The Tragic Women of Dune

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Check out Warhammer 40,000: Tacticus! play.tacticusgame.com/JessoftheShireNov

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

It's cool how much recognition you've got in recent months.

[@flyingfoamtv2169]

Clearly they didnt read the room when it comes to your viewership when offering you that sponsorship. Im sure its a good deal for you, but im surprised they thought it would be worthwhile.

[@spencerarnold669]

@flyingfoamtv2169 what a weird thing to comment. Warhammer 40k is basically a mixture of lotr and dune, so a huge cross over for fans,. One of the top comments on this episode is the one asking for a 40k lore reaction. Even if that wasn't the case why would you share this on a creators page? If you're SO concerned that the tacticus marketing team is apparently wasting their budget (in your solitary opinion), contact them...... I mean don't because that would be weird too.

[@juliahenriques210]

@@spencerarnold669 Nah. There's a slight irony there, for sure. Still better than no sponsorship, of course, so I won't complain. That said... I'd love to hear her take on how "femininity" is expressed in 40k in maybe 3 major forms: the Sisters (I'll kill for my idealised man), Slaanesh (the universe will understand the truest possible meaning of SM), and... tyranid motherships (???)(my children will devour you all).

[@spencerarnold669]

​@@juliahenriques210 I mean, you missed out the silent of sisters who have there voice literally taken away and they don't have souals haha. But talking of irony it would be interesting to take your subject but also discuss when satire is taken seriously. Warhammer 40k was made by a load of British lefties lashing out at Thatcherism in the 80's. They created a world where everything is terrible to poke fun at the establishment and the future they feared. I point out the Britishness of it because the cultural history of satire is far darker and far more subtle than say American satire which tends to let the audience in on the joke. For instance, Black Mirror was listed as a dark comedy in England, when I was in the states its seen as a gritty dystopian drama. But its creator Charlie Brooker is trying to make the audience laugh with how awful things are in it. If you play as the "good guys" you are literally playing as a zealous, xenophobic, authoritative state, committing war crimes in the name of a false god after 10,000 years of stagnation. They don't know they're the bad guys and that's the point. The issue is does everyone reading know that? Or do they see that as promoting these ideals because you're encouraged to explore this world from their perspective? My point is when does satire become the thing its satirising. If you're making comments on how women have been treated or perceived through history and take that to the extreme and trust that the audience know its wrong. Unfortunately, there are always going to be some who miss the point and see it as enforcing stereotypes. As creators should you have to confront that and destroy the truth of the world you built to let the audience know whats wrong or right? If a misogynist read excerpts of The Handmaid's Tale out of context without knowing the feminist message. They'd probably see it as a utopia. Haha anyway my original comment wasn't so much to defend 40k, more as to why someone would comment on someone's sponsor

[@PinkGrapefruit22]

You honestly stated so many of my thoughts over the years about Dune's female characters very clearly. They have so many cool powers and abilities, but at the end of the day, they are distressingly disempowered. As you, I was really glad that Denis Villeneuve's movie fleshed out Chain so much more and gave her an actual voice and personality. It always really frustrated me the way she is supposed to be the great love of Paul's life and yet remains barely a sketch of a character. When I read the Dune series as a kid, my favorite was always Alia, but as an adult, I've grown to like Jessica more and more. She makes this one decision that just cascades into more and more consequences for everyone, and it's so fascinating watching her deal with that throughout the series. I do also find it fascinating to think about the fact that Paul was supposed to be a girl. I think that's actually a bigger driving factor behind who he is and who he becomes than is explicitly stated in the story. At one point in the first novel he refers to himself as a "seed," a potentiality. To me, that reflects the fact that one of his potentialities was as the mother of the Kwisatz Haderach, a potential that is more or less realized when he becomes the father of Leto II. As Jessica's son, rather than her daughter, he was supposed to avoid the fate of merely becoming the vessel through which a messiah was born, and yet!

[@LKMNOP]

I totally despise the movies. And I think it's better to build out the character in your own mind if the author doesn't do it. I don't like to be fed it from a third party. That insults both the author and the watcher.

[@PinkGrapefruit22]

@ The fun thing is that when I read “Dune” and when you read “Dune,” we didn’t read the same book. When Denis Villeneuve read “Dune,” he didn’t read the same book as either of us. When I first read “Dune” at the age of twelve, I didn’t read the same book I read when I reread it at 20 or at 30. Every reading of a text creates it anew because readers are not blank slates but instead actively create the meaning of the text when they interpret it through the lens of their individual experience. You can argue about whether or not someone’s interpretation has a textual basis, but to say you don’t want to experience someone else’s interpretation of the characters is tantamount to saying you simply don’t want to discuss the book. That’s fine, but it’s not how I personally enjoy experiencing the things I read. Other perspectives open my eyes to things I could never have noticed from my own limited point of view.

[@winterinbloom]

​@@LKMNOP I think it's a bit much to say that experiencing someone elses vision of a character is an insult to the author and the watcher. We should never adapt books into movies then. Or perhaps we should look at it as any interpretation of a character that is not the author's is an insult to the author.

[@AdumbroDeus]

​@@LKMNOPit is genuinely impossible to be fully faithful to a book with a movie, just like its impossible for a flat map to be a perfect representation ot the world because it is a globe. Compromises always have to he made because the mediums are different. The question of what compromises ultimately depends on what you value in the story. Paul doesn't have internal monologues in the movies, they just don't work well on screen. So when an important element like Paul's discomfort with how the Fremen are changing from his friends to his zealots, central to Herbert's themes of the damage done by charismatic leaders, is conveyed in monologues, how do you get that theme across? The movie's solution was to make Chani his condemner, with her closeness to him being central to why it works. It was a good choice, because every other on screen adaptation failed to get that theme across and being faithful to the themes is ultimately the most important thing unless you're responding to them.

