What Makes a Good Level Up System?

[@DesignDoc]

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[@mikec.c.9535]

You seem to have forgot xp system like Shinning force exa that is somehow clever since it's capped by area level, it's a good idea overall but not pushed far enough, it reduce farming/grinding and avoid abuses while staying fair, it reward early exploration so you may choose to cheese the game.

[@mbh9566]

@Design Doc - I completely agree about Lost Odyssey, it’s definitely doesn’t get its due recognition and praise. It’s my personal favorite generation seven JRPG.

[@rpgcraftsman520]

Final Fantasy 2. The Japanese one, not the American one that was actually 4. A lot of people hate FF2J, but personally, I think those people are dumbasses who can't see that it needed polish, not complete throwing away. And yes, that frustrated response even extends to ProJared, the Final Fantasy King Himself.

[@Barquevious_Jackson]

The line of progression following clouds hair is the best thumbnail gag ever.

[@justsomeoneelse5942]

@@mightypurplelicious3209 lmao

[@bimgus5808]

@@mightypurplelicious3209 ha Edit: ha

[@RailfoxStudios]

Much like a super saiyan, Cloud’s strength can be measured by his hair.

[@tppcrpg6311]

"Players will optimize the fun out of the game" You are damn right.

[@maxiwarhammer]

Leterally me on minecraft, i only need to afk and i got everything, so not fun anymore :(

[@QuintaFeira12]

Then developers should have pre-made challenges more often, letting players see what they're missing out on. YOU HEAR THAT GAMEFREAK? GIVE US THE BATTLE FACTORY BACK, YOU LAZY CURS.

[@cjhedrick6418]

@@shinaikouka FF14 implemented flying in an interesting way. In the first expansion, you had to earn the ability to fly on a map by exploring and story progression, while the original story areas didn't have flying until just a few months ago. That's a story-based reward for beating the final boss before the first expansion. So you still get the story experience, and a means to expedite growth in other classes/jobs as a further reward.

[@cjhedrick6418]

@Quetip24 Well, yes, but most developers don't create their games with the mindset of "let's spend years designing enemies, scenery and music, just so people can go through the whole game in a single afternoon." And when they do, it's usually a dedicated mode like boss rush.

[@MegaOmarPena]

I like to prioritize the fun in a game, however those kind of bonuses for specific activities make me feel obliged to do them, because after all, being weaker than I should or less strong than I could is not fun.

[@AgentNos]

I love how the Monster Hunter series works with progression. It's got the story stuff where you slowly fight bigger and bigger monsters but you use their stuff to make more powerful equipment to become more powerful yourself. Not to mention how your own skill as a player increases as you go on, making it feel as though you're really mastering the monsters

[@conorneligan7694]

As someone who tried to get into the series pre-World tho... it's tricky for newcomers imo

[@mr.robotexe1004]

I agree, you as a player grow

[@klauserji]

@Jovino Margathe lmao. My muscle memory screw me up using CB for a while, because of the new "sliding slash" in mhw.

[@saincx0m9]

as some people i know say , the monster is your teacher not just a threat (nah i made that up) but hey at some point you get stuck at a monster , and when you do you gotta learn something new , just like khezu in mhfu teaching you not to fight close to walls or else...

[@pinguludd6586]

and here i am sitting with beeg sword in Rise

[@aton667]

I always think back to The World Ends With You, where the quality of loot you get from enemies are proportional to how *low* your level is. A slider lets you control where your level currently is from the ones you added, and the game gets challenging even when your level is on par for where you're at in the story, so the level system becomes an built-in difficulty meter that rewards you for mastering encounters enough to not need the stat bonuses.

[@kindasomeviews]

It sounds like the Cheat Shop in Disgaea 5 but virtually better with the stat bonuses

[@r4bbitdragon]

Twewy also juggled a number of level up systems besides the actual character level, between leveling pins and the slower stat bonuses you got from meals over time. Definitely made for an interesting mix.

[@danielevans7439]

Kingdom Hearts Re:Coded gave you multiple difficulty sliders that effected loot. You could modify game difficulty, Max HP, and (I think) enemy damage. I think it’s such a neat and simple way to reward self-imposed challenge.

[@Arathunter]

Also changing the difficulty affects the drops from noises, playing on a harder difficulty will net you more exp. and also better pins while easier difficulty will give less exp. and not so worthy pins (mostly being money ones)

[@monhi64]

That actually sounds super interesting I’ve never seen a game do that. It sounds like you could eff yourself though fairly easily

[@infamousXsniper055]

Something missing from this discussion is being over-leveled or under-leveled. The amount the player scales with levels determines how much enemies scale in power. If this amount is too great, individual levels will make too big of a difference and the player will regularly be over-leveled or under-leveled. Just look at Pokemon. The stat gains, new moves, and evolutions from leveling up can cause fights to go from difficult to trivial in just a few levels. On the other hand, Dark Souls has each level give a very small bonus on top of having those bonuses get smaller over time. This makes it so that enemies can also have a slow progression in power. Being under-leveled or over-leveled only makes a small difference in dark souls so difficulty can be consistent. If you go to a late game area under-leveled, you'll have extra challenge but it's possible to beat the area. If you go to a lower level area, enemies still provide a challenge if you get careless. Reducing how much levels increase the power of the player also allows for games with leveling up to be open ended. Dark Souls once again is a good example of how small amounts of scaling in levels is helpful. Areas can be done out of order and it hardly ever feels like you're under or over-leveled. However, in a game like Pokemon, they usually can't be open-ended without extra systems to adjust levels. Pokemon Gold and Silver tried to be open ended; however, the levels of many areas ended up being way too low. All the possible areas the player could go when the game opened up were set to a level they can handle at that time. However, once the player has completed one of the areas they could go to, they become too high in level for the others. Sadly, if the area's levels are increased, then it'll become hard for the player to actually tackle the areas out of order since they won't be able to handle higher level areas. It's not impossible for games with leveling up systems to be open-ended even if levels cause higher increases in power. A good example of an open ended game with levels that give a larger amount of power is Monster Sanctuary. It's a monster taming RPG similar to Pokemon that's going to release later this year. It has level scaling similar to Pokemon except each monster has its own skill tree. Additionally, all fights in the game scale based off of how much of the world you have explored. This allows for the game to be a completely open ended metroidvania. As long as you don't skip fights in the game, you won't be under-leveled and all fights will keep up with you in difficulty unless you specifically go out of your way to grind. I highly recommend checking it out.

[@BloodyAltima]

On the other hand, low-impact leveling systems, and especially Dark Souls, take most of the actual punch, and thus fun, out of leveling up in the first place. In the TTRPG's video gaming gets leveling from, leveling up is exciting! How will I decide to add to my character? Will I continue to level in Fighter or will I start grabbing Wizard levels now? What new abilities will I pick up to grant myself radical new options? And then in Pokemon, like you mentioned, you have the question of what new flashy move your digital friend will pickup, will they evolve into a stronger friend, etc. It's swingy, sure, but its also fun and exciting. Pokemon's other woes with level scaling are a fundamentally different problem, and mostly come down to Pokemon being baby's first JRPG, but at least leveling up feels good. Meanwhile, in Souls, leveling up gets me incrementally closer to using an incrementally better weapon/spell, and that's the best case scenario. In the worst case, it gets me an imperceptible amount of higher Stamina, Carrying Capacity, HP, or worst, Resistances. Leveling up in Souls is never exciting. At best it's, "Well, now my arbitrary restrictions against using this weapon have been lifted." Incremental growth is just not sexy. It works in Souls principally because Souls isn't actually an RPG, it just uses RPG mechanics to give the death mechanics weight. Death needs to have a weight behind it for the tone the game is going for to work, and so they chose the game's EXP/currency, something gamers are inherently more attached to than their waifus. At the same time, if leveling up is a Big Deal, a particularly bad Soul loss would be too punishing, so the levels are kept incremental. T he RPG mechanics are thus stapled on backwards, which again, does work for what Souls is going for, but is not necessarily an example to follow for everyone (much though it has become a trend many are currently following).

[@rompevuevitos222]

This is why i've been starting valuing horizontal progression so much There's little to no reason to make vertical progression other than giving the feel of being stronger, but is that worth sacrificing the mechanics? The idea is that when your overall stats barely change, but you gain more options Robocraft did this fairly well, as you level up you gain access to weapons that are slower and deal more damage, these are harder to use but have a bit more DPS (at the cost of higher energy consumption) So a lvl 1 player has the same capacity for combat as a lvl 100 player, but the lvl 100 player has more options for making vehicles

[@Kmn483]

I love that you used pokemon & dark souls as examples here, because not only does it show the (in)competence of the devs, but also who these styles are targeting. Dark souls is a very skill-heavy game that REQUIRES you to know the ins and outs, because you can't just overlevel for easy win. Pokémon on the other hand can just be beaten with a level 90 starter or legendary, which often overshadows the skill depth that the system has.

