What is a Tier List? (MSC Special)

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In this first episode, I will explore the meaning behind a tier list!
My Twitter ▶ / mysmashcorner
My Twitch ▶ / mysmashcorner
My Discord ▶ / discord
Drawings by Sophia Feesh:
/ @sophial8666
port.sophiafees...
4BR Tier List:
smashboards.co...
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Music by Kevin Macleod:
Chill Wave
incompetech.com...

[@XiaoAndyPugMan]

Animated Kirby makes this video about 73.29% better. Scientifically proven.

[@PiggyGamingTH]

wait why are you here? arent you the person who commented on a bunch of those undertale songs

[@kirbly2854]

Yes siruy it does

[@thenerdyanarchist3492]

yes

[@thanatosp3738]

But Kirby being bottom of the tier list makes it about 60% worse so now it is about 13.29% better

[@tradingforsouls]

I’d say yes, but my profile pic is Ness... Not Kirby...

[@Evello37]

A skilled Fox can beat any Roy. Wait, I think I messed that up.

[@hylianfelldragon1308]

Best joke I've seen in a long while!

[@Johnny-Badhair]

Well... You're not wrong

[@byVariations]

Honestly its a Fox can beat any skilled Roys. Please get it right

[@Orgizo08]

+Will You didn't watch shine did you?

[@PARANOiA1000]

+Will In the Roy vs. Fox mu in Smash 4, no one has a huge advantage. I actually thinks it's a lot of fun for Roy. Aggro vs. Aggro

[@1uparcade33]

The part about how tier lists can negatively affect characters is so true. After Abadango dropped Pac and Wario, they dropped SIGNIFICANTLY and now no one places well with them. I still remember when Wario was considered Top 10 and people thought Pac was Top 20

[@brandontriplin5447]

I think he dropped pacman because of his Match with dabuzz Rosalina

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

Abadango still played Pac-Man after that and got revenge on Dabuz by beating him with Wario (who has a positive matchup on Rosa even without Customs) but eventually dropped both for Meta Knight and Mewtwo regardless.

[@Galaxia53]

He still plays pac-man but not very often.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

*****​​ Did it ever occur to you people have FUN succeeding at what they love? They're NOT obligated to entertaining the audience. If you want variety, there has to be balance, but Nintendo sucks at that. Hence why Project M exists.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

Rbdn T Why should it have to be fun to the people watching? THEY'RE certainly not going to pay the player thousands of dollars in cash for winning; the organized tournament is.

[@donovan9078]

Rock, paper, scissors is not a balanced game. Rock comes out on frame zero. broken af

[@alexbluecyndaquil]

Donovan Lel

[@brumbysdalby27]

Donovan underrated comment

[@Matanumi]

It could work against rock as well though....rocks broken for sure

[@IXland.]

True

[@infoniwceniocwdhvredidhave8126]

Paper frames needed :30 scissors :70 rock:0

[@GameNut321]

Well done video! The only thing is why do people rate the characters in a tier list based off tournament viability? It's feels like characters only move up based on a showcase, like how good the character looks in tournament play, like when Amsa showed off his Yoshi techs.

[@mysmashcorner]

Tournaments are a way for us to see what the character is capable of, which makes tournament results an important factor aside from just analyzing the raw 'tool set' of a character. Think of it like this: If Amsa didn't show that his Yoshi techs/strats were so effective in competitive play (tournaments), we would have never known.

[@Orgizo08]

+Death 13th look up tremendo dude and nicko.

[@ayar2]

+Death 13th Lucina says hi, there`s even tier lists that omit her entirely just because there`s not enough people that play as her in order to make an acurrate judgment, lol.

[@Mdude123456789]

Just to add to what MSC said: a technique needs to be proven that it's effective in competitive play because there are some techniques which are either too difficult or too situational to be useful in a match.

[@Mdude123456789]

***** I was talking more about debatable tech, not obviously helpful tech. I'm talking more about tech like Bidou: when it came out, we knew it existed, but we didn't know if it was practical enough for competitive play, or if it was worth the effort. Though, I don't know how Bidou is looked at today because I don't keep up-to-date on the latest Smash news... Uh, I'm really not the best person to talk with about this.

[@SomethingRandomInc]

A tier list shows how many characters can beat Ganondorf.

[@bctalicorn809]

Something Random Inc. Spoiler alert: it's everyone

[@charizardhaterkiller2663]

BCT Alicorn except jigglypuff. #Buffthepuff

[@megaagentj2248]

Something Random Inc. pretty much, matchups against every character are considered, so Ganondorf is considered

[@michaelj9153]

P A I N

[@aqrifyln6719]

The more tears a character induces, the higher its placement in the tear list.

[@kpirate8365]

XD

[@helvetica6189]

Ness, lucario, and sonic for S tier

[@levateinn9655]

shinin till he starts cryin

[@nocturn333]

Iwata mii fighters are top tear than. ;_;

[@TheXenoxen]

Let's get a formula going, I'm sure u can turn it into a college paper.

[@6FinalFlame6]

Your videos are so high-quality

[@fade6827]

Better nerf greninja

[@Troy-ry5pp]

79$

[@TerraBoy.]

So are siivagunner rips

[@AquaTwist_]

Agreed! This guy needs more subs than OBE1plays!

