What is Dependent Origination in Early Buddhism?

The Buddhist notion of dependent origination is a complicated and difficult subject. We'll look at its manifestation in the early teachings, in its canonical twelve-step formula as well as in formulations that are simpler. Then we'll tackle the question of how to unbind oneself from the chain altogether.
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✅ Book:
Bhikkhu Bodhi The Great Discourse on Causation: amzn.to/2DCn8gJ
✅ Suttas discussed in this video:
The Mahāhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28.28): suttacentral.net/en/mn28
The Nidāna Saṃyutta (e.g., SN 12.1): suttacentral.net/en/sn12.1
The Kalahavivāda Sutta (Snp. 4.11): suttacentral.net/en/snp4.11
The Mahānidāna Sutta (DN 15): suttacentral.net/en/dn15
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Please visit the Secular Buddhist Association webpage!
secularbuddhism.org/
Disclaimer: Amazon links are affiliate links where I will earn a very small commission on purchases you make, at no additional cost to you. This goes a tiny way towards defraying the costs of making these videos. Thank you!

[@leeburkai9830]

Easy to say, achieved through difficulty. Letting go, dissolving the blockages we hold to, cling to, fixate on. When all is dissolved what we are left with is who we truly are. Emptiness becomes form, form is emptiness. Practice, practice, practice. Persevere. De Oppresso Liber. Thank you for sharing Doug.

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@KeyboardPlaysGames]

Excellent post, instead of "Let it go" which is a combination of aversion and desire. Instead, the Buddha taught let it be, "What is seen, is only what is seen Bahiya" . The unconditioned element is found in the absense of both Desire and Aversion, which can be achieved by letting it be.

[@jerclarkedotorg]

Okay I ended up pausing this and just finished it now, and I'd like to add one more thing: Thank you for doing such a complicated video! This is the kind of all-round perspective that we need if we're going to understand a complex subject like dependent origination, with references all throughout the dhamma to other concepts. 👍

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for your kind note, Jer! 🙏

[@xiaomaozen]

I've just read Bhikkhu Bodhi's pithy and clear comment on dependent origination in _In the Buddha's Words._ Your explanation is in no way inferior to his one. Quite the contrary! The possibility of "secular" interpretations opens the doors to an even deeper understanding... 🙏🏻

[@DougsDharma]

I think so too xiao mao! Bhikkhu Bodhi's interpretations are typically clear and incisive as you note, but they are definitely more traditional. That's fine for those who are attracted by that way of thinking. 🙂

[@AwakenYourInnerBuddha]

Thanks for putting all these information in a comprehensive way.

[@DougsDharma]

My pleasure! 🙏😊

[@value8035]

Thank you very much again. This is clearly the most far-fetched topic and the pinnacle of Buddhism. As you very nicely put, it can cater more than one interpretations specially the momentary and life-to-life scenarios. Regarding the first two links, it is important to understand them, because Avijja (usually translated as ignorance) is a the core of everything. I would like to translate/rethink the term 1.Avijja as randomness in contemporary/ secular context. We tend to see pattens in randomness, which is the 2.Sankhara (edition). When we edit randomness as "patterns", we tend to recognise and conscious about them (3. Vinjjana) when they repeat. Then we label them, literally with a name forming a pair of name and shape/form (4.Nama-Roopa) . Then we diversify our 'enterprise' with faculties for different types of patterns(5. Salayathana), and keep-in-touch with the patterns (6.Phassa). Then we feel good or bad, (7. Vedana), Again, we try to see develop signals on what feels good or bad and tend to Cling on to them(8. Sangja) and then comes craving(9.Upadana), When we crave something, we want it to coninue. (10.Bhava) So it repeats(11.Jathi), however, this cannot lasts so the 12. ugliness , death and lamentations.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, thanks Value. There are many interpretations possible for the links of dependent origination. 🙂

[@IshmanDebba]

Thank you Doug. I always find your videos very informative and helpful. I appreciate them a lot.

[@DougsDharma]

My pleasure, glad you enjoy them. 🙏

[@aveljano]

Hi Doug, a huge thank you for this video and your great channel! Although I heard it many times, the concepts didn't stick in my mind untill recently and a friend told me that this was dependent origination. I've had to put the pen to paper to note all the concepts you mentioned. I also got a huge whiteboard for the kitchen just to transcribe this for the benefit of my family. ;)

[@DougsDharma]

😄 Hey great Alexandar, I hope your family enjoys learning about such deep topics! 😄

[@olgamedvedeva6052]

Although it is challenging, learning this is amazingly interesting and it finally cleared my mind and helped understand this topic. Thank you so much!

[@DougsDharma]

Glad it was helpful Olga! Yes, it is pretty challenging stuff ... 😄

[@tedulinski6509]

Bravo! Highly recommend: P. A. "Payutto: Dependant Origination The Buddhist Law of Conditionality", translated from the Thai by Bruce Evans, copyright 1994 Buddhadamma Foundation. Consolidates interpretations across the Pali Cannon.

[@DougsDharma]

🙏🙏

[@polarisgemini52]

I don't call myself a secular Buddhist per se and spend most of my time listening to Theravada monks but I definitely don't accept traditional rebirth. But my interpretation of rebirth has been in the sense that the false self that we adhere/cling to is born and die again and again within this lifetime. This self constantly changes, holds different view of life and hence is reborn over and over again. We make the same mistakes and cling to the same harmful things because we don't remember what we felt that very moment in the past(since the self of that that moment is dead). This probably doesn't make sense but it does and works for me lol

[@DougsDharma]

Yes this is a common reinterpretation of rebirth, that we are reborn each moment as we grasp at a new sense of self.