[@dmas7749]

i do prefer static difficulty over scaling, but basing it off how much you explored makes far more sense than the rest of the world levelling with you. either way, it means you can't go to Area C before Area B, get curb-stombed, buy the best weapon you can, die some more, maybe grind a bit and then overcome it through skill and persistence and i like low scaling myself personally; level 2 shouldn't literally double my HP just because it's twice as high as level 1 (Legend of Dragoon *literally* did that)

[@mjc0961]

"Pokemon Gold and Silver tried to be open ended; however, the levels of many areas ended up being way too low. All the possible areas the player could go when the game opened up were set to a level they can handle at that time. However, once the player has completed one of the areas they could go to, they become too high in level for the others. Sadly, if the area's levels are increased, then it'll become hard for the player to actually tackle the areas out of order since they won't be able to handle higher level areas." The solution to that would be to make the remaining areas increase in level when you get a badge from one of the other areas. I don't know if that would have been possible in that game, though. That's how a modern game should handle it though. Also, Pokemon sucks at the level balance in general. Played Red and Brilliant Diamond this year... Both times, even though I ran from wild encounters and only fought trainers, I was easily overleveled for the entire second half of the game. And then you hit the wall of the Elite Four + Champion and suddenly you're underleveled, and need to grind. What's the intended solution here, game? I could have fought every random encounter too, but then I'd be even more overleveled for most of the game. Or I could fight less trainers so I stay more in line with the levels of the trainers I do fight, but then I'm even more underleveled for the end game, and going back to all the trainers I skipped won't give me an amount of XP that's worth it anymore. And of course the Elite Four and Champion themselves are another example of Pokemon doing it wrong. The Champion is always 10-15 levels higher than the first of the E4, which makes a HUGE difference in Pokemon. So what happens is the player has to grind to a high enough level for the Champion, and now the rest of the Elite Four is too easy. Granted, I could go off all day about how I think Pokemon is doing practically everything wrong. They just throw in difficulty spikes with stupid high levels, and make so much stuff come down to RNG. Playing/replaying these as I've gotten older has really exposed so many flaws in these games. I always knew these games were for children, but I guess I never really noticed how heavily they were targeting only that audience until now. You pretty much have to ignore the campaign entirely (or power through it knowing it's not good) so you can get to competitive battling if you want any enjoyment out of this game as an adult.

[@fb1877]

I think the Mario and Luigi rpg games like partners in time, and bowser’s inside story do a good job with leveling up.

[@rainpooper7088]

Yeah, the remakes don’t though. I was so completely overleveled in the BIS remake, I had Rainbow Rank before the last bosses when I never had it in the original (I know you get it earlier in the remakes but still) despite me actually avoiding enemies instead of killing them all like in the original. The rank-based skill tree in that game is also way too OP and you just can’t turn these game-breaking abilities off. Plus they also removed the challenge mode, so that game can’t even be challenging if you want it to. It was honestly better when it was just a simple leveling up system with a little stat bonus you can pick.

[@garfreeek]

@@rainpooper7088 but couldn't that be our muscle memory as well? I mean you can dodge basically all damage in that game, if you've learned all the tricks. I could probably beat cackletta with 10 hp at this point for instance.

[@loto7197]

Superstar Saga GBA version, Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG are the real gems of turn based mario

[@aionicthunder]

So long as you’re not Emile

[@garfreeek]

@@aionicthunder I haven't seen that LP yet, was it such a disaster?! xD

[@matiasrivas1692]

What has to be my least favorite leveling system is the one where XP earnings per character is determined by how many/what actions they made during battle. It usually ends up in a situation where a couple of party members get stronger and carry the team, even worse if kills are too important a factor meaning support characters and healers may get disproportionately less XP than the attackers even though that heal they did was key too them surviving another round.

[@robonerd125]

FFX did an annoying version of this, if a character didn't do damage in a fight, they wouldn't get AP. Yuna could personally protect/revive everyone in the party 10 times over, but if she didn't summon an Aeon (which clears the rest of the party off the board) or boop someone on the nose with her stick (hilarious, but ineffective), she would just earn nothing (sometimes it wouldn't count so i have no idea what the specifics are) even worse is the fact that leveling up and getting stats are practically your ONLY way of getting stronger, since weapons/equipment only give multiplicative buffs, if your base stats aren't high, they won't help you. and on TOP of that there's one character you get halfway through the game, who starts at (the equivalent of) LEVEL ONE, meaning they are completely useless in general combat (aside from their character gimmick, which for some reason is the single most busted skill in the game) Also the Dedicated offense mage is weaker than the Healer if you just build the healer for offensive magic, which is hilarious (though that's more the fault of magic increasing both healing and damage, and Yuna's sphere grid start has more magic nodes on the way to offensive magic than Lulu)

[@rompevuevitos222]

Fell Seal uses that system pretty effectively (believe me when i say i'm not a fan of it, but they did it really well) Basically healing and buffs/debuffs receives a nice xp bonus, while kills also give bonuses and any double action-type ability gets diminishing returns At the end, all classes level up at the same rate as long as they do something each turn(which should always be the case since you equip 2 classes at once, giving you extra tools for when you don't have any abilities on your main class to use)

[@jeromealday614]

@@robonerd125 can we also talk about how drawn out the summoning animation is. At first it was cool but when grinding? Hell no. Godbless for the fast forward button on the remastered 😇

[@danielevans7439]

@@robonerd125 I think you’re mistaken. Anyone that does any action that takes a turn gets AP, even healing or guarding.

[@Walamonga1313]

@@robonerd125 That's untrue, you need to perform any action with a character to get AP. It's definitely annoying to be forced to do so or else they don't get anything, but you can easily swap people in and guard (which has much faster recovery on the timeline)

[@kevingriffith6011]

Also worth noting about Lost Odyssey, it's probably the best RPG at encouraging you to use *every character*. The linking system with your immortals is part of it, but each map has a "level cap" as well. Once you hit the level cap of a specific map, your experience gains are *significantly* reduced, meaning that it's better to change party members out once they hit that level rather than letting all that EXP go to waste on characters who are having their progression stunted.

[@nybxcrotona]

It also helps that every character is unique enough to justify using. You'd normally want to just use your immortals, especially since they are also able to revive themselves after a few turns if things go south, but the mortal characters you do have are great with support, and even has one that is the only non-mage ranged attacker. That is pretty cool to me.

[@seacliff217]

It also helps to encourage strategy in boss fights by preventing the ability to grind over the challenge. If the player gets stuck but has reached the cap, they need to learn the games mechanics better rather than brute forcing their way through.

[@isidoro19david65]

@@seacliff217 This right here

[@dillonmalbrue4179]

I also feel like Xenoblade Chronicles did a good job with this

[@layerp]

Yeah, but it's the worst RPG at being available to pick up and play Why is it exclusive to X360!?!?!? aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[@thebiggestgarlic1194]

The level progression systems that I hate, especially in RPGs, are the ones where the enemies level up with you. It completely defeats the purpose.

[@abuhasan5380]

Tactic ogre 😀

[@legendarytat8278]

Well, it forces you to pick good skills and synergies, but there are better ways to do this.

[@matiasrivas1692]

I think it CAN work if the player get's new abilities, moves or whatever at a constant rate through those level ups or in parallel with them. Sure enemies level up with you but your obtaining of new moves makes them easier to kill regardless.

[@LongRest]

@@legendarytat8278 I don't think that's a good trade of. The hall point of the leveling system is to get stronger and not weaker. When you upgrade not very usefull skill in RPG with a static enemy levels you are not getting better, but at least you are not getting weaker at a cost of your time and exp.

[@legendarytat8278]

@@LongRest That's what I said. There are better ways to do this.

[@Mother_boards]

I really feel like you should've talked about the downsides of point allocation, specifically as it pertains to ARPGs like Diablo and Path of Exile, where a beginner player can essentially make their character unusable by investing in the "wrong" stats/skills. With such systems, I think it should be standard that resetting your allocated points should be doable at any time, or at least fairly easy to do. This would encourage experimentation, while avoiding discouraging players who might end up with a sub-par build after spending many hours on a character.

[@rompevuevitos222]

I think this is about making characters not dependant on the skill points and making the progression less steep and more horizontal (power level stays the same, but you still unlock more stuff, so you can still tackle more powerful enemies at a disadvantage of lacking the tools intended for it)

[@KarhsXII]

I think it's worth considering that freely allowing reallocation can make the decision-making less interesting, as it removes the stakes in it, and can encourage players to just slap points into one stat until they feel a deficiency in some other area. Leaving decisions at least somewhat immutable encourages players to think ahead, and plan a cohesive character from the start. Of course, not everyone wants to be constantly planning ahead, and so both approaches can be reasonable depending on developer intent. As far as misallocating points, I think in some ways that's more a problem with the stat system being used, rather than the allocation. Ideally, either the game should make it very clear what stats are worth investing in for a given class/build, or it should strive to ensure that every stat is worth developing in some way.

[@TheSquareOnes]

I had a really bad experience with this in Valdis Story. The specifics are fuzzy now but basically the different "main" stats all give boosts to secondary stats as well and the Luck stat was consistently showing the most total gains each level so I just kept dumping points into that. Unfortunately this apparently left me with an exceptionally low base attack during the final boss, which had a regeneration mechanic that made it unrealistic for me to ever actually kill it (a more experienced player with that build probably could do it, but as you said this type of thing punishes beginners). It was bad enough that it was actually easier for me to just start a whole new save file with a pure strength build to just rush back through the entire game again, since there is a very low level cap that had already been hit and I don't think I had found the NPC which allows respecs at that point. TL;DR: If you let players pick piles of numbers, expect new players to pick the bigger pile of numbers and balance all the required content around that pile as a minimum.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

@@KarhsXII No, not at all. In almost every game where I planned from the start... it doesn't work at all. I've had to reset or ended up with a weak character. Unless you know what is actually good/bad to use in game you have no way to know. ...then when I know how the game works? It is a complete joke and I'm OP decimating everything. But hey, I can play again for 30 hours and change 1 stat on my original character for 1 level and suddenly they are good. "Stakes" of being unable to do much of anything are not good.