[@AquaTwist_]

True, but OBE1 wants to have 100,000 subscribers before March. So I'm saying MSC deserves more subs than OBE1

[@BeeSquared]

Even even though I am not the most competitive smash player out there, I can truly respect the amount of time and effort it takes to make a tier list. With that aside, holy crap was this episode incredible. The art style took my by surprise, and I really liked how it turned out. The editing was also very well done. Everything just seemed to flow together in a nice, smooth way. Great work on this man. Now I have to wait for the next one =)

[@karbonatedfebreze4967]

Lmao youre channels dead

[@karbonatedfebreze4967]

Your

[@karbonatedfebreze4967]

Wait

[@vDREEGONv]

I think the only problem with tier lists, is that people think low tiers CAN'T win a tournament, or even against a top tier, which is not the case. While Cloud is more viable then Ganondorf, this does not mean that the Ganondorf can't win. But even though this obviously makes sense, i have seen some players on online media not knowing this. Fx. i am a Falco player, and not just any Falco player, THE best Falco player in Denmark. I have seen many people putting Falco in low tier, but i myself, think he is either Mid-Mid tier, or Mid-High tier, and this is because that i play with him myself, constanty devolping my playstyle with him, leading to me knowing things about Falco, that maybe other top Falco players do not know. I am not saying that Falco IS mid-mid tier, its actually just my personal opinion, just like all these players. I will never factor tiers over skill, because when it comes down to it, every character can win, even though it may be harder for some characters, every character can still win :)

[@2supermaro]

yep i agree

[@vDREEGONv]

Just Breathe Cool ^_^ Though it seems someone does not agree at all, and thinks Denmark is a weak region.....guess he has never played against Green or Laske xD KZbin deleted his comment though, so its all fine :)

[@princegoatcheese9379]

I can get more results in For Glory when I play as Yoshi, Bowser, and Duck Hunt than when I play as Marth or Ganondorf.

[@juanluis21monsanto98]

DreeGon While it's a year old, heavily agree. The best tier list for people is their PERSONAL list, subjective to only themselves. I found myself being pretty good with Toon Link, or Sonic, yet I keep seeing Fox and Falco treated as ultimately the best, when in fact it's all about the PLAYERS and their style, some are more ranged, keeps a good distance, yet deals good damage, others are more close and personal, hit and runs, suicide bombers, pit traps, quick shooter, etc, etc the list goes on. Though having the tier lists shows which characters have more time invested, and skills, and tactics work, I'm no competitive player, even if I playfully mock/brag being such and get rekt'd soon after and left laughing, but I would definitely start focusing on low, or even bottom tier characters, and learn how to use them to their fullest, because let's face it, SOMEONE is going to pro play Pichu, and take out insane high tiers, Bayonneta, Ridley, Cloud, you name it. It would only be a matter of time. Overall, there is no garbo character or shit tier, it's all up to the players, and their skills against each other that truly matter in a fight, competitive or casual, it could be a high clash, one sided, or an underdog battle, and with the new smash, I hope they can put a bit more of an emphasis on that, that no character is a waste of a slot, even echo fighters, though I'm not the biggest fan, do have some differences that can be meaningful to other players. (Personally, Dark Pit could've had a totally unique move set with whatever weapons Pit doesn't use in Smash from Uprising, but oh well) and that each of them DO have what it takes to be at the top, it just depends on who uses them, and most of all, it's just a game, it doesn't have to be taken that seriously. (I'm item trash because it keeps the fights unpredictable, and even wild with the right combinations on screen. XD)

[@fluffyplayery3017]

@I’m Falling Through Life He said best Falco player, not best overall.

[@relaxalax]

You gotta let me know how you got the characters standing idle like at 3:00. Was it Rotobrushing or hacking?

[@mysmashcorner]

It's a new technique that kills the opponent, and the entire stage. No, but really its just Omega Pacland, poison mushroom, and the plain green background. Ultra/Chroma Key the green out of the footage.

[@theshadowspider97]

Did you seriously just ask that? It's their taunts and idle animations.

[@donlam2366]

Ohhh _that's_ why he was a little blurry

[@MishKoz]

He was asking how MySmashCorner was able to get such a clean outline with the shadow.

[@DrPumpkinz]

+Shadow Lord (Shadow) Yes, but it's ONLY them, nothing else.

[@splattek6870]

3:02 That was an awesome pun

[@MCWaxC]

That's not a pun.

[@TheAAJYu]

Because "limits were meant to be broken," am I right?

[@Check_5_]

Ohhhhhhhhh

[@splattek6870]

Tiers are meant to be broken XD

[@MCWaxC]

+Static You people don't seem to understand what a pun is. A pun is when you take advantage of a word having multiple meanings. That wasn't at all a pun.

[@Chmmr]

"constantly pushing the limits of higher tier characters" shows cloud i see what you did there

[@seanmiller6583]

Cloud is a higher tier.

[@Chmmr]

Yes. I know that. They made a pun. Pushing the limits of Cloud? More like breaking the limits amirite? There, did that make it easier to understand?

[@seanmiller6583]

***** Yeah see, what had happened was I didn't see where you had written "I see what you did there", so instead of understanding it was a pun I had incorrectly thought you believed cloud was not a high tier. Some people aren't wired for puns my man, my bad.

[@Giogiost1001]

Or pushing the limits higher as in... to the CLOUDS!!!!!!!! OOOHHHHH

[@DannyDog27]

When it comes to Cloud puns, the sky's the Limit.

[@TheMinecrafter4000]

absolutely amazing stuff MSC. Couldnt think of a way for you to make higher quality videos than you already do and then you prove me wrong yet again. Great stuff.

[@robi-wanshinobi5676]

I completely agree.

[@san..]

5:50 Bottom Right :`)

[@ShinyKelp]

IWATAAAA

[@UnknownFortune]

Thanks for pointing that out!