[@AdumbroDeus]

I agree, and to add to that its also ultimately a change made out of faithfulness to the original story. She speaks to themes that in the books were internal monologues, themes that the other adaptations failed to convey in part because they were convyed in a way that jumps poorly to the screen. I think without her the audience would come away thinking Paul was a hero, the opposite of what the story is trying to say.

[@archer1949]

Tragedy aside, “St Alia of the Knife” is a cool moniker to have.

[@chaoticbreadsticks8002]

One thing I’ve been thinking about is when I suggested my friends to read Dune. She declined because “there aren’t enough women in the story,” which at a surface level is true, and two things can be true at once, but really Dune is a story built on generations of women’s power and decisions.

[@weignerleigner3037]

Does she not read human history either lol? That’s a weird take to have “I don’t read anything that doesn’t have females”.

[@chaoticbreadsticks8002]

@ I know… she doesn’t really read tbh so I don’t know why my other friend and I bothered LMAOOO

[@weignerleigner3037]

@@chaoticbreadsticks8002 yeah it’s tough when your friends or family turn that way. I wish more people realized that men and women aren’t suppose to hate each other lol

[@sainttheresetaylor2054]

@@weignerleigner3037 when was the last time you read a book with a female main character? her not wanting to read books that she thinks center men (in a male dominated world) doesn’t mean she ‘hates men’. and women and men don’t hate eachother. men have systematically oppressed women across the globe for centuries and we are reacting to it.

[@sainttheresetaylor2054]

just because the story is conceptually built on that doesn’t mean there are well rounded female protagonists for her to relate to. you’re smart enough to understand that

[@allisongliot]

I think the changes they made to Chani’s storyline in the movie actually fit very well with who she is originally introduced to be. Especially since the time is condensed in the medium of film so that we’re seeing her arc play out over the course of a couple hours vs a whole book, it would seem very jarring for her to go from being a fierce Fremen warrior to quiet housewife in so little time and have that make narrative sense.

[@GeraltofRizziaa]

Not sure if anyone’s told you this, but you have a voice that’s made for audiobooks.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thank you so much!

[@HellBoy-id6ss]

She does annunciate extremely well....... and she's cute AF..

[@spencerarnold669]

where as I have a face made for audiobooks

[@MarkusJackDijkgraaf]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire read all of Frank Herberts Dune Books. I'd pay premium for that (for my standards).

[@WilliamHostman]

I was thinking the same last vid, @GeraltofRizziaa...

[@johnwinebrenner1231]

I agree with you. There also the perspective that for the Bene Gesserit the male is only to be milked for his DNA then can be cast aside, as was Duke Leto for all intent and purposes. Remember the line in the second movie, "The bloodline is secured".

[@timhenley3602]

And the line in the book..”For the father, nothing.”

[@spencerarnold669]

@johnwinebrenner1231 I don't understand why you're saying that as if it were a bad thing haha

[@claireindigo1200]

@@spencerarnold669real

[@bigtechisbigbrother8690]

@@spencerarnold669 = Soi-boi

[@LKMNOP]

Please, read the books. Quoting from the movie is not as true as quoting from the book from whence the movie got its ideas.

[@lucidity1]

One of my favorite Irulan moments comes from the Sify mini-series. She is the only one to have figured out the Muad'Dib is Paul Atreides. She's talking to Feyd-Rautha and asks him "Have you heard of the legend of the phoenix?" "no." "remind me to tell you about it later." (I'm paraphrasing, but Irulan is brutal)

[@trol68419]

Yeah the last 2 of Frank Herbert's books treat the women far more differently. The Bene Gesserit really step up and become humanity's last line of defense against a formidable foe, who are also predominantly women with terrifying power. Those books are also really weird, with some surprising sexual content. I wish Frank could've lived long enough to have written the 7th novel.

[@DeLaVegaDinosaur69]

I really loved Odrade. My favorite character in the series.

[@hurgcat]

@@DeLaVegaDinosaur69 The Teg, Tar, Dar, and Duncan 9000 group are such a fun group of characters

[@demongrenade2748]

Jess being sponsored by a warhammer 40k game was not on my bingo card. Speaking of 40k, i'd definitely like to see your take on some of the books, or maybe even see you discuss dune's influence on the 40k universe. I think that'd be pretty cool.

[@Turskaruhtinas]

Not 40K, but I used to love Gotrek & Felix -stuff as a young adult.

[@toddkes5890]

The Commissar Cain series might be fun. They are a more humorous introduction to WH40k

[@craigstege6376]

... Dune being set in the 40K universe confirmed!!! J/k. It always was a cool fan theory though.

[@PatrickOMulligan]

@@Turskaruhtinas Just started reading the series this year. It has lived up to its reputation.

[@agabrielrose]

Good analysis, but I'd offer a counter-interpretation of Ghanima's role and her agency in her role; it's my understanding that she not only knew everything that was to come, but she helped plan and execute the plan to follow the Golden Path. I don't think Leto was taking the preferable role, either. Ghanima was able to marry and live the life of an empress, essentially. I believe she endorsed and even co-created the plan.

[@thomasjoychild4962]

She and Farad'n ended up having a long and very happy life together too, IIRC, as an empress and her nerdy concubine.

[@Marchochias]

Great video, but I think you might have misunderstood something slightly, it’s a Fremen tradition where matriarchs drink the water of life, not a bene gesserit one. Bene gesserit don’t all do that, which is why Jessica hadn’t done it and was nervous about doing it when Stilgar demanded that she do it.

[@patatequiroule]

Both Bene Gesserit reverend mothers and Fremen "wild" reverend mothers are created by absorbing and transmuting spice essence (water of life), but how much of this reality is known to Jessica in either case is a bit ambiguous. I've always assumed Jessica's choice was one of both survival and political play to secure a place for her and Paul within Fremen society.

