What Killed The Xbox? - This Week In Retro 159

[@officialbackintheday]

Great episode. Many thanks for the shoutout for my video on Knightmare!

[@KesMonkey]

Hello to Duncan, Dave, and Neil! I'd love to see Duncan appear as a guest in an episode.

[@Mevunky]

We demand a Duncan! We demand a Duncan! Whooo Duncan is the best!

[@luraphraxis777]

Definitely, would be great to have Duncan on!

[@catriona_drummond]

There is no floating Atari logo because Atari always lacked the magic. There, I did my part in the war.

[@ScandalUK]

Having the third slot taken up by the occasional guest is the perfect solution! Great show as always

[@HappyCodingZX]

Speaking about Knightmare reminds me of the inspired and hilarious Limmy sketches 'Adventure Call'. Smiling just thinking about 'Kill Jester'

[@TimmyJoe633]

I've been on honeymoon so catching up with a few missed episodes of this week in retro, but I have to say, I loved Knightmare back in the day, remember watching it from when it first came out in the 80's through to the final series in the 90's, my favorite part was the wall monsters.

[@ThisWeekinRetro]

Congratulations Tim

[@GenerationPixel]

Hello Duncan, the most unsung hero of Retro 🤘

[@trailersic]

I remember watching Knightmare every single week, I would never miss an episode and very much remember seeing the first team to beat the dungeon. But then I was 8 when it first started so right in the crosshairs. Met Treygard a few ears ago and he's a lovely chap.

[@stephencandy2554]

Sony's RM-833 remote control for the KV-250 models (late 1990's large screen CRT) did indeed have a reversible remote control. One side very few buttons (the "I fixed it Grandma" side) and the other the full set of controls for setup etc. Another great show, glad I found you via the long way round of RMC The Cave and Arcade Archive videos... Keep up the great work.

[@snoeg]

Over here we didn't have a fancy TV show like Knightmare, but there was a RPG-like radio show. Callers could participate one at a time to advance the (very linear) plot until they would step into traps or get defeated in some other gnarly way, accompanied by a sound effect of a bloodcurdling scream. The next caller would then continue from the point right before the previous one made his or her last bad decision...

[@mrfoameruk]

I have to work on a Saturday at home so have this on in the background.

[@HarsharanSingh-cj7ng]

Knightmare was a firm favourite of mine, not so much at the end of its run (I was a bit older by then and often out and about when it was on). Great memories! "Enter, stranger!"

[@banjobear1666]

My weekend is complete - thanks chaps for another great chat !

[@stevep7213]

🎉 Another fantastic edition of TWiR! Remember the name “Duncan Styles”. That guy is going places!

[@prb366]

My Dad still has some old VHS tapes containing backups I made of tapes from the video rental shop. Hi Duncan! And the other two. :-)

[@lintfordpickle]

Another top episode. I like to use Dave's background as inspiration for games I'd forgotten about while browsing Ebay, which is great over the months/years

[@asifimgunnatellya]

Hello Duncan! I cant remember anything like what you have described with Knightmare in Australia

[@darthlovejoy3811]

Another greatly edited episode!! well dun duncan

[@bazodee2]

I usually had a 19" or 21” tv in my bedroom. It was either the old tv from the living room or some used junk that made really loud high pitch noise.

[@sys7em.]

M$ admitted a few years back, the majority of RROD consoles weren’t because of a bga failure, but a design flaw in the chip itself. The X02056 Xenon gpu had low TG underfill causing a failure internally. Only a chip replacement with a revised chip will mend such a console. This story is still being reported incorrectly.

[@nickwallette6201]

Ah yes -- I had posted a similar comment, but couldn't remember the specific mechanism of failure. Posting here to bump this.

[@magnum333]

Thank you, Duncan.

[@kantaramarcus]

I enjoyed the show. And hello to Duncan.

[@vvwvvwvv]

DIY music scenes are making tapes like mad right now. They are 1/4th the cost of pressing vinyl so it’s great for first/minor releases! (Think punk, techno, goth, metal, hardcore etc)

[@williamfalconer4289]

Knightmare was a goto program after school. The intro to the program was pretty good. I remember a short lived clone that was on BSB galaxy channel (before the Sky BSB merger).

