What if the Balrog Got the Ring? | Tolkien Theory

What would the Balrog do with the One Ring? What effect would it have on it? Would the balrog be loyal to Sauron? We tackle these questions and more in today's Tolkien Theory!
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Balrog - Jerry Vanderstelt
Balrog - Daniel_Govar
bridge of khazad-dum, gandalf vs balrog - kuliszu
Misty Mountains - Felix Englund
Moria Gate - Soni Alcorn-Hender
The Eastern Arches - Alan Lee
Balrog - John_Howe
Gandalf and Balrog - Daniel Dougherty
khazad-dum - CK Goksoy
The Balrog - Ted Nasmith
Felix Englund - Gandalf Balrog
Gandalf v Balrog - Dzmitry Yakhouski
Balrog - JG Jones
Flame of Udûn - Manuel Castañón
Bane of Durin - Jerry Vanderstelt
Gandalf and the Balrog - Matthew Stewart
Moria - John Howe
Gandalf - skullb*st*rd
Balrog - John Howe
Balrog - John Howe
Elessar - John Howe
Legolas - John Howe
Boromir - John Howe
Balrog - John Howe
One Ring To Rule - Anthony Catillaz
Balrog - John Howe
Balrog - John Howe
The One Ring - John Howe
Balrog - James Bousema
Gandalf and the Balrog Upon Celebdil - Ted Nasmith
At The Bridge - Ted Nasmith
balrog-benwootten - WETA
Fingon and Gothmog - Ted Nasmith
Balrog - John Howe
the one ring - Dzmitry Yakhouski
fall of gondolin, glorfindel vs balrog - mellorianj
Moria Orcs - John Howe
Gothmog - Steve Airola
Balrog - John Howe
Battle of Sudden Flame - Alan Lee
Tulkas and Morgoth - Ralph Damiani
Angband - dracarysdrekkar
ainur, children of iluvatar - nahar
Fantasy landscape - Felix Englund
Lorien - Ralph Damiani
Lothlórien - Alan Lee
Sauron - Jerry Vanderstelt
The Great Eye - Ralph Damiani
Sauron - SoW
sauron army - weta
Saruman the White - Daniel Govar
Approaching Edoras - Ted Nasmith
Saruman - John Howe
Sauron - Janka Latečková
Dark valley - Felix Englund
White Hand of Saruman - Ralph Damiani
Denethor with the palantir - Anna Kulisz
Lord Denethor - Peter Xavier Price
Minas Tirith - Alan Lee
The Riders of Rohan - Ted Nasmith
battle of ford - James Rinere
Helms Deep - Ralph Damiani
riders of rohan - kuliszu
Battle - Anke Eissmann
The One Ring - Kinko White
The One Ring - John Howe
King Aragorn - Steve Airola
Uruk Commander - John Howe
Easterling - Olanda Fong-Surdenas
Saruman - LOTRO
The Uruk-hai - John Howe
Saruman - Steve Airola
Mouth of Sauron - John Howe
Battle in the distance -Felix Englund
Morgoth and Sauron - Ralph Damiani
Ecthelion and Gothmog - Abe Papakhian
Sauron the Deceiver - Ralph Damiani
Sauron the Deceiver - Olanda Fong-Surdenas
Sauron - anotherstranger_me
But Morgoth sent the more - Catherine Chmiel
spirit of sauron - skullb*st*rd
orcs - Angus McBride
Orc Army - Jan Pospíšil
saruman - Dzmitry Yakhouski
Door of Night - John Howe
Morgoth - Ralph Damiani
saruman of many colours - Tolman Cotton
Saruman and Palantir - Angus McBride
Mirrormere - Alan Lee
gandalf the white - bembiann
#balrog #lordoftherings #tolkien

[@NerdoftheRings]

What theory would you like to see me cover next?!

[@joshuamitchell2]

What if Radagast gets the ring?

[@myriadmediamusings]

Perhaps what if Boromir survived the end of Fellowship of the Ring?

[@Reggaebass]

What if Isildur had been prepared for the attack in the gladden fields and the ring never got the chance to betray him?

[@kryzieg]

Glorfindel playing uno reversal card and takes the Ring

[@MrsMegary]

what if elrond gets the ring

[@prokesuk]

I think the ring would be a calming influence on the Balrog causing it to reevaluate its life. It would then travel to the shire where it would spend its days lying on the grass with the hobbit folk while smoking a pipe.

[@NerdoftheRings]

😂😂😂

[@Broockle]

Actually yeah. If Hobbits are so easy going and masters of living in peace without ambition then the one ring should amplify that particular trait. So actually the ring should really calm Frodo down 😆 But since it doesn't, maybe we can apply that kind of opposite logic onto the Balrog. 🤔

[@paulprovenzano3755]

Just don’t ask it for a light.

[@TheAaronRodgersTao]

For sure!!! How did I not see it!

[@ParameterGrenze]

*puffing smoke* Balrog: „You know … I think my anger issues come from my chosen father Morgoth. He never saw me for who I really am you see…“

[@chrismcknight7164]

After 6,000yrs inside, the Balrog stands at the East Gate, blinking in the bright sunlight and looking at the vast, open spaces, starts feeling dizzy and runs back inside vowing that it'll "destroy the world tomorrow"

[@chrism6315]

'On second thought, let's not go to mirkwood, it is a silly place'

[@dirkdiggler5581]

Sounds like the balrog has severe depression

[@Sonicboom2007]

Ya, I don’t think the Balrog would leave Moria, even with Ring. It survived the Battle of the Powers, the War for the Sake of the Elves AND the War of Wraith by knowing when to call it quits and hide, or at least not make itself a big enough threat that the Valar have to step in. It’s not going anywhere until Melkor calls out for it directly.

[@jeffreyagersea567]

This is actually a pretty viable scenario. Like when the ring was lost in the river, it could very easily have the balrog return to slumber with the ring. Then another 2000 years later the dwarves dig too deep again, and summon a much more powerful, angry, balrog.

[@mkay1957]

The Balrog would wind up stuck inside for another 6,000 years while it played video games, growing fatter, lazier, dumber, and losing all ambition to do anything. Just like most of the kiddies today.

[@malevellysian]

dude, what you envisioned for saruman is PERFECT

[@NerdoftheRings]

Thanks!! I figured he would be trying to use all his cunning and plan betrayals left and right.

[@Nibiru3600X]

💯

[@toferg.8264]

Absolutely! It fit perfectly!

[@bobsterclause342]

no it isn't it requires teh ring helping kill it's master, which is nonsence

[@bastait]

another one who unironically thinks the rings of powert wasnt a steaming abortion of tolkiens work.

[@fabricio_zm]

Would love to see a scenario "if Bilbo didnt have pity and killed Gollum".. this way not only Bilbo wouldnt give up the ring so easly, but also Sauron would never know about "Shire, Baggings" and Frodo wouldnt have a guide... kinda crazy

[@xlerb2286]

That's a wonderful suggestion, I'd love to see Nerd of the Rings cover that as well. :)

[@ThePeacemaker848]

Sam would have picked up the slack, found a way into mordor, take the ring from frodo amd cast it into mount doom.

[@lubu5367]

But then how does he or the Wraiths know when Frodo uses the ring? Since Frodo is a long way from Kansas.

[@ebransc09]

Bilbo consumed by evil, forces Sam to murder L. Sackville Baggins & cook her into a pie

[@Perseus-u4g]

No one would be around to stop Frodo from keeping the ring for himself

[@Disgruntled_Grunt]

I'm not usually interested by LotR what-ifs, since most of them overlook the interconnected nature of the storytelling and just result in mashing Tolkien-based action figures against each other, but this one actually seemed like a comprehensive account of the rippling effects your scenario would cause. The Balrog's rampage resulting in an inverted battle of five-ish armies was a disturbingly fun surprise. Also, this beats the hell out of The _Broken Blade_ channel's take on this, in which they accidentally refer to the Balrog as a "foul servant of the Secret Fire." Which is just precious xD

[@GreenSoap]

Missed opportunity to name the video ”What would happen if Durin’s bane got hold of Isildur’s bane”

[@rvkice23]

WHY DOES HE WEAR THE MASK??

[@Pumpkin525]

@@rvkice23 "Ah, you think the ring is your ally..."

[@michaelcristel3060]

" I dub thee...Bane Bane."

[@hellomate639]

@@michaelcristel3060 Bane Bane then becomes Sauron's Bane. Bane Bane, Sauron's Bane. Bane BaneBane.

[@CheeseburgerRandy17]

Nobody cared before i put on the mask

[@Lutoures]

If there was ever allowance for the use of a curse word in the Legendarium, it should be reserved for Denethor's reaction upon seeing a ring-bearing Balrog in the Palantíri.

