The Tragic Women of Dune

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Check out Warhammer 40,000: Tacticus! play.tacticusgame.com/JessoftheShireNov

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

It's cool how much recognition you've got in recent months.

[@spencerarnold669]

would actually be fun to see you react to Warhammer lore

[@GeraltofRizziaa]

Not sure if anyone’s told you this, but you have a voice that’s made for audiobooks.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thank you so much!

[@HellBoy-id6ss]

She does annunciate extremely well..

[@spencerarnold669]

where as I have a face made for audiobooks

[@MarkusJackDijkgraaf]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire read all of Frank Herberts Dune Books. I'd pay premium for that (for my standards).

[@demongrenade2748]

Jess being sponsored by a warhammer 40k game was not on my bingo card. Speaking of 40k, i'd definitely like to see your take on some of the books, or maybe even see you discuss dune's influence on the 40k universe. I think that'd be pretty cool.

[@Turskaruhtinas]

Not 40K, but I used to love Gotrek & Felix -stuff as a young adult.

[@agatatryhubczak9469]

I personally really like the story of princess Irulan because throughout the 2nd and 3rd book she turns from a proud and self - serving person into an empathetic and selfless caretaker of Leto and Ghanima, children of a man who did't even love her. She treated them as if they were her own and it makes me feel all soft and mushy inside 🥺

[@pufthemajicdragon]

Irulan's character is always under-represented. Most of what you know of her you see in her writings, the intros to every chapter, but it's precisely because of that that she is one of the most important and meaningful characters in the novels. And her growth in Messiah and Children cannot be overstated. I feel for Frank and David's remorse when Universal left Irulan's narration out of the Alan Smithee cut of 1984's DUNE film. You know, if someone wanted to expand the Dune universe in a new and meaningful way, I'd love to see the story from Irulan's perspective. (Just not written by Brian, please god no)

[@johnwinebrenner1231]

I agree with you. There also the perspective that for the Bene Gesserit the male is only to be milked for his DNA then can be cast aside, as was Duke Leto for all intent and purposes. Remember the line in the second movie, "The bloodline is secured".

[@aletheuo475]

The ground here in England is covered in snow at the moment. Its kinda weird, but delightful to think of hot, desert planets.

[@54032Zepol]

Also rules by space Muslims, looks like y'all have something in common after All

[@christopherwhittaker2620]

Yep, it’s snowing here in Manchester and it’s absolutely freezing…so yeah I couldn’t agree more

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I always end up thinking about Dune in the winter. I think Dune in the summer would feel redundant

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Fascinating 🤔! What books and films do you think about during the summer?

[@jimluebke3869]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Some summers in central California were only bearable thinking about Jack London's "To Build a Fire".

[@archer1949]

Tragedy aside, “St Alia of the Knife” is a cool moniker to have.

[@NomadicElfling]

… my autistic brain immediately went “INFO DUMP ON ME ALL YOU WANT, IDC” when you said you were worried about info dumping 😅😅

[@epicsakura101]

Dune is a *fascinating* story with an even more fascinating universe. I never went past book 1, but I love the universe and I appreciate people who make content like this.

[@holdintheaces7468]

The rest of the series is very different. Probably worth finishing the books Frank wrote, but the second book is quite jarring.

[@ashleyhamilton5064]

Part of Herbert writing Dune Messiah was people talking about how heroic Paul was. He's not a hero. He's a slave of his own prescience and his actions cause a great deal of harm and damage to the Fremen and the rest of the Imperium. Dune Messiah was there to point that out. Paul is our protagonist but he isn't our hero.

[@pufthemajicdragon]

I really hope you do read the rest of the series (Frank's, don't touch Brian's with a 10 foot pole). Paul's story is a tragedy, and I think it's important to recognize that. But also, he's not the main character of the series. Also, Heretics and Chapterhouse are dominated by powerful woman main characters and I absolutely adore them.

[@LikeTheBuffalo]

The Hobbits of Arrakis sounds like a dope fanfic.

[@michaelshelton5488]

Or a cool band name 🤘

[@colindunnigan8621]

Alia's death at the end of the Children of Dune miniseries is one of the tragic and moving scenes in science fiction TV. "I miss my brother..."

[@RABartlett]

The recent movie "Small Things Like These", about the Magdalene Laundries, is a very sobering look about women perpetuating the oppression of women--basically the "paying it foward" you talk about, either drunk off the measure of power they're able to secure, or simply because thinking about the wider implications is too painful. If I remember correctly, Jessica was ordered to conceive a girl as a prospective match for Feyd--while a lot of the women in the story got the short end of the stick, I can't help but think they were all probably better off than this hypothetical daughter, if only just.

[@josiahedwin5276]

I read the Dune books and enjoyed them for the story and plotlines. It is so amazing to have creators like you blowing my socks off by bringing to light themes and ideas which I never even considered! Your work is stunning, and I can't wait till your next upload.