[@jimmykeffer7401]

Saw it, but didn't really notice it

[@kennethzheng3735]

RIP my soul

[@kennethzheng3735]

***** There was a Mii of Satoru Iwata

[@JakobTheQuizGuy]

SUPER awesome job by you and Sophia! The drawings added a lot to the video actually!

[@shaq238]

A list from most common to least common found on for glory.

[@HealthyWC-2]

GENIUS. I honestly believe they should make this the new name XD. ( At least on April fools )

[@ShucksterJ1]

This may be a joke, but having a "tier list" For Glory would still be kinda useful, if not just a fun side project.

[@firedude350]

Little Mac says otherwise.

[@gulfgiggleanimations4472]

Number one would be cloud, second would be falco

[@Evello37]

Honestly, the S4BR tier list really isn't a good indication of FG popularity. Sheik is 3rd on the tier list, and yet you rarely see Sheiks online because she's a tricky character that requires significant combo optimization and precise spacing. Same with Rosalina and all her janky setups you need to learn. FG popularity is more a cross between tier list position and ease of use. Characters like Ganondorf and Falco are used heavily online despite their poor tier placement because their incredible accessibility makes up for their low potential. Meanwhile, characters who are super good but require craploads of work like Ryu and Mega Man rarely pop up. And of course characters who are both amazing and also easy to use, like Cloud, Mewtwo, and Marth naturally run rampant on FG.

[@GBA-049]

I remember when I made my first tier list, I didn't really know anything about tiers at all. It got A LOT of hate. Not surprised.

[@GBA-049]

+Pickled Gremlin Not that one, lol

[@evicteetori8738]

GBA 049 might not have been hate you know

[@martzfartz]

Tires don exits

[@maxieprimo2758]

Oh yeah they do.

[@revenant7709]

they do...but they doesnt matter that much

[@ayar2]

my car has four of them

[@starcubey]

idk why, but that was really funny

[@kennethzheng3735]

MY PEOPLE NEED ME

[@paperkittyyt]

I just watched 5 seconds of the video, and I'm already subbed.

[@Dougy]

me too?

[@keklekekle1114]

Buddy, if you dont know, no one else will.

[@yummytapeworms445]

+Psi_Smash I subbed because of kirby...

[@Lil_Fr0sty]

I was actually going to make my own video on this. So let me build upon this. My major question when thinking about how to approach a tier list in a video was "If a really good player like ZeRo or Larry Lurr put in time with a low tier and was given time to do so, would they not rise the rank again and perform the same?". I think this a very important question to ask because you brought up player skill and how that effects the character performance. OK, my job here is done. Thanks for reading!

[@mysmashcorner]

To answer your hypothetical question: Yes, if they did that, the low tier will probably rise in rank if they are able to show that there are effective tools/strategies/techs the low tier character has which was unknown before.

[@teriww]

+My Smash Corner. Megaman

[@Lil_Fr0sty]

+Neebah Cuber Point proven xD

[@VelenZaiga]

I think most people's disdain for tier lists comes from the fact that chances are, most low tier characters are not going to get the chance they deserve to truly shine in high competitive play, because nobody wants to lose a tournament match or the placement they're aiming for, just because of the character they used. You can say that X characters has all these tools all the live long day, and while it's true they have those tools, but the tools of the lower tiers will never be discovered if nobody gives them a chance and tries to develop their meta-game. This bias against low tiers that causes them to stay there is my main reason for showing disdain for them.

[@SamDudeification]

+Velen Zaiga but then you have players like Dath

[@benn9_9_9]

Amazing video! Everything was well written, thought out and explained. The editing and animation was phenomenal!

[@DaikoruArtwin]

That Ike ranking low because of Metaknight example is something extremely common in Pokemon. There's a huge amount of pokemons that are thrown into the Never Used tier mostly because they're weak against Stealth Rock. A very good example being Moltres and Articuno. Problem is, you end up with a tier where you have to throw weak pokemons against legendaries, and just get wrecked even with the type advantage. So unfortunately, many pokemons just don't have a tier to shine in.

[@perfectcell5613]

only skinless losers use legendaries and if you know how to swap hyou should almost never on the receving end of a super unless they back you into a corner or you mess up and tiers matter in pokemon even less then they do in smash which is not at all because of the different types and kinds

[@LPsvonmirLuksPlay]

Perfect Cell I both agree and disagree with you. Just because you use Legendaries you aren't a looser. If you use a Landorus-Therian in OU, you use one of the most solid Pokemon in the tier, which increases your chance of winning. But yeah, you can completely destroy opponents even with a NU-Pokemon. A Set-Up Necrozma can turn extremely deadly if you can't deal with them. If a Pokemon is NU, it only means it isn't used often at all, yet it doesn't mean that it sucks.

[@charizardhaterkiller2663]

Perfect Cell not all legenary pokemon are op. Just to name a few, regigigas, mesprit, articuno, ect. The ones that are op are like xerneas, mega rayquaza, pdon, ect.

[@N12015]

Moltres is not that bad. Yeah, it's x4 weak to rock, but he also has a really good bulk and adove average speed. Articuno on the other hand is terrible because it's a defensive ice type, which is like a glass cannon without cannonballs to throw.

[@sunlitcookie]

I'm glad you put in the time to voice your thoughts on the topic.Tier lists are important but they shouldn't be deterministic of who is actually "best" in the game. Obviously there are better characters for specific match ups, and characters that do better in more matchups, but there is also a TON of variance from individual player to individual day. A player can lose against an evenly skilled competitor in a favorable matchup for far more reasons than just tier list placement or matchup uncertainty. Some players are just better at adapting to specific people. Sometimes those theoretical techs don't play out. Other times there's no good explanation, someone just got unlucky. Tier list placement and perpetuation tends to be based on popularity as it's #1 factor as far as what I've seen. Especially since many of those tier lists are put together based on opinions and not statistics.

