What If Jessica Didn't Betray The Sisterhood & Never Had Paul?

[@TheTrycehyman]

I've always found it hard to imagine the Atreides and Harkonnen going in for such a marriage. The Baron might permit it if the Sisterhood guaranteed that child would sit the Lion Throne...but even then I'm not sure...and I can't imagine the Duke entertaining the notion at all, and if he did the Atreides would have instantly lost their best retainers. I mostly assumed that first daughter would be whisked away by the Sisterhood as part of the concubinage contract and then mated to Feyd without her parentage being known. This would leave the Sisterhood in complete control of the resulting child.

[@steveq6847]

Exactly, Jessica doesn’t know who her father is

[@brianwagner781]

Agreed. It's hard to imagine Leto would allow his daughter to be subjected to a marriage with a Harkonnen. There's pragmatic reasons for it and it's possible some outside pressure might be exerted on him to go along with it. But giving his daughter to someone he knows was raised by the Baron and therefore probably hopelessly sadistic? And the BG's don't have that kind of power over the Houses to force him.

[@TheTrycehyman]

@@brianwagner781 I agree. It would take the full force of Voice for Jessica to make him agree to it, and I'm not even sure that could do it.

[@Sidragrosm]

@@steveq6847 She'd find out. Once she undergoes the whole "Spice Agony" process, she'll "see" her father, through Jessica's eyes - and no doubt decide, provided she still has ANY sense of self, go to him. (Jessica didn't, as, if I understand, it, was too busy trying to keep Aliya from dying while she underwent said process.) Unless said daughter is an out & out psychopath (not unlike Aliya) she'd utterly reject both the sisterhood and the Harkonenn. (and given how The Baron views women..? I'd say THAT..? would be inevitable!)

[@asumazilla]

Jessica is already from the Harkonen line. That's why he (edit: the Baron) is called grandfather by Alia.

[@henrymach]

I think, to the emperor, the result would be even worse. Houses Atreides and Harkonnen together would be unstoppable

[@shengcer]

The rise of any kwisatz haderach is almost always guaranteed to be a bad thing. Gesserit learned it the hard way.

[@marlenewaldron4690]

I think that's one reason behind the Bene Gesserit plan to marry an Atreides female to a Harkonnen male; two of the most powerful/rich/influential Houses combined PLUS resulting in the Kwistz Haderach? Definitely unstoppable...assuming the BG COULD even control him.

[@marlenewaldron4690]

@@shengcer but they didn't realize that until after Leto II became the God Emperor. Until then, they wanted that power. Only after seeing Paul and Leto II did they realize a kwisatz haderach was a bad thing.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

@@shengcer "The rise of any kwisatz haderach is almost always guaranteed to be a bad thing. " Why?

[@timhenley3602]

@@shengcer True. I don't understand how they had hoped to control any kwisatz haderach...🤔

[@ArtemisScribe]

House Corrino only having daughters is integral to this plan too. So that a Bene Gesserit Sister who is fully committed to the cause will be on the throne when the Kwisatz Haderach came of age. That way rather than simply trying to nudge the empire from the shadows as advisors, they can have Irulan as their Bene Gesserit Empress simply dictate Imperial Policy as the sisterhood requires it. A lot of people assume that Irulan or one of her sisters would have been married to the Kwisatz Haderach to give him the Lion Throne, but don't forget Paul is a generation early. It would have been another 15-20 years after 10191 before the Sisterhood expected to see their Kwisatz Haderach come of age. Irulan was never meant to be his wife. Any version of him. Reverend Mother Mohiam makes several references to her not being suitable for the breeding program in Messiah. She has another purpose, to ease the coming of the Kwisatz Haderach onto the public stage.

[@bartsullivan4866]

A part of me feels sorry for Irulan and I can sympathize with her involvement in the plot of Messiah. She was not her father and did nothing wrong. She should have been able to have a child of her own

[@ArtemisScribe]

@@bartsullivan4866 I feel sorry for her too, but perversely, although it was cruel, Paul's way gave her the most freedom to be herself. She was doomed to be ruled by others no matter her path.

[@bartsullivan4866]

@@ArtemisScribe You are correct although a shape for such beauty to go to waste.

[@gloriamontgomery6900]

Irulan, right. She would have made an excellent propagandist for the Kwisatz Haderach with her stellar writing abilities

[@j.jennings1722]

If Jessica had birthed a girl first, her daughter would have been married off to Feyd Rautha and the Kwisatz Haderach would have been raised Harkonnen. That would have been so much worse than Paul, who at least had some scruples.

[@embracediscomfort6154]

It struck me watching this how weird it is that the Bene Gesserit didn’t interfere earlier with Paul’s upbringing…

[@jtownjumpcity5937]

Totally. Frank had it set up to show that the lack of love, and total control was the down fall of the Bene Gesserit. I love how you understand the true depth of Frank Herbert. They were stuck between a rock and hard place. Lol.. Leto the second is true hero for me. He sacrificed everything. Really sad man.

[@saphiriathebluedragonknight375]

@göksu gün alioğlu Sounds like the BG would have gotten along great with the prequel era Jedi.

[@thegoodwin]

Leto II = Emo Worm Man

[@ZemplinTemplar]

I've never been actually impressed with Leto II. I think he is as flawed in his conduct as Paul, just in different ways, and arguably even more megalomaniacally. I also think that Leto II, for all his lofty pretenses, failed to achieve most of his goals.

[@diegohaung2831]

Fun fact: Frank Herbert took Lawrence of Arabia as an inspiration for the book. And what’s funnier is that Denis Villenue (director of dune 2021) took the film of Lawrence of Arabia as a reference to his film. So technically Lawrence was the real Paul Artreides.