[@andyl7303]

Your Dune videos are my favorite Dune videos, Jess. Please keep them coming! Dune Prophesy let’s go!! Also looking forward to your reflections on Heretics and Chapterhouse!

[@toddharkey486]

Absolutely! The analysis of Dune: Prophecy on KZbin so far is pretty shallow and (like much of KZbin film/TV criticism) toxic. I am eager to hear Jess give a much more thoughtful take.

[@Marchochias]

Great video, but I think you might have misunderstood something slightly, it’s a Fremen tradition where matriarchs drink the water of life, not a bene gesserit one. Bene gesserit don’t all do that, which is why Jessica hadn’t done it and was nervous about doing it when Stilgar demanded that she do it.

[@patatequiroule]

Both Bene Gesserit reverend mothers and Fremen "wild" reverend mothers are created by absorbing and transmuting spice essence (water of life), but how much of this reality is known to Jessica in either case is a bit ambiguous. I've always assumed Jessica's choice was one of both survival and political play to secure a place for her and Paul within Fremen society.

[@fabrisseterbrugghe8567]

It's stated that there are multiple poisons which can induce the death trance unlocking the genetic memory, but once a reverend mother uses spice for the trance, nothing else will work.

the female characters i love most will appear in "Heretics of Dune" and "Chapterhouse Dune". Darwi Odrade, Taraza, Bellonda and Sheeana.

[@ce_rouse]

I hope you read the last three books of Dune. Most people ive met irl have only read one or two books but make it seem they've Dune all figured out.

[@moof2614]

First of all, love the Dune coverage! Another great video. Have you thought of covering the later Dune novels? I feel like Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune are fascinating books that don't get nearly enough love and appreciation.

[@Ennahdee]

Love that Frank Herbert based the Bene Gesserit on his overbearing Catholic aunts

[@Loki-g3k]

And the concern about thinking machines and how humans literally started a war to destroy them. It's a fascinating concept because it could be a possibility in the future.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

It makes sense lol

[@Yandarval]

Eight (Irish) Catholic aunts, tried to force Catholicism on Herbert, which failed, if I remember correctly.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

Hear me out...Sister Act, but with the Bene Gesserit!

[@Omnifarious0]

I think the Bene Gesserit represent the pinnacle of feminine strength and power, and it's ascension over masculine power. One thing I dislike about modern feminism is that it tells women that the only real power is masculine power. Everybody in the Dune universe is constrained in their choices, just as I think everybody in reality is constrained in their choices. There is no ideal, there is the best you can do with what you have. As for equal, I do think Jessica _is_ Duke Leto's equal. He treats her as such. She has power, respect, and loyalty within his house. One of the many tragedies of Paul (and his son) is that he can have no equal. Even so, I think Chani is as much of an equal for Paul as anyone can be.

[@Jamhael1]

She was Paul's first teacher of the desert.

[@trol68419]

Yeah the last 2 of Frank Herbert's books treat the women far more differently. The Bene Gesserit really step up and become humanity's last line of defense against a formidable foe, who are also predominantly women with terrifying power. Those books are also really weird, with some surprising sexual content. I wish Frank could've lived long enough to have written the 7th novel.

[@DeLaVegaDinosaur69]

I really loved Odrade. My favorite character in the series.

[@hurgcat]

@@DeLaVegaDinosaur69 The Teg, Tar, Dar, and Duncan 9000 group are such a fun group of characters

[@Theo_Caro]

Your use of costumes is consistently just the right amount of flashy. It adds to the overhaul character of the video, providing some thematic visual interest while not distracting from the words being spoken. Bravo!

[@GilTheDragon]

I think Jessica's perspective regarding Alia's disjunction & death points to something i have suspected; the gene-memories are a lot less real, rather at least somewhat socially constructed. The BG notion of Abomination becoming something of a mindvirus or self fulfilling prophecy by providing a self-destructive concept around which the person afflicted organizes their sense of self. Like so much of Dune is about being suspicious & skeptical about the narratives we encounter & build. & yet even if Jessica feels/knows that the concept is a false & toxic one... doesnt she further fail Alia by not showing compassion & understanding to her daughter who has been poisoned by the society around her?

[@Jamhael1]

Nah, not really: an Abomination exists because of the "lack" of a strong self to keep the other personalities at bay. Case in point: Leto II practically COMPLAIN that he is bored to almost madness because even after thousands of years, he see that Humans are still the "same" - having sex, having children, going to war, etc - through his analisis of his own genetic memories.

[@lyndsiedavis4490]

hello!!! i just wanted to say you’re one of my favorite youtubers and have been for well over a year at this point. your videos have had such a big impact on my life. i just wanted you to know that you are very loved, and the art you make matters very much (and yes, i consider this art rather than content-the way you ‘wax poetic’ as you like to say). frank herbert may have thought humanity was miserable most of the time, but with your vids on in the background reminding me all the good things about books i hoped life would always be, it’s at least very tolerable :) i hope you had a very good day today.

