WHAT IS LIFE? #3 Philosophers Tim Freke and Ken Wilber in conversation

[@XOXO-mb2vh]

I think its awesome to see Ken Wilber still has all his cognitive faculties. Illness has not affected the information.

[@PordanBJeterson]

Hi Everyone. I really enjoyed helping Tim with this project. I know the audio is a bit erratic. Our recording device was shifting gain unpredictably. I’ve figured out how to avoid this since then. I apologize and hope it’s still an enjoyable discussion.

[@Seanus32]

A fascinating discussion, sir. Many eye-opening moments.

[@hagbardc623]

Sound problem was my fault, I was trying to eliminate the outside noise by turning down who wasn't speaking. I've really enjoyed listening to this again.

[@hagbardc623]

"There is something GOOD!"

[@swhite8381]

This is so far over my head . But here I am living , breathing, feeling , wondering . ♥️

[@kristycika5546]

I thought the same! It's so far over my head but I can't quit listening to their conversation

[@integral9x]

​@@kristycika5546you can check out Ken's course "Evolutionary Dynamics" to learn it all step by step in the most elegant fashion.. i'm doing his course and I am beyond grateful for all the work they put in so that I can learn his wisdom very well

[@geoffbowcher3189]

What a paradox! ….. the more we delve deeper down the rabbit hole of understanding then the magnitude of complexity increases. … and yet as we grow older the yearning for " the good old days" of SIMPLICTY, and gentle rhythms also increases.

[@davidring13]

Hi Tim, I watched this for a second time, and enjoyed even more than the first. I also feel my initial criticism was pretty much wrong, well only a tiny bit once or twice but was so good to see Ken pushed beyond where most interviewers have been able to go. So thanks again. I was so heartened again to return and rest in the mystery of it all. I have often felt as I journey through life the drive to understand and grasp the nature of reality can be a curse, as much as a blessing, and that by accepting that the ground of all being is fundamentally mysterious and will always be beyond reach, enables me to escape from the darker aspects of living. Thank you both.

[@mj4ever001]

Ken Wilber is a beast!

[@VeraGroen-k9e]

wow! two of my favourite philosophers together, what a treat!

[@benjaminworkman]

Very happy to have come across this amazing conversation!

[@Mart-Bro]

Wonderful conversation. A privilege to listen to

[@michaellooney5810]

To see for real that you cant know what this is, is liberation itself, the stuck and fixated part is just the thought that we know what this or anything is. I love the last 15 mins of this and the humility of Ken to practically admit you don't need any of the theories of his or anyone else's to get the to see this. Knowledge by acquaintance, not knowledge by description.

[@roselotusmystic]

BOTH NonDual . . . AcquaintanceDescription 🙏

[@levcimac]

wow. what a conversation. I have watched and listened to Ken many, many times but I don't think I've seen him engaged in a dialogue like this. I enjoyed it and I imagine both Ken and Tim did too.

[@barrysmith1202]

right; purdy dang rare-- not too many people can engage ken at anywhere near his level

[@RodrigoCoinCurvo]

You might also like the discussions Ken has in audios such as the "Kosmic consciousness" or "Integral Spirituality - a deeper cut" programs. In those, Ken sometimes goes into more nuanced and deep philosophical discussions.

[@barrysmith1202]

@@RodrigoCoinCurvo oh, yeah, will be getting around to a wilber marathon, currently hitting T mcKenna youtubes, thx

[@mr-splits-world]

Great conversations Tim. Really enjoying your meetings with everyone!

[@markv2087]

I just started listening to this, but I don't think I've yet seen another video on KZbin that has such a worthy start. What is this? And KW immediately joins and the game is on. Wonderful!

[@Give_Me_The_Night]

Amazing and deeply fascinating conversation! The resonance is incredible , and their pointings are so clear - I love these two so much! 🙂🙏

[@laurisolups6563]

What a surprisingly emotionally uplifting ending to a serious conversation!

[@andrewhurst5511]

Great excitement in this talk, loving the energy

[@integralstanley]

I love the video! It is reassuring to trust that under and between all the horror of life there is also a fundamental goodness/love/bliss/Ananda. 🙂

[@sereneintegral]

2 great blokes

[@SusannaBearfoot1]

Just brilliant! Thanks doesn't say it. 🙏💖

[@roselotusmystic]

MysteryStory ~ BOTH the mystery of Story AND the story of Mystery 🙏

[@MrBudacat]

Great Thinkers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU !

[@michaelsinclair604]

If Tim had actually listened to Ken, rather than interrupting him at every step, he would have got the answer he’s looking for. Ken holds the perspective that Tim has, but in a fuller, more complete framework.