[@thomasfuller5932]

I want to imagine a scenario where Sauron realizes just how badly has messed up and attempts to plead to the Valar like “I know I have done some really bad things, but can we all agree that is a bigger issue?”

[@joachimdurchholz8554]

Fighting the wielder of the One Ring, be it Sauron, the balrog, or anybody else, would still destroy Middle-Earth, so they would still not interfere. And the would not take Sauron back, because powerless shadow or not, he'd try to exert his influence anyway.

[@MasterGhostf]

Wasn't sauron more powerful than a balrog?

[@joachimdurchholz8554]

@@MasterGhostf It's a bit hard to compare. Both were Maiar, so they were roughly at the same power level. Both served under Morgoth, Sauron as a capable lieutenant of "evil wisdom", the balrogs as Morgoth's elite guard and their captain as the commander of Morgoth's main fortress and home. It's pretty conceivable that a Balrog could use the Ring just as well as Sauron, though not with full finesse.

[@MasterGhostf]

@@joachimdurchholz8554 definitely but I don't think it would be a "valar" level threat. Sauron wielded it and the valar didn't get involved.

[@marcpeterson1092]

@@joachimdurchholz8554So they make war on Morgoth, but leave a successor to do whatever? Don't buy it.

[@NoxInABox69]

2:30 Shireling: Master Baggins, there are too many of them. What are we going to do? Frodo: *Ignites Sting.*

[@SevenGC89]

Man you have such a great knack for story telling, I would love to see someone make this theory into a movie.

[@PurplePuffy1]

yea but he missed the biggest flaw in this theory. The balrog is simply too damm big. The ring cant just expand that big and fit the girth of a balrog. Things can only expand so much before it gets ridiculous. maybe if he put it on the tip of his tail .

[@marthdaeglin]

The big question I have is “Would a balrog master the ring?” Gandalf makes it quite clear that he would be mastered by it. Would a balrog be strong enough to flip the ring’s loyalty, or would its strength enhance the ring’s famed treachery? I like the idea of Galadriel, Saruman, and Sauron suddenly realizing there’s a balrog on the loose.

[@Bt-cq6te]

I feel like the balrog would not be corrupted by the ring, as it is already corrupted by morgoth, a far stronger influence than sauron. If the white council found out there's a balrog on the loose, well they probably won't be very surprised. Gandalf would probably set out to meet the balrog in battle, galadriel could play more conservatively and decide not to act or join gandalf, and saruman would do as saruman does.

[@untruelie2640]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. One can both master the ring and be corrupted by it at the same time. Yes, the ring has a mind of its own since it was made with Sauron's own essence and power, but that doesn't mean that the ringbearer automatically turns into a puppet of the ring. A weak bearer may be tricked into claiming the ring and thus allowing Sauron to defeat him, but a powerful being who uses the ring can use it to its full potential (after some time of learning how to handle it). The ring's sinister and corrupting influence isn't rooted in it's "mind", but in the power it represents for every living being. It's the ultimate tool of domination and coercion. The corruption it causes is the promise of total power over all things and beings - this is what makes it almost irresistible. The more noble-minded beings with strong will can resist this temptation longer than others, but in the end EVERYONE (except Tom Bombadil) would be corrupted. Yes, a weaker bearer would become a slave to the ring (like Gollum), but a being that is already powerful itself could successfully turn the ring against its own creator. But still, the new bearer would never give up on the goal of domination - that's what led Sauron to create it in the first place, what motivated him to join Morgoth, even what caused Morgoth to oppose Eru and the Valar in the very beginning of Ea. It's the "original sin" in Tolkien's world.

[@GmanGSW]

I agree with your theory. I believe Durin's Bane would be pulled towards Sauron, not to fight, but to pull it's "madter" to it's Real Master, Sauron. Then, the Balrog fights or Sauron gets the ring back and is as whole as he could be. Very intriguing! Also, would the Balrog even fight? Many underlings would leave him for "The True" Ring Bearer...

[@untruelie2640]

@@GmanGSW It's very clearly stated by Tolkien that a powerful enough bearer could defeat Sauron with the ring. I think you overestimate its "loyalty". The Balrog is a Maia, and one that is even more versed in forcing its will upon others than Gandalf or even Saruman. Mastering the ring would be easier for him.

[@Seven_Leaf]

The Balrogs are not interested in Sauron or his plans of ruling. Their master was Morgoth. Either the Balrog will deem himself the heir and continue Morgoth's plans or will try to bring back Morgoth.

[@myriadmediamusings]

One what if I think would be cool to see is what if Isildur survived, specifically surviving the final ambush after his retinue and eldest sons were killed and he lost the ring. There could be some interesting possibilities and explorations with him trying to cope with losing the ring, and maybe Arnor not splintering.

[@cooter882]

That would be a great what if

[@C.D.G.1]

The first ring bearer. Interesting.

[@TheGreatUnwashedThing]

@@cooter882It would be interesting to have a situation where, at least on the face of it, the Free Peoples are actually in a better position than in canon. (Another interesting scenario to me would be what if Gondor collapsed and Arnor survived.)

[@gabewinter9406]

He probably would have searched for the ring because he went crazy for it

[@cooter882]

@TheGreatUnwashedThing that's amazing aswell buddy your imagination is off the chart

[@ArtsiBurn]

Durin's Bane picking up frodo and burning him to ash leaving nothing but the one ring in its hand is so badass

[@dirkdiggler5581]

That’s the movie in an alternate universe and I don’t see it to be worse. Defo would watch

[@concept5631]

People that think Tolkien wouldn't do something like that haven't read the Silmarillion.

[@Thurgosh_OG]

The only bit I'd debate there, is that the Balrogs fire might not be enough to melt Sting. Sting was Numenorean and magically imbued, so might have just fallen to the ground nearby, to be picked by Gandalf the White on his way out of Moria.

[@ArtsiBurn]

@@Thurgosh_OG that would be even more awesome actually

[@jrb651013]

Interesting take,but... I think it's flawed. In Unfinished tales, when the Nazgul visit Orthanc during the hunt for the ring, befiore they head north to the shire, Saruman, who has studied ring lore, says: “You already know that I don't have it, because if I did, you would bow down and call me Lord.” So I don't think the Nazgul would serve Sauron, rather then the Balrog. Given the Ring's historical "treachery" in seeking its orignal master, I think there is a question of whether or not a fellow Maia would be powerful enough to overcome that pull; Saruman obviously thought so, but this may have been due to corruptive power of the ring. But, there is also the example of Galadriel who like Saruman, and with somewhat less power hunger says: "In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!" Her words reinforce the view that Maia and the most powerful of the elves might be able to truly "master" the ring. Either way, I think it's highly unlikely that a ringless Sauron would be able to hold the allegiance the Nazgul, in the near term, against a near peer power.

[@jeremywrentzel]

I saw one comment that said Sauron would make a plea to the Valar to get involved, and I think that's correct. We've seen him throw himself at the mercy of greater powers before, in the Silmarilion. Also, i think the Balrog would reach the land of Tom Bombadil and with the ring, start burning the old forest, and Tom would come out fighting like a champ. That would be the Balrog's biggest challenge by far. If, like it says in LOTR, the Balrog waited until the rest of the world had fallen into shadow, Tom might then lose, but if it happened before that, Tom and maybe a force from Rivendell with Elrond and Cirdan both present, that would be an epic showdown

[@rcplane161]

Tom Bombadil vs the Balrog with the One Ring would be effing epic

[@eiraki]

Okay but Saruman’s arc here was SPOT ON.

[@mon_moi]

I think a cool continuation to that epilogue could be that Durin's Bane turns on Umbar, Harad, and Rhun, since balrogs have no desire to rule Middle Earth like Sauron did; therefore the human realms in the south and east set aside their differences with the north and all band together to resist the balrog. I can even imagine Saruman reluctantly teaming up with the rest of the Istari with Gandalf their new leader to take down Durin's Bane because of how perilous everything has become

[@udrevnavremena]

Good one!

[@HomerIncognito]

The ring would make the balrog desire to rule over the Middle Earth.

[@VisibleNoises]

@@HomerIncognito Not necessarily, Tolkien does state that Gandalf (and presumably other Maia) could master the One and seize control away from it from Sauron. Which from Sauron's perspective would result in the same effect as destruction did. I think in that scenario, it would just magnify the evil traits of the wielder but not necessarily in the same way as Sauron's goals.