[@MantrTheSpiceGuy]

Thanks man. When I first saw that when I was reading a passage of the Udana Sutta I wasn't sure what to think about it. I didn't quite understand it.

[@DougsDharma]

You’re very welcome Juan, yes it is kind of complicated and takes time to understand.

[@johnmeeker9752]

This is fantastic. Thank you Doug.

[@DougsDharma]

My pleasure. 🙏

[@kusalki]

I have heard that once Ven.Ananda asked the Buddha...Dependent co-orgigination is not that complex I easily understood it...Then Buddha replied don't say that Ananda..Its very deep and hard to understand...So may be if we think we understood it, probably its not the reality...🤔🤔 Thanks Doug..🙏🌹❤

[@DougsDharma]

Yes it's hard to know! 😄

[@truth8307]

That was over 2500 years ago when people are much less intelligent, I am sure we are different today, at least with more scienctific and general knowledge that helps us to understand Buddha's teachings better.

[@nigelsheppard625]

​@@truth8307 I can't agree that people were less intelligent. Perhaps their view of the world, how they viewed their world, how they retained knowledge was different but it wasn't less sophisticated.

[@truth8307]

@@nigelsheppard625 you can put it in such explaination too. A person's mental faculty is due to past lives and rebirth too. This explains why more than half the world population could believe in a god despite science, and to make it worse, a fake God, it's all due to their karma, if you understand full knowledge of karma.

[@chengatang4]

This is very detailed and clear, thank you very much for the great work!

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome chengatang4, I'm glad you found it useful. 🙏

[@michelledunford7718]

Great video. Thank you! Be well!

[@DougsDharma]

Thank you! You too Michelle!

[@yhseow4459]

Well explained! Thank you Doug. I guess the best interpretation is one that helps a particular individual cease dukkha. So it can be different as long as it is helpful. Our volition prime our mind to take interest or disagree with certain aspect of our experiences. When condition arises, corresponding pleasant or unpleasant feelings arises. That in turns becomes conditions for craving, clinging and a sense of self-identity (existence). Existence prime our mind again before the next contact and the wheel of samsara continue to roll on. Understand that volition is not substantial, like a plantain tree, will help the mind loosen its grip. Ignorance is failure to notice how this process unfolds. That's an interpretation I find useful in managing daily disturbances.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes that's great YH Seow, thanks for your comment. 🙏

[@robertlewisart]

Thank you for this explanation.

[@DougsDharma]

My pleasure, Robert!

[@williamcallahan5218]

Nicely done and I shared... Thank you

[@DougsDharma]

My pleasure! Thanks for sharing. 🙏

[@sarahk802]

I just found your channel and it's awesome! Thank you so much!

[@DougsDharma]

Thank you Sarah for watching!

[@coke39stgo]

Thank you Doug. I really liked the view of this concept with the five step chain. Could you please send a link to this area in the Sutta Nipata please? I haven’t been able to find it in www.bosquetheravada.org

[@DougsDharma]

Hi Jorge, you’ll find a link to it in the information box below the video. I generally try to put links to suttas and other relevant material below each video. 🙂

[@mathieuavisse4623]

there are some good points thou !

[@johnwillans3107]

Doug, thanks so much for explaining the working of Dependent Origination within one lifetime. This has removed an obstacle for me. Like many others I do not have a belief in re-birth so I could not see the significance of Dependent Origination.

[@DougsDharma]

Glad it was helpful, John!

[@truth8307]

Then don't see as a re-birth of life but moment by moment.

[@thomasawdffaw123]

​@@truth8307in the pali canon the Buddha describes both, rebirth from moment to moment and from life to life. If you believe in both, or just the first, or none, is up to you :)

[@paulomoreira995]

OMG, this was the video i was look foorr thanks so much, this video olso has the anwser for my problem with not knowing how to control my curiosity

[@DougsDharma]

Glad it helped!

[@davidknight7933]

Many thanks

[@DougsDharma]

You are very welcome David!

[@dicsoncandra1948]

Hi Doug, I encourage you to look into Ajahn Nyanamoli's explanation of dependent origination based on Ven Nanavira's NoD. He explains it as a principle of simultaneity. the channel is called 'Hillside Hermitage'

[@stuartkaufman6131]

Awareness and that which is awared arise together. Self identity and that which is awared arise together. Neither exist without the other.

[@Thissapunyo]

Thank you Doug, I have just discovered your channel and it is a breath of fresh air compared to the minefield of attachment I have found 'religious' Buddhism to contain. Watching this video inspired me to consider our understanding of time as a construct. The concept of time enforces attachment by giving the false impression of fixed/tangible divisions of existance in the same way that attachment to objects divides reality to give the false impression of permanence. In reality consiencness moves like a fluid defined by experience.

[@DougsDharma]

You are very welcome John, glad you find the material useful. As for the subject of time, it is very strange! You may want to take a look at this video of mine about the present moment: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3O0i6OuhLmkqck

[@dave4534]

Hello Doug, This is my second time listening to this video with great benefit to my search for awakening. It seems from this view that your first interpretation of consciousness as what continues in rebirth is in confliction with the Buddha's teaching to one of his disciples that consciousness itself is dependently originated.

[@DougsDharma]

The traditional view is that consciousness is the link between one life and another. This (again, traditionally) is compatible with dependent origination: the consciousness in the prior life was dependently originated, as is the consciousness in the next life. My own view is that talk of prior or posterior lifetimes is speculative and we should leave it aside rather than trying to understand what isn't relevant to our practice in this very life.