[@fabrisseterbrugghe8567]

It's stated that there are multiple poisons which can induce the death trance unlocking the genetic memory, but once a reverend mother uses spice for the trance, nothing else will work.

[@Ennahdee]

Love that Frank Herbert based the Bene Gesserit on his overbearing Catholic aunts

[@Loki-g3k]

And the concern about thinking machines and how humans literally started a war to destroy them. It's a fascinating concept because it could be a possibility in the future.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

It makes sense lol

[@Yandarval]

Eight (Irish) Catholic aunts, tried to force Catholicism on Herbert, which failed, if I remember correctly.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

Hear me out...Sister Act, but with the Bene Gesserit!

[@AMikeStein]

@@sebastianevangelista4921……That seems a little dangerous.

[@epicsakura101]

Dune is a *fascinating* story with an even more fascinating universe. I never went past book 1, but I love the universe and I appreciate people who make content like this.

[@holdintheaces7468]

The rest of the series is very different. Probably worth finishing the books Frank wrote, but the second book is quite jarring.

[@ashleyhamilton5064]

Part of Herbert writing Dune Messiah was people talking about how heroic Paul was. He's not a hero. He's a slave of his own prescience and his actions cause a great deal of harm and damage to the Fremen and the rest of the Imperium. Dune Messiah was there to point that out. Paul is our protagonist but he isn't our hero.

[@pufthemajicdragon]

I really hope you do read the rest of the series (Frank's, don't touch Brian's with a 10 foot pole). Paul's story is a tragedy, and I think it's important to recognize that. But also, he's not the main character of the series. Also, Heretics and Chapterhouse are dominated by powerful woman main characters and I absolutely adore them.

[@TheSnakeh]

I think I remember reading an afterword by Brian mentioning that Frank became aware of this (especially because of his wife) and this is why in his last two books most of the characters are women. And aside from the story, it's really cool to see this as well. Also, it's incredibly amusing that Leto II basically said at one point that it took him thousands of years to dismantle misoginy and male violence. And the fact that he was explaining this to Duncan, of all people, was just chef's kiss

[@aletheuo475]

The ground here in England is covered in snow at the moment. Its kinda weird, but delightful to think of hot, desert planets.

[@54032Zepol]

Also rules by space Muslims, looks like y'all have something in common after All

[@christopherwhittaker2620]

Yep, it’s snowing here in Manchester and it’s absolutely freezing…so yeah I couldn’t agree more

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I always end up thinking about Dune in the winter. I think Dune in the summer would feel redundant

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Fascinating 🤔! What books and films do you think about during the summer?

[@jimluebke3869]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Some summers in central California were only bearable thinking about Jack London's "To Build a Fire".

[@agatatryhubczak9469]

I personally really like the story of princess Irulan because throughout the 2nd and 3rd book she turns from a proud and self - serving person into an empathetic and selfless caretaker of Leto and Ghanima, children of a man who did't even love her. She treated them as if they were her own and it makes me feel all soft and mushy inside 🥺

[@pufthemajicdragon]

Irulan's character is always under-represented. Most of what you know of her you see in her writings, the intros to every chapter, but it's precisely because of that that she is one of the most important and meaningful characters in the novels. And her growth in Messiah and Children cannot be overstated. I feel for Frank and David's remorse when Universal left Irulan's narration out of the Alan Smithee cut of 1984's DUNE film. You know, if someone wanted to expand the Dune universe in a new and meaningful way, I'd love to see the story from Irulan's perspective. (Just not written by Brian, please god no)

[@SebastianHackeado]

Exactly, she is a complex and layered character, used, forced to marry just for political reasons and basically becoming a hostage, she ends up really loving Paul, even tho, she knows, she will never be corresponded. But most people cannot see it, they are resentful and don't even understand the remorse and repent she goes thru, about all she did. And the way she "repaid" Chani, raising her children as her own is the proof that everyone can see, but even after that, most people hate her. It shows how hateful and lack of forgiveness most people are/have. Edit: I remember trying to explain to my ex why Irulan was a good person, she hated her. She cannot grasp the concept that it wasn't about the things she did, but about how she feel about it, and how she try to "fix" what she can after feeling remorse. That is what defines a good person from a bad one, is not mistakes or bad actions, is the conscience about those things and how we try to reverse some of the damage done.

[@thomasjoychild4962]

@@SebastianHackeado I love stories about people who have that kind of realisation. Even if, like Irulan, they can't undo the damage they've caused, they can try to do right in the next things they face.

[@wynterfel]

@@pufthemajicdragon Irulan has always been my favorite character. I agree, would love to have a whole book from Irulan's perspective.

[@crinklescat1871]

@@wynterfelsame. Anytime on Reddit that I say Irulan is my favorite character I get bombed with hate. But she is my ride or die. She had a miserable life but did have a moral compass so the BG won’t truly let her finish training. They bring up what she did to Chani when she was commanded to make her miscarry or even kill her and she said no. Leto II left her histories alone when he was burning the histories/killing historians and Paul’s kids treated her, not poorly, but yikes at the things they would say. She broke free of the way she was raised to be and got nothing. But Irulan is fascinating.

[@NomadicElfling]

… my autistic brain immediately went “INFO DUMP ON ME ALL YOU WANT, IDC” when you said you were worried about info dumping 😅😅

[@zanderC5953]

After this discussion, I can understand why the Villenueve Dune films changed Chani's role , motivations, and actions to address this problem. I hope they do a satisfactory job with it.

[@Peecamarke]

I like how you have a video devoted to giving the female characters some shine. Would love to see this for other stories

[@colindunnigan8621]

Alia's death at the end of the Children of Dune miniseries is one of the tragic and moving scenes in science fiction TV. "I miss my brother..."