[@shanenolan8252]

Great movie i was watching it last Christmas.

[@stevenguevara2184]

Jon Snow is Paul

[@danesan1362]

@@stevenguevara2184 There are certainly similarities : allies Free Folk = Freemen, Special Heritage (Targaryen = Bene Gesserit breading program), visions of the future etc. But they aren't a one for one match. But Jon Snow is certainly inspired by Paul Atreides to a certain extent.

[@pokolfiu]

Peter O'Toole's extreme blue eyes

[@diegohaung2831]

@@pokolfiu i forgot to mention. Lawrence in the movie has some bright blue eyes.

[@MrSiriusAB]

Then Feyd-Ratha would be clapping some Pauline Atriedes cheeks

[@Kenshiro3rd]

If he didn’t skin her and (and possibly her kid) for pure sadistic fun. Dude had the WORST traits of his uncle, his uncle’s taste in sexual partners, plus his brother’s sadism…

[@shanenolan8252]

Lol

[@JBTriple8]

Ironically Timithoees chalament sisiter is named Pauline

[@Breathofthewild-hn9mv]

That would a very cool Yaoi fanfic.(I'm so very werid)😅😅😅😅

[@stephenmcdonagh2795]

Childhood's End was AC Clarke's first book, really enjoyed its premise about mankind being on the verge of changing into an ethereal advanced race, whilst the race of beings who guided mankind had reached their zenith in evolution and could evolve no further.

[@carolbriscoe9337]

What I found fascinating while reading the 'prequels' was that rhe Reverend Mother Helen was herself Jessica's mother! And that she deliberately ruined the Duke Harkonen's health because of his treatment of her. So there was already of streak of betrayal and retribution in Jessica!

[@DevakiKhanna]

Which prequels? I'm new to the fandom... so I would love to learn more.

[@carolbriscoe9337]

@@DevakiKhanna there werevooka written by Herbert's son, House Harkonen, House Atredies and the Emperors House.

[@johnecoapollo7]

This scenario just discounts EVERYBODY'S agency. Why would Leto or Vladimir accept the marriage alliance when their Houses have spent 20+ generations hating and actively opposing each other? Both men also quite clearly have their eyes on the Imperial Throne, each with his own set of plots, Leto through the Landsrad and Vladimir through Fayd and Irulan's marriage. If we get Paulette, House Atreides is likely dead and the Bene Gesserit try their hand at another KH prospect. After all, their plans are measured in centuries not a few years.

[@HereticalKitsune]

I finally started reading the trilogy and every time I open kindle I hear your trailer and in my head you are narrating when I read.

[@marlenewaldron4690]

The one thing I've wondered since the the first time I read Dune, 36+ years ago was...why didn't Jessica just have a daughter immediately after Paul? Bene Gesserit can control their bodies to the extent they can not only choose when to get pregnant but also decide on the sex of the fetus so why not please her sisterhood while making Leto happy as well? Let's say that an eldest female would inherit instead of being passed to a distant cousin (Downton Abbey anyone lol?), the BG would still get their genetic pick with Feyd plus Atreides girl, just not the House being led by her. Yes the BG is all about power, but they also want that golden Atreides gene combo with Harkonnen. It's always bugged me why she waited 15 years before getting pregnant again.

[@ArtemisScribe]

I like how Villeneuve filled this plothole by having Jessica give birth to Paul because she thinks she can produce the chosen one instead of it just being "oh she fell in love with the Duke", because her wanting to dedicate herself to Paul's training is a very good reason for her to not have another child. In the books... I've thought about this a lot and really can't come up with a good answer.

[@Julius_Hardware]

I agree. Its also odd for a house to accept only having a single heir, a huge risk. She could have had a second son (and another shot at the KH?) easily enough, then daughters. One possibility is she knows she is a key part of the BG breeding program, and that gives her the bargaining power to live her own life. Which is a disastrous failure for the BG, but I'd have expected them to have contingency plans.

[@marlenewaldron4690]

@@Julius_Hardware Feyd's daughter by Lady Fenring was their contingency plan.

[@marlenewaldron4690]

@@Julius_Hardware I don't think the BG wants too many potential KHs around at one time; they're in the long game so they're willing to take a small step back and look at their breeding profiles if something doesn't go right for them.

[@Karin_Allen]

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Alia hadn't been pre-born and had produced a baby with Feyd. Would that child definitely been another Kwisatz Haderach?

[@demidrek-heyward]

Thanks Quinn!

[@mpalfadel2008]

Great work Quinn

[@crashtheturtle]

Babe wake up, Quinn just uploaded a What If video.

[@georgewilliams8448]

Another excellent video. Thank you for all the time that you devote to the science fiction genre.

[@legendarymermaid]

I'd like to see more "What If...?" videos from you. Like what if Paul and Jessica hadn't stayed on Arrakis? Or what if the emperor never got jealous of the Atreides in the first place and left them alone?

[@Iranda_]

Everyone seems to be missing one short sentence in "Dune" which actually explains that Jessica did not betray the BG. As the Reverend Mother leaves Jessica and Paul after the gom jabbar test, she says to Jessica "we shall yet succeed", giving her a knowing look. She knows that Jessica is pregnant with a baby girl, so she did fulfill her allegiance to the order, and the child can still be married to a Harkonnen heir. Having Paul only delayed the plan by 15 or so years. Besides, with no sons from Jessica, the Duke could still marry a woman from any of the Great Houses and have as many sons as he liked.

[@babsbylow6869]

As the plan was to mate Feyd to the Atraides female, it would have succeeded if she had the daughter shortly after Paul, as Feyd and Paul are closer to age. Assuming so, Feyd had 20ish years on Alia. An awkward pairing to say the least.