[@jasonknight8581]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Chani sacrificed her power and individuality to be with Paul, who although he may love her as much as he is able to, definitely didn't make an equal sacrifice for the sake of the relationship.

[@jimluebke3869]

Children are nothing to gain? See, this is why we're in a fertility crisis. No culture will have values like yours, by the end of the century. Those that have, and cannot change, will be extinct.

[@ninshu6paths659]

I don’t get it , what power did Chani have?

[@Jamhael1]

What sacrifice you expected?

[@Jamhael1]

​@@ninshu6paths659 she was Paul's teacher.

[@Peecamarke]

I like how you have a video devoted to giving the female characters some shine. Would love to see this for other stories

[@ParameterGrenze]

Suggesting that Frank Herberts women are sidelined is ridiculous.

[@Valdagast]

The mind-good-body-bad goes back at least to Plato.

[@Stamboul]

"Chani is not Bene Gesserit but she still folds into her designated role without any kind of protesting" True, she's not BG, but she is a Fremen. Her culture instilled into her the notion that her fate is to be a means to an end, that she would eventually have to sacrifice her individuality for some collective greater good. Paul consciously hijacks that cultural trope; her submission to Paul parallels that of almost all Fremen society. I'm of 2 minds regarding the change in Chani's personality between the book and the films, and that's putting aside the complications it introduces for the next sequel (which is admittedly a lot to put aside). On the one hand, film Chani is a much more interesting character than book Chani, and the scenes in the 2nd film that feature her tell a better story because of it. Rereading the book in my 30s, I actually found myself wishing that Paul had shacked up with Harah instead - that's certainly not a thought I ever had while reading it in my teens. On the other hand, film Chani feels more like a modern-day Western woman than a Fremen. She lacks the inhuman pragmatism that her culture demands even in affairs of the heart. The 2nd film tries to justify this by dividing the Fremen into the "fundamentalist" Southerners and the (implicitly more liberal) Northerners. It doesn't really work, because cultural divisions among the Fremen are only superficially addressed, but it's certainly better than nothing.

[@hughfisher9820]

Thanks for a thoughtful woman's view of Dune and the female characters. And I do hope you'll find time to read Heretics/Chapter House of Dune. Frank Herbert does his normal "everything you learned in the previous books is wrong" thing but they really do centre around the future Bene Gesserit.

[@michaelrae9599]

Disagree. The women in Dune are aware of the systems and react in their own way. Lady Jessica may be the most calculating psychopath of the whole cast, although her story is not told directly. The women appear as powerful, but in a female-ish type of way, not trying for power, but control.

[@justinquzar3467]

Congratulations you understand the video

[@pure_the0ry]

Jessica has always been my favorite dune character. When I read the book I fell in love with the introspective brilliance and terrifying power that she exuded, in her ability to read and interact carefully with other characters like Yueh, Leto, Hera, Chani, Paul and Thufir.

[@toddharkey486]

I am consistently amazed by the quality of your writing in these videos. Your thoughts and perspective are always beautifully expressed.

[@alexandramoore8200]

Really love your deep dives on the dune series - your insights add so much to my understanding of the books. Also i love your hair chain thing!

[@zvenlin]

Thank you Reverend Mother Jess

[@tobyyasutake9094]

I am incredibly impressed. Dune is very multi layered, and you showed me a layer I never considered

[@Sontus718]

I feel that you are letting your biases carry you away - Having read Dune, the series, several times, I felt that the participation of the women was very strong - There is a difference between the functions, tasks, of the two sexes: the men are very short time oriented with the actions, while the planing and control of the women is over much longer time frames, thus they aren't as prevalent in the day to day actions as the men - this enhances the story as you see the differences, even in the important where Jessica goes against the sisterhood in providing the unwanted son in the wrong generation. Not all characters must be front stage all the time.

[@ninshu6paths659]

Thank you

[@DavidMonarres]

Watch the video. That is nearly exactly what she said.

[@yourstrulyjohnnydollar8775]

Heretics and Chapter House are dominated by female characters. I would recommend them.

[@domc2452]

Great vid, thank you! I think there's a lot that you would appreciate in Heretics / Chapter House. I'm mid-way through a re-read right now though, so perhaps I'm slightly biased :)

[@chassoto]

Awesome you are taking on Dune. I have been a fan of the books since I picked up the first one around 1985. You might reconsider your assessment of Chani's place in Paul's life, and the ultimate fate of the universe (down through all the books later). Villaneuve didn't really get Chani right (but I'm not mad, just disappointed). She played a far bigger role in the POLITICS around which Paul and his progeny became the fulcrum of human activity for millennia. And this wasn't accidental. She was an equal with Jessica in this regard, which Jessica eventually comes to understand.