[@st.anselmsfire3547]

You have to do a sequel talking about Siona and the fish speakers from God Emperor of Dune.

[@andyl7303]

Your Dune videos are my favorite Dune videos, Jess. Please keep them coming! Dune Prophesy let’s go!! Also looking forward to your reflections on Heretics and Chapterhouse!

[@toddharkey486]

Absolutely! The analysis of Dune: Prophecy on KZbin so far is pretty shallow and (like much of KZbin film/TV criticism) toxic. I am eager to hear Jess give a much more thoughtful take.

[@RABartlett]

The recent movie "Small Things Like These", about the Magdalene Laundries, is a very sobering look about women perpetuating the oppression of women--basically the "paying it foward" you talk about, either drunk off the measure of power they're able to secure, or simply because thinking about the wider implications is too painful. If I remember correctly, Jessica was ordered to conceive a girl as a prospective match for Feyd--while a lot of the women in the story got the short end of the stick, I can't help but think they were all probably better off than this hypothetical daughter, if only just.

[@rikhuravidansker]

Technically, Alia is the daughter.

[@edhenry5906]

The Bene Gesserit have chosen to pull the strings from the shadows. Other memories have shown them that once you assume the throne you paint a target on your back. If you want to have sustained influence over the course of 1600 years in order to fulfill your kwisatz haderach programme for example, this is how you need to do it. It's also why they so despise the honoured matres.

[@StrayBardArt-offical]

23:42 I feel as though this isn't spoken enough in literature and real life; yes a person may love someone and be sorry they are gone but that doesn't erase the shitty things a person did to that someone.

[@jjkthebest]

I'm not sure whether Leto II or Ghanima's fate is more tragic, but the most tragic character in Dune, to me, is definitely Alia.

the female characters i love most will appear in "Heretics of Dune" and "Chapterhouse Dune". Darwi Odrade, Taraza, Bellonda and Sheeana.

[@moof2614]

First of all, love the Dune coverage! Another great video. Have you thought of covering the later Dune novels? I feel like Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune are fascinating books that don't get nearly enough love and appreciation.

[@AtheistJr]

This was one of the best videos about Dune that I've ever watched!

[@alexandramoore8200]

Really love your deep dives on the dune series - your insights add so much to my understanding of the books. Also i love your hair chain thing!

[@leepatterson5710]

Not completely through the video, but I was under the impression the idea society of the "Empire" or even Houses being a patriarchy and controlling the known worlds was always a joke of an idea. The real power of civilization were the women of the Bene Gesserit. While outwardly male dominated in certain circumstances, the women held the power to manipulate and control not just leaders, but the events over thousands of years. Ironically, it was their move to have a Bene Gesserit male under their control that ultimately lead to their downfall. Jessica was supposed a daughter instead of Paul and that daughter would marry a Harkonenn that would in turn gift birth to the HK raised by the BG (which I've never understood as Jessica was already a daughter of the Harkonnens). They wanted the control and power for themselves, but failed to recognize they already had it. They wanted absolute control instead of the balance of most of the control. Leto shows why no one should have absolute control (even though he did it because of the golden path). Anyways, it was always seemed to be written that the male leaders of the Empire were either weak or fickle in their governance while it was the women (such as the BG) who kept them in check and ensured the progress of humanity as a whole. So back to the point I made earlier when their machinations moved from the goal of benefiting humanity to benefiting their power structure that is when they became doomed. I think this is echoed by Paul as the HK who sees through the eyes of all those before and after him and rejects them. He doesn't just do it because he is angry about what happened to his father, but because he could see how that system had been corrupted. His pain was he wasn't willing to go to the lengths needed to fully destroy the systems that chained humanity to zero progress for 10k years addicted to a way of life that would never grow beyond its state of stagnation. Mainly because he wasn't able to cause the suffering needed to humanity and himself. And that burden became Leto's who by the end really didn't have a gender.

[@GilTheDragon]

I think Jessica's perspective regarding Alia's disjunction & death points to something i have suspected; the gene-memories are a lot less real, rather at least somewhat socially constructed. The BG notion of Abomination becoming something of a mindvirus or self fulfilling prophecy by providing a self-destructive concept around which the person afflicted organizes their sense of self. Like so much of Dune is about being suspicious & skeptical about the narratives we encounter & build. & yet even if Jessica feels/knows that the concept is a false & toxic one... doesnt she further fail Alia by not showing compassion & understanding to her daughter who has been poisoned by the society around her?

[@Jamhael1]

Nah, not really: an Abomination exists because of the "lack" of a strong self to keep the other personalities at bay. Case in point: Leto II practically COMPLAIN that he is bored to almost madness because even after thousands of years, he see that Humans are still the "same" - having sex, having children, going to war, etc - through his analisis of his own genetic memories.

[@GilTheDragon]

@that is indeed the perapective presented by the BG. but i am suggesting "what happens if we dont take them at their word". see the books dont convince me that the "genetic memories" are in fact anything but figments of the thinker. like Leto 2 is an aristocrat that doesnt really interact with common people and treats his ideas of humanity and history as true because they match up to his perspective (tbh all the mains do this paul, and his parents, and the baron etc). they treat history as a logic problem centered around Great Men (in a very Foundation-ish way)

[@Jamhael1]

@@GilTheDragon then explain how Ghanima and Leto II have a talk as Paul and Chani, which they never met or knew?

[@toddharkey486]

I am consistently amazed by the quality of your writing in these videos. Your thoughts and perspective are always beautifully expressed.