[@Iranda_]

@@babsbylow6869 In case of royalty, anything goes. BTW, Feyd was Baron's nephew, and Jessica was Baron's daughter, so apart from age difference, the Alia/Feyd marriage would have been incestuous. But it was the genes the BG were after, not marriage ethics.

[@babsbylow6869]

@@Iranda_ I'll give it that marriage may not have been part of the plan, that the genes are the plan. Kissin' cousins aren't all that uncommon. Successful breeding has happened from such pairings. It may come off to our modern sensibilities to be a bit oogy, but the power of marriage is a big thing in the Great Houses. An Atraides/Harkonnan marriage would be quite powerful with a good chance to wrest the throne from House Corrino I think when saying "We may yet succeed" she was referring to the possibility of Paul being a successful KH, one under their control. Their plan for the KH .. "May yet succeed "

[@captainfach]

It's crazy watching this video after it was announced that the Dune Awakenings game is going to go with this specific plot

[@jp12x]

I've considered this idea before. Here's my thoughts prior to watching the video: Alia instead of Paul. She's not pre-born. But, the Emperor still feels threatened and sends them to Arrakis. The Sisterhood could try to sway things but I think they're too late. The betrayal by the Emperor shows the Sisterhood couldn't control things as much as they wanted. There, Alia is not prophesied but still contacts the spice. She flees the betrayal with her mother like Paul did. She begins having visions but is not compelled into a messianic role, as there is no prophecy. So, Alia is in a position similar to Ghanima and Leto. Post watch edit: Nice video. The only thing I had a problem with was the working of Jessica's appointment. While loyalty would have played a role, she was also part of the breeding program. The Sisterhood did not have access to infinite Harkonnen grand-daughters to suggest to Leto.

[@danesan1362]

Bene Gesserit's plan probably would have failed regardless. If anything perhaps they would even have less control of the planned Kwisatz Haderach given that he would have been partially raised by the Harkonnens!

[@asumazilla]

What makes you think that they failed? There plan seems to be for human survival. Presumably they realise they would be under control of any super human.

[@danesan1362]

@@asumazilla Because their plan assumed total control of the Kwisatz Haderach which probably they would never have had anyway. Also for a centuries old breeding program they weren't so sure what the ultimate end game was other than the vague promise that the He would use his powers to lead humanity to survive and prosper but they them selves didn't know what that specificaly was. Leto II knew what the Golden Path was and even then they schemed to undermine him. The most that you could argue is that in a weird and roundabout way they succeeded but they didn't realize it and it happened.

[@SuperParadox42]

Before even WATCHING the video, I am giving you a Like for even ASKING the question. What a GREAT fandom question, and if ANYBODY on KZbin is qualified to give a decent answer to it, you are definitely the one.

[@jollyyeholiver1578]

If Jessica had not betrayed the sisterhood, then Paul would never have had children with the fremen and it's the inclusion of the fremen that made Leto2 who he was. And the Quizacks hadderach would have been a totally nightmare and probably would have meant the death of humanity. Jessica was the barons daughter the harkonens were already included in the bloodline. You keep on this line Quinn but the jihad was necessary to save humanity. If Paul was born female, then his son would have been born as a harkonen and identified as a Harkonen- a Harkonen with pressence what a nightmare.

[@iamthesayyadina]

The Sisterhood needed Feyd brought together with Jessica & Leto’s daughter specifically. That would have resulted in a KW they could CONTROL. Paul not only arriving a generation early missing the control element, and being a Mentat on top of it, ended up being the Bene Gesserit’s uncontrollable nightmare. The never wanted a KH at the head of a jihad that caused the death of billions.

[@elliottoju495]

Love your work bro... A subbie from Nigeria, West Africa

[@cosmodious1755]

I know this isn't the kind of thing you generally do but I'd love to hear a more in depth story of how you think things would have played out in this scenario. Also, your content got me into Dune a couple of years ago and I can't thank you enough for that.

[@toddkes5890]

What could have been done is Jessica having a daughter after Paul, as the BG would have explained to Duke Leto that part of the agreement of Lady Jessica being his advisor/concubine was that he would get Lady Jessica pregnant, and the first daughter would be turned over to the Bene Gesserit for raising. Duke Leto would insist upon letters to/from his daughter (as she is a potential heir after Paul) (this is historical, as a life can only equal another life) After several years Duke Leto gets a notification that his daughter has died in an accident during Bene Gesserit training. As a result he trusts the Bene Gesserit far less, and at the same time Lady Jessica refuses to have Paul meet a few Bene Gesserit sisters because she doesn't want her son turned into a breeding bull (it would damage the BG and Mentat training that Paul has been undergoing)

[@gavinsmith9871]

Hey, I see that Way of Kings on your shelf. Nice to see you're also a Cosmere fan as well.

[@astrosaur13]

Phenomenal analysis and projection of what could have been! I totally agree with that conclusion; the Sisterhood would never have been able to control the Kwisatz Haderach in any scenario. Plus, I think House Harkonnen would've tried to bray them all to carve their own path to the throne.

[@James-kv3ll]

Hey Quinn could you talk about the lives of the common folk in the dune universe? I feel like many Scfi series avoid showing that side of their worlds in an effort to tell stories with a larger scope but I think it adds a lot to how fleshed out their universes can be.

[@saphiriathebluedragonknight375]

If there's even anything to talk about.

[@exiled373]

yeah I don't think there is any descriptions in the books.

[@JohnClarkW]

@@exiled373 that was my thought, I don't recall anything on it, but I haven't read any of the Brian Herbert books. I watch Quinn for his distilled versions of that content.