[@mjc0961]

@@KarhsXII "I think it's worth considering that freely allowing reallocation can make the decision-making less interesting, as it removes the stakes in it, and can encourage players to just slap points into one stat until they feel a deficiency in some other area. Leaving decisions at least somewhat immutable encourages players to think ahead, and plan a cohesive character from the start." That's true in theory, but in reality what you get is people quitting the game when they realize they've allocated points incorrectly and can't continue the game. Remember, you can't think ahead your first time playing the game. You literally don't know what works and what doesn't to be able to think ahead until you've played it. You're basically asking the player to be psychic. That's no good.

[@sunayama4650]

My favorite leveling system is from The World Ends With You. You level up, but you can choose to level down anywhere from 1 to your current level. If you do, your HP drops, but the drop chance for items is multiplied depending on how many levels you reduced. Other stats for combat are determined by food, clothing, and your pins (abilities) so it's still possible to beat those tough enemies at Level 1 and get a rare item.

[@nolanschotanus2769]

There's a game an steam called hylics and its got a really unique progression path where there's no real levels, and dying just sends you to an area where you keep everything you had when you died. The only way you get stronger is exchanging and finding items in the overworld. Its really cool.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

"Players will optimize the fun out of the game" Like every god damned game I see where you can level up money drop rates, or experience gains, or "luck" Quit giving that as a stat. Also false choice trees. Those times where you can choose between upgrades in your stat tree, but instead of adding new options, what they do is just increase multipliers. I want to see "Now your wind spell creates a wind tunnel for a while that makes you move faster in that direction, which is cool and helpful but you might also want to try that ice spell." I don't want to see "Now your wind spell has rocks in it that increase the damage by such a high amount, you're NEVER going to level up your ice spells again."

[@alextrollip7707]

I think overwhelming level ups should be capstones. Or have skilltrees that reset alot. Ac Odyssey had a nice reset which just cost a bit of gold.

[@franciscoherrera7670]

To be fair, the Mario and Luigi games have luck as a Stat (called moustache), but they do something interesting. You can choose a specific Stat to level up over the rest, but picking the same Stat over and over will give Swverely diminishing return, so it encourages you to have a balanced build.

[@Prisoner-gk6lr]

One of the unique things I love about Fire Emblem is that EXP there is a limited, finite resource. Combined with its perma death feature. EXP is also quite risky to distribute, since the underleveld character who need it the most die so easily while the stronger, overleveld characters get diminishing EXP returns.

[@davidbrickey8733]

Yes this! Also, in the one FE game I've played, advancing your character's class to their higher-tier class causes them to count as a much higher level for this purpose--so the longer you wait to do it, the more EXP and higher stats they'll ultimately have. (And if I remember right it also reset their "level" to 1, so waiting longer would also give them a higher level cap)

[@Nyahahameha]

That sounds insanely stressful to me, and makes me glad I never got into the series. ^^; I've heard more recent entries make perma-death opt-in but I still don't think I'd find a strategic relationship simulator that interesting...

[@rompevuevitos222]

Sounds like a pretty redundant system Why let you choose who gets EXP when it's clear that everyone should get equal amounts to be more effective? why do they give you the option to boost specific characters into overdrive and let the others behind, doesn't that encourage not using the other characters? what happens if the character you over leveled so much dies, do you get softlocked because the rest are so under leveled? That system comes with a LOT of problems

[@ngkn2008able]

Ah, FE As a kid, I once played a FE game on Gameboy advance, which has female main character. At the time, I had no idea about the exp management, but I did notice EXP is limited, so I put them all on my big horse guy. I won battle with human army, invaded castle, battled with wizard army. Then. This new stage. My group was on a small island, surrounds by lava. A small group of dragon riders attacked my group. Not a single character in my group can fought with them, healing and magic included. Tried to replayed the stage a few times before quit. The game is hard.

[@rompevuevitos222]

@@ngkn2008able I played a bunch, they aren't hard, they just have poor design choices If the game lets you softlock that easily, there's a problem right there

[@turkeytalker]

Final Fantasy X's sphere grid was a brilliant customizable leveling system.

[@DesignDoc]

The Expert grid more so than the original.

[@knightshousegames]

I mean, ehh. Compared to something like the Materia system though, it feels lazy. It's basically just an overglorified skill tree. Once you start to fill it out with all the characters beyond their own set path, the characters start to feel homogeneous, and the distinctions between each character that made the first part of the game fun cease to be, and it just devolves into spamming Quick Hit every turn. I think X was on the right track in terms of the CTB system, and the series really should have stuck with that, but it's definitely not my favorite ability system compared to some of the others in the series. It didn't feel like you needed to adjust anything per battle, like setting up different Materia combinations or equipment combos for late game battles.

[@theflashgordon193]

@@knightshousegames I mean it's only true on the post game (I'm agree with you the engame is grindy as fuck and less strategic sadly). ff7 character feel homogeneous from the start (even if the materia system is fun).

[@knightshousegames]

@@theflashgordon193 I just like the endless possibilities of the Materia system, you can make completely crazy stuff happen if you understand to rules, like you can just counter attack with like 7 Omnislashes every time you get hit if you know what you're doing. The homogeneity of VII is relative though, every character has access to all of the actions, but only a limited number of them at a time because of materia slots. It's less about the actions and more about how you spread them out across the party and in what combinations. You can build and re-build your characters for every battle if you want. In the game I'm working on, I'm developing a system that tries to accomplish the best of both, the feeling of customization per encounter, as well as the sense of permanent growth, without that sense of homogeneity. It's a tough act to balance, but it's an interesting challenge.

[@theflashgordon193]

@@knightshousegames I understand you (even if I never fully exploited the materia system) but ff7 is honestly too easy you never really need to exploited well the materia system and I'm not that much fan of the design of the post game boss. I hoped the game you developed will have in mind the player that seek challenged. I'm curious or you working in a big studio and can you tell me the name of the game ?

[@achievedchair17]

I always really like low number rpgs like bug fables, where early-area enemies can still be deadly if you aren’t prepared.

[@JoJo-xp6wr]

Ah yes That intro jingle again! So many lovely memories!

[@Tohlemiach]

FINALLY someone talks about the broken design of FFXV's exp caching!!! I was so frustrated for the whole game because I loved the atmosphere and experience of camping, but I always felt like I was losing exp by not using at least the 2x hotel. I missed out on basically every camping side story and didn't actually know they were a thing until I was almost finished the game. Truly terrible design from the ground up.

[@DarknessIsTheTruth]

Well, the nixperience accessory fixes that a bit. It stops you from spending your exp at campsites or at the end of chapters.

[@Tohlemiach]

Deeth Irteen where do you get that?

[@cussundriakneal9904]

Yeah, which is why i only stayed at the hotels if only there weren't any campsites around. I knew i was missing out on exp, but i'm not playing the game for leveling reasons; i was there for the characters.

[@redumulis2448]

@@Tohlemiach The PC version of the game comes with free dlc that adds it and some other items.

[@x2rmav]

and seriously, levels don't add as much weight as gear and AP, and by the end game, exp is not even a thing anymore of how easy it is to get. But thats the magic of rpgs: play then as you like and are having fun.

[@azuarc]

Nice video, but very surface level. I would argue it spends very little time talking about what makes a leveling system GOOD, and spends the majority of the video simply defining the terms. While there's nothing wrong with that, it is a bit misleading, and it's something I've noticed has become a general trend with Design Doc videos. In an effort to speak to the broadest design elements, there's a distinct lack of depth. Paper Mario's design failed because it decoupled the leveling from the game progression. Okay. But the entire rest of the video was just designed to highlight examples of what games have done -- not necessarily what they have done well. Is FF9's system of leveling up your inventory good or bad? Is a point allocation system better when it's simple and direct like Castle Crashers' or when you have a massive set of choices like Path of Exile? When you aren't playing a traditional RPG, how much do you want to commit your game to RPG elements and why? Which of the examples in your video have a great feel and which feel clunky or simply serviceable? Is it better to give the player LOTS of levels and/or points so that the game is consistently incremental, or give them only a few very concrete moments where they can upgrade their character, like in Mass Effect 2? These are all points that could have given this video some depth. As it is, we're really just watching a big checklist.

[@shanerpressley]

I notice this about Design Docs as well. I wish there was a bit of theorycrafting or brainstorming on how to build these systems with some blueprint graphics on screen or something

[@dmas7749]

i do feel like this is deliberately left up to the viewer's own interpretation but valid criticism nontheless

[@maxyuan1314]

That’s why I like Game makers tool kit better

[@Har0x]

100% agree. Cool info on the different types of level up systems but I got to the end of the video and my only question is, "So what actually makes a good level up system?"

[@dmas7749]

@@Har0x: i think it's one that makes a difference by the end of the game but not one that makes it so that a gap of "just a couple of levels" is debilitating...KH is a good example of this and older Ys games are bad ones imo

[@thorn_lekoh]

Mobile RPGs also have their own spin on level up : since you usually collect dozens of characters that all start at level 1, fighting doesn't give you xp directly, but xp items that you can spend on whatever character you want. That way you can clear content with your strongest ones and use the rewards to get the new ones up to speed. Alas, it also enables the developers to get grindy with it, since the content you have to do to get xp and the content that progresses the story are usually separate.