[@lyndsiedavis4490]

hello!!! i just wanted to say you’re one of my favorite youtubers and have been for well over a year at this point. your videos have had such a big impact on my life. i just wanted you to know that you are very loved, and the art you make matters very much (and yes, i consider this art rather than content-the way you ‘wax poetic’ as you like to say). frank herbert may have thought humanity was miserable most of the time, but with your vids on in the background reminding me all the good things about books i hoped life would always be, it’s at least very tolerable :) i hope you had a very good day today.

[@josiahedwin5276]

I read the Dune books and enjoyed them for the story and plotlines. It is so amazing to have creators like you blowing my socks off by bringing to light themes and ideas which I never even considered! Your work is stunning, and I can't wait till your next upload.

[@justwonder1404]

You're so good at articulating what's been bothering me about this topic. I just yesterday was thinking about how Herbert was seemingly scared of his own powerful female protagonists and they mostly ended up either morally corrupt, insane or dead (or all three, you-know-who deserved better). If they weren't basically slaves, they were closer to tokens. I stopped after three books and ended up feeling like he created this incredibly interesting concept of Bene Gesserit only to not know what to do with them.

[@kim_0286]

I don't know about Ghanima. Maybe I'm misremembering things, maybe something was lost in translation, but she didn't want the fate her brother ultimately took, did she? I didn't read God emperor, but I saw fans saying that she lived a happy life with Farad'n. You see, the chosen one being a woman may be an empowering thing for women in general, but for a singular person? Hell no, give me my simple boring life which will be easily forgotten, I'd choose happiness over greatness any time. So I do not think that in the priest-lamb analogy, Ghanima is the lamb, Leto is. The chosen ones in Dune are many things, but they are not happy

[@GiacomodellaSvezia]

Maybe Herbert's essential message was that we have no free will, or I'm just projecting. Either we are guilty, or victims of circumstance. In other words, we cannot escape an ugly choice: Take pride and responsibility, or take humiliation?

[@pufthemajicdragon]

OK so maybe this is why I loved Heretics and Chapterhouse SO MUCH. These books are dominated by powerful women. (Almost) ALL of the main characters are women. And I will NEVER not ship Dar & Tar. If you only read the first book, you get a very incomplete view of the Bene Gesserit, the view that outsiders have. It's the later books that show you who they really are, and when you really fall in love with them. Also, A+ on the costume for this video. I'm getting amazing powerful Irulan vibes and you nailed it. AAND now I see your entire channel as one of Irulan's many histories and commentaries.

[@pufthemajicdragon]

OK I have to comment on Jessica and Chani "othering". In your description, they're tools and subjugated beneath the men they're with and the traditions they abide by. But alternative perspective - this is a universe dominated by a patriarchal feudal tradition. There's no room within that society for Jessica or Chani to be equals to their husbands *PUBLICLY*. But that's Jessica's point at the end - they can be and are equals *privately*, and when feminism has brought about needed change, that fact will finally be recognized publicly. No single individual can break the chains of patriarchy and sexism. But each generation can break a link in that chain. Jessica and Chani, Leto and Paul, are breaking links in the chain.

[@04nbod]

The tragedy of Ghanima and Leto is all Paul's fault. They do what he should have done. Carried on the bloodline with House Corrino and go on the Golden Path. But he was too weak so his children had to do it. Paul is the epicentre of everyone's misery. Irulan is my favourite. She is the one that picks up the pieces and raises those kids. She teaches them sacrifice, what it means to be Royal. Something Paul could never understand

[@chassoto]

Awesome you are taking on Dune. I have been a fan of the books since I picked up the first one around 1985. You might reconsider your assessment of Chani's place in Paul's life, and the ultimate fate of the universe (down through all the books later). Villaneuve didn't really get Chani right (but I'm not mad, just disappointed). She played a far bigger role in the POLITICS around which Paul and his progeny became the fulcrum of human activity for millennia. And this wasn't accidental. She was an equal with Jessica in this regard, which Jessica eventually comes to understand.

[@Stamboul]

"Chani is not Bene Gesserit but she still folds into her designated role without any kind of protesting" True, she's not BG, but she is a Fremen. Her culture instilled into her the notion that her fate is to be a means to an end, that she would eventually have to sacrifice her individuality for some collective greater good. Paul consciously hijacks that cultural trope; her submission to Paul parallels that of almost all Fremen society. I'm of 2 minds regarding the change in Chani's personality between the book and the films, and that's putting aside the complications it introduces for the next sequel (which is admittedly a lot to put aside). On the one hand, film Chani is a much more interesting character than book Chani, and the scenes in the 2nd film that feature her tell a better story because of it. Rereading the book in my 30s, I actually found myself wishing that Paul had shacked up with Harah instead - that's certainly not a thought I ever had while reading it in my teens. On the other hand, film Chani feels more like a modern-day Western woman than a Fremen. She lacks the inhuman pragmatism that her culture demands even in affairs of the heart. The 2nd film tries to justify this by dividing the Fremen into the "fundamentalist" Southerners and the (implicitly more liberal) Northerners. It doesn't really work, because cultural divisions among the Fremen are only superficially addressed, but it's certainly better than nothing.

[@AW-uv3cb]

Re-reading the book in my late 30's last year, I found myself infuriated at how Chani was introduced as this very active and full of agency, badass character, only to be quickly relegated to a meek, teary-eyed, "yes, Paul, whatever you wish, Paul" stereotype of a submissive partner who is always left behind in the sietch, as soon as they actually get together. She has no character beyond what the plot needs her to be. Movie Chani is much more consistent as a person, her values and views remain unchanged, and that makes not only her, but her conflicted relation to Paul, much more believable, relatable, realistic and heartbreaking.

[@winterinbloom]

I think movie Chani just feels more like an actual person than some door mat out of a male fantasy. Sad that being anything like a real human being would be reguarded as "modern" and "western".