[@tuckernutter]

Yeah when it comes down to it I'm 100% sure there's a trope with the name that goes along the lines of "nobility gets plot focus". And to be fair there's a reason for that: those in power do and have the influence the course of history more than common folk. It would be nice to have a better understanding of the common folk life of the Empirium but their lives are probably just as monotonous and tiring as ours is, even with Spice Milange. It would be like filler with no real purpose than fleshing it out, while Frank -like many an author- only had so much time to get his story out and he wasn't even able to survive past book 6... then Brian and Anderson fucked it all up. So yeah it's entirely excusable why that kind of detail wasn't included.

[@godhand291]

@@saphiriathebluedragonknight375 What comes to mind is in Heretics. Probably not enough for a video, but I found the chapters about Yasai fascinating. There's also the descriptions of life in Keen here and there.

[@duaa7576]

This integral is such an integrity facilitation like how the algorithm actually makes the shapeshifter into a immaculate being

[@EvilSandwich]

To quote a comment I made in a previous video of yours, you can pretty much sum up the entire plot of the first book with the Bene Gesseret slapping their heads and crying, "Ah man! We fucked up!" I'm pretty sure I could sum up what would have happened if Jessica had obeyed The Sisterhood with: "Ah man, we STILL fucked up!"

[@Dissident_Porcupine73]

So, the Atreides daughter would marry her uncle? Cousin? I need a flow chart.

[@janvancura8412]

once removed cousin

[@marlenewaldron4690]

cousin once removed, BUT Feyd's father is only half brother to Baron Harkonnen.

[@dorcaswinter8296]

1st or 2nd cousin, once removed (I believe).

[@jguerrero0311]

The cousin of the friend of the uncle of the maid of the dog and the cat of the neighbor to the godfather of the lady at the corner of the mom of the girlfriend of the grandpa of the nephew of the dude with the car of the mechanic.......or something like that.

[@ogungou9]

@@jguerrero0311: Your complicate relational framework has just frozen Windows 10 ...

[@MrOvertoad]

A Harkonen Quizak Haderack? An uncontrollabled boy that is raised by Fayd and the Baron, who can see the past and future? Think about it.

[@Kenshiro3rd]

Assuming Fayd let Pauline & their kid live… I mean this is a dude who loves stabbing his partners in the back JUST for the fun of it… and he preferred boys, just like his uncle.

[@janvancura8412]

@@Kenshiro3rd He would let them live even thou killing is fun power is much better, also in the book the Baron was saying to him something about learning how to squeze while apering as a liberator. And I doubt that he could kill her since she would have Bene Geserid training.

[@Kenshiro3rd]

@@janvancura8412 possibly, but he also loves screwing up others plans more than anything else, and lacks The Baron’s self control in that regard… to the point where there’s a good chance he might do it just to make a point to the sisterhood… so there’s an EXTREMELY high chance he would… because he’s already hostile towards them, and knowing they want to breed him is likely enough to set him off.

[@marlenewaldron4690]

@@Kenshiro3rd I don't recall Feyd liking boys. I know he liked being with slave women and he slept with Lady Fenring who seduced him on order of the BG when they thought Paul and Jessica were dead along with Leto.

[@Kenshiro3rd]

@@marlenewaldron4690 I remember the book remarking he had similar sexual proclivities as the Baron… I could be wrong. Either way Feyd is well aware of the BG’s designs.

[@sirlight-ljij]

If there was a way to introduce kwisatz haderach to the imperium without creating a messiah figure, Paul would have found it and followed it. He was, after all, using his prophetic vision to search for this exact line. If it would have existed from Bene Gesserit scheming, Paul could have used it as well; as later Leto II was able to take over Bene Gesserit other plans

[@davidboivin7996]

Paul saw the Golden Path as did Leto II. Any Qwisatz Haderach born of an Atreides daughter and Harkonnen son would most likely have seen the Golden Path as well. Same end result in my opinion.

[@kbaccari88]

That makes sense, instead of Leto II, it would have been offspring of (not exactly)Alia and Feyd Whichever offspring could commit to The Golden Path

[@poop6194]

I didn’t read the books before watching the movie but this channel helped me understand the series

[@tsaijohnhans]

Why would any aristocrat bring a Bene Gesserit into their house, even as a concubine, knowing that she cannot be fully trusted since the Sisterhood has ulterior motives?

[@metawakening6233]

Childhoods end! Probably my favorite Clark novel.

[@Danarogon]

Despite the Bene Gessirit planning to breed the Kwisatz Haderach for thousands of years. Weren't the Bene Tleilaxu the first ones to make a Kwisatz Haderach and conclude they were self destructive by nature and abandoned the idea? Or did I misinterpret something from the second Dune Book?

[@BlackEpyon]

Count Fenring was one such attempt. Both he and Paul realized the fact when they first met face to face and realized that each was invisible to the other via prescience. That moment of realization was enough for Count Fenring to refuse Shadam's order to kill Paul.

[@albertamalachi3560]

tl;dr SPOILER for what happens between Paul, Fenring, and Shaddam in a tl;dr joke way: Paul: _sees Fenring_ "!!!" Fenring: _sees Paul_ "?!" Paul: _raises eyebrows. "This is bigger than both of us, dude."_ Fenring: _nods sagely. "Okay, I see it too."_ Fenring: _to Shaddam_ "Can't do it, bro. Trust me." Shaddam: _to Fenring_ "What? How can you do this to me bro! You're not my bro anymore! I hate you forever and ever and ever and ever!..." _Shaddam and Fenring gets exiled to the same planet._ Shaddam: _being a neighbor to Fenring, while mowing the lawn_ "...and ever and ever and ever and ever and...!" Fenring: _sips spice Tea next door, sitting on the porch_ "Okay, bro."

