vacuum would immediately throw the Soviet Union into a civil war from which it may be unable to recover.

[@herrnchaos7490]

Oh hell no

[@floatingf8783]

Hitler: I'd like to see you try! 42 attempts and even more time travelers all failed!

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

Red Alert timeline Einstine: I am gonna do whats called a pro gamer move. Red Alert Soviets: I am gonns ruin this mans whole career

[@sadiqahmed4143]

Time traveler:- that's it prepare the 20 megaton Nuke

[@Perririri]

Stewie Griffin, Nazi hunter!

[@R.Specktre]

No more methed up responses, please...🤣

[@jeffreysommer3292]

"Mein Fuehrer! How are you so good at knocking out time-travelling assassins?" "Practice!"

[@billhope2596]

I've always said that this plot would have worked if someone had of been willing to die to make sure Hitler also died. Not only did they need someone to plant the bomb but make sure he didn't get out of the room. But alas no one wanted to go that far.

[@SusCalvin]

I don't think they imagined it would be needed. They make a bomb they think is strong enough to kill everyone in the room, no need to have a guy in there to tie Hitler to a chair or merely distract him. Making bombs is hard, you could have three staff officers in there taping Hitler to a chair and still risk a dud.

[@richgweil]

THANK you! I have always said that the hero worship that some have for Von Stauffenberg is misplaced. The plotters could have made sure if they were willing to sacrifice, but they really just wanted to make sure they were alive to hold power in the new government.

[@SusCalvin]

@@richgweil Their plan isn't just to kill Hitler so the NSDAP can have a succession crisis and then probably elevate Himmler to the same position. The coup is aimed against the SS and NSDAP itself. These guys happen to be placed in the coup defence at the time, their plan was to use that to make rounds of arrests.

[@richgweil]

@@SusCalvin No, I get that. I understand they had to plan for afterwards. But in the recipe for roast rabbit, the first step is to catch a rabbit. No post-Hitler planning is worth anything if Hitler is still around. The plotters needed to ensure the success of the assassination. The best way to do that would have been for one of them to sacrifice themselves. But they all wanted those post-Hitler jobs. That doomed them. And, in my personal opinion, puts a lot of tarnish on the heroism that some people tag them with. That's my point.

[@SusCalvin]

@@richgweil There isn't a lot of them. They genuinely believe one of these bombs will kill Hitler, making bombs is harder than it looks. I don't know what you want them to have done. Wrassle Hitler down into a chair? Run at him with a pistol or knife? At this point, access to Hitler is controlled.

[@endorsedvampire7581]

Here is a recommendation: what if the ptolemy dynasty never fell?

[@wickederebus]

well, take a look at Hapsburgs, and factor in, the ptolemies gave us the great Cleopatra. there is hope.

[@dunkelheit5055]

@Will DeMarco i mean to be honest austria hungary did least in the great war. Germany held the western front and won on the eastern front, (also reinforcing the hungarian border) Bulgaria (technically contributing the least but not in compearison) helped on the balkans on the Macidonian front and again Romania (and helped Austria defeat serbia.) The ottomans held at gallipoli and at least tried their best in Armenia and the southern front and Austria Hungary, witch tried to push into Russia and failed, then into serbia where they stalemated and then in the Italian front where the same thing happend.

[@dunkelheit5055]

@@bakthihapuarachchi3447 well i think that if we drag the Roman civil war a little longer, fuel unrest in Gaul and the Middle east, then made Gaul and the Middle east explode into rebellion, maybe we could destroy the Roman State.

[@Nicky-bv9xk]

- What If Maximilian Robespierre remained in power? - What If North Korea won the Korean War? What if Superheroes like Superman exists in the real world? - What if 9/11 never happened? - What if Syndicalism became more prominent in Socialist ideology instead of Communism? - What if Italian army was effective in WW2?

[@SupremeLeaderKimJong-un]

I like the second one

[@asianlifter]

if north korea won the korean war the DPRK would actually be a threat to the sovereignty of other nations

[@Nicky-bv9xk]

Kim Jong-un Hey Rocket Man! 🤗

[@Nothing-1w3]

"- what if Italian army was effective in ww2" This is alt history. Not fantasy.

[@Nicky-bv9xk]

Adblock HitHer • 10 years ago of course it’s fantasy, that’s alt history for you. And as the last one I suggest, it’s more Mussolini wet dream of having an actual army than being a bitch to Hitler.

[@russman3149]

What if Stalin was assassinated

[@Barwasser]

depends on the year. Anything pre war/purge would probably help the Soviets. During the war - not so much

[@beardiegaming1952]

We would all be speaking German

[@mitjed]

He was assassinated, he did not suffer a stroke, he was most likely poisoned. Stalin was a threat to anyone including his own party. Beria, Stalins minister of internal security, boasted on killing Stalin, 2 months after his death.

[@leninbilalexander6754]

Anything before the five- year plans would hinder the USSR's rapid industrialization and therefore essentially give the Nazis the keys to Moscow and Leningrad. During the war would make the USSR collapse. After the war could work, though.

[@EternalModerate]

@@leninbilalexander6754 Not necessarily, another soviet leader could pursue a more pragmatic economic approach; giving the USSR a similar level of industrialization without the enormous human cost or loss of military leadership.

[@squamish4244]

Von Stauffenberg didn't even need to arm the second charge. He just needed to throw it into the briefcase. Instead he stuffed it in his pocket. Had both bombs gone off, it *would have killed everyone in the room.*

[@jacqueschouette7474]

I have always thought that after the explosion, while everyone in the room was still stunned, Von Stauffenberg or someone else who did not have the same limitations of Von Stauffenberg, should have gone back into the room with an automatic weapon and hosed down the room just to make sure that everyone was dead with special emphasis placed on Hitler. Von Stauffenberg could have possibly died, but at least, he would have made sure that Hitler was dead.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@jacqueschouette7474 that was kind of a problem with all these assassination attempts, no one was willing to stake their life on it, let along sacrifice their life for it.