[@jake9652]

For starters, I think you should do a Part 2 to this video. The last Northern alliance led by Gandalf sounds interesting. A Balrog assault on Valinor could also be very interesting, because it puts into question one of my main gripes with the balance of power between good and evil in Tolkien's universe where even though Morgoth plants deceit and treasury in good, the greater world (i.e. Valinor) always felt that good vastly outnumbered evil even when evil seemed to get the upper hand on occasion. Basically, Valinor feels like a Deus Ex Machina solution if the worst truly were to come, so I'd want to see a Balrog plan that really tries to deal with a land of a pantheon of gods and legions of powerful elves. How would Saruman play a role in that? I don't think orcs, Easterlings,, and Haradrim would be enough. Here's an idea: What if the Balrog and Saruman used Shelob to breed a force of spiders unlike anything ever seen? Maybe they would be larger, unafraid of light, able to spread darkness, insatiably hungry, and armored by the industry of the orc.

[@janregenda5573]

Please, do it

[@TheRainstormer]

YES plz, a part 2 of this scenario would be amazing! when the video ended i was like NOOOOooo i wanna know how this ends so badly! lol

[@elijahgillies7754]

I love this pitch so much, I do feel like Valinor has too many unquantifiable variables in it's defence to figure out a decent idea of how it'd all go down there. But Gandalf the white returning to lead the last northern alliance, you gotta imagine Iluvatar would return him with the power and knowledge he needs to save the last vestiges of free people in middle earth. do you think he'd be returned with the intent to guide the free people to victory, or is the situation dire enough Eru has to step in and pull off a Deus Ex Machina through Gandalf and/or the Valar?

[@SMiki55]

Saruman wouldn't want the destruction of Valinor. His ambition is to rule, not to wreak mindless havoc.

[@M.C.-jh8hs]

Leaving aside the impossibility of the "Balrog attacks Valinor" scenario, and assuming that the Balrog's fleet somehow reaches the shore without getting wrecked by Ulmo & co., the outcome will depend on whether orcs are considered Children of Iluvatar. We sort of have an idea of what would happen in either case. If they are, you will have Numenor 2.0 but slightly less apocalyptic: Manwe asks Iluvatar for help because he would literally have no other choice, and the story ends there. If they are not, you're looking at a souped-up Maia and bunch of savages attacking the seat of power of the Valar. Sure, there might be some destruction and some casualties, and some Teleri ships might get burned (again!), but... look at how the War of Wrath played out. A one-Balrog invasion would end in a curbstomp battle.

[@joviatrisyvaine]

Yes yes! That wasn't the ending i expected, so interesting, so Gandalf the white resurrected, he rides North to mobilize the Elves of Mirkwood, the Men of Dale and the Dwarves of Erebore to go and aid Elrond in Revendel. Meanwhile, as the combined forces of Elves, Men and Dwarves match west, a word is sent to the IronHills to warn the Dwarves of the risen threat. The combined forces of Elves, Men and Dwarves from Mirkwood, Dale and Erebor respectively manage to reach in time before Revendel falls under the forces of the Balrog. With Saruman having remained at Othanc, and the Nazgul dispatched East to seize Gondor, the Balrog and it's forces are driven out of Revendel with the aid of Gandalf the White. The Balrog retreats back to Othanc and the combined forces of Elves, Men and Dwarves are victorious. The Elves of Mirkwood, The men of Dale and Dwarves retreat back to their realms. This victory spreads across the whole of Eriador, to the Shire, the Blue Mountains and to the Elves of Lindon. With time, they start mobilising forces to match south to Othanc. The news of the Balrog's defeat didn't only spread across Eriador, but also reached Saruman. This encourages him to start plotting against the Balrog and take the Ring for himself and rule Middle Earth. Meanwhile, the victorious forces of Revendel manage to mobilize more forces from the Dwarves in blue mountains, Elves in Lindon and Dunedain rangers at the Tower of Amon Sul. They start matching south to Othanc. As they are doing so, Saruman faces off one on one with the Balrog. With overwhelming power of the ring, the Balrog, towering and fearsome, unleashes it's flames and whip-like appendages towards Saruman. Saruman, with his cunning and mastery of magic, strategically maneuvers around the Balrog, exploiting weaknesses in its defenses. Utilizing his knowledge of ancient lore and spells, Saruman channels powerful blasts of energy, weakening the Balrog's fiery form. With a final incantation, Saruman binds the Balrog in chains of magical energy, sealing its fate. The Balrog, unable to break free, succumbs to Saruman's superior intellect and sorcery, ensuring victory for the White Wizard, but with severe wounds and weakened in power despite possessing the one Ring. The mobilized forces from the Tower of Amon Sul under Elrond, the Dunedains, Elves from Lindon, Dwarves from the Blue Mountains and Gandalf reach in time and face minor resistance from the confused Orcs at Othanc after the battle between Saruman and Balrog. With Saruman having been weakened from the battle between him the Balrog, he's no match to the resurrected Gandalf the White and thus Othanc is seized and Saruman is defeated. With the one Ring in possession of the victorious forces, they are joined by the Elves of Mirkwood, Men of Dale, the Beonings, and re-enforced Dwarves of Erebor from the IronHills at Othanc, The Men of Rohan from Helms Deep that had survived the great force of the defeated Sauron and the Balrog also join them to Match to Gondor and then Mordor to destroy the Ring

[@stevenavila960]

Glorfindel is in the armory at Rivendell taking a break from training and reading a letter from Cirdan, he smiles and you can hear him whisper "for Gondolin". Elrond walks in "what are you grinning at, a Balrog of Morgoth has the One Ring!" Glorfindel looks up, "because my boy Ecthelion just showed up at the Grey Havens..."

[@theobsessedgrimreaper7909]

A rematch of a balrog vs Glorfindel would be glorious

[@Karin_Allen]

But if the balrog has the One Ring, then Glorfindel should have one of the three Elven rings if he's going to stand half a chance. Since he was last seen in Rivendell in the books, then it would make sense for Elrond to give him *his* ring. As powerful as Elrond is in his own right, he's never taken on a balrog -- and Elrond is only alive because Glorfindel saved Elrond's father when he killed the balrog at Gondolin!

[@Ethan-if6hz]

I think Glorfindel defeats the balrog even with the ring. Though he probably dies in the process.

[@volkl787]

No he would die. Glorfindel killed a balrog without advanced powers and still died in the process

[@hobbes1887]

​@Karin_Allen problem is, the wielder of the One has power over the Three. No elf have ever used a ring of power against Sauron. So no elf would or could use it against a Balrog who had claimed the One. That said, Elrond+Glorfindel+Cirdan+ Thranduil could manage something I think. They still have great power. Maybe they could even ask for Earendil aid. Now immagine the light of the Silmaril piercing through the dark clouds, as Vingilot descends onto earth and hordes of orcs burn alive in the light of the Trees xD. That would be a sigth to behold. That would be a sight capable of having the Balrog shitting his royal pants.

[@Karin_Allen]

@@hobbes1887 I have to admit I didn't *really* think Glorfindel would stand a chance against a balrog wearing the One Ring. 😉 But I like your idea of combining the forces of Elrond, Glorfindel, Cirdan, and Thranduil (though I'm not sure Thranduil is very powerful compared to the other three). The question then is, what would they do if Earendil *couldn't* help them? I'm asking mostly as a thought exercise, but Manwe seem to have a policy of "I'll only do this once," and he gave Earendil special dispensation to join the War of Wrath. And that was because they were fighting Morgoth himself, not a Maia. The only help the Valar gave Middle-earth in fighting Sauron was a handful of Istari, only one of whom succeeded in his mission. But I do think the Elven leaders would have to contact the Valar. They could do it through Ulmo since he's still active throughout the world and is sympathetic to Middle-earth. Then maybe Ulmo could convince the Valar to send a different kind of assistance - at the very least, Istari who were *Valar* rather than Maiar. But if the Valar aren't willing to go that route, I'm not sure what the next option would be. What do you think? This is a fun thing to consider.

[@mtoboekid11mouse88]

Your epilogues in these are always my favorite, because in all of them that I've seen, you give the world hope again. You remind us that even in your darkest what-ifs, hope isn't lost. Gandalf will still come back. Faramir and Eowyn will still meet and have a chance to lead their people together towards a stand against evil. Your epilogues in these, I think, are so in line with the overall themes in lotr, that no matter how bad it gets, light and good will find a way.

[@valentinkambushev4968]

The Balrog getting the Ring would have been a massive hit on Sauron's fragile ego.

[@bobsterclause342]

No, I don't think so the ring corupts and contgrols, and so does saruon, so having this trap would just make sauron snear devilishly in anticipation of a new minion

[@DinJaevel]

It would take several hundred orcs to fix the damage done to the dry walls of Barad-Dûr, by the dark lord himself.

[@sugoi9680]

@@bobsterclause342 The balrogs served Morgoth long before Sauron

[@Dinoslay]

@@bobsterclause342 The balrog was already a corrupted Maiar. What’s with more corruption from a close relative? So nah, I think Sauron would have a problem in his hands with this type of ringbearer being way harder to control than a mere human, hobbit or even wizard.

