WHAT IS (AND ISN'T) QUEERBAITING?

An examination into accusations of queerbaiting, and what the term actually means.
(Also remember: I am doing a Q&A video when I'm back from Iceland, so if you have any questions, leave them in the comments!)

[@liz_3035]

JK Rowling being “progressive” and “good for the LGBTQ community” aged like milk

[@theblandcharlie822]

unpasteurized milk

[@freyathesage1749]

Aged like a jug of 2017 neo-nazi dog-whistling milk

[@shotgun6X]

She is becoming PROGRESSIVELY awful

[@ellewoodford262]

i dont understand why anyone ever thought she was progressive. i always thought it was stupid when she did that shit

[@Sophia-vk5bq]

Especially the "T" in LGBTQ.

[@gwhats]

People: Yuri On Ice is queerbaiting Me: They're *engaged*

[@elisagomez1297]

Laura de Beyer ansjwnjwjwjwjwjwjq spoilers!

[@sandrasofia8120]

Lol yeah. Some of the most well made gay love stories in anime

[@Andjelka99]

And I'm pretty sure they kissed. Yeah hand was covering "camera" angle but...

[@nomz3621]

@Neil Brown Is it because of the "Yuri" part?

[@Sunny-ek8sx]

Honestly idk i think you can watch the show with the mindset theyre just friends and it would work that way too

[@alicelemieux531]

And also, in Brooklyn 99 jake and Charles have a strong friendship that no one views as queerbaiting because the show actually portrays good and healthy same sex relationships so the two can coexist and we won’t question if something is queerbaiting because we know that the show runners aren’t afraid to actually portray a same sex relationship

[@zelamorre1126]

They also are very clever in how they get especially Holt and Kevin's relationship past censors. Getting a gay male kiss on television is sadly still something networks avoid like the plague. But Holt and Kevin's relationship doesn't suffer from lack of intimacy because they, as characters, view things like handshaking in public as scandalous PDA that turns them on. And also the bone scene makes it clear they, well, bone. Still sad that shows have to do that at all though.

[@alicelemieux531]

Zela Morre yeah I never thought of it like that but now that you say it it’s really clever!

[@quincycox4573]

Another thing that doesn’t make Jake and Charles relationship. Queer baiting is the very obvious boundaries that Jake has with Charles when he’s uncomfortable. :)

[@katyanims9822]

How about Rosa ? She came out as Bisexual, but all episodes of her isn't always about her sexuality, she still is just Rosa because her sexuality is just a part of her and not a personality. But the show doesn't completely ignores she's Bisexual and she dated two girls on other episodes, the other has been an ongoing relationship ! (idk I might've missed an episode, I hadn't catch up ;-;) Representation in Brooklyn 99 is so well done TwT

[@mzanahenriques]

This point is crucial as it allows for deep friendships to be portrayed without that uncomfortable 'what if' playing in the back of our heads. It sets Jake and Charles apart from Dean and Castieal and, let's dare, Steve and Bucky.

[@actresstowardbroadway5733]

I still maintain that Cursed Child was queerbaiting. They compared the way that Scorpius feels about Albus to how Snape felt about Lily. Then they just threw in that Scorpius asked out Rose to be like “but no homo though!”.

[@NishaWinchester]

Cursed Child was also just garbage in general.

[@poodychulak]

Is this bi erasure?

[@nothingpenguin7576]

I just saw the stage production and let me tell you that it was even gayer than the script

[@nothingpenguin7576]

@@poodychulak I'd say no, because the only confirmed romantic attraction is to a woman. If he was bisexual and they were happy making him bisexual, they should have acknowledged his attraction to men as well. If there is no acknowledgment that he likes both, then it is not bisexual representation. Unfortunately, despite having hardly any (let alone positive) interactions with Rose and having an extremely close relationship, more than once compared to straight, romantic relationships, which heavily features longing due to separation (which they play very romantic music over), jealousy, and devotion with Albus, the dynamic with Albus is never referred to as romantic and Scorpius ends up asking Rose out in the end. Sure, he could be bi! That would be awesome! But if you only acknowledge the attraction to the opposite sex and don't mention attraction to the same sex, then the character is not Bi representation, and therefore calling him straight isn't erasure. There's nothing to erase.

[@nothingpenguin7576]

@@itstheazuresystem911 Maybe! But if they don't acknowledge his attraction to men in the slightest then it's not representation

[@011mph]

i was completely fine with Dumbledore's sexuality not really being talked about in the Harry Potter series. I mean it was from the perspective of his child students and why would they care about or even really discuss his sexuality? plus it wasn't needed for the plot. But it is very disappointing and just outright insulting that Dumbledore's sexuality won't be addressed in the Fantastic Beast series. How can you claim you're "so woke" and an ally for the LGBT+ community when you string your LGBT audience along for praise and money but don't really give us actual representation?

[@pewpewpew3212]

zynbw it could’ve still been shown somehow. Like maybe he has a boyfriend or something

[@godot8694]

It was shown. The mirror scene was clear. They couldn't have him on a relationship or anything similar. His love interest is the main villain ffs

[@Junosensei]

In the end, the second film actually has Dumbledore try to correct another group of people by saying he was more than friends with Grindlewald (and hilariously gets ignored). Yay? Nay? My hope is that this is more or less a lead-in that will cultivate the exact exploration we haven't gotten yet. My fear is that it will only further queerbait.

[@LilPinkFuzzyMonster]

The movie was crap, but it -did- address it. Did you even watch the film?

[@sbcd7808]

I agree that it was fine not to be addressed in the books and infact I think it would be weird if it was. She didn't mention that J.K Rowling told the film makers to stop them putting in Dumbledore talking about a woman. She only told the people after that. After the public was told when looking back the relationship is quite obvious. Also you seem to be speaking like you know what will happen in the rest of the series. Also I know this was posted before Crimes of Grindelwald but that movie shows that you were wrong as they very clearly show the relationship between Dumbledore and Grindelwald with the mirror scene.

[@Slaterybooker]

I am gay and I know its common knowledge that Betty and Veronica are both love interests for Archie. That scene was more for straight men than lesbians.

[@christiegreenwood2642]

Exactly. That's not representation, it's meant to keep the straight dudes watching. It's for them; that's it. They should try having two boys kiss and have the camera lovingly zoom in.

[@justincaviness]

It did also drew in a friend of mine (who is a lesbian) hoping for representation. She got upset the moment Jughead wasn't asexual. I wasn't an Archie fan, so I instead gave up when it got too ridiculous.

[@PutBoxOnMe]

Cheryl and Tony is where my lesbian ass gets the representation my community deserve

[@futurestoryteller]

I'm just fascinated by a culture shift that sees a promo featuring two underage teenage girls in cheerleadering outfits kissing to be an insidious marketing strategy designed to prey on the desires of _gay_ people. It would almost be laughable to me, if it didn't somehow seem disrespectful to the people who are so soberly taking it *so* seriously.

[@ellab3516]

That's almost worse though, suggesting that lesbians or just two girls kissing for a cheer routine who are friends should be sexualized for straight men. Even the fact that they kissed for the judges and for the people who would be watching the routine is unnecessary sexualization, which is a whole other issue.

[@solomonrivers2882]

“[It’s] so close to being self aware that it’s almost funny.” That’s the most accurate review of Riverdale to ever be said.

[@silverfox9648]

English isn't my first language: what does self aware in this context mean?

[@gabrielavictoria2013]

silverfox Basically that the show knows it’s bad, dumb, etc. This is shown in lines spoken by the characters, but it’s a little hard to explain.

[@luke-alex]

​@@silverfox9648 The fictional storyline echoes reality-in the story, the kiss is being used (by Veronica) for manufactured drama. But in reality, the kiss is _also_ being used (by the show's creators) for manufactured drama. (By manufactured, I mean there is no follow-through, it's ultimately a meaningless kiss, which is what makes it bad writing in the case of the writers; it's designed to deceive us). If it was done knowingly, that's being self-aware (it would be making fun of itself; moreover, it would be doing so in a very smart way). But Sarah believes it wasn't done knowingly, it was a case of "life imitates art", i.e. synchronicity. On a side note, I find it hard to believe the show _isn't_ making fun of itself at times. So, self-aware is meaning: is the show (the writers etc.) self-aware enough to know that it is (and, _why_ it is) a bad show? But more specifically, is the show's writing self-referential in regard to specific failings _of_ the show's writing?

[@usagichanp]

hooo, the JK Rowling being "woke" comment aged POORLY

[@joshuaminnich3896]

lgb+ kinda but she is sooo agent the t... and she needs to care about the whole community

[@HeavenKnight]

@gay korean it's not like she particularly gives a fuck about lesbians either

[@ekki1993]

@@joshuaminnich3896 You can't be "kinda in for some parts of LGBT+". She's a bigot and we need to stop looking for a middleground for her bullshit.

[@overgrownkudzu]

@@joshuaminnich3896 nah, that ship has sailed, she has successfully scorched that earth

[@OtakuUnitedStudio]

In a way, it kind of aged well since most people use "woke" sarcastically now. She's "woke" in the sense that she's pretending to be socially conscious when she isn't.

[@paperbackwriter1111]

Man, the Adventure Time accusation is pleasantly outdated now.

[@LuckoDaStars]

At least with Adventure Time the relationships were actually more organic and actually had time to have these people interact with each other and I can see the natural Chemistry Between the characters

[@blixer8384]

I had always heard that the reason the writers only teased at the relationship because they weren’t allowed to. As the show wouldn’t be aired in other countries if they made it explicit. So they saved the explicit confirmation for the last episode.

[@sandrasofia8120]

I still hate bubbline lol how can anyone ship that

[@mophead_xu]

@@sandrasofia8120 am a simple minded bisexual. theyre both hot. so thats why.

[@lunariumaqua3033]

@@sandrasofia8120 By the law of the internet if it can be ship, they will be ship.

[@andysmith5806]

It's funny how the people who spout the whole "Oh why can't they just be platonic?" thing don't bat an eye at the fact that almost every piece of media that has a presumably straight male and female lead seem to have a compulsion to make them a couple. I mean, why couldn't they just be friends? Edit: Wow I was not expecting this much of a response to my drunk ranting.

[@jestersudz6085]

ik. like i physically had to stop watching brooklynn 99 because they made jake and amy a couple even tho they had no romantic chemistry at all and even tho i wanted to watch the show i just lost intrest.

[@andysmith5806]

saliorseal art I know it’s ridiculous that everyone is fine with that but then again people assumed I was dating my male friend and that my girlfriend was my sister. Even though I’m Australian and she’s British.

[@jestersudz6085]

@@andysmith5806 dang dude that sucks. ppl should just be allowed to be friends.

[@andysmith5806]

@@jestersudz6085 I thought it was kind of funny as my male friend is a flamboyant gay man and I'm butch. The mental gymnastics were amazing.

[@jubileemoquin]

I’m one of those people who gets frustrated by people shipping what is obviously just a cute friendship & let me tell you it is just as annoying for straight couples as LGBT. This may be because I’m a Bi demisexual but I just find it really weird that people constantly have to shove romance into a situation. So not everyone who doesn’t understand shipping culture is only focusing on gay relationships they’re uncomfortable with. Sometimes characters really should just stay friends. (That being said, people can ship whatever makes them happy, I just don’t understand why they need to)

[@rofeitl]

I felt so bad for Alex Hirsh because he tried so hard to get lgbt representation and kept getting shut down

[@fruitcake6372]

Lydia Feitl I feel like Wendy would be BIG bisexual ngl, and I don’t care what ANYONE says,, Blubs and Durland are OTP

[@PlanetZoidstar]

If only me put that much effort into making Mabel a likable protagonist.

[@theresisty7122]

@@fruitcake6372 I agree. It actually felt weird that they didn't kiss in the final episode.

[@alexandredesouza3692]

He did? I didn't pick up on anything. Edit: I watched the rest of the video. He did, I just forgot.

[@uwukotoa]

Lavender Left Wendy is *absolutely* bisexual and you can pry Blubs and Durland from my cold, dead hands.

[@Inkspeckle]

the "werewolves were a metaphor for HIV all along" becomes 100x worse when you remember that Lupin was not only deliberately infected by another werewolf, but also a LESS THAN 11 YEAR OLD CHILD AT THE TIME

[@zannis5441]

*GOOD GOD*

[@pollywatson8099]

I'm pretty sure he was like 4/5 which, uh, yikes??

[@user-cy8li6xt3s]

And that one of the three named werewolf characters in the books (lupin, Bill and Fenir Greyback), one of them explicitly goes after exclusively children. Not the best choice if that was what she was trying to say, and the analogy falls apart even more when you look at Bill, who was bitten by a werewolf who was not transformed at the time, making him a half werewolf? idk it just feels like a bad afterthought

[@foreverdead1248]

Queerbaiting: Stiles Stilinski being asked if he likes boys and having a poignant pause, but never bringing it up again Not Queerbaiting: Lena giving Kara flowers for saving her life

[@gretep]

Also queerbating: the actors of Stiles and Derek (forgot the name of Stiles’ actor, Derek’s I know is Tyler Hoeclin) cuddling and saying they’ll give the fans more ‘Sterek content’ in order to get more votes

[@platinum_noelle]

@@gretep I believe the Dylan and Tyler actually said they ship those two, but they don't have any actual control over the writing so the relationship not being canon really isn't their fault.