[@davidbrennan660]

The Ideas must Flow... The Living Machine Algorithm has been served.

[@angellover02171]

I think it's important to remember there are other possible kwisatz haderach. Kinda wonder what would happen if there were more than one.

[@no_no_just_no]

i think if they all drank the water of life they would stunt each others prescient abilities. Like the fortune tellers on a massive scale. They would only be able to see clearly as far as the others ability to affect change.

[@saphiriathebluedragonknight375]

Technically there was. Paul, possibly Alia, Leto ll and his sister.

[@angellover02171]

@@saphiriathebluedragonknight375 I mean there are other possible kwisatz haderachs in other families of the landsraad.

[@saphiriathebluedragonknight375]

@@angellover02171 With billions of people one is bound to turn up on accident. If their powers are never awakened then they would never know. Nor would anyone else.

[@angellover02171]

@@saphiriathebluedragonknight375 nope the Bene Gesserit have a thousand year breeding program with all the members of landsraad. At the end of the first book there is an anti kwisatz haderachs that can hide himself from prescience. There were other that were tested but none that survived the water of life.

[@dragondragonwolf]

Then Paul Atreides would instead be named Paula or Pauline Atreides.

[@steveq6847]

Alia

[@jackcarterful]

Stopped what I was doing and clicked immediately.

[@wespetree4143]

Same

[@shanenolan8252]

Me too

[@kamarraimo4391]

They could have convinced the two houses to either bury the hatchet and unite against the Emperor or alternatively suggest the marriage as a truce between the two houses after the betrayal, yet again aiming for the throne. At the end though, I kinda had the idea that the concept of the Kwisatz Haderach turns out to have been a piece of Bene Gesserit hubris and it turns out only a free person with ancestral memories and heightened awareness ends up to be humanity's next step of evolution and its salvation. That's why Leto II grooms Siona and why Duncan is so important.

[@kbaccari88]

If Leto II never bonded with the worm, whatever destroyed humanity in the far future would still happen because humans never became invisible to prescience. Humans would be extinct by the year 200K. "Alia and Feyd sitting in a tree..."

[@Anodythe]

With all the knowledge and power, how could the Sisterhood miss the fact that a Harkonnen daughter was already "married" to an Atreides son. Someone missed the boat on that one.

[@dorcaswinter8296]

Omgosh! That’s actually true. Their plan did technically happen!

[@legendarymermaid]

Oh they were well aware of it. They just didn't care.

[@marlenewaldron4690]

They did not miss that lol. It was entirely planned that Jessica breed with Leto. The BG were trying to augment desired qualities from both Atreides and Harkonnen BACK into one 'supreme being,' their long desired kwisatz haderach.

[@Karin_Allen]

@@marlenewaldron4690 Yes, the BG kept very meticulous breeding records. They thought they needed to double down on the Atreides-Harkonnen genetic traits in order to produce the Kwisatz Haderach; but like the book famously says, he came a generation earlier than they had expected.

[@Tim.Stotelmeyer]

Several Harkonnen blood lines getting merged with an Atreidies blood line. The Barron's blood line through Jessica and Feyd's combined blood lines from his parents.

[@andreavolpe2234]

Very intresting! I'm writeing a book of my own! Very nice videos mate! ... also nice hat 😄

[@shanenolan8252]

Best of look with your book andrea . ( good for you )

[@JayDeeChannel]

Can you do a video on the bene gesserit and their generations long quest for the QH. How did they match the parents? How do they know who to match with whom? How do they know if the QH is close?

[@OffScreen]

I'd read this story if they released it as a book. These sort of deep dives are what I like about this channel.

[@barryscott6222]

Paul is really only important in the context of what transpired on Arrakis. But under more normal circumstances, Jessica having Paul would have been neither here nor there. Jessica could still have had the Bene Gesserit Daughter at any time - and indeed had already conceived a daughter by the time the family arrived on Dune. Absent the Spice Agony, Alia would have grown up normally, and could well have become the wife of the Harkonnen heir. As I understand the story, it is only the genetics of the two family lines that were important to the Bene Gesserit. But if there was any issue of precedence of succession, and inheritance - then I am sure the Bene Gesserit could have arranged for a quiet accident, to remove Paul from the picture at a later date, if necessary. Paul really is an irrelevance in the grand scheme of things - other than as a consequence of a fairly long stream of improbably circumstances, which happened to thrust him (rather unwillingly) into prominence.

[@kevinhaynes9091]

"What if Jessica hadn't had Paul?" We wouldn't have got Dune the novel, Denis Villeneuve wouldn't have been inspired as a 14 year old, we wouldn't have got two of my favourite sci-fi films, Arrival (2016) and Dune (2021), my life would have had no meaning, and David Lynch wouldn't have become a bitter old man. Did I miss anything...!?

[@templarw20]

"Nothing else goes wrong." Yeah, I think that's the key. I think the Sisterhood is more likely to be wrong in more ways than they want to admit. Personally, I would like the idea that a daughter is born... and has all the powers and abilities they thought only a male child would have.

[@Mocoso7]

Democrat Feminist?

[@eyesofthecervino3366]

@@Mocoso7 In fairness, if your whole strategy is to breed a superhuman through eugenics it doesn't make a whole awful lot of sense to exclusively breed women for millennia, and then expect to get a better result by suddenly throwing in an entirely unhoned Y chromosome. It's nothing to do with either men or women being better -- it's just an inherent contradiction to the whole premise of improvement through control.