[@DaRealNeithan]

I see you got the Ring. And your Schwartz is as big as mine! 🤣

[@shadowdweller6738]

Based on Sauron's history, I personally find it more plausible that: He initially tries to convince the Balrog to return the ring; keeping himself out of danger while doing so. If that fails, he might attempt to take it by force. But if THAT fails, he tries to create a false shape and persona he can use to attempt to ally with the other powers in middle-earth, potentially including Elrond, Galadriel, et al. Possibly passing himself off as some sort of human prince from the East? Of course, Sauron hates them and tries to gather the means to corrupt and destroy their forces even if collaborating with them. And they might see through any attempt Sauron makes at deception. Ultimately, if the Balrog gains the ring and refuses to heel, it becomes threat #1 as far as Sauron is concerned.

[@CB-lh4ph]

I don't think Sauron would immediately leave Mordor with an army. He'd almost certainly send a Nazgul first to negotiate with the Balrog, to see if he can get any idea how the Balrog would feel about joining forces/serving Sauron. Sauron would definitely be afraid that the Balrog wanted to usurp him, as that's what he would do, and as we know from the "Why weren't the cracks of doom guarded" question, Sauron isn't great at viewing things from any perspective other than his own, but he would also know that if the Balrog truly did want to usurp him, riding out with an army to meet him would be futile. He would be terrified, and fortify himself in Barad Dur, just as Morgoth did in Angband.

[@TheKnightOfSmite]

Witch King of Angmar would be his representative and Balrog wouldn't be able to fully kill him, or allow him to get close

[@Jasonsoloka2024]

I disagree. With the ring the balrog could kill the witch king and make him become what sauron does after defeat in canon. ​@@TheKnightOfSmite

[@Sonicboom2007]

IMO Sauron would have no choice but to throw everything he has at the Balrog ASAP. The Balrog is in the same tier as Gandalf, whom Tolkien stated had about 50/50 chance of fully mastering the Ring and stripping it from Sauron forever. Sauron cannot afford to give the Balrog enough time to learn how to use the Ring and potentially take full control over it, so he’ll have to make his move immediately.

[@NewRepublicLoyalist]

I think it highly likely that in this scenario, particularly if Gandalf fails a second time, the Valar would ultimately intervene once more and Eriador would go the way of Beleriand.

[@Theomite]

I dunno. The Valar didn't destroy Eriador, that was Eru. So I think they would've intervened had the Balrog tried to invade Valinor. But if Sauron could have conceivably conquered Middle-Earth without the Valar intervening, than so could the Balrog.

[@NewRepublicLoyalist]

@Theomite Beleriand was destroyed as a direct consequence of the War of Wrath, due to the utter devastation inflicted on the land by the warring hosts of Valinor and Angband, so I can't see Eriador faring too much better in the event of a second such war. Additionally, the reason I think the Valar would intervene against Durin's Bane even if they wouldn't against Sauron is because Sauron only ever wished to rule over Middle Earth, while the balrog's goal is explicitly Middle Earth's destruction and the return of Morgoth. The former preserves Eru's creations (which the Valar have at least some responsibility to protect), while the latter absolutely does not. Sure, Eru himself might be more prone to intervene in this scenario, too, but I believe he would rather have the Valar do it.

[@stephenpickering8063]

@@NewRepublicLoyalist I would agree. While the Valar failed in their initial aims after Morgoth's initial defeat and then again on his escape after destroying the trees I think the sheer level of total devastation that a Balrog bolstered by the ring would prompt them to intervene, possibly with some prodding by Eru himself. It would likely be devastating to much of the west, although hopefully not as devastating as the destruction of Beleriand as their facing only a single Balrog, albeit one possibly strengthen somewhat by the ring.

[@tooslow4065]

@@stephenpickering8063if eru got involved, couldnt he take out the balrog without doing damage to the world?

[@stephenpickering8063]

@@tooslow4065 In theory he's all powerful so he should be able to do just about anything. However according to the books he's only intervened once, to destroy Numinor at the request of the Valar but why it was done in such a destructive way there might be something in the notes as to why a less destructive method couldn't be used?

[@AndrewCarlisle11B]

This was a fun one, interested in Saruman's role in the theory. The epilogues always are fun, and this one did not disappoint. A follow up theory on attempting to free Morgoth would be awesome.

[@mr.gevanni5121]

And if Galadriel comes back as the leader of the remaining Noldor to fight back would be nice.

[@johnmooers5594]

The Balrog would never subordinate themselves to Sauron, and Saruman would never subordinate himself to the Balrog. Saruman may reconcile with the White Council and resume his role as the White Wizard as intended, while hiding his true ambition to rule himself. As soon as the Balrog claims the ring for himself, the bearers of the Three would perceive it and remove their rings. The elves of Lorien would flee north to join Thranduil. Saruman could use him "voice" to convince leaders of Gondor, Rohan, Erebor, Mirkwood, and Rivendell to form an alliance against this new "dark lord." As the Balrog increased his hold over the one ring, Orcs, Trolls, and the Nazgul would desert Sauron. Sauron might attempt to fight the Balrog directly but would likely lose. Or Sauron may flee to the East as he has done several times before, but once the Balrog "masters" the One Ring, Sauron would fade as his power is ripped away. After that it's a crap shoot. The Blue Wizards may appear with forces from the East or South. Saruman joins the forces of Rohan and Gondor. The Elves of Lindon and Rivendell join with the Elves of Mirkwood, Men of Dale, and Dwarves of Erebor and the Iron Hills. Radagst marches alongside Thranduill and Celeborn. If the Balrog moved south, then the great battle would be in the Wold or nearer to Edoras. With the remaining four Istari present, Eru would have no reason to reincarnate Olorin. Who would win this battle? Without the Corsairs to distract a full muster of Gondor, the hosts of the West may hold their own against the Orcs of Moria and Dol Goldur. I'd give the allies a better than even chance to defeat the Orcs and Trolls. The Balrog cannot make a cloud of shadow over Rohan since that was done using Mount Doom's volcanic clouds. It would come down to a repeat of Elendil/Gil-Galad v. Sauron with Elrond, Celeborn, Theodred, Imrahil v. the Balrog. My money would be on Elrond since he would have the backing of four Istari. Saruman could not help himself and he lunges for the ring as the Balrog goes down but dies as the Balrog falls upon him, destroying Saruman's body. Elrond takes the Ring to Mount Doom, destroying it, escaping on an Eagle.

[@mavor101]

Eru wouldn't allow the Balrog to annihilate middle earth, so in any case, there would be some sort of heavy dues ex machina here.

[@riccardobert1950]

Really interesting take. Im not saying youre wrong by any means, but do you really think that Elrond with the support of the istari could take on the Balrog wielding like 99,9% of Saurons Power + having his own powers amplified by a huge margin? In my imagination a Ring powered Balrog would be even "worse" (in the sense that its a lot closer to prime Morgoth) than prime Sauron.

[@clobberelladoesntreadcomme9920]

@@mavor101 Unless it was in the Song.

[@barrylyndon5552]

Funny that Saruman and the Balrog probably knew each other from school. Also before the universe existed "Well... kind of awkward... I like your wings"

[@arturleperoke3205]

„What if the Inkeep of The Dancing Pony claims the Ring?“ Nerd of the Rings: As always, Sauron will be crushed

[@Klishar122]

I can’t imagine Galadriel would just stay in one place waiting for the balrog to come get her. More than likely, she would dispatch a company of archers to delay the orcs as much as possible while her people would attempt to make a run for it. As for her, I could see Galadriel taking a small escort to make an escape eastward. The trick would be to evade both the Balrog to the north and Sauron to the east. Eventually though, she’d make it and reunite with her people in Mirkwood. Just in time for Gandalf’s return.

[@vitorbarreto2022]

A suggestion: what if Faramir went to Rivendell instead of Boromir? I think that would be really interesting since Faramir would know more about the lands near Gondor and could offer a protection to Frodo and Sam in their travels with Gollum. Anyways, great vid, as always!

[@mobes8876]

I think Durin’s Bane definitely would not agree with Sauron’s vision of Middle Earth, so he would definitely try to keep the Ring in the hope of bringing back Morgoth. I think that is the most accurate of the video. Everything else is cool speculation. Good video. I can see it coming out a lot of different ways, but the result is always the same: destruction.

[@simonhandy962]

The One Ring would betray even the Balrog over time and even a defeated and formless Sauron would find a chance to recover the Ring. Only if the Balrog somehow released Melkor beforehand and surrendered the One Ring to him would The One Ring be born by a being with a will even greater than its creator's.

[@theolaa]

I love how you incorporate elements and plot points from the actual story as much as possible. It really make your theories seem that much more credible.