[@gretep]

Platinum_Noelle that doesn’t change the fact that they tried to get more votes by cuddling on some boat. I understand they were fine with the idea of their characters getting together, but using that for their benefit is still queerbaiting (especially if they knew the writers wouldn’t make it canon). But, y’know, Teen Wolf has always been kinda queerbait-y

[@natl5692]

But stiles his bi... And multiple statements and he clearly like boys and girls But their he got actually 2 girls

[@aliciasanchez6863]

Stiles was absolutely bisexual

[@pgrankin1]

Anyone else notice that there are vastly more openly bisexual women in shows than men? (Not saying there are no bisexual men like in Lucifer just saying there’s a lot less)

[@gocelotspice5766]

Yeah I noticed that. It might be because overall it seems that their are more bisexual women than men in the real world, but i wouldn't be surprised if their is another reason for that.

[@DrGregoryHouseIT]

It's because most creators are straight and of course they prefer bi women because they satisfy their lesbian fetish but they could lay them.

[@thecrap17yearsago35]

Irl there’s only less bimen because of how we perceive masculinity, bimen are automatically assumed gay but however biwomen are assumed straight socially

[@meowww997]

that’s very true but if u want some good male bisexual rep i got a couple shows for u : big mouth and supermansion (not a lot but i def recommend)

[@arqueiroXD]

@@DrGregoryHouseIT Is more that man have a problem seeing how a man can like another men...it's not easy. There is a lot of things that make this happen...but in general is really difficult to sit down and understand this. A woman is different...is easy seeing why a woman would like another woman because of the they understand why...(I already saw one book saying that is more that man is disgusted by the though to be with another man.). This is also the reason that we see a lot of lesbians,because it easier for a straight one understand why she would like woman.

[@TheBlackmoon918]

Regarding Steven Universe, Sugar has stated that she actually couldn't depict queer pairings in the first seasons of SU and it's only been relatively recently that they've been able to. The show has slowly gotten more explicitly queer as it's gone on but when the series started, Sugar wasn't sure if she was going to be able to show the wedding episode - even though it was (supposedly) planned very early on.

[@Gloss613]

AND NOW ONE OF STEVEN'S MOMS GOT OVER HER ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE (FEMALE) LOVE OH HER LIFE TO THEN BE PAIRED WITH ANOTHER FEMALE GEM PearlxBismuth forever

[@KyleRayner12]

I like to think it went like this: Rebecca Sugar: I want to use this show to depict a variety of relationships, including lesbian and polyamorous relationships, in an interesting, nuanced way. Studio: Yeah, you can do that... when a musical about Alexander Hamilton and the history of the national bank gets popular! Hah! Sugar: Just you wait...

[@GOFFBITZH666]

I thought the wedding episode was because Rebecca wanted to annoy Russian censorship or somethin’.

[@coffeeaddict9605]

@@Gloss613 Can then Pearl/Bismuth became canon ♡

[@mattiecastillo2683]

@@GOFFBITZH666 The wedding episode itself was just something she was passionate about in general to the point that she threatened to quit if it wasn't allowed to go through. What she did to annoy the censors was put Ruby in a dress and Sapphire in a tux because a lot of countries had recast the tomboyish Ruby as a male character.

[@paksgarrion3252]

I'm ace, I am also incredible dense when it comes to understanding the romantic interactions on screen, so I watch for the obvious clues, the music, eyes meeting, etc. It is bloody frustrating when you see these done in same sex couples, only for it to be brushed off. I'm like ALL THE SIGNS WERE THERE WHAT AM I MISSING!!!

[@tortis6342]

I’m just stupid in general. I didn’t realize two of my friends were dating until they literally said it out loud. They’d been sitting practically in each other’s laps every day, and it didn’t hit me until someone else asked how long they had been dating and my only thought was “wait what?”

[@PuppyLove2468]

Same, but I'm also oblivious when it comes to stories, so things that aren't heavily implied or explicitly said tend to fly over my head only for people to talk about them while I have no clue what they mean

[@lifeontheledgerlines8394]

Ace aro squad let's go!

[@ranbummerz729]

If you want to see ace representation, you should watch BoJack Horseman! Todd is Ace

[@selfdestructivecat4922]

Are you me?

[@christiegreenwood2642]

Also, women kissing on TV is acceptable because of the male gaze. Don't forget that. It only counts as gay and degenerate or whatever the excuse is when it's not meant to titillate heteronormative dudes. Oh, and that HIV thing enrages me so much. I can't be as subtly and gracefully sarcastic about this absolute shitshow as you. It just pisses me off so badly. It's so absurd, I first thought it was one of those "the sorting hat is trans" jokes. Ugh. But aw, Brooklyn 99.... * hearts *

[@TheMrVengeance]

Yup, thought this as well. That bit of the women kissing in the Riverdale trailer might not have been queerbaiting, not on purpose anyway, and more a way of hooking horny dudes into the show.

[@pewpewpew3212]

My broke ass cant afford cable to watch Brooklyn 99 rip

[@ducklingscap897]

@@pewpewpew3212 It is on Netflix, amazon aaand the internet if you are too broke for that.

[@alanmorgan4826]

The HIV thing is unintentionally hilarious. If Rowling wanted werewolves to represent HIV, why the fuck did she write in Fenrir Greyback? And the wolfsbane potion doesn't make sense either.

[@FTMothman]

Christie Greenwood I also hate the HIV thing because it goes along with black woman(cause of the good ol governments of everywhere being dicks) and I hate every part of every government cause they did this

[@qwertyuiopaaaaaaa7]

I just get annoyed when people insist that basically every two male friends are considered queerbaiting. Sometimes two male characters are exhibiting a gay relationship, but sometimes their showing healthy male friendship. It’s annoying to have healthy portrayals of masculinity always called queerbaiting. I guess the only way two guys can be friends without having sex is if they are constantly competing and bullying each other...

[@blueestarr16]

Dean and Castiel are not two guys. Castiel is a gender less angel in a Man's body

[@hannahc2265]

Grimm she discusses this at the end of the video

[@justcallmeteacup4711]

The Nerd And The Muffin It's not specific to Dean and Castiel. Hannah C Yes she does but people still do it sometimes. Grimm I understand what you mean. I'm like that with Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes. They could be a good couple but their friendship is just a friendship and should stay that way. Too many male friendships in shows are entangled with jocky sports and fighting over some girl. It's nice when you have two really good friends that are just that - friends, especially since girls, for the most part, can get away with super close relationships without automatically being shipped. However, I would say that sometimes, like she said, the showrunners are purposely doing it. Prime example? Sherlock. They're supposedly "good friends" and a lot of people hate when you ship them, but the showrunners do literally everything to suggest otherwise (including the way they communicate with fans until more recently) because they know its what keeps a good chunk of their fanbase watching. Some shows toe the line on purpose.

[@austinlam8145]

a lot of people still ship guys who are constantly competing and bullying each other though rip

[@CassTeaElle]

Grimm couldn't agree more. I can't stand that. 13 Reasons Why did a great job of showcasing some really awesome, healthy, emotionally supportive, non-gay male friendships.

[@JayBleb]

2 ppl of the same sex: Hold hands, kiss, have sex "Ah, yes, such great friends :)" Man and woman: Talk to each other "Oooh you know what that means woop woop"

[@joyc.e.7511]

That's literally what happens, it's so annoying.

[@Olwwolf]

I recently watched ba reaction video from some straight dudes to the 3rd episode of Good Omens and they literally, I shit you not, commented on the phrase (accompanied by a longing stare and romantic music) "you go to fast for me" with "haha cause he drives so fast" and I almost cried

[@JayBleb]

@@Olwwolf Oh my god that scene 😭♥️

[@dan-gy4vu]

@@joyc.e.7511 this applies in real life too and it is really annoying. I cant just bring my female bestfriend in my house without my family being weird about it after.

[@joyc.e.7511]

@@dan-gy4vu It's the same whenever I mention hanging out with a male friend! Society is still so traditional when it comes to opposite sexes.

[@jameslightowler9010]

Sherlock... just... Sherlock. "Do you have a girlfriend" "Girlfriend, no. not really my area" "Oh..." "do you have a boyfriend, which is fine btw" "I know it's fine" "So you have a boyfriend" "No" Not denying he's gay at all, not confirming it. It's obvious, but still *somehow* vague enough that my mom & loads of casual viewers think he's straight. Sorry if this is too fandom-y but I hate this.

[@kittycatrina1861]

Yeah,, with dialogue like that i want to believe its something like "hes too afraid to come out rn uwu" but what its actually gonna mean is "we (the company) want to hint at a possible gay character so queer ppl get hooked, give us their money, and then when the time comes we make em straight to keep the cishets happy and avoid controversy! Yipee!" ;/

[@aliamcdaniel421]

Or he is ace?

[@robertwinslade3104]

Eh, maybe because I'm straight and don't tend to pick up on hints towards LGBTQ relationships very quickly, but I always read that scene more as Sherlock not really having much interest in sex/relationships either way. I will admit that I never saw the last episode of Sherlock, so I may be missing something but from what I remember of what I had seen of the show, Sherlock never really shows any sexual interest in anyone; even with the Irene Adler stuff, she was getting pretty flirty with him but he always seemed more interested in her intelligence because of how she nearly outsmarted him. Nothing romantic was confirmed to have actually happened between the two, and the only woman who we know Sherlock slept with was someone who he wasn't actually interested in and was just using for her connections.

[@jameslightowler9010]

@@robertwinslade3104 Yeah alright valid opinion

[@lukasabcdefg5606]

I always just saw it as Sherlock trait to not be interested in any romantic relationship. Just like his brother he might thing that it would be a silly thing to waste ones time.

[@elijahwagner9881]

I know this isn’t queer baiting, but the way gay couples are treated in tv compared to the way straight couples are treated is sooo annoying. For example, every straight couple of the main characters in Riverdale had a sex scene before the end of season 1. Kevin was in a relationship with Joaquin, but they had only been shown kissing. And then in season 2, he and Moose were still hinted to get together, but they only kissed before the end of the season.👀

[@susanq6030]

The straight couples in Riverdale are main characters. Of course they have more screen time.

[@oof-rr5nf]

@@susanq6030 Point. But: shows always shy away from sex scenes between men. Sex scenes that are straight or lesbian do not encounter similar hesitance.

[@pewpewpew3212]

Arunima Tiwari Exactly. I’ve even seen side characters (in other shows/movies) have more intimate scenes lol

[@oof-rr5nf]

@@pewpewpew3212 Word, dude. I don't watch a lot of television anymore so my knowledge is perhaps flawed, but the only television shows where I have seen sex scenes between men which are loving and erotic are Sense8, whose showrunner is a transwoman, and American Gods' first season, whose showrunner is a gay man. As for straight sex scenes - they are everywhere.

[@pewpewpew3212]

Arunima Tiwari Makes sense since Sense8 has a mostly lgbt cast. Hopefully in the future, we get more shows that aren’t afraid to show gay sex scenes. We have a loooonnnggg way to go though lol

[@BrianStorm742]

I'm going to address a relatively-minor-yet-not-irrelevant annoyance that I've had for years and can now finally put into words. I am fine with the all-too-familiar "straight teen girl obsessing over male (they're rarely female) same-sex couples in media" demographic. I really am. But. I have noticed that there's an increasing tendency among this particular group of people to start policing content creators on how to do queer representation, and often not in the right way. For example. I've seen hordes of straight teen girls over the years who have claimed that censored, yet explicit gay relationships are queerbaiting. The most recent example of this is Disney Channel's Andi Mack, which featured the network's first-ever openly gay main character as well as same-sex romance storylines and a coming out plot. To be clear: there was nothing ambiguous at all about this character's sexuality, he literally said the words "I'm gay." For this reason, Disney came under ENORMOUS scrutiny and the show was banned in multiple countries. In the series finale last week, a popular straight 'ship' shared a kiss, while the gay couple confirmed their love for each other by hand holding. While most queer people I talked to about this, felt that Disney Channel taking this giant step was an excellent achievement for the community that changed the lives of many queer youngsters, the reactions were less sweet among the aforementioned demographic. The straight teen girls accused Disney of queerbaiting, I assume because the cutesy ship didn't end up making out on screen, thereby completely negating the fact that this was actual, genuine queer representation that marked a milestone for a super influential network like Disney Channel, as well as for actual young queer people. I understand being frustrated by displays of homosexuality having to be toned down on some occasions, but this was not queerbaiting - far from it. Quite the opposite, actually. Conflating the two is harmful to a community that these people aren't part of themselves. This is by no means the only example. I can't even count the amount of times a straight fangirl has tried to lecture me on what does and doesn't make for 'realistic portrayals of same-sex relationships' (something they only seem to care about when a gay character ends up dating someone else than they hoped). If a network decides to portray genuine, real-life issues like gay couples fighting or breaking up, or one of the two shipped characters being straight and thus not interested, reactions from this demographic are generally fuming, despite the fact that, for queer people, it's important to show these topics. I could go on for hours and still not even scratch the surface. Why does this matter? Well, I can think of two reasons. First of all: being harsh towards content creators who are actually making amazing contributions to the queer community, and accusing them of being guilty of things they're not guilty of (like queerbaiting), scares other content creators away from also creating queer representation in their productions, which is bad for obvious reasons. Secondly, when creators do end up adding queer storylines to their productions, they'll increasingly try to cater to the obsessed straight teen girl demographic, by featuring things like unrealistic-but-adorable romance plots and whatnot. This is already happening on a large scale and severely deflates the value of queer representation; there aren't any real stories being shown, just the stories some straight folks will tune in to watch. If you belong to the demographic mentioned above: first of all, thank you for helping normalise being queer. But for the love of God, please realise that queer storylines in media aren't meant for you. Leave the criticism to actual queer people, because what you're doing right now only sets us back. Please realise that I'm not trying to attack anyone, but we can't have cisstraight folks talking for or over us, thus creating a parallel narrative that isn't dominated by the people who should be the ones dominating it - the queer community itself.