[@rotz394]

Well, you're not wrong... After all, the tier lists are based off of equally skilled top tier Smash players average win number against every character, and not how good they are in all situations. Brawl is a *slight* exception because even if Meta Knight is super powerful, he is hard to learn and use. #FoxIsToo******ingOP

[@darkMarth123]

Dude paper is top tier.

[@elevate07]

what are you talking about? Rock has the late reveal option select. That alone puts it at S tier

[@BlazeFlipnotes]

lol scissors is a hard counter to paper and rock slightly loses to paper,if paper doesn't cover correctly it gives rock a huge advantage to break out of papers grab thus rock is the best character of the 3

[@edfreak9001]

Rock comes out faster and has the option to change at the last second, The others are too distinct and you have no choices once you choose one. Rock is top tier and the other two are tied.

[@captainnugget471]

Most tournaments ban the late reveal

[@Ashleylombard05]

No every one is wrong it’s obviously ropasers it beats all 3

[@m1997]

This video is fantastic, unbiased in terms of tier list views and the animated segments were so good! You can tell a lot of hard work has gone into them all. I'm loving this new style of videos and I hope to see more!

[@lilwater4718]

Yep All of us cubers go from a 3x3 straight to a gigaminx.

[@teriww]

I went to yottaminx

[@lilwater4718]

+Neebah Cuber petaminx

[@lilwater4718]

+Neebah Cuber and 22x22

[@argentum1738]

*3x3x3

[@lilwater4718]

+Aharon Gordon does it really matter it's not like we are talking about cuboids

[@phlash649]

The little MSC Kirby animations that you've added in are absolutely terrific, I love it

[@EliasGames7]

but first let's talk about parallel universes

[@cantthinkofbettername5065]

*we need to talk about parallel universes

[@MewtwosPie]

and set this box up so I can back into it at a perfect angle for literal days...

[@emmanuelmondesir1314]

Build up speed for 12 hours.

[@ckirby3945]

nice meme

[@mutatedpickle3004]

Lets talk about Tyler breeze

[@Afrohawk512]

The animation and infographics are really well done! Nice work dude! Can't wait to see what comes from this series.

[@calebrong]

Great job on this video honestly, really kinda get annoyed when people say "tiers don't exist" Thanks for all the info

[@HealthyWC-2]

Rant BEWARE: There are certain reasons why they say this tbh. It seems stupid but after arguing with a lot of them for a whole lot, they say it because they think "X character has X move and it can do a lot" But some ( NOT ALL ) seem to forget what this is like going against a TOP PLAYER. Not The Locals, I mean ZeRo. If you roll 5 times he already has in his mind that you roll A LOT. so if sees X player doing X attack he is not going to fall for it. Another reason is for new players that say "What about if other people see this list" Such as kids wanting to "Git gud" At the end of they day: They ALL agree that characters do better against some then others but it's up to the SKILL. So that means the worse character needs a good attack OR a good player.

[@calebrong]

I meant like tiers as in equal skill level. You could be a cloud player going against zero's jiggs and he'd probably still beat you.

[@bigboybunter3417]

Why does that annoy you? If anything, it should make you happy if the person plays characters that are rarely seen instead of those that have proven to get good results. But if someone plays a character like Mario, Cloud, Bayonetta, etc. and says that tiers don't exist, then yeah...I'd get annoyed too :P

[@calebrong]

Idk honestly, these kinda things just annoy me for some reason

[@bigboybunter3417]

Plasmaboy The concept of tier lists annoy me because they're so opinionated, jaded, and result in people picking characters based on others' opinions. Some characters have an easier time winning than others, yes, but imagine if there was a competitive fighting game where a tier list was deliberately not created to see how the meta game would differ from those that have widely accepted tier lists. I guarantee you there would be more character diversity because people are sheep and wouldn't know what to do without their shepherd guiding their every decision. So this is pessimistic to the one of the highest degrees, but tell me: would you see a difference?

[@SharpEmber]

This is really good, I did not expect this video to be so informative and so much fun, the work you did really paid off :D The drawings were super adorable too! Can't wait for more content like this.

[@yukicraft3210]

I have a friend who deny's tier lists existence, and always talks about how great he feels falco is in Sm4sh, with that being his main and fox as as secondary. I bodied his Falco with my high tier characters, then we were about even when he went high tier fox. He still denies tiers, so this video will be the final attack.

[@ninjabear17]

I loved the editing in this video. Very high quality, well done.

[@maxyw419]

Huh. I had just decided that Villager and Mewtwo were going to be my mains. I hadn't seen the tier list in a while, and thought they were both mid-tiers. I am now surprised to find they are both this high. Anyways, Omni has a great video on why picking a high/top-tier is best, if you want to see, although it applies to Melee and Brawl the most.

[@iLuvMapIeStory]

yup those characters are so good. not bad choices when wanting to pick a main!

[@increto9416]

*Main You have one main, any other characters are secondarys/counterpicks/pockets

[@maxyw419]

Mootoo=main Killager=secondary

[@squarerootof9001]

Love the visuals in this one, looks really nice and conveys the points and melds with the audio nicely :) Hope to see more like this soon yo I love it!

[@thecookiespartan2823]

Can u do one on stage picking, striking maps, counter picks? I still don't get those that well. Thanks!