[@danieldickson8591]

In Tolkien's cosmology, Balrogs are literally fallen angels. No mindless beasts, they were Morgoth's mightiest servants after Sauron himself. Note that in the novels, Saruman was never under the command of Sauron. He sought to claim the One Ring's power for himself, as is consistent with its temptation to the Great.

[@liamhiggins3787]

Love these What If videos. Would love to see some centered around the 1st or 2nd Age maybe. Keep up the great work!!!❤

[@DamonNomad82]

This is the theory I've wanted to see for a long time! I agree that Durin's Bane wouldn't give the Ring to Sauron, as it would see him as a failed upstart, who joined Morgoth much later than the Balrogs had, and was too diminished without his Ring for the Balrog to respect his raw power, either. One difference I think as to how things would play out is that Sauron would be aware of this, and would, instead of confronting Durin's Bane with only his own forces, he would likely form an extremely mistrustful and uneasy alliance of sheer necessity with the Free Peoples to combat the even greater threat to all of them. What would come of THAT situation is anyone's guess...

[@Albtraum_TDDC]

Good points. I didn't buy that part of the story (what-if) either. Your versions makes for a better story too. It's also a bit strange to visualize the Balrog hold Sauron and burning him like that, when Sauron did a similar thing to Gil-Galad. I think Sauron's body was pretty similar to a Balrog at this point, black and hot, shadow and flame.

[@Kjf365]

I mean, wouldn't the ring just abandon the Balrog when given the opportunity to return to Sauron? Like it did all those other times? It's literally the main thing of the ring is that it coaxes people to fight unwinnable battles against Sauron just to slip off their fingers at the right moment.

[@nickhouston6089]

Oh the cliffhanger at the end with Gandalf the White returning! I know it is not in the style of this NOTR to further speculation, but what an alternate trilogy this scenario would make! Gandalf goes to Rivendell, inspiring Elrond to call upon his ancestor Earendil to return in his mighty skyship and the Valar to enter the fray and start kicking arse. Would love to have seen it!

[@janregenda5573]

Please, let this be the sequel!

[@root13pie]

It would be time to summon Tulkas back to work.

[@dirkdiggler5581]

It would be like a true adult version of the whole story. Much darker and many more big characters dying. And maybe not even having an happy end. Or a very bitter one. Anyhow it would make a amazing story

[@jfinester]

The Balrog recognizes Gandalf as a fellow Maia, and says, “Olórin? Is that you?” “Jerry?” says Gandalf. “Long time no see, dude! You still got some of that wine?” “You betcha!” replies the Balrog. “I’ll be right back!” He dashes back down the corridor and returns with a case of very old bottles full of very old wine. Everybody has some, and soon they all break out in song (the Balrog extremely off-key). 🎶Jeremiah was a Balrog He was a good friend of mine I never understood a single word he said But I helped him drink his wine And he always had some mighty fine wine🎵 (with apologies to Hoyt Axton and Three Dog Night)

[@VaderPopsVicodin10]

2:20 Picturing Boromir, or just another Man even, standing there before a Balrog just frantically blowing a horn at the it like it's a weapon, just sounds hilarious to me! ___ "Why. Won't. This. Thing. _Work?!_ (blows horn at the Balrog) ..Go on! Shoo! Git!" (blows horn again, Balrog just keeps coming) "Gah! (again blows horn at Balrog...nothing.) ..stupid thing!" (throws it away)

[@themostselfishman]

Chills. I love all of your videos but the depth you can go into with these branching points, thanks to your mastery of the lore, is breathtaking.

[@Steckdose_]

Honestly I think if a Balrog would become the true second coming of Morgoth, that's the point in which the Valar would start to take a more active approach once more. At least the ones like Orome, Tulkas and Ulmo which all already hated the first dark lord, but probably even Manwhe as that would truly be the end of Illuvatars children outside of Valinor.

[@untruelie2640]

Probably, even though that would result in yet another catastrophic damage to Arda, like all the times before when the Valar directly intervened with force - which they hoped to avoid this time by sending the Istári. But if they indeed intervene themselves, there is no doubt that they would defeat the Balrog - not even Morgoth himself with all his Barogs and countless more Orcs was able to resist their full power.

[@joshuahogan3475]

​@@untruelie2640 Assuming Eru would allow them to directly intervene then they wouldn't even need their full strength. The combined forces and strength of all the Valar were sent against Morgoth because he was also a Valar and the strongest of them. They needed that strength to guarantee a victory. Against a single Balrog, even bolstered by the service of the fallen Saruman and the ring, only a couple of Valar would be needed. Ulmo and Tulkas would muster the forces of the Elves of Valinor and probably a number of Maia aligned with them. That would overwhelm the Balrog and its forces while hopefully minimizing the destruction done to Middle Earth. It still wouldn't be fun for the free folk but hopefully there would be a land left after the war.

[@Sleepy.Time.]

Im not sure, Melkor was more powerful than the other Valor (in his prime) and was orders of magnitude more powerful than any Maiar

[@untruelie2640]

@@Sleepy.Time. The Valar defeated him twice though. Once after the awakening of the elves when they destroyed Utumno and captured him and once in the War of Wrath. (He became more and more "earth-bound" as his power was distributed between his servants)

[@untruelie2640]

@@joshuahogan3475 There surely would be some land left, but when the literal powers of the world fight, the world itself is damaged.

[@thomasrichardson7543]

I'll tell you, we wouldn't know because we'd all die in a fiery hell scape of utter horror.

[@dirkdiggler5581]

What if we hide in the mountain the balrog came from. Sure he won’t return there soon 😅

[@kylebryant8613]

@@dirkdiggler5581 Durin's Bane: "Forgot my reading glasses"...... "Oh, visitors?😈 "🔥🔥☠

[@theironarmada1308]

He would not only have the ‘One Ring’ but also Gandalfs. The ring of fire, one of the three rings given to the elf’s

[@BazzFreeman]

I can imagine a scnario of total chaos. Bilbo gets the ring. Sauron becomes aware of it, sends the 9 out. Bilbo gives the ring to Frodo before the 9 arrive. Frodo leaves for Imladris with the 9 confused and having to start again until Frodo uses the ring. Frodo arrives at Imladris, gives the ring to Gandalf, who leaves for Rohan. The 9 have to start again until Gandalf uses the ring. and so on and so forth with each successive ringbearer being chased by the 9 all over the world.

[@jaysgamingcorner8539]

Here's a What If for you: What if Boromir didn't die? How would the story change, if it changed, with his survival? The What If is a great concept, keep up the awesome work

[@begoodjohnny1866]

There's an old LOTR video game where you can save Boromir, and he's a boss

[@Epic_Kingdom]

Next video, what if a troll got the ring. 😄

[@janregenda5573]

What a troll you are! 😅

[@samtjman]

April 1st video gold right here!

[@Broockle]

smhw I doubt they'd have it for long 😅

[@shinyespeon3995]

He would create an army vast enough to spam every KZbin video, Reddit thread, and news comment section with "FIRST!" comments

[@Broockle]

@@shinyespeon3995 😱

[@richpeltier9519]

I'll admit I was only mildly intrigued by the idea, but as soon as you hypothesized that they'd head straight to the East Gate of Moria... I freaked! NOOOOO!!! This was a great concept, thanks for sharing! 🤘🧙‍♂🤘

[@RKroese]

1:46 THAT is how the Balrog is in the books! Absolutely AWESOME!

[@nathynorthy6916]

It's not that Galadriel's ring would be "no match for the One Ring" wielded by a balrog - she wouldn't have been able to use it at all, because the balrog would have been able to read her thoughts. This is why the guardians of the three elven rings took them off the moment Sauron first put on the One Ring. I also doubt that Denethor would have any idea from using the palantír that a balrog had seized the One Ring, although he would probably have seen Sauron massing his armies and something happening in Lorien. So, this idea of Rohan and Gondor sending an army to attack the combined forces of the balrog, Saruman and Sauron doesn't make much sense. It's more likely that Denethor would have mustered his forces and prepared for some kind of attack from the forces of darkness. And it wouldn't have been so easy for a Nazgûl-led army to sack Minas Tirith, not just because Gondor would have had more time to prepare for such an assault, but also because Mordor's forces had been depleted and deflected away from Gondor by having to confront the balrog's army. This whole Wormtongue manipulating Théoden to send a message to Minas Tirith blah blah thing doesn't make any sense and wouldn't have happened, while there wouldn't have been an army at Minas Morgul ready to attack Minas Tirith, because they'd all gone to The Wold. It would make much more sense for the huge balrog-led army on The Wold to just attack Gondor or Rohan directly rather than going on a long and pointless excursion to Rivendell, from which Elrond and all the other elves would have fled by the time it got there.