[@krosst1]

Awesome vid Jess, thank you.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thanks so much for watching!

[@iammatthewdavid03]

Wait a second, this isn’t Friday lol. But I’ll watch nonetheless

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

Maybe she has holiday plans coming up and had to work around that?

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Surprise!

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Will there be a video next week or do you have Thanksgiving plans?

[@CamJ95]

Always here for more dune content 🙌🏻

[@Ken-n1h]

Paul sisters was such a sad story in Dune

[@LicheLordofUndead]

Alia is my favorite Dune Female of the first three books, and yes her life was very tragic.

[@daltongrowley5280]

I quite liked Odrade from the fifth and sixth book. Generally, they're about the galaxy finally breaking free of the shadow of Leto II.

[@schuylermorissette4821]

This entry could also be subtitled "Concubines' of Dune"

[@michaelshelton5488]

Robert Jordan's Aes Sedai remind me of the Bene Gesserit

[@billtownsend937]

Just finishing your vid would love to hear you talk Bene Gesserit vs Honored Matres and the return to certain parts of humanity for the Bene Gesserit Herbert teases in their journey 5 and 6.

[@st.anselmsfire3547]

You have to do a sequel talking about Siona and the fish speakers from God Emperor of Dune.

[@Indra-Ant]

Dear Lady Jess in a chair, with chains in her hair. Cyclical Trauma, indeed! You're right on about that. The abused of today become the abusers of tomorrow. Who is to blame if everyone is a tool? Whoever used and abused you is to blame. We all have a choice to make about how we live our lives and treat others. In the real world, we might wonder if any given person even knew there was another way to live (victims of abuse often know only abuse, and can see no other way). We might forgive them for their ignorance. But in a world like Dune, where everyone is a supposed super-genius, the expectation is that they know exactly what they're doing. They could choose to be kind, they could choose to share power, they could choose to try to right their wrongs, or they could choose any other of a myriad of paths. That's why it's so difficult for me to accept that Paul or Leto were actually able to properly see the future and plot another course. Rather, they look to me like drug addled addicts with delusions of grandeur. They only think that they are perfect.

[@Abacabb1]

God, I love when you talk about Dune! I need to finish all the books before I watch everything, though.

[@vernamckinnon129]

One thing that always miffed me, having read the book more than once, is the end exchange between Jessica and Chani at the end-Jessica tells her not to be worried (am paraphrasing) about Princess Irulan marrying Paul-history will call us wives. My beef (and the fact that a man wrote this thinking it was good point) is that these women were powerful priestesses and warrior with knowledge and respect. Dune is a male dominated tale, and its purpose was to show the dangers of following messiahs. Paul is not a hero. His followers turn him unwilling victim.

[@fogshedder]

babe wake up there's a new Jess of the Shire Dune video

[@johnnypop-tart335]

Only an eldar witch would know I'm painting warhammer while listening to them.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I see all.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire I buy that!

[@johnnypop-tart335]

​@@Jess_of_the_Shire corrupted by tzeentch. I'm so sad

[@TylerChambers-yx2lx]

Also, if you have read it, the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons has many of the same Dune-like blends of sci-fi and fantasy that I think you would enjoy discussing here so much.

[@HelenoLicurgodoAmaral]

If I can suggest further reading in the subject, let me point two books: 1. "Dune and Philosophy: Minds, Monads, and MuadDib", Kevin S. Decker (editor). Specially chapters: "1 Liberating Women’s Bodies: Feminist Philosophy and the Bene Gesserit of Dune", Kara Kennedy, and "5 (Re)defining Masculinity and Femininity in Villeneuve’s Dune", Edwardo Pérez. 2. Women’s Agency in the Dune Universe: Tracing Women’s Liberation through Science Fiction", Kara Kennedy. If you need more info, or PDF files, let me know.

[@oneoftheorder]

Now I hope you read 5 and 6 -- Heretics of Dune is tied with Messiah as my personal second-favorite. You might say "the story starts getting weird." Six is the weakest of Frank's entries, but to my mind 5 is almost as good as the first. A lot of people take issue with how Chani is adapted in Villeneuve's version, but I think it's necessary to set her up as a full character whose tragedy will be her own rather than Paul's and have the appropriate emotional impact in the third film. Sinister Jessica is, I think, my favorite take on her across the three adaptations as it brings out the more sinister aspect of what she and the Bene Gesserit have done. (And while we're naming well-adapted characters, I love Life-of-Brian Stilgar too.) Alia has always been my favorite character in Dune -- I hope we get plenty of her in part 3 (or further if another director takes up Children and beyond).