[@gonzosimaginaryfriend8013]

Another Eden is a good example of this.

[@brunorafaelalvespascoa2240]

But sometimes (especially in gacha-ish ganes) if you onky join a few years after the release you will get an humungous amount of chraracters and so many exp items that you can level your party to the max brfore the first boss (in a final fantasy I got almost a hundred characters in my first hour and the ability to max level about 30 of them, which would lead to me utterly destroying the firstfive bosses, taking the fun out ofthe game)

[@dblczx6819]

@@gonzosimaginaryfriend8013 Yes, someone else knows about this gem, even if it is on mobile. Thank you, sir.

[@nybxcrotona]

Final Fantasy Record Keeper is interesting; Fighting gives you xp, but you can also get special xp-up items to boost your levelling. However, acquiring a character's particular item boosted their stats, and at max level, you could still go with them more into battle to get ability points that you can use to specialize your character's improvements. I think they've done well with late-game levelling.

[@belldrop7365]

It doesn't enable it, it's built around it.

[@AlphUsagi]

What about a "Good Design Bad Design" series about level up systems?

[@ponderingForever]

That thumbnail is glorious.

[@ShinyKyu]

Although the Fire Emblem series as a whole has pretty good level-up systems, I think Three Houses really took it a step further. Every single character has their own growth rate in each stat (the chance for a stat to increase every level-up), and every possible Class has both its own growth rate and base stat modifiers. The mid-tier classes and above also have up to 3 class abilities that will always be equipped so long as a character remains in that class. Combined with the fact that any character can train in any weapon or skill and are not limited to class branches like previous FE games (aside from gender-locked classes), you can truly mold your team to be anything you want them to be. The only thing limiting you is each character’s own max stat caps and how quickly you can train a character’s skills to meet Class requirements (most characters have Strengths and/or Weaknesses in certain weapons/skills that speed up or slow down how quickly they can rank up in those specific weapons/skills). Every character also learns different amounts of different Magics, Abilities, or Combat Arts at different ranks, even when concerning the same Weapon/skill- One character may learn 5 magic spells and another may only learn 2. But to encourage you to stay in your Class for longer instead of immediately jumping into a higher tier Class, you can increase Class experience until you Master the class in order to learn a new ability or Combat Art. Some characters may want a Class Mastery Ability more than others. For example, characters who struggle to deal damage may want to go through the Brigand Class and Master it to get Death Blow, which increases your Attack by 6 if you initiate the battle. With all these systems in place, you’ll hardly every run out of goals. You’ll never get the same playthrough twice, even with the same route, team, Classes, and weapons, and all of the work you put in ranking up weapons/skills and Class Mastery can all carry over into a New Game+. I haven’t even touched upon things like the Professor Rank, Budding Talents, Crests/Hero’s Relics, instructing, instruction drills, how YOU rank up differently than the other characters, etc.

[@CowboyMagician]

Or you can just make everyone a Wyvern Lord

[@eduardorpg64]

I think I really need to try FE: Three Houses.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

ok real talk, FE has great customization and stuff, especially the newer ones, but the whole growth % thing sucks. every time I hear "if character X gets good level ups" it just hurts. what's even the point? the best characters are almost always the ones that don't need to bother with growths anyway.

[@ShinyKyu]

alexander martinez Actually, I prefer having the growth percentages over fixed growth (ie +1 Strength every 3 levels). A lot of characters are great because of their growths, but even they aren’t ALWAYS good. I’ve heard of someone who got stat screwed with Felix several playthroughs in a row. Personally speaking, Bernie has always done way better than Shamir for me, even though the only thing Bernie has over her is a little bit more speed and less strength. Funny thing is, she and Ingrid both have the same base Strength growth, and Ingrid should actually get more Strength growth boosting from her class progression than Bernie. And yet, guess who’s always struggling to kill? A lot of “best” or “top tier” characters are also based on personal preference and how they fit your own play style. When you combine stat growths, class progression, Abilities, and Combat Arts all together, you can get wildly different results, which is why nearly every Three Houses tier ranking you see is different, with only a few characters almost always at the top (the main lords, Lysithea, Felix, and Petra).

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

@@ShinyKyu oh, modern FE has all of those things. the games got better not becaue growth % is a good mechanic, but because with all of those other options growths matter less and less. would it really not be better if instead of some characters randomly being better than others everyone just got the "good" level ups every time? (assuming they brought enemy stats up to par, knowing how easily FE tends to break).

[@cassidymcconnell7536]

For as amazing as Final Fantasy X's level-up system is, I feel many people ignore X-2. Choosing the skills you want to grow on each different dressphere, on top of the normal linear progression gives a similar feeling to FFIX, where you feel a tangible sense of progression nearly every other battle. Choosing which dresspheres to use, the skills they learn, and which characters use them on which garment grid makes X-2 feel incredibly customizable and unique. At the end of my 50+ hours with the game, I genuinely felt like the build that I did for each character was entirely unique, and it's that feeling that makes the game incredibly replayable.

[@zidaryn]

Nice. On a side note, 1000 Words is my favorite song.

[@KittyFair51]

X-2 is as usual underrepresented

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

X2 has customization as long as you're not actually trying to be good at the game. buuut as soon as you try via infinito and the hard tournaments (where you actually HAVE to be good) you'll see the true face of the game. and by that I mean magic users are trash, dark knight and alchemist are OP, and psychic/mascot are cheat codes so those don't count.

[@benedict6962]

The lack of cross-classing is what kills it. A lot of options unlocked from grinding out dresspheres are too niche to be useful or on a job that's not useful enough to actually have out in combat. The infrastructure is there to be something that competes with the Sphere Grid, but in practice is weaker than FFIX in every mechanical way. A lot of the changes in the roguelike spinoff were interesting and could seriously have made X-2 superior to others, but they never wanted to go back and redo things.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

@@benedict6962 I had never thought about it, but it's like ff3's jobs without freelancer 0.o

[@Wafflemage]

FF9 also has a "hidden" level up mechanic for certain abilities that are tied to the character's job. Stealing with Zidane strengthens Thievery, which deals damage based on how many successful steals Zidane has done. Freya has Dragon Crest, which is strengthened by defeating dragons. It's pretty smart stuff.

[@benedict6962]

Really felt that more could be covered for this topic.

[@eduardorpg64]

True, but he did a 17-minute long video with what was covered on this video. Maybe it would be better to make a Part 2 where he talks moreabout leveling up systems.

[@langdonhone5386]

Yeah it took nearly half the video before he actually started talking about leveling systems :/

[@DeronHargrove]

I feel like Gamemaker's Toolkit discussed some of this in his videos. I'm not sure which ones though so I could be wrong

[@crimsoncat8244]

@@DeronHargrove GMTK has a whole video on skill trees alone, if that's what you're thinking of. He talks about traditional leveling systems in that one too iirc but it's been a while. I really like that video because it's more than just black-and-white "skill trees good" or "skill trees bad", he really dissects what makes a good skill tree functional.

[@DeronHargrove]

@@crimsoncat8244 It was a series, wasn't it? But yeah, those are probably the best videos about skill trees I've seen. I know some game design videos can be pretty biased but GMTK does a good job at being objective in those videos

[@rickpgriffin]

I always felt that the "players will optimize the fun out of a game" quote a bit accusatory. Playing optimally is, on its face, one form of fun that's derived from the game. The thing is that when it comes down to when a player needs to make a gameplay-specific choice, usually "play optimally" (maximize rewards, minimize downtime) is the obvious, immediate solution to any given problem. In order to see the content that comes from playing suboptimally, players have to give up the fun of playing optimally. And if playing optimally sucks out other kinds of fun from the game, it creates this weird clash of priorities. "How am I SUPPOSED to play, if not optimally?" Just telling them to have fun and not worry about optimal play smacks of misunderstanding actual player priorities. (especially when it's still possible, or the player might suspect it's possible, to play suboptimally all the way to an irrevocable game over). Yes, there may be other forms of fun to derive from a game, but these needs to be clearly communicated to the player, as well as actually be supported by the gameplay, before they invest themselves in Playing Optimally. The main solutions to this are to make suboptimal play inevitable (no truly optimal strategies), make lots of clearly stated trade-offs to optimization, or simply make the optimized path the most interesting one.

[@DesignDoc]

Yeah, maybe that came out more accusatory than I meant it. In FFXV's case specifically, though, the 'optimal' way to play with the hotel XP bonuses actively excludes seeing some of the extra conversations. Ideally, 'optimal' play shouldn't lead to missing chunks of the story in a story-driven game.

[@bukler3934]

I think optimizing the fun out of the game is essentially the problem of modern pokemon games, to be more precise any amount of optimization (like always choosing a super effective type move) and a sort of balanced team comp takes out all the challenge in the game. Competitive pokemon is so much fun because of all the ways everyone is trying to optimize, in team building, choosing very peculiar moves, switching up expected roles of pokemons etc. I feel that the phrase makes sense as an accusation, but only when the game doesn't account for optimization like in the case of modern pokemon (for the record also the past pokemon games didn't account for optimization but my nostalgia googles are too thick)

[@GameDevYal]

The problem is when the most rewarding (as in, extrinsic rewards like experience points) way to play is also not fun; players usually bite the bullet and do the boring grind if it's more efficient than playing the game normally. A good design should specifically reward the player for playing the game in the most fun way, to encourage them to keep doing it. One way to fix the FF15 issue would've been to give a one-time bonus EXP multiplier the first time you use any given rest spot: now players would be encouraged to seek out every last one of them instead of always going back to the same inn every time, and also be encouraged to do long dangerous expeditions that really challenges their resource management instead of playing it safe by resting every 5 minutes to always be fully stocked on magic, so that they get as much use of those one-time bonuses as possible.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

players will optimize the fun out only if the dev REALLY messes up. like giving unreasonable bonuses in ff15 or making the game insultingly easy like pokemon. or making you reset for decent level ups in old FE.