[@nutyyyy]

Plus if the meeting had taken place in the bunker as intended rather than above ground then the explosion would have been far more effective.

[@androclesst.matthew5934]

The show “Unsolved History” proved in an experiment that if Stauffenberg had left the second unarmed bomb in the briefcase along with the first armed one, Hitler would have definitely been killed!

[@Bluesonofman]

Operation Valkyrie? (I don’t have time to watch. Right now)

[@VladimirPutin-on9xq]

Of course it is?

[@Bluesonofman]

@NO COMMIES Before or after Rhineland?

[@KayJblue]

It’s a good movie too,maybe you can find time to watch that.

[@wisemankugelmemicus1701]

@@KayJblue Not really. It's a pretty generic good guys vs bad guys action movie. In reality, all the conspirators were much more morally grey than the movie portrays, aside from maybe Treskow. They were all convinced to support Valkyrie by backhanded means and some were even more horrible antisemites than Hitler himself who didn't think he went far enough. Others supported the plot based off their own tactical needs.

[@KayJblue]

Wisemankugel Memicus I know it’s not the most realistic but it’s still a decent film and it does inspire to research it more.

[@Ray-xq3cx]

Last time I clicked on a video fast, Germany still had a Kaiser.

[@williamgignilliat8018]

Same

[@t.gregory835]

ERIKA

[@asianlifter]

Last time I clicked on a video that fast, Germany’s position of Kaiser was still somewhat respectable

[@XMando11]

Last time I was this early I wasn’t losing the war against the Soviet union

[@XMando11]

The war is not lost !

[@geno3911]

there was an assassination attempt on hitler during the 1930s in the munich beer hall but he left 15 minutes early "pity he didnt have another pint"

[@unclesam5230]

Last time I was this early Julius Caesar was conquering Gaul.

[@vger4781]

@@Perririri Just realize that one day you will have to anser to HIm for everything you say!

[@herrderr1921]

Do What if Heydrich survived and became the Mastermind of the werhwolf

[@mm-ez6xn]

wehrwolf was done but it got all of the restrictions from youtube

[@MonsieurDean]

It would probably be taken down again.

[@alexanderraz.]

What is wehrwolf

[@mm-ez6xn]

@@alexanderraz. it was a video Mr Z made about what if germany basically fought a huge guerilla war against the occupying soviets and west culminating in their independence as a north-korea like state beginning sometime in the 50s

[@sassycat]

Thanks, Google.

[@EmperorDarthOP]

What if Yellowstone had a Super Eruption before the 1st Wrold War?

[@the-letter_s]

this is a good one

[@hubbletrubble7875]

Something similar, although slightly earlier and much less intense, happened in 1816, called the Year Without a Summer, caused by the Tambora Eruption.

[@Nothing-1w3]

A BIG OOF

[@hassanalihusseini1717]

What if the Tunguska comet had arrived a ferw hours later (and impacted may be Berlin or Paris or London instead)?

[@benjaminjackboot6409]

Most likely it could have created a world more like the one shown in The Peshawar Lancers (2002) by Stirling.

[@shanepond7063]

This strategy of re-introducing, refining, and expanding some of these old scenarios from the past is incredible to say the lest, and the ridge wallet sponsor sequence is worthy of being made into a full add in its own right.

[@EEEEEEEE]

E‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎

[@Fight4Supreme]

Me: *reads the title* Also Me: He kind of was... by himself!

[@denisstoynev3935]

What if the Mongol Empire conquered Japan? What if Bulgaria won the 2nd Balkan War? Here's my 2 ideas for the next video :P

[@user-kt8yp5ho2y]

Yeah Japan will become the puppet just like the Goyeo(고려).

[@user-kt8yp5ho2y]

OMG! I was thinking the same thing!!!

[@JastwatchingYT]

wait bulgaria could have won the second Balkan war?

[@The-Samuil]

@@JastwatchingYT They had just as many soldiers as Greece and Serbia combined. If it wasn't for Romania joining the war they could have won

[@JastwatchingYT]

@@The-Samuil Yeah but I though romania had every interest in joining the war such as bulgaria was unprepared romania wanted dobrudja etc.

[@liamboote225]

Ohhh I thought of a pretty interesting idea. What if the Stresa Front stayed together?

[@FireurchinProductionsByzantium]

What if both Longjump and Valkyrie succeeded

[@Roymelth42]

Good effort as always. Although I think that mid 1944 was a time were it was too late for a mild peace for Germany in a position as an anti-communist shield. After two world wars involving so many deaths, hatred towards the German people was at it's peak. So much, allied forces threw bombs at literally everything that looked like a building in German cities. For me, a peace deal where Germany would've been allowed to retain Austria, Sudetenland & 1914 eastern borders seems a bit too good of a deal for Germany to have happened then. At most, they would've gotten their borders restored to how they were 1937, with the polish having to agree to allow German civil traffic cross the corridor. The western allies would've quickly switched focus onto stopping the USSR and preventing eastern Europe from falling to communist forces. Diplomatic, at first...

[@hansschuster9675]

I fully agree it was Just too late The Video is a Lil bit too pro german optimistic even If i as a german would Love those borders xD

[@somedudeonline1936]

I think any attempt before 1943 wouldnt have changed much since the the allies will only accept unconditional surrender.

[@cantripleplays]

I don’t think they would get anything like a colony, but they would probably peace with them without losing much land and would probably have to allow Britain France and America move their military through their land. They would not get peace with the soviets.