[@Stamboul]

@winterinbloom This might be news to you, but plenty of women do live their lives that way. Though that's not even the point. What sets modern Western societies, and especially modern American society, apart from most societies that are known to have existed, is the unusual degree of individualism. On the sliding scale of collectivism vs individualism, the Fremen in the book are clearly situated at the opposite end. "Real human beings" live in a variety of ways, as it happens. Maybe pause the grandstanding and engage in a bit of self-reflection. The life you live, and especially the life you pretend to live when enjoying online anonymity, are not some universal standard that all of humanity can relate to. People that you'd dismiss as a "door mat" out of fiction do in fact exist, and are as real as you.

[@winterinbloom]

@Stamboul Wonderful, door mats are real, but that doesn't mean being a door mat is a good thing for anyone. No amount of self reflection could get me to see such a bad thing as good. I know men want women to believe it's natural and good to sacrifice everything for a man for his benefit no matter what harm and betrayal he throws your way and how little he gives you in return, all while not being allowed to express the perfectly normal emotions humans feel over such things, but come on. There is no reason to romanticize something so dumb and toxic.🙄

[@Stamboul]

@winterinbloom Please point out to me where I described this as good, romantic, desirable, or specific to women.

[@Valdagast]

The mind-good-body-bad goes back at least to Plato.

[@vernamckinnon129]

One thing that always miffed me, having read the book more than once, is the end exchange between Jessica and Chani at the end-Jessica tells her not to be worried (am paraphrasing) about Princess Irulan marrying Paul-history will call us wives. My beef (and the fact that a man wrote this thinking it was good point) is that these women were powerful priestesses and warrior with knowledge and respect. Dune is a male dominated tale, and its purpose was to show the dangers of following messiahs. Paul is not a hero. His followers turn him unwilling victim.

[@ferrous3869]

I hope this and other non-LotR videos do well for you. Always really like hearing your analysis of other IPs as well.

[@hughfisher9820]

Thanks for a thoughtful woman's view of Dune and the female characters. And I do hope you'll find time to read Heretics/Chapter House of Dune. Frank Herbert does his normal "everything you learned in the previous books is wrong" thing but they really do centre around the future Bene Gesserit.

[@maximeregamey4458]

Outstanding video as usual, thank you so much for your work :)

[@LikeTheBuffalo]

The Hobbits of Arrakis sounds like a dope fanfic.

[@michaelshelton5488]

Or a cool band name 🤘

[@noreaeron]

Amazing video, this fed my soul that’s currently craving all dune everything❤️👏🏼👏🏼 great work, love how you use language so beautifully!

[@davidioanhedges]

Jessica truly loves Leto ... she could make him do anything she want's, but does not, and he appreciates and loves her for it - and in the books is his most able administrator, diplomat, and political advisor Any wife would not be an equal, a partner, but just a political tool - Jessica is treated as an equal, as Chani is to some degree but Paul is so distant and odd ... The utterly unfilmable first official dinner scene on Arrakis ... with all it's intrigue, diplomacy, positioning, feints, power plays ... Jessica is the one in control ...

[@alyssasketchd]

Thank you for this! Literally desperate for you to dive into “Dune:Prophecy”. As someone completely new to this world (only seen the Villenueve movies) I’m both excited and dismayed at many aspects of the show. At minimum, I appreciate how much the team is playing with the world but I’m sad they’ve only gotten 6 episodes to add to such a dense world with very heavy themes. Your video fills in a lot of the gaps I have about how women are handled in the books and I can see how “Dune: Prophecy” is trying to both be faithful while also enhance the storytelling. I just want a show about the school and the acolytes learning how to be badasses.

[@RunningRonnie]

I love your analysis and I agree with most of your points, but there are a few things, I want to emphazise: This is admittedly quiet open to interpretation, but I always had the impression that the Bene Gesserit were less forced to operate from the shadows, but rather chose to operate from the shadows. They influenced decisions within the Great Houses for millennia, but for all this time, these Families are implied to outwardly operate according to patriarcal values. It always seemed somewhat logical to me that the Bene Gesserit were deliberately upholding a patriarchal structure within the Imperium so their own power over those ruling men would be less noticable. Even though a Kwisatz Haderach is obviously more powerful than a Reverend Mother, there are still the raw numbers: In the Dune Timeline there have only been two Kwisatz Haderachs (yes, I'm ignoring Brian Herbert's material for the sake of this argument) but countless Reverend Mothers. I'd read this point less of an argument for male superiority and more like the Dune-equivalent of a "wild-card-scenario", as we have to remember countless women survived the agony, but all men except these two tried and died. I may misremember, as the Dune series is so detailed; still I am pretty sure that neither Jessica nor Chani was ever described as a "wife", but at times referred to as "concubine" in the later books. Again, my personal interpretation, but I felt that this line in the end was either Jessica constructing a fantasy for herself and Chani around the men they loved or maybe a nod to the circumstance not only they themselves, but the Fremen people find themselves in: The illusion of getting what you waited for all those years (for the two women: to be the lawful wives of the men they love; for the Fremen: a savior to lead their people into a better future). Basically, a final reminder that even the most powerful people in this universe are ignorant of the wider context or their degree of control over it.

[@lipingrahman6648]

For a book nominally about subverting the heroes journey. It basically does it if not by Paul then strangely by Leto ii. You just can’t get away from the hero truly.

[@Loki-g3k]

Subverting a hero is quite a common theme in the series and movies in the last decade.don't get me wrong. Telling stories about antagonists and villains is interesting but in the end, you need a savior.

[@lipingrahman6648]

@ true you just can’t get away from the hero, nihilistic stories are both terrible and written mostly by hacks and frauds anyway.