[@whowonthatballgame4298]

Great conversation Tim and Ken. Back in the 90 s wanted Ken and Werner Erhard to have a sit down talk like this. I have valued from both of their work.

[@geoffbowcher3189]

Deep, heavy , thinking , what , how, why, intensity, integral, holistic big wave surfing. Full on, full. Who knows what tomorrow brings.

[@hemant05]

Awesome talk, glad I found this channel.

[@antonyliberopoulos933]

Thank you

[@pemajamyang]

Excellent intellectual discussion with a vast scope on existence and its irreducible mystery

[@williamkoscielniak820]

Wow. RIGHT before Wilber mentioned the Wittgenstein quote about eternity I was thinking of that quote. What a beautiful moment of synchronicity!

[@ApacheMagic]

Thanks - really good.

[@SheikhN-bible-syndrome]

At 1:02:00 mark when he says that if you can lucid dream that's what you will be able to do in the afterlife that's the 1st time I've ever herd someone other then me have that theory. made my day!

[@johnhannon8034]

But where is the evidence that lucid dreaming can occur without a functioning brain?

[@SheikhN-bible-syndrome]

@@johnhannon8034 define the boundaries of what you consider to be "evidence " do you mean evidence in a quantifiable scientific mainstream format? Because not everything can be quantified and because of that mainstream science is very limited which is why they had to make things like "theoretical particles" in order to explain outcomes experiments just because a lot of what they dabble with it it's not quantifiable so they literally have to invent quantifiable "thing" to round out their experiments

[@johnhannon8034]

I’d be open to any form of evidence, whether quantifiable or not.

[@SheikhN-bible-syndrome]

@@johnhannon8034 ok well people that have died temporarily will usually say that they were in heaven or hell and all kinds of variations in between and although they will swear that it was really real I think that it's just the dream state that we go to every night and it's just that they have never lucid dreamed before because all of those accounts sound like lucid dreaming. Also I have shared a dream with someone else that I know and did so during the same night and this was on more then 1 location.

[@SheikhN-bible-syndrome]

Or no feedback is ok I guess

[@geoffbowcher3189]

Two great 2nd tier gurus. Namaste , thanks. Nanu Nanu

[@kiransavidi]

Next time, I request you to be a little more patient and wait for him to pause and then you can question cuz we don't know may be you just stopped a magical gem from Ken. Just a thought.

[@spookman123456]

Who does Ken mention right after 37:14? The nobel prize winner. Thanks for the talk! It's great.

[@TimFreke1]

I think it was Ilya Prigogine

[@Mark-yj4tw]

I wonder what that string thing is on Ken Wilber's finger on his right hand. Is that to remind him of something?

[@waltwilliams8345]

Well, that was fun!

[@gloriaa3652]

After years and years of seeking and wondering, of banging on the doors of eternity and seeking answers in many writings and belief systems it dawned on me that the great mysteries are just that...the Great Mysteries. And well named. Millenia later we still refer to them as the great mysteries because they have baffled us all from the dawn of our awareness. And, for all our wondering, are we really much wiser? Can we be sure of anything we think is an answer? It behooves us to stand in awe of what seems unanswerable.

[@sheidak.2347]

The most important part comes around 1:08:11 - "what is it that's actually aware at this moment?....What's the seer not something that you can see?"

[@thomasvieth6063]

I did enjoy the conversation. However, you both remained rather cloudy about the distinction between infinity and eternity, to which I would like to contribute the following: infinity is to me certainly something that you can count without reaching an end; eternity is not countable, because it is completely outside of either time or space. To me, the entire conversation that developed between the two of you hinges upon that distinction. But alas, this was never undergone.

[@chrisatteridge]

Great topics

[@ly6203]

Neti neti, the mystery of our existence, is blooming in both herbal, yet sweet fragrance of cosmic creativity❇️

[@littlesigh]

A big thumbs up for Ken....

[@donnsmith6482]

Great interview and conversation Tim! A return engagement?

[@StoneShards]

I like what you're saying, Ken. I think you're conceptualization may be enhanced through a consideration: the "first emanation", the initial wave of differentiation, must have been a special situation, not to be repeated. The first emanation met no resistance, so it penetrated to the maximum extent of cosmos instantaneously, and "bounced back", meeting the movement of spirit "downwards"--"resistance", in a word. Some fully differentiated spirit particles are more successful than others in their upstream movements, but all experience a loss of momentum, "speed". The less successful particles are considered to be "trapped in matter", to be "redeemed" by the process of cosmos creation and regeneration. Fully differentiated is fully individuated. Fluid dynamics seems a good analogy to the behavior of spirit particles. Turbulence produces barrier regions having special properties. As the first emanation continues to bounce back, maybe it meets the second emanation on its way down, finally, resulting in a spiritual/material density stepped gradient between Godhead at the center and origin of cosmos and the maximum extent--and density--of cosmos. These are the "planes of existence", so-called...