[@EEEEEEEE]

E‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎

[@eddieschwab864]

Unconditional surrender would assume that the Nazis were still in power. A change in regime away from the Nazis would have been able to secure a separate peace from the Western allies. ​@@somedudeonline1936

[@jamesmmcgill]

What if Saul Goodman became the President of the United States of America?

[@Rendarth1]

Despite Roosevelt's blustering, I do think an armistice would have been signed in order to avoid senseless war. Though I can't imagine Germany keeping anything except for Austria. France would demand a fully restored Czech state, and nobody would ever allow the Reich a colony in Africa.

[@peterson7082]

Poland is iffy

[@starmnsixty1209]

The US didn't declare the war over until late 1946, in case hostilities flared again with the Soviet Union. I disagree it would have been senseless. The world would have been a more peaceful place w/o the Communist Soviet Union even if the US ended being less powerful than it is in our time line. It's been argued with some conviction that President Truman should have finished them then. Current events involving various former Soviet Republics lend credence to that even if it is somewhat aside from this alternate history.

[@markfoster1520]

@@starmnsixty1209 This is mnot bad. I've heard people suggest just that.....but you're forgetting the sheer numbers of Russian armament which we provided!

[@spenser6353]

@@peterson7082 germany couldnt have kept Poland. Poland was a sovereign nation

[@peterson7082]

@@spenser6353 Going with the original commenter's mannerisms applied for these conditions, I can see Poland being cast aside in this alternate history

[@Bahns007]

Got two things What if term limits were always a law and not a tradition at first? This could greatly affect both World Wars as Teddy Roosevelt and FDR both ran for their third terms just before each World War. And what if Christianity United instead of being split into Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy?

[@SusCalvin]

The orthodoxy are the closest ones to the early church organisation, I think. If those traditions are maintained instead of the eminence of Rome, their model of multiple regional centers of religious authority instead of a single hierarchy might have become the norm in western Europe as well. You'd have the franco-iberian metropolity and such with an entirely independent selection of bishops. All sorts of history involving the papacy gets shaken up.

[@lonelyp1]

We would still have religious wackos, and are you trying to take FDR away before his third term and forth election? We need a new FDR now. And you people wouldn't let us have BERNIE.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@lonelyp1 The people who were for Bernie should've either showed up to write him in or vote 3rd party to protest against the 2-party sham. Instead, most of them just stayed home and did nothing.

[@lonelyp1]

@@InfernosReaper I voted for Bernie 4 times. 2 primaries and 2 generals

[@InfernosReaper]

@@lonelyp1 You're sadly a small minority of those who claim to support Bernie

[@mathieuleader8601]

what if the Romanovs became the ruling royal family of the UK

[@mathieuleader8601]

@The Nova renaissance I've based this on the Saxe-Coburgs inviting them and having a pact with them to assume the throne as they in this timeline did not want to deny their german heritage.

[@LVCE.]

Ah yes he got Kennedyed

[@LVCE.]

Will DeMarco lmao

[@comeintotheforest]

But nothing bad ever happens to the Kennedys

[@LVCE.]

comeintotheforest haha

[@darealpoopster]

I’m popping my popcorn, don’t get too controversial without me

[@kimtran6589]

What if the Italian futurist movement was successful instead of fascism

[@McLovinTRoyce]

Any possible scenario where the English monarchs fled the British isles and settled in the American colonies (before the revolution)?

[@leninbilalexander6754]

During the Civil war/ glorious revolution?

[@DamonNomad82]

The last time I was this early, von Stauffenberg was still carrying an explosive suitcase toward the Wolf's Lair.

[@Perririri]

The last time I was this early, The Trump Train was still hooked up to the Lolita Express!

[@kaiserfranz1768]

What if Ernest Augustus became King of the U.K instead of Victoria? Ernest Augustus was the Duke of Cumberland and fifth son of King George III. Following the death of his elder brothers: George IV, Frederick Duke of York, William IV, and Edward Duke of Kent, the throne of the U.K passed to the deceased Duke of Kent's sole Child, Victoria (since none of the older siblings had any surviving legitimate issue) Meanwhile the Kingdom of Hanover which followed Salic law, passed to Ernest Augustus...thus ending 123 year long personal union between Hanover and Britain. But what if that Changed... What if Britain followed the Semi-Salic law that Hanover used or (more realistically) Victoria died while young and childless and was succeeded by Ernest Augustus? How would Britain and the world have developed differently under a strongly Conservative Monarch like Ernest Augustus? And Ernest's son and successor, George V, was king of Hanover during the Austro-Prussian war. Had George been King of the U.K as-well, would he have rekindled the historical Anglo-Austrian alliance against Prussia and how would that effect the outcome of the war?

[@brennerthelegomaniac2102]

How would've she died? And if so, did she die early in her reign or before she gained power? Because her assassinations occured during her reign.

[@FastCarsNoRules220]

Hitler was already assassinated, he got shot by Professor Farnsworth's laser gun after saying "Behold my mustache".

[@hiddenwoodsben]

so happy that you mentioned fdr's 43-ultimatum. i often wonder whether anything would have changed if he had just bit his tongue.

[@ImperialZorn686]

What if the Beer Hall Putch was successful ?

[@welshymcwelshface4841]

There is no way Germany would get to keep Alsace-lorraine.

[@KillerofWestoids]

They should be allowed to keep the 1937 borders.

[@Edmonton-of2ec]

There’s a reason Henning von Tresckow, Claus von Stauffenberg, Hans Oster and Carl Friedrich Goerdeler are my favourite Germans form the time. They got farther and closer then anyone else.