[@itsatrap1017]

Wouldn’t the Ring do anything it can to return to its master and creator, Sauron? A part of Sauron’s life force is in the Ring, so while the Balrog would want to keep it for himself if nothing else was in his way, the Ring would intrude on his immediate greed to return itself to Sauron, for the Balrog’s “own good.”

[@Enerdhil]

Yes. In fact, the most likely scenario is the Ring falls off the Balrog's finger, he loses it, and returns to Moria in disgust.🤣😆😂

[@Kjf365]

​@@EnerdhilIf anything, I would say he Balrog keeps the ring until the face-to-face with Sauron the video proposes, then the ring slips off its finger and he gets it. Boom, power restored and Sauron has a Balrog to command in his armies. Assuming he doesn't kill it for treachery or something.

[@thegamingpigeon3216]

I think we also have to take into account that the Balrog would not only have been in possession of The One Ring, but likely Narya and Nenya as well, adding even more to his power. He would've been extremely powerful and I personally don't see any except from Sauron himself posing a serious challenge. I actually really think of all the beings residing in Middle-Earth at the time, Durin's Bane acquiring The One Ring may have been the worst case scenario, even compared to Sauron. Think about it. Sauron wanted control. He wanted subjugation. He wanted to bring everyone under him and rule with an iron fist. Morgoth, and by extension the balrog's, wanted nothing but destruction and darkness and a remade Arda. A successful Sauron can, in time, be toppled thru revolt and revolution. You can't revolt against non-existence and wanton death and destruction. I also do not see a situation where Durin's Bane joins forces with Sauron simply because of the fact that, at least to me, it's clear that Sauron was aware of its existence and chose not to make contact. Thru stories, it was somewhat common knowledge among the elves what sacked Moria. Saruman knew. Gandalf knew. I really don't see a scenario in which Sauron was completely oblivious to the fact that there was a balrog dwelling in Moria. I don't think he tried to establish relations with it simply because he saw it as a threat to his power. As for Durin's Bane, I can't say for certain if it knew that Sauron endured or what had taken place outside of Moria, or if it really cared at all. It seemed content to remain hidden in its slumber until called upon by Morgoth, or until the end of days.

[@DaRealNeithan]

Exactly, Durin's Bane getting hold of the Ring would be amongst the greatest nightmares of Sauron I guess, a being as ancient and evil as himself, already corrupted and pure evil, the "temptation" of the Ring not being a problem but something the Balrog would welcome and embrace. I guess it would be the only being besides Sauron to make full use of the power of the Ring. And as you pointed out, their goals would not really align, and Sauron even "avoided" the Balrog already before, likely unsure if he could "control" it. If Sauron got the Ring, the Balrog would surely be one of his prime targets to get under his control, but without it, or even being in posession of the Balrog, Sauron would not dare to engage it.

[@Albtraum_TDDC]

@@DaRealNeithan Balrog and the Ring would be like a meme with Anakin and Padme: - You'll take over the Earth and rule it , right? Right?

[@AManWithASmallVoice]

I think you've done an outstanding job here, as always. One thought: do you think the Balrog would also take the elven ring of fire from Gandalf in addition to the one ring after defeating him in Khazad Dum?

[@StuckCentrist]

Most of Tolkien's immortals do things over long timeframes. I think the balrog would have set up shop somewhere, perhaps even staying in Moria and biding his time, building his plans.

[@turdiousmcfurgeson1570]

Dude, the way you described the fellowship getting run thru got my heart racing. Great theory stuff man, keep it up 👍 it’s just crazy enough to be hella entertaining

[@carson11100]

A potentially great What If would be if Morgoth escaped the void earlier and Sauron had just reclaimed his ring….. would he submit to Morgoth again or challenge his former master for domination over Middle Earth?

[@j-dmachado4349]

I think Sauron would submit to Morgoth pretty quickly, even with his Ring back. That might have been his ultimate goal after the conquest of Middle-earth, to dominate the land while waiting for his master to return. Sauron’s words to Ar-Pharazoan during Ankallabêth, encouraging the king to the worship of Melkor (and not to Sauron himself), seem to indicate this pretty strongly to me

[@Destroyer94100]

Even with the ring Sauron is not even close to Morgoths power so yeah he would ultimately submit.

[@carson11100]

@@Destroyer94100 Yup. No disagreements there. Sauron poured the majority of his power into his ring while Morgoth’s ring is Middle Earth itself. Be one hell of a fight though.

[@--...-.-.-...-]

Most likely. And then Morgoth, being the greedy drama queen that he is, would claim the Ring for himself, since he's probably weakened from his last encounter with the Valar. Then, he would seek out the two Silmarillions which are left on Arda (the one at the bottom of the sea and the one deep inside the Earth's magma) and challenge the Valar and Eru again.

[@futuza]

@@--...-.-.-...- I think Morgoth would consider Sauron's ringcraft an inferior weak invention, he wouldn't care about the ring, he'd either destroy it or have it melted down to be remade with his own essence. If he DID try to claim the ring for himself, that might actually lead to his undoing as he'd essentially be submitting himself to Sauron's influence through the ring and with enough time he might be able to eventually overcome Morgoth. I think Morgoth would be far too clever and knowledgeable about ringcraft to ever be caught with that kind of guile though, he'd immediately perceive the flaw of doing that and reject or remake the ring (or more than likely try to remake the Iron Crown - with the remaining Silmarillion and perhaps then use the same sort of craft to put his essence into that).

[@DanSommerfield]

Really cool! Now, for a what-if, how about a positive one? What if Feanor said "yes" instead of "no" when asked to break the Silmarils to restore the trees? Even though the Silmarils were already in Morgoth's possesion at this point, I expect this would have resulted in a much earlier War of Wrath, led by Feanor and the Noldor with full support and aid from the Valar, resulting in a much quicker defeat for Morgoth.

[@bearded_TTV]

I really enjoy this, its like watching a what if movie. You put in a lot of time for this and its awesome!

[@egooidios5061]

What I would imagine if the Balrog ever managed to get close to getting hold the one ring, is Iluvatar appearing from nowhere and with a strike of one of the Eagle's feathers, erasing the flame and the Balrog itself like it was just smoke, and the ring dropping on the floor under its weight. Offcourse that would not be any subtle at all but heck....

[@futuza]

Illuvatar doesn't really ever directly interfere, he prefers to empower his creations with the tools they need to overcome evil of their own will and with their own power. To interfere would spoil his own purpose and foil his plan for his Children.

[@antoniskoutsoukos9574]

In my headcannon, Durin's Bane was aware of the Ring's existence and presence, and the attack on the Fellowship was his second attempt to claim it, the first being the attack on Isildur in the Gladden Fields, which was the reason the Ring chose to be lost, rather than found by an orc loyal to a different master.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Well em if you read Unfinished Tales it becomes clear that the orcs who attacked Isildur followed Sauron and also why they did it

[@MarkRiker]

Balrog could also take Gandalf's ring.

[@valritz1489]

It's a truly harrowing thought to think about being Elrond, seeing the fires come up over the hills surrounding Rivendell, and realize that this must have been what the sky looked like over Gondolin before the end. With the One and two of the Three in the hands of Durin's Bane, the Witch-King in Minas Tirith, and Saruman in Orthanc, I don't think Mirkwood, Dale, and Erebor can do this thing on their own. Maybe the Hail Mary play is sending Gandalf and a party of emissaries out to seek help among the Easterlings and Haradrim.

[@cd-wp3dx]

5:41 "His only option is to come forth from Mordor personally with a show of force" My understanding is that once Sauron was slain, he could not physically manifest himself - as long as the ring survived, his 'soul' (insert appropriate Tolkien term here) continued to exist and he could influence things and do things like command the Nazgul . Comments?

[@meduzarbuz7605]

Yeah the whole story is explained as if sauron has a physical form which is super weird

[@mxev9626]

​@@meduzarbuz7605 he does though. Sauron personality interrogated Gorlum and the latter says that the former has only four fingers on the hand, when Frodo talks about Ilsidur cutting Sauron's finger off together with the ring

[@DoddyIshamel]

How could Gollum see he was missing his finger? Unless you think it was a detail in some fake out interrogation for Gollums benefit?

[@mxev9626]

@@DoddyIshamel I'm pretty sure Gollum had a very clear view of the hands that held pliers, a piece of red hot iron and whatever other instruments of persuasion Sauron was using

[@DoddyIshamel]

@mxev9626 that's my point, I was replying to the original comment which implied Sauron was not physically present.

[@Mongelli88]

I really wish Tokien was alive to watch such good and well informed theories.

