What is Justice? Analyzing The Oresteia by Aeschylus

[@vasilislemon7842]

Oresteia should be taught in all law schools of the world...this ancient greek tragedy is the most profound intellectual, still artistic, exercise on the meaning of "Justice". Great analysis of a great play!

[@Havre_Chithra]

Amen!

[@ThomasSimmons-u5x]

Have come to the opinion that overall, this is the best pod in the tube. Brilliant, thoughtful expression - thank you!

[@pwnedshift1]

my man. first Oedipus, then Oresteia, it's like this season of the podcast was made for me! it was reading these two works that put Nietzsche on my radar, by way of Birth of Tragedy, and has set me on a course that I never really expected to find myself on.

[@golubhimself]

Talk about a re-evaluation of all values Great job! We need more of this

[@setsen337]

My favourite thing in the ancient world. I've watched Davis' series on tragedy 1000 times, top tier analysis.

[@languagegame410]

LOVEthe artwork... f*cking amazing!!... keep doin' yo thang, Keeg!

[@kingdm8315]

Day just got better

[@XanDionysus]

The irony was lost on CS Lewis when he preferred to live under robber barrons than omnipotent moral busybodies.

[@nanashi7779]

Super interesting stuff

[@ashleycooperpop]

Woah! Just had a discussion in class about this, the algorithm is so on the nose sometimes haha

[@alexanderleuchte5132]

The overcoming of blood feuds and personal revenge to get to a social community based definition and rule of "Justice" as basis for peace and organisation of larger state-like structures seems to be a pivotal step in many cultures if not most. The Bible comes to mind with the strict limiting of retaliatory actions to equal retribution of "eye for eye, tooth for tooth." or the "Story of the Peacemaker" of the Iroquois, who stopped the infighting as foundation for the "Five Nations" Haudenosaunee Confederacy

[@warboats]

theres an excellent performance of aggememnon on youtube produced in the 80s thats well worth watching. this was an excellent talk, greek tragedy is so fucking compelling, powerfully emotional, even as our values have changed over 2000+ years, theres something dreadfully special to it that i could never articulate. imo the work of all three tragedians should be essential reading. schools should teach these instead of shakespear whose work i never connected to emotionally like the greek tragedies. medea is my favourite. ive read it so many times but the emotional intensity never dampens. great work with this talk, im motivated to read the oresteia again now.

[@DolanIre_blackhair]

Thank you

[@unknowninfinium4353]

Bruh, you got to link those amazing artworks man. Love the picture in this video. Where did you get it? Or name of the artwork?

[@untimelyreflections]

John Singer Sargent - Orestes Pursued by the Furies

[@unknowninfinium4353]

@@untimelyreflections Thanks man. Appreciate it, love your videos.

[@yeyohuevonhassassin2]

You love the man? You can never be unfaithfull to the dead, damn Orestes was a damn terminator.

[@illegallawyer]

It mythologizes the liberation of Dike from the Longhouse by Athena Promachos, whose giant statute towered over the Theatre of Dionysus.

[@hugoballroom5510]

a timely reflection

[@Monte-ux5ew]

Have you read "Ride the Tiger" by Julius Evola ? Lots of great Nietzsche analysis in it. Schopenhauer to Nietzsche and then finally Julius Evola.

[@austinmackell9286]

So there's a movie called Ten Canoes that I now think was a version of this.

[@warboats]

"The sleepless eye reviews in agony the drip of past atrocity. Light dawns even on the reluctant. A ruthless charity descends from gods on lofty thrones."

[@ReiRidingSolo]

What is this beautiful piece of art ?

[@untimelyreflections]

John Singer Sergeant - Orestes Pursued by the Furies

[@ReiRidingSolo]

​@untimelyreflections thank you ❤

[@pchabanowich]

Bless.

[@AquariusGate]

16:56 I'm drawn to think that an injustice can only be followed by another injustice, or forgiveness, or indifference. With justice as the goal, the matter to settle is offence. Injustice may prove to be an aspect of the case, but it is subjective/anecdotal.

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

Is justice a feeling or universal fact ?