[@EricMcLuen]

Do any of the characters really have any agency from the manipulations of the BG and the prescience of Paul, Leto II? I am a little torn on the portrayal of Jesica in the movies. She is way to emotional. Perhaps they wanted to make her more human. And then it is she who is the manipulator. Am also torn on movie Chani, both from the changes to the chatacter and the casting. But I do like the change made to Alia's origin for the movie and am very curious for where it goes.

[@josephfisher426]

I'm not sure how empathetic Herbert was with women, but that may have made his female characters the more interesting. They were less fated and more human. Also the BGs, though ultimately unsuccessful in their plans, were much closer to success than everyone else, who were stumbling around more or less blindly. They could not describe the entire the proverbial elephant, but they got a lot of it. I can't tell from what I have read whether that was intentional or whether Herbert just wrote himself into a corner.

[@oneoftheorder]

Now I hope you read 5 and 6 -- Heretics of Dune is tied with Messiah as my personal second-favorite. You might say "the story starts getting weird." Six is the weakest of Frank's entries, but to my mind 5 is almost as good as the first. A lot of people take issue with how Chani is adapted in Villeneuve's version, but I think it's necessary to set her up as a full character whose tragedy will be her own rather than Paul's and have the appropriate emotional impact in the third film. Sinister Jessica is, I think, my favorite take on her across the three adaptations as it brings out the more sinister aspect of what she and the Bene Gesserit have done. (And while we're naming well-adapted characters, I love Life-of-Brian Stilgar too.) Alia has always been my favorite character in Dune -- I hope we get plenty of her in part 3 (or further if another director takes up Children and beyond).

[@jasonknight8581]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Chani sacrificed her power and individuality to be with Paul, who although he may love her as much as he is able to, definitely didn't make an equal sacrifice for the sake of the relationship.

[@jimluebke3869]

Children are nothing to gain? See, this is why we're in a fertility crisis. No culture will have values like yours, by the end of the century. Those that have, and cannot change, will be extinct.

[@ninshu6paths659]

I don’t get it , what power did Chani have?

[@Jamhael1]

What sacrifice you expected?

[@Jamhael1]

​@@ninshu6paths659 she was Paul's teacher.

[@ninshu6paths659]

@@Jamhael1 then she became his councillor.

[@donaldfinney7218]

I was pleasantly surprised by how much I've enjoyed the Dune Prophecy TV show. I really enjoyed this video essay. Thank you.

[@krosst1]

Awesome vid Jess, thank you.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thanks so much for watching!

[@NewoOwen7]

I love your Dune videos. Keep em coming ❤

[@flyingfoamtv2169]

Im glad to see you covering Dune more.

[@yourstrulyjohnnydollar8775]

Heretics and Chapter House are dominated by female characters. I would recommend them.

[@PatrickOMulligan]

They are, I would not recommened them for other reasons.

[@LicheLordofUndead]

Alia is my favorite Dune Female of the first three books, and yes her life was very tragic.

[@helenad8308]

I loved this analysis! This is the first video I've watched by you, but I'm definitely subscribing. Regarding your analysis, I feel there is something to be said as well for examining Chani's role in the story not just as a woman who is not part of the Bene Gesserit, but also as a woman who is coded very clearly to be of an ethnicity that is considered 'different' by the Imperium. I know there is much discussion on whether Dune can/should be viewed through the lens of racial and ethnic identity, but regardless of viewpoint, it is still worth it to consider how Chani, Alia, and Ghanimah fit into it. Also with your sponsor by Warhammer, if you are actually interested in it, I highly recommend the comedy book series Commissar Cain as a good place to start. Despite being in a heavily heavily patriarchal setting and fandom, there are a number of female characters who are actually quite nuanced. I particularly love how the series explores the question of how women are recorded in history, especially in times of war and conflict.

[@zvenlin]

Thank you Reverend Mother Jess

[@ce_rouse]

I hope you read the last three books of Dune. Most people ive met irl have only read one or two books but make it seem they've Dune all figured out.

[@CamJ95]

Always here for more dune content 🙌🏻

[@patatequiroule]

Chani might not be Bene Gesserit, but she is fremen. Her whole life is built around the ritualistic ways their society has built in the harsh environment of Dune. And those rituals are not just some legacy of the zensunni and the imperial pogroms, they bear the unmistakable mark of both the Bene Gesserit and their own wild reverent mothers. There are female characters in the two last books who indirectly tackle this issue of generational/institutional self-erasure with a lot more agency, most notably Odrade and Sheeana.

[@Frey_2026]

10:00 I know this is an ad, but seeing you talk about Dune and Warhammer 40k in the same video is like, amazing. Like if you think the universe of Dune is pessimistic, you haven't seen even the tip of the iceberg of Warhammer 40k

[@domc2452]

Great vid, thank you! I think there's a lot that you would appreciate in Heretics / Chapter House. I'm mid-way through a re-read right now though, so perhaps I'm slightly biased :)

[@TylerChambers-yx2lx]

Also, if you have read it, the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons has many of the same Dune-like blends of sci-fi and fantasy that I think you would enjoy discussing here so much.

[@sorcellerie]

This is what I've been missing from the Discourse™! I have not read the books, perhaps never will, but the films made me really interested in the story and the thing I still can't shake off is Jessica and her transformation. She never even had a life, had she? Made to be a honeypot-witch that ends up as an exiled woman turned into a broken shell of a human, most likely drugged out of her mind. It's so just so stark

[@Indra-Ant]

Dear Lady Jess in a chair, with chains in her hair. Cyclical Trauma, indeed! You're right on about that. The abused of today become the abusers of tomorrow. Who is to blame if everyone is a tool? Whoever used and abused you is to blame. We all have a choice to make about how we live our lives and treat others. In the real world, we might wonder if any given person even knew there was another way to live (victims of abuse often know only abuse, and can see no other way). We might forgive them for their ignorance. But in a world like Dune, where everyone is a supposed super-genius, the expectation is that they know exactly what they're doing. They could choose to be kind, they could choose to share power, they could choose to try to right their wrongs, or they could choose any other of a myriad of paths. That's why it's so difficult for me to accept that Paul or Leto were actually able to properly see the future and plot another course. Rather, they look to me like drug addled addicts with delusions of grandeur. They only think that they are perfect.