[@justsomeguy7921]

Those and Blaskowitz are my personal favorites (Johannes Blaskowitz is the guy I’m referring to- there’s some guy in some game with a shared last name). Them because of the same reason as you, and Blaskowitz because he was the only German officer to protest the SS’ actions to anyone with power (He did so before the camps existed- in 1940)

[@Yessir822]

At the time of Operation Valkyrie there is no chance Germany holds onto anything East of Silesia. Soviets would never allow the Baltic states under German influence to sit there or allow Germany to remain largely untouched when the German armies in the East were virtually deatroyed after Operation Bagration

[@ClayandPapyrus]

Erwin Rommel Simps: Oh yes daddy

[@Jetghostwolf]

How different would Europe be had England accepted Germany’s 10 offers of peace/truce? Now that would be a proper what if alternate history.

[@horacioelconserjeopina3956]

Did they?

[@hemaneatspizza9111]

Im sorry, but the amount of time Adolf got lucky through his life and not being killed throughout all of the crazy stuff he participated in, is just ridiculous. Even his death, did not come at the hands of another person, but by his own hand and gun. It's just crazy how one inch or slight movement or bit of bad luck (for Hitler) would've completely changed the world as we know.

[@matthewmohri9990]

GG As Hell!!! Prt 2 will be awesome!

[@saadude96]

Your quality has improved so much. Loving it

[@saadude96]

By that I mean sound quality and balancing. Still the same good content

[@thecoolone777]

Hey great vid! Here's a interesting scenario, What if the United States was involved in the Napoleonic Wars?

[@mrmeme9349]

Hey thats actually a really cool idea!

[@yeetothecheeto5787]

Which side would they be on?

[@thecoolone777]

Probably France because some people in France wanted to protect the French Revolution

[@yeetothecheeto5787]

@@thecoolone777: Then Britain would probably bring them back into the Empire.

[@remigiuscaesar8307]

Ever heard of the war of 1812?

[@xxxtakaji-kaixxx9016]

Sniper elite players: don’t worry I got this bro. *shoots Hitler* Sniper elite player:see I told u.

[@juancana5726]

I spent some time in the USN, and one central tenet in planning a mission is a backup plan. Further, if it was a 'high-value' target, then a SECOND backup plan would, of course, be created to gaurd against FUBAR that might put the kibosh on plans.

[@SusCalvin]

At this time, access to Hitler is very restricted. Germany itself shares a thing with other dictatorships, the threat of a palace coup. VALKYRIE itself is part of the coup defence. By having parallell institutions, it's harder to co-opt them all and for one to stage a coup itself.

[@SkinnerNoah]

What if Julius Caesar survived the ides of March? Perhaps he has armor under his toga, perhaps Antony saves him, but regardless, Caesar is alive on March 16th, and he's *angry* ...

[@brandonmoreo]

My history teacher was related to general Beck I learned so much about general Beck and operation Valkyrie it's one of my favorite stories

[@EvilParagon4]

Mr Z., I have an idea for an alternate history, one that's a bit less classic but I think could still be super interesting. What if Australia was discovered in 1520ish by Portugal? There is a theory that Portugal discovered Australia back then since they started putting Java Grande on their maps, but it was probably just because they put land there due to it being uncharted but ocean patterns near East Timor would discern that there was not open ocean to the south, but land. So what if they _actually_ discovered Australia, not just guessed it was there and put it on maps? The back to back discoveries of new worlds only 30 years apart sounds like it could stretch empires thin.

[@jamesmason3687]

So a nationalist Germany teaming up with Rhodesia to fight colonial wars. Based

[@codysodyssey3818]

Usually I like or, at least, don't mind Mister Z's alternate histories but I gotta say that this one completely broke my suspension of disbelief post war. Assuming that Britain and France would give up their colonial empires while also giving a still unified Germany both colonies and Carte Blanche with it's military and eastern Europe just seems utterly farcical to me. Sure I get where he's coming from of just going with the provisional government getting everything it asked for: minute details are only entertaining to pedants. But still: giving up their empires when they have not one but two powerful rivals in Europe? I don't think so

[@thomasaquinas5262]

If the July 1944 attempt had succeeded, it's not crystal clear what might have happened. Yes, the oath they took would've been broken, but the plotters were so disorganized that a clean seizure of power wasn't guaranteed. Just to make it more opaque, according to Albert Speer, the 'other side' such as the SS were by no means as rabid as you might think. Speer gave the impression that they would wait and see who 'won' before they acted. The sad thing is, had the plotters been perfectly organized, they might've succeeded even with the attempt only partially successful. By that time, the army knew the war was lost...

[@zionmolina3039]

What if Hawaii remained a independent Kingdom and ethnically hemogenous with the Native Hawaiians being the majority of the Islands.

[@indicimbecile6992]

1.The Us remains isolationist during WW2 because no Pearl Harbor attack 2. It becomes a puppet of the Us like Cuba and military bases are still built. Pearl Harbor still happens and the world is basically the same just with a new nation

[@zionmolina3039]

@Will DeMarco sounds interesting

[@zionmolina3039]

@The Nova renaissance I would think so too considering in our timeline they did consider annexing it into their Empire when it was still a independent nation.

[@JL-ti3us]

Mr Z; based upon your sponsors and advertisements of late, I have concluded a Mr Z ASMR channel is just what I have been missing in my life. Please make pole to gauge interest. Hell could be you reading history info. Sincerely Loyal Subscriber.

[@SupremeLeaderKimJong-un]

What if the US never invaded Grenada

[@fenriswolf8829]

what if korea was divided

[@K9TheFirst1]

One very important factor you neglected to address is what the response would be regarding... Certain camps. Also: What if the Hungarian Revolution of 1848 succeeded?

