What if the Byzantine Empire never fell?

[@goldensilver1937]

Ah, yes competent italy

[@iljoker4697]

the army was, the generals were almost all incompetent.

[@idk-cj8mn]

Italy if Germany kept their word and waited 5 years to start the war:

[@dziosdzynes7663]

italy is germanic, greece is what little remains of rome.

[@samuelezonch9823]

​@@dziosdzynes7663bullshit

[@alejodiaz9625]

The most useless allied troops in the Spanish Civil War

[@TheGhostrix09]

the video is 14:53 minutes long which funnily enough is also the year that byzantium fell

[@happinessparty6061]

No way....

[@kostaslazos-z6b]

@@TheGhostrix09 What the...?How did you...?Well nice observation my friend!

[@ruin1619]

🤣🤣🤣

[@CJ8pl]

I think Armenians wouldn’t revolt simply because of how they weren’t discriminated against, even some emperors were Armenian

[@Zartzurt-b5x]

Apostolic church were heretics according to eastern romans If I remember right, they even conquered Armenian kingdom decades before seljuks which made things easier for seljuks to invade through majority Armenian lands.

[@nicolasinostrozabeltran5318]

Ethnic Armenians but Orthodox not Armenian Apostolic

[@CJ8pl]

@@nicolasinostrozabeltran5318 I don’t think that matters. Then again, I can’t say how much of a difference there is there.

[@ozan7427]

Armenians would revolt. Ottomans literally named them as loyalest people then france revolution happened and they rebelled. Ethnicity is important for people.

[@SoghomonTehlirian1915]

@@ozan7427Armenians were second class citizens in the Ottoman empire. Abdul Hamid massacres them and didn’t want to give them equal rights. After The Young Turks took power and did genocide. Historians argue that the mass confiscation of Armenian properties was an important factor in forming the economic basis of the Turkish Republic while endowing the Turkish economy with capital. The appropriation led to the formation of a new Turkish bourgeoisie and middle class.

[@seangallagher5695]

The Byzantines would not become a republic but would simply become a more parliamentary monarchy like the UK

[@xano2921]

👆🏻 and this is because this guy said it

[@AugustaOgilvy]

I agree

[@thinkwithaportal]

Kingdom of Byzantium, doesn't sound too bad.

[@S.P.Q.Rrespublicas]

@@thinkwithaportalagreed, but ain’t no way the Roman state is gonna have a king

[@NickAndriadze]

But then again, a republic is a very Roman thing to do.

[@ИгорьПак-т9б]

I’d argue that at least Bulgaria would’ve been hellenised over the many centuries of Eastern Roman control and would’ve stayed within the state, perhaps as an autonomy.

[@solo_leo4454]

Lol it’s 1453 long

[@Historicalsidequests]

Glad someone noticed haha

[@sfsspearheadorbital5195]

Oh damn it is💀💀

[@jasonpalacios1363]

@@Historicalsidequests Actually if the ERE lasted longer than 1453, the US would have never existed because the European colonization wouldn't have existed because remember that it was the Fall of Constantinople was the reason why Western Europe did colonization due to the fact the Ottoman Empire expected the Portuguese to pay a tax to cross the Silk Road. Also the Spanish Reconquista would have been stalled a little longer, the Spanish Inquisition wouldn't existed and the Renaissance wouldn't happened either.

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@jasonpalacios1363 To quote another comment of mine where someone said the same thing you said: "I actually wanted to include that in the video! But upon looking it up, it seems that the ottomans never forbid trading between China and India and Europe. They just taxed it a bit, like all countries did, and the portugese and spanish wanted to find a shorter way to india to trade directly with them so to avoid all the tarrifs other countries would put on the goods. The portuguese already started exploring around africa even before the Byzantines fell. This is a common misconception in the history community."

[@weirdguylol]

Without Ottoman threat, Hungary wouldn't fall under Austrian rule

[@Baba_Bahebal]

there is now the byzantine threat so they still could

[@collaborisgaming2190]