[@richardhunter1654]

Hello Duncan. Keep up the great work.

[@tayzzed]

Great show guys. I used to watch Knightnare bak in the day.

[@AppliedCryogenics]

The thumbnail image reminds me of the last time I had too many buffalo wings.

[@TerribleFire]

Absolutely loved Knightmare

[@bobrogers4019]

I used to love audio cassette tapes and also had a walkman. You could tape lot of bits off the radio. I read that modern pop singers release their albums on cassette as it is fashionable with the youngsters.

[@nickwallette6201]

I recently watched a video where someone did further research into the RRoD, and similar YLoD of PS3 gen1, and similar failures on video cards of the era (like the handful of Radeon 9700 Pro / 9800 Pro / FireGL cards I've tried to get working in retro systems ... RIP.) The takeaway is that the bonding of layers in the CPU/GPU/APU package are subject to failure. Reballing the chip might "help", but probably only works for a while, and probably more from coincidental thermal cycling that repositions the wafer, substrate, and bonds between layers. It could fail again instantly, or work forever. It's completely up to chance. I don't remember who posted the video, else I would credit them here.

[@finnmacool9935]

The problem was in the materials used in GPU and not its attachment to the mainboard. It was a design error due to quick evolution and demand for more advanced processing graphics at the time and rushing products to market without adequate testing. Inside the GPU there is a connection made using ball grid array soldering, stabilising these joints is a substance called underfill. What was happening was that the underfill was becoming elastic and expand at over 70 Celsius when the cut off Temperature for the system was 85. The expanding underfill would break the ball joints. This design fault also caused the yellow light of death in the PS3 and also NVidia GeForce 7000/8000 graphics card series failures at the time. The whole thing is being called "Bumpgate"

[@darrenkellers2114]

Good work guys.

[@trevorphilips2090]

I think the future is still local as in gaming graphics we are firmly on diminishing returns*, while ARM based, low power consumption handhelds are exploding every year in value, getting cheaper and more powerful all the time. Before we know it, these will run contemporary games too. On the other hand, streaming latency, fluctuations in network speed will remain an issue. *My favorite example is AC Origins, that is 9 years old yet still looks contemporary. Also, in the past major advance in graphics like ray tracing never really had to be 'force selled' (no, physx and hairworks do not qualify as counter argument IMHO) and be shown side-by-side to see the difference. I love this tech, but generational leaps used to blow out of our socks...

[@wimwiddershins]

Through my own experience, I associate Microsoft with annoying (often buggy) OS updates, crap features pushed on users, half assed products and multiple RRODs. The OG Xbox was a rare example of them getting it right for the most part. It's hard to have any confidence in the brand. I try to avoid them. Gah, I hope their AI doesn't get into anything that has to be reliable. 😵‍💫

[@nickwallette6201]

I was one of those saying, "What are these clowns doing in the console gaming space? Just their latest pet project destined to end in buyouts of competitors, and then abandonment when they get bored." Afterall, they solved the console problem the same way they solved EVERYthing back then: Build a bespoke low-profile PC, and put a stripped-down Windows on it. But more than frustration with short attention spans, I "credit" Microsoft with lots of industry annoyances like: * Not owning software you bought. (IIRC, they were key in pushing the "licensing" model.) * Online activation. Anyone remember the stink this caused when XP launched? Anyone left complaining about it now? * Tying together critical security updates, functional improvements, and completely arbitrary changes to the user interface -- with no way to decouple them. (If you want security patches, you use Metro now! Hooray!) * Industry alliances, by force. (If you want to sell PCs with Windows, you had better not sell PCs with anything else.)

[@belstar1128]

yea i think that when companies get too big most of their new stuff will be bad. microsoft was already huge in 2001 but the original xbox was good but you noticed many of their 2000s products like windows phone failing. and they some how allowed internet explorer to go downhill so much they managed to get literally everyone to switch to something else. i think google is becoming like this too. they were great in the 2000s when microsoft was already like this but now their newer products are also not good just like how microsoft was great in the 80s

[@KrisGraney]

Thank you Duncan !