[@34Xboxaddict]

I think this is, despite it being extremely unlikely, one of the more interesting what if's regarding the One Ring

[@moviefanatic22]

There's 2 theories I'd like to see you eventually create! I've already seen a couple videos on these two topics I have in mind, but I'd like to hear your input and thoughts on "what if"! 1) "What if" Boromir got the ring? 2) "What if" Thorin Oakenshield survived the Battle of the Five Armies I'd love to hear what you could come up with on both of those scenario's! I love all this stuff, keep up the good work 👍😉

[@nigeldepledge3790]

There's one thing missing from this : the plans of Eru Iluvatar. In Eru's vision and theme in the Music, every deviation created by Melkor came back into harmony. Thus, we see that Bilbo's and Frodo's pity of Gollum allows Gollum to become the instrument of the One's destruction.

[@shadowdugify]

I can imagine Tolkien being so happy that people are so into his world that they are making up this kind of stuff

[@cosmicdarkman8821]

WHY assume that the Balrog can kill Sauron? You're massively underestimating the Dark Lord Sauron. He was said to be the STRONGEST after Morgoth Himself.

[@punkywozza4330]

If a Balrog got hold of the one ring.... He would become the End of level boss to end all the end level bosses you've ever had to fight anywhere at anytime. I mean like it would be worse than the worse possible scenario. Bascially it would be bad.

[@Mortal-Knite]

Ah yes, "You go to Brazil" kind've Boss

[@daarom3472]

Sauron is significantly more powerful than a regular Balrog. Maybe Gothmog could've defeated him.

[@Seven_Leaf]

Morgoth coming back would be wayyy worse.

[@kevinbergman3784]

post game super boss

[@Jaggaraz218]

It would still seem weird for a maia with a ring made by a maia be more of a threat than Morgoth, who can occasionally temporarily be beaten by first age heroes

[@TarMody]

The One Ring is a tool that works according to the intention of the wielder to use it and allows him to develop the natural abilities he brings from existence. In line with this general rule, the answer to the question of what would happen if the Balrog known as Durin's Bane had the One Ring varies depending on the motivation of that Balrog. Do we know this, no. However, the fact that they deviated from Melkor's will shows that they generally have a motivation around Melkor's nihilistic philosophy. This means possible unconscious and instinctive destruction. It is unclear whether they have a personal motivation like Sauron. Therefore, it cannot be determined precisely and clearly what kind of character they will turn into when they have the One Ring or whether they will act with a purpose like Sauron's. Because we do not have enough information at this point. I don't expect Sauron and the Balrog to clash in this scenario. Because if the Balrog dominates the One Ring, the situation for Sauron is equivalent to the destruction of the One Ring. In that moment, Sauron is reduced to an ineffective state of mind.

[@SolusVir]

The Ring is not a mere tool. It has a will of its own. And Melkor is not a nihilist. He is a passionate creator for whom things very much matter. His sin was to create in a mode alien to Eru's will, being himself excessively willful. He became destructive of the works of the other Ainur only out of bitterness and pride, not by dint of a nihilistic philosophy. I suppose nihilism could be a misconception of his desire to unmake the product of the Ainulindale--but only to wipe the slate clean and remake it in accordance with his own "discordant" themes.

[@user-bt1pm7wo7o]

will you make a video about what if Faramir went to Rivendell instead of Boromir.

[@themostselfishman]

ohhhhh, good one!

[@HeavyMetalGamingHD]

I think faramir was mentally stronger than boromir, so he would be so tempted by the ring. he wouldn't try to take the ring from frodo. Boromir trying to take the ring from frodo made frodo decide to leave the rest of the fellowship and to not go to minas tirith. So in this alternative scenario frodo might end up in minas tirith with the whole fellowship. And without the 3 hunters, gandalf and the attack of the ends rohan would have lost the war against saruman.

[@feverkane]

The balrogs refused fielty to Sauron without any having the one ring. I dont see the balrog being even slightly tempted to submit once it had it. Amazing vid. Ive always found the concept of morgoth coming back for a third shot at the title very appealing. And weather sauron would submit to, ir fight his former master, taking into account Morgoths diminished power as the silmarillion went on. Keep it up bro.

[@grandmoffporkins]

Lots of thoughts, but most of all: I think half the reason your theories are so compelling is that Tolkien established such clear characters and motivations and powers. Makes it more fun to play what if.

[@ozmozis6073]

I would like to conjecture that Sauron, a Maiar, placed a lock on his One Ring; preventing any other Maiar from taking or being empowered by his One Ring. This is why Gandalf when approaching the One Ring, recoiled when it lay for the taking by Bilbo and when offered it by Frodo. Maiars and above are the only ones capable of controlling the One Ring and Sauron would lock them out of his soul; preventing them from assuming power over him. As for men, elves and dwarfs, his soul power in the One Ring would overpower them eventually. Hobbits the same, over a longer span of time.

[@Aeros802]

Highly doubtful, as there were no other Maiar in ME other then Sauron and the Balrog when he forged the one ring. Whether he knew about the Balrogs existence before its reawakening is not clear. I don't think he would use needless magic and efforts to put such a long on it.

[@SoMuchFacepalm]

I got the impression that he recoiled because he sensed Sauron. He might not have known _why_ that was, but he wasn't going to find out the hard way.

[@adorp]

9f course there was a protection. A part of Sauron's soul was in the ring. Mastering it is like a constant battle with Sauron. The ring answers only to Sauron. Gandalf in the books claimed that of all the beings in Middle-earth, he alone could make it his if he tried, although it would still corrupt him.

[@Aeros802]

@@adorp Sauron without the ring is nonetheless in a weakened state. Being in a constant battle over yielding the one ring despite it really answering to Sauron, would probably be doable for any of the 5 wizards in ME. The Ring also had no effect on Tom Bombadil and it seemed as if the force behind the one Ring was easily and effortlessly subdued by Bombadil. For all we know, his wife would probably have done the same.

[@adorp]

@@Aeros802 The ring had no effect on Bombadil, but Bombadil had no effect on the ring either. He is detached from the world. That is why he is immune. If he leaves his self-imposed boundary and attempts to seek more, he will likely become seduced by Sauron very easily. About the five wizards, two were gone, one was too busy with birds are trees, another was busy playing game of towers. Saruman did assist in the assault on Goldur... Eventually... But I doubt he would have, if not persuaded by Gandalf.

[@thebeastjs]

What if: Bombur got the one ring!

[@LarsonPetty]

He'd trade it for a double cheeseburger combo meal.

[@letoatreides5165]

He's eat it repeatedly, thereby neutralizing it's effects permanently

[@LordTelperion]

I would think since Denethor was long preparing for the invasion, and since the costal attacks weren't happening, Gondor's southern forces would have already been at the City, having not been engaged and distracted in the first place.

[@mkaleborn]

Ah, what a very cool way to end the 'what if'! I can practically picture the shadowy figure slowly emerging from the darkness of Moria. Dressed in a ragged, burned and torn grey cloak. Stepping in to the light the cloak of the Grey falls to the ground, revealing the pristine cloak of the White, and Gandalf looking into the distance. "Frodo, Aragorn, all my dear friends. I failed you and I am truly sorry." Holding Narya in his open palm now, he slowly clenches his fingers around it. "I cannot -- no I SHALL NOT -- fail you again". He slips the Ring of Fire in to a pocket of his new cloak, and slowly walks down from the sundered Eastern Gate towards an unknown future. A future of struggle and little hope...but not hopeless. Not yet....

[@gabsis11]

I feel like Elrond would have foreseen something, after Galadriel’s passing. He most likely would have abandoned Rivendell long ago with the elves and head towards the Grey Havens and set sail to the Undying Lands.

[@z3ra]

Wouldnt the Valar just smite the Balrog as soon as he gets into the sunlight? It is still the remainings of Morgoth . Thought the Balrog remained in Moria all those years to hide from the Valar

[@SpawnBuster]

One of the theories about why Durin's Bane didn't leave Moria to ally with Sauron is because it was so traumatized by the War of Desolation and how the Valar almost completely wiped out the forces of Morgoth that it refused to step into the light again.

[@Destroyer94100]

It’s funny you mention this because in the movies Gandalf does use a sword that gets hit by literal lightning to smite the Balrog. I wonder if Gandalf summons this lightning himself or if this is a nod at the Valar or maybe even Eru himself lending aid.

[@futuza]

This. I think also if it tried to take the ring, Sauron would probably try to spook it and manipulate it with this very weakness, quietly whispering to it about how the Valar were going to come and get it, until he could make the Balrog submit or give into despair.

[@AdamEornom]

I really enjoyed the video, especially Saruman's win-win scenario and Balrog's refusal to submit, but I have a question for the scene immediately after: Even with the One Ring, could Durin's Bane simply make Sauron go "poof"? The visuals I picture are great on their own, just wanted to know how plausible that sounds.

[@Albtraum_TDDC]

it's a bit strange to visualize the Balrog hold Sauron and burning him like that, when Sauron did a similar thing to Gil-Galad. I think Sauron's body was pretty similar to a Balrog at this point, black and hot, shadow and flame.