@@Baba_Bahebal Enjoy the massive History lesson, it's our Heritage, Seize the Means of Remembrance. the idea of the Byzantines copying Ottoman Geo-strategy is Retarded, Nationalism would probably inspire a Grand Roman Reconquest, especially if it mimics the Prophecy of Daniel's Clay mortaring of the Fragments which often is taken to represent Rome. A Roman or Byzantine Union like a Nationalist Internationale would form with Nations becoming States inside the Union with a Constantinople or Roman lead akin to Moscow (closer to the US's structure of Organization, pre-Lincoln when he wrote secession out as a Right of the States butthurt by the Civil War). not totally Soviet, but definitely Anti-Muslim. I could see this Roman Union try to Reunify all Germanic lands from the Rhine to Vistula as they once again all everyone east Germanic until far East Poland since that's the Archeological Origin of the Slavs. Scandinavia could be Remade in this Image or as an Ally form an Ultra Kalmar Union as Varengia (after the Varengian Guard) to serve as a Collab Government over Scandinavia, if not also over Germania. the Danes and Romans were Historical Allies in the Germania Campaigns. A war to Wipe out the Persians in line with European Technological Supremacy would Avenge the Roman Empire. maybe a Roman British east India Company would eventually take over India with a Partition of Africa between European States being heavily Moderated as the Byzantine Union reclaims all of Africa in the name of Stopping Slavery and Islam as was Historical but Decolonization never happens but new Tribes added to the Union of Rome, Racialism was Heresy in Orthodox Theology, unlike our Enlightenment which likely wouldn't come thanks to the fact that Orthodoxy was already Enlightened and that the Enlightenment is just a 500 year circle to rediscover what the Orthodoxy already had (Enlightenment relied on forgetting everything to make it anew, that's a common theme i find in History, like Abolitionism pioneered by St. John of Chrysostom, he also wrote the Divine Liturgy, It's beautiful to Listen to, more so to participate and sing alongside it. Abolitionism of slavery was forgotten and once again the West had to Remember after killing Millions of people trying to Remember, in trying what the rest of the world was doing, we only realized Christianity had it right the first time. the KKK Literally wrote something named after the Quran called the Kloran) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloran that's how Islamic Influence entered American White Supremacy Ideology via the KKK. I'd totaly speak my mind about it beyond this filter if Cancer Culture wasn't such Cancer. Unlike in our timeline, the Aztec atrocities would've been met with more than Gunpowder. Roman Flamethrower Technology would likely never be lost, an Amazonian Diplomatic, and Armed Crusade to kill the Pagan Empires in South and Meso America would probably lead with a vastly more flexible set of Nation Constructs all of the Borders here were Colonial and the disintegration wasn't perfect, Statism is South America's worse Enemy, same for Mexico. the Corruption seeps from Belize to Panama but it's easier to solve those issues there due to not having much to entrench into. North America would be the Crown of the Roman Empire, the Natives were monotheistic, and converted rather Quickly to Christianity, the Orthodox Mission in Alaska was the only Colony in the History of the World not to commit some Mass Misgiving between Europeans and Natives, many American Saints of Orthodoxy from the Alaska Mission both European and Native would keep the Peace. If Roman Catholicism survives, the Martyrdom of Peter the Aleut by the Franciscans in California (it happened look it up) could be the sparking point for a Native Crusade against Papists everywhere who already carved out continents by the Sword and Assimilation. The Orthodox since St. Cyril and Methodius embraced conducting liturgies in the language of the People and to Translate as much as possible of the Faith to new Languages and many Liberals and Anti-colonials in theory would Support this even a Military Resolution. Manifest Destiny would never Happen the way it did, though a Disease Day could probably be made to Remember those who unknowingly spread and or died from the Columbian exchange Pandemics, somewhere more sensible than Reparations. because the Enlightenment never Develops Capitalism from Tarrifs and Industrialized Chattel Slavery to survive the US's Tarrifs against the South, Communism doesn't become an idea. the Reform would be less influential in a timeline where the Orthodox are stronger because they never needed reformation, the Roman Catholic Church was in Error in 1054. also possible that attacking orthodoxy against the Teachings of Christ, and the Fall of Eastern Rome never happening would cause the Confidence in the Papacy to not fall either. Money was a funny thing in a World needed monetization, when Religion was turning into a Franchise at the hand of Negligent Popes since clearly once Kongo Converted it's Leadership, they forgot the memo of Abolition and instead went Gung ho on Slavery. the Sooner the Papacy is destroyed or Reunites with Orthodoxy, the better the world over the Centuries could be. since Orthodoxy is united in how it expands. problem was, is that due to being on the edge of the Western World, and constantly under attack, technology would never take priority, but it would in a Byzantine Union.

[@collaborisgaming2190]

in a Hearts of Iron 4 mod called Europe 1300 i did exactly this, Bringing modern ideas back to a Roman Empire in the 1300s and Implementing it's Second Military Revolution since the Macedonian Dynasty could put the Eastern Romans on the Path to this exact timeline. If Hungary invades, Memories of 1204 could Trigger causing a Hell no Not Again Response, this can be where the Hungarians are threatened by the Byzantines. the Byzantine Union could come about as a way to subdue Hungary in one war or a series of wars. no Serbian relocation from Kosovo either to cause that modern conflict either. the Macedonian Military Revolution in the 9th Century already had at least 1 Component of the Early Modern Military Revolution, Technological Sophistication. so to meet more enemies, expanding the division to lower the need for Generals, and Monetization from trade could literally spearhead it's technological prowess, especially if it can get Central and Western European possessions. using the Great Western Schism as an Excuse to Reverse 1204 the Papacy successfully when the Roman and Avignon Papacy were causing France and the HRE to fight would but also weaken a French National Identity since that traces back to Charlamagne. Charlamagne was of Roman Imperial Lineage, he was Pre-schism, so the Orthodox could still use him as an Idol to reinspire Romanism in France. instead of using a Roman emperor to inspire a National Reckoning like Napoleon, use an anti-roman Empire and his Ties to Rome, as a reason to Re-Romanize Gaul, Frankish and Frankish influence caused the Great Schism of 1054, so it would be as adamant that the De-frankifacation of France and Western Christianity, would be like De-Nazification today. Charlamagne likely with misunderstood theology began the trend, Heresy is a slow acting Poison to got knows What, so history would be written with that in mind, the Orthodox Already do and have done so for Centuries if not since 1054 itself. I did this in a Hoi4 game set in a medieval mod. taking back the entire Empire by from 1299-1316, and literally took all of south America, Meso America and most of North America as Colonies by 1321. Ottoman use of Artillery in thier combined arms theory historically changed Europe forever, but what if the Byzantines did this with their Technological Edge to make it unparalleled. Hungary declared war first which inspired a national awakening. "Not Again" the Romans said, as their army to pyric cost lost north Macedonia to the Hungarians, the Counter offensive broke the Hungarians, and by 1311 Budapest fell. the Roman Catholic world slowly would launch thier 5th Crusade, first Austria, then Poland, Naples, the Papacy itself, the HRE, and then France, and in massive offensives with hundreds of Siege Implements being used as Artillery for feild Combat, combined with Early Fire arms replacing the Spear, and Reborn armies of Cataphracts, crippling defeat one after another would be inflicted in the world's first Total War. The Romans calling the Advance, the Rape of Europe in confessions to the mass Slaughter of enemy soldiers in battle, the Papacy Falls, the Lombards in retreat, the Alps apt to stale mate. Vienna falls early on in a tactical miracle by a single roman division and a lucky Roman General, Poland is pierced, and the Germans were put on the Run from the Teutonic Order all the way to Hamburg, the Roman Army in an act inspired by Hannibal Cross the Alps in every Direction Austria collapses, Central Germany put to the Sword, France scrambles and scores the Only Catholic Victory of the war in the Second Battle on the Catalonian Fields delaying the invasion of France for 7 months at the cost of the French Army itself, for the first time in a war, over a Million Soldiers die, mostly of Roman Catholics who were fodder when Satan used the Papal Tare and Bull as a weapon against the True Faith. Iberia refuses to join the war, owing the Reconquista to a Roman invasion of Islamic North Africa and later Grenada, the Roman Conduct against the Muslims proving good faith realizing and lobbying that for the Romans, this Crusade against the Romans who long survived the Dark Ages, that this was thier Sacred War, that Rome will be Reformed once more under Christ. orthodox forces in relation were thanks to their new Tech, haven't even lost 50,000 soldiers (yes the mod was that broken, it's called Europe 1300.). the British Isles also declared Neutrality and later as Iberia did, Advocated for Peace, but the Crusader's Coalition refused. France was invaded as Germany too just fell for the first time in 900 years since Atilla the Hun became the Scourge of Europe. Italia and Gaul restored, and parts of Hispania reconquered, the Romans turned to form the Union and invite all of their conquered peoples to it, slowly but surely, membership was ratified and the Union Born (Coin flipping and Coring). Iberia and Britain were invited for bloodless reunification. The British stood watching the Iberians, who saw the Calamity now that it was confessed by the Soldiers who cleaned up the battlefields. 1318 and the last War of Roman Reunification Began, Iberia stood to end the Reconquista as thier Feudal Masters saw the end of thier Dictates against God's people, and they took up arms to become the last Remnant of Diocletian's Economic Mistake in Western Europe (Feudalism originated from Diocletian's Fiat Economic Reforms). the Romans now testing their Greatest Military force Yet to become the Union Standard, Great Army of Rome (GAR) armed with the best and everything in Military Technology stormed into Aragonian and Castilian lands as soon as the Iberians took to the field poised to put Valencia by the Sword. in 2 weeks 400,000 Iberian soldiers were slaughtered, the Iberian Armies of Aragon, Castile and Portugal obliterated, the Surviving Crusader orders of the Papal purge surrendered wishing to serve the Romans once more to Guard Jerusalem seized from the Mamluks in 1315 between the conquest of Hungary, and the Austrian invasion of Burgenland beginning the 5th Crusade. by the Grace of God, not a single Roman died (I was trying to use encirclements to determine the size of Portugal's Army and was using only GAR divisions to make encirclements when I accidentally overran most of the Iberian Army in a general Advance only planned to be a Pin in place distraction). by the time the Roman High Command realized they brought to many soldiers for the work being done, the order was given for the GAR to advance without precaution to the Capitals of Zaragoza, Madrid, Leon, and Lisbon to end the war. with success, only 150,000 more Iberians died resisting without Siege, Walls were ground to dust was bombards, trebuchets and Catapults made an Apothecary, out of even the strongest walls (GAR Divisions had over 200 Siege Pieces, 500 at most during the invasion of West Africa totaling about 24,000 siege pieces to topple Guinean Hegemony (Trade with a Superpowered Rome had a similar effect that the Unity of China did for Asia) of West Africa as the world's strongest Military Power in 3-5 months while testing the GAR as a Standard implement). Britain realizing they had no navy in which to prevent this submitted to Rome, Scotland seeing this submitted to Rome as well. Remaining Irish tribes submitted as the Romans forced the English to pull of all of Ireland. improving things is the Great Pre-requisite for a Just War in Orthodox Christianity, that's a Must and a Post War Responsibility that wasn't reinvented until after WW2 by Secularism 1500 years after invention by St. Augustine of Hippo