[@haroldstrickland6126]

I like the Dune content, and am still looking forward to more of the vampire content. Regarding Dune and feminism, yeah, it's hard to look at Herbert's characterization of even ostensibly powerful women as empowering or empowered. They mostly exist to serve men, and there are few scenes between women in which they're not just talking about some dude in the story. And obviously you're right; Herbert wasn't writing this story for women. It wasn't published for or marketed to women. I also didn't stick around for the later books beyond Heretics, but the female characterizations seemed to become rather more salacious. Not that I necessarily mind sexy tales of sexy sex in the sexy future, but it was alot of a lot. I think for men, writing women is a dodgy prospect, and it has to be greatly informed by the perspective and experience of actual women. Which requires listening, a tool any author should master, of course...but...we're talking about guys, after all. As you've said in a previous Dune vid, Herbert's wife seemed to give up a lot of her own ambitions to support her husband's endeavor, and I feel like Herbert's prime takeaway about women and the strength of women. Maybe his view changed in later books. As far as my favorite female character in the saga, I'm kinda embarrassed to admit it's Irulan, given how dirty she did Chani. Despite how passive and fruitlessly conniving she is, it's her voice and her perspective through which the story unfolds. Irulan redeems herself to become a genuine ally and protector of the twins, but she's never gonna get beyond what she did to Chani. I think there's a measure of strength she has, existing in the face of the contempt she receives from literally everyone around her after marrying Paul.

[@theo-dr2dz]

One of the things I find most obnoxious about the whole Dune thing is the human breeding. People are not racing horses. Eugenics is pure evil and this is going so much further than that. And the Bene Gesserit are supposed to be kind of the good guys (I have always hated them, but I guess from the writing that the reader is supposed to like them). To me this alone (there is more) is enough to get a bad feeling about this series. Almost the entire worldview behind it is just morally wrong in my eyes. In this entire series there is barely any character that I could find only remotely sympathetic. I am always amazed that all these commentators never spend a word on that.

[@GrmDark]

Here comes the Dune content!!! 😄🖤👍

[@ryangreen6255]

Do Arilyan next! Seriously, she was the most tragic.

[@marshillmike]

And as always, a big Shoutout to the Shadout Mapes.

[@LucasFehr]

Ah Jess! Books 5 and 6 are amazing. I think you’ll like them. 📚 thanks for a great video as always.

[@billtownsend937]

I would love to hear you re approach this after reading Heretics and Chapterhouse! They are so great and nobody seems to have read them. The point of view becomes almost entirely female and certainly the levels of power. I believe his wife helped him more and more with the writing as they went too.

[@pufthemajicdragon]

OK so maybe this is why I loved Heretics and Chapterhouse SO MUCH. These books are dominated by powerful women. (Almost) ALL of the main characters are women. And I will NEVER not ship Dar & Tar. If you only read the first book, you get a very incomplete view of the Bene Gesserit, the view that outsiders have. It's the later books that show you who they really are, and when you really fall in love with them. Also, A+ on the costume for this video. I'm getting amazing powerful Irulan vibes and you nailed it. AAND now I see your entire channel as one of Irulan's many histories and commentaries.

[@pufthemajicdragon]

OK I have to comment on Jessica and Chani "othering". In your description, they're tools and subjugated beneath the men they're with and the traditions they abide by. But alternative perspective - this is a universe dominated by a patriarchal feudal tradition. There's no room within that society for Jessica or Chani to be equals to their husbands *PUBLICLY*. But that's Jessica's point at the end - they can be and are equals *privately*, and when feminism has brought about needed change, that fact will finally be recognized publicly. No single individual can break the chains of patriarchy and sexism. But each generation can break a link in that chain. Jessica and Chani, Leto and Paul, are breaking links in the chain.

[@Derpy101]

The Bene Gesserit are the most interesting and powerful woman's organization I know of in fiction. They control everything from the shadows, mastering their context by recognizing the flaws in an intergalactic feudal government and exploiting them. They also utilize human tendencies of faith and religious belief for their own ends, willing to take the long road to their eventual success. In a way, I always felt that Dune was a pivotal feminist book because, as Frank Herbert said, the most important character in the book is Jessica. Her decision to betray the Bene Gesserit and have a son instead of a daughter derailed the Bene Gesserit's plan on the eve of its completion, and the entire story happens because of that decision. It says a lot that their ultimate plan was to have a Kwisatz Haderach under their control, but Paul came one generation early. The power structure that the Emperor rules is a sham. He, the great houses, and the Landsraad are only game pieces to the Bene Gesserit. The only reason Paul has any power is because the Bene Gesserit manufactured him and his circumstances, and if Jessica had not birthed him when she did, he would have been no more than a figurehead for their ultimate designs. As a side note, I appreciate that Frank Herbert's opening and closing lines of the book were by women, and that each chapter starts with a quote by Irulan. Frank said that one of his many goals in writing Dune was to display the influence women have over history, even if they seem sidelined or forgotten.

