What Is the Difference between a Keto Diet and Ketogenic Therapy? - With Dr. Bret Scher

[@24carrotgold8]

My oncologist was not supportive. Fortunately I learned how to change my diet (carnivore), measure glucose and ketones daily, fast 3 days before and 2 days after chemo/Keytruda infusions and test and rebuild my blood afterwards. After my initial diagnosis the nurse alerted me he prescribes suicide drugs when approaching death 🤪. They were not happy for me when I RESOLVED ALL metastasized tumors and CT scans confirmed cancer free from stage 3 endometrial cancer. You do not need a team. You need information, testing results, and discipline!

[@cloudcloud490]

24 karat gold, That is encouraging to hear! I just finished seven rounds of chemo carboplatin etc. I am now just taking key Truda I’m doing keto but I’m still not yet in ketosis. I have not fasted yet because my weight is so low. Is there a way that you overcome this?

[@kimberlyf4888]

Exactly. He has to (for liability reasons) state over and over that you need a care team and your doctor on board. While that may be helpful for people and get better outcomes, nothing is stopping anyone from eating in this manner. My 81 year old mom, who has suffered from a lifetime of issues (arthritis, benign tumors, heart disease, lupus) has gone keto/carnivore and is weaning herself off meds and not even telling her doctor. Every time she goes in for a check up he tells her how well she's doing. She's likes him, he's smart and kind - but she's afraid he's too old school and would fire her if he knew and she wants him as her doctor as she nears end of life.

[@kimberlyf4888]

Also, I looked at the handout for your doctor. While it argues the case for ketogenic therapy, it does not tell your doctor how to begin the therapy. A doctor agains keto is not going to read this and have any idea what exactly to do. But, the knowledge is out there if you seek for yourself.

[@sho-na]

@@kimberlyf4888Your mum sounds like she is absolutely wonderful! May she enjoy the best of love, health and happiness.

[@24carrotgold8]

@@cloudcloud490 If you eat lots of sardines it will put you into ketosis quickly. Do not eat any carbs at all or you defeat the purpose of ketosis. If you are in ketosis, you probably won't need the nausea pills or have digestive issues. Your doctor WILL NOT help you. You must measure everything daily. Make sure you have your thyroid tested. Keytruda destroys thyroid function and you will need to see an endocrinologist for medication. Carboplatin is delivered in a glucose solution, so you must be fasted before and after. Do not take dexmethazone pills it raises glucose.

[@mariaberry6874]

Aha ! I have been Keto for 2 yrs Inc carnivore for 6 months. I lost weight and noticed various improvement but my mental health kept relapsing. I never achieved ketones over 0.5. When I fasted (sardine fast) my Ketones rose. By day 3 I was over 3.0. Insomnia, anxiety, panic disorder, depression and despair are all gone. I measure and maintain my level over 1.0. For me higher fat, shorter eating windows and not too much protein, is what works so far. I do miss some food BUT never as much as I enjoy waking without despair. I so hope this lasts 💕🙏

[@metabolicmind]

Congratulations on your success!

[@Fröhlich1985]

🎉❤😊

[@beckydampier8805]

What does a day of eating look like for you?

[@MiguelGarcia-dk8vo]

Yes how many calories of fat do you have

[@HK-cp8tm]

Hello! Thanks for sharing. Can you confirm you switched to carnivore the last 6 months and then did a sardine fast? Did you do it just once off or regularly now?

[@mds1325]

Dr. Bret a wonderful job of sorting things out. So glad to see this new initiative and excited to follow how you Georgia and the gang progress. Best of luck. Mel

[@theskyehiker]

Good information however, I do wonder how folks who need a team like this would realistically find one. I did go on the website and the closest professional to me is 400 miles away. I don’t say this as a criticism but just a statement of fact. Fortunately I’m not in a situation where this is needed but if I were, I’d be SOL. Dr Georgia Ede is doing a great service in trying to increase the volume of professionals that could be available to folks but so much more is needed.