[@coke39stgo]

Hi Doug. I follow your videos during my rehab from my hip surgery. Is dependent origination an explanation of why Dukkha (Suffering) emerges?

[@DougsDharma]

Good question Jorge, yes it is.

[@DougsDharma]

And once again, be well! Hip surgery can’t be any fun I’m sure.

[@coke39stgo]

Well Doug , I am very grateful for everything. I had an arthroscopic hip surgery for femoroacetabular impingement and that hurts less than the classic surgery with a big incision . I’m taking good nonopioid pain killers and I meditate everyday. Perla Kaliman and Richard Davidson made a controlled study that revealed that meditation inhibit the expression of genes related to inflammatory pathways. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24485481/ So here I am gathering Science and Spirituality.

[@DougsDharma]

Well whether or not it makes a real physical difference to recovery it is certainly helpful to our emotional well-being. That cannot be discounted. Glad you are able to stick with nonopioids and recovering well. 🙏

[@patrickcahill4396]

Hi Doug! Is 'Interdependent Co-arising' one in the same as 'Dependent Origination'? Or am I getting confused?

[@DougsDharma]

Yes indeed Patrick, there are so many different translations of paticcasamuppāda/pratītyasamutpāda that it's hard to keep them all straight!

[@patrickcahill4396]

Doug's Secular Dharma I particularly like Thich Nhat Hanh's way of interpreting it. I suppose it is a simplistic explanation but he says when you are drinking a cup of coffee for instance. You are also interacting with the cloud that fell as rain to supply the water. You are also 'Dependent' upon the soil that the coffee plant grew in etc etc. Quite beautiful I feel.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, that is a sort of new and much broader interpretation of dependent origination though. You don't find it described in that way in the original texts.

[@justalittledust]

Good talk! As I'm sure you're aware, I've studied and written a lot about the subject. Your understanding, presented here, comes so close to my own that I'm kind of blown away, given our history. One brief note here: I'm wondering if you've written about Sn 4.11 "Quarrels and Disputes" at greater length anywhere. I find myself a bit puzzled by your understanding of a sutta living in the "Chapter of Eights" describing only six links (Name-and-form, Contact, Feeling, Craving, Clinging, and finally Quarrels/Disputes/Suffering), and I'm wondering if you might've written about that somewhere (or vlogged about it, even).

[@justalittledust]

Of course, in my paper "Anatomy of Quarrels and Disputes" I recognized that it is missing the first two links of the traditional twelve -- so we agree there. We are also in concord that early on the Buddha did not include those first two (I wrote about it in my paper "The City" where he explicitly says that's so.) We both agree that the Senses got left out. But those three are all I saw as left out of the twelve. I found nine. But that's because what I see is a sutta as complex as dependent origination itself, running two parallel lines, one addressing externals, the other internals. You see both externals and internals addressed, too, in the bulk of this video. I hear it when you talk about our craving for and clinging to sense-objects, and the other parallel line addressing the creation of the self through the formation of opinions, which you more briefly address toward the end, here. So it seems to me that we agree on a great deal more than I thought we did. The major difference between your explanation and mine is just that I see perhaps every talk -- every detailed talk -- the Buddha gives about dependent origination addressing both sorts of clinging and craving that leads to trouble. I am certain that's what he intended, and "Quarrels and Disputes" lays it out so elegantly it takes my breath away.

[@DougsDharma]

Hi and thanks! I wouldn't want to say the Buddha left out the first three links. He certainly left them out sometimes, but other times he included them. It's difficult to precisely say why. It may be he had different audiences, it may be that his earlier talks on the matter had a shorter chain that in time got lengthened as he thought about it more or tried to incorporate more (e.g., Vedic) material. Who knows? I'm not sure I've written much about Sn 4.11. I did discuss the Sutta Nipāta in my paper about whether the Buddha was a non-realist, but that was in a more general sense, not about dependent origination in particular. I do think there is an argument to be made that it's an early seed of something that got elaborated later on in the Buddha's lifetime.

[@stutichandwani858]

It would be so helpful if you explain the early and contemporary interpretations of doctrine of dependent origination in detail

[@DougsDharma]

Yes it's complicated but I could do separate videos on both. This video attempts to sort of do both in the same discussion. 🙏

[@stutichandwani858]

@@DougsDharma I would also love watching your acknowledgement of the kalam cosmological theory and five arguments of Aquinas, proving the existence of god and contradicting the theory of dependent origination.

[@truth8307]

@@stutichandwani858 existence of god or not do not refute or debunk the 12 Dependant Originations, the Buddha don't believe in any god and he don't encourage anyone to believe or talk about any god, check his 4 conditions of Right Speech and you will know what I mean.

[@woodyexplorer]

The way I learned it in Thailand, the four notble truths consist of Dhukha, Samuthai (cause of Dhukha) which is explained by dependent origination, Niroj (the state of being enlightened), and lastly muk (what to do to achieve enlightment) which explained by the eight fold path.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I have a playlist on the Four Noble Truths: kzbin.info/aero/PL0akoU_OszRguYdCWSckAaVbhZxdb8Ia_

[@PunyMortal]

The 3rd noble truth is the cessation of suffering, not the state of being enlightened. Why would you need the 4th noble truth if you're already enlightened after the 3rd 😂

[@woodyexplorer]

@@PunyMortal The third is to confirm that there is a solution and what it looks like.