[@antehman2912]

Its simple, just look up 2016 eve ruleset. Or I could tell you, if you still don't understand.

[@thecookiespartan2823]

+Antehman 0 tell me plz. That would be very helpful, if I could take a bit of ur time.

[@StarShade0]

JTails did an amazing video about that a few weeks ago. Consider looking that up.

[@advveo]

alrighty here's the breakdown. this is the ruleset used by most tournaments now: Starter Stages: Smashville, Final Destination, Battlefield, Town & City, Lylat Cruise Counterpick Stages: Duck Hunt, Dreamland Game 1: both players choose their character at the same time. players then play rock paper scissors to start stage striking. the winner strikes 1 stage (starter stages only), the loser strikes two stages, and then the winner picks one of the two remaining starter stages to play on. alternatively, both players can just agree to play on a stage if they don't feel like striking (usually smashville) Game 2: the winner of game 1 bans a stage, and the loser of game 1 picks any of the remaining stages to play on (starter or counterpick). the winner of game 1 chooses a character first, and then the loser chooses. this gives the loser the option of character-counterpicking if they want. Game 3+: the same rules as Game 2, except there is a rule that is often used called "Dave's Stupid Rule". this rule says that you cannot counterpick someone to a stage that you won on previously. so, let's say on game 1, you win on smashville. on game 2, you lose. so, this means on game 3, you *cannot* take your opponent to smashville even if they do not ban it, because you already won a game on it. if you want, you can also do a "double-blind pick" for game 1, where both players tell a third party which character they're going to pick beforehand to ensure their opponent can't counterpick them game 1. it's kinda complicated but after a couple tournaments it becomes easy to remember. if you want to get the hang of it, i recommend playing on Anther's Ladder (google it). it's a wifi ladder that uses tournament rules for ranked matches, and it automates the whole system for you. if you play on anthers for awhile, you'll get familiar with the system.

[@thecookiespartan2823]

***** thanks man. really helpful!

[@asdioh7371]

This will be massively helpful for newer players, or ones that don't really understand tier lists. Great job!

[@NerdEnthusiast]

Kirby has the potential to be a lot higher on the Tier list than a lot of people give him credit for. Mid-mid-tier at least IMO.

[@hylianfelldragon1308]

Kirby is top tier in Smash 64!

[@tarikbihorac5025]

nah he just has alot of jank. but once u learn how to avoid all that jank kirby isnt all that great.

[@darienmiller1032]

Nah, brawl Kirby is mid tier, smash 4 Kirby has proven consistently to be an abysmal character in the smash 4 meta. And now in Ultimate, he's the worst character in the game 😐

[@ahmadkazan7994]

No.

[@lesliem9271]

I love how you always include examples for everything. Thanks for showing Axe vs. SilentWolf that's one of my favourite matches ever.

[@JediBusouSonic]

Good stuff, informative as always!

[@Saved___]

This video was so well made. The art work, the editing, the analysis! Amazing. Keep up the great work MSC!!!

[@JadeyCatgirl99]

Everyone let's start Operation MKTT (Make Kirby Top Tier). If we all work together can turn around the metagame.

[@nicholasneyhart396]

I am in.

[@phayeta9370]

I'm in!

[@yaboymatch]

Very nice! The dialog cuts kind of awkwardly at the end of the video, but overall great work. Can't wait for more of these!

[@Rinin.]

what an abrupt ending o.O

[@revenant7709]

thas what she said

[@jello788]

thats sad

[@7cross288]

lol

[@NauticalNoey]

Loving the informative content in this! The extra flavor or little animations is also really nifty! Keep 'em coming! ^ ^

[@ChainsSSB]

TFW Lucina's 2 tiers under Marth in the 4BR Tier List

[@sween1761]

Why wouldn't he be? He has almost all the same tools and many of them work better because of the tipper (which can also net super early kills on a lot of the cast, of course)

[@Evello37]

The reason Marth jumped up the tier list is not because he got more mains, but because he got patched SIGNIFICANTLY. Lucina definitely suffers in usage from being an inferior Marth, but it's also safe to say that Marth's tipper grants him both amazing kill power and safety on block that Lucina just doesn't have. He deserves to be a fair bit higher than her, it's just a question of how much.

[@supershoo4518]

actually lucina's combo game isn't quite as potent as marths. Lucina's attacks from the base of her blade have more knockback than marth's base, making it less effective for combos

[@RemixerUltimate]

+AnimefanRex actually due to balance patches their frame data is slightly different. Marth also has much better combo game and better kill potential due to the tipper hit box.

[@ultra6379]

What people usually forget to take account in when making a tier list is mu spread, where marth and lucina are near identical in. Now I do think marth should be higher then lucina since he has the ability to kill earlier and combo better then lucina, and he can ledge trump tipper f-smash, assuming the opponent regrabs the ledge. Therefore marth does a bit better in the mu's they share (could be good, bad, even, etc)

[@tofuki404]

I really like this style of video. The little kirby drawings are adorable and make the video much more entertaining.

[@TheWaffleState]

I main Game & Watch and Mario, Mario I Would Consider High Tier, And Game & Watch Mid, To Low... But I Play Very Good With Both...

[@Waff1e_]

TheWaffleState yes it’s a fellow waffle!

[@retrohero2762]

Damn, you did a great job on this. Very informative with great editing and clarity. Keep it up👌

[@axeltalkssmash8608]

Man I hope we get a patch 1.1.7. I'm so tired of this Diddy Kong/Cloud meta. It's so boring. Personally I thought the Sheik/ZSS meta was way more exciting.