[@user-jn1wm3tb8v]

They don't care about gay people They're into hot guys but are threatened by other women.So GAY PEOPLE.

[@sweetly1634]

Ok so I've never watched Andi Mack before, but after this video I decided to watch the hand-holding scene to make up my opinion on whether it was actually 'gay enough' or queer-bating. Um... who the hell thinks that was queer-bating! I then watched a compilation of their scenes to see the lead-up and they so clearly like each other, it's so cute

[@lipat97]

0 0 So basically how the male gaze loves lesbian action but in reverse

[@user-jn1wm3tb8v]

@@lipat97 I call it the Yaoi effect.

[@chimmybacon1964]

@@lipat97 boy i hate both of those kinds of people men think that lesbians are so hot and then say that they hate "f*gs" and then the straight girls who are fetishizing gay men are saying theyre so supportive and love the lgbtq+ community so much but when they meet a lesbian theyre disgusted

[@chunkyunicorn3996]

This makes me want to create a show or book or something where all of the relationships are gay just out of spite tbh

[@CozmosDoesStuff]

Have straight baiting in it, for that extra kick.

[@chunkyunicorn3996]

Bridgett Matthews Yesss lmao

[@taniajs]

Typical bl-manga man. It's all over that shit

[@renarddubois940]

She ra

[@mai-ya-hee]

Magnus chase

[@anonymousdratini]

Adventure Time walked so Steven Universe could run.

[@martynap2930]

And now She Ra joined the race!

[@alexhornewer8396]

Tina #_# She Ra is _sprinting_

[@1tzm3hh11]

FUCK STEVEN UNIVERSE ADVENTURE TIME WAS MY CHILDHOOD!!!

[@catys.m9108]

True

[@imnogood5016]

anonymousdratini love aventure time, disliked steven universe, can’t stand she’ra

[@peachtree4139]

you can say voltron its ok

[@sarai1017]

Lol

[@sarai1017]

Idk why i found this funny

[@fmadiva]

Thank you omg lol

[@broseidon1658]

Oof.

[@pixelpudding3914]

WHEEZE

[@kayeherl9195]

Hannibal did it right. They never had an on-screen kiss, but the showrunner Bryan Fuller (who has stated that Hannibal and Will's relationship is romantic and has no problem with people reading the show and the relationship that way) set it up that it didn't even matter. We as the viewers know that they are obsessed with each other. Will asks Hannibal's psychiatrist if Hannibal is in love with him and she says yes.. Also, their relationship is so complicated and both characters are very messed up people, that I don't even know if a kiss would have done their relationship justice. I can't even be mad that they didn't kiss, because the ending did the whole setup of the relationship justice. Good stuff.

[@nancyvalentine9738]

i strongly disagree since a lot of hannibal/will dialogue and general tropes is taken from hannibal's relationship with clarice from the books and not his actual relationship with will. they basically did hannibal/clarice again but if clarice was called will so it's not actually that great

[@fanaticaH]

@@nancyvalentine9738 He actually did it because for years he looked for the rights to have Clarice or The Silence of The Lambs plot on the show, but MGM got the rights for even the character so he couldn't use it on another way. We still don't know why MGM wouldn't sell the rights, but apparently it was because they sold it first to a Lifetime show that never happened (now they're making an CBS show, I don't know if it's the same show, but even if Hannibal gets renewed it wouldn't get Clarice again). If this wasn't the case Clarice would probably be shown earlier as a character, like a a trainee on FBI, probably being Will's student, who tells Jack Crawford she's a good option for the BAU. There's a rumor that she would be like his prized student with a sort father-daughter relationship with him, maybe similar of what happened with Abigail, who doesn't exist in the books and is also an orphan with deep trauma. And that part of Hannibal and Clarice's relationship would be he specifically targeting her to take what's Will's and ruin it. And it would probably have a continuation to the books with Will having to fight Hannibal and Clarice on one final season and the explanation of either she was hipnotized to love Hannibal or it wasn't completely planned.

[@isam1542]

No wonder Good Omens has been so well received. It's just lovely (granted, I've rewatched the Ineffable couple scenes about a million times, while I've fast-forwarded the rest).

[@luvii_hope9449]

Where can I watch it???

[@Summer-cz9qz]

@@luvii_hope9449 If you don't have it and don't want to pay for the service I was able to watch it on the free trial!

[@ojigbo]

I do hope that you did watch the rest of the show as well, as it is really good.

[@caro-lel]

Delanie Adams I watched it on „burningseries.co“ or „putlocker“...I hope those work for you ^^

[@brendanmccabe8373]

loviihope illegally

[@atsushischazuke8110]

And THIS is why The Percy Jackson and all Riordanverse books are SUPERIOR

[@smileyxd6240]

OMG!!! YES!!!

[@dragonsjs5404]

Wait, I was young when I read these. I don't remember any relationships between characters in them at all. Is that what you mean or did romance just go way over my head?

[@atsushischazuke8110]

Dragon SJS oh, I meant how in Magnus Chase we had a pan character who dates a gender-fluid person and also how in Heroes of Olympus Nico is revealed to be gay and had a crush on Percy

[@atsushischazuke8110]

And a LOT of representation since most of the Hunters of Artemis are aro/ace

[@Obby004]

Luna Liu that’s what I was thinking while watching this. I’ve always loved his books and getting actual representation was a plus, but now I really appreciate it. Good storyline + diverse characters + lgbt+ representation + a kind and funny author. What more could you want. I will always be a part of that fandom.

[@danidkg4071]

i fully agree with this video! sometimes it’s not queerbaiting, but sometimes it’s very clear it is: Jeremy and Michael from the musical Be More Chill are constantly being shipped bc of their bond and how “intimate” some things might get. The creators of the musical don’t have a problem with this ship and understand why fans see it that way (they don’t queerbait). Then take a look at shows like Riverdale where they LITERALLY queerbaited Betty and veronica

[@moonlite]

just an alternative emo kid yesss I agree w everything you say xx

[@aniela4903]

The creators of BMC didn’t invent those characters and wrote the musical without permission from the author who had KILLED HIMSELF

[@moonlite]

Aniela it was an adaption..pretty sure they had permission

[@abigail2572]

Aniela Actually the Ned Vizzini killed himself in 2016 and the musical came out in 2015. The characters are also slightly different from the book and the story is also changed a bit to make it fit more. It is an adaptation from the book. Also no one puts the book characters together rather the musical ones. The writer of the musical one, Joe Iconis, is alright with it. Ned Vizzini probably aloud Joe Iconis to adapt the book seeing his other book was made into a movie.

[@tylerholmes3193]

Ned killed himself in 2013....

[@isaw9969]

With half of the things you said I was like "just say Destiel and Johnlock" lmao. It's so clear that the showmakers use them as queerbait that it makes me physically angry

[@ctfangirl]

how did the writers of Sherlock queer bait when they had John screaming "I'm not gay" from the first. if anything they were way heavy handed in trying to make sure folks got the message that the two men aren't gay even before the whole Irene and Mary stuff turned up. Like they expected folks to gay up the pair and they wanted to kill it before anyone got the idea

[@joshmckenzie1458]

I don't think spn meant to queer bait anyone when Castiel was first introduced, but they did it eventually. Maybe desti might turn Canon this last season, Misha said so on Twitter, I think.

[@katherinemorelle7115]

Luci Novak Destiel is a strange story. No, I don’t think it was intentional in the first few episodes that Cas was in. It was just unexpected chemistry between the two actors. That happens sometimes. Thing is, Cas was never meant to have such a big role in the show- but he was so immediately awesome and popular a character that he was given half the storyline that was originally going to go to Anna, as a way to keep him on the show. But of course, the original Anna storyline was definitely romantic- and they kept some of that, obviously. But the whole “defying my family for you, dying for you, and helping you try to save the world” thing- that was supposed to be Anna, and it was supposed to be romantic. I don’t think they thought it would be an issue to separate some of Anna’s storyline and give it to Castiel- just keep the romance part with the girl, make it shorter, and give the rebellion part to the dude. But that combined with the chemistry of the actors... a ship was born. And from halfway through s4, the writers damn well knew that (as did at least one of the actors- Misha said he played the Anna kiss scene as a jealous boyfriend). And from that point, the writers played with the subtext deliberately. It’s not a new thing- they were already playing with the “maybe Dean is bi” subtext and had been from episode 1. Having Cas there just upped the subtext considerably. So o don’t think they originally intended to queerbait with Destiel, but they sure as hell caught in to it quickly and kept it going (especially in season 6- profound bond, the guy in the trench coat who’s in love with you, Cas isn’t in my ass, and on and on). Honestly, how anyone can deny that all that subtext exists (and was written deliberately) is completely beyond me. And how Jensen has reacted to the ship, and to fans who see that subtext.... leaves a lot to be desired. It comes off as almost queerphobic, tbh. Misha is better, but he plays into it as a bit of a joke, but as he’s made it very clear he’s an ally (and his wife has hinted that he’s at least flexible in his own sexuality), it doesn’t come off as mean spirited. He’s also a big supporter of fan fiction and other fan works, so again, it comes off a lot better from him. Even though I’m sure he knows it’s queer baiting, and he still goes along with it. But queerbaiting or not (and it’s definitely not not queer baiting) I still ship Destiel as my OTP. I just get all my warm fuzzies from fanfic these days. I’m not young and impressionable (I’m 32), and I could get my representation elsewhere these days, but I just love the characters so much at this point that I still love the ship.

[@vishishify]

Then again queerbaiting is the least of that shows problems.

[@bruhmoment6838]

R Smith yea I still like the show and all it was kinda funny at first but now that it’s the last season and nothing has happened I’m actually starting to understand what everyone means by thinking it’s queerbating

[@marshall9003]

What we’ve learned from JK Rowling: Her series is wrong and the only valid origin for HP is Starkid

[@spacecat_scribbles]

I FIND you are a person of culture :)

[@wooyeah1738]

I had no interest in Harry Potter books. Then I watched A Very Potter Musical. I still have no interest in Harry Potter books but I learned a few bops.

[@josephineliebman5839]

DUDE IM SO HAPPY STARKID HAS A BIGGER FANBASE!!! When I got into them they didn’t really, and now they do, and I’m so glad there getting the recognition they deserve, and there are people I can talk about them to.

[@ashildrtheswift3028]

I'm so glad Starkid is getting the recognition they deserve

[@dedusmuln]

wait is jk rowling actually a terf??

[@Rainette1412]

The "I really wanna like Rowling but she makes it so hard" has a whole new different meaning now lol

[@VioletEmerald]

Yeah that part didn't age very well lol

[@HobbylessWolf]

Aged like fine, fine milk

[@Khandrake]

Hits different in 2021

[@cherrybee95]

Wait what happened?

[@Rainette1412]

@@cherrybee95 lots of transphobic takes on her part this past year. And not in an "I'm a cis person and don't know much about these issues" way either... She's an actual anti-trans activist now.

[@OverratedPerson22]

3:15 joke's on them, I've always loved villains more than the good characters

[@matheusporto2228]

I've also always loved villains. When I got older and reallized how Hades, Jafar and Scar are gay AF, as well as Him, Jessie and James subverting gender roles and clothings, I've got to wander if I enjoy villains more because I relate to them more.

[@kevinthefabulous1118]

Matheus Porto Sadly I actually think that's it. I strangely always loved the movie Mulan too, hmmm, *I wonder why?*

[@WendWillow]

Potato Bangtan SAAMEE. I have found my people

[@a_d7366]

the hero never has any personality. So I agree with you.

[@blocktopic]

@@matheusporto2228 wtf does Scar do that indicates that he's gay?

[@melteddali8000]

“I have no idea what happened” I know what happened. You made good content thanks for the vid

[@reluctantlydancing]

Just wanna say about Dumbledore- Harry DID know about Hagrid, Lupin, and Snapes love life. So.

[@augusttyellis]

Good point

[@unicornbarfingrainbows7599]

Tbf with all the weird outfits Dumbledore wore, I’m surprised nobody guessed it until now

[@autumnramble]

Yup, the very first scene he's in those boots and we were all "Ah, ok, he's either Chrestomanci or gay" Harry knows about Hagrid and Lupin's lives because they are his friends not his teachers. What we know about McGonnagall's or Trelawney's spouses, hmm?