[@PunyMortal]

​@@woodyexplorer True. I just got hung up with you calling it 'the state of being enlightened', which in my understanding means attainment of nibbana. My thought process was: if the 3rd truth is about understanding that the cessation of craving leads to freedom, then one has to bring that cessation about by means of the eightfold path. Only then can there be enlightenment / complete cessation / nibbana, not before. It would be really interesting to know why you chose that wording (or why you've learnt the 3rd noble truth in this way) ✌

[@greenspringvalley]

The word ignorance as the image of a blind woman, I'm guessing, is different than the same word "ignorance" used to describe the pig in the center circle. (I don't know much about Buddhism but I wonder if the same word for both was used in the original writings OR if the words used to describe the 12 links pictures were later interpretations of the images.) The outside circle ignorance and the inside circle ignorance are preceded by different images.

[@DougsDharma]

The image you're referring to is actually not from early Buddhism but arose quite a bit later. I'd like to do a video on that eventually if I can find a good open source reproduction. That said, I'm not sure about the role of ignorance there, I'd have to look into it further.

[@LloydRhodesBrandon]

What I take away from this (my own interpretation); curious to hear other people’s thoughts: To prefer positive feelings to neutral and negative feelings is fine. When it becomes a problem is: - Demanding; seeing this thing as essential to my worth and happiness - Striving; desperately trying to keep positive feelings and have more and more of it, and keep away negative feelings and have less and less of the negative feelings - Identification; coming to identify with the source of positive feeling, or dissociate with the source of negative feeling All of these habits are much easier to break if you meditate regularly.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, exactly so Lloyd. If we become aversive to negative feelings we can get into a negative spiral of aversion.

[@LloydRhodesBrandon]

@@DougsDharma Thanks so much for getting back! That makes a lot of sense. i have been practicing seeing things this way and it is slowly helping a little. peace

[@amarok5048]

Having had it suggested by a teacher, I am currently looking at P S Payutto's pdf book on Dependent Origination. It is comprehensive but by no means a light read. It all depends on how much time you want to invest. Your observations seem good for purpose here. Thank you. The P S Payutto pdf can be searched on line and is free. The hard copy is going for sale at extortionate prices!

[@DougsDharma]

Yes often these thinly published books are hard to find at reasonable prices. Thanks for the suggestion, it's not a book I know.

[@amarok5048]

@@DougsDharma Here is the free download: www.thammapedia.com/dhamma/books/payutto/344.pdf

[@amarok5048]

Also, I have had two pdf books printed by this company, each arriving after only 2 days. They cost me less than £15 each hard copy: www.print-my-pdf.com/

[@amitapitre]

Hi, I am from India. So I would love to know all the Indian language terms such as dukkha for suffering and shoonyata for emptyness. Would be great to know others. Since we have the language, it makes a lot more sense :) Thanks for a great lecture

[@DougsDharma]

It's wonderful you're from India, yes so far as I know there are a lot of linguistic similarities between the ancient Pāli/Sanskrit terms and the terms used in contemporary languages in India. I don't know much about that though! 🙂

[@DipayanPyne94]

@@DougsDharma Doug, the word DUKKHA is used SO OFTEN in Hindi. We generally say 'Mai Dukhi Hoon', meaning 'I am sad', or, 'Dukh ho rha hai', meaning 'I am feeling sad'. The word DUKH is the Hindi version of the Pali DUKKHA and is often considered a Standard, even in movies, although the word UDĀS, with the same meaning, is also popular ...

[@absolutenice9100]

I think just like concept of ratio in mathematics one thing to the other like one is to two , so dependant orientation means how one thing arise from the other or one thing can be defined in contrast to other leading to the Buddhist noble truths . I think Paccekabuddha see this concept in an event in nature leading or encouraging him into going to vipassana thereby understanding it in the Nirodha Samapatti state by Vana Vedayita Nirodha thereby becoming awakened silent Buddha . However the aim of Buddhisattva remains to cultivate the Buddhicita spirit thereby becoming preachers of dhamma as Sammasambuddha thereby delaying nirvana for the benifit of sentient beings and achieving the ultimate perfect enlightment the fruition , the three universal truths as vipasana meditative insights in the Nirodha Samapatti state by themselves 😊 , thereby achieving greater liberation than Pacekkabuddhas and laying down the Buddhasasana and the Dhammawheel through the four noble truths and establishing the Tripitika .

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for your thoughts Absolute Nice! 🙏

[@MichaelMarko]

Wow bro! You got me wantin’ to say “dasein”! LOL

[@DougsDharma]

😄Go right ahead!

[@smileyp4535]

Whenever I hear of of the "pali canon" I always think you're saying "poly canon" as in a canon made of multiple sources or something lol so I appreciate putting the actual word on screen, thank you 😁👍

[@DougsDharma]

😄😄

[@mathieuavisse4623]

the only way of getting rid of craving is through wisdom. restraining the six sense doors will help you getting to équanimity and have insights on DO and then stream entry unfolds .

[@jeremyweate4045]

Thank you Doug for de-mystifying this quite challenging area. I'd be interested to know your views on the RAIN technique (tricycle.org/magazine/rain/) as one way of breaking the chain. Aside from the theory, it seems to me to be a very practical approach to de-linking feelings (of attraction/craving or repulsion/fear) and liberating practitioners beyond the protective cage of the ego.

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome Jeremy, thanks for watching. The RAIN technique is basically an updating and repackaging of Buddhist Vipassana (Insight) practice. It can definitely be a great way to approach life!

[@yongjiean9980]

Dependent Origination explains the second noble truth - how suffering (i.e. renewed existence and rebirth) arises Dependent Origination explains what we take as an idea of a "self" is a fallacy. Just a process of conditionality and causality. (You are dependent origination!)

[@DougsDharma]

That's right, "you" are dependently arisen, as is suffering.