[@revenant7709]

Sheik/ZsS ? more like Sheik/Sheik meta xD. no but seriously, i totally agree with you. ZsS and Sheik had crazy good combos and set ups and the potential to end a match super fast. Diddy/Cloud/Mario...not that much. GF with any of those characters are boring to watch for me

[@revenant7709]

hell. Nairo vs VoiD and MrR in smash con and Marss vs VoiD in ktar saga were way more exciting than fucking evo finals ._.

[@axeltalkssmash8608]

agreed. although kame was pretty hype. But it seems like going forward without any more patches we all better get used to watching diddy and cloud auto win neutral by running away and pressing down B. ZZZZZZzzzzzz.......

[@revenant7709]

AxelTalksSmash well...if thats the case then this game will die in the next 2 or 3 years. I hope they buff ZsS and sheik in something (not pre 1.1.5 cuz aparently for some reason the patch team thought they were OP...even tho they werent) because they nerf their main ways of killing without giving them something in return...what a balance kappa. I prefer buffs instead of nerfs from now on (even on top tiers)

[@axeltalkssmash8608]

I think Cloud and Diddy need nerfs. Their neutrals are just too ridiculously safe and their MU spreads are just too good. But other than that, I'm all for buffs.

[@kasperbahrentz5598]

Wow, AMAZING quality man! It must have taken a looooooong time to make this!

[@Xer0x_03]

I don't care what anyone says about teir lists, Kirby is love, Kirby is life.

[@masondexheimer]

This video must have taken days to complete and clearly has a lot of effort put into it. I hope you continue this series because it is really entertaining.

[@Draster999]

TIRES DON EXITS!!!

[@saeki02_]

You literally just copied a comment above dude

[@gandir-ih8ju]

THEN HOW CARS WALK

[@user-fo4ue9mo4z]

*_-Cars Don’t Walk-_*

[@isaacthered]

gandir42343 Crass role u idiet.

[@-kxvin-5239]

tears don't exist

[@publickip]

I'm a big fan of these kind of videos (and anything you put out in general) so I look forward to seeing a lot more in the future

[@IMGhost589]

''Pushing his limit" wow

[@diegocazorla9073]

I took a look at the immense tiers. Everyone of the tier list shown near the end is different. That is some dedication my friend.

[@farofa2843]

One of the factors that made melee tournaments really boring to me was the tier list, everyone uses only fox and sheik most of the time. That's why i like ultimate more than melee. I'm tired of pretending melee is better than ultimate, the game is broken, most of the characters had to be balanced but due to sakurai's small time to work, the game is probably worse than it was pretended. And also the smash community is one of the most toxic, so i'm scared what could happen if i said something like this to them. It's my opinion, i think ultimate is far better than melee.

[@MasterKirby]

Great answer bro! :)

[@SSJ22Terris]

Woah, that felt like it ended a little abruptly. I'm not sure what I was expecting though. Regardless, very good video. As always, you produce some of the best quality content for Sm4sh! ; )

[@Percevalko]

Tiers are meant to be broken. GENKAI WO KOERU

[@dangerboatsouth]

I really enjoyed this special new series, keep up the good work, also yoshi's pose at 5:14 is hilarious, he's like, main me like one of your top tiers.

[@RofICopters]

lol what's with the link to the 1.1.3 tier list in the description?

[@mysmashcorner]

Woops, fixed.

[@Itzssky]

I really love how different this video is from your usuals, also I think you should ask some questions at the outro with your voice like what did you think of my explanation? or something along those lines it would a nice touch imo! Keep up the good work btw ^_^

[@neph312]

Cloud is For Glory tier

[@revenant7709]

lol amen to that

[@akiriolu4117]

Dantiel Barbosa that would a casual would say

[@roman3mp1r39]

this video was just the type of high quality stuff I've come to expect from you! :D

[@Nintega2K]

I have 1 really good question so please reply. This is about how Meta Knight affects the Brawl "Metagame" (I put it in quotes, cause again, no pun intended) But so many players consider meta knight to be so broken, that he should be outright banned from any & all competitive play. While there are some Meta Knight banned Tournaments & i think Glitch 2 might ban Meta Knight, Meta Knight currently isn't universially banned, & that it's up to the TOs to determine if he should be banned or not. If the Brawl Backroom banned Meta Knight across all tournaments, how would it affect the Metagame? Who would rise or drop because of it?

[@alfredgrant2855]

According to his video, characters who went generally even or even had an advantage across the cast but lost hard to Meta Knight (like Ike) would rise unless they fell hard to the next top tier

[@Nintega2K]

I Doubt Ice Climbers would dominate the Brawl Metagame, Since They're essentially Brawl's Melee Fox

[@mysmashcorner]

It would affect the metagame quite a lot if MK was banned universally. There's too much to analyze for me to answer that in this comment.

[@kajuanlockett8980]

When Metaknight was banned the competitive scene flooded with IC's. The only good solution would be to keep them both or ban them both, but banning two characters in a game doesn't look like a good move for the community ultimately leading the MK being unbanned again. He wasn't banned for long anyways. But if they were both removed Brawl would be a lot more balanced. Similar to Shiek in Melee. Although Fox, Falco and Marth are the best characters, MAJORITY of the low tiers have a terrible matchup against Melee Shiek making them almost impossible to use. Along with other things as well obviously.

[@supershoo4518]

man the production value in this one is extremely high it was a really fun watch

[@ryanleonard6548]

Melee Tier list Pichu is always on the bottom ;-;

[@Vin50000]

kirby

[@JDizzle_98]

It's actually Kirby. And some lists he is above Bowser.