[@ymir2957]

reluctantlydancing because Dumbledore keeps his life as a secret, Harry didn’t even know Dumbledore has siblings !

[@shareddocument8182]

@@autumnramble oh wow every time I see Chrestomanci somewhere my heart warms... It's not a popular book series

[@clairesaunders5694]

ugh im torn between shipping stucky so much and also realizing that it is also just a very close healthy platonic friendship

[@vee2736]

Claire Saunders I ship it

[@mujiescomedy279]

Claire Saunders the two aren’t mutually exclusive 🤷‍♂️

[@-megan-1854]

To me, Stucky is the ultimate bromance. You can't make me ship them. To me Steve will always be with Peggy. Steve was a man out of time, it's his biggest struggle, not fitting in the 21st century. So when he goes back in Endgame and sees her office. He realises he could have spent his whole life with her, but he didn't. He goes back in time, to a century where he belongs and to a woman who he loves. That's my interpretation of it. It's one little straight relationships that I actually ship in the MCU. Just to note, I don't really look into like what directors etc. say. I do also agree with the Steve's bisexual point though. Literally in my head I've given the whole characters sexualities.

[@beccag2758]

Megan Norbury the ultimate bromance😂😂 that's perfect. I think Steve and Bucky were brothers to each other, not interested in each other. However, I can see why people ship them (I personally really wanted Natasha and Steve together but alas😂)

[@cosmic_key]

Becca G Captain America and Black Widow should’ve been endgame and I’ll die with that on my gravestone lmaooo. I wanted them to eventually go the route where they have a son named James and he leads the kid Avengers 🥺. I’ll never get to see it live action 😭

[@Aurapelt]

I was surprised you didn't mention the whole Sterek thing, how when those in the Teen Wolf show saw of the ship they used it for advertisement with hints that it could become canon if it won teen choice awards.

[@SarahZ]

I wouldn't watch teen wolf if you paid me

[@Aurapelt]

@@SarahZ A very justified opinion.

[@reaganbartels9993]

@@SarahZ Teen Wolf is what I watch with my friends instead of The Room. It's a grand ol' time.

[@autumnramble]

Two first seasons of Teen Wolf are quite nice horror/comedy/mystery story mix. I wish it'd kept its quality later, or other shows like Sabrina or Riverdale tried to make their stories as interesting or their characters as likeable.

[@joyisntfunny]

I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be canon but it was scrapped bc someone *Tyler Posey* was upset that Sterek was getting more attention than him

[@msadaldin]

KZbin randomly suggesting a vlog for a smart and thoughtful young lady instead of hate speech? KZbin are you sick today?? Great video Sarah! You kind of remind me of Lindsey Ellis and that is a good thing :D Subbed!

[@leonardovieira4204]

This is literaly how i got here

[@bigguy1164]

Maybe if you stopped looking for 'hate speech' on purpose you'd get less suggestions? You know? Kinda how that works.

[@DustyMusician]

big guy I dunno man, some days I’ll be minding my own business and in comes a “FEMINISTS CRINGE COMPILATION SJWS OWNED” in my recommendations. It doesn’t matter how many times I hit “Not Interested”. They always come back.

[@greysautumn398]

@Justin O's Channel actually those ads are great because they're wasting their money on all of us :)

[@eccremocarpusscaber5159]

Dusty maybe there wouldn’t be so many of those videos if there weren’t so many cringey SJWs and feminists.

[@bearbear7866]

I remember loving "him" from power puff girls. I'm non binary, and seeing that just because you have clothes or mannerisms that are stereotypical for one gender but still identifying with another was really impactful to me. Yes I like certain "girly" things and yes genetically I'm technically a female, my pronouns are still they/them.

[@lextatertotsfromhell7673]

You are valid, you might be a biological woman, but you aren’t one in spirit, you’re whatever you feel.

[@AceOfWaffles]

"Jk Rowling, who I really want to like, but it's so hard!" Oh my gosh, same!

[@gentlesandladymen]

Zipp 490 I used to love and admire her works, largely do too the biographies that she CENSORED to make her seem better. Seriously. I looked up a few of the books for the authors and citations, I found a few articles about her censoring the more negative concepts that they were going to put in. The horrible part is is that she trapped the authors with some fine print contracts. It’s disgusting.

[@gabbeaudoin4595]

Hello i come from the future and I bare really bad news

[@hokimaki1234]

Time does wonders, no?

[@rainmer471]

...Oh god the future is so grim

[@ekki1993]

I really hope you don't want to like her anymore after all she's said and done.

[@lilyorsman1427]

With the Brooklyn nine nine, I feel like you missed an important element of shipping which is probably one of the main causes for Boyl and Andy not to be shipped - which is, Boyl isn't attractive. Imagine if instead of his current actor for Boyl, there was instead someone tall, dark and handsome that could be shipped with Andy where Andy is the smaller one. As a queer person, I often see that people only ship gay couples that have some heterosexual elements, like the bottom (more feminine character) and top (more masculine character). I find that people ship these two more heteronormative gay characters and then use them to push for 'representation'. And when someone says that we could ship one of these characters with someone who's not as conventionally attractive or who would turn this into a less of the traditional "seme-uke" dynamic, they go like "no no no, we don't want THAT kind of representation". Like, both Jensen Ackles and Misha are pretty hot, ngl. So if let's say Castiel was played by the same actor as Boyl, there wouldn't be a ship. And I never really shipped them, only saw platonic chemistry and thought there would be an awful power dynamic seeing as Castiel is a fucking angel. Don't get me wrong, I do love shipping attractive characters, both heterosexual and homosexual and I did love this video, but I think you either intentionally or unintentionally missed this entire important discussion when making that point on platonic relationships. Sorry for the ramble, just my pov

[@blueserenity7]

This is a really valid point, and literally no one ever talks about it. I'd also argue that there's definitely a preference for two white guys over anyone else, too, when it comes to these crusades for representation. I think there's a very large number of people who need to step back and ask themselves what they're really pushing for and if what they're saying is the best way to further the cause. Or just admit that they just want to see two hot guys bang. No shame, why make everything political?

[@AlliWalker]

And can we please get away from "the straight guy turned gay" trope? That would be nice.

[@lilyorsman1427]

+blueserenity7 Right?? Though in my experience it isn't always just white guys. I think the only reason hot white people are shipped is that that is what's presented. Like with supernatural, Sherlock etc. I think once the hot mainguys diversify. it means a more diverse gay orgy

[@lilyorsman1427]

+Allison Walker I personally don't mind that trope most of the time, maybe because I found out my sexuality that way. But I agree with what I think you are trying to say, which is that people pussy out on the LGBT part when writing the two hot guys humping each other. It happens often when both *hot* main leads slowly fall for each other and they're like "but he's a *guy*" or "this is so wrong, but feels so right". I feel people (mostly straight girls) like to write about a heterosexual gay couple and I wouldn't really have a problem with this if this BS wasn't so fucking prevalent.

[@AlliWalker]

Basically yes. People are afraid to write actual gay characters, just men who happen to fall in love with another man (and no one else). It bothers me because it turns these relationships into a situation of circumstance instead of people following their biological/sexual drive as LGBTQ people. Not everyone starts off as heterosexual. Questioning or confused, sure, but not exclusively heterosexual. I would like to see that sort of thing done away with. To me it feels lazy and insincere and seems most common in fandom depictions of male couples.

[@goodjobeli]

Riverdale: **Queerbaits in the first episode, erases Jughead's asexuality.** Also Riverdale: LOL here's a gay couple that totally erases everything DID YOU NOTICE THIS COUPLE DID YOU SEE THEM DID YOU SEE THEM WE'RE GOOD NOW

[@Chris-ln7tr]

Some Crazed Nerd I love Riverdale but it’s also really annoying bc the straight couple makes out literally EVERYWHERE they can get near each other but the gay couple gets one small in the middle of a bunch of other things happening. It’s really frustrating

[@nebularsparks9415]

I was SO pissed off when I saw that they took away Jughead's asexuality. That's one of the most underrepresented identities, a lot of people don't even know it exists. They didn't need to erase his asexuality, the show would have been fantastic without him and Betty being a thing.

[@TheMrVengeance]

@@nebularsparks9415 - I didn't see the show, but just wondering, are they shown having sex? Because being asexual doesn't mean you're also aromantic. Meaning, him and Betty can be "a thing" without that somehow negating his asexuality. (Also some people that are asexual still engage in sexual activity with a partner for the sake of their partner. They just don't have a sex drive themselves. Though I doubt a show would go that many layers deep.)

[@azhar1094]

@@TheMrVengeance Yeah they do show it unfort

[@TheMrVengeance]

@@azhar1094 - Hm, ahw well, that's a shame then. It could still be possible like I said, but that'd be a stretch for a TV show.

[@Soupigeon]

What I don’t get with Supernatural is that they’ve had multiple openly gay/bi characters they portray well, yet still refuse to say anything solid about Cas and Dean’s relationship.

[@geminidangel5297]

Soup Pigeon it comes down to the comfort of Jensen. He’s not too comfortable with the Destiel ship, so they’re respecting his boundaries. But I 100% ship it, Destiel is my OTP

[@byMidnyt]

I always felt it had more to do with the fangirls in the early days of the show. They reacted so poorly to Jo and Dean, I think it put the writers off pairing the brothers up at all. Quite frankly, the show has been off the rails for sometime and while this can be a good thing as it has allowed the show to do some really interesting things in later seasons, it has also made for some poor choices. Some of these poor choices are a little too much fan-service. Honestly, I don't blame them for refusing to say anything. Have you seen the toxicity that is some of the other fandoms when the writers go against their ships? It's got to be a very fine line.

[@niamarieliseia6103]

@@geminidangel5297 I respect that because at the end of the day if he's not okay with it then that's fine but they should shut down the idea of Dean and Cas instead of leading on and queerbaiting their audience.

[@geminidangel5297]

Mystic Digi Charlie deserves so much better

[@swanpride]

Honestly, I mostly read it as a variant the moonlighting syndrome. It's not unusual for the writers to string the audience along with a particular pairing. The annoying thing here is just the knowledge that the writers will NEVER go there. That and you shouldn't forget that the various gay and bi characters are never shows to actually being gay or bi. It is just mentioned that they are.

[@Poppetmoth]

I was so glad when Marceline and Princess Bubblegum kissed, it made me so happy to see that they got to fully confirm their relationship.

[@VioletannaVlogs]

Yeah I've noticed people claiming things as queerbaiting even when they're reallly obviously not. Off topic but your shirt is dope af :)

[@seebm266]

Shygirl Vlogs you can get it from ROMWE or SHEIN

[@borilm9151]

3 months later, Bubbline is canon :DD

[@wibblemu9]

I remember when Korra was airing, and I was thinking, "are Korra and Asami a thing?". All the evidence look like it pointed that way, my friends thought I was just reading too deep into it. Then boom, last episode happens and I'm vindicated

[@mophead_xu]

brooooo i really cant ever talk about it enough. like, the thing is, their relationship was built and grown over time, but in the back seat. it wasnt an explicit romance plot because it's more like close friends to lovers trope except they had to deal with a lot of shit while being friends (whether internal conflicts between each other or external from villains and whatnot). it's not like the regular romance trope where it's clearly, explicitly, in the audience's face, but it's there. it may seem sudden to other people but look back at s3: the seeds are there. as someone who doesnt really like romance plot getting in the way of stories that arent actually about romance, honestly, thats prolly the only story that ive ever seen done it. criticise LoK for awful pacing, plot, or characterisation if yous want. hell, even for the (obvious) fact it's not ATLA but damn at least leave the korrasami relationship build out of it because it was GOOD.

[@wibblemu9]

@@mophead_xu couldn't have said it better, I told my friends the same thing too. If you go back and watch season 3, you can see the seed being planted. They establish that they made a great team together. They show that they can rely on each other and both of them open up to each other in ways they didn't with anyone else. They even make fun of Mako lol, showing that it's behind them. I think one of the strongest things is at the beginning of S4, where Asami is the only one Korra writes to. All the groundwork is there, all you have to do is look.

[@eikawithac]

Exactly the same experience here :-) My friends and I started out with a lighthearted, “Mako sucks, Korra and Asami should just date each other lol” stance early in the series, and then were pleasantly surprised by the development of this really sweet and tender friendship between them, and then the finale I just kept thinking, “Wait, are they really doing this? Is this happening? IS THIS HAPPENING”....when they walked off into the bisexual flag sunset together....I still get chills thinking about it.

[@JohnWilliams-cr2sz]

I seem to recall the creators of the show saying that they planned for the two to just be friends, but things just sort of evolved into an actual romance without them planning it, and then just going, "Yeah, this is good. This works. Lets keep this going."