[@sonhuanson]

I think dependent origination is the demostration (like a demostration of math problem you can verify your self) that point out to emptiness (the absence of sustancial self). You can explore about that (dependent origination), is not only one asertation to belive. Make the observation (or not observation of self), your self (big contradiction!). In what of this 12 arisings is the me and mine? At every step? Betwen every step? In all togethers? For me, the difficulty of the 12 is what reference framework? where is ignorance (really the firts trhee). Is in universal conciessness?, into or outside life and death?, into or outside space-time?....) what is the reference here. And why when you put there, wisdown at first, all 12 collapses in serie (no more framework). Begin with arisig of nama-rupa, as reference framework, is most easy to understand because is something all beings we can known. For me, last explanation of born, as fixation of idea the self (mana conciessness?) make sens. Mana Is like a primer ministre taking the place of king, hack the system, made other ministers, six conciessness, all toghether work in delusion mode and go directly to existence and dukkha. If is not see, is ignorance; if we see, is wisdowm. So the thing is, see ignorance like ignorance (delusion like delusion). Reality, as independents phenomenas, collapses. (When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
 When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that). So, is something there independly existent? What is the reality? It say: We must see it with the ears and hear it with the eyes. Go beyond all together, to Buda´s side. I hope this as meaning! otherwise...

[@halnine5738]

Is it called Pratītyasamutpāda?

[@DougsDharma]

Yes that's the Sanskrit name for it.

[@wowwowwow185]

is it just cause and affect ,

[@DougsDharma]

Well yes, in its simplest form that’s right.

[@normalizedaudio2481]

ALGO thinks I want to watch these old videos. ALGO thinks it is so smart.

[@DougsDharma]

😂

[@jeremyc4893]

@13:00 In SN 12.67, consciousness and mentality-materiality are likened to two bundles of reeds standing leaning against each other, supporting each other. They are said to arise together, and cease together. So consciousness and mentality-materiality are dependent on each other. One cannot exist without the other. Thus mentality-materiality must be the object of consciousness, i.e. phenomena, or what is perceived by consciousness, since consciousness must have an object.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, that's right Jeremy, thanks. That's one way to interpret the link between those two.

[@jeremyc4893]

@@DougsDharma What's the other way?

[@DougsDharma]

In a traditional interpretation of the twelve-link chain, it's about rebirth through the "gandhabba" or linking consciousness bringing about mentality-materiality.

[@jeremyc4893]

@@DougsDharma Ok, but paticca samupadda seems to be about the origination of suffering more than about rebirth. I'm uncertain but I think relinking consciousness is an Abhidhamma concept. Also it seems that the gandhabba is an intermediate existence and not a stand alone consciousness as consciousness requires nama-rupa.

[@DougsDharma]

The gandhabba is mentioned in the suttas. Hard to know what to say about it since it's not explained, simply mentioned as one factor necessary for (traditional) rebirth. I agree with you that paticcasamupada is more about the origin of suffering, though as I say traditionally it has many interpretations.

[@konstantinNeo]

So basically dependent origination is the concept of whole and all inclusive oneness? Imho Buddhism glosses over the mechanics of values. How does the mind crave? What is the model? If the mind can aquire a thought, can the mind let go of the thought? How would you go about that? It is much easier for a mind to become focused if its empty. How do you let go of the idea of value? Another fundamental error in Buddhism is that Oneness has not been understood and this leads to constant mixing up the world of limits with the limitless. If I would like to learn how to surrender, how to forgive and how to renunciate, where should I go? Is there a school for that?

[@DougsDharma]

Well dependent origination isn't quite the same as oneness, at least not in the early texts. Later on it took on that connotation. For more on this see: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYKxaKaMosieqdE

[@mathieuavisse4623]

not all things are interelated > how would that be of any help -

[@Knm67]

Great👍 Secular interpretation of dependent origination. I am very much delighted and interested

[@DougsDharma]

Wonderful Narendra, thanks for your kind comment! 🙏

[@coke39stgo]

Doug. One question for you. How can neutral feelings lead me to craving and clinging? How can neutral feelings lead me to suffering? Thanks.

[@DougsDharma]

Hi Jorge and thanks for the great question. Yes, I agree that neutral feelings don't seem problematic in the same way that pleasant and painful feelings do. The answer is that neutral feelings can tend to lead to *ignorance*. Basically when in the grip of neutral feelings we cease to care about working towards betterment in the same way that say painful feelings can be a spur to us.

[@truth8307]

Because neutral feelings are still feelings which can lead to desire or aversion.

[@yazanasad7811]

Non self- not personal, not parts of who I am (flow, come and pass away, so sense of self that is being birthed)

[@ivritisrael5080]

Consider the mis translation of name and form which was originally intended to be mind and matter.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes there is a certain amount of controversy around that compound.

[@bradleyjbauer]