[@gareginnzhdehhimself]

Occupying forces would liberate them and Germany would probably be forced to pay reparations to survivors.

[@guardiadecivil6777]

they'll probably take it down not necessarily for moral reasons but due to the fact they're huge waste of resources. as to what will happen to the jews once they're free is unknown since they could either do nothing once they're out of the camps or possibly even join resistances if not form them for revenge, i assume some nazi loyalists would do mass executions before they're finally stopped by forces loyal to the new leadership though

[@christiandauz3742]

Lots of lawsuits. Germany would pay even more reparations even up to today

[@aceambling7685]

The camps would be emptied and the survivors given over to the allies. Well, those that manage to not get death marched by Nazi loyalists.

[@die1mayer]

Just show a sanitized version like the film Theresienstadt and claim high mortality was caused by tuberculosis. If the Allies protest, question their camps (Soviet Gulag system was far more expansive and famine in Allied POW camps was severe).

[@marcustonon4775]

i'm sorry, but if you don't think this would be the dream scenario to the end of ww2, we can't be friends

[@tslaughter3804]

True, it is

[@americansyndicalist7602]

A redo of the operation valkyrie video? Cool

[@burhan446]

Clicked on this video as soon as I read this title

[@hiddenwoodsben]

"to keep the union from becoming dominated by germany." and "...it might once again make a grab for continental power." worked like a charm.🙃

[@user-kt8yp5ho2y]

I love it! And here are the lists that I want to see the future video. 1. What if Korean Empire never fails. 2. What if Korea becomes the colony of France? 3. What if Japan becomes the colony of the USA? 4. What if Xinhai Revolution failed? 5. What if Two Sicilian Empire had a colony or refuse to united with Italian Empire? 6. What if USA failed in the Spanish American war? 7. What if Ethiopia was the superpower in the African continent? 8. What if Park Chunghee survives in the 10/26? 9. What if China was scrambled like Africa? 10. What if China won the First Sino-Japanese War? 11. What if Guiana becomes the state of Canada? 12. What if France and Britain involve the Civil war? 13. What if the Berlin uprising success and the Soviet evacuate East Germany? 14. What if the second Korean war happened in 1975 or 1994? 15. What if Grand Admiral Yi sun shin never died? 16. What if Japan invades Australia? 17. What British and France involved the civil war? 18. What if the Confederates won the civil war?

[@asianlifter]

depends on how this happens. china in general has sucked a lot in wars, so i find it unlikely theyd win. as for a china scramble i find that unlikely, more or less japan will become way more militant and hostile like Hitler, and there would be a great budget to keep a chinese colony

[@Nothing-1w3]

What the fuck is 18th is meant to be?

[@Nothing-1w3]

Yes I am grammar nazi.. 12. What if France and Britain where involved in the American civil war 13. What if the Berlin uprising succeeded and the Soviets evacuate east Berlin 18. What if Confederation won the American civil war (I guess that what it us supposed to be?)

[@asianlifter]

@@Nothing-1w3 just because a sentence doesnt make sense means youre a grammar nazi, but i get where youre coming from.

[@Barwasser]

The most important difference is that the Holocaust would have been far less severe as it ramped up in late 1944. Also post-war genocide of German civilians in the east would never have happened.

[@Numba003]

This was well timed, given that I‘m currently reading a book about an anti-Nazi German fellow from back in the day (Dietrich Bonhoeffer). Stay well out there everybody, and Jesus Christ be with you friends.😊

[@davidskidmore4189]

If they killed Hitler, it doesn't mean that Stalin would all of sudden be a reasonable guy. The issue had been decided by that point and the Wehrmacht was in full retreat across Eastern Europe at this time. If you think Stalin wasn't licking his chops at this point and imagining his enlarged communist utopia, you do not understand him or the situation.

[@aayushagarwal4138]

Minor Mistakes in the map after the War: 1) India was not partitioned. 2) Greece does not has Thrace. 3) Hungary still had its territories from WWII.

[@MonsieurDean]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHTbc6ahg62bf9E

[@aayushagarwal4138]

@@MonsieurDean Lol, sorry man, just tryna point some minor mistakes

[@GarfieldRex]

Loved the ad almost as much as the video 👌 I would wonder what if someone could manage to choke Hitler while he was on the ground after the explosion. This scenario seems the best way to end the regime and saving Germany, maybe even retaining Austria, but of course having to cede political and naval power. Maybe this was even better for Poland and the rest of central Europe. The bigger losers would be USA and USSR.

[@user-kt8yp5ho2y]

I love today’s video. While I’m watching this video I’m feeling sad that this never happens in our timeline.

[@incrediblemr.e8765]

Same here.

[@connordevereaux759]

Good video. I like your channels content 😄

[@wwltd3036]

These videos leave one with a bad case of theoretical history blue balls

[@achistorian6978]

What if America joined the League of Nations?

[@dari1510]

"What if Tito killed Stalin"

[@drretard0343]

Some ideas for a next video: A) What if the Muslim forces beat the Franks in the Battle of Tours. B) What if the enlightenment never happened

[@johngardner4096]

"The Enlightenment? Wasn't that some counter-culture fringe group who suggested that there might be an innate equality among all men? As I recall, those kooks were laughed out of the colleges for failure to embrace the Greater Orthodoxy (the one that sprang from the Lutheran Reforms and the Calvinist Correction), then hunted down for "promulgating pernicious doctrines" and shipped off to the Americas...."

[@shadithakis]

I just realize you dont have 100k yet. That's so dumb these videos are awesome

[@ivancito7790]

I think this scenario would be more interesting if approached from the angle of "what if Hitler and therefore the Nazis never came into power?"