[@MrDomoco]

I think that problem that people have with Korra and Asami, is not that they are a gay couple. I think that's more just like a final nail into the coffin, which in an otherwise well-written show wouldn´t amount to much (yes some people would keep complaining but let's disregard those people rn). I find that people really just dislike Korra as the main protagonist. She just isn´t a good person. And that wouldn´t be a problem, but the show doesn´t acknowledge that, on the contrary, it approves of her self-centred self-righteousness. She just simply has bad and toxic relationships through the show, be it with Makko, Bolin or Tenzin (the best character in there) (also the world-building is kinda crap but that's beside the point). The show really reads like fanfiction. With what I heard when confronted with the criticism, the show creators just doubled down and played a "gay card" (hopefully thats not offensive it´s just funny to say :D), as in "no, our show is not bad, it´s just that you are homophobic." that divided the audience further and polarized it even more, making the issue of Korra Asami relationship be the "issue" that represents "all the issues". I hope it makes sense. Also, took my sweet 6 months to write this, so maybe you dont care now, idk.

[@ren-xe4hq]

Adventure is not queerbaiting never was never will, it’s was always hinted at they had a relationship it’s had always been that way

[@martynap2930]

It wasn't queerbaiting, it was HEAVY censorship. There's a difference, they genuinely wanted to confirm that relationship earlier.

[@ren-xe4hq]

Tina #_# I know that was the point of my comment

[@LegendofLegaia929]

"And honestly, if some of these interactions were between a man and a woman, there would be no hesitation in interpreting them that way." Ike x Soren in a nutshell, imo.

[@catarinarodrigues4829]

Queerbaiting is the alternative tittle for Sherlock

[@romalbhullar]

Was looking for this comment

[@creepyscrawly113]

Arg I feel this too deeply I’m so sad

[@gaynebula6439]

I both appreciate the comment and found the word 'tittle' very funny. Not a jab at your spelling, I just said that word in my head and it gave me a childish chuckle :P

[@Izzy-hb4ij]

and supernatural

[@NowTheDreamsWontDo]

Sherlock's a girls' name so perhaps Queerbaiting Holmes is his real name?

[@WestVirginia130]

In this house we love and support intelligent young women critically analyzing media 👏

[@seiretzym]

Thank you for acknowledging that the Q-word is still hurtful to some people in spite of the widespread reclamation. That matters a lot and many people dismiss it.

[@oziku1816]

Grow a pair

[@seungkwanbot3203]

@@oziku1816 ??? Stop being a dick

[@oziku1816]

@@seungkwanbot3203 stop being a pussy bitch over a word

[@seungkwanbot3203]

@@oziku1816 lmao sounds like someone just learnt what a swear word is

[@oziku1816]

@@seungkwanbot3203 I literally only said bitch. Dont have any comebacks?

[@Cammibird1]

Xcuse you, Massachusetts was the first state to legalize same-sex marriage, we beat Vermont to the punch by about 5 years. ...Jokes aside, this was a really excellent discussion of the topic.

[@thegamingdoggo9519]

I thought it was Washington

[@kalejuice5701]

@@thegamingdoggo9519 nah, that was weed

[@pewpewpew3212]

Love you Massholes

[@willmcdaniel8375]

Too bad boston is still racist af

[@reachfanatic1234]

Will McDaniel lol I think their public schools are among the most segregated Sith maybe New Jersey coming behind so definitely still racist institutionally

[@molliej2718]

probably my favorite moment from Scrubs was the time where Turk admitted that he was kind of uncomfortable with the intimacy he and JD shared and had to confront his hyper-masculinity and homophobia. i personally have never seen a show do something like that since then

[@oof-rr5nf]

mollie I somewhat remember that character ark, yeah. Their friendship was so cute.

[@slayer4691]

Amazing video! Regarding Supernatural, i'm sure Dean and Cas weren't originally intended to even seem gay or have any romantic/sexual tension. But no one really could predict how electric the chemistry between Misha and Jensen would be and that's when the writers split in half to those that saw and liked the idea of the characters showing more than platonic feelings towards each other and the writers who just wanted to continue with the slight gay jokes that they did before Cas arrived in the show anyway. What they forgot is that unlike making gay jokes between Sam and Dean in the first 3 seasons, Dean and Cas aren't brothers and putting romantic tropes can only be considered "oh that's just funny cause they are just friends" for so long. Add to that Deancas scenes getting paralleled down to the quote by hetero couples more and more often, having the camera man really focusing on how long Dean and Cas stare at each other to the point where even Sam has to clear his voice to get their attention and a bunch of other romantic tropes with a very prominent star crossed lovers undertone and queer people like myself or those who don't desperetaly cling to the "why does everything have to be gay these days?" ideology can see clear as day the queerbaiting Supernatural does. Because at some point it stopped being funny and i think it's the most unfair thing how many fans of the show call the shippers delusional. You can't have writers admitting in commentary on the dvd extras that "there's potential of Dean finding love in all sorts of places" in an episode where a dude supposedly hits on him and he gets flustered, but then say "lol Dean is just straight get over it". And also we know that Cas is genderless anyway and have writers say that even if he slept with a woman that doesn't mean he's straight. But then if a fan tries to bring up even the potential of what would mean for Cas and Dean to be together in a convention, other fans will shame them into "not pestering the cast and crew with fanon ships", as if they don't easily ask about other hetero fanon ships. It's clear that we can only enjoy the gay side characters and that only if they don't get killed. *sigh* So, really if Supernatural isn't a clear queerbaiting example then i don't know what is. But i have to admit one thing that forever annoys me is when fans don't know who can and can't queerbait. Because only the showrunners and writers can do that and it's crazy to see people say Misha or Rich etc, simple actors, with no power over the intent of the script and editing and music over scenes that frame scenes as romantic, are queerbaiting us. They aren't, because they simply can't, but it's nice to see them express their pro same sex ships opinions and it would be even nicer if people learned not to throw the term queerbaiting at everyone's face without knowing when it happens and when not. Anyway, this text has no continuity and i could rant about so many things when it comes to Supernatural, even though i love the show, probably because i love it as much as i do. I'm so tired from exams i can barely keep my eyes open, but my point is thank you for your video, your points were great and finally someone gets it, because i see many comments even here confusing what queerbaiting is and isn't and it's frustrating, when all we want is a clear yes or no to main representation, so we don't feel as if we are nothing but a joke, an afterthought and a plaything. p.s.: also thank you for mentioning positive male friendships like that of charles and jake from b99. not that some people won't ship anything that moves, but when a show portrays a friendship right, people can tell it's just platonic, i mean look at how jake and boyle root for each other's relationships for one thing, you can't confuse that with "oh they're secretly in love". so really the main problem isn't that people don't accept healthy portrayals of masculinity, but that it's obvious (at least to my bi little eyes) when a writer's intent isn't as pure as they would like people to think it is, because they like keeping all types of fans around, so they leave things open so as to not piss off anyone. that wouldn't be as bad, if they at least acknowledged that both interpretations can be right, and it's in the eye of the beholder to get what they want from what they watch. that's why for example i never considered merthur from merlin to be queerbaiting, because the writers were open to discuss it as both a romantic love and a platonic love and accept that "hey you see it as a gay love story, great" "you see a strong male friendship, awesome". so how they treat us outside the show also matters. (can you tell i'm bitter that in spn destiel is treated like a dirty secret even among some of its fans, although at least things aren't as bad as they were some years ago for sure, but still you get called delusional if you ship it and hope, you get called delusional when you recognize the queerbaiting and suddenly you're also cynical for not believing it will go canon, no matter how much its fans yell online). srsly this topic always gives me kind of a headache, because no, it's not about seeing two hot guys or two hot girls making out. and it'd be nice if both creators and fans tried to understand things on a deeper level, because this topic is faced with such ridiculous arguments way too often.

[@WedgeOfSpite]

Some actors aren't blameless in queerbaiting, and play it up as much as the writers/showrunners/directors do, and with zero intention of being other than a ha ha, wink wink, joke. Case in point, Fassbender and McAvoy in the X-Men series. The actors admit to playing the gay subtext up, but not for actually seeing the characters being actually involved. So they're just as complicit, if not more, because they do the same thing under different directors.

[@lucamorgi8064]

Hey, so I saw that you were writing about Spn and whilst I can see your point regarding Destiel, I also wanted to point out that we already have lots of LGBTQ+ characters on screen, for example Chuck and Charlie, who are (were) the most popular examples. Also... angels being genderless as well as many side characters who are portrayed as gay and/or being in same-sex relationships. So, regarding Destiel now. I personally can see your point regarding queerbaiting, but I would like for you to consider my point of view on this. Going from the obliviousness Cas deplays when it comes to sex (particularly in 5x03 - when Dean takes him to a brothel) as well as the fact that he never initiated sex only participated when others initiated it, it is easy to picture Castiel as asexual. For Dean we can see him checking out women (some would also say men) and having sex with them from the very beginning. But what we never see is Dean being interested in having a romantic relationship. Sure there are a few people with whom he actually enters one, but for me he comes across as aromantic. Meaning, that whilst the two of them have a great dynamic between them it would be unlikely for them to be together in the normal way. I could see a QPR (Queerplatonic Relationship) happening however. So, yeah, that was just my opinion on Spn Queerbaiting. (and they had lines like "I'm utterly indifferent to sexual orientation"! That alone is more LGBTQ+ representation than we get in most other series...)

[@atinity6749]

So are we allowed to make fun of fanfiction communities or not? Because that was my take on Supernatural, how their in-universe fanbase ships Sam and Dean even tho they're brothers. And how Becky is overly excited and a bit weird. I mean it's fine to ship different characters but it's just weird and hyper sometimes :D And I thought it to be just general commentary about fan communities. I don't know what to think of Cass and dean, or Crowley and Dean. Dean is pretty heteronormative dude, Sam even teases him about being too butch. Cass is clearly somewhat asexual or at least really oblivious to that kind of stuff. Crowley is clearly bi or pan. So there is some sort of Representation there, but it's not explicit, so... Bad? I kinda like how it's open ended, you can decide yourself if Dean and Crowley were a couple or just comrades.

[@natl5692]

How wrong can you be when you want something

[@isabellamazzarese6334]

I'd honestly ship merthur way more if they had let Arthur know about merlin and have the chance to appreciate for a while just how much merlin had risked for him. Instead they just killed him so he never got the chance to have that completely honest relationship. Because, I personally have always loved the Gwen/Arthur romance in many movies, but in Merlin, i got WAY too distracted by the bromance. Long story short, Arthur shouldn't have died and I'm bitter and wanted a healthy gay relationship.

[@sweatyskeleton7390]

Not to sound like a likebaiter, but who's here post-Destiel Incident?

[@bingobazingo9565]

Heeheeheehee

[@sweeety969]

The worst case I've seen of people falsely crying 'queerbaiting' was in the Pretty Little Liars fandom.. There was this one main character who was a lesbian and she had a main romantic interest and everything and dated other girls, however because she wasn't with this other canonically straight character that other people wanted her to be with they called it queerbaiting?! EVEN THOUGH THAT CHARACTER WAS CANONICALLY DEAD! HOW CAN THE SHOW LEAD YOU ON WHEN THESE CHARACTERS AREN'T EVEN INTERACTING APART FROM IN FLASHBACKS? AND HOW CAN YOU CALL IT QUEERBAITING WHEN THE SHOW MAKES IT EXPLICITLY CLEAR THAT WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THEM WAS MANIPULATION AND NOT GENUINE SHOW OF FEELINGS????? The show DIDN'T go out of its way to hint at anything subtly, it made it very clear that while Emily, the gay character, had been infatuated with her straight friend, Alison, those feelings were not reciprocated and Alison just queerbaited Emily in order to confirm her sexual orientation and gain a secret she can use at a later date to blackmail her with in order to completely subjugate her. This wasn't some sort of special treatment either. She had been gathering secrets on all her friends and exploiting the weaknesses of several people at the time. In fact there was another character she gaybashed too and yet nobody accuses her of being motivated by romantic feelings for the other girl. She went out of her way to queerbait this other individual and then revealed that it was really her sending out the love notes and not the target of the other girl's affections, and then used the letter she wrote in return to blackmail her into subjecting herself to her torture. But that was all before the show even started and she was killed off. However everytime there was a flashback that so much as featured Emily and Alison, even if it was in a completely platonic context or consisted of Alison manipulating Emily in some way or even just mocking her sexuality, people called that queerbaiting and alleged they had a special relationship and shit like that even though they only really served to lampshade how horrible Alison was and how easily she manipulated people and how remorseless she was and controlling and dominating. It reached the point where they had written the character back into the show to take advantage of the shippers and do a love triangle they never really were serious with because the bully was always supposed to be the main villain, but they pushed back the reveal because they got picked up for two more seasons. In the end they forced them to be together with a reproductive rape storyline that lead to a pregnancy and the two characters thinking they're both the parents of this baby or whatever and resigning themselves to a lifetime of misery all because the fans on twitter sent actual death threats to cast/crew and harassed and bullied their way onto canonising their preferred ship.

[@TheMrVengeance]

They just wanna see the hot ladies bang. 🤷‍♀️

[@Kuudere-Kun]

Ali wasn't brought back solely to deflect a Queerbaiting accusation, they show was being deliberately ambiguous about if she was really dead from day one.

[@captaintrips1909]

These two got married in the show...what have you been watching?

[@helenenichtfischer6181]

god bless brooklyn 99

[@broseidon1658]

Agreed. NINE-NINE.

[@gretep]

Poseidon NINE-NINE

[@lailadobb9221]

“Did you google: ‘How to talk to your bi friend?’?”

