What is a Ringfort?

[@denismccarthy7796]

Thanks Eoin, enjoyed this. Actually recorded a ringfort on my farm that wasn't in the records. Plus 1 to the count 😂

[@forasfeasa]

Hi Denis, lucky you... I would love to find something like that (but all I have is nettles and gorse. Be sure to email the OPW and eventually they will add to the official count! :-) Thanks for the Coffee you bought, much appreciated.

[@raykeogh8533]

Lots of forts weren't included in the 1842 OS map. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3nKcmB6Z7qlmc0si=oZwrBDAgaWbWCuTX

[@JesseP.Watson]

Thank you for another insightful nugget my friend. Nice to hear those few words of Irish at the end by the way... Always a pleasure to hear the old tongues of these isles. 🙂 ...Made me think, I need a ring fort!

[@forasfeasa]

Go raibh maith agut. We all need a ring fort or two (or more). Or a hill fort, but that is another story :-)

[@Dhhhhj27]

I used to play in one on the Galey River in Kerry .It was one of the better persevered ones that I've seen but it didn't have the stone walls .

[@forasfeasa]

What was the name of the area it was in? North Kerry has much better land than South Kerry, so less stone, meaning that it was easier to build out of clay/earth. There must be some cashels (stone ringforts) there, but I can't think of any!

[@Dhhhhj27]

@@forasfeasa Bedford

[@forasfeasa]

@@Dhhhhj27 Thanks.... another place on my long list of places to visit 🙂

[@benmulvey2704]

Great video. I wonder if any of the largest of these ringfort networks went on to become any of the towns or cities of today?

[@forasfeasa]

I would say so - especially going by the place names. Dundalk, Dun laoghaoire, etc. Admittedly, the main cities and many towns were founded by the Norse, but often they were near Irish settlements.

[@Kevin-hg2df]

Really interesting video and content, thanks for posting.

[@forasfeasa]

Thanks a lot

[@mike-myke22]

Fascinating. Thanks for posting. 👌

[@forasfeasa]

Thanks a lot! Thanks for the lovely comment

[@SEKreiver]

Good segment! When I visited Ireland, I went to Newgrange, Poul-na-Brone, and several castles. I wish I would've fit in a ringfort or two.

[@forasfeasa]

It is a good excuse to come back to Ireland for another visit :-)

[@SEKreiver]

@@forasfeasa My last visit in 2019 broke my heart. NOT the Ireland of 2002 that I loved so much. When some house-cleaning is done, I might reconsider. Ireland for the Irish. Prayers from the USA.

[@frankmitchell3594]

Very interesting, I did not know what a Rath referred to. Did these Raths have a well or water source inside them or could they rely on rainfall?

[@forasfeasa]

Thanks for the comment. As regards water sources, it varied. Most would have had nearby sources, such as springs or streams. But I think it would have been rare to have one inside - evidence that these were homesteads not fortifications built for sieges etc. Probably rainwater was also collected (and there would have been lots of that).

[@AnBreadanFeasa]

Development of ringforts between the 5th and 9th centuries would have been in parallel with the growth of Irish monastic settlements. I wonder would these have been good markets for the cattle raised by the ringfort dwellers? And if their demise was from the 9th century this would have been concurrent with the Viking period and the development of town during that time. Again, I wonder if there was any cause and effect. BTW... I have been fascinated by Staigue Fort since I was 10 years' old and Dún Aengus is one of the most fascinating places I've ever seen.

[@forasfeasa]

Several of the monastic sites had their own farms - as on Valentia. On some of the island sites where they have found middens, basically piles of bone waste, they have identified the diet (which was very varied). Some of the bigger ones would have been markets, but they might also have had large herds of cattle. They would have been integrated with the local ringforts and would have offered a market in more than just cattle - they would have needed many things, such as metals, ink, fabrics, perhaps wine... probably the emergence of towns under the Norse contributed to the change/decline of ringforts. Staigue is beautiful. I have to get back to Dun Aengus. Dun Aengus is much older than the usual ringfort, but at the end of the ringfort period it seems to have been reused. Probably Staigue was as well. There is a lot we do not know about both these places (about many places in fact)

[@AnBreadanFeasa]

​@@forasfeasa It's another irony of history that there is little written or reliable record of the social history of Ireland from the arrival of Christianity (& writing) to the end of the Viking period, while at the same time Ireland was vaunted as the Land of Saints and Scholars and the standard of education was greatly elevated compared to continental Europe. Having said that it's clear that this education was religious in nature, with little or no focus on the humanities - philosophy in its wider guise, natural philosophy (physics & chemistry), mathematics and science. It perhaps highlights the comparison with Islamic Spain at the same time, which was undoubtedly the intellectual centre of Europe from the 8th century. Why were there no great Irish mathematicians, philosophers or scientists from that period? Rhetorical question... I think it's a reasonable statement to say that the Christian Church wasn't great with intellectual competition.