[@roselotusmystic]

YES . . . AND . . . 😻

[@davidring13]

Fabulous conversation. My only (minor) criticism @Tim is you keep interrupting and disturbing the explanations and answers to your own questions before the answer has been fully developed or given, or maybe that's just me. But I am very much enjoying your series. Thank you very much.

[@TimFreke1]

Yes. I agree. If you watch my other episodes you'll see that they have a 2 way conversational style. But when Ken starts to roll he just rolls and I didn't want this series to be interviews. I went to visit him for a conversation. I guess I didn't make that clear enough to him.

[@davidring13]

@@TimFreke1 I feel guilty now, it really was great I have long been a fan of Ken's work and this is one of the best conversations I've ever seen with him, so maybe your style was the best one, and it was certainly good to see someone talk with him who could keep up and draw the best from his extensive knowledge. I have watched Ian and Rupert also and loved them both. Thanks Tim.

[@SimulationSeries]

You do a great job Tim but yes let their thought stream roll on more often they are reaching the peak of a profound thought

[@Seanus32]

Again, Tim, I recommend Actualized.org :) Very original perspectives for the most part.

[@TimFreke1]

I'll check it out

[@Seanus32]

@@TimFreke1 Forgive the pun but it is 'freaky' (I heard how you pronounce your surname) how Leo, the owner of that website, outlined a view I have had for years. Namely, science as the zoom in and God as that 'and' the ultimate zoom out with all the levels in between. Like yourself, I'm not religious (though I believe in God) but read a lot to gain rounded perspectives. I like the Enabler and Sustainer notions in Islam, for example. However, their idea of God being outside the Creation is absurd IMHO. Judaism is far closer to what I believe with Ein Sof and Tzimtzum. My slogan which I use in many discussions is, 'life is levels'....lead with that and the corollary should be high awareness.

[@donofdivisionstreet]

beautiful

[@sonusmagus1331]

the duality between the form and the formless is a paradigm conceptually divergent ideas which by step outside the poles of opposites can be useful .. a metaphor of this would be the paradigm of weight loss .. when I am concerned with being overweight I can’t solve the problem of being overweight from within paradigm .. as soon as I shift my point of view to a concept that exists outside of the paradigm .. a metaphor of this let’s say health .. by focusing on being healthy the weight issue solves itself

[@XOXO-mb2vh]

That's true.

[@zebo11]

Oh Tim's interruptiveness! Enthusiasm, great. Not letting the other (Ken) even finish, not-so-great! Pull in the reins!

[@kake52]

the sense of being knows no bounds of time.

[@Flowstatepaint]

Wonderful 👁

[@hgracern]

Oooh, joy to listen to gentle voices. Thank you Tim. Xxx

[@deadfdr]

Having difficulty enjoying this one bc Ken appears to be resisting describing his present experience and chooses to default to his third person lecture format. I appreciate your continual effort to get him back to the upper left quadrant. Haha

[@helloitsme7983]

Thank you! Also Mr freke you may want to check out the physicist Tom Campbell and his book My Big TOE

[@anthonyhudson3540]

Great conversation and wonderful insights. However one small criticism. I love a dynamic back and forth debate but was getting a bit frustrated from time to time with Tim's style of interviewing. If you have a guest as illustrious as Ken then please let them finish their point if not their sentence. Many times ken was giving an answer to somthing, I was just getting into what he was saying and tim interrupts with his own point of view. I am sure tim has some very great and intelligent insights into many things but this was supposed to be about Ken's views. However, was still overall very illuminating.

[@TimFreke1]

I know. Apologies. It is because this was definitely not intended to be an interview. All the other episodes in the series are conversations ... lots of back and forth. But Ken started speaking before we even ran the camera and just rolled. So I wanted to try and make it more interactive and personal, but didn't really manage. This series is not about a guest on a show, but capturing an authentic conversation. Check out the episode with Jeff Salzman as a lovely example.