[@owenwd04]

Another strong platonic relationship: Troy & Abed

[@StarrySeal]

Yes! There's never a question of their friendship to me. Some people don't like Community's portrayal of Dean but I honestly think it's nice to have a character that hates labels and wants to just be himself (even if his interest in Jeffery is a little weird). Troy and Abed are so clearly best friends and have a deep emotional bond and are a great example of how to write male friends that can be soft but also are clearly very good friends!

[@l.pineda1576]

@@StarrySeal i love the dean as a character. but as 'representation' it's some of the worst i've seen. it's so obviously meant to be the 'feminine, flamboyant and creepy' cartoon of the gay man, it really infuriates me. of course it can be seen as this person who doesn't need labels to describe themselves but clearly that was not the way the creators intended for you to see them oh and maybe i'm reading too much into it here but some moments between troy and abed (early 21st century romanticism, when troy chooses abed over his date; advanced gay, when troy chooses abed over the a/c repair school; virtual systems analysis, troy calling to check in on abed during his date with britta; geothermal escapism, abed feels like his whole world is ending cause troy's leaving; pillows and blankets, abed's "knowing that doesn't feel like enough anymore" and many more) could be read as platonic moments but if they were between a man and a woman it'd be obviously hinting at a romance

[@sinkintothemoss7530]

Deadass, I was waiting for her to mention Voltron 💀💀

[@Never_Really_Here]

I agree with you 100% . As a queer Potterhead, I was enraged when I heard that Dumbledore wasn’t going to be explicitly gay in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. There is so little LGBTQ+ representation in media, which leads to queer people watching shows with little and bad representation just so we can see a somewhat relatable character. I love your videos. Keep up the great work.

[@davidlost1527]

Ashley Ayala Perez have you watch any CW shows, it has a decent amount of gay and bi people. All the DC superhero shows have a gay character in them. Arrow has a few just in it self, and even the newest show black lighting has a lesbian character. Also they just have them be a gay person with out it being a big thing or need for discussion. That why I hate Kurt in glee since every week was about him having an issue being gay.

[@oof-rr5nf]

david lost But Glee was kind of the catalyst that actually delivered on ships, right? They stumbled a lot, and I could not even tolerate the show after three seasons, but they should atleast get credit for both gay and lesbian representation . . . even if it was dodgy at times. I _am_ angry at Glee, however, for how they treated bisexuality as a non-identity and a joke and never explicitly showed Brittany as bi. That is fucked up. (I could've started questioning my sexuality a whole lot earlier if I ever even saw bisexuality as a thing, instead of just the straight/gay dichotomy plastered everywhere)

[@Never_Really_Here]

Amabelle Smith I understand that Dumbledore didn’t have a love interest in the books, the only teachers who had an explicit love interest was Hagrid, there were mentions of Filch having romantic interest in Umbridge, and obviously Snape’s “love” for Lily. However, Rowling stated that Dumbledore was in love with Grindelwald, and that his infatuation with Grindelwald blinded him from Grindelwald’s flaws until the truth was revealed. I’m not saying there was to be a whole separate plot in the movie, Dumbledore already knows Grindelwald is evil and will not try to pursue him or help him escape. But Grindelwald’s betrayal to Dumbledore was more hurtful to Dumbledore because it was in love with him, and that is something that can be mentioned in the movie the same way there were mentions of Newt and Leta’s relationship in Fantastic Beasts. *TL;DR* J.K. Rowling said that Dumbledore was in love with Grindelwald, and that made Grindelwald’s betrayal even more hurtful for Dumbledore. I’m not saying there has to be a separate plot for Dumbledore where he tries to reconcile his love for Grindelwald, I’m just stating that the movie should address the fact that Dumbledore was in love, and had his heart broken by Grindelwald. I’m positive they are going to dive into plenty of straight relationships that have no impact on the story, why not actually show a queer character’s history that actually has baring on the story?

[@oof-rr5nf]

Ashley Ayala Perez PREACH!

[@morg2040]

Ashley Ayala Perez SO TRUE, It totally just feels like they made him gay just to be ‘woke’ and pander to a more open lbgt+ crowd.

[@helena2257]

Just in case you will ever read this, thank you for going the extra steps to include accurate subtitles :)

[@tessaminick8745]

She mentioned the hinting of Destiel and how she wants to like J.K. Rowling. Clearly this video could have aged better.

[@katharineeavan9705]

Honestly, given how it went down the Destiel thing aged pretty perfectly. They gave us a one sided love confession followed immediately by burying the gay, with just enough wiggle room that there are STILL people claiming the love confession was platonic, then for the two remaining episodes they just ignored that it even happened.

[@serenafeltrin6513]

@@katharineeavan9705 but not in spanish

[@oxfordcommaisthegreatest]

One of the things that's always irked me about LGBT representation is how gay couples are shown within a show vs a straight couple. With straight couples, you have all this development, this pining, hinting at, and most of the time, the two people in the straight relationship are main characters. Straight relationships have numerous tropes associated with them (which isn't necessarily a negative thing, just an observation) and with the straight relationship, you will have a lot of scenes dedicated to their blooming love and other characters teasing them about said love. With *most* LGBT relationships? They are almost always side characters that are already in an established relationship. This is especially true for gay men and LGBT characters in animated series. If the LGBT characters do have the same sort of development that straight couples have, it's usually two women. Honestly, gay men aren't as represented as lesbians in general. You can correct me if I'm wrong, it's just what I've personally noticed. edit: a year later remembering this comment exists and reading the replies, a lot of people pointed out that a good portion of lesbian "representation" is solely for the male gaze, and yeah, I agree. That's something I neglected to mention in my comment. Also, I personally watch a lot of cartoons, so my view on this issue was influenced by that, since ya know, we can't have the children being corrupted by the spooky gays™ People who consume different media will have a differing take than I do on this. I'm glad my rambling got 200 likes tho lmao

[@autumnramble]

That's why I like so much MTMTE comics by James Roberts. You have so many LGBT characters you can have an old marriage having problems with addictions and former spouses, you can have bickering friends who slowly fall for each other, we can have old maid learning to appreciate and love their very young companion, we can have a predator, we can have a healthy ladies with no relationship problems adventuring happily through galaxy, a pair that learns about dangers of internet dating, and everybody ends their story in different place they started it, but usually more happy. I wish I would see more of that in other media, not a fixed points but living relationships.

[@smileyxd6240]

That's why I love "Schitt's Creek" so much! I don't know if you know this show, but one of the main plots from season 3 to season 6 is the relationship between the main character David (who is pansexual btw, which I've never seen on tv before) and his buissness partner Patrick, and how they both fall in love with each other. They are being treated like any other couple, you can gradually see their relationship evolve, but also not every storyline of them is about their relationship, they are both very "round" characters, who have much more to offer than just being depicted as a queer couple.

[@kittycatrina1861]

Lesbians might be shown more but they are almost always made for the enjoyment of het men ,, no the gay women theyre representing ;/

[@tayclark42]

Facts it is really sad tbh because it makes people think all gay people want is sex like WHAT NO I want a relationship just like you do

[@masaufuku1735]

There are also a shitload of instances of straight characters becoming couples despite either having no chemistry and/or there not being any actual development of a relationship, particularly if they are main characters, because it's basically expected, and they can get away with a few tiny hints at attraction. But yeah, it's far more universal with gay couples, especially gay men.

[@gatonegro8883]

So, I've been watching some of your videos lately and I can't thank you enough for being SO clear and straight to the point. Your arguments are clear and well-organized. I came here without knowing what the heck even is Queerbating, and now the concept is clear as water to me, and, as much as it is very debatable, I've got my opinion formed on it thanks to you. Again, you're very coherent and clear, which I appreciate a lot, and you seem like a very down to Earth person. Great video!

[@corvettez06usa]

If I was homosexual I think I'd be pretty annoyed in general these days because it feels like that sexual orientation is being exploited on all fronts to draw in dollars. Whether the intentions are innocent and to push for a positive image or for nefarious reasons and pushing a token gay guy under the guise of being homosexual friendly: either way you cut it looks like "put something gay in it so we get more audience".

[@evam6961]

Still better than never seeing ppl like me on screen or just as a tragic story with us dying, i take what i can get tbh

[@kalejuice5701]

@@evam6961 and that's exactly the reaction they want, I think. If I ever get around to my personal comic, I'll write in everyone and treat them as if they were bi. Just to keep options open and have real representation somewhere tbh

[@pewpewpew3212]

The token gay guy and the non existent lesbian are all we have

[@pewpewpew3212]

I forgot about the “bicurious” characters that are actually full on bisexual. But you know, bisexuals don’t exist either 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@jamescam04]

There is a fair amount of representation of gay characters on UK TV. “Coronation Street” has had an out gay character for years, and there is at least one very explicit lesbian relationship in that series. Corrie does a good job of gay characters, without being too heavy-handed about it. The motive in having them seems to be nothing more sinister than a desire to give a reasonably realistic picture of modern working-class Britain.

[@nancyhi8357]

To be honest, based on books and films alone, Harry seams much more likely to be bisexual than Dumbledoor seams to be gay.

[@rainmer471]

I mean... a dumbleDOOR does swing both ways.... (I'm so sorry lol. The pun doesn't even fit the comment that well but I couldn't help it)

[@acidmineslady5832]

Nah it was more like Dumbledore was too busy to have a sexuality if you know what I mean. He was never seen with anyone as far as I know

[@sockpuppetmogwai856]

@@acidmineslady5832 Its suppose to be based on the last minute reveal that he was super close with Grindlewald and that he was in love with him. Which might make him Biromantic but yeah its super vague.

[@Lotus-sp6cu]

What I gathered: 1) The couple should actually be a couple, not just half-hearted hints that *maybe* somethings going on. 2) Don't just do it so that you can say, "Hey look, a gAy CoUpLe!" for the clout.

[@emberhermin52]

The funny thing is that 1) happens all the freaking time with straight couples. It's called ship teasing. People just don't get as mad about it... For some reason... 🤔

[@laisferreiracunha487]

The worst part in this is that people don't understand we only "read too much" into a show cause we have to. As you said sometimes the writers just can't afford to have gay characters represented correctly for certain reasons and we (the lgbt community) had to learn how to look for them. So it's not my fault that I believe Sherlock and John were in love when every single character around them suggest they are a couple.

[@lisbethrivera8851]

that one stan ikr, like I legitimately thought “are they in a relationship or going to get together?” Because most of their romantic partners don’t pan out and I know that Sherlock is apparently in love with Irene but I feel like it might be more soulmates kind of thing, like kindred spirits? And it feels like Sherlock and John become coparents to Rose after Mary dies so...? What now? Sorry if that might be inaccurate, its been a while since I rewatched everything.

[@captainawesome369]

Also, if John was a woman, pretty sure all those people using the "you're reading too much into it" kind of argument, would ask themselves "why aren't they together yet ?"

[@MANJYOMETHUNDER111]

Captain Awesome No, because they'd actually have scenes that develop a romantic relationship. Show vs tell.

[@FaeQueenCory]

+Captain Awesome We literally have this already. It’s called “Elementary”. And people do wonder why this hetero-gender-swapped Holmes and Watson aren’t together. It’s almost as if the source material was gay as hell or something........ but then I guess it’s normal for a “straight” man to go and try to kill himself when his “friend” gets engaged to a woman.... 🙄

[@MANJYOMETHUNDER111]

FaeQueenCory Wow. Correlation doesn't equal causation. Pretty basic concept.

[@queenofsoco]

This is a good video - clear and explains queerbaiting better than I ever could. This whole video is a perfect definition of BBC Sherlock. My straight brother watched it with me and when John says "I'm not gay" my brother went "wait I thought he was gay?"

[@tyleraskins840]

I’m gonna say one thing: Pitch Perfect. I’m still so mad about it, especially since the stars fought so hard for the representation and were lead on, like us. And, if you’ve seen it, THAT ONE AD.

[@maya_htrabkcah]

I was searching for a pitch perfect comment 😂 I think it was great how much the cast fought for bechloe but you know Universal was a bitch 🙄🤧🤮😭🥺

[@acidmineslady5832]

At least Beca didn't kiss the dude in the end lol

[@j.alice.gale.]

*talks about supernatural* Me: *laughing from the future* Oh just you wait hun

[@bingobazingo9565]

It ageeedddddd lmao

[@IzzRox6789]

I’m wondering what your opinion is on BBC sherlock, which you mentioned briefly. I would say it is the most explicit example of queerbaiting thus far, especially with the last season leaving us with john’s wife, mary, leaving the boys this long, heartfelt message saying “now that I’m gone, i know what you two could become”. (All this overlaid over a montage of sherlock & john raising john’s daughter together in their flat- need i say more?) As a lesbian viewer, i was pretty pathetically devastated when that was all they gave us after seemingly building up to an explicit relationship for 10 years. Thanks for talking about this, anyway. We need more youtubers like you.

[@oof-rr5nf]

Izzy Taylor And now there is all this buzz about Martin Freeman saying he is sick of fans wanting Johnlock???? Like????? This is the same dude who said that Sherlock is the 'gayest show on television' after Season 1 aired. I do not condone how extreme some fans get, nor do I support harassment of creators and cast. Ew, not at all. But don't just shame all shippers when the subtext is brighter than the sun, okay. Sorry if I sound too bitter, lol. I am just so heartbroken.