[@forasfeasa]

@@AnBreadanFeasa interesting questions! Though there were some Irish philosophers from that time, such as John Scotus Erigena. IN addition, there were very interesting engineering innovations, such as the tidal mills (which I must admit I don't know enough about.) Rather than solely blaming the Christian Church, I think other factors mattered in Ireland, especially population. Ireland lacked the population mass which could allow universities and scientists. Many other factors would have mattered. However, it is a question rarely raised - and an important question! In short I think the answer to your question is a book! :-) Worth discussing it though

[@AnBreadanFeasa]

@@forasfeasa Apologies for taking a while to respond... life getting in the way of philosophising and speculating on YT. Isn't that is the sole purpose of online anonymous commentary... right? Here goes... Why no great Irish mathematicians, natural philosophers or scientists during the Age of Saints & Scholars: 1. Your point about the small population is probably valid, qualified with the observation that it was probably not dissimilar to that of Classical Greece 1,500 years previously. However when a relatively small population is culturally isolated, when Greece clearly was not, it is less likely to produce a broader intellectual environment. 2. I do think the Christian Church had a fair bit to do with it, though I'm guessing of course. The Roman and Eastern Churches did not formally split until 1054, but doctrinal conflict was a central factor in the development of Christianity. Though the Irish/Scots brought Christianity to the Saxons/English, the Synod of Whitby in the 7th century meant the exclusion of the Celts and the primacy of Rome in England (hmm... that seems little ironic now). Rome hated heresy of all stripes and my understanding is that's why Armagh ultimately became the national See, when previously it had been on a par with Cashel. 3. Now, something a little questionable. There is zero doubt that the Islamic world was the centre of science, mathematics, engineering, medicine, secular philosophy and education from the 8th to the 12th centuries. I think one of the main reasons is they used Hindu-Arabic numerals, meaning their calculus was widely understood and taught. In contrast, Europe and the Christian world (excluding Copts) used Roman numerals. Building a church with the biggest stones available was therefore simpler than calculating angles and vertical loads by dividing MCCDLXIII by CLXI. Right or wrong I think that meant few real engineers, who can be genuine intellectuals when it comes to architecture and building massive structures. 4. Again another guess... Dark Ages Britain was located between Ireland and the continent. Until Charlemagne's time I don't think there were any higher educational establishments north of the Alps other than monasteries. I know that Don Scotus was his tutor and advisor, but I believe all of his writings were theological in some form or other and didn't address humanist subjects in the same was Plato and his ilk did. The geographical distance between Irish thinkers (theologians) and "real" intellectuals meant there could be little exchange of new ideas, by which I mean that Islamic non-theological thought never made its way to Ireland in any influential fashion. 5. To follow the previous point, Islamic Spain or Andalucia was the closest centre of scientific thought to Ireland. However, the Muslims never conquered Galicia or Asturias so Northern Spain was still Christian, and pretty archaic I believe. I'm purely guessing that there would have been regular Irish visitors to La Coruna and Compostela, but I doubt the conversation often strayed into what has happening with medicine or maths in Cordoba or Seville when Christian priests were performing exorcisms for mumps and measles. 6. Pre-Vikings there were no recognisable towns in Ireland, and certainly no cities that might have developed into centres of science and learning. It might be unfair to them but perhaps our ancestors spent their evenings and weekends (",) discussing the quotidian rather than the academic? I think that all "modern" technology at the time had been imported so there wasn't a class of metallurgists or chemists thinking about creating the next Silicon Valley in the 7th or 8th centuries. 7. I'm really gonna stretch on this last point. Christianity had displaced, replaced and repressed Druidic practices. We really don't know what these pre-Christian practitioners learned, taught, thought or practiced due to the lack of written records and misrepresentation by Christian commentators. However, though the Druids undoubtedly were healers, thinkers, theologians, jurists and influencers, they were not engineers, architects and mathematicians. Perhaps that means there simply was no Irish tradition of secular or physical enquiry that didn't have some spiritual element? So despite our Saints, who were undoubtedly impressive individuals who contributed much to European culture, and our Scholars from Dun Scotus to Yeats, Shaw and Heaney, our most notable scientists are probably English born Richard Boyle (physics), Austrian born Erwin Schrodinger of dead cat fame, and English born George Boole (mathematics and logic). I'm a finance/economics guy so maybe my conclusion is that we should stick to what we're good at. Leave the science to the rest of the world so that we can stick to the limbo of the demi-physical-spiritual where we can indulge our "myst-ellect". Slán tamall...