[@anthonyhudson3540]

@@TimFreke1 Hi Tim, thanks for replying and clarifying that. No, it was a really enjoyable and informative video, and I do love to here a dynamic back and forth between two great minds. I just thought maybe you could have given ken a little bit more time on the ball before you came in with your tackles (forgive the football metaphor). However, I learned a great deal and look forward to catching up with the discussion you just reccomend. I am a fan of your work, have read two of your books and am always interested in your ideas. So just take it as some friendly feedback from a fan. Have a good day

[@jeffdocherty]

@@TimFreke1 That's because Ken is not talking with you! The intention and basis of a conversation is an enlightening exchange, but he is talking at you. It's tiresome too much head stuff, is he trying to convince himself or he reaffirm himself, what's the point of his practice if this is the outcome, a tyrrany of ideas. No sign of expansion of awareness, no joy, insight, no beauty to be found here, where's the transformation.

[@zootsoot2006]

Not many people alive today would be able to have a genuine conversation with Wilber. Peterson maybe or Sam Harris.

[@roselotusmystic]

RoseLotus ~ BOTH the immanentTranscendent AND the transcendentImmanent 🙏

[@thediniallahi9780]

I know exactly what it is. It's in there and over here.

[@samrowbotham8914]

I have a couple of Ken's books I will have to give them another go I found them hard going. Are you doing more of these Tim? I would like to see you interview Anthony Peake, Tom Campbell, Bernardo Kastrup, David Berlinski, Scott Berringer, William Lane Craig Stephen Myer etc

[@TimFreke1]

I have unfinalised plans for episodes with Anthony and Bernardo

[@goingtogetugly9657]

Is one of the books you have "A Theory of Everything'? I found that one to be a good overview. The other one is "A Brief History of Everything' which is written like an interview.

[@samrowbotham8914]

@@goingtogetugly9657 Yes "A Theory of Everything'? The other is Boomeritus.

[@hypnotechno]

I would start with One Taste and Grit as they are less theoretical

[@jasonmitchell5219]

The human ego never fails to rationalize 'itself'and it's insignificanct conceit. 'Progress' is always one of its primary go- to manifestations as is it's opposite.

[@artandculture5262]

The progress that is destroying the West? The utopianist lie?

[@johnsmithwick9346]

Thanks for your talks Tim and your presentation in Caesar's Messiah. It's the best stuff out there. The one component missing (IMO) from your (and the speakers you're interviewing) worldview(s), is the need for British descendants to congregate and work as a tribe. I know that's somewhat antithetical to an universalist philosophy lol, but we need to organize in order to assert our group and we need the communalism for family, friend and ethny bonding/growth. I think Rupert Sheldrake still attending the Anglican Church is commendable, but I'd like to see all of you begin petitioning the Monarchy (Supreme Governor of the Church of England) to transform the Church into a British descendant congregation centre where we'll hear the types of information you're discussing. Please. Thank you. All the best. :-)

[@TimFreke1]

I think coming together to appreciate our different identities is a great thing. And the British can be proud of so much. As well as ashamed of so much, like every ethnic group. But now is the time to transcend all of that I feel. Honour it, but go beyond it. That is the call of the future I hear in my heart. Personally I've never identified with my ethnicity, religious background, or nationality. Like Socrates I have always felt a 'citizen of the cosmos'. Socrates called this a cosmopolitan'. Beautiful.

[@nonreductionism]

Ken makes bold unfounded claims about the absolute. I wish he was more in touch with Mystery.

[@vasey6635]

Ffs Dave, it's the first thing he acknowledges and stresses. "The absolute mystery of our existence is at the core and you can't get rid of it."

[@nonreductionism]

Vasey Again, yeah, he says that but also majorly oversteps his bounds in terms of what is reasonable to claim. Even saying “we can make assumptions based on most people’s interpretations of satori” negates the Wilber Combs Matrix. He is commonly criticized for basically advocating for an eastern version of creationism. It doesn’t matter how many times he says the word mystery if he doesn’t really honor it in his metaphysics, and he doesn’t.

[@jcho710]

David, there's a reason barely anyone watches your videos. The only mystery you're in touch w is your self-delusion.

[@PlotArmorHero]

Boy I wish everybody would do this talk and not fight like little children

[@cjjohnson353]

Wishing reality is different is suffering

[@janiskelley]

I so wanted to be able to engage in this interview, but cripes almighty, could you quit interrupting your guest and let him finish his thought! You can hear the guest growing more annoyed. So unfortunate.

[@roselotusmystic]

AcquaintanceDescription ~ BOTH the acquaintance of Description (~~Ontology) AND the description of Acquaintance (~~Epistemology) NonDual PhiloSophical OntoEpistemoLogy 🙏

[@johnmartin5240]

It’s the old Batman and Robin speak. The Riddler and the penguin chatting , and nobody really understands f___ all.