[@That_Aussie_Bloke]

simple, the communists win election. ally with the russians Europe go commie now

[@ivancito7790]

@@That_Aussie_Bloke I doubt it. England and the Americans would for sure go to war with Russia in that scenario.

[@That_Aussie_Bloke]

@@ivancito7790 i meant in the sense that any part of europe connected by \ a land border would surely fall to a German-Russian alliance. The sheer size of both the army and industry would make any chance of fighting hopeless. Not to mention any naval invasion would practically be impossible.

[@cirbam2747]

What if the Great Union of Soviet Socialist Republics had taken Hitler as captive?

[@asianlifter]

joseph shitalin would have a massive propaganda wave

[@TheBlackAndDeckerBootyWrecker]

Sodomy... Pure unadulterated sodomy.

[@sgauden02]

I honestly don't think Stalin would've killed Hitler. That would be too MERCIFUL... I picture Stalin wanting to keep Hitler alive so that he would be forced to live with the knowledge that his "Master Race" was beaten by the Russians. Stalin would also probably want to PERSONALLY beat the crap out of Hitler himself, and VIDEOTAPE the whole thing to save the moment for a future viewing! Just imagine: Stalin taking pictures with a battered, and bruised Hitler, and saying "These will look great in the photo album!"

[@savagedarksider5934]

@@sgauden02 What if Stalin was Captured by The German ?

[@sgauden02]

@@savagedarksider5934Hitler may want to execute him personally, and probably would also record the event for prosperity.

[@powerboatguy2308]

It would depend on when he was assassinated. Prior to 1942, someone like Goring who did not want to expand the war may have sued for peace (as the Nazis were still popular and powerful), came up with some sort of way to save face, but after the middle of 43, when the atrocities had surfaced and the war had turned against Germany, there would only be unconditional surrenderer regardless if the nazis were in power or not.

[@lhaley9873]

It's possable a more skilled leader would come to power and the military would have made decisions that could have dragged the war out much longer.

[@SamIrwin118]

Nice algorithm just as WW3 is starting

[@azguyazdesert417]

Interesting topic that really deserves a much longer video to explore all possible outcomes. I think that the Death Camps operated by the NAZI Party and quite frankly Germany as a whole needed to be addressed if any meaningful peace negotiations were to be truly resolved. I think that the Soviets under Stalin's leadership would have been far more flexible. Don't forget, the Russians were hammered pretty heard by Germany, they were never as strong as they let on, and they would have taken advantage of an early peace settlement. They were in no position to challenge the Allies with the U.S. in charge, and Patton still healthy and in command of the 3rd Army. I think something really ignored would have been the Japanese. Would they have been more receptive to an early end to the war, if Germany had successfully negotiated an early pece settlement? Affter all, there are thoes who believe that it wasn't the threat of a third atomic bomb, but the threat of a Soviet invasion of the Home Islands that motivated the Japanese to surrender in August 1945. With Germany out of the war, the Soviets may have decided to declare war on Japan much sooner. This may have changed the dynamics of the war in the Pacific dramatically? Who knows if dropping the A-Bomb on Japan would have been necessary if the Japanese felt they had to fight all of the Allies alone with no support from Germany?

[@SusCalvin]

I think the line of thinking in this video is that the coupmakers in VALKYRIE manage to contest the NSDAP. Their plan was to follow up the assassination of Hitler by triggering coup defence units and have them overpower the SS and parts of the NSDAP hierarchy by bluffing and accusing them of the assassination. Most of the VALKYRIE troops are not in on this plan at all, and a live Hitler can quickly countermand anything. NSDAP at the time have been busy nestling themselves into as many facets of the german state as they can. The coupmakers would have to manage not just the SS but police forces, buerocrats and low-level NSDAP members through german society. I think one outcome might be a dead Hitler but a failed coup, where his death triggers a succession crisis in the NSDAP at most. But Germany with Himmler as head of state in '44 would still be very similar to IRL Germany right then. The Japanese high command in '44 are already aware of the situation in Europe and the predicament of Germany. They've always figured that no german equipment, troops or ships are going to show up to secure their Co-prosperity Sphere and their island buffer zone. There is little practical cooperation between them and German in IRL history. The only difference in the Pacific is that the fall of Germany (which the japanese ignore IRL) comes earlier, possibly freeing up more UK/commonwealth and US troops.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@SusCalvin Allies freeing up resources sooner and in greater number than would've otherwise been possible would've been a "hey, maybe we should quit before we actually do get destroyed" moment, far more than the bombs had been.

[@Apolita1987]

Dropping the A-bomb on Japan was not necessary, period. They dropped the bombs because they had them.

[@azguyazdesert417]

@@Apolita1987 you are forgetting the massive casualties on both sides, U.S. Military casualties, and civilian casualties during the invasion of Okinawa. The invasion of the home islands would have been an even greater loss of human life, on both sides. Your entire argument falls apart when you consider the Japanese refused to surrender after the first two Bombs were dropped. If the dropping of Atomic Bombs were unnecessary, Imperial Japan would have surrendered after the first bomb was dropped. The Japanese refused to surrender after the first bomb was dropped, and then refused to surrender after the second bomb was dropped. If what you claim was true, then the Japanese would have surrendered after the first bomb. Saying dropping the Atomic bomb was unnecessary to end the war doesn't match up with what actually happened. The Japanese military staff meeting the day after the first Atomic Bomb didn't even discuss it. There were higher civilian deaths in Tokyo from conventional bombing days earlier. As I said before, the Japanese finally agreed to a surrender because of their fear of a Soviet Invasion of the Home Islands not because of a threat of a third Atomic Bomb. The Japanese feared retribution from the Soviet Russians because of the Russo-Japanese War of 1905, not the British and Americans.