[@marshillmike]

And as always, a big Shoutout to the Shadout Mapes.

[@pure_the0ry]

Jessica has always been my favorite dune character. When I read the book I fell in love with the introspective brilliance and terrifying power that she exuded, in her ability to read and interact carefully with other characters like Yueh, Leto, Hera, Chani, Paul and Thufir.

I read the first 2 Dune books and I looooved what they've done with Chani's character in the Dune part 2, precisely for the agency element!

[@eddykagia4212]

I wept for Alia when I read Children of Dune! It broke me how she was alone and helpless against what was happening to her, and simply pitied by the person who did it to her. 😭😭😭

[@cristau6924]

I feel like Frank Herbert had serious mommy issues - he has more than one book with significant issues with the women being portrayed as controlling and manipulative, or as giving up their agency. I have to admit this is one of the reasons I find it very difficult to read Dune now.

[@Trotskyification]

In literature I tend to judge the complexity of how female characters are written by male authors. Whether there are portrayed in a male-dominated setting or not it is their complexities that I appreciate.

[@CaptainFSU]

One thing I love about the miniseries is that Irulan enters the story a lot earlier, which expands her character. She such a better and deeper character than Chani, she changes so much between Dune and Children of Dune. She is kind of the inverse of Jessica.

[@sxztube]

Dune is neither overtly sexist nor entirely free from gendered assumptions. It reflects the patriarchal structures of its fictional world while also critiquing the dangers of such systems. It can be interpreted as both a product of its time and a subversive examination of power, gender, and society. Ultimately, Dune reflects the real world where it has been empirically proven overwhelmingly throughout human history that, on average, women will follow men while men will not follow women.

[@tiredhoneybadger1916]

Beautifully done essay!

[@Staylecrate]

Checkout The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. The species these missionaries meet aft3er tracking a signal to a planet have an interesting dynamic. The feminine Runa and masculine Jana'ata. As with the intervention of most religion and humans, everything goes fantastic and everyone ends up super happy.

[@WolfInTheNines]

Came here while on a break from Warhammer videos...to get hit with a Warhammer ad. Legitimately made me laugh

[@johnnypop-tart335]

Only an eldar witch would know I'm painting warhammer while listening to them.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I see all.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire I buy that!

[@johnnypop-tart335]

​@@Jess_of_the_Shire corrupted by tzeentch. I'm so sad

[@Sontus718]

I feel that you are letting your biases carry you away - Having read Dune, the series, several times, I felt that the participation of the women was very strong - There is a difference between the functions, tasks, of the two sexes: the men are very short time oriented with the actions, while the planing and control of the women is over much longer time frames, thus they aren't as prevalent in the day to day actions as the men - this enhances the story as you see the differences, even in the important where Jessica goes against the sisterhood in providing the unwanted son in the wrong generation. Not all characters must be front stage all the time.

[@ninshu6paths659]

Thank you

[@DavidMonarres]

Watch the video. That is nearly exactly what she said.

[@tobyyasutake9094]

I am incredibly impressed. Dune is very multi layered, and you showed me a layer I never considered

[@wifflemonkey]

Dune is about the futilty of planning. Every story / sub-story, throughout the series, ultimately ends badly. BG plan for a KH, Paul plans to avoid the jihad, the Baron plans for the Harkonnens to be in power forever, House Corrino plans to assassinate the twins, etc. Everyone who tries to plan fails and the biggest planners are the BG, thus they fail the most. The tradegy of women in Dune is that they are almost all planners or get caught up in a planners plan, Chani is killed by BG interference, Alia is doomed (from pre-birth) by BG planning, even Ghanima is forced into playing a role as part of a plan (thou that plan is outside of the 3 books Jess is discussing).

[@rmsgrey]

Leto plans to rule for a thousand years then be assassinated...

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Beautifully said! Blind reliance on plans and systems will always be the downfall

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Never trust in the system, man!

[@jimluebke3869]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire If you need an antidote for all these plans-within-plans, might I suggest Connie Wills' _To Say Nothing of the Dog_ for your next book? It's a wonderful story about the chaos of history, and the varied outcomes of human planning.

[@ALTR_no_EGO]

Fancy Jess rivals Gothic Jess for setting mood. Fantastic work, as usual, ma'am.

[@Solomance]

The Lady Jess, of the shire. Thank you for another insightful and masterfully delivered multi media essay. Could we hear an audio book, or compilation of song from the page?

[@ArtbyMinervaFox]

You've put into words what has always bugged me whenever my friends tout Dune as very Feminist. Thank you for your eloquence!

[@confusedwhale]

16:45 It's not that she's his quite between storms. It's that they will only be together between the storms.

[@craigkember4198]

Am I correct in remembering that Chani is the only character that defeats Paul in real battle (not training) during their first encounter when Paul slips away from the Fremen and Chani captures him?

[@Abacabb1]

God, I love when you talk about Dune! I need to finish all the books before I watch everything, though.

[@jasonrosa5268]

Definitely not getting into the end of this podcast:) but loved some of your points!

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

This is exquisite. Thank you for sharing.

[@The116thDoctor]

Would love to see an updated version of this video after you read books 5&6.

[@Loki-g3k]

Thanks for your interesting take. Among women who had tragic destiny, you didn't mentioned irulan. Ironically she is the only with a happy ending ( compare to other characters).

[@michaelshelton5488]

Robert Jordan's Aes Sedai remind me of the Bene Gesserit