omitting avijja and sankhara from the chain??? appreciating your perspective, i would like to share one that is different… as i have experienced dhamma, avijja (suffering) and sankhara (mental conditioning/reactions) are necessary for the cycle of conditioned arising and that leaving them out devalues their importance to dhamma… avijja… ignorance… the second noble truth, w/ raga and dosa (craving and aversion), three principle mental defilements (cause of all suffering)… sankhara… reaction… volitional activity*… mental conditioning… there are both ‘past’ and ‘present’ sankhara**… *a note on volitional activity… much of this activity is taking place at the ‘unconscious’ level… we do, however, still have the ability to regulate this activity and are not mere victims of its’ whim… by following the aria atthangika magga (noble eightfold path) we are able to control our mental kamma (actions) at an unconscious level… ** past sankhara are stored as mental conditioning and then arise during contact in the form of present sankhara, or reaction (mental kamma), to the contact based on past conditioning… once arisen, sankhara are again stored as mental conditioning… -sankhara are reaction out of ignorance that gives future results… - contact between matter (rupa) and a sense door (consciousness/vinnana) occurs… the contact is perceived (sanna)and immediately evaluated in relation to past conditioning (past sankhara) (pleasant/unpleasant/neutral)… instantly, there is a sensation (vedana)on the body that is then assigned the previous evaluation and one ‘believes’ that the evaluation is inherent in the sensation (which it is not)… this is where present sankhara arise… when one experiences these sensations through a lens of ignorance, thinking that they have inherent qualities, one is bound to ‘react’ with craving/aversion… this ignorant reaction, based on past conditioning, is the present sankhara… the stronger the reaction, the more fuel that is added to the past sankhara stores, resulting in stronger reactions in future, hence, greater suffering… - if this store of sankhara did not exist(the end of conditioned arising), one would not be conditioned and would therefore experience the unconditioned field of nibbana… i will be grateful for any response, thoughts, dialectic that you manifest through your intentions… may all beings be content…

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for your comments Bradley. Indeed, ignorance and volitional formations (avijja and saṇkhāra) are critical to the chain of dependent origination, as you note. They are apparent in craving and clinging: without ignorance there would be no craving and clinging, and craving and clinging are both (unskillful) volitional formations. So we haven't omitted them from the chain, they are still part of the chain. 🙂

[@bradleyjbauer]

respectfully, this seems a little like saying that we don't have to recognize one between zero and two because it is already in the sequence in the number 11... if not recognized and dealt with in their position in the chain, you end up with 'depending on death, consciousness arises'... but consciousness isn't just dependant on death, it is also dependant on past sankhara being present and arising... it seems as though your reasoning only deals with present sankhara, not recognizing the old store of sankhara which IS our conditioned state...

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for your further comments Bradley. The formulation as I consider it does not fail to take into account past saṇkhāra; dependent origination is meant as a loop as much as a chain, as it was in the early formulation, and we are undergoing its causes and effects all the time. Our present problems depend partly on having gone through the chain before. Also recall that neither avijja nor saṇkhāra occur in the formulation found in the Mahānidāna Sutta. That sutta begins the chain with an interaction between consciousness and nāmarūpa, and avijja and saṇkhāra are not explicitly included. If indeed as you suggest the explicit mention of avijja and saṇkhāra as such (rather than as aspects of other links in the chain) were absolutely essential, then the Mahānidāna Sutta formulation of dependent origination would be faulty, but it is not.

[@justalittledust]

@@DougsDharma Where in early formulations do we find Dependent Arising looping? I've never found a sutta in which we go from the last link back to the first. If you've found one I'd love to read it.

[@santelang]

Dependent origination in simple world in sufi poem, "Gods mirror broke and fell on earth. Every part took the mass of earth and claim mine". Now they are not ready to give that matter. Why? They cling to it. When they through non clinging frees and come to as a piece of polished mirror, they go to source, The Absolute. It's been explained in one sutta by Buddha's disciple as, "The cause that exist for birth, for that cause and cessation of that, Tathagata has come"!

[@DougsDharma]

I think I understand the metaphor here, and it's interesting sandeep. Thanks.

[@kephns]

I’m confused about why the Buddha explicitly denied that there was “no self”, and yet did not say if there was a “self” either. Either- 1) He avoided having to say these because they are mental constructs and this would entrap him in a specific “opinion” which in itself is a form of clinging. 2) Buddha’s theory here of dependent origination proves that there is both self and non-self simultaneously. 3) Dependent origination “in itself” can be considered to be what one is, and what one is is a continually changing impermanent process. 4) One should know all these concepts but never identify with any concept because concepts are mental traps that result in clinging and therefor one should walk the earth with an attitude of indifference until they achieve nirvana (or not), never fully accepting or not-accepting a sense of self. ARGH!! Please explain! (And yes I watched your video on self-no-self and it still did not answer this for me fully).

[@DougsDharma]

Well kephns I think it sort of depends on what we mean when we use terms like “self”. In the Buddha’s day this ordinarily meant a permanent, unchanging, immortal soul that was the center of our aims for liberation. The Buddha denied the existence of such a thing. But we might also mean a kind of changeable flow to experience that we can make more skillful over time. He used the word “self” to discuss the center of our efforts along the path. BUT part of that effort is not to become attached to self. I think partly for that reason he did not want to elaborate any positive theory of a self, out of concern that we would cling to it.

[@kephns]

Thank you so so much! That helps tons! I’m so grateful for your videos, they make sense of some extremely complex and information. Sometimes the information just seems so scattered as your trying to study it- you just keep wanted a simplified structured guidebook but people just jump from one thing to the next. I suppose what I’m saying is that it would be extremely nice to just have a map with a dichotomization of all the groups of training that form sort of a visual tree of what connects to what, and what is practiced in conjunction to what. For instance, the noble eightfold path, breaks down in so many ways, it would be great to see that broken down into a simple visual dichotomy/tree.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes kephns, that would need to be a very large tree though! Indeed the Buddha's teaching is famously recursive, in that each of his teachings is part of others so a map would end up going round in circles ... 🙂

[@thepaulhowell]

It's impossible to respond to all of this in this forum. 1)The Buddha never said that there wasn't anything there, but he said plenty about what does NOT constitute a "self" as most people identify with. The Buddha laid out lots of exercises to help us see that there is not a permanent, unchanging entity that we can call a "self". Yet even emptiness is filled to the brim with causes and conditions. The Buddha was asked directly "Is there a self?" and then "Is there not a self?" to which he stayed silent. The questioner was asking the wrong questions and if the Buddha answered yes or no to either, it would confuse the person and cause him to completely misunderstand the Buddha's insights and teachings. 2) This dualism is not found in Early Buddhism. 3) The Buddha's chief disciple Sariputta declared that seeing Dependent origination is seeing the Dhamma because it details every part of the four noble truths, the workings of the cycle of samsara and rebirth and how overcoming ignorance liberates one from all of it. 4) Dependent Origination is not concepts, it's seeing and understanding each link fully with a crystal clear mind, a pure mind unsullied by the asavas, a mind that goes beyond namarupa and consciousness, a mind that the Buddha diligently cultivated.