[@Apolita1987]

@@azguyazdesert417 I'm familiar with these arguments. I'm also familiar with the discussions leading up to the bombing. I'm also familiar with the fact that Japan is an Island, and as such, could have easily been blockaded and starved out.

[@thedigitalodometer945]

3:40 Nice one, Monsieur.

[@TheCoffeeCatDad]

Lets be real. If it wasn't for the Treaty of Versailles, Germany wouldn't have gone down that dark path condemning all those soldiers and civilians from home and foreign lands to death.

[@mathieuleader8601]

What if Kenneth Clarke was Prime Minister instead of Tony Blair

[@gonzalo731]

We need a hoi4 timeline of this..

[@guardiadecivil6777]

why not just play in one by doing the civil war focus or failing to invade chezchslovakia to the point the wehrmacht leadership starts a civil war

[@gonzalo731]

Combine Guard I’m talking about the post-war period of this timeline...

[@tablestirne9879]

One thing for sure, Koenigsberg would still be called Koenigsberg today and with German street signs rather than sold at the point of a rifle barrel to the Soviets

[@tedwojtasik8781]

There is no alternate universe where the Soviets would accept surrender from Germany without destroying Germany as well, especially by Summer 44'. Any successful coup would have had to happen prior to April 1942, after that, what the Germans did to the Soviets there was no turning back.

[@perfectlyfine1675]

Honestly, ever since Barbarossa began, USSR would have had its revenge. The fact that the Holocaust started in 1941 and was predominantly in the Soviet territory at first wouldn't help Germany's case.

[@jamessaulsbury5934]

Didn't Rommel have something to do with operation Valkyrie, or am I all wet on that?

[@BlixtenPK]

thay pland to put him as head of state

[@andrewstrongman305]

If the coup had succeeded I think the Soviets would have taken advantage of the resulting confusion and advanced rapidly. It's also a certainty that the Western Allies would force the German provisional government to hold open democratic elections as soon as possible after peace was restored between them. There is no way they would allow the return of Imperial Germany. The Allies would demand the immediate withdrawal of German forces from occupied territories and moved their own armies forward during the armistice. The Germans would also want to transfer Western Theatre forces to the East. Germany would be occupied to some degree by Western forces as the only way the West would agree to an armistice would be if a surrender on their terms was guaranteed. The Soviets would continue their Great Patriotic War, but might they accept a peace once they'd regained their original territories? Germany would suddenly have access to fuel and a revitalised and well supplied industry freed from bombing, as well as several hundred thousand fresh soldiers and equipment from the West. The war could have dragged on, but if the Soviets invaded Germany the Western Allies could have viewed them as unreasonable aggressors and lent their air forces to pummel any Soviet incursions. German scientists would work with Western counterparts earlier. F-86 Sabres in 1945? An early resolution to the war in the West would also have freed up US and British naval forces to move to the Indian and Pacific Theatres. Japan would still have been nuked, probably earlier in 1945, but the costly landings to take out Japanese strongholds throughout the Pacific could have been ignored by exterminating the IJN. Imagine Zeros trying to defend their carriers against jet fighters and attack aircraft when they couldn't do it against prop-driven aircraft.

[@Warrior-14]

Germany offered peace in 1940 several times. The Allies were never interested in peace.

[@nutyyyy]

Without Hitler it was far more likely. Though Germany was never going to get a peaceful that wasn't effectively an unconditional surrender.

[@Lol-yj7wu]

The amount of charisma in the ridge wallet ad is unreal

[@theodorkorner1497]

My favorite alternate history scenario ☺

[@kaiserwilhelmii674]

You monster! You had to post this just when my lecture starts?

[@heaterpistol6067]

"What if Hitler WERE..." or "What if Hitler had been..." The Word "if" takes the subjunctive case.

[@exposingproxystalkingorgan4164]

I saw the Tom Cruise movie Valkyrie. It had top actors portraying these historic characters.

[@MrHathaway1337]

What if Australia won the EMU War.

[@hassanalihusseini1717]

Then the ostriches will take over....

[@imperiumCirca41]

They did They just built fences

[@indplt1595]

...as a head of state dying during wartime in the 20th century had little to no impact on the fighting. FDR's death on 12 April 1945 was the sign Hitler was hoping and praying for, learning too late that the Soviet bloodlust as they assaulted Berlin was unquenchable until Der Fuhrer's head was on a pike, and the death of the American president only made the GIs angrier to the Wehrmacht's West, not disillusioned. The prospect of a head of state dying in an Axis Power was actually worse for the last losing power standing. Kyoto supposedly was removed from the atomic bombing list due to the historical significance of the city, ignoring the terror American leaders had at the prospect of the Japnese emperor dying in an atomic attack. MacArthur was attributed to say: "The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." Hirohito was the only man in Japan that could order every Japanese soldier, sailor and airman to lay down his arms, an order he issued on 15 August 1945. General Robert E. Lee ordered the same of his soldiers on 9 April 1865. Only if one of the Valkyrie conspirators had issued such an order and all Germans under arms in July 1944 had laid down their weapons would their cockamamie scheme have been successful. As it was, Germany chose a hybrid approach, where the Soviet and Western onslaught made unconditional surrender the preferable option to total slaughter, so Donitz finally issued the order. This or the wanton slaughter of all Germans were the only two options. Killing Hitler made no difference in this regard. He was immaterial to the final outcome. He chose annihilation instead of issuing the order, making and leaving him even more cowardly and criminal. The same goes for every Wehrmacht man. For any of the Valkyrie conspirators, unless he was willing to issue the order to surrender, he was was useless. Even Donitz deserves no credit, as he believed he was securing his future and wouldn't be treated as the war criminal he was if he issued the order. In the end, they reaped a far less destructive whirlwind than they deserved.