[@billthevillageidiot4069]

she could of had twins , a daughter and a son , and killed 2 birds with 1 stone and made every one happy ;) lol :)

[@pauliutzi5648]

I'm curious how Appendix III of Dune plays into this. My quick read of it suggests the Kwisatz Haderach was acting backwards through time to ensure its awakening before Paul was born, which I would think means that it wouldn't be possible for Jessica to have had a daughter. I've not read beyond the first book, though, so I'm not sure if that's addressed later in the series. Anyway, great video!

[@ursaber]

I am certain Duke Leto would not have approved of the match between his daughter heir and his hated enemy's scion, but he likely would have been pressured into it or forced by various parties

[@remi4020]

I think you are forgetting one important variable in this "what-if" analysis. The Emperor. He felt threatened by House Atreides alone (as you mentioned, regardless of the gender of Paul). Enough to plot their downfall. The Harkonnens have been getting very rich from their fiefdom over Arrakis and (and there I don't fully remember what was said in the books, sadly) it is conceiveable that the Emperor wanted to weaken House Harkonnen as well. A union between those Houses would have been an even higher threat to the Emperor! And I think he would have not accapted that without any opposition. A plan involving the Emperor (==> Irulan) to some degree seems more plausible to me (politically), while the Bene Gesserit put their money on an Atreides & Harkonnen union.

[@sombient]

We're all assuming that if Paul had not been the Kwisatz Haderach of prophecy.... that we'd see the Kwisatz Haderach born in just the next generation or two. But many had tried and died before Paul, and likely many would have continued to try and die if Paul had not succeeded in converting the Water of Life. The Bene Gesserit put a lot of faith into their Breeding Program but they may have not even understood the conditions required to create the Kwisartz Haderach.

[@rogue8903]

It's all destined to happen... Her betrayal of the sisterhood and why she had Paul were all in sync with what's about to take place in the future. He was born for it. If Lady Jessica didn’t have him, none of this would happen. He's cursed and blessed at the same time.

[@busterbrown3790]

I think there still ends up being a God Emperor in this scenario, perhaps even by the Kwizatz himself, instead of one of his offspring.

[@TheTrueMalice]

I love the idea that the second their man made messiah wouldn't look into their own past and see they were made to be a pawn of the Sisterhood. It is human to live confined as long as comfortable but, the second you make someone realize you are making them be there they want to leave.

[@jerrysstories711]

What I wonder is, if Jessica's daughter marries Feyd to end the Atreides-Harkonnen blood feud, wouldn't their son have to serve as head of the combined house? Well that makes two problems. First, the Harkonnens would be raising the KH to prepare him to inherit their house, so the BG wouldn't have direct control over him. Second, the combined Atreides-Hark House would be so powerful the Emperor would crush it even more eager than he crushed the Atreides!

[@tracys169]

Maybe..just maybe...the son of female Paul(a) and Feyd Rautha, leader of both Harkonnen and Atreides house is to be married to one of the Corino's daughters? So many hypothetical.

[@jerrysstories711]

@@tracys169 Well, if THAT, was the BG plan, could have gotten Jessica preg by Leto, then marry him to one of Shaddam's daughters. I've never been clear on why Shaddam didn't do that anyway instead of allying with the icky Harkonnens.

[@anonymouslyunknown4811]

Always look forward to your videos

[@WizardofWestmarch]

The simple thing that makes the BG plan a bad one is, if the QH can see the future and the past and have so much information, and believe in his visions, what is the point of their conditioning? Either he actually believes the visions and uses them to shape humanity as is necessary, or the visions already show what the Bene Gesserit want and he was entirely unnecessary anyway.

[@vtheawesome]

I'm glad Kwisats Haderach Vladimir Harkonen-Atreides II never came into existence

[@davefuller634]

Just started this amazing world and loving it.

[@Intentt]

Can you do a video on the failed quizat haderach ? i've always found that bit of the books super interesting

[@jaybates3816]

Nice video, Quinn. I've asked that same question for years. I guess that the Kwisatz Haderach prophecy was inevitable after all, regardless of the circumstances. So, does that also mean that the Fremen revolt and the events of the next generation of the Atreides family would've still occurred?

[@rogerw3818]

Thus, the spin-off series was born. Gotta be worth at least six movies.

[@woyame1]

I never read the Dune books past 'God Emperor', but as I recall, one of the appendices of the first book contains a report (commissioned by the sisterhood or Paul - I don't remember which) assessing why events unfolded the way they did. The report concludes that the sisterhood was unknowingly a pawn in someone else's plan. Later books implied that larger plan was the work of the Bene Tleilax, but that even they had not gotten the results they wanted. Did the books following 'God Emperor' address or amend that train of thought?

[@rooktakesbishop7938]

I Find your voice very engaging, are you going to release a reading of the dune series????!!! Thanks for all of the content👍

[@andybyrd4107]

What I find ironic is the Bene Gesserit ended up getting exactly what they wanted, a leader who could see both the past and the possible futures of humanity and ensure the future survival of the species. And they hated it!

[@picklesnoutpenobscott3165]

Ultimately, fate cannot be avoided. Interesting take Quinn, thanks. Of all the insights people may offer, I weigh yours more heavily on the subject of Dune.

[@joeblaster8770]

3:01 Leto says HELL NO!

[@yardh]

There seemed to be only one golden path available for prescients in the Dune universe. Any individual who looked forwards and backwards would seemingly fall into its trap until the Siona gene was introduced.