[@Seanus32]

Neti neti - not this, not that. A useful meditative method.

[@SheikhN-bible-syndrome]

Your hamstrings and glutes are under active you need to focus on stretching and strengthening them as well as strengthening your left side so that your spine will strengthen out and elevate some of that scoliosis

[@anthonyboaden183]

You both sound like two theoretical physicists talking about dark energy/dark matter. Well we think we know where it is , but we don't yet know how it works because we find it hard to observe.

[@cjjohnson353]

That's not what I'm hearing

[@dermotoneill7115]

Freedom of Thought If you lost your memory or the ability to project thought you could just act. But that might be to simple😁

[@Jacob011]

Tim Freke evidently hasn't engaged philosophically with the problem of evil at all. The emotional and intellectual problem of evil are two separate things, of which the second has no real contradictions, because of a perfectly morally good being could have reasons, we can't comprehend (on account of us being spatio-temporarily limited), to allow evil so that greater good can come about.

[@kennethhaughan104]

What about Tom Campbell`s model of consciousness evolution? Would move this conversation forward in a very positive way towards clear understanding of what "life" is all about.

[@deadfdr]

Paradoxes rule

looking into the mystery cost money few can afford.

[@TimFreke1]

i've never had much money peter and i've spent my whole live looking into the mystery. you can look into the mystery right now. it is one of the few things in life that is truly free.

[@jassykaur9129]

individuation is NOT things are differentiating to become individual. these are 2 separate ideas. Jungian.

[@TimFreke1]

That's Jung's definition of the word. But obviously he has adapted it from a general meaning of becoming individual. My concept of 'unividuation' is closer to what Jung calls 'Individuation'.

[@jassykaur9129]

@@TimFreke1 Ahh. Sure.

audio fucked up come on you guys can do better.

[@theempyrean1227]

Google translations to English( I do it for clarification/understanding) are atrocious!

[@logosadvokatene]

Great, but stop interrupting the man! Let him flow. Just a friendly advice.

[@fightington]

Dude isn't really getting the unspoken parts from ken. He also doesn't need to offer his perspective because doesn't have much to add that ken hasn't covered more completely, succinctly and from depth

[@TimFreke1]

I visited for a conversation not an interview my friend. There are plenty of interviews with Ken available. I went to discuss some important issues from a personal perspective. Hence my attempts to stop Ken's amazing flow of thoughts from time to time and seek to engage in a more personal way.

[@jcho710]

Tim, you need to talk less and let Wilber talk. You're trying to get your word in of what you think when the depth of Ken's understanding is just far past where yours is. It's just irritating. When the Buddha comes by, you don't interrupt w your own opinion.

[@TimFreke1]

I felt honoured to meet Ken but felt the conversation didn't work as well as all the others in this series. Even before we started filming Ken was on a flow speaking, which really never ended. This would have been great for an interview I guess, but there are loads of such interviews with Ken and I'm not an interviewer. This series is all about authentic conversation and my real conversation are never like that, so I unsuccessfully attempted to invite Ken into that format with some to and fro. The conversation with Ken's friend Jeff Salzman in this series is a perfect example of what I had hoped for but failed to find with Ken. Jeff is an extraodinary man I feel ... much more like my Buddha I'd say. Check that out. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iYLan6iQh92Lbas

[@jcho710]

@@TimFreke1 Jeff is not on Ken's level. It's problematic if that's something you don't fully see.

[@TimFreke1]

@@jcho710 Without doubt few are on Ken's level intellectually. But that's not everything. There are also other forms of 'intelligence' that we share.

[@TimFreke1]

@@jcho710 Why is that view problematic? I'm intrigued?

[@edwardrussell7168]

Good question.. one logical evidence based explanation is in the book The Human Self and Allah by G.A. Parwez. Read it for another realistic view of this life and its logical continuation to the life in the hereafter. Physical life ends with death.. have we created a new life within us which we can call mine???

[@ericraquedan4418]

M+P=WS

[@roselotusmystic]

InFinite EmptyFullness

[@jeffdocherty]

Grandiose thinking, but no communion, no joy, how can you discuss Life so lifelessly :(

[@Tayebehbajin]

Tim excitement is annoying

[@roselotusmystic]

NonDual RelativeAbsolute

[@roselotusmystic]

NonDual EmptyFull

[@kpswichita]

I'll save you the hour of babble.... read The God Series by Mike Hockney. Everything is answered.

[@sourcetext]

Integral philosopher ..... what a joke. Fashionable insanity.