[@rickpgriffin]

@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz This is actually what I mean; Fire Emblem games keep getting easier because the games were built on perverse incentives that promoted savescumming. It IS literally possible to lose too many units or not get good enough level up bonuses to continue playing your campaign altogether. In FF15, you spend a lot of time going to the same hotels for the bonuses specifically to *save time* you'd otherwise spend on having to grind for the equivalent experience points. Pokemon specifically has lost a lot of interesting gameplay choices EXCEPT in super high-level play, and if you want to play high-level you have to do a bunch of extremely boring stuff in the game to get there, it will not be a natural consequence of playing the game normally.

[@Masarofia]

I loved Xenoblade 2 leveling bonus when overkilling enemies. If you have a difficult time with a boss, just use everything as soon as you can. But if you want that sweet xp, you can set up everything while fighting to make a complete overkill of the guy when he reaches something like 5%, which makes the fights harder but also more interesting as you have to keep track of what you've done before. And then you do the overkill, with all the overdrives and other crazy mechanics you can, stylish cutscenes play while you hammer your enemy into oblivion, and you do enough damage to kill that same guy 5 times over if he was full life, and you get crazy amount of XP. It felt so good, even against end game bosses. ESPECIALLY against them. Every fight would end in a climatic showdown of skill and destruction. It was glorious!

[@loverkkaqours]

I liked the way Hollow Knight let you upgrade your nail. Basically, you have to collect certain amount of geo (from defeating enemies) as well as Pale Ores. This gives the player another reason to keep fighting regular enemies as well as exploring the world looking for Pale Ores.

[@rompevuevitos222]

It also encourages grind, but i guess you do fight said enemies anyway while travelling

[@ozymandias8523]

Isn't that just regular grind?

[@idlegameplayer3756]

@@ozymandias8523in hollow knight theres only 6 pale ores hidden around the map, and they're usually hidden behind hard platforming challenges or bosses, so you take on a challenge to get a damage upgrade

[@currykurr]

Persona 3 tarot cards system where you level up by intereacting with characters has this intrinsic and extrinsic value to me. It helped me get better personas sure, but I mostly did it because it was fun interacting with the different characters and see the evolve over time.

[@ZimVerse]

You mean Social Links?

[@arvc-5224]

I love how you put cloud in the thumbnail, but didn't mention ff7 once in the vid lmao

[@HyperNexus237]

Came here to find this comment, glad I wasn’t the only one. Was expecting at least a mention of 7/7R based on that thumbnail. Still a good video though.

[@rompevuevitos222]

FF 7 has a very basic system, and not that good either, having levels be focused on individual items wasn't the best idea, also, the number inflation is real (what's the need to make you deal triple digits of damage at lvl 1?)

[@SlitheringStevePhilips]

Gotta get those clicks

[@WeskAlber]

God I am loving all the Bug Fables representation. That game is so good

[@chessplayer6632]

Me: *Scrolls through progression bar to see if there’s any games that I’ve played, sees chess* 👁👄👁

[@SenorVilla]

Who's your chess main? I only play rook.

[@mlarowe]

@@SenorVilla I main knight. L7 for life!

[@chessplayer6632]

Juan Pablo Villaseñor Rook main with a pawn secondary

[@Maouww]

Call me vanilla but I'm all about the Queen life

[@mlarowe]

@@Maouww Queen's OP. Especially since Bishop got nerfed

[@NyraScarlet]

Thanks, you reminded me that we still have no modern port for Lost Odyssey again ;_;

[@localSunMan]

Only valid option is to buy a used xbox360 alongside the game. Not even emulators make it happen, since the emu scene for xbox is almost nonexistent.

[@danielhathaway1498]

On the upside my local game exchange sells used copies for five bucks

[@localSunMan]

Update, since I was pissed at the option and did some digging: You can emulate it, but audio in cutscenes can get choppy.

[@expendable6373]

You can play it on Xbox-One and soon on Series X using the retrocompatible system.

[@ChrisSmith-xw5vw]

Even if you do get a copy, you can't get one of the DLC because it was a pre-order only bonus outside Japan. So one of the games most useful skills and one of the 1000 years of dreams stories are locked forever.

[@999Plasma]

If there is one, ONE, thing that i would love to see on your channel, it would be the progression/equipment system in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days. Optimizing the space in this tetris-like, resident evil briefcase-like was my favorite when i was kid. Also, the trinity of Fire Emblem 3H progression through equipment, stats through levels and class unlocking and special abilities through mastering is quite cool.

[@Exarchimedes]

If you're gonna mention that, a shout out to the Lufia 2 remake on DS is not remiss either.

[@dmas7749]

@@Exarchimedes had a lot of fun with 358/2 Days and Lufia DS

[@intelchip_x86]

@@dmas7749 tetris on 358 lol

[@GymCritical]

Also, LOVE what you did with the thumbnail. Clouds Hair being parallel to an arrow going up was genius!

[@yellowtoad6803]

Showing love for CrossCode, I'm currently playing it and it's a great game, so pleasantly surprised you chose to include it in the video! :)

[@skynet0912]

Eternal Sonata has my favorite progression system! You get new equipment once in a while from going through the story and exploring, you have the traditional level ups for stats and new special moves, but my favorite idea is the party level system! At key points of the story, you will level up your party level, which makes you more powerful, but for each level up, it also demands more and more of the player... The game has two main "time" ressources at the start; tactical time and action time. Tactical time is an amount of time you have to think about your moves before starting the action time, and action time is how much time you have to make moves before your turn ends. At first, you have unlimited tactical time, and action time only decreases with actions taken, so at any point you can stop and think about what to do next. However, as partylevel goes up, it rewards you with harmony chains, where you can power up special moves, and even link them together, but in return, the game starts taking away your "time" ressources bit by bit. Where at first you could sit for hours and plan your moves and take breaks between actions at party level 1, party level 2 still let's you plan moves before battle, but as soon as you move for the first time, the action time starts going, and it doesn't pause anymore, but as a reward, you start getting Echoes when you do normal attacks, which powers up your special attacks! The game even switches up some mechanics with the levels, where level 3 let's you use two dark and two light special moves. Level 4 now let's you counterattack enemies and chain special attacks if you save up Echoes into a Harmony Chain. Level 5 increases your movement speed in battle by 50%, and level 6 makes the biggest change of all: It actually changes what your buttons do while in a Harmony chain, so everything but your item and movement buttons can jump around, so that the buttons for normal attacks, special attacks and guarding change while you are in battle. But in return, you build up chains very fast, can chain up to 6 special attacks, and even keep the Echoes you have built up between battles!

[@luigiosmbz]

This is why I personally enjoy Fire Emblem's leveling system. Because each stat has a certain percentage chance to grow, each level up feels very involved, wanting to see which stat improves, sometimes getting nearly every stat up, sometimes getting completely empty levels, and sometimes that one crucial stat that only has a 20% chance to grow, does and it's exciting!

[@jackferring6790]

The only issue i have is the fact the game never tells you which stats have better or worse odds on each character. you can guess based on arc-type or some lore (a character that's chronically unlucky having bad luck growths) but often you have to look on a wiki to see what the data miners have sussed out. i thinks the fire emblem games could be improved if they gave better indicators of what characters have what growths in game. for example, there could be a page in their stats that give a x/5 star rating on their growths. the other issue is when good characters get screwed by constant bad levels but you can argue that's part of the fun/a natural consequence .

[@conorneligan7694]

this is why I hate it tbh

[@nicholasthesilly]

Imagine unironically loving the worst kind of RNG. You should never set foot in a casino.

[@anafu-sankanashi8933]

i think fire emblem, while great in its own right exploits the most risk reward level ups.

[@ryan_uwu]

Same and i think it's really hard to get rng screwed level wise. The games give you so many options to win a chapter, people even do 0% growth challenge runs.

[@Team_Orchid]

Shoutouts to Chrono Cross who took the EXP out of the game and made level ups happen only in boss fights, and *still* managed to make random encounters worth fighting.

[@rayar3234]

If you don't mind to explain (since I've never seen/played Chrono Cross), why are random encounters worth fighting?

[@VerticalEvent]

Chrono Cross had an EXP system (it was just hidden) - it just kept the level cap dynamic, based on story and boss progression. It was pretty easy to hit the cap in most areas, which made fighting normal enemies kinda pointless, especially since I didn't notice any problems in obtaining resources nor money (mostly due to the magic system always healing me to max for free after most encounters). Personally, I felt it was probably among the worst ones, since it made most combat encounters a waste of time (especially when tied to 30 second transitions in and out of combat)

[@Ramsey276one]

The Element system... I want to play with it again!

[@Dumbird0]

@@VerticalEvent I wouldnt say that. you do gain a limited amount of stats per area.