[@collaborisgaming2190]

Invading Iberia (who were Stalin level paranoid and attacked me first) and using encirclements to determine the size of Portugal's Army and was using only GAR divisions to make encirclements when I accidentally overran most of the Iberian Army in a general Advance only planned to be a Pin in place distraction) about 400,000 military dead in the first 2 weeks. by the time the Roman High Command realized they brought tot many soldiers for the work being done, the order was given for the GAR to advance without precaution to the Capitals of Zaragoza, Madrid, Leon, and Lisbon to end the war. with success, only 150,000 more Iberians died resisting without Siege, Walls were ground to dust was bombards, trebuchets and Catapults made an Apothecary, out of even the strongest walls (GAR Divisions had over 200 Siege Pieces, 500 at most during the invasion of West Africa totaling about 24,000 siege pieces to topple Guinean Hegemony (Trade with a Superpowered Rome had a similar effect that the Unity of China did for Asia) of West Africa as the world's strongest Military Power in 3-5 months while testing the GAR as a Standard implement). Britain realizing they had no navy in which to prevent this submitted to Rome, Scotland seeing this submitted to Rome as well. Remaining Irish tribes submitted as the Romans forced the English to pull of all of Ireland. improving things is the Great Pre-requisite for a Just War in Orthodox Christianity, that's a Must and a Post War Responsibility that wasn't reinvented until after WW2 by Secularism 1500 years after invention by St. Augustine of Hippo By 1323 I invaded Russia up to the Duchy of Moscow (Rip Novgorod) and all of Africa while finishing colonizing South, and Meso America, I broke my Economy into being super-OP often breaking the 32-bit integer bit limit on the gauge counting my National Funding, I literally couldn't spend all of my money before going into Negative infinity thanks to how PCs work. it was by necessity to spend money and grow my Army to lower the income, or else I'd overcharge my Economy, from -infinite to +infinite every few in-game months, 20+ times an Hour running at Speed 5 (Max speed.) I was Paranoid into screwing up the Army since Hungary invaded by Surprise, and the Mongol Remnants had this mechanic called "Call the Horde" that gives them an extra Division per state, only when at war, in later Runs, I'd wipe out the White and Gold Hordes before taking out Illkanate Persia for the first time since the Muslim Conquests by 1310 if I didn't slow myself down.

[@OilRobber]

@@collaborisgaming2190 so much lore it put my brain into shock

[@kuroazrem5376]

Probably the least realistic thing of this scenario is a competent Italy in WW2.

[@Reckless-02]

so all this was prevented because a few crusaders couldn't just do their job of assisting Byzantine and instead sacked the Byzantine empire smh.

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@Reckless-02 pretty mucg

[@sachemofboston3649]

I think one thing that is never accounted for in these videos is the rise of nationalism. The empire was dominated by Greek culture and language, I wonder if it would have reformed into a Greek nation state, or alternatively if Roman would have been considered an ethnicity tied to the Greek language and orthodoxy rather than what we associate with Roman today.

[@Historicalsidequests]

I talk about the rise of nationalism in this video. And at the end, only the Greek territories remain while the Slavic and Armenian populations break(*) free.

[@mikel3359]

It is not about "rise of nationalism" it is about reality. In the Byzantine era but till modern times due to Christianity the pagan Greek ancestry was hidden. In the late modern times there is no such restrictions and we saw the things way more realistically with proofs and evidences ofcourse. So in my opinion if we talk about the main lands of byzantium - the lands of the Greek populations in southern balkans and Asia Minor - Byzantium today could be a Greek state.