[@metabolicmind]

Yes, unfortunately, there is still a shortage of clinicians trained in metabolic treatments for mental illness. We know how hard this can make the prospect of adopting these therapies seem. For those who do not have a metabolic psychiatry professional nearby, one option is to work with your own care team. Here is a link to a handout you can take to them: www.metabolicmind.org/families-and-peers#drtalk

[@axelkolle9994]

@@metabolicmind Thank you for that link. I do have to concur with OP though. SOOL for most of us if we need support

[@Rhombohedral]

Here in The Netherlands there zero health care professionals guiding ketogenic therapy. ergo I do a keto diet without those that name themselves healthcare professionals. When I mention it, the disgust is clearly visible just before i dump them from not using their "services"

[@thomashandyside5084]

Same in Canada. Want to get a dirty look or see your doctor’s eyes roll? Tell them that you eat a low carb diet. It’s actually pitiful.

[@tomthetavernman]

Same in England my friends. No curiosity in the NHS doctors.

[@Rhombohedral]

@@tomthetavernman here they get pissed and angry.. specially you wanting control over the therapy..I had one telling me I cant handle that...🕳

[@jeanpaultongeren125]

Rhombherdral do you do it for Schizophrenia

[@jeanpaultongeren125]

alvast bedankt

[@MichaelBLive]

This is one of my favorite topics! Thank you for explaining this. Michael

[@armaperez78]

Loving your channel, thank you!

[@karenohanlon4183]

Here in the UK there is no keto teams. The health care is broken. If you have the keto sticks and they show you are in ketosis then that's about as close as you will get to knowing . If you lose weight and feel better that too is an indication. I am afraid one has to rely on oneself here and listen to our bodies and mind.

[@thewrightoknow]

I totally agree with you. My Dr in the UK, encouraged me not to keto or carnivore diet. I have lost 6 stone and no more meds for type 2 diabetes. Our system is totally beyond repair. We need to take care of our selves!

[@janejewell3892]

Keto sticks? Are you referring to urine tests? They are very unreliable as they also respond to dehydration and alcohol! Get a blood tester like ketomojo to test your BHB levels in your blood. That's is the most accurate way to test your level of ketosis.

[@lucyburr5516]

Dr. David Unwin advocates a low fat diet. He practices at Norwood NHS Surgery in Southport near Liverpool.

[@shieh.4743]

This is soooo important because my body does not want to stay in ketosis (or so it seems). I must fast for a period of time to stay in ketosis - anything more than 55-60grams of protein AND/OR more than 10grams of total carbs throws me out of ketosis. It is very frustrating, but there it is.

[@dianechilds1857]

Yes. Me too. Test your fasting insulin. Mine is high but it is coming down slowly. As it does, my ketones and blood glucose get better and mood improves. I also had to stop all carbs for several months. Now eat one cup of low carb veggies. Very slow progress but worth it

[@JoyfulArtist]

​@@dianechilds1857thanks. That's encouraging. I'm working my way to carnivore as an elimination diet. Tired if fighting with carbs

[@stuartmalin661]

@@JoyfulArtist Just do the Carnivore. Once I got past the carb craving, it is easy - and not boring if you vary your meats. Also - be sure to consume the animal fats! I use the "leftover" fat from making bacon to cook my eggs - they sort of boil/fry. Delicious, and keeps me in high ketosis!

[@sarcasticcat4982]

​@@stuartmalin661can you use Paleo turkey bacon? I don't eat pork.

[@stuartmalin661]

@@sarcasticcat4982 I don’t know. My belief and experience is it is the fat that your body needs to be in ketosis, not the protein. Turkey is simply too lean (in my opinion - I have tried). Perhaps enjoy your turkey bacon with a goodly sized slab of butter!

[@generalbystander1631]

Team? Whats that? Have you been to a doctor in the last 15 years? the team concept is no where to be found anywhere in medicine for regular, everyday people.except maybe in an operating suite. That aside, love your channel. Keep up the important work.

[@kathynewkirk683]

I now visit my doctor for acute issues only…

[@natalieschturyn4294]

Hello Dr. Scher! My son developed seizures after a bout of flu followed by encephalitis when he was 9 years old. He has been on many and multiple meds over the past 23 years since then. His seizures at least over the last 10 years have included what I call "psychological" ones, during which he is unresponsive yet can and does walk about and handle things in bizarre ways. It lasts up to 15-20 minutes, then he often concludes with a generalized seizure. He has also had post-ictal psychosis several times. The coexistence of psychotic and seizure symptoms underline to me the similar etiology in the mind. His doctors have very little to say about this, focussing virtually all their time on titrating meds. The ketogenic diet was always presented as a possibility, but always reluctantly and as a last resort, plus my son was never willing to start it. He has finally begun it and it's his second week. I have great hopes for this and am deeply grateful for your work!