[@aqrifyln6719]

I'd buy Pichu DLC.

[@SupLuiKir]

If there was a Fox clone that did significantly more damage on his kill moves (and more knockback due to KBG), but took self-damage equal to the difference in damage each time he used one of those moves, successful or not, would Fox-clone be better than Fox? Let's say for example that each of Fox-clone's kill moves was adjusted to kill at half the damage required of Fox.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

+0xFFF1 Probably not, if said Fox clone was also easier to kill, had weaker non-kill moves, had less range, had their kill moves made escapable via SDI, had combo moves removed due to change in angle, had gimping moves modified into non-gimping ones, had more ending lag on side B, had no hitbox and lower range and speed on up B, and had a shine that had a less useful knockback angle and could be SDI'd out of. Now take those changes, remove the whole "significantly more damage on kill moves", apply them to Pikachu, and you've got Pichu. Yes, if Pichu actually have the recoil mechanic because its kill moves _were_ made more powerful and had less of Pikachu's useful tools modified into less useful ones, then it'd probably not be only slightly above Kirby. But the thing is ... Pichu really doesn't give up much of Pikachu's advantages for any of its own. It's just basically a worse version of Pikachu with some boons that you can count on one hand.

[@bruhbruh4473]

I quit playing Sm4sh a couple months ago, but I still love watching your videos. Thanks for the upload.

[@offdabean]

Rock, Paper, and Scissors are top teir

[@hylianfelldragon1308]

Amusing

[@DerZoidSplash]

I really enjoyed this mostly due to the fact that this video was made with such quality! Good job dude, hoping for more c:

[@fade6827]

Better nerf greninja

[@Troy-ry5pp]

82$

[@NallCalmer]

Its nerf or nothin.

[@shyb1233]

Better nerf genji

[@shyb1233]

I'm sorry

[@jackrowland4629]

Oh my god those animations are the cutest things ever. Can't wait to see more from this series

[@jacobpullen6949]

I discovered something cool today while playing. You can cancel an air dodge with any Z-air and maybe some other moves. You can cancel the Airdodge at any time. The biggest use I've found for it so far is air dodging through a move and then Z-airing to get rid of a lot of the end lag and put out a possible punish. I've been doing some testing and it really helps Samus against Cloud and Villager. Can you do some testing to see if it has any potential? Remember, it works with every Z-air (and maybe a few more moves)

[@Graybat12]

Actually I have to make a correction here. A game's tiers don't solidify with age, they solidify with play. This is why Melee has a more solid tier list than Smash 64, despite having more characters and being 2 years younger, because it has extraordinarily more people playing it and pushing it's meta and has been competitive for longer.

[@sprytt]

And when you the game is older, it has more time for people to be playing with it. So yeah, it does solidify with age!

[@hi-i-am-atan]

It's just that the rate at which a tier list solidifies with age differs from game to game, based on how competitively viable it's seen and how big its playerbase is. But that still takes time, and the more time a game's been around the more time that play can create the tier list. It's not so much that time's wrong and play's correct, it's that they're both factors.

[@sprytt]

Arctangent Eh. I see your point, but it's more in favour of time then play!

[@Graybat12]

***** Of course time is a factor, but without any play, it's irrelevant. Think of it like this. The amount of time and the amount of the game played per unit of time equals the total amount of hours played. And these hours all have to be competitive. Time itself does nothing. It's the actual gaming itself that matters. Time is just one of the factors to the formula.

[@sprytt]

Graybat12 Yeah ok

[@pozitron3792]

Dude, I love the artistic visuals you used in this video

[@michaellyga4726]

tiers don exits

[@mini-_]

Great video, the information made me really think with you on this. I believe a tier list actually exist, but things can change around while the meta is still evolving. New strategies can be found, but it's important to recognize a better character from a character that has a strategy that works because no one expects it and it will be a fluke. That is hard though. I loved the animation too by the way!

[@willier47]

This is probably why people think Mewtwo is good. He has shitty moveset imo. When people learn his tricks he's done. He is just a glass Cannon.

[@Alienrun]

Yeah pretty much...Izaw was able to beat Abodongo's Mewtwo using Link! lol

[@dandazed5846]

That's sad because I loved seeing Mewtwo finally reach the top. The strongest pokémon is now truly the strongest pokémon. Sadly, not for long...

[@alfredgrant2855]

Beating a top player in friendlies doesn't really mean much. There''s no pressure of an audience nor the motivation of tourney money/award so we can't assume Abadango was playing optimally

[@Alienrun]

Alfred Grant Well...it was a money match.

[@iLuvMapIeStory]

i disagree. mewtwo has an amazing moveset imo

[@LuxrayX]

Great video. The drawings/animations were very cute! Sophia Feesh did a great job =)

[@TheEggBoi]

All my mains are bottom tiers ;-;

[@knacka4731]

I love that comic artstyle you used in the beginning.

[@smashbruh7266]

Is Diddy actually the best character in the game?!

[@Evello37]

Probably him, Sheik, or Mario currently. Maaaaaybe Cloud, but he's dropped off hard lately.

[@revenant7709]

+Evello37 No way sheik is the best. Probably Mario because of results

[@Evello37]

Dantiel Barbosa Why not Sheik? She has few bad MU's, two top 10 players, and in terms of overall tournament results she is surpassed only by Diddy. She also has a lot of tech and optimization that could make her even better, since current Sheik mains still flub her tricky stuff often and SD a lot. Mario has had great results with Ally and ANTi, but it looks like ZeRo's Diddy is catching Ally fast, and ANTi had to actually switch off Mario to beat Zinoto. And beyond those two, Mario's overall results can't compete with Diddy and Sheik.