[@parrotconservative]

A war like that in WW2 would end Roman Catholic dominance

[@patrickencunado4071]

Probably there is no catholicism in Philippines because there is no OTTOMAN in the trading routes

[@Hedgehogz856]

@@patrickencunado4071true, they’d probably be Muslims. Plus they wouldn’t speak English as the Americans would never colonize them after war with Spain. Actually Americans wouldn’t exist because Spain wouldn’t find us

[@isimsoyisim-fx8wu]

While all this was happening, the Turks were asleep in the rooms of their Chinese girlfriends. Some of them were playing backgammon at Cairo cafes.

[@andreiciustea]

Brother. This video and the editing style is class. Much respect and keep up the good work!

[@Historicalsidequests]

Thank you!

[@augustuscaesar7449]

It was never called "byzantine empire" it was the Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire the west gave it that name during the 1500s to delegitimise it as the Roman Empire

[@jahiert9549]

They said that but it’s just easieri to Byzantine instead of eastern Roman

[@Historicalsidequests]

I've said that at the start of the video. The reason the title is "byzantine" is because more people search about Eastern Rome under the "Byzantine Empire" name rather than the historically accurate one.

[@kostaslazos-z6b]

​@@HistoricalsidequestsIt also goes by the names Byzantio(Because of ancient king Byzantas of Megara who owned a Megarian colony in the area),Romania(not the current country and it is spelled differently in greek)and Empire of the Hellins(which seems more accurate due to the dominant language and culture). I tried to translate it in English as best as I could. I am not really sure if they used Byzantine or any other similar terms back then and I doubt if they used the term Roman since they cut themselves from Roman empire. Anyway nice thought, I really enjoyed the video!

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@kostaslazos-z6b I knew about the Romania one! I actually wanted to rename it mid video to Rhomania but I think there would have been a confusion between the two countries. The romanians called themselves that name even when the byzantines were still around, so having 2 Romanias in the modern era would have been pretty confusing. Love the fact about the origin of Byzantio tho!

[@-BlackMamba-]

well it got that name bcs there wasa the Greek city of Byzantion where constantinople got built at thus thats why they named it like that

[@emperormakmus696]

I could see the byzantines returning to their ancient roots and becoming an constitutional monarchy with an emperor that holds some power and the senate that is reinstated

[@spike_spgl]

🙌🏼

[@zaidatimash713]

Amazing video, please make more alternate history content

[@Historicalsidequests]

Thank you!

[@James-rm7sr]

It would still be called Rome at that point. Which I tend to believe during WW2 it would have demanded Italy be returned along with Carthage. At this point we can safely believe that Rome would still have claims to Italy even in 1938. It would be interesting if Constantinople would be called such or be called New Rome at this point. Germany in this picture still likely would be very much a big issue in WW2.

[@IonutPaun-lp2zq]

Excellent video. I really enjoyed it.

[@MilitaryHistoryArchives]

Nice editing , well done!

[@Theodoros_Kolokotronis]

One of the most thrilling historical novels, regarding the history and the legacy of Constantinople is “The Dark Angel” (original title Johannes Angelos), of prominent Finnish writer, Mika Waltari. Truly epic.

[@samwisegamgee8318]

We missed this ending in our timeline 😢

[@jasonpalacios1363]

The ERE could have lasted if not for the 4th Crusade in 1204, but for lasting that long, it was a miracle they lasted long as they did especially still being relevant in the year 1000 and it lasted so long that they only fell 40 years before Christopher Columbus sailed to the Caribbean. Actually the ERE lasted longer than 1453 the US would have existed because the European colonization wouldn't existed either due to the fact that the Ottoman Empire blockaded the Silk Road.

[@BurrtoDaApe]

The Eastern Roman Empire would probaly need to make ALOT of Reforms to barely survive at the battle of Constantinople. But even then, it would probaly fall at the next big event of Europes History

[@parrotconservative]

Nah I can’t really see Russia siding with Austria in the 17th century in this type of situation if the byzantines survived (but could happen)

[@lucyfaire1980]

Description Correction: The Eastern Roman Empire, also (VERY WRONGLY) referred to as The 'Byzantine Empire', there is no such thing. Greetings from Greece.

[@Nick-em3qj]

soissons france is a nice touch

[@Historicalsidequests]

Not many know about the Kingdom of Soissons ;)

[@fenrir7878]

Okay, okay, this was all serious and speculative, but i almost died when you said "The Italian Blitzkrieg." 😂😂😂

[@radored7750]

Great video

[@Historicalsidequests]

Thank you!

[@ΛιακοςΚρε]

O wes. I I an exceptional video. Keep it going....

[@ΛιακοςΚρε]

Yes

[@AugustaOgilvy]

This has inspired me to make a scenario in age of history 2

[@sfsspearheadorbital5195]

So it is a Cold war but instead of Communism vs Capitalism it is Orthodox vs Catholic and Democratic vs Imperial

[@idk-cj8mn]

Really well done. 👍🏻

[@iron2998]

blitzkrieg can't be replicated by Italy. Italy has to go though the alps which would makes the strategy of blitzkrieg impossible. Germany could do blitzkrieg because of their positioning on the European platau

[@jaylonhale5704]

Damn they unleashed the Germans😭

[@Ali-bu6lo]

The Mamluks were originally slave soldiers bought by the rulers of Egypt, not all of them were Turks, in fact one of the two Mamluk dynasties in Egypt wasn't Turkic but Circassian. So the Mamluks would still be a thing with similar strength, though the timing of their rise might change and it might even be a totally different slave-soldier dynasty that takes over Egypt.

[@georgios_5342]

Very nice video I subbed

[@collaborisgaming2190]

12:33 should have given Rome to the Byzantines. they wouldn't take this sitting down, not one whey suffered so terribly.

[@AlpinePellegrino]

If the Greeks weren't under the Ottoman yoke, their might not have been a protestant reformation. They might have instead rejoined the Orthodox church.