[@patreekotime4578]

I dont think its likely that the Baron would allow such a marriage to change his plans for vengence. The Baron wanted Feyd to marry a Corrino princess and take the throne so its doubtful he would have given up that ambition. If the BG had spirited away Jessicas daughter and made her lineage secret then a concubine pairing is much more likely. But even if it had all gone to plans a few things I think are still set in stone: regardless of what happens the Baron would not have abandoned his plans for vengence and would have slaughtered the Atreides even after a marriage "truce". And the resulting child would still eventually become aware of his lineage and especially become aware of the BG role in his breeding and incestuous parentage and the role his paternal side played in the genocide of his maternal side. Those factors IMO make it unlikely that the BG would have been able to control him and once he begins having visions, we cannot know if they wouldn't have lead him to Arrakis on his own. The whole idea that the BG would ever be able to control a Supreme Being is just pure idiological hubris. It is something akin to inventing nuclear fission and thinking it will never be weaponized. The radicalization or insanity of any Kwizatz Hadderack seems inevitible, which seems to be the realization the Tleilaxu come to. They are unpredictable and uncontrollable by thier nature, and the history of events that created them (which they will always discover) plays a direct role in turning them against thier creators.

[@Etticos.]

I love this. Please do a whole “Dune: What If” series. With your mastery and understanding of the material I feel like you could produce some really cool stories and circumstances. So much potential. How about doing, “What if Jessica did not convert the Water of Life while pregnant and thus Alia was never an abomination”? I think that could be interesting too.

[@AuskaDezjArdamaath]

No because Jessica would have just been dead. End of story for her and Alia.

[@elevown]

I never understood why the Kwisatz Haderach had to be a man anyway. Why not just breed one of their own who could do the same thing- they were already very powerful beings. Because if Paul, a man, can connect to the female side of the human races conciousness or whatever - then it follows, why couldnt a women learn to do the opposite?

[@ArtemisScribe]

Because it was written in the 1960s by a dude born in the 1920s.

[@marlenewaldron4690]

According to the BG it was because a female couldn't see into the male genetic memories. *We know this is untrue because Alia and Ghanima are able to but the BG considers them Abomination and thus unable to be controlled by the BG.*

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

The "scientific" explanation is that the genetic memory was stored in the sexual chromosomes, causing the BG to only have access to the "female" xx while the "male" could access both the x of the mother and the y of the father. Of course this would lead into all sorts of trouble concerning accessing to maternal grandfathers, which also happens to be an important plot device, but that's where we start to suspend disbelief and remind ourselves that as the other commenter already stated, this is a book written in the 60's by a guy born early in the 20th century, and none of this biologically makes any sense to begin with.

[@elevown]

@@BLooDCoMPleX lol ok- that works.

[@Rosie-yt8nd]

the essential idea of the golden path is that humanity should not be easily controlled or strongly influenced by a single source. Be it spice, the empire or the bene gesserit, the ability to manipulate and control humanity like that makes it vulnerable to the unknown preditor because it makes their actions predictable. I believe the Bene gesserit are part of the reason the Golden Path had to be so drastical and harsh, their control and steering of humanity was so pervasive but also powerful, it did not allow for humanity to scatter and splinter like it needs to. To branch out into too many divisions to count and find. A quisatz haderach under their control would either doom humanity further, or realise the error of their ways. Leto's message was that nobody should have the power he has, he made sure nobody ever would again

[@irisfailsafe]

This new supreme being would probably destroy the sisterhood as it would realize that he didn't need them and they were an obstacle

[@albdamned577]

short answer: Alia bangs Feyd Rautha until they produce the kwisatz haderach

[@BixRibene]

She can still have Paul, but she just has a daughter first... All she has to do is seal the bloodline.

[@Trasgu7]

I have 2 theories regarding the female daughter and the destruction of the Atreides: 1: I don't think the Atreides would have willingly married her daughter to a Harkonnen such as Feyd. She would have never got along with him and such a marriage wouldn't work even if it was just a thing for the dynastical implications. So the plan to destroy the Atreides was set in motion decades before to FORCE the daughter of Jessica to marry a Harkonnen after the destruction of House Atreides, or the other way around, to force Feyd into marriage as a gesture of good will on the part of the Atreides if they won such a war. However, when they learned about Paul, it was too late to stop the flow of events, already in motion. 2: The Bene Gesserit, being Bene Gesserit, probably knew (or at least suspected) Jessica would disobey them by having a male son. The destruction of the Atreides was set in motion when they learned about Paul, in order to prevent a quasi-Kwisatz Haderach that they couldn't control from leading a Great House. They probably expected to provide "assylum" to Paul and Jessica after the destruction of the Atreides, to control them and to preserve their genetic line. The Bene Gesserit were perfectly able to accomplish any of these things by means of political manipulation. To me, the least likely explanation is that events caught the BG by surprise.

[@vigilstudios3010]

Quinn please do some videos on Childhood's End!

[@shengcer]

um…so Harkonnen’s granddaughter would marry Harkonnen’s son? Gesserit is a twisted organization. Jessica did the right thing.

[@angellover02171]

Queen Elizabeth married her cousin. Fayd is somehow related to a Baron but he isn't his son.

[@WickedCool23]

Feyd is the Baron’s nephew Feyd and “Paula” would be 1st cousins once removed.

[@angellover02171]

@@WickedCool23 not inbred on a technicality

[@Nunavuter1]

One wonders why the Bene Gesserit did not demand Jessica have a daughter after Paul was born. There was nothing stopping Jessica from having a daughter a year or two after Paul. In 10191 Paul would just have a 13-year-old sister who was destined to be sent off to Wallach IX for training. Given the threat to the Atreides bloodline posed by the Emperor's plans, which the Reverend Mother Mohiam knew of, Paul's younger sister would likely have not been sent to Arrakis at all. She would have been sent off to Wallach IX.