[@TheBalefire]

I think it's plausible, given that without the One Ring, Sauron is just a shadow of his former power, while the Balrog is undiminished, and even amplified by the Ring. If Sauron let the Balrog get into arm's reach, the fight would end before anyone else could intervene.

[@undead_corsair]

Gandalf coming back at the end as the last hope. He's like the nemesis of Durin's Bane.

[@fredmiller906]

What a great what if! Let’s be real here though. The Valar would sail in to save the day like before. What a sight to see that would be though right :)

[@wyrmboi6172]

Durin’s Bane: Has the One Ring, two Elven Rings, all of the Nine Nazgûl, the aid of a rouge Istari, and the combined forces of Mordor, Moria, and Isengard Glorfindel chilling in Imladris: “Finally, a worthy opponent”.

[@camerongunn7906]

Wow! You just did more storytelling in this video than Hollywood has done in years. Good work!

[@alannash2778]

Very interesting! I feel like the Nazgûl would submit to the Balrog immediately once he became the ring-bearer. This is precedented in the books when they talk to Saruman and he essentially says 'If I had what you are looking for, I would be your master." The Ringwraith's would bring with them all of Sauron's forces which would put Sauron, who can't take a physical form yet, in an uncomfortable spectator position. Not wanting to serve the balrog, he would likely be manipulating things as best he can so that any of the balrog's ambitions are thwarted. I can totally see Saruman feigning support for Durin's bane but all the while also conspiring against the balrog. In any case, I completely agree that nothing good is going to come from a balrog wielding the one ring. The forces of good would likely be destroyed one-by-one until Sauron or Saruman did something to trip up Durin's Bane.

[@karlnordenstorm8816]

He had physical form. Gollum saw his hand missing a finger.

[@JetfireWithy]

In PART 2 what I'd like to see is while the Balrog is in orthanc. The witch king is victorious in the seige of Minas Tirith (Part 1). The witch king then meets the Balrog some time later. After pledging it's allegiance to the Balrog, it awards the Witch King Nenya, or the Ring of fire taken from a perished Galadriel or Gandalf. Thus the Balrog gives the ring to witch king increasing his power with the rank of new Chief Lieutenant of middle earth along with Sarumon as advisor (Chief Lieutenant was Sauron's rank in the first age) If any assault beyond Middle earth was going to happen the witch king would be needed in my opinion.

[@ArtemisSilent]

I think Sauron is too clever to go personally to see the balrog. Instead, he would have felt the ring possesed by the balrog and acted quicker ensuring Saruman´s loyalty (maybe killing him and taking his orks) and sending messengers to the north to unite a force strong enough to defeat the balrog.

[@nathanphillips2395]

The balrog would essentially have the power of 2 saurons with the ring, and the actual mentality and goals of melkor. Its highly likely the dark forces left over from the first age would follow the balrog, not sauron. While sauron was one of melkors greatest LTs, his power was deception and basically fighting dirty. He wasnt respected or even well known among melkors forces, while the balrogs were their greatest warriors. They were on the front line in nearly every single conflict.

[@googleaccount8865]

What if YOU got the One Ring? 🤔

[@hebl47]

My guess is he would try to use it for good - spreading the love and knowledge of Middle Earth to everyone in the world. But everyone would become so obsessed with Middle Earth that noone would have time to do anything else. Hence civilization would grind to a halt.

[@Moedermariia]

This one was insane, love it!!! What If Bill the Pony got the ring😙

[@ddawis]

Then Bill Ferny would be in deep, deep trouble.

[@AMRosa10]

I think what this, and many of the alternate theories forget is that Eru always had a plan. The end was never going to be that the forces of Darkness would prevail. The Age of Men was always inevitable. On a human time scale, it may have appeared that Eru had forsaken Arda, but that wasn't the case. Eru was ever present, always in the nature of things, always leading fate to its inevitable conclusion. However, Eru had to bring about the Age of Men in such a way as to forge Men into strong stewards, truly worthy of inheriting Arda. Eru allowed Morgoth and Sauron to shape the character and mettle of Men through adversity, but was never going to let Morgoth or Sauron succeed in the end. If, in the end, the Men did not rise to the challenge, if they showed they were not worthy to inherit Arda, then Eru would have brought about the Final Battle. Arda would have been destroy, but so would the Darkness, clearing the way for Eru to bring about his true vision. So, any hypothetical that results in darkness winning doesn't fully appreciate Tolkien's view of what Eru's plan truly was.

[@waltlock8805]

The Balrog is the secret optional boss, much more powerful than the story boss, that just hangs out in his own place.

[@Kjf365]

No wonder Gandalf spent so long fighting it. He came underleveled and without a party for backup. Smh.

[@vojtastruhar8950]

I love that the Balrog would refuse to hand over the Ring at the very last moment! It's true that his and Sauron's plans for the fate of the Middle Earth are very different. Great job!

[@nerdwatch1017]

What if Nerd of the rings was the main man regarding building out a TCU Tolkien Cinematic Universe. What age would he start in what characters both good and bad would he give us. As a fan I’d love to see a mini series about the children of Hurin & Beren and Luthien. 2 shows about them. Then a amazing Trilogy with when Melkhor first landed on Arda aka earth and took over. With each movie coming out every 2 - 3 years with a series between movies 1-2/2-3 just as extra flesh out time between the movies to get as much of the full story from Tolkien as possible. Also it would be kinda funny to see how Sauron being the big bad in 2 trilogies to being so much less then the true dark lord Morgoth

[@ianwritespoems]

Would the Nazgûl have continued to serve Sauron once the Balrog had the ring? They are Ringwraiths after all. Wouldn’t the Balrog, a Maiar like Sauron, control the Nazgûl once he controls the ring?

[@plebisMaximus]

They're only really loyal to Sauron because he's the lord of the ring, if someone else wielded it as intended, they could probably control them just off that. Even Frodo could've possibly controlled them, he just didn't use the ring.

[@--...-.-.-...-]

They didn't serve Frodo when he had it, so, my guess is that yes, they would still serve Sauron.

[@--...-.-.-...-]

​@@plebisMaximusNo, no one can really wield the Ring except Sauron. All it does for everyone else is corrupt them, prolongue their life and transport them to the unseen realm when worn. Only Sauron knows all of the One Ring's secrets and only he can fully control it.

[@plebisMaximus]

@@--...-.-.-...- Is that said directly anywhere? The way I understood it is it's a ring made to control other beings, that's it's primary and strongest power. If nobody but Sauron could use that power, then why would Galadriel and Gandalf be afraid of it wielding power through them? It's not like an immortal being could have their life extended, nor would Gandalf, a Maia like Sauron, be affected by the transport to the unseen realm he already half exists in. Same thing for Galadriel who's been to Valinor and therefore has a foot in the unseen realm herself. Instead, the only real explanation for their fear would be that they'd be able to use it to more or less the extent of its power, which includes the main feature of controlling the other rings of power and through them the Nazgul. Of course, they're extremely powerful in their own right, whether Frodo could feasibly do it if he really tried can be debated, but I don't think it would be impossible, after all, Boromir suggested letting the men of Gondor use it and that was shot down because it's too dangerous, not because it would be impossible. You're probably right Sauron would be the best at harnessing its power, he did make it and part of what gives it power is the piece of himself inside it, but I don't think there's anything in the source material that suggests he's the only one who could use the more alluring powers it holds.

[@--...-.-.-...-]

@@plebisMaximus I believe it was Gandalf sho said that 'There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power.'

[@phil.clarke]

The Moria Balrog attacks Rivendell - and Glorfindel becomes the first and only person to slay two Balrogs! Of course, Glorfindel dies too - again - and his spirit goes off to the Halls of Mandos. Maybe Bilbo finds his old ring in the ruins of Rivendell??

[@Jacob-W-5570]

this is the best follow up for the scenario the Nerds have discribed. This comment needs more likes people.

[@jamesbargar4469]

As much as I love these What-If videos about someone else taking the one ring, they all seem to forget one thing: the ring itself wants to go back to Sauron. No act by the ring would destroy its former master. If Durin’s Bane went face-to-face with Sauron, the one ring would have convinced the Balrog that it was a good idea to turn the ring over, it would not have planted an idea in the balrog’s mind that Sauron was not worthy.

[@BudTezzy2345]

There's only one ending to this twist of lore. After destroying Rivendell the Balrog then turns eastward to gather more strength before eventually marching across the Helacraxe passage to take on the Valar. He goes to summon the wights of the Burrow Downs (near the Old Forrest). Suddenly he here's a strange sound. What is it? A...song?? (approaching song) "Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo! By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow, By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us! Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!" - THE END (of the Super Balrog that is...)