[@christospanagopoulos5821]

The renaissance and the democracies would come much much later than our timeline

[@Incubator859]

Althistorians really downplay how the fall of Constantinople allowed for domination of Western Europe and shaped the world for centuries to come which allowed the modern era to take place. Without Christendom in the East and with powerful Muslim Turks controlling the spice trade, thereby blockading Western Europe in international trade, Western Europe HAD to find alternative sea routes to trade with India in order to get a foothold in the spice trade. This prompted the Portuguese and then the Spanish to take risks and set out to establish/discover new trade routes to Africa all the way to India. Consequently, the Spanish took to the alternative Western route and discovered the Americas which then enriched them with gold and riches to come. It also allowed the importation of potatoes, corn and other crops which were easy to grow back into Europe and thereby allowed advances in agriculture that allowed Christians Europeans to further expand their population and numbers. Portugal in the meanwhile kickstarted the age of colonization to protect their holdings abroad from Islamic countries and destabilized the world order of international trade at that time which was dominated by muslims. This all happened due to just Constantinople falling. This was the butterfly even in history which marked the beginning of a new era in world politics. No fall of Constantinople, no modern western civilization and no modern era. The world would probably still be backwater and you won't enjoy watching this KZbin vid with a tiny screen in your hand.

[@Historicalsidequests]

This is a common misconception in the historical community. The ottomans never blocked the spice trade, they simply taxed it.(Which the Byzantines were doing too) And the Portuguese were already searching for a way to the Americas even before the Byzantine Empire fell. Edit: Portuguese were searching for a way to India*

[@Incubator859]

@@Historicalsidequests this is patently untrue. Constantinople served as a trading hub/outpost along the silkroad for goods coming from the East. Without Constantinople, no access to goods from the East for Europeans. This made it especially harder for Christian Europeans as Egypt was under the control of Mamluk Sultanate and Constantinople under the Ottoman Caliphate. It doesn't take a genius to know this underdog position was untenable, and which prompted Portugal and Spain to find new trade routes to bypass the Muslims altogether

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@Incubator859 I'm going to paste a lot of talking points from a mega thread debunking this myth, which I read when making this video, as I wanted to include an later discovery of America, but this convinced me not to do it. 1. Atlantic voyages started way before the fall of Constantinople "The Portuguese Atlantic voyages started after 1415 with conquest of Ceuta (Spanish-French expeditions to Canaries even before that). Madeira was colonized in the 1420s, Azores in 1430s. Caravels were used since 1430s and furthest point visited so far - Cape Bojador - was passed in 1434 and regular voyages beyond were being conducted afterwards. By 1450s the exploration down African coast- in actuality more slave raids - on which we have much information, brought Portuguese all the way past Senegal and Gambia rivers, to the vicinity of modern Sierra Leone. Here is a map trying to show the extent of lands already discovered by around 1450." 2. Motives recorded by Portuguese themselves for start of exploration never mention any kind of “lack” of spices "We just have to open the The Chronicle of the Discovery and Conquest of Guinea, Vol. I, on Chapter VII by Gomes Eannes de Azurara who lists the reasons (he considered) why the Prince Henry decided to explore Africa: curiosity and zeal of service to god and king, new economic opportunity (but no mention of spices, just generally opening a new market in Guinea), gauging the extent of power of Moors, and finding allies against Moors (specifically Prester John) and finally spreading Christianity. Obviously not mentioning the unavailability of spices does not mean it didn’t occur, but still, contrasting with the importance it was supposed to have i think it would feature more prominently." 3.Constantinople was actually not the most important point for the spice trade at all, as Venice (and Genoa and French and Catalan) got the vast majority of their spices in Alexandria and Beirut "It shouldn’t really be surprising when you think about it. Spice originated in India and SE Asia, and it went to Europe by ships on the sea route to Red Sea and Persian Gulf where land caravans would take them through Egypt and Syria to ports on Mediterranean.There it would be picked up by European traders and transferred by ships to rest of Europe. Constantinople would be a detour on that route, not the center point. See this Venetian routes to Alexandria and Beirut as recorded by 15th century Venetian sailor Michael of Rhodes(source) The overland routes from China to the Black Sea, and from there Europe, for which Constantinople was important, were only a part of this Asia trade, and spices would definitely not go through there. To back up these claims, let’s show the table showing Venice pepper imports in years 1394-1405, basically much before ottoman conquest, from Wake: "The Volume of European Spice Imports at the Beginning and End of the XVth Century" (1986) available in full here , page 632" Area Pepper(lbs) Spices(lbs) Alexandria 1,614,300 221,335 Beirut 414,250 449,987 Romania (Constantinople) 67,920 43,687 4. Fall of Constantinople had little effect on prices of pepper and spice (and from there we can conclude also the supply) "To show this part, we will reffer to Frederic C. Lane and his paper Pepper Prices Before Da Gama where he lists the prices of pepper through the years in Venice. The expectation being that after 1453, if the trade routes were closed we would see the effect in prices. I’ll post the photo of the table he compiled here. Analyzing this we can see that in the period of 1430- 1490 the price of pepper remained relatively the same. Compare that to events of 1499-1503 when the price of pepper really jumped which is related to both Second Venetian-Ottoman War and Portuguese incursion in Indian ocean that really stopped the flow of pepper. Analyzing previous years, we can really conclude there is no obvious shortage or stoppage of spices coming to Europe prior to 1499 related to Ottomans, or any other Muslim nation, at all. Interesting detail: Lane’s table shows another very curious incident - sudden spike in prices between 1409 and 1411 and remaining until 1430s. The reason is still unknown but one guess it was the result of the Zheng He expeditions which." 6. Ottomans, Mamluks nor for that matter any other Muslims never ‘stopped the spice trade’ to Europe, nor would they want to (for a longer period) "This is an important point and one which too many people just don’t think about. Why would the Ottomans stop the trade to Europe in the first place? Just because they were Christians? It would make no economic sense, and accomplish nothing. Even in times of conflict with some of the nations, like Venice, there were plenty of other traders filling the void: French, Ragusan, Catalan, Genoese, later English and Dutch also. I will only mention and hope I don’t have to go into details of the French-Ottoman alliance and capitulations granted by Ottomans as I am really not an expert in Ottoman diplomatic and trade relations. However their very existence is the ultimate proof that trade was never stopped. Edit Whoops. I forgot here to add some key data Table 2. Venetian galley import average annuals for years 1496 - 1498 from Wake: "The Volume of trade ....", page 633 (13/16 in the link) Area Pepper(lbs) Spices(lbs) Alexandria 1,754,480 2,140,880 Beirut 603,150 563,231 Basically, this data in the table above shows how much pepper and spice did the Venetians import by the end of 15th century. The total amount is even larger then in the beginning (table for 1394-1405) indicating not only the trade never stopped but that it even increased (but this might be just Venetians muscling out competiton). To be fair, just this data alone still allows the possibility of stopping the trade in mid 15th century and then recovering but a) that's unlikely as we have zero indications for this and b) if it even recovered than the point that Muslims stopped trade is still moot" If you want the sources and links from the specified mega-thread I can give them to you, or you can search them up yourself.