[@Samaritan38]

To answer that question, the Bene Gesseritt would've half-fulfilled their plan (by marrying a Atreides female to Harkonnen male) and not the 'Kwitzach Haderach' prophecy unless the Atreides female is born with potential messianic powers by snuffing enough Spice Melange and drank the Water of Life, then it'll pretty much go the same as the actual 'Dune' story.

[@wolfbane7497]

What if Vladimir of house harkonen found out that Jessica was his daughter.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Interesting alternate scenario. I'll admit I'm writing something of a complex fanfic of sorts, with an alternate history scenario. Not this particular scenario with Jessica, but with certain events transpiring differently once the Atreides arrive on Arrakis. As a result, the duke dies in different circumstances, and Paul's and Jessica's lives and actions diverge from there. The idea I want to explore in this alternate timeline is Paul gradually manoeuvering himself (mostly unwittingly) to never becoming Muad'Dib and the Fremen's Mahdi. Under the influence of his visions in the canon timeline, Paul is very fatalistic in Dune about his "terrible purpose" and "inevitable fate". What I want to explore in my story is the idea that he wasn't at all so devoid of choices as he thought he was. The outcomes of that should prove interesting. Wish me luck with the writing.

[@elliottoju495]

Just started reading the Dune books... I soooo love them

[@Argonova]

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen was seduced into having a child (presumably a son) with Lady Margo Fenring. The existence of this child is a plot thread that is never brought up after the first novel however. In Dune Messiah, the Sisterhood tries to get Paul's sperm and/or couple him with Alia. Why did the Bene Gesserit not try to arrange a marriage between Alia and Feyd's offspring, as this would have been consistent with their original plan to pair the daughter Jessica was supposed to have had with Feyd?

[@neilmurphy966]

Maybe there was some deep uneasiness over their B.G. concept of abomination and Alia could've represented a danger to that way.. their offspring would've been too difficult to control..moreso!!? 😉

[@cb2291]

Quinn have you ever considered doing a piece on the Ninth World? Numenera lore, or Planescape?

[@sharpfang]

Big question: WHY did Bene Gesserit want the Kwisatz Haderach? Sure, under their control he'd be a useful tool, giving them even more power and control over the universe... but ultimately, what for? From the look of things, I got the impression that power and control weren't their goals in themselves, just tools to achieve other goals - like the Kwisatz. What was their final purpose, their final goal?

[@marknovak6498]

I keep thinking like you they were making something they could not control. It is an underlying idea f so many classic stories.

[@insaneworld211]

My own little idea, have not read the books yet. I feel like Jessica's loyalty to the sisterhood would have won out her growing love for Leto if she was confronted by the fact that he could never truly be hers. As in, Leto's engagement happened early on in his & Jessica's relationship. But i think Jessica would regret her choice afterwords when Pauline (Theres gotta be a better name) was born. Leto would have been a tad disappointed but he would have absolutely loved Pauline despite her gender and start making plans within plans for her future as Duchess. Maybe Jessica realized the same with Paul, that she wants more for her child then what the BG have planned. Probably the same, Jessica teaches Pauline their ways without the conditioning. Which the BG wouldn't know perhaps since how much loyalty Jessica has shown, they dont suspect that now she defys them. Also would Pauline's existence help Leto give more support to Irulan becoming Empress? Would it unintentional help improve relationships between their houses? Also no way Leto would let Pauline marry Fay'ed unless the Emperor demanded it to make peace between both houses. Or unless Leto set his own conditions for this marriage. Such as Fey'ed being fostered with them until both are of age to wed. And that Pauline IS the Duchess and holds all the power over their house. That without Paulines go ahead, Fay'ed cant do anything. Maybe that Fay'ed takes their house name after marriage. Totally see Leto shape a young Fay'ed into the perfect loyal husband for Pauline. Though i still think Fay'ed would still be ruthless maybe even still sociopathic/psychopathic in some ways. But idk being under Leto and shown affection by all of house Atradies even if manipulated to ensure his loyalty. Might work out. Only thing i see being a turning point is that the BG realizing that they can't control Fay'ed & Pauline. Both are willful and knowing what the BG plans to do to their future child. Would fight against it. Maybe even the BG still plan the destruction of house Atradies but ONLY after Pauline & Fay'ed have married and find out that Pauline is pregnant that they proceed. Probably the same as the books, Duchess Pauline is given Dune to governor. House Atradies is attacked but the BG want Pauline alive and taken everyone else dead. The Baron has the same motives and probably considers Fay'ed a traitor to thier house. From there idk how it would go. Would only Leto die in the attack? Pauline & Jessica escaping, Fay'ed taken prisoner and used as entertainment for the Baron, such as a slave fighter. Would Pauline still make herself as the messiah among the Fremen or would she become a reverend mother and convince the people her talking fetus is the Messiah yet to be born. That his powers fuel her to see what Paul sees in the movie Fay'ed probably starts a rebellion or escapes somehow meets up with Gunny and goes back to Dune to seek revenge and wants the Fremen's help. And then bam sees Pauline is alive and so is their talking fetus son. Thats all i got, again just an idea. Feel free to critique

[@hollybyrd6186]

I couldn't imagine the trauma that would come, from marring a harkonnen

[@davidgoodwin4148]

The reason why Paul could not take up the golden path is because he was a generation early. Paul was a forward echo of Leto. Leto created himself by manipulating time. The sisters were influenced to create the path to Leto by Leto.

[@Flameboar]

I saw DUNE on Sunday- marvelous!!!

[@jeanwesleynew]

Nice video. I was thinking the same thing a couple of weeks ago.

[@kailen98]

If she didn’t there would be no book saga.

[@maxnewellmz8025656]

I like these kind of videos.