[@CarnivoreToday]

Great video Dr. Scher! Very concise and informative...love it!

[@1timbarrett]

I love it that you do not waste time denigrating ANYONE! 👍 👏 😘

[@karenajaeger]

You make it sound like we all have these health teams to work with! Ive been depressed for 25 years, neither my doctor or my therapists have ever suggested i look into ketogenic therapy, or change my diet, which I thought I was working on with being vegetarian, and keeping away from junk food…. Does everyone have a nutritionist… ? You obviously know a lot! But you dont actually share much info on what to do, except go to the website… but thanks for that!

[@metabolicmind]

Here are a few directories that may help you find a practitioner. www.diagnosisdiet.com/directory thesmhp.org/directory/ www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/doctors nutrition-network.org/find-a-practitioner/ You can also try websites like DietDoctor.com that go over the basics of the diet and lifestyle. Hope that helps!

[@lexamdelac28]

How long should one give ketogenic therapies a try for improving their mental health symptoms? If it doesn't work in that time frame, is it worth trying the carnivore diet (still technically keto they say but stricter?)

[@pabeader1941]

Do it for life.

[@jan_ellison_baszucki]

Georgia Ede addresses this question in her content and her book. Generally, metabolic psychiatrists suggest 3-4 months, and then Dr. Ede would then suggest trying carnivore, I believe.

[@lexamdelac28]

Thank you so much, Jan! I love seeing you comment. And I will have to check out her book - I just placed a hold at my local library@@jan_ellison_baszucki

[@juliesaadwellness]

Carnivore is stricter in that it limits more of the foods you can eat, but from a mental health perspective I wouldn’t call it stricter because there’s no limit to protein, so sometimes people go carnivore and are eating a lot of lean protein and that throws them out of ketosis. Carnivore can help with things like eczema and autoimmune conditions and is a good elimination diet to help uncover food sensitivities, but to be used as a therapy for mental health it works best when macros are carefully calculated and we measure our ketones. Many people also follow something called “ketovore.” It’s carnivore with just a few plant products thrown in, usually 10g of carbs a day max, so there are many different ways to play with the diet but for mental health it’s a good idea to check ketone levels as we go along to make sure we’re getting a therapeutic level.

[@lexamdelac28]

@@juliesaadwellness thanks for your input!! I'm still doing keto. I tried carnivore for a few meals but I really can't stand focusing on protein/meat all day.

[@Croatlik]

Excellent explanation.

[@Kogirius]

Is everyone in the US legally obliged to say stuff like "consult with your doctor" or something?

[@TheBeana71]

The problem with trying ketogenic therapy with a healthcare provider is that precious few people have access to such providers. The vast majority are at best ignorant of, and at worst actively hostile to, keto. I know you have to say that for liability purposes, and in a perfect world it would be true. But at the moment, it's just infuriating.

[@1timbarrett]

I recently consulted a GP/PCP in my own country who was totally unfamiliar with Keto but intrigued. Her interest picked up when she twigged that it might (might) be the answer to her own accumulating belly fat…! 😮 😂😢

[@jan_ellison_baszucki]

I hear you. We'll think about another video to acknowledge this very real frustration and maybe come up with a few ideas for work-arounds.

[@CarnivoreScott]

Thank you for posting this Dr. Scher. New follower coming over from your presentation at #CoSci.

[@metabolicmind]

Welcome! We hope you enjoyed the #CoSci presentation.

[@cassieoz1702]

I've generally seen the term Therapeutic Ketogenic Diet used. The diagnosisdiet/directory is pretty useless outside North America (despite implying otherwise). The few professionals offered are all covering the easy stuff, low hanging fruit and NOT the stricter therapeutic stuff.

[@metabolicmind]

We understand your frustration. As this is an emerging field, it will take time to have more trained clinicians globally. As a nonprofit organization, we are doing our best to create helpful resources and push for systemic change.

[@cassieoz1702]

@metabolicmind I'm a retired MD with stage 4 cancer and I've been keto for 5 years, so i understand the basics, but need 'keto's big brother'. All I really need is access to one of the (very few) dieticians who understands approaches used in epilepsy to give me hints on how to apply it. There are heaps of dieticians using keto for T2D but nothing else.