[@benedict6962]

@@Dumbird0 That's exactly what he said. Personally I think they could have taught the player how to optimize combos better across the vast numbers of characters. Having bosses gate huge leaps in power meant that you basically had to relearn your party after every boss, it's a lot of learning cliffs instead of gradual curves.

[@SaberToothPortilla]

Great video as always! I also appreciate that you always upload your videos with subtitles day one. It's the little extra effort that makes it feel a lot more... professional? That seems a bit exaggerated, especially since a lot else about these gives that impression! Keep up the good work!

[@DS-si5cp]

What about Tales series Intrinsic and Extrinsic mix of levels, skills, and comboing the shit out of enemies?

[@Cyborgs7]

Or phantasy Star online 2 that seem to be a good example

[@benedict6962]

I can't say I'm a fan of "Use X move 100 times to learn new move". It's not a particularly organic way to teach a player how to combo properly.

[@Archonus]

@@benedict6962 I don't mind that if the next skill is an evolved or altered version of the first skill.

[@benedict6962]

@@Archonus My issue is more with the intention of the mechanic not quite resulting in players understanding how to use the skill properly.

[@TheWernecker]

The "Trails of" series has a nice take on leveling, the actual level of characters is pretty dynamic with the progress of the story: lower leveled characters receive bonus XP and overleveled ones get less, trying to stay in a chapter even. There is also the quartz system that relies on little crystals called sepith to compose stat changing and skill granting items that fit in a grid-like system, one that can be more grindy although not a bore. All towards crafting a compeling yet not punishing experience.

[@FiatNyx]

Paper mario 1 and 2 also did something similar. Lower challenges ennemies (Like from previous chapters) only gives 1 star point.

[@WaywardRyu]

Praise the Kiseki series.

[@gamefeelings]

That is what most MMORPGS do. It essentially boils down to only one path having 'optimal' xp vs time. That is why I don't like it. The thing is that these games allow for an open world like gameplay, but then they contradict themselves by having mechanics that let you know there is only 1 true path to take: the one the designers thought out for you.

[@FiatNyx]

@@gamefeelings Paper mario works with chapters, so that's not a problem at all

[@plentyofpaper]

Another feature of the levelup mechanic is that it allows a developer more wiggle room with game difficulty. In a game with no character strengthening, a player's only option to get past a difficult part of the game is to "get good." By allowing a player to make their character stronger instead, another path through a difficult portion is revealed, which reduces player frustration. On the flip side, a horrible difficulty spike in a game with level-ups may force a player to level up because getting good is impractical. Then there's also the approach of having enemy power scale to your character's level. This makes the game more skill focused, and leaves the role of leveling up to being able to execute more complex gameplay maneuvers rather than acting as a difficulty balancer. This approach is particularly appropriate in games that are designed to have a lot of options in terms of what order you complete different events in.

[@Lukz243]

I gotta say: Skill trees are overwhelming for me. They get me too stressed on what ability i should pick everytime

[@jpedro1800]

lol, for me it is the contrary, I think it is really boring when my character just learn everything in a predetermined path, a lot of times making me feel like leveling up shoun't even be in the game...

[@legendarytat8278]

Perhaps limit the amount of future upgrades you can see, and you can see more as you level up. This should limit choice paralysis, and also allow some degree of planning ahead. This should make players more excited to level up, because besides getting stronger, they also get rewarded by unlocking more upgrades that you can see, thus getting them more excited to get the next upgrade.

[@b-d9099]

Personally i love having options. Characters learning the same exact skills through level up or side quests means no variety, but when you have some customization at your disposal it can become a lot more interesting assuming it's not like ff6 where your characters don't matter in the endgame as long as they have ultima

[@shiromakoto]

Never look at the skill tree for "Path of Exile" then

[@OlliGui]

The skill tree for Final Fantasy X made me so stressed that I gave up playing like 5 times

[@Ganondward]

"What did they do to you?" "They leveled up."

[@marunalister5597]

Words cannot describe how much I hate you right now. Curse you for reminding me of that.

[@RadicalKingJames]

Loved seeing clips of Crosscode in this vid. It blends the level up systems of action games and JRPGs well.

[@DarkFrozenDepths]

At first, I thought about doing a stat point system with a skill point system, but just stuck with skill points. Some abilities will be locked behind story progression, special transformations, and even some item boxes or events, but I still wanted to give more freedom in building characters. Plus, if there's something like an enemy that's weak against Ice or physical damage, you have multiple ways to attack it, even if you never learned any skills or magic beyond what's given to you.

[@DerMichael]

Morrowind uses an unusual level system. You get experience in each skill separately by using it. For example, your trading skill gets better by trading, your jumping skill gets better by jumping, and your armor skill gets better by getting hit while wearing armor. When you used your skill enough - say you made 20 purchases - you level up the skill. When you level up your skills 10 times combined, your character gets a level up. By leveling up your character, you get 3 attribute points that you can put in general attributes like strength or social skills which will boost all skills of the corresponding attribute. Each of the 3 invested attribute points can provide more value if is spent on an attribute that you leveled skills for. And you actually only level up when you go to sleep, so you can postpone any level up to increase your skills further to get more out of your attribute points. en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Level

[@kalsaraan]

Indeed, I was looking for someone mentioning the elder scroll's style of leveling. It is my personal favorite kind of leveling, but can turn out very grindey if tuned to be so (Like in Runescape). The combination of perks at certain levels in Oblivion or the skill tree system in Skyrim can add a lot of depth to that particular style, and I wish more games utilized it.

[@nybxcrotona]

@@kalsaraan Skyrim's Skill tree is solid, but you couldn't focus on non-combat skills and become a stronger fighter (although you could bump up your health and stamina). Oblivion and Morrowind let you do that, and reserve your level-ups for later.

[@nybxcrotona]

Speaking on skill-based levelling, I do like the idea that you make the character you want by utilizing the skills you regularly would in gameplay, but it does force you to use things you normally wouldn't, only because it because useful to you after a certain point.

[@rompevuevitos222]

TES has a pretty good one, but having to spec into all skills to level up consistently is pretty dumb, it got to the point where, to keep leveling in Skyrim, you have to delete your skill points, which is an even dumber solution imo ofc you can just focus on the skills you actually want, but it's way faster to level up those skills you rarely use

[@philithegamer8265]

@@nybxcrotona The build system is just a one size fits all mess.

[@llareia]

I think this is one of your best videos yet. Everyone has covered progression systems, but you still managed to do it better. Loved it!

[@recklesflam1ngo968]

0:28 Oh wow, I haven't seen Puzzle Quest in quite a few years

[@munem939]

One thing you didn't mention with Devil May Cry is that the levelling up system in that game is also an intrinsic system as you can level up how stylish you can make your mission runs, redo missions and use all of your experience to get higher and higher mission rank results. You can go from mashing Melee to doing Guard Flying and Star Rave

[@UserShadow7989]

You mentioned Pokemon’s leveling system, but there’s more to the progression inherent in it: the Pokemon themselves. Each area gives you new Pokemon to catch, each trainer previews what new species may be just around the corner, or even shows off new things about familiar faces you might’ve missed (like new moves they have at higher levels). The process of catching a new Pokemon also does a good job of demonstrating what they can do, as harder to catch Pokemon will continue to fight each turn you fail to catch them, letting you see a sneak peak of their moves and abilities in the process. Always having that excitement attached to reaching a new area adds to the player’s enthusiasm for exploration and continuing through the game, even before getting to mixing and matching different team compositions. This customization both of individual Pokemon (picking different moves, split evolutions, etc) is the same driving force behind collectable/trading card games. There’s a reason “Gotta Catch’em All!” is a catchphrase that managed to ingrain itself into so many different childhoods.

[@rompevuevitos222]

That's the game's main PROGRESSION, not the leveling system, which this video is talking about

[@WillieHoule]

I've always loved the Final Fantasy X giant skill tree where all the character start from different point on the grid and you can earn skill and stats boost by moving around the skill tree and you can go anywhere you want giving you the freedom to build your character

[@saxor96]

"It also helps take what would be a dizzying array of moves and parcels them out slowly, so players don't get overwhelmed by having to learn everything at once". Did you hear that, game companies that sell us experience/progression points with real money?

[@Soumein]

CEO: oPtIoNaL.

[@luliby2309]

A lot of those games that rely on Intrinsic Progression are what I've coined Encounter Games. You know, they're the ones that you sit down to play "a game of", like how you'll play a game of Chess, you can play a game of Magic, of Hearthstone, of Rocket League, or many other games where you play against another player (sometimes you can play against AI opponents though). Some of these games, the digital ones or digital versions of them, can also have level up systems, but they mainly seem to give you cosmetic items. The ones that tend to have Extrinsic Progression are what I've coined Timeline Games, where you play through a whole timeline or campaign of events/story/whatever.

[@mitsurudy]

You forget to mention the level up system in Lost Odyssey, where it actually discourages grinding.

[@ryanager8029]

One of my favourite weird systems for level up is Dragon’s Dogma. Dragon’s Dogma uses 2 types of currency for level up: Experience, and Discipline. Experience goes towards traditional level ups: these raise your 6 stats: strength, defence, magick, Magick defence, health and stamina. Discipline is used to buy skills for your current vocation, as well as unlock other vocations. (Total discipline earned while in one vocation ranks up said vocation, unlocking new skills for purchase, even if you spend 0 discipline points in that vocation outside of unlocking it.) You get Discipline for getting experience, but the percentage you get is inverse to the amount of experience you get. This means getting a big chunk of experience, from say, a quest turn in, doesn’t reward you with much discipline, but slaying a bunch of mobs will. In addition to this there is also a gear system, which has its own upgrade system, which involves both money and material investment, but also has the quirk of killing dragons supercharging your gear.