[@ToxicBernieBro]

It's crazy because I've heard fans of the book say the exact opposite of what you're saying between book Chani vs movie Chani lmao. and I never understood how they came to that assessment of Chani, but I agree with your takeaway on the character.

[@ninshu6paths659]

Because book chani is better written. The movie makes the bene gesserit look incompetent( the missionaria protectiva is supposed to be subtle but for some reasons everyone knows about it which is dumb) book chani is a fighter and a sayahdina, where Paul is in deep coma after taking the water of life, she awakens him through her knowledge not some weak ass tears and prophecy. She isn’t Paul’s sidekick, she is his councillor.

[@Barad_door]

I LOVE YOUR DUNE VIDEOS!!!

[@zachlewis9751]

The more I learn about dune the more I learn that *everyone* is just a puppet to be tortured for the golden path.

[@rev68]

18:15 You said when she (Jessica) first married Duke Leto. I assume you meant to say when she first met Duke, since they never married.

[@josephfisher426]

I'm not sure how empathetic Herbert was with women, but that may have made his female characters the more interesting. They were less fated and more human. Also the BGs, though ultimately unsuccessful in their plans, were much closer to success than everyone else, who were stumbling around more or less blindly. They could not describe the entire the proverbial elephant, but they got a lot of it. I can't tell from what I have read whether that was intentional or whether Herbert just wrote himself into a corner.

[@toddharkey486]

Please give us your thoughts on Dune: Prophecy. I was fascinated with the first episode, but my KZbin feed is loaded critiques that lack your thoughtfulness and graceful language.

[@0xTJ]

Always so fun to get a Dune video (not that I like the others less, i jist love a mix)!

[@ArchDudeify]

This is an excellent breakdown Analysis spot on 😎 the systems perspective

[@patatequiroule]

Chani might not be Bene Gesserit, but she is fremen. Her whole life is built around the ritualistic ways their society has built in the harsh environment of Dune. And those rituals are not just some legacy of the zensunni and the imperial pogroms, they bear the unmistakable mark of both the Bene Gesserit and their own wild reverent mothers. There are female characters in the two last books who indirectly tackle this issue of generational/institutional self-erasure with a lot more agency, most notably Odrade and Sheeana.

[@mndrew1]

I have to (sorry) shout out the Shadout Mapes. :)

[@Trotskyification]

In literature I tend to judge the complexity of how female characters are written by male authors. Whether there are portrayed in a male-dominated setting or not it is their complexities that I appreciate.

[@chadwickjdillon]

Having not read the Dune series, but being sort of familiar with it... did Herbert get into textiles? I know his concentrations sort of lived in ecology and hierarchy, but if we are going to discuss silent feminist influences on history... I would like to hear Herbert's (and your own!) thoughts on the Bene Jeserit (SP?) and clothwork. You do such good work Jess, thank you for making such great stuff all the time!

[@ryangreen6255]

Wwwwwoooowwww! You completely missed Paul's wife. Did the movie skip her tragedy and you not *actually* read the books? Like she had *ALL* power stripped from her in the coldest, most clinically brutal way. She was princess and royalty in name only. How?! did you skip that?

[@GizkaStew]

Le Guin mentioned 🎉

[@jessmith7324]

I dont entirely agree. In the latter books the legacy of the female characters is still felt and referred to centuries later. Its not the ending that a reader from 2924 wouls appreciate I think because we focus much more on the immediate gratification and acknowledgement. And in many cases rightfully so, Art is in the eye of the beholder. Yet it also shouldnt take away or make how those characters were later percieved as forgetable on our part. Even if its one we dont like. And I do agree that ultimately its the system itself that is the villain

[@wifflemonkey]

Dune is about the futilty of planning. Every story / sub-story, throughout the series, ultimately ends badly. BG plan for a KH, Paul plans to avoid the jihad, the Baron plans for the Harkonnens to be in power forever, House Corrino plans to assassinate the twins, etc. Everyone who tries to plan fails and the biggest planners are the BG, thus they fail the most. The tradegy of women in Dune is that they are almost all planners or get caught up in a planners plan, Chani is killed by BG interference, Alia is doomed (from pre-birth) by BG planning, even Ghanima is forced into playing a role as part of a plan (thou that plan is outside of the 3 books Jess is discussing).

[@rmsgrey]

Leto plans to rule for a thousand years then be assassinated...

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Beautifully said! Blind reliance on plans and systems will always be the downfall

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Never trust in the system, man!

[@jimluebke3869]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire If you need an antidote for all these plans-within-plans, might I suggest Connie Wills' _To Say Nothing of the Dog_ for your next book? It's a wonderful story about the chaos of history, and the varied outcomes of human planning.

[@MarkusJackDijkgraaf]

The feminist ideas come more into their own from books 4 onwards. Nayla was my favourite female character in all the books. She is tough, straightforward and a compelling portrayal of a zealot.