[@MaximusAugustusOrthodox]

I am actually pretty sure that the Imperialistic Powers would have won the Cold War or at least not lose it. Because the Balkan is actually very prosperous and so is Anatolia, but because of mainly religious differences those are today very unstable, but these problems wouldn’t exist if the eastern Roman Empire would have never fallen, they all would be orthodox Christian, and turkey today is poor because of its Islamic laws and bad governance. Greece would also be completely different in that regard. The Eastern Block would be insanely rich in fossil fuels and generally speaking recourses, which are much likely also in the Mediterranean but due to the conflict between Greece and turkey and their dispute, people can’t do their research there. Plus they would have a huge touristic sector and be an industrial power as well. The west only won the Cold War because the east was communist and completely isolated. But imperialism isn’t communism or socialism at all. Orthodox Christian Russia and Greece could have easily stand against the western powers, also because they would have had more people. Imperialistic Russia had the fastest growing population of all industrial powers in the early 20th century by far. Russia would have today at least a population of around 400-500 million people. Bigger than the US. T Hey would have also been the technologically speaking more advanced because the renaissance would have happen in Greece probably. It was only in Italy because Greeks especially Greek priests and bishops fled to Italy after the ottomans conquered Constantinople and took all the knowledge with them.

[@Byz_enjoyer]

awesome video i subscribed cant wait to see more like this

[@d.l.hemmingway3758]

There wouldn't be a Helenic Republic aka Modern Greece because in effect the Byzantine Republic would be that world's Greece. Greco-Roman Civilization world effectively carry on into that world's modern era with Byzantines being practically indistinguishable from their Central and Western European counterparts.

[@Vajak-24]

So although byzantine empire remained...Russia also stayed Orthodox and did not become communist?

[@aditya5474]

I always thinking that Byzantine also discover a new world with Britain and create a colony that now became one of USA State

[@randomguy6152]

Amazing story although it's just our events with different country names like how WW2 turned out it was an amazing fan fiction which had me wanting to hear more nice job man

[@Historicalsidequests]

Thank you!

[@DakuHonoo]

lmao is this format "mupper asks chatgpt leading questions?" pretty good

[@1mol831]

Worth 100k subs

[@Baba_Bahebal]

This video was quite entertaining although it is a bit unrealistic to think things would turn out in such a similar way to what they did in real life. I also think that the fracturing of the byzantine empire doesn't make much sense. being under the roman rule for like 2000 years (the Slavs only like 1400 but that is still a lot)I don't think they would be so ready to revolt. Realistically by then they would already all speak probably Greek or Latin since it didn't take the historical roman empire that long to spread Latin. and language and culture are the main drivers of nationalism so I think that Byzantium except for maybe any Muslim land they have would be pretty safe. It also doesn't really make sense to say that they would split of in a similar way to the soviet union because it is imperialist not communist they would still be capitalist. at most I can see the Byzantines having some sort of revolution or reform to remove the emperor or become a constitutional monarchy but anything else seems like a bit of a stretch

[@IonutPaun-lp2zq]

I think Bulgaria will revolt, same with Serbia, etc. So these countries will still exist as modern national states. It also depends on their relations. If they had equal rights, and good opportunities, perhaps they would not.

[@specil-k]

Damn why would you skip the first four hundred years of the scenario

[@mirianvanidze3280]

Lithuania surviving as an empire makes 0 sense under any circumstances

[@paprskomet]

If "Byzantine" empire would not fell,it would mainly not named "Byzantine"empire.

[@hotchocolateconnoisseur]

What editing software do you use?

[@Historicalsidequests]

I use Davinci Resolve for editing but for map animations I use adobe after effects

[@forresterscalan3921]

Suprised they didnt finally call themselves Greeks at the very end of the video.

[@hellgates_javed6451]

They're roman

[@KONSTANTINOSGRIGORIADIS-e6i]

Firstly, Armenias will not have the any reasons to rebel agains the byzantines, the armenians, where heavly discriminated by the turks, (like other ethnisitis under them back then). Also the Armenians were orthodox, while turks where muslims, that was also an other reason. Unless the byzandines adapt muslim and start discrimates agaians those that are still Orthodox, The οnly legit reason i can think is heavy taxes, but still it's highly unlikely, need more contex on this one, not that they just rebel. Secondly Italy even if they turn agressive like the naxis, they still miss the industrial capacity or even the resources to support a war like the naxis did during the WW2. This what if has plot holes. But still it is an interesting take on history.

[@Historicalsidequests]

Thank you!

[@kuroazrem5376]

What would happen when the Mongols inevitably arrive?

[@Historicalsidequests]

The byzantines get defeated, but at some point the mongols collapse and the byzantines manage to reconquer their former teritorries in asia.

[@GeorgeMasterclass]

If Eastern Rome never fell, I believe it would have had troubles with its Balkan Slavic subjects (Mainly the Bulgars and the Serbs). Moreover I believe there would have been a few wars with Russia as well over the Slavic minorities in the Balkans. Perhaps Eastern Rome wouldve opposed the unification if Italy as well as the South would had been seen as Greek lands. The Byzantines also may have made excursions in the east to recapture lost cities like Antioch, Edessa and so on.

[@IonutPaun-lp2zq]

It depends how the Romans would treat the serbs, bulgarians, etc. If they had equal rights under the law, and the economy was very good, they might not revolt. After all, there was no religious divide.