[@tahustvedt]

My Amiga is a Zombie. A 500+ with so much corrosion that I had to resort to necromancy to revive it. 1/3 of the board was damaged.

[@wepif]

hey Duncan, when are you going to be a guest?

[@Rocky1138]

Power supply problem on original Xbox. I got a replacement cable from them which includes a circuit breaker in it. It only just failed last year.

[@vicenary]

I don't remember Knightmare from back when I were a lad in the UK; what years was it on?

[@TheRestartPoint]

AFIR, back in the '80s they used blue screens, and I remember we always used to call it "Blue screened" back then, none of this fancy "chroma-key" stuff. And on the suject of parents and wi-fi, my 87 year old dad inadvertantly aquired wifi when TalkTalk sent him an ADSL router un-prompted, which has subsequently become useful to me when I vist him and for the Amazon Echo I have set up for him, but has he got any idea what wifi or broadband are? No chance! And I am way beyond the fruitless task of trying to explain what they are to him now haha.

[@richneptune]

The simple/complex remote idea, I'm sure that in the early 90's there was a slew of remotes that had all the complex functions behind a little plastic door you had to open. But I can't for the life of me remember what devices they were 😂

[@kenknight5983]

Pointless stuff to fill out the comments section: I recently found a VCD of I Still Know What You Did Last Summer. Guests I'd like to see- Jan Beta, Arctic Retro, Canadian Retro Things. Red rings of death? You can get a cream for that

[@alancullen9439]

Great work Duncan!

[@PicksterTG]

The 'red ring' problem as layed out here isnt quite as layed here. Its more complicated than lead free solder balls and while heat cycles did exacerbate the problem. If the chips didnt have the defect they did, they heat the chips were allowed to get to wasnt enough to harm them. So it wasnt over heating, but the heat cycles did cause the chips to fail. The same problem/defect in the 360 agraohics chip is what caused the Yellow light on the PS3 and the Nvidia GPUs of the day to also fail.

[@Lbf5677]

In Scotland you'd be like 'this Saturday morning show is for Keds!!'

[@lasskinn474]

knightmare probably worked due to the limitations, making it something else than just playing a videogame or a roleplay mansion, vr, ar or otherwise

[@tdub8719]

Completely off topic. Ultima games (start the count Duncan) are on a big sale on GOG. Which ones should I try? Dave...DAVE!!

[@Electricpaws]

Bluey is the gem of modern kids 📺. I wish my kids were a little younger so we’d been watching this on repeat instead of peppa pig

[@lupustg]

hello to Duncan

[@Ash_18037]

Great podcast. Microsoft deserve all the criticism they get. Dave does seem almost a bit naive and unaware of their well documented history of anti-competition, anti-consumer practices that have been the main reason for the negative opinion of many towards them. The majority of their software (consumer oriented at least) has grown worse (usability, reliability, removal of functionality), not better, every year, Windows, Outlook, Visual Studio, Office 365, Teams in particular. Bring critical of Microsoft does not make someone "a hater", they simply have well justified criticisms from many years of poor experiences with limited alternatives, again thanks to Microsoft killing many of those alternatives. (Linux is still frustratingly incomplete, Apple has a whole other world of problems).

[@Reprogrammed_By_SEGA]

Agreed, "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" (EEE), also known as "embrace, extend, and exterminate", is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found was used internally by Microsoft to describe its strategy for entering product categories involving widely used standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences in order to strongly disadvantage its competitors." They have been trying this tactic in the console space for a decade now.

[@simonstapletondotcom]

Ha! I lost TWO Xbox360s due to the Red-Ring-of-Death! I never bought another Xbox again! Until I bought another one

[@DAVIDGREGORYKERR]

If they would sell a dongle-key with the game disc that will not play without the dongle-key so you need both to play the game like the SEGA CHIHIRO.

[@robrankin5792]

Skyrim killed my original xbox360 elite and the second hand replacement xbox360 slim model. Had to buy it for PS4 to complete the main story but I was still wary it would pop another console!

[@NeonEUC]

Splintercell blew me away with the graphics on the xbox. Totally awesome machine. Still got one in my retro cupboard... Need to recap it one day... But deep down I'm like "nah......"