[@fixpontt]

Jess of Arrakis

[@Ellanion]

You're definitely more generous with your interpretation than me. I'd call the depiction sexist, straight up. Sure, the men also suffer, but the women suffer BECAUSE they're women. One of the things I really liked was in the beginning though, because it so well highlighted an issue that plagues women in the real world, it was just turned on its head. When Paul is subjected to the pain ritual thing I can't remember the name of. The reverend mother says that she made him suffer for longer than anyone else. It's double punishment. If he fails, it's just because he's a man. If he doesn't, he has to suffer a trial much harder than normal. The same thing happens to women on the daily, and just showing it like that can be a real wakeup call to people (read: men) who don't really grasp it.

[@silviusaltus8456]

I think it's very reductionist and undermining of the core of feminism to say that in making a choice to be with Paul that she is surrendering her agency. Women who choose to be wives and mothers are no less than other women because of that choice. I absolutely agree that there is a lot of tragedy for the women in Dune (as there is for everyone), and that they are not in enviable positions, but if feminism isn't fighting for a world in which a woman can choose to do what she wants with her life (including, but not limited to, motherhood), then what is it? I also think that you glossed over the overtly murderous and eugenecist nature of the Bene Jesserit pretty hard in order to present them as a stronger model of women's power, but what they do to other people though murder, forced breeding, and dehuminisation is heinous to the extreme even without looking at the way they treat themselves and other members of their order.

[@specialnewb9821]

Its an inherent contradiction present in the real world though. If women have the agency to freely choose some of thise choices will limit that freedom. For example: in a free society, a woman can freely choose to wear hijab. But the act of wearing it also empowers those who would remove that choice and make it mandatory. That doesn't devalue the value of the choice or make it individually wrong. But it also makes it harder to keep it a choice

[@caleschley]

Totally agree with your take on Channi. Herbert set her up to be awesome, but had her submit in the end. Was disappointing.

[@aletheuo475]

To be fair, though, Dune is meant to be disappointing, in a way. I mean, Paul was 'supposed' to be the hero of an adventure story and a freedom fighter, but Herbert doesn't go in for happy endings.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

It's so weird to me that so many people online take issue with film Channi because she has far more personality and agency! Book Channi is interesting to talk and think about, but not necessarily to read.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

She's a tough character, but I'm very hopeful about where they take her in the third movie!

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Same here! Messiah had the unfortunate line "she will be drawn to [Duncan's] maleness", so anything would be an improvement adaptation wise.

[@tomhoornstra1954]

A "system" is what happens when you subordinate both body and heart to the mind, the left-brained operational mind or what many call the ego-mind. Its logic creates a closed system, which becomes a kind of perpetually self-fulfilling prophecy. Or "fate", but it's a self-created fate. Not ordained by any God or Higher Power, though it usually ends up claiming, or co-opting, the authority of same. As well-explained by philosopher-psychiatrist-neuroscientist Ian McGilchrist in his masterwork, "The Master and His Emissary". I wish that Frank Herbert had, but it wasn't out back in the 60's when he was writing. I hope that enough people read it, or understand its message, to avert a "Dune"-like future for mankind, be it in the form of AI or fanatical-dogmatic religion. As for movie versions, I still love David Lynch's. For all its flaws and weirdness, it gave more of a humanity to the characters. Not a humanity doomed to perpetual misery, but one where, I felt, love, heart, and vision were still present, and humans had some degree of agency. If they were only bold and imaginative enough to exercise it, to take "fate" into their own hands. It seemed like that version of Paul might have been able to do that. To try, at least. Perhaps it was a bit overoptimistic in light of the book and Herbert's overall philosophy. But that's one of the things adaptation can do, in the right hands. Though Lynch lost artistic control over the project, and laments over what could have been. Plus, Sean Young will always be Chani to me. A real beauty! And her love came across as fully heartfelt.

[@ChadZaugg]

From my perspective I think that one has to be emotionally detached to be a good leader. And it’s not just a man thing. Lady Jesica’s own mother is cold and distant to her. It seems that nearly all the main characters in DUNE prioritize their cult groups and/or beliefs over their personal relationships, and even over themselves. I’d assume that how much we currently value our selves and our personal relationships is an historical anomaly. My bad take: I generally tend to think of men as the more sociopathic of the sexes. Because they had to be a little bit cult like,violent, and detached to survive in the Paleolithic world. And I tend to think of women (here’s where all the hate will come) as the more narcissistic of the sexes (ducking stones). When a man is narcissistic it’s a big fat obnoxious problem for society. Because evolutionarily that’s not his function. It’s counter productive. But it’s super healthy and genetically beneficial for a woman to prioritize her own family over -everything- else. So as long as a woman’s narcissistic bubble includes her family it’s great for society as a whole. And even when it’s just focused in on herself it’s not as much of a problem as the male version. So yeah I think that it’s perfectly natural -inside of the DUNE universe- that Lady Jesica, Chani, & Princess Irulan recognize that they’re not the main character. It’d help our current world if far fewer people thought of themselves as the main character. Outside of the emperor, and the Harkonnens in general, no one (including Paul) sees themselves as the main character. Until Leto II literally makes himself the main character. In stories as in real life, thinking that you’re the main character tends to put you on the path of becoming the villain. And inside the DUNE story, recognizing that you should surrender to a genetically engineered, Duke Mentat, Bene Gesserit übermensch would only be wisdom