[@revenant7709]

Mario's results this year are waaaay better than Sheik or Diddy. A character like shiek that struggles THAT MUCH to get a kill cant be the best in the game. Also without VoiD or MrR...she would not be getting top 8 placements (there wasnt a sheik in top 8 in shine2016) Characters that have won major Tournaments so far this year (after 1.1.5) are Mewtwo Mario (3times) Rosalina ZsS...thats it Sheik is a good character but both VoiD and MrR are trying new characters for a reason...sheik is not that good. All of her matches...her oponent lives to like 190% which means max rage and characters like ZsS, Mario, Cloud and ryu (common characters in the meta) love rage. Sheik is top 3 at the very best

[@revenant7709]

Evello37 also please do not count results prior to the nerfs cuz thats back when sheik was the best, not anymore

[@mocha4301]

This is honestly a great video and even if they take a long time to make I would love to see more.

[@squidsofty8507]

Tier List= People's way of shitting on the fighters they hate

[@darylsdog9521]

hehe ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@penguindrummer252]

Everyone plays Sheik but everyone also hates her.

[@Fauxmale]

If that were the case, Sonic and Rosa would be bottom tier, lol.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

Tiers = Tool for people skilled enough to play in tournaments to know which character will give them the best chance of winning tournament matches and, in turn, more money.

[@squidsofty8507]

DrCoeloCephalo I know that, I was just joking, but I have actually seen people use tiers to shit on characters they hate.

[@AnthoBantho]

I LOVE THAT SUBTLE REFERENCE AT 3:00 !!! (Picture of Cloud) (Mentions "pushing of limits")

[@XxCOMICxFUSIONxX]

Notification squad

[@tjwvjk2195]

Yep

[@CaptnMarioCH]

Congrats on being first

[@DyllonStejGaming]

This was really well made. Nice Job!

[@rogueports1]

tfw you main "low tier garbage" Jiggilypuff.

[@NCozy]

Listen you...

[@cdose]

shes so good Kappa

[@markospas6249]

I don't understand why people think jigglypuff sucks, although I don't main her, I know she has amazing air game, and rest is an amazing move. Besides weight, I don't see a problem.

[@rogueports1]

yeah, her air game is so good, as seen with hungrybox at evo this year. even though people are salty, I'm still glad a character got its much needed representation.

[@Vin50000]

he is probably talking smash 4 not melee and if you are smash 4 she dies to early, rest can't be combo'd into reliably ,it kills at a resonable percent (aka 50 thats bad for rests end lag )and horrible hit box that can't even be combo'd into anymore ,slow ground game , horrible grab ,extremely bad match ups against sword characters and top tiers

[@ProperDev]

Insane work was done on this video and I love it. Amazing work.

[@carlbloke8797]

Randy Becker ikr

[@chrisblack9425]

1:08 lol that tier list is complete bullshit. must not be a real one

[@illuminaticonfirmed9189]

well its the "official" one lol

[@ruven510]

It is the official one >_>

[@DWZBT]

looks decent to me

[@chrisblack9425]

Char 11 nah for example it has falcon way too low. thats not the offical smash 4 tier list ive seen the offical one samus is like number 2 here she is below mario which is laughably in accurate.

[@DWZBT]

chris black Falcon has actually dropped really, really, hard since last year. Reasons for that were mostly stated in this video, where ZeRo basically placed falcon in C tier too

[@ShinyTomb]

By the way, if you are using Ryu and the Lucario is right next to the edge, you can dropdown and do a true shoryukan. You get some invincibility frames on startup which helps. This is for when Lucario's aurasphere doesn't hit you while you're on the ledge. Regular shoryukan might work but it gets less invincibility.

[@davidpouet1372]

Very nice work !! Great video, instructing and well edited. Keep up :-)

[@spaghettiguy6562]

MSC, I really love this art style. Great job!!

[@TaoPhysiques]

To add on what the video said, the purpose of tier lists is to give players of the competitive scene of a game a general idea of which characters are beneficial to winning vs. characters that will most likely cost you a game.Tiers aren't exclusive to fighting games, but extend to Mobas, FPS, and even rpg (like Smogon's tiers for Pokemon). Without tiers, players can't say exactly who are the best characters to play if you want to win.

[@LazerLord10]

How much do the 'gaps' between tiers matter? Like, what's the difference between the top of the D tier and the bottom of the C tier?

[@CaptainFalchion]

Great video as always, MSC. Like you said, its very easy to pick a top tier, but for me, I've always been a character loyalist since Melee, and I play the characters I enjoy the most. I don't like to participate too much into tier list talk, as lots of silly arguments can happen, but discussing it with the right people is fun and interesting. To the people complain about patches and the fact they have to learn new things every update: Sure, it may be harder and take longer to learn when the game has changed, but I'm super glad patches exist in Smash 4. It keeps the game fresh, new and exciting.I would not like playing this game with pre-patch Diddy Kong or Luigi still existing, or pre patch Bayo. The patches overall balance the game and enhance the experience for not only competitive players, but for everyone. It makes the game more fun in my opinion. And I know many people agree

[@LessThanPi]

great job give Sofia props great job on all of the art and mini animations.

[@lududelubin3011]

When you mentioned the confines of the metagame, a good thing to bring up would have been the rise of Ice Climbers on the tier list (Brawl). Since the meta eventually shifted to less moving stages being legal, the Icies were able to perform better.