[@lasskinn474]

it's on gog for pc. you could emulate the xbox look by putting it in 480p I suppose. it was quite popular on pc. a sort of a graphics card seller even.

[@atomnetton]

I've got to defend modern kids TV. Or a small amount of it. Shows like Stephen Universe, Gravity Falls and Adventure Time started as something I'd put on for the kids and turned into something I'd watch with them and didn't want to miss an episode. We still fall out now when I remind the kids that they sneakily watched the final episode of Gravity Falls without me. So its not all bad. Theres just so much of it and the SnR is crazy high. Knightmare was rubbish and Microsoft software is too. Their hardware can be surprisingly good especially as I made a decent second income repairing 360s for a while.

[@belstar1128]

i am not sure what the new stuff is like but a lot of people were hating on shows from the 2000s and late 90s for a long time but had no good arguments for why they were bad .apart from them coming out after they were adults or teens. the big problem is that a lot of kids now watch sketchy KZbin videos instead of cartoons .

[@melvoid01]

I could never get the game (Knightmare) to work and even now the version I have got on my mini 500 shows the title screen and does nowt else, I am cursed (or blessed)never to play it.

[@DAVIDGREGORYKERR]

BUNGI was Microsoft's own Game studio until SONY purchased it as well as the company that did the Racing game.

[@chriswalsh3149]

TWIR talking about the future of XBOX?!?!? I was pleasantly surprised to hear you guys talk about the latest news on that one! Hello Duncan! I love your sexy cockney accent!

[@chriswalsh3149]

Also, I believe the PS5 and Xbox series consoles are sold at a loss...

[@DaveRepairs]

Get @alex on- he’s a knightmare - oh please that jingle what an out run failure

[@cconcannon5145]

I am engaging in the comments. See how engaged I am algorithm!

[@jj_and_the_jaysjays6316]

Great!!

[@fourthdirective]

after the red ring of death I bought a PS3 😂 I would buy the later model Xbox 360 just to play Skyrim with the original graphics 👍

[@TheHimble]

Hi Duncan. Nice hair.

[@thecpcattic1395]

This week in comments

[@gunnerhoward3134]

Hello Duncan. I'll shut up now.

[@retrosim4197]

At the time of me posting this comment there were 1,571 view and only 64 comments. Hello Duncan.

[@lee5111]

I think Steam has cornered hardcore gaming, that platform is bigger than Sony & Xbox combined which is why Sony & Xbox are porting their games over. but I don't think xbox will get their app on the playstation, they may have to be content with just publishing playstation & nintendo ports. & apple & android apps

[@michaelacooper]

Hello

[@billramsay7351]

Each to their own I guess, but I thought knightmare was utter rubbish.

[@ritchwaghorn6541]

I hate subscription gaming.. but alas its the ( near) future.. thats why I spend my time with retro hardware and am colleting as many physical games as possible :)

[@JohnH5528]

Next week, please end the show by just walking off screen.

[@dataterminal]

1:01:55 We had a VHS player that hid the majority of the buttons with a flip cover. I mean, the flip cover was broken off it's hinges, but we still had it taped on.

[@retroheadstuff8554]

Amiga Rulez!

[@ctrlaltrees]

Duncan is by far the most handsome and charming member of the TWiR team

[@Wiscotac]

Maybe, but possibly you are correct. 🤔

[@HappyCodingZX]

I think I need to call Dave out on there being no connection between hardware and software manufacturers. Nintendo led the way on this with their licensing. You literally couldn't make an NES game without giving them a cut, unless you used a bypass cartridge which they strongly attempted to block.

[@ChrisShadowens]

Hello, Duncan! Thanks for all you do behind the scenes! In the US in the 80s we had Starcade, a gameshow where contestants competed for high-scores on a number of games, answered game trivia, and the grand prize was often an actual arcade game. I greatly wanted to be on the show but knew I'd never have the chance since I lived too far away to appear on the show. Later, in the 90s, Nickelodeon had a number of things that I think were closer to your Knightmare. I was too old by that point (plus I didn't have cable TV) so I didn't watch those. And now I'll shut up.