[@corydory67]

​@@cassieoz1702 Contact the Charlie Foundation for tips on the protocol for epilepsy. If you don't have a blood ketone meter and a glucose monitor, get those. Generally you want to calculate your gki, which is your glucose ketone index. To do this you divide your glucose by 18 (if you are using us measurements mg/dl), then divide by your blood ketone number. You want your gki less than 2, although less than 1 is even better. This can be difficult to maintain and may take some intermittent fasting to get into. Also you may need to increase your fat and limit your protein. The Charlie Foundation recommends 4 grams of fat to 1 gram of carbs and protein combined for epilepsy. You may not have to be that strict, so measure to see how your body reacts! Good luck!

[@testforall555]

Thank you very much. If I may ask, does sweeteners interfere with developing ketosis or do I need to still get that sugary feeling and cannot or not able at all to stay away from it. Does that mean not fully will get this continuous ketsis state? (Mohamed)

[@metabolicmind]

Good question. It may depend on the sweetener. Sucralose can "kick" some people out of ketosis. In general, allulose, erythritol and monk fruit tend to be better. But that's the beauty of measuring ketones as each person can determine for themselves how they respond. Hope that helps!

[@testforall555]

@@metabolicmind Thank you very much. My big sole problem is that sugary taste. What an addiction! Never ever able to stay away from it.

[@metabolicmind]

That's a very important point! For some, non-caloric sweeteners can serve the role of satisfying their sweet tooth. For others, it can feed an addiction that is very difficult to stop. It's so important to know which camp you are in!

[@nanakrisdoggie7375]

So what is the exact diet for keto therapy( besides the need to do all the blood work with a professional help) ?

[@metabolicmind]

There is no one exact diet. It is essentially any diet that is less than 30g per day of carbs, adequate protein around 1.2g/kg, and the rest fat. Here is a sample that could work for many people www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto/diet-plan

[@anamariafernandezpabon822]

Great info! Is Keto good for Cerebellum Atrophy? Thanks!

[@bEverCurious]

Look up Ken D Berry MD and Shawn Baker - both doctors who have channels here, who also specialise in keto/carnivore diets. If anyone will know, they will.

[@anamariafernandezpabon822]

@@bEverCurious Thanks!

[@TimMarston-l8r]

@@anamariafernandezpabon822 Also checkout Dr Anthony Chaffee

[@HK-cp8tm]

Hello! What type of ketogenic therapy is most advised? As in you mentioned the process could happen on the Mediterranean or carnivore diet? I want to present this to my current gp. Thanks!

[@metabolicmind]

We believe the best ketogenic diet is one that the person enjoys and will follow. It's not clear that a carnivore, vegetarian, or omnivore keto diet has any more or less effect on improving mental health.

[@Roberto-cg2gr]

Hope there will be research on GKI LEVEL and cure for metabolic diseases such as Atherosclerosis, CKD, Stroke, Foot Ulcers, etc

[@Man-u-flex]

So if it’s for mental health ketones have to be at least 1.0 ketone levels?

[@metabolicmind]

That may vary from person to person. Dr Campbell did a study that suggested above 2 may be more beneficial. Dr. Palmer has stated his goal is usually around 1.5. And others have noted benefits even below 1.0. So the key is to work with a professional to help decide the target for each individual, and be willing to adjust as needed based on personal experience.

[@janarleth9811]

If I brought information from KZbin to an MD, especially a psychiatrist, they would have NO regard for it. Maybe someone should start a channel on how to heal themselves since we can't get anything but the usual crappy care with the usual crappy medications in the US. Urging me to work with a doctor on new therapies is ignoring how humiliating it is to be dismissed by an MD. Do you see the disconnect? Maybe you need to educate MDs before taking this to KZbin? Regardless, I can design my own ketogenic without a bleeping MD to watch over me! I can type too!

[@metabolicmind]

We understand your frustration completely. We acknowledge the lack of qualified clinicians to help with ketogenic therapy. We are working toward systemic change and have been supporting clinician training- something we will continue and scale as much as possible. In the meantime, there is a directory where you can see clinicians who are trained. We hope to see this list continue to grow exponentially! www.diagnosisdiet.com/directory

[@Kobe29261]

Even this well meaning docor is terrified of the medical system and it IS a system; no doubt it has its heroes but unfortuantnely most of its agents are pricesly that agents of a corrupt at worst and unreliable at best ecosystem. Godspeed to you!

[@9879SigmundS]

I do keto (actually carnivore) and fast for better mental and physical health. Now, what's the difference again?