[@Nyahahameha]

In a potential follow up, I'd like to see some discussion of how Level Up systems could be misplaced in games that really don't need them, and end up bloating what would otherwise have been a much tighter and well focused experience. The biggest offender on my personal list is the Dynasty Warriors series since, let's be honest, character growth and making creative character builds are not the selling points to games in that series. Yet for some reason, KoeiTecmo feels the need to keep shoehorning in Level Up systems into their games, which only end up serving to restrict players by not giving characters their full movesets right away (without the justification action games like DMC and God of War have of those movesets being overwhelming if presented all at once), and increasing the grind required to make multiple characters usable for more difficult missions later in the games. The kicker is that KoeiTecmo have basically admitted these systems don't add anything to the games via having ways to circumvent at least the basic exp threshold system in most of the recent titles; Hyrule Warriors, Pirate Warriors 3 and 4, and Gundam Reborn all give the player the ability to buy exp for their characters with in game currency. These level up systems also contribue to making it difficult to tailor the experience of playing these Dynasty Warriors games. There's the exp system governing their base stats, most games have an equipment system that also factors into each characters' attack power and gives a variety of bonus effects, some of which serve to increase the attack power of certain moves. In addition, most Dynasty Warriors games have two seperate difficulty settings that determine how powerful enemies will be within a given battle: the "star" system which makes battels later on in a campaign more difficult than earlier ones, and the player-set "easy, medium, hard" difficutly on top of that. These things make it nearly impossible to tell how a given character will do on a given stage before the fight starts, so players wanting an easy-medium difficutly run the risk of making it _too_ easy and getting bored, and players who want a difficult time run the risk of making levels basically impossible to complete. Fate Extella LINK provides an excellent contrast to this, doing away with (most, not all) the unneeded progression systems in favor of an upgrade system that makes progression universal across the playable cast, and a system that allows characters not being played as to be developed through completing tasks in battle.

[@1ab23c4d5e6f]

Personally, i love the way Underrail handles its leveling (specifically oddity). The way that it divorces xp from basically only murdering things, the way you get new features every other level, the way that the stat increases have tangible immediate effects, and how it encourages exploration both of new locations and new builds are all awesome.

[@Cyberian_Khatru]

"skill trees provide new abilities for each step on the progression ladder" *shows borderlands* In a serious note: I feel that, although everything you said is true, the video was kind of all over the place and with no real conclusion. Also, I think that the topic itself was way too broad to go into specific examples so thoroughly. In consequence, I think you missed out many other aspects of leveling systems, and it wasn't clear what's the difference between a good and a bad leveling system. What about the games that gatekeep content through leveling systems, be it gear or story? What about games where players can level up asymmetrically (Coop or live service games)? Plus, it feels like the things you mentioned that make up a good leveling system are just things that apply to games in general; makes me think that those games could let go of their leveling systems while keeping the tangible stuff and players won't feel like they're on a treadmill. Not to mention that devs have a bad habit of making enemies stronger by increasing their level without any mechanical difference.

[@AndrewJayGuitar]

Thank you for all the hard work that you put into these videos. It's a truly fantastic channel with a lot to learn. Also, is that the Tales of Symphonia dungeon music I hear in the background? If so, that's just awesome.

[@k1rbyguy]

I really like that Celeste is entirely intrinsic. There's no level up system, so theoretically I can start a new file and burn through it in a couple of hours. But when you play it for the first time, you have to learn all of the mechanics and build muscle memory for the trickier jumps. Celeste is THE game for making you feel like you're really improving all on your own merits.

[@ruolbu]

Isn't that true for most platformers? Gameplay that depends on player skill instead of abstract numbers going up. Like Donkey Kong, Rayman, Mario etc.

[@k1rbyguy]

@@ruolbu I guess it is true for most platformers, but Celeste's difficulty curve seems designed specifically to make you notice your own improvements

[@neodymus]

@@k1rbyguy i also thought of celeste. No level up system is really good too (it's what Design doc talk about in the beginning though)

[@Azure9577]

Monster Hunter does this too tho

[@quadpad_music]

​@@neodymus Wdym? He never said there aren't good leveling systems.

[@joshuamedina6807]

In smt you can't fuse above your level meaning you get more party options for every level up and that feels so great it also makes %100 catching them all interesting because if you fuse everything every level up you will literally complete it naturally but if you don't worry about it you end up missing hundreds of possible fusion's and it feels like %100 is impossible and stat growth is put exactly where a player puts them it provides incentive for replaying the game while reseting everything instead of keeping your progress for NG+ but with stat items and the later games compendium search features allows you to see every way to specifically get something new 1 demon can be fused 100+ ways or only 1 allowing rare fusion's to exist that makes it very interesting to keep you learning you can spend hundreds of hours fusing alone or just do it occasionally to beat the next boss there's so much room for creativity and expression it's truly a lovely franchise

[@nthquery7776]

I think the SaGa series has a pretty unique leveling system, hope its given a look next time

[@Ramsey276one]

If there's a part two, it HAS to talk about Disgaea!

[@varsoonhks3211]

SaGa is notoriously overlooked by Western gamers given its failure to launch and how markedly different it is in design from most of the JRPG genre.

[@RTDArtist]

Also the fact that enemies in the SaGa games level up based on not just how many battles but how strong you get as well.

[@eduardorpg64]

This is one of the best videos you've done in a while. It's professional, the segway to the Skillshare ad wasn't awkward, and the content of the video itself was quite engaging! The only thing that could improve is that you should use more text while explaining your ideas: I got so distracted looking at the gameplay footage that I couldn't pay attention to some of the ideas that you were saying. Keep up the good work!

[@cosmicspacething3474]

0:12 “Game over”

[@ShadowArabesque]

Gotta love how KH(mostly referring about 2FM) uses extrinsic progression to get you acquainted to the game mechanics and help you develop a play style, then you go to critical lv1 and it becomes intrinsic

[@DragoSmash]

"Pokemon is a real plain vanilla leveling system" me, thinking about EVs and IVs which are also tied to the leveling system: 👁️👄👁 granted, he does mentions it, and its true the game plays itself without the need of them, but once you learn about them, you can't ever look back

[@DragoSmash]

@Manannan anam not quite, Digimon Cyber Sleuth extra points are an example of how EVs and natures could be simple Pokemon aren't, first off, there's a total limit of 510, with an individual limit of 255 for each stat, you get 1 extra point for each 4 EVs but this extra is programmed to level 100 they aren't given immediately, on top you don't know what pokemon gives what EVs without a guide or trial and error, and of course all of these numbers are hidden, all you can get is an idea on how much the Pokémon has but not exact numbers Now if i explain Digimon's, the max extra points your Digimon can have is 50 plus half of it's ABI, you get points by training, by which it gets points based on it's personality and the leader's personality, and you can always see the exact extra points your Digimon has

[@KaruHart]

its a very trivial mechanics, that it doesnt really warrant a discussion tbh

[@DragoSmash]

@@KaruHart tell that to competitive Pokemon players

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

Samuria natures still have a pretty noticeable impact even on the story for the average player. Natures that negatively impact your best stats especially when dealing with cases where the ability doubles that stat like huge power maril line can massively harm that Pokémon. Sure evs aren’t very impactful on the casual play but natures actually have a lot of impact. Also evs can occasionally be worth going for In nuzlockes after a particularly unlucky gym fight though I wouldn’t call challenge runs casual ( for instance in emerald normally flannery starts insanely powerful with her stab overheats but gets progressively weaker due to the move dropping special attack crits ignore stat drops though so while switching a fire resist mon tank her first mon till it’s at lower special attack then setting up on it can work if she suddenly bypasses double team and hits your maxed attack ninjask after barely surviving then healing it up and critting half your team to death can be brutal at that point I usually just ev train anorith from the claw fossil after a near party wipe getting about ten attack per level.)

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

Samuria eh I mean sometimes people will do ev training in games with super training just for the items given by the secret super training. Like if you wanna get an evolution stone or something. Most likely in omega ruby and alpha sapphire since hoeen region is pretty barren on ways to get evolution stones.

[@razor774]

In a Game Development course right now. This is a great reflection of the many different possibilities for leveling characters in a game and a chance to compare and contrast what works.

[@icetones6706]

i feel like pokemon has the best of both worlds in this "intristic vs extrinstic" definition. the extrinsic results of being able to use more powerful moves and of being able to ohko enemies who once were at least a somewhat threat? amazing, stupendous, i love it. but those powerful moves mean nothing if you dont have at least a basic understanding of how the type matchups work or what the different pokemon are better at doing both yours and the opponents, at least in an even matchup. and even then, that's intristic too. Knowing when you'll be overpowered or underpowered is a skill gained over time, and as your own skill level improves, those levels shift.

[@MrNovascar]

I love Grandia's system. It's usage-based system. Every character can equip 3 weapons and learn elemental magic(fire/wind/water/earth) with mana eggs. Whenyou attack or cast magic your weapon/magic skill-level goes up. Reaching specific level unlocks new spells or combat talents. Each stat is also tied to a weapon or element. So using a lot of fire-magic will increase your strength. This encourages the use of spells and talents over regular attacks, even against easy enemies. It gives me a reason to use all aspect of the combat system.