[@lelahbyron5120]

It's so disappointing to see BBC completely backtrack and even insult the fans in the show (the scene where the "fanclub" theorizes about Sherlock and Moriarty kissing) especially when Mark Gatiss himself is gay ):

[@MANJYOMETHUNDER111]

Subtext isn't text, it's subjective. You see them as gay because you want to see them as gay.

[@MANJYOMETHUNDER111]

Raisabear Nah, you just read too far into it.

[@blueserenity7]

(Responding to a number of previous comments in one shot here because I can't keep my big mouth shut, sorry for the wall of text!) But can it actually be queerbaiting if both writers have been quoted since as far back as 2010 that it wasn't going to happen in their show? Moffat and Gatiss are fine with different interpretations of their characters and always have been, because they understand that they're also just two other Sherlock Holmes fans with a film crew and a lot of money. But most of the interviews on the topic can be boiled down to (paraphrasing here) "Sure, that's all good and well. We write it for ourselves, not for any particular group of fans, so it's not going to be in our show. But if that's how you think it should be, we won't stop you." Gatiss specifically has a number of insightful interviews on the topic. He thought that Mrs. Hudson's little quips about the two of them were funny, not just Moffat. He also believes that gay representation is best done incidentally, (like, not really drawing attention to itself) which they really only could have done if it was just a passing thing from day one, not introduced as some Big Moment in a series finale or what-have-you like everyone kept asking for or expecting. Any example of evidence in this show that anyone has or is about to cite will be much more subtextual/open to interpretation than any from the shows mentioned in this video, by the way. A lot of people reading this probably are gonna want to fight me for saying any of this (and start providing me The List of all the SUBTEXT to whom I say, please, dear God, save your breath, I've been in the fandom since 2014 and there is literally no argument I haven't seen or heard before) but in the end, people watch shows differently. A lot of fans saw something there. A lot of fans saw close friendship. Neither group is more correct than the other. I'm not here to tell anyone what they're allowed to interpret or ship, but I and anyone else who has ever disagreed with Johnlockers on this topic expect to be afforded the same courtesy. I'm mostly just here to stick up for the show and the writers, because I'm sick of people throwing it and them under the bus, and slinging That Word at them, specifically because of Mark Gatiss. It really doesn't make much sense. If it was so obviously queerbaiting, why would he actively feed into it when he himself is gay? The reality of the matter that many, MANY fans online (here and on various other social media sites) missed completely is that the REAL guilt for baiting rested on a number of Big Name Fans who constantly promoted the idea that Johnlock WAS going to be canon, that it HAD it be. That everyone involved in interviews were Lying Liars Who Lie. That there was NO other interpretation of the show that made sense, (insert more extremes here). The ones who made all of the master lists, videos, etc. that everyone always cites. They had a long history of promising newer or more casual fans that it was definitely going to happen, and recruiting people to the theory in a borderline cultish way, but then completely ignoring any evidence to the contrary and twisting words from the creators to suit their views. And what happened to all of them once Series 4 ended and there was no Big Moment? POOF. And who's getting blamed now in their place? For the longest time in some circles, anyone who didn't see the two as romantically involved was talked down to, or treated as a lesser fan that didn't understand how to interpret media. Even Johnlockers who shipped them but didn't think it would be canon were attacked. Again, it all boils down to subjectivity. To me, going through with it would have looked like plain old fanservice, especially late into the game as they are now, not to mention two white men wouldn't have been all that progressive in 2017. To anyone who took up that mantle on the blue hellsite, I ask you: why was it only okay for Sherlock and John to be the representation you wanted? Why didn't anyone allow for an interpretation of Sherlock as bi, or anything other than gay, really? Why was the whole push for Johnlock and not just for either character to just be LGBT, independent from any particular pairing? To me, it reeked of misplaced justice and a lack of understanding of what representation really means then, and it still does now. For the record, not that it really matters, but I don't think Sherlock is straight or gay. There isn't any denying that he felt (probably still feels, actually) something for Irene Adler, and there are a number of fans who see clear signs that he has feelings for Molly. I'd even argue that he actively chose to fake a relationship (and apparently get mildly intimate with) a woman who worked for Magnussen, not, say, one of Magnussen's security men who was in his office. But I think he also clearly cares deeply for John (more than he should considering how abusive John is tbh) and has some kind of taboo attraction to Moriarty. I don't think it's meant to be that clear cut. Many times, it's completely irrelevant. In the end, I find much more value in the character development and maturation of Sherlock himself through the show than a romantic relationship. To me, that's what the show is about and where the bulk of the writers' intentions lie. Speaking of lie...(lies down and goes back into hibernation until Series 5)

[@ZipplyZane]

I'd say there is a third category that is kinda a mix between the two: you didn't start off making the characters queer, but people read into it and you exploited that, but didn't want to firmly establish it because it was not your original intention. I'd say that is what Xena did, though I do believe they did finally establish it at the end, turning it into a long "will they or won't they" instead.

[@ZipplyZane]

And yes, they were in the "pave the way" category. But I don't think they were just friends, at least, later on.

[@tassiasmith]

I'd say Xena was more along the lines of Legend of Korra and Adventure Time in that sense; the showrunners and actors were all rooting for the relationship and all thought it was more than platonic, but they were catching a lot of pushback from the studio. They showed what they could, and pushed to show as much as possible; the television landscape was very different back then, and you can watch tons of interviews with the actors and showrunners where they come out and say, "Yes, absolutely it is there, and we love and support our queer fans." I mean, to the point where they hired a person who was known for writing Xena/Gabrielle fanfiction to write one of the later episodes (which was one of the gayest episodes they had), and tons of nods and winks and outright canon that had straight people catching on too; it wasn't sly, it was blatant. And in the context of what else was being aired at the time, it was one of the very few shows that had subtext that wasn't just for a sweeps week attention grab and then was quickly forgotten and shoved under a rug. It was really quite a bit ahead of its time, and I think if it were produced today there would be no question, it would be outright stated and shown on screen. I mean, it really pushed the boundaries at the time. But if a live action show aimed at an adult audience were to do what Xena did back then today, well, it'd be queer baiting. Because it's not the late nines or early aughts anymore, and networks are not only more permissive, but have had to compete with internet content which is way less regulated (though, as in the case of Riverdale, can still pull bullshit). We've moved on from there, it's not progressive anymore; subtext isn't progress anymore. Not everything needs to be maintext, but we're not at a point where subtext is pushing boundaries. Xena pushed a lot of boundaries, and it went out of it's way to do so; and never once did the creative people behind the show say that the fans who read into that subtext were idiots. Rather they reached out and fully embraced those fans, at a time when that could have ended their show.

[@Charolette21]

I feel like they never planned the pairing of Korra and Asami or Marcy and Bonnie when they started the show; they had a different thing planned and the fan responses convinced them to do what eventually happened while not having any ill intent.

[@spookyho5994]

Queer baiting creators be like: *”Mix it all together and you know that it’s the best of both worlds”* 😉 *hAhAHA*

[@sarahharman9879]

Good news from the future: everybody go watch supernatural edit: bad news from the future: everybody, DONT go watch supernatural Edit: Good news from the future! Everybody, go watch supernatural in Spanish!

[@serenafeltrin6513]

everybody, watch supernatural in SPANISH

[@sarahharman9879]

@@serenafeltrin6513 OMG

[@fritzy8318]

They did it in the Italian dub too from what I’ve heard apparently.

[@sarahharman9879]

@Eliana B. you sound a little bit salty that a certain angel canonically confessed his gay romantic love to a certain hunter ;)

[@biancohills1628]

LOVED this video. (LOVED your shirt!) I love how articulate your videos are and how you come prepared with all the facts, and just what you talk about in general. Keep making amazing videos! Can't wait to hear your announcement!

[@vixa__J]

With the whole “looking to into a relationship” thing there is also the problem of straight girls fetishizing gay relationships to get off on. I’m not saying you have to be LGBT+ to ship a gay relationship, it’s just they fetishize it, it becomes a problem. Also the problem of people taking ships to far and pushing it onto the actors/musicians themselves.

[@TheMrVengeance]

Yeah, because straight guys totally don't fetishize lesbian relationships in the same way... oh, wait.

[@slayeulgi]

@@TheMrVengeance they weren't saying straight men dont

[@TheMrVengeance]

@@slayeulgi - They specifically point out that it's a problem straight *girls* fetishize gay relationships. That implies it's not a problem when straight guys or lgbt people do the same. Else you'd say "it's a problem when gay relationships get fetishized." And not single out a specific group.

[@slayeulgi]

@@TheMrVengeance they just didn't say anything about the guys but you don't know if they also implied males.

[@TheMrVengeance]

@@slayeulgi - I'm sorry, this is just common critical reading skills. When you say _"It's a problem group A does X."_ you're also saying either group B doesn't do X, or that outs not a problem when they do. Else you would say _"It's a problem when people do X"_ in general. By not speaking in general, and singling out a specific group, you imply it doesn't apply to other groups. Because else why are you singling out the group to begin with?

[@JillLeflour]

Genuine question: is queerbaiting limited to same-sex relationships? Surely with the general public becoming more aware of transgender people's identities showrunners would try to bait LGBT fans into thinking some characters might be trans or enby too. I don't have any example of this though, probably because there is close to 0 trans representation in media anyway. 🤷‍♂️

[@hummus_exual]

Jill Leflour I think that the general idea of queerbaiting is "Implying that someone is LGBTQ+/trans/nb... without actually depicting it", so it's not limited to same-sex relationships. However it might be harder to do such a thing with transgenders since you can't really imply that someone is trans but not actually represent it as such.

[@fanaticaH]

@@hummus_exual No, I get it. If they get aware of trans headcanons and they do nods for woke cookie point but don't do anything. Or from the beginning have this character who crossdresses or something even more confusing but then it isn't a trans issue. For something western I always remember trans marco from star vs. And I still don't understand if anime media with "traps" is meant to represent trans people or not, some character even say they want to be a girl or don't want to be a boy but then the creators basically say "they aren't trans, ew" after being pressed.

[@Materminds187]

I shipped FitzSimmons on AoS so there’s that.

[@queer-ios3155]

There was one case I saw that seemed to be this, bit it was more transcoding than transbaiting, if that makes sense

[@pinkradiohandlerr]

I’m so happy there’s so many new cartoons with canon lgbt characters, like Kipo and the age of wonderbeasts (main character’s friend they pulled a straight-bait with that lmao), Twelve Forever (with the main character being wlw), She Ra (need I say more?), and obviously Steven Universe (big gey), and evening things like The Loud House (that one sister idk I’ve never actually watched it but I know she has a girlfriend or something). It just makes me happy to know that there’s kids growing up with these positive representations.

[@corhydrae3238]

I love She Ra, but I honestly wouldn't mention it as proper representation. While they do explicitly show characters to be unmistakenly gay, it is only a bunch of characters that are irrelevant to the plot and badly written. Especially with Spinnerella and Nettossa, it feels like "These characters canonically exist, but we don't plan to do anything with them in the plot anyway, so we might as well slap 'gay' on them to earn some internet points". It would have been fine by me at that point, because not every gay character that appears somewhere has to be a properly fleshed out main character, but then they went on to introduce another gay couple to just kinda exist for an episode, which just made it feel excessive.

[@MikeRosoftJH]

Add to it My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. 1) Scootaloo's aunts, and 2) Lyra and Bon Bon.

[@lieaparisss08]

I agree so much with you. Kipo was so Upfront about it. It had no teasing, and (for me) it felt fine and not forced. Twelve forever is not forced at all, because Reggies character wasn't JUST that. As much as I love Steven universe universe, I do not know how to feel. I have heard so many different opinions from so many different people, but overall it's ok. She-ra is one of my favorite shows, and even if it did feel a little forced I still love it. (You named my favorite shows wow)

[@jessicacreed7773]

I was hoping someone would mention Kipo in the comments, it's one of the best examples I've seen! Benson just straight up says "I'm gay" in a cartoon, is one of the main characters, and develops a pure-ass relationship over two seasons. Plus he's super likeable and he's black. A+++.

[@diyagore1784]

Also the Dragon Prince, which I have a hunch was like 99% of the reason She ra pulled off as much as it did.

[@ddahlia3607]

its funny i saw this video because i just went on twitter to see Lando being announced by writers to be pansexual even though i know its never going to be addressed in the actual movie :/

[@oof-rr5nf]

Dara Page It sucks, man. I was just complaining about this in a different comment section (read: too much free time), but it really irritates me how Deadpool and Wonder Woman are canonically pansexual and bisexual, respectively, but am quite certain it will never find mention or depiction in their films. Deadpool hasn't even dated anyone but women in the comics and all his flirting with the guys can be passed off as 'gay jokes' (ew). :'(

[@PedroToledo.]

In Deadpool case there is this video that explains his sexuality.

[@goodjobeli]

Arunima Tiwari Deadpool hasn't straight up went and said "I'm pansexual" but it has been heavily hinted that he's pan.

[@BeccaLynnDearden]

Actually in Solo, Lando came off as quite flirtatious towards Han so his pan sexuality slightly shone in those moments.