[@EricMcLuen]

Do any of the characters really have any agency from the manipulations of the BG and the prescience of Paul, Leto II? I am a little torn on the portrayal of Jesica in the movies. She is way to emotional. Perhaps they wanted to make her more human. And then it is she who is the manipulator. Am also torn on movie Chani, both from the changes to the chatacter and the casting. But I do like the change made to Alia's origin for the movie and am very curious for where it goes.

[@gabrielblanchard3921]

It really starts to hurt hearing "Paul loved her, _of course_ ..." I haven't even _read_ these books and it's just awful -- makes me want to cry.

[@atticusleeds3957]

There are many series these days that focus on the struggles of the elites. Game of Thrones and Dune are two big ones. People tend to find these stories more 'relatable' and 'realistic' because of the sex, violence, politics, manipulations, and general bad behavior. But honestly, as a nobody with very little power, but also very little temptation to real evil, I have trouble relating. I relate more to the Hobbits from LoTR. A little person in a very big world just trying to do his best. We sacrifice plenty, but at least it's generally not for the sake of some dumb political scheme.

[@jimstock2054]

Fish speakers. The all women army. The reasoning to have the all women army has stuck in my head for decades.

[@curtiswfranks]

As usual, I favor and am most interested in the women of the series. At least I am consistent.

[@brennansmith6474]

Did the god emperor save humanity dy making everyone the same with no freedom to move up in the galaxy

[@jaradcolefield]

I may get burned at the stake for this, but i feel his son gives the women of the dune universe a lil more of their due. mostly in the continuation books not the prequels.

[@tonycosta3302]

How do you have spoilers on books written 50 years ago. It’s like saying don’t tell anyone that Vader is Luke’s father.

[@BubblewrapHighway]

Frank Herbert ❤ I had no idea Dune was influenced heavily by psychedelics use.

[@josephfisher426]

Even though I've only read the first book and therefore only witnessed the psychedelia secondhand, I think this deserves an analysis from Wayne and Garth.

[@BubblewrapHighway]

@josephfisher426 According to Paul Stamets' book, Mycelium Running: "Frank Herbert told me his technique for using spores. When I met him in the early 1980s, Frank enjoyed collecting mushrooms on his property near Port Townsend, Washington. Frank went on to tell me that much of the premise of Dune - the magic spice (spores) that allowed the bending of space (tripping), the giant worms (maggots digesting mushrooms), the eyes of the Freman (the cerulean blue of Psilocybe mushrooms), the mysticism of the female spiritual warriors, the Bene Gesserits (influenced by tales of Maria Sabina and the sacred mushroom cults of Mexico) - came from his perception of the fungal life cycle, and his imagination was stimulated through his experiences with the use of magic mushrooms. An avid mushroom collector, he felt that throwing his less-than-perfect wild chanterelles into the garbage or compost didn’t make sense. Instead, he would put a few weathered chanterelles in a 5-gallon bucket of water, add some salt, and then, after 1 or 2 clavs(?), pour this spore-mass slurry on the ground at the base of newly planted firs. When he told me chanterelles were growing from trees not even 10 years old, I couldn’t believe it. No one had previously reported chanterelles arising near such young trees, nor had anyone reported them growing as a result of using this method. Of course, it did work for Frank, who was simply following nature’s lead. Frank’s discovery has now been confirmed in the mushroom industry. It is now known that it’s possible to grow many mushrooms using spore slurries from elder mushrooms. Many variables come into play, but in a sense this method is just a variation of what happens when it rains. Water dilutes spores from mushrooms and carries them to new environments. Our responsibility is to make that path easier. Such is the way of nature."

[@thomriley1036]

Excellent video. If you had to choose one society from the 6 Frank Herbert 'Dune' books, but you had to live in it as a woman, which one would you choose? (Tip: Don't pick the Tleilaxu.)

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

You truly couldn't pay me enough to enter the duniverse. But if forced to pick, I want to be some random person on some random backwater planet that doesn't have anything important to do at all lol. Only way to keep myself out of the drama.

[@thomriley1036]

@Jess_of_the_Shire My wife and I both settled on Caladan, but being an average citizen of The Spacing Guild probably wouldn't be so bad, minus the whole mutated fish-person Navigator bit.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Given the series' emphasis on the ruling class, I would definitely be interested in explorations of pretty much everyone else. What does the average person look like in this universe?