[@GeorgeMasterclass]

@@IonutPaun-lp2zq The Bulgarians revolted many times during Byzantine rule. Twice successfully. So religion only wont cut it. There is nationalism as well. Of course Russia still has its strategic objectives and will act upon them as they did against the Ottomans. Meaning warm sea ports, expansion southwards and so on. The Russians didnt attack the Ottomans only because they were Muslim.

[@IonutPaun-lp2zq]

@@GeorgeMasterclass Of course. It's still year 1000 when the Bulgarians got conquered. Nationalism occured in the 18-19th centuries. Perhaps they could have found ways to collaborate extremely well.

[@NickAndriadze]

Nice story, although definitely with a lot of holes, like history wouldn't go THIS similarly to our own still, there'd be a lot of side effects to no crusades that you didn't mention, also there's a sad lack of Georgia in this video, which would become a Caucasian superpower in its own right, possibly unifying with Armenia to form a genuinely powerful master of the east-west roads and trade routes, something they couldn't manage to do thanks to the Mongols, Timurids and later the Ottomans- hey speaking of which, WHERE DO BE THE MONGOLS?! Maybe a series of crusades could be initiated against *them?*

[@Historicalsidequests]

I like how your alternate history would go! To be honest, I know that history wouldn't go this similarly to our own, but it's the best I could do without turning this into my own fiction on a very different world. If the events play out like this I can atleast ground them in reality and make it more realistic for some watchers. Thank you for leaving a comment!

[@NickAndriadze]

@@Historicalsidequests That is absolutely true, you have to follow rough guidelines established by history instead of creating fantasy (which would still be great in its own right). Speaking of my alternate history, yeah, I really do believe with seljuk invasions still happening, but being repelled by a more competent Byzantium, the Georgian reformation under David IV the Rebuilder would still happen, making Georgia extremely stable and strong, plus with no immediate threats on their soil _(at least till the Mongols show up, but there won't be any followup raids from Ottomans or Timurids which frankly wouldn't exist)_ and with a chain of amazing leaders that it had not being disrupted, it'd absolutely dominate the landscape, even though Byzantines might be slightly hostile towards them (No worries though, at least they get us diplomatically and religiously).

[@shadowf2632]

It's a little unlikely to the Romans experience Armenian revolts due to their close relationships throughout the centuries if you think that some Roman emperors were Armenians also

[@King-LeonidasXXVII]

Thats it im summoning a hypernova

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@King-LeonidasXXVII oh

[@mehoV2]

*Don't do that... don't give me hope.*

[@VergiliosSpatulas]

The true borders do be kinda sexy

[@dbizo0003]

Well first the East Romans wouldn't exactly hate the idea of Democracy though they may viewed it as a failed experiment, recalling the attempt in Ancient Greece and the fall of the former Roman Republic after Spartacus's Defeat . If this was the Roman Republic today as you mentioned it would be similar to Britain with a Parliamentary Monarchy, and odds are they would get along rather well with the west, providing allot of aid and assistance in the region.

[@rey_nemaattori]

There's no way italy would've been able to start ww2 😂 It all hinged on Britain & France protecting Poland.

[@psychedsage4990]

Basically same but with more drama.

[@JustinianG]

Can we do a collaboration?

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@JustinianG I’m not looking for collaborations at this time

[@dominiclawson5362]

Expected a Byzantine Putin to appear in the end and attempt to recover Balkan territory.

[@kizermason]

Blessed time line?

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@kizermason who knows?

[@tristanmorrow6447]

I think this has a misunderstanding of Rome government. Rome as always had a republic government just the senate was very weak after an emperor was point in power. I see it becoming more like how England is today or more like a fusion of England and USA where the emperor playing a role like the president. Egypt would be fully taken back into the Empire or be made into a puppy of the empire to it had the strength to take in full.

[@orrorsaness5942]

I see

[@lorath]

5:57 just like ottoman empire :D

[@thephilosophyofhorror]

So this is the good timeline :)

[@francistjose7324]

America would not have been discovered.

[@thomasrice4930]

It would be "Roman" or "Eastern Roman" not Byzantine

[@furnaceheadgames9001]

The USA would exist. 7:02

[@Komrad_Cybersyn]

Meh. I am not convinced at the ruse of nationalisms i the eastern roman empire given that even centuries after its fall there was numerous greeks pokets of population in Anatolia. So given roman renovatio in Asia, we can easily imagine a greekophilation of a majority of the population in the area. That and being given a common religion, tge constantinople orthodox church. Moreover, eastern Rome was quite the diplomatic master and i don't believe they would need to play tge military card that hard to retake at least some foothold in Italy. Especially after the murder of the last Hohenstaufen of Sicily by the normands and the pope. Or the leagues war between papist and emperors partisans. Etc etc. As for Asia, a retaking of Anatolia would open the way to a reconquest of the area would be possible given the clusterfuck that the area was given the civil war of the arab empire. Maybe even landing in Egypt would be possible after some time and the lacj of popularity of the mameluks.

[@Historicalsidequests]

I don't think that Anatolia would become "greekified". For example, Armenians managed to survive in the Anatolian peninsula all the way from 300 BC or even older than that, without assimilating into other cultures. We must remember that they were under the romans for almost 2000 years and yet they still didn't assimilate simply due to the rough terrain of the Anatolian mountains. I think it's safe to say that the Armenians remaining Armenian would be pretty likely, unless something like the Armenian genocide happens in this universe as well.

[@AlexAnastaso]

Τhe byzantine empire will lose the inside of asian minor at some point, they will hold the shore, even without turks the inside of asia minor had other ethnicities

[@aonirsplayground6224]

You would have to assume a ton of things GOOD things would follow suit, things that made other realms/"countries"/kingdoms crumble and remade. I'm mostly talking about the "cultural heritage" of simply every noble wanting to be emperor, and it being easily rewarded, its a trait aquired from late roman empire, where the hoarding of wealth concentration made everyone else poor, including, ironically, the empire itself being unable to defend itself because of such mismanagement. It was a fking byzantine hobby to change emperors almost as one changes fking underwear, and even those lasting somewhat more than a year were puppets to someone else. If it was to survive as some form of sucessor states, it would be far more believable, but even if you remove turks/ottomans altogether, there would still be some hundreds of years of duchy-level internal fighting with "invitations" towards the west to increase individual power, all while weaking themselves as a whole, which once again you would have to ignore the tribal blobs constantly wanting in anatolia. No stability to sustain it, and it was too ingrained at a cultural level to be easily removed.