[@9879SigmundS]

@@shaynaformity1384 that is an attempt at distinction without a difference. The only question is ketone levels and lower glucose. Mine are wide ticsl to "ketogenic therapy.". So again, what's the difference?

[@user-AGLaki]

Pardon me, but u did not say clearly that with ketogenic therapy one must get into nutritional ketosis and stay in nutritional ketosis and that blood glucose and blood ketones have to be measured every day with monitors to show that one is staying in nutritional ketosis. And then after a while, say 90 days, one sees what the health outcomes might be.

[@dencollie]

What did u do to test/ rebuild blood after?

[@metabolicmind]

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question. What do you mean by "rebuild blood after?"

[@mockturtle1402]

Dr Bret, did you pick that thumbnail? Pucker up!

[@jangordon6540]

Sadly there are only a few medical professionals who support this and fewer who are knowledgeable enough to manage it.

[@spacecookie10]

Is there something i can show my psychiatrierst to give him a touch with this kind of research/treatment?

[@metabolicmind]

You can start with this video that covers the recently published trial out of Stanford. We hope that helps! kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGe3fXppjpyLhsU

[@But1non]

"Under supervision of a health professional" you sound like Michael Greger😂

[@pabeader1941]

Quick answer. More fat for theropy.

[@Govinda_005]

Frustrating that almost 0 doctors know about this

[@cjturner2036]

Why do I hear a faint "ka-ching" in the background?

[@stu9776]

Good to see (some) medical professionals finally recognizing what they have been missing regarding keto, but I find it somewhat disingenuous to change some words (keto therapy vs. keto diet, etc.) and then pretend you are offering a new solution.

[@metabolicmind]

Sorry you feel that way. And sorry if our point didn't come across well enough in the video. Our main point is that anyone can do a ketogenic diet and see how it can help them. But when using a keto diet as part of ketogenic therapy, the level of ketones matters, monitoring symptoms and medications matters, and adjusting other lifestyle interventions to affect ketone levels matters. None of these are necessary when simply following a ketogenic diet. We feel it's essential for people to recognize that if they want to treat a medical condition with ketosis, it's more than just following a diet. We hope that perspective helps.

[@veniqe]

​@@metabolicmind"Sorry you feel that way." is not helpful. It's not an apology.

[@carlharmeling512]

Right, right, right, under no circumstances do we want to put your medical professional out of business that would not be good for… his wellbeing. Personal physicians are responsible for some much malpractice it makes your toes curl. Don’t do anything without your doctor is lousy advice intended to protect the presenter from legal liability.

[@christopherdooley5774]

This guy pretends there are medical professionals who will support Keto. That's BS. Most of us are on our own.

[@metabolicmind]

Here are a few links that may help find a keto healthcare professional. We hope they help! www.dietdoctor.com/new-and-improved-find-a-doctor-page www.diagnosisdiet.com/directory thesmhp.org/directory/

[@kathynewkirk683]

There are some healthcare professionals that are supportive of ketogenic lifestyle as more and more studies are being done.

[@bplusAgain]

It takes big money to work with trained professionals if you can find one, so the most helpful thing would be getting this approved by insurance. Then I predict finding one will be W A Y Easier! ;-))

[@jan_ellison_baszucki]

Yes, we agree!

[@zebscircle]

❤❤❤

[@ShaneTrammel]

You left our cancer. You named a lot of things Keto is helpful for but you left out Cancer.

[@craigdixon2062]

Ketogenic therapy probably involves a doctor prescribing a diet that actually induces ketosis. A keto diet is used by most as an excuse to eat an excess of fatty junk foods.

[@joeberrouard3743]

Most people do keto just so they can eat fatty junk food? That’s quite a statement.

[@axelkolle9994]

Knowing the way cravings sneak up on you I have to concur.

[@anankedos]

Ketogenic diet means you can’t eat junk food, because all junk food is loaded with carbs. I don’t eat anything on keto that comes out of a bag. It is worth giving up carbs if you want to treat arthritis and other inflammatory disorders.

[@axelkolle9994]

Informative, but sadly I have to say then I come to the conclusion that ketogenic therapy has no place even in civilised Africa. The depth of expertise is not there. Added in the bias for the old ways of doing things... (we are always 10 years behind or more.) Again, though, thank you for clearing up a lot of misconceptions.