[@splytdos]

Neil's predictions were correct! Except it's already here. Cloud gaming is part of XBox Game Pass [Ultimate] and has been for a little while now (at least in the US). I believe Samsung has a model of TV with the Xbox app built in. You just need a bluetooth controller (of course, the official XBOX controller is recommended). I played an XBOX game on my Quest 2 this morning before listening to the show via the XBOX app. It was a bit too laggy at times, but the headset may have been updating other apps while I was playing. I've enjoyed your show since the beginning, but I was surprised you didn't know about this. ^-^

[@Reprogrammed_By_SEGA]

Just for the record no Xbox console has been profitable for Microsoft, When the 360 started to become profitable they lost the profits due to the massive RROD replacement scheme. OG Xbox, X1, XSX were all sold and continue to be sold at a loss with continued declining sales and no overall profit. That is part of their motivation to leave the console market. They have always finished 3rd every generation too.

[@techkev140]

I just read the title on the thumbnail clicked on video, then... KZbin asked me a question. Without thinking, i thought it asking what was responsible for the Xbox ring of death. Well now... apparently it's Maltesers, Terry Chocolate Orange and a few other assorted chocolates.

[@TheUAoB]

It's not just me who is really triggered by the wifibroadband marketing nonsense then?

[@meagrebones]

Thanks for another great show guys, especially good work Duncan. Why are you carrying the other two?

[@Endzs768]

ad free versions? but you're the one ad spot that I don't skip right through.

[@GuillaumeLevasseur]

Duncan's voice at the end is soothing.

[@VincentCornelissens]

Traction! Engagement! 😊

[@magnum333]

How old are Neil and Dave?

[@Cr0mpy]

Hello to Duncan 🙂

[@stevieyoung81]

Hello Duncan.

[@hymanmj]

I'm engaging with a comment. Which is always gunna be positive. Oh, and helllo Duncan ..... :)

[@cassiel1970]

I thought Mr Noseybonk looked terrifying! He always struck me as some bizzare supernatural version of the child snatcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

[@cassiel1970]

I thought Mr Noseybonk looked terrifying! He always struck me as some bizzare supernatural version of the child snatcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

[@kpfaulkner]

Australia here... can't say I ever came across anything like Knightmare on Saturday morning cartoon/TV time. We had plenty of other dodgy games... but nothing quite like that :)

[@Wiscotac]

The subscription economy is already at saturation. IMO. That doesn't mean there aren't any more potential subscribers out there, for any consumer consumption platform, but I think the subscription model has a built in braking system regarding growth. There is only so much growth to be had in today's subscription economy, we've reached the future of diminishing returns, IMO. Agitating the economy everywhere is the loss of ownership. The subscription economy future is running with the assumption that there is some great horde of wannabee subscribers, for any kind of economic consumption. Hmmm, don't think so.

[@GarryGri]

So we are all going back to dumb terminals, except this time they will have flashy graphics and sound... Yay! It would be interesting to see what type of desktop we would have now if OS2 hadn't been killed off, as it actually was better than the windows of the time. But email is part of the internet, the WWWeb is also part of the internet... but not all of the internet.

[@EvanBThompson]

Great episode. Used to watch Nightmare but really can't remember ever deciding to stop watching it. I guess just drifted away from it as got older.

[@Koaldan86]

French TV had an official licenced Donkey Kong show, it was the stuff of nightmare in restrospect (pun intended)

[@firstsurname9893]

LadBible may not be a great source for stories as the "Power On" Xbox documentary was released on KZbin two years ago.

[@RandallHayter]

Maybe there was something like Knightmare, but I must be too old to have been in the demographic to have noticed it. Glad you guys really do get on!

[@tejp5101]

I was just at that age where computers and music were more interesting than TV. My main recollections of Knightmare were the slow interactions between the helmeted contestant and his team and that no-one got very far. Who wants to watch a show where the vast majority of teams fail?

[@mitchyk]

I had 7 Xbox 360 replacements and only paid for one of them. Man those were the dark times! lol

[@mitduschzentrale]

Sony did TV remotes with all buttons on one side and a simplified layout on the other side.

[@phutbwah]

Clippy!! Man, that takes me back. Little bast***...