[@forasfeasa]

@@AnBreadanFeasa Very interesting observations. You should really develop them into a very interesting essay. 1. In relation to Greece, I have a feeling the population of Classical Greece was bigger than early medieval Ireland - remember the Greeks had cities in parts of Asia (until the 1920s there was a considerable Greek population in Turkey and until the 1960s or 70s so did Alexandria. Marseille, Scilly, and other parts of the Western Mediterranean were full of Greek settlements. So Greece had some of of excess population - whch can also be seen in mercenary armies in Persia (Xenophon). In addition, Greece did not emerge out of nothing. It was part of a Mediterranean/Middle East world in which there had always been contemplation on philosophical themes. The Greeks took it further for some reason. 2 Rome did hate heresy, but how Roman was Irish Christianity. Totally in some ways, but less so in others. Though I have a feeling the drive to Romanise the Irish Church under Malachy and others in the 11th century, probably distracted any budding philosophers. 3& 4 Excellent points - though you could also tentatively argue that the political instability (and the political-religious structures) in Western Europe resulting from the end of Rome prevented humanist discussions from multiplying 5 years ago I saw an excellent film about the Arabic philosopher Averroes (An interesting review here www.rogerebert.com/reviews/destiny-1999). I thought of it reading this point 6 Most technology was imported, but the tidal mill seems to have been an Irish development 7 Was it possible anywhere between the medieval period and the englightenment to have any research without a spiritual element? The modern world has been so secularised that this aspect is often overlooked. I am also sceptical about the repression of Druidic practices. I think that pre-Christian beliefs were incorporated by Christianity (as other religions also did). Before the Gaelic people large tombs such as New Grange, stone circles, and stone rows were built in Ireland. Some sort of semi-scientific knowledge was involved in this, as they (among other things) functioned as sort of calendars, and/or observatories - intersected by other needs. Many stone rows for example have orientations to astronomical events, but often these are slightly adjusted to the landscape, such as a sacred mountain in the distance. However, this knowledge was lost at some stage. I like the idea of myst-ellect! Thanks again for your wonderful comments, which I again think you should flesh out. I really think they are ideas that deserve/need to be heard!

[@lorianxxxxx]

I loved this video, Thank you so much.

[@forasfeasa]

You are very welcome! :-)

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Would of been cool to live in one in the day

[@forasfeasa]

It would have! Definetely

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

@@forasfeasa

[@JesseP.Watson]

Aye, that it would!

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

I`d like a Rath of my own😋

[@forasfeasa]

@@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf I want a cashel, need the stone walls! (To sit on contemplating the sunset..)

[@feral7523]

Is there any reconstruction models of what Aileach looked like originally?

[@forasfeasa]

Not that I am aware of. I would love to see one though (and will look for one). However, I have a feeling that the 19th reconstruction messed things up in terms of getting an idea of what it originally looked like. I also know that some argue that the original Aileach (as in the Cenel nEoghain capital) was elsewhere. Close by is Elagh castle, some people reckon this was the Aileach - though the location of Aileach seems correct to me....

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Is the Irish Ringfort any good mate. Do they talk about the poorer Raths or just the rich lot`s Ringforts?

[@forasfeasa]

The book? They talk about everything really. It is quite technical and dry in some points, but it is a good book. Actually, I would also recommend by the same author "Early Medieval Ireland, 431-1169". He sums up in it his ringfort research and provides a very good account of the period

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

@@forasfeasa Cheers

[@forasfeasa]

@@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf Thanks for the 'coffee' I hope you don't mind if I spend it on beer :-)

[@aineoneill4735]

There is no sound on this video?

[@forasfeasa]

There is sound. Strange, you can't hear. Could be a youtube blip...?

[@raykeogh8533]

Interesting video, and nicely produced. Here's another aspect of the ring forts I've been exploring. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3nKcmB6Z7qlmc0si=oZwrBDAgaWbWCuTX

[@forasfeasa]

Just watched it. It is interesting. Just a little correction at the beginning, ringforts did not mark the transition from hunter gathers to farming. This had actually occurred hundreds of years before, if not thousands. Have a look at some of the references under my video, especially Allen, F, Whelan, K. and Stout, M. Atlas of the Irish Rural Landscape. Cork University Press. 2011. and Stout, Matthew. The Irish Ringfort. Four Courts Press. 2023. Stout in particular provides great detail on locations on ringforts, that they appear in clusters, and why in some areas. I am not sure I agree with your argument, but I will watch it again to understand it better. In South Kerry, the ringforts are not aligned with lakes, as with a few exceptions these are up the mountains (I am not sure though how important this is for your theory though, one of the reasons I have to watch it again). Thanks for sending me the video to watch and hope it does well for you.