[@SusCalvin]

The USA has something the NSDAP doesn't have, a working system for the transfer of power. For better or worse the power falls to vice-president Truman automatically. In the NSDAP, the question "Who would succeed Adolf Hitler?" isn't as easy. Parts of the NSDAP are building their own power base within the german state.

[@indplt1595]

@@SusCalvin This was true, and was reminiscent of the almosr automatic civil wars that were triggered every time a Roman emperor would die after Augustus...but the German parallel in the 20th century only applied during peacetime, as Barbarossa changed the character of everything for everybody. Once the invasion of the USSR commenced, the controlling issue was the slaughter of Soviet POWs. Conservatively 2.5 million catured Red Army troops died in captivity, while 3-3.5 million dead is probably a more accurate figure. This was unprecedented even by First World War standards, where roughly 2.4 million captured Russian Imperial troops were put to work in German fields rather than being put to death and triggering a resulting Red Army bloodlust (and yes, while the Wehrmacht and German security services killed many more POWs through exposure and famine than by more direct means, the method to the murder was immaterial to the Soviet responding desire to exact revenge). Coupled with the slaughter of Soviet civilians that ran to much higher figures (perhaps into the tens of millions of dead, a series of atrocities termed the "Holocaust by bullet"), any German soldier, serviceman or civilian who faced the oncoming Soviet steamroller in 1944 or 1945 could enjoy a prospect other than wanton slaughter on the part of the Soviet soldiers...until the Americans resurrected the concept of unconditional surrender from 1865, permitting a much larger bloodbath against Germany to be prevented than had occurred in the USSR in 1941-44...historical precedents, such as the Mongol invasions and the Crusades, indicate that the typical response to such wanton bloodshed in the USSR would be killing several orders of magnitude worse in Germany proper, if the doctrine of unconditional surrender had not permitted an escape hatch to constrain the Soviet bloodlust. However, none of this would be apparent to any German on the ground in 1945, as the Soviet bloodlust was merely muted and the prospect of future war crimes trials and even Western revenge policy like JCS 1067 loomed on the horizon. In these circumstances, it mattered not who the German head of state was. The Allies were determined to dismantle the German state in its entirety, so changing the man in command as Germany was crushed flat under the American, British and Soviet steamrollers was of little more consequence that who was in charge of the Berlin Zoo in 1945.

[@SusCalvin]

@@indplt1595 It's still an interesting bit about the NSDAP and Germany, and should show up more in any "What if Hitler disappears?" question. Just who gets to become the head of state in Germany if something happens to Hitler. The VALKYRIE guys are using the coup defence itself to make the coup. There's systems like that in place to act as a countercoup. Their plan is basically to bluff the coup defence forces into putting down the fake SS coup. In '44, it would just change who gets to direct the last efforts of Germany. Someone like Himmler continuing the same path as Hitler wouldn't have a huge impact.

[@indplt1595]

@@SusCalvin Yes...but the real issue with Sond World War scholarship in this regard is the tendency to give FAR too much agency to Hitler after June 1941. Strategically the baton was passed to the Allies with the beginning of Lend-Lease in March 1941, intensified once the American taps to Archangelsk, Murmansk, the Persian Gulf, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy and Vladivostok were turned on, and Hitler was left impotently declaring war on the USA on 11 December to facilitate the totally inadequate Kriegsmarine response to the immense-and-growing Allied supply lines. Hitler's last major contribution was Barbarossa, because the only chance Case Blue had of succeeding would have required a major focus on Maikop, Grozny and Baku in 1941, not 1942-43, and gave the British enough time to convince the Americans to extend Lend-Lease to the USSR prior to Pearl Harbor. The German successes through to Manstein's victory in the Third Battle of Kharkov belie the fact that the Wehrmacht had no hope strategically after approximately November 1941. Even more irritating is the assumption that the oncoming Cold War meant the German ploy to pit the Western Allies against the USSR in 1945 had ANY hope of success--news flash, the death of FDR in April 1945 had no effect on the Allied prosecution of the war because the Americans were terrified of the prospective casualties from what would have been hands-down the largest battle of the war: Operation Downfall. Operation Unthinkable was insanity to the Americans considering intelligence agencies were projecting one million Allied casualties in the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, which was later revised to one million projected KIA. For context, the Americans suffered slightly more than 111,000 dead during the entirety of the Pacific War. This was why the US worked so diligently to supply the 1.6 million Soviet soldiers that fell upon Manchuria and Korea on 9 August 1945, and historian David Glantz has demonstrated convincingly that Stalin and the Red Army were all-in for attacking Hokkaido and Honshu in massed amphibious assaults...a capability the Soviets had developed in no small measure as a result of U.S. Navy training of their Soviet naval counterparts in Cold Bay, AK as part of Project Hula. The reality of what Operation Downfall actually entailed and that this truly was the Second WORLD War makes all the Valkyrie what-ifs all the more bizarre. Soviet bloodlust as a result of the POW slaughter and Holocaust-by-bullet meant the Red Army would have massacred tens of millions of Germans if the soundness of the American unconditional surrender policy had not supplanted some of the Soviet murderous rage. Moreover, the Americans were channeling the Soviet rage over the Russian defeat by the Japanese in 1905 into a Soviet entry into the Asian-Pacific War generally and Operation Downfall specifically. Germany, on the other hand, could offer nothing...other than war with the Red Army, which needless to say was 100% against both American and Soviet interests, national security and military needs prior to 2 September 1945.

[@brainhakker7133]

Good stuff

[@darrylforsythe8924]

I love the parody ad in the middle hahaha