[@IndoHelleneBall]

the good ending

[@lefterismagkoutas4430]

if only :(

[@GrippyClips]

?? 0:05 ?? you mean from 753 BCE to Modern day? The Byzantine Empire is the Eastern Roman Empire.

[@Historicalsidequests]

I meant to say the changes from Basil the seconds' death to modern day, but I can see how that can be interpreted now haha. My bad.

[@carlospaniagua405]

They would have to face the might of tamerlan instead of the turks

[@jaylonhale5704]

Me like do the western empire next like a western Roman Empire that was able to maintain Illyria Italy parts of southern France and the eastern coast of Iberia and Africa. Maybe when the Muslim invasions begin they either lose Africa and halt the Muslim expansion at the in northern Iberia. Also maybe with Roman influence still in the west the realm of sygiarus replaced Clovis and a gallo Roman France forms

[@AndreaMoletta-s3c]

So, if the Turks stayed in the steppes, Italy would be competent?

[@shtonker8]

Democratic Blocks? Do you mean Republic Blocks??

[@G-man_thebest.xyzjhd]

How cold war without USSR?!

[@jordanorfanopoulos6697]

Most probable storyline of Byzantine Empire although it would not have that name......but rather the Roman Empire up until Cold War.......and the Final Name would arguebly be Hellenic Republic....not Byzantine or Roman Republic cause this new state would be inhabited mostly by Greeks (~80%)

[@ohimaiikhioya1463]

I dont think there will be a United States

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@ohimaiikhioya1463 why do you think that?

[@ohimaiikhioya1463]

@@Historicalsidequests Before if people wanted to go to China or other counties in the east they passed through Anatolia. I think the Ottomans stopped allowing people to travel east, but with the Byzantines around people may be allowed to travel and trade through Byzantine territory.

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@ohimaiikhioya1463I actually wanted to include that in the video! But upon looking it up, it seems that the ottomans never forbid trading between China and India and Europe. They just taxed it a bit, like all countries did, and the portugese and spanish wanted to find a shorter way to india to trade directly with them so to avoid all the tarrifs other countries would put on the goods. The portuguese already started exploring around africa even before the Byzantines fell. This is a common misconception in the history community. But to be honest, I would have loved an alternate america in this video, but I was dissapointed when I found out….

[@ohimaiikhioya1463]

@@Historicalsidequests Thanks for clearing the misconceptions

[@harry-matakios1344]

This feels like a chat got generated scenario. The internet is now dead and buried, and ai killed it

[@Historicalsidequests]

Bro I literally wrote this what are you on about?

[@harry-matakios1344]

@@Historicalsidequests I am on medication sorry

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@harry-matakios1344 It's ok bro, take care

[@matthewct8167]

The Byzantine republic might be called the Republic of the Romans. As it’s not just Greeks there but numerous other ethnicities, and have a commonality in their heritage as Romans.

[@JackReed-d6g]

That first guys voice is horrible

[@collaborisgaming2190]

13:49 Good job ignoring the Asian and African impact of the Cold War.

[@Historicalsidequests]

thanks!

[@Βαλέρι-36]

Yessir

[@Historicalsidequests]

@@Βαλέρι-36 yess

[@amurian1754]

Take a kebab and go to sleep with bzzzzantium 😂

[@luffyomnissj741]

And colonial Empire ???

[@braquiochoncv.u5696]

Despite everything, I think you gave the Eastern Romans the short end of the stick in many situations. This version of the Empire never reconquered Egypt, no colonies in Africa or Asia and every separatist movement against the Empire succeeded. If the Eastern Romans survived the Middle Ages with 1025 borders, they would probably be able to achieve much more than what's shown here. At the very least, peoples like the Southern Slavs in the Balkans or the Armenians in Eastern Anatolia would either be assimilated into Roman culture after almost 1000 years of Eastern Roman rule, or they would be so used to it they would consider themselves a natural part of the Roman nation. This would be similar to other modern multiethnic countries, like Spain or Russia.

[@IonutPaun-lp2zq]

The empire did not want to rule over Muslims, see here Anthony Kaldellis books. They would probably wanted to reconquer Sicily from the Muslims, and perhaps expand into central Italy rather the middle East.

[@braquiochoncv.u5696]

@@IonutPaun-lp2zq The Middle East at the time still had significant Christian populations, and the Empire still had religious interest over the region, not to mention a historical claim to the land. Many emperors have campaigned in Syria and Palestine to reconquer the East while Southern Italy remained a largely secondary province ruled by a Catephan.

[@IonutPaun-lp2zq]

@@braquiochoncv.u5696 Well yes, but the Byzantines could have conquered more during 11th century, and they didn't. The reason for this, is that they did not want to rule directly over Muslims, and they did not want the Muslims to unite in jihad against them.

[@braquiochoncv.u5696]

@@IonutPaun-lp2zq I'd rather atribute that to the incompetence of most emperors after Basil II up to 1071, and later the Komnenoi were busy trying to reconquer lands in Anatolia that they lost to the Seljuks. Still, emperors like Manuel I Komnenos manifested a lot of interest in Egypt and the Holy Land. Conquest of hostile territories is hard and a muslim coalitiom may make things even harder, but this doesn't mean the Eastern Romans didn't want to retake the land. If they had more competent leadership after Basil II and the Muslim states in the region like the Fatimids were weaker, Eastern Rome would have expanded more into that direction after already having secured their Balkan borders.

[@ripclcze8845]

❤

[@valiatus6719]

Roman Empire*

[@solakalper92]

if turks never conquered east rome. Americas discovery could be mush later in the history. :)

[@solakalper92]

and if east rome survives today, they never called themselves byzantium :) they just called themselves roman rupublic :)

[@solakalper92]

good intention for the video but bad execution. didnt like it

[@Historicalsidequests]

Check my reply to user Incubator859

[@solakalper92]

@@Historicalsidequests you dont have the energy to reply me :D ok dont care the answer

[@Satsuma-tm8ep]

Byzantine Republic or REPUBLIC of Greece 😂

[@dziosdzynes7663]

Roman*