[@AquariusGate]

@kalervolatoniittu2011 I imagine it being a social construct. As prisons once housed prisoners serving a punishment, they now hold terms of rehabilitation. I think justice is more the absence of feeling, but I would have to explain how so: Poor justice would create a sense of injustice on the victims part. Likewise, if the sentence filled the victim with glee, perhaps the ruling was too harsh. In saying the above it looks as if I favour justice being some kind of universal. Yes, a somewhat innate sense we hone and shape through a lifetime of experience. Good question!

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

@@AquariusGate thanks for your answer

[@zerotwo7319]

After this video, I can't understand how people think a book or divine law can be the "foundation" of civilization. I only see Furies from the religious types nowadays.

[@dibble1973]

You seem like a very nice chap. I see you also play death metal type music (catharsis?). I wonder to what degree your affinity for Nietzsche reflects an unsatisifed power drive? I think an episode where you discuss your own beliefs and psychology would be great for the listener. After all, there are ‘no philosophies, only philosophers!’

[@untimelyreflections]

I don’t play death metal, I play doom metal which is a very different type of music. Think more Black Sabbath, not Black Dahlia Murder.

[@gus8310]

Do you think that the change from the furies to the ammenades marked a change in Greek history where “forgiveness” was beginning? Or perhaps the view of turning the other cheek, but being owed for doing so. A form of forgiveness without bloodshed vengeance? How would you view these plays in regard to human evolution, would the plays be the voice of a zeitgeist?

[@cam-dasmartman]

Please make a podcast about Thus Spake Zarathustra

[@OlivierVerdys]

not a priority imho. ASZ is almost too popular.

[@kennethanderson8827]

Hmmmmmmmm. Rhetoricles Metaphoricles is gonna have to relisten to this ~ and the other myth episodes~~~ but especially this one. I sure did feel that familiar frustration of vengeance sublimation that I get from a certain Palestinian Jew. After all, the Gospels were written in Greek……..hmmmmmm🦉🐍✨🎶👣

[@austinmackell9286]

How does this account of the city gods over family gods fit (or not) with the idea that Jupiter (aka Zeus, Aka Deus Pater) for example, is an old Indo-European sky god, preceding Greek civilization?

[@untimelyreflections]

That’s an interesting question, I would look at it like this: It seems likely that in Greece (and for that matter, Rome and India), there was not originally one Zeus, but many deities called Zeus on the familial level, on the level of the tribe, the gens and then later the city. The notion that one Zeus governed all of Hellas seems to be relatively late in their development. The theory that makes the most sense to me is that many of these gods have the same names because of the common language and the fact that usually they’re named after some trait or quality of the god. So, Apollo has many names, such as Phoebus (the shining one); it isn’t too difficult to see how two different Greek speakers could independently come to call the sun “shining one”. Same with Jupiter (sky+father), and with all the other gods. So, I would put it this way: the “Zeus” that is the God of all the Hellenes would have been a newer understanding of the divine. Aeshcylus is dramatizing the intuitive or ancestral understanding of the Greeks that, before one Zeus ruled the Greek world, the highest law was family law, allegiance to one’s blood, etc.

[@austinmackell9286]

@@untimelyreflections Thanks. Yeah it's the linguistic or semiotic origin of Zeus that's been philologically traced, not the semantic or religious content, as far as I know, so that makes sense.

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

There will allways be blood,huh ?

[@justinscott8517]

Whoop! First comment!

[@Wilsonrre]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aICplpqmnt6eoJY kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnaxiamNfdCIr5o

[@robnaugle4149]

Crude remark: the feminists would call Athena the first "pick-me", no?

[@untimelyreflections]

They should think about the fact that she knows where Zeus’ keys to the lightning bolt are kept before uttering such words.

[@hammerdureason8926]

ahh, so this is a love story, a political love story ... the courtship, & marriage of zeus ( civic life ) & the furies ( instinctual life ) followed by a wedding officiated by athena. finally witness the rebirth of the furies by a retelling of their origin myth in the historical moment - so becomes a political birth. here they rise from the mutilated body of aegemmenon, echoing uranus, & those ancient maternal instincts ( nurture, protect ) bound to a new child, the political body ( athens ). observation -- athena & the furies are "sisters" in that they are women yet motherless -- athena from zeus' mjnd and the furies from uranus' gonads.