[@osanda2313]

Why do they say "there is no seeing or seer or there is no observation or observer, you are both" kind of saying?

[@DougsDharma]

I'm not sure about that one Osanda, where do you find that?

[@osanda2313]

@@DougsDharma I can't remember. I heard something like that. Do they see dependent origination in insight meditation and work their way backwards to break the chains?

[@justalittledust]

@@osanda2313 I certainly have, and moreso in mindful moments.

[@MikeTooleK9S]

can doug stop time?

[@DougsDharma]

Noooo ...

[@billymellon9481]

gems in a net mang sweet on the mind 369 freq as builder standing waves as holes

[@hengthe]

eyebuydirecy glasses?

[@DougsDharma]

Do you mean my glasses? They're these type (it's an affiliate link): amzn.to/2SN5sLK

[@matthewrousseau1821]

This sounds almost like wave collapse theory in particle physics. At least in a superficial way. I'm sure somebody who knows about quantum mechanics will correct me.

[@mathieuavisse4623]

this is the common misunderstanding of DO . it's momentary - all 12 steps are present at the same time

[@truth8307]

Not exactly the same "time" since one conditions the next.

[@alkadhoke7319]

Meaning of rebirth is not explained truly . It is arising and passing away of Nam _Rupa , in present moment of life .

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, that is a good way to understand it. Thanks Alka.

[@leongcheeyip]

Ignorance has an origin, Taints. However the origin of Taints is also ignorance. Can you shed some light please? Sariputta: With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance... With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. Sammaditthi Sutta MN 9, 64-71.

[@DougsDharma]

Well ignorance is one of the taints, that’s all it’s saying. I wouldn’t put too much more thought into it. 🙂

[@oldstudent2587]

Laozi, which maybe is the equivalent 'early Daoism' expresses dependent origination in verse 2, which begins, 天下皆知美之為美，斯惡已。皆知善之為善，斯不善已。 "Everyone all knows what beauty is, so ugliness exists. All know what good is, so not good exists."

[@truth8307]

That dependent origination by Laozi is different from Buddha's 12 Dependant Originations.

[@oldstudent2587]

@@truth8307 In what way?

[@truth8307]

@@oldstudent2587 that quote you mentioned with beauty and ugliness or good and evil proved their opposites and how they can be seen but 12 Dependant Originations is about the process of the 12 causes and effects leading to moment to moment and life to life rebirth.

[@oldstudent2587]

@@truth8307 I disagree. The first phrase of what I quoted is properly translated as, "everyone knows what beauty is, so ugliness exists," as I had done. It specifically states that ugliness is the result of people knowing what is beautiful, and so deals explicitly with causation of the pairs it lists. It expressly says that beauty and ugliness emerge together, or as the first chapter says (about being and non-being), 此兩者，同出而異名，... -- "these two things emerge together but are differently named.." In other words, dependently originated.

[@mathieuavisse4623]

this is not a chain

[@liowpohhuat9107]

According to Buddha our the origination of universe due to burst of desire.

[@sonamtshering194]

In my opinion dependent origination denies the independence and affirms interdependence

[@DougsDharma]

Yes it is certainly a theory of interdependence.

[@alaksoglossian8456]

IMHO Buddhadasa teaches that the 12 links are for scholars to argue about. He teaches a shorter DO for practitioners that makes the practical application of DO possible For peeps like me. 🙏🏼 Buddhadasa wasn’t a fan of Buddhaghosa and his scholarly approach to DO among other things.

[@alaksoglossian8456]

Paticcasamuppada (Dependent Co-arising) Buddhadasa Bhikkhu kzbin.info/aero/PLWPh4CKxHuQ_FRQ71XgpYKiAQYHStM4YR

[@DougsDharma]

Yes Buddhadasa's approach was more of a secular take on the material.

[@alaksoglossian8456]

I asked Meta AI this a few days ago: ‘So is it safe to say that Buddhadasa didn’t reject the traditional Thai Buddhist understanding of rebirth and kamma but instead focused on practical application of those teachings” Meta AI answer: “That's a great way to put it! Buddhadasa Bhikkhu didn't outright reject the traditional Thai Buddhist understanding of rebirth and kamma, but rather, he chose to focus on the practical applications and implications of those teachings in daily life. He emphasized the importance of understanding rebirth and kamma in a way that leads to wisdom, ethical conduct, and mental discipline, rather than getting bogged down in dogmatic or literal interpretations. By shifting the focus to practical application, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu encouraged his students to prioritize mindfulness, wisdom, and personal responsibility in the present moment, rather than getting caught up in speculation about past or future lives. This approach allowed him to connect with traditional Thai Buddhist beliefs while still offering a fresh, innovative, and socially engaged perspective on the teachings. So, it's accurate to say that Buddhadasa Bhikkhu built upon traditional Thai Buddhist understandings, but with a strong emphasis on practical application and social relevance.”

[@user-iq5og7fv1q]

the lord Budda challenged us to investigate hi

[@farmerjohn6526]

This is related more to Hinduism than true Buddhism imo. Buddha had to leave this because of all those Hindus he was teaching. Not really needed.