[@ignaciogutierrez9376]

well, Ryan Reynolds has recently been interviewed about this and he said he's looking forward to explore Deadpool's sexuality more in future movies. AND I think he means it, since in Deadpool 2 they included a lesbian couple who weren't oversexualized (some straight men's fetishes). I was so happy when i saw that in the movie theater, and even more happy when the audience (of all ages) didn't mutter any "ew"s or over-done surprised "ooooohhhhh" s. And even in Deadpool 2 i can remember some flirting between him and Cable. well, only done by him not by Cable lol. but yeah I hate gay jokes that's what i was fearing with the lesbian couple as well..

[@RivkahSong]

I'm really shocked that you didn't mention Teen Wolf. They kept on hinting at Stiles being bisexual but never showed it and kept putting in Sterek moments where they are staring intently at each other or touching, etc as well as having Dylan O'Brien and Tyler Hoechlin cuddle on a literal ship to incourage people to vote for Sterek in a contest of best TV ships only to then turn around and have people like Jeff Davis and Tyler Posey make fun of fans for liking and wanting Sterek. I really loved that show but that ruined it for me.

[@marisa249]

News from the future: You're never gonna believe what Supernatural did.

[@katharineeavan9705]

Oh no, we can all believe what Supernatural did. Most of us are only shocked they didn't out and out have Dean shut Cas down before he went to Gay Angel Hell.

[@agostinacoronel2901]

Checkmate boomer we latin americans made it gay

[@chaosinsurgency1213]

don't mind me just leaving a comment in case something interesting happens

[@brocanujustbenicepls2944]

Shut up , im still mad

[@mffmoniz2948]

@Ellie B. Yes, Misha forced the writers, directors and other actors, editors and whatnot to add all those scenes and moments fans use in Tumblr and KZbin videos. He totally did it all himself. Come on... They may have wanted to keep Dean a straight guy but they sure liked to wink-wink-nudge-nudge a certain part of their audience.

[@nolanhembree5565]

Oh my gosh watching this made me realize that I accidentally wrote one of the same gender relationships in my book as queerbaiting. Thank you for helping me point this out.

[@beth7935]

I don't think it'd be queerbaiting per se if it was accidental?? Like, a well-intentioned attempt at representation that you later decided wasn't the best way to go about it? I dunno, but it's always good to think about stuff.

[@Nehelenia3000]

To add to this (very good) video, I’d mention showrunners who use queerbaiting in order to attract attention, then desperately backtracking when they realize that people, you know, took them at their word. I think Sherlock is the best example. But there are also examples of shows that queerbaited, then realized that this is what fans actually want and expect now, so they followed through, like Person of Interest with Root and Shaw.

[@captainawesome369]

The problem with Sherlock isn't so much the queerbating (well, no, it's still a big problem) but what actually bothers me, during the show backtracking, is how it completely mocks the people who, rightfully, saw the beginning of a gay relationship in it. It's one thing to not (actually) show a gay romance, and a whole other thing to basically be like "You're just a bunch of idiot who are seeing something that's not even there !"

[@oof-rr5nf]

Captain Awesome Their attitude towards fans is poison. Fortunately, Sherlock's fandom is a whole lot cooler than the actual show ended up being, to me at least.

[@captainawesome369]

"Their attitude towards fans is poison" To be fair : Steven Moffat. I don't know who this guy doesn't despise. From his point of view, you're an idiot if you think Jonhlock is a thing, and you're also an idiot for wanting answers from a show about *solving mysteries*

[@MANJYOMETHUNDER111]

"is how it completely mocks the people who, rightfully, saw the beginning of a gay relationship in it." Something isn't right because you want it to be right. There was never any evidence that Sherlock and John were gay, just that Sherlock had no social capabilities whatsoever and relied on Watson as his emotional crutch. I actually find it pretty offensive that people think this about them, not because of homophobia, but because romance in fiction tends to devalue friendship between characters. Part of the reason a lot of people liked Pacific Rim, for example, is because they deliberately DIDN'T pair the two leads romantically. Basically people are saying that the only reason two men could care deeply about each other is because they're secretly gay.

[@MANJYOMETHUNDER111]

ULGROTHA You're wrong. Plain and simple.

[@JP-kz6ll]

Thank you for this video. It was a neutral, well spoken, and informative take on a fairly muddy topic. I hope I see more videos like this on other equally hard to explain topics by you or others in the future.

[@vinniesamdude7517]

You: “oh my gaga” 2012 me emerging from my cocoon: “HE NEVER SAID THAT GOD DAMNIT THAT WAS FANFIC-“

[@anniecenter]

I see you’re a person of culture 👌🏻. I can’t blame her though, I’ve read so many Faberry and other Glee fics that I also sometimes forget what’s canon and what’s not 😂

[@sleepycowboy18]

About ship... anyone is free to ship, but don't harass, that's it. Queerbaiting is usually bad writing, avoid spending money on bad writing :(

[@transcuber]

im super surprised you didn’t mention xena. in my opinion, it was more of a censored gay relationship than queerbaiting, but other people have differing opinions

[@gamongames]

I believe everyone that watched that show knew they were a couple, they were as overt about it as they could at the time, but I also remember some statement from the authors that they couldn't write it to be an open lesbian marriage

[@futurestoryteller]

Wait - how old is she? She doesn't know what Xena is, lol

[@gamongames]

sounded like a 20yo trying to appear old.

[@futurestoryteller]

@@gamongames Me? No.

[@positiveecho326]

Gabriela Montemor They also said the started inserting the lesbianism in Xena as a nod to their heavily lesbian crew.

[@schattentaenzerin]

I'll never forget Tara and Willow on Buffy and how much hope and joy it gave me, having them on the show. It meant so much to me.

[@shockingheaven]

Watching this after She-Ra ended and actually delivered 💖🏳️‍🌈

[@costcosfinest4763]

lol there was never a question about whether or not she-ra would deliver

[@shockingheaven]

@@costcosfinest4763 Oof. Many fans on the internet would say otherwise. Back when season three aired, a lot of fans stated that Catra was beyond redemption and that it would never happen, and that kind of statement continued when season four premiered. Also, there was the Dreamworks factor, as a lot of people still felt betrayed by Voltron and kept wondering if they would do a similar atrocity with She-Ra.

[@costcosfinest4763]

@@shockingheaven i was never very involved in the online presence of she-ra so i can't tell you for sure, but i always saw catra's redemption as an inevitable. also the creator is wlw and much of the fanbase is too so i assumed that even if dreamworks pushed back, the endgame would still be rather obvious.

[@shockingheaven]

@@costcosfinest4763 IKR! It was so frustrating and I wanted to believe. That’s why it was so cathartic to see it becoming a reality. 💖

[@costcosfinest4763]

@@shockingheaven yep!

[@fanaticaH]

I think no one really talks about qbaiting on japanese media. People think it doesn't happen there but it probably happens more to bait fujoshi.

[@KaiseaWings]

What I liked about Korra and Asami is that it showed the beginning of a relationship that was warm and loving, a kiss was unnecessary and honestly I felt like they weren't ready for it? The kiss in the comic is while they're in the spirit world, right at the end of their vacation. No one was there to see, it was intimate and private. They had the space to figure their relationship out. Supernatural can die in a fire. Mostly for their treatment of fans outside of the show but also for the nastiness of the show about the whole Dean x Castiel ship.

[@pinkcupcake90]

Kaisea definitely agree with the Korra and Asami thing!

[@horseymad22]

7 minutes in, and still all I’m thinking is “Supernatural”

[@katherinemorelle7115]

Yep, I hear queerbaiting, and I automatically think Supernatural it Destiel. It really is the prime example of it (that and JohnLock, though I never watched much of that show. Unpopular opinion- I thought it was far too pretentious, and I actually preferred Elementary)

[@StarrySeal]

@@katherinemorelle7115 If you can stand the amount of time, you gotta watch Hhbomberguy's Sherlock analysis, I watched all of Sherlock and after it was done I realized how terrible it was and that analysis highlights it so well. I'm really, really holding out hope on Supernatural at this point, it seems to be a writers v network issue. Supernatural had a very important lesbian couple that got their own spinoff show and it was cancelled by the CW the second the relationship between these women was confirmed. The CW cut down on their appearances and they never appeared together again after the writers talked about them being a couple on stream. Later, they were confirmed on the show itself but only with words and only one of the characters got to come back. Legit homophobia right there.

[@billyhargrovedeservedsomuc183]

This dude is commenting on all the Destiel comments, just don’t engage.

[@brocanujustbenicepls2944]

@Ellie B. so Castiel is gay because Misha is gay irl? How irritating

[@Littlepup93]

Finally! Someone says that Legend of Korra isn't queerbaiting! Bless!

[@shriekynoodles]

The hilarious thing is- The dude who plays Kurt (Chris Colfer) Is literally the opposite of the stereotype (if you ignore his high voice, something that he can't change).

[@radioactivepi734]

Can we all just take a moment to appreciate she ra, which (in my opinion) has amazing representation of same sex couples and even a non binary character? I think it’s the first time I’ve seen a non binary person on tv, which feels sad to admit

[@mariedit9935]

There's a sitcom with a main teenager couple between a lesbian and a non binary person. It's a funny show called One Day at a Time

[@radioactivepi734]

Mari Edit thanks! I’ll be sure to check it out (:

[@irdiseddere7752]

Well I gotta say this aged...like milk or wine, I don't know but it aged

[@crazycaravan4773]

By two years 😊

[@mastermavrick1818]

"So close to being self-aware it's almost funny" is a good summary of Riverdale

[@blissinchains]

Using Supergirl as an example might not have been the best choice. The so-called "fandom" the actors were telling off there had harassed and bullied and body-shamed multiple cast members and crew, insisting that Lena and Kara are gay. (They are not, in fact gay, to that point.) Chris Wood and Mehcad Brooks in particular were mocked for their physical appearance, the targets of hate speech and even death threats. I think if the showrunners gave toxic people what they wanted even after the colossal abuse endured at their hands by their employees, it's be rewarding hateful behavior. Some of these people also TRACKED DOWN FLORIANA LIMA'S GRANDFATHER on Twitter and harassed him to know Flo's sexuality and if she was a real life Latina. There is a sense of entitlement burgeoning in fandom, in general that is incredibly worrisome. Flo's nationality is nobody's business. The fact that Chris Wood's father died as a result of mental illness is nobody's business. Melissa is not going to "leave him" to get with Katie irl just because a few toxic people want them to. They claim to be a mere vocal minority, but there's hundreds of thousands of these people. Most of SG's cast now eschew's social media entirely. Kara and Lena WERE friends. There was never anything romantic there, and while I wouldn't laugh or poke fun at anyone who might see something there--demanding it become canon of the showrunners is not right. Harassing the cast is not right. If Chris Wood never wants to come back, I won't blame him. But even if Mon-El never makes a reappearance, the chances of a Super and a Luthor getting together (already slim given the bad blood) are far in the negative below zero now thanks to the "fandom" which made the entire cast so fed up that they sang that song at a National, high profile convention like SDCC. They're done. And I don't blame them for it, nor should anyone else in light of how they were treated.

[@caobadraconis5560]

I was hoping I would find a comment about this and I'm so glad I did. The whole situation regarding Supergirl was extremely unfair for the cast and crew, and numerous fans reached the point of being abusive towards them. Yes, singing a song mocking people may not have been the best decision the actors could make, but considering what fans had done by that point, I'm sure they must have been reasonably and understandably annoyed. And like you said, Lena and Kara fall very much under the category of friends. Talking as a bi/demisexual woman, I truly don't see how anyone sees their relationship as anything more than a normal friendship. I feel like this kind of situation has happened too with other popular shows like Sherlock. Regardless of what people see (I don't particularly see any intention in the show of ever portraying Holmes and Watson as a couple, even more considering they follow Doyle's stories in major plot points like relationships) there's been a lot of harassment directed towards the actors. For instance, Amanda Abbington (Mary Watson in the show, and married to Martin Freeman irl although recently separated) was bullied relentlessly to the point that Martin Freeman spoke out publicly about the harassment she was receiving from so called fans, and all because her character got between the ship part of the fandom liked. Her then husband had to call out fans publicly, and even then, people went against both of them saying they were accomplices to the queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is a real issue (I'm still mad at Cursed Child) but some fandoms need to stop reading friendships as something they are not, some fandoms need to actually pay attention to what the fiction is portraying. Healthy same sex friendships can and should exist in fiction too.

[@Materminds187]

Yeah, no. They have a very close relationship, so much to the point they are willing to die for one another. One of them is willing to travel half way across the world to grab food for one of them, and then break into a military base to steal journals from the other’s late brother the same episode. They have so much other a friendship they don’t want to be in a world where they are separated from eachother. Season 5 really did do a number on their characters but they do usually have a really close connection to one another. I know it had been stated a thousand times but it’s really telling how so many of their scenes end up paralleling scenes of Clark and Lois from the Reeves Superman movies. From what I’ve heard that whole “toxic fandom” thing can also be used to describe many of the other ships Kara is involved in in the show. This is Twitter we’re talking about. At this point I really want it to happen and for them to finally be happy together but I know the odds are almost impossible at this point because the writers haven’t realised what they’ve done.