[@Konchog_Ngodrup]

I can observe your point here however I would argue that for some it is a valued teaching of the Buddha because by seeing the science of how things are interconnected and relate you can use this as a tool with the body and mind. Sometimes it can be useful to observe these functions within your own mind. This can allow you to use the same method to bring about clarity and change for the benefit of all beings.

[@ruwanweerakkody5411]

You can't have buddhism without rebirth. 'Interpreting' it outside of rebirth is just plain misinterpretation.

[@DougsDharma]

Many have left rebirth to one side in their interpretation of the dhamma. We are interested in how practice relates to this life. If this approach does not attract you, that's fine, the traditional approach is still there for you to follow.

[@GregoryWonderwheel]

Caveat Auditor: listener beware! It still makes me laugh every time I hear "secular Buddhism" which is an oxymoron like "military intelligence." The notion of "satirizing" Vedic cosmology is ridiculous. Leaving out the first two links is exactly the ignorance of the first link. Making an understanding that is "congenial to modern thinking" is a good expression of the ignorance and craving of "secular Buddhism." This video will mislead anyone interested in learning about co-dependent origination with its half-truths. The chain of the origination of argumentation is entirely different in context and meaning from the chain of the origination of birth-old age-death. This video conflates the two chains and leads to birth and death from its ignorance.

[@DougsDharma]

Well the claim about satirizing Vedic cosmology comes not from secular Buddhists but from scholars of early Buddhism. And I did an earlier video on whether secular Buddhism was an oxymoron. It might interest you! kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoi9coOggNF0ia8

[@dandamerville]

Hi Greg -- I appreciate your interesting comments. You do know, I'm sure, that calling "military intelligence" is a politically motivated joke. It's a term that is widely and clearly understood. Similarly, "Secular Buddhism" is a term and concept that confuses and bothers many, but it's not an oxymoron.

[@ultrafeel-tv]

Way too intellectual and chaotic. Study a little advaita to find focus!

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for your thoughts fox ultrafeel.

[@sailorr4287]

4:22, and so far a complete waste if time, teaching backward from “is not,” “not really,” etc… 16 mins remain to make some progress.

[@sailorr4287]

This is a low value video in terms of dependent origination. The speaker describes his opinions about what Buddha taught, and describes what a secular Buddhist practice might be based on, and to a limited stent, what it might involve. Then he spends more time explaining how complicated depending origination is but not dependent origination. Since dependent origination has to come before the human being in order for there to be a human being, it makes no sense at all to illuminate ignorance and volition as the starting point Read and understand Chomsky to get Howell name in form and consciousness, arise together. Read and understand goose Penrose, and that South African who’s in Edinburgh, now to get some sense of origination.

[@SammaVaca]

I feel sad how western audience reduce Dhamma to an academic exercise. Instead it is meant to be realized through one's own experience by practicing walking on the path. And they leave out rebirth as if they know that there is only one birth. There is no proof for the theory of one life only but there are a ton of clues pointing to rebirth.

[@DougsDharma]

No need to feel sad Nikhil, not everyone approaches practice in the same way. Some people are uplifted by different parts than others are. This is just human nature, and nobody is trying to change your opinions on the matter.

[@SammaVaca]

​@@DougsDharma I guess that's true too. Everyone has their own conditioning and thus have different starting points for getting on the path. Westerners often come from an environment of Christian Faith. And when they can't relate to it, they often turn to "Science and reason", etc. That makes it hard for them to then have faith in something else (e.g. what the Buddha said) which can't be proved using "science" (i.e. science of physical/material realm as opposed to science of the conscious realm, which is what the Buddha taught). In a way, it is a deep-seated fear of developing faith in something that could turn out to be wrong. Perhaps they might start off with an intellectual understanding and hopefully one day, develop just enough faith to try practicing "Right Meditation". And when they start getting results, the faith will grow stronger, ultimately reaching the "critical mass" to propel them to Nibbana. There are others who don't have the religious baggage but undergo decades of education which is all about Science of the Physical realm. And due to all the material comforts that they can enjoy due to "science", they have deep faith in the Science of Physical Realm. They may have spent many thousands of hours learning that kind of science, but are uncomfortable if you ask them to explore the science of consciousness for even 10 minutes. They believe that the same "scientific method" which applies to the physical realm should also apply to the science of conscious realm, but unfortunately that is not the case. All the laws about Physical Matter (and Energy) are validated by measuring "matter using matter". But consciousness can not be directly measured using matter. You need to explore consciousness using consciousness. I guess people with such conditioning will eventually realize that these "material comforts" are conditionally generated and eventually lead to suffering, and that the physical science can not unravel the laws of consciousness and happiness. For some, that point may come within this life-time, for others it may take few more life-times.

[@nealamesbury1480]

No such thing as secular buddhism

[@gabrielleangelica1977]

There is now...

[@arlechino2]

Please, I understand Indra's Net--but Dependent (or Interdependent) Origination, is bullshit: Bad science and bad phenomenology

[@DougsDharma]

Maybe you can elaborate?

[@arlechino2]

I think that I just don't understand what exactly is being talked about. Being, ontology I can grasp; but coming-into-being, cause-and-effect (at least since David Hume analyzed it out of existence) is nonsensical to me. @@DougsDharma

[@DougsDharma]

Well Hume didn't analyze these things out of existence he merely recast them as regularities. Giving a Humean analysis of Buddhist causation would be anachronistic but it could be done. I don't think that it would make any substantive difference.

[@jean-michellaurora1854]

Many thanks

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome Jean-Michel!