[@QyfieK]

Well, firstly you need levels... and then you increase them.

[@DarkFrozenDepths]

And in the case of some games, numbers for levels can get high. Star Ocean stops at lv255, the game I'm making stops at 300, Disgaea stops at 9999, and the fanmade Touhou Labyrinth games... I don't even know if those have a cap on levels...

[@Cyborgs7]

Runescape ?

[@thearsonistofarland3087]

Sticker Star: I do not comprehend

[@yoshwell7515]

16:00 Labyrinth of Refrain: Coven of Dusk did something similar to this as well. Later on in the game you can unlock the ability to stockpile exp after a fight. It's not mandatory but doing so consecutively will increase the exp earned and the multiplier increases after every successful battle in the chain. However, getting wiped out or not cashing it in before you leave a dungeon entirely means that it's all gone (I think fleeing from combat might break the chain as well but I'm not sure). It can be incredibly helpful since dead units don't gain exp so if you barely scrape out a win against a boss or tough enemy, you can stockpile the exp, revive as many allies as you can and then enter a smaller battle to cash the exp in on more characters. I think it's a really interesting risk/ reward system that is helped by a lot of the games other systems. The in-depth customization of units from the start, the various covens (team set-ups with differing skill sets) earned as you explore, the large number of units you can have at any given time in battle and supporting in covens as well as the varied passives gained on level up and class synergies reincarnating brings usually means that something is always improving after every battle.

[@6Jarv9]

A video about leveling and no mentions to Disgaea, where the max level is 9999? Heresy

[@arogustus3984]

And as of the most recent Nintendo Direct, the new Disgaea 6 has the level cap at 100 million.

[@sockknight3927]

Just because Disgaea is full of such high numbers doesn't make the game more interesting than other level-up systems, if anything I'd even say it scares people off.

[@6Jarv9]

@@sockknight3927 I'd say it's very much worth mentioning in a video about level up systems. Most of the Disgaea gameplay is based around leveling. You level up your character, you level up your items, you level up innocents (stuff that lives inside an item, increasing its stats), and you level up your abilities. There are many, many systems in the game that play around Leveling up. * The cheat shop, where you can increase enemies power, so that they give more xp, or give up on some rewards like money in exchange for more exp. * A certain innocent that can increase exp gain by a maximum of 900%. * A squad system, in which one of them works as an "exp share". And that's just for character leveling, items have another completely different way of leveling them up. TLDR: I really think Disgaea was worth mentioning in this video, maybe for the second part, if Design Doc makes it!

[@benedict6962]

@@sockknight3927 as Red says, Disgaea is a very important example because it turns the act of grinding and the different methods you can pursue for progression as part of the game. You game the system, and that in itself is fun. Various methods can be better in efficiency, while others plug up weaknesses that can be exploited if you're caught in a bad tactical position or map.

[@ceresgc]

Now I'm interested. What's that game about?

[@fatyoshi696]

Into the Breach has a really cool leveling up system, tied to Reactor Cores. These are rare items, only obtainable from specific randomly appearing missions, by collecting Time Pods, which also can appear randomly at the beginning of every mission, or by purchasing them at the end of an island. When you install these cores to your mech, they give a permanent Reactor Point upgrade, which can be used to increase your mech's health, amount of moves or to power up its weapons. The best part about the Reactor Points is that they're reversible, meaning that you can change up your build at any point by reassigning these points to another upgrade, removing the stress of making a bad investment out of these extra rare items. Plus, new weapons are obtained in a similar manner, random weapons become available to purchase after clearing an island, and can be equipped and switched around just like Reactor Points, meaning they contribute to the idea of being able to try new strategies at any time without committing to any permanent upgrades. It might seem like the entire leveling-up system is RNG-based, and it actually is, which is a good thing, because the availability of Reactor Cores being random and their rarity makes it feel that much better when you do get your hands on one, rather than it feeling like the RNG is screwing you over if you don't get any. RNG determining what weapons are available to buy also helps provide variety across different runs (oh yeah i didn't mention Into the Breach is a roguelike) as well as providing the sense of progression that comes from level-up systems. Into the Breach overall has a really unique level-up system while staying simple and not forcing the player to make any difficult or permanent decisions and it would be cool to see you talk about it if you do make a follow-up video.

[@GryphShot]

Another interesting thing that Into the Breach does is allow you to keep one pilot from each run. By not fully resetting it doesn't feel as bad to lose. The downside is that by doing this the game discourages you from trying new pilots.

[@fatyoshi696]

Yeah i actually have one dude who I've carried through a bunch of runs just because I got attached to him and because he gives 1 extra reactor point to his mech, which makes him crazy good in the early game

[@BAIGAMING]

I love Disgaea, such a unique leveling system and to beat the postgame you need to exploit the mechanics of the game and grind 😁

[@Cuiasodo]

I don't know how you would classify this kind of level-up system, but I really enjoy how the social links system in Persona 5 upgraded the old system to incorporate multiple buffs. In prior games, growing social links gave you a boost when fusing personas, but it either didn't give you anything else or, in the case of Persona 4, gave you some extra buffs if you spoke with team members. In 5, no matter who you talk to, you get neat little bonuses that are reflected in combat or in the palace sequences. I just think it's neat when a game packs several bonuses into a level-up activity to help incentivise exploring all the game has to offer.

[@CabeliotCometier]

Bug Fables progression is both intrinsic and extrinsic, and the way you build your team matters and no way is worse. (Except those all-HP loonies)

[@rompevuevitos222]

Actually, tanking isn't that bad, specially if you block well But yeah, pretty sure the game was originally intended to only award MP when leveling up (since there is even a cheat code to enable that mode)

[@CabeliotCometier]

@@rompevuevitos222 Full HP investment in Bug Fables is inflexible and doesn't have much compatibility with an assortment of strategies, leading to an item-heavy playstyle that requires even more grinding than an RPG would reasonably expect

[@rompevuevitos222]

@@CabeliotCometier Obviously it isn't a good idea and you'll be greatly limiting yourself in combo potential and as a result limiting yourself on damage dealt But it's a usable strategy outside of hard mode Not good, but certainly not useless, you can always re-spec before the final and most difficult zones anyway

[@DarkDemon259]

I'm a big fan of the system in the Bravely Default series. Each character has their own levels and exp bar as usual but you can assign each character a main and sub job/class that you unlock as you progress through the story or do side quests. The main job has it's own levels and exp bar tied to each character and you can use most of the skills that the character has unlocked when set as a sub job. Gives you a lot of customization options and the anticipation of unlocking new and unique jobs keep you hooked and makes you want to do side quests and bonus content to unlock them. Let's say you had a character set as a white mage to be your primary healer for a while. You later unlock the black mage job which you can then equip to that character to make them more offensive. But since that character had some experience as a white mage, you set it as a sub job and now they have both offensive and support magic that combos well since both jobs have a stat distribution that favors MP and magic stats.

[@varsoonhks3211]

"For a different spin on traditional level up systems..." Oh, man, is he gonna bring up any of the games in the SaGa Franchise? Scarlet Grace recently came out and it's such a breath of fresh air compared to-- "...try Final Fantasy 9." Welp. You tried. The problem is that the linear levels you gain from fights never afford you anything interesting. The abilities you earn from items WOULD serve for a neat system, but the game is so sparse with offering new gear that by the time you can get a new ability, you've already learned the last one. There's never any real decision when it comes to 'builds' as the passives on offer are either too sparse to merit a 'build' or you can just equip all the ones worth using and avoid the several that aren't. There's an illusion of agency, but the game so slowly trickles out what you have available to you that it aught as well be a strictly linear system. I don't think there's a single system in Final Fantasy 9 that's executed well at all, for the record. That game is a mess, from a design perspective. At least you brought up Lost Odyssey, since it does the same 'learn from gear' system but actually gives the player a ton more in terms of decisions and agency. Seriously, though, if you're interesting in a Japanese RPG that actually does tons to reward player agency, SaGa Frontier is such a gem to highlight, with how there are multiple races that all progress differently and how much each fight can contribute to how you're building a character.

[@theflashgordon193]

a mess from design perspective ? what make you think that ?

[@yellowishnesses1138]

I'm late, but not as late as SaGa Frontier's developers were when the game was released. In all seriousness, SaGa Frontier was awesome, but it reeks of wasted potential. I haven't seen any other game like it, though. Not even the other SaGa games.

[@philithegamer8265]

Oh boy wait until you see the junction system in FF8.

[@Delmworks]

8:50 hearing this, I personally think that “Peninsulas of power leveling” and “disc one nukes” aka area or tatics that can give you a massive power lead ealry game- are so important. If somthing is powerful, available ealry, but is obscure and off the beaten path, it rewards returning players who have already intrinsically progressed by providing a way to bypass a lot of extrinsic progression

[@SomeRPGFan]

I loved Lost Odyssey. Totally agree.

[@crisiscore341]

I want to love Lost Odyssey, but I don't have an Xbox. I really need to play this game, it looks so fun and the music is awesome.

[@Salgood01]

Thanks for the clip at the end with Three Houses. I’ve never been able to enjoy the game due to the bombardment of choices for my “level-ups”

[@ameliagrey5276]

Hearing CrossCode music right at the start made me really happy

[@LemonRush7777]

No level up system is the best system. Something like Monster Hunter has is the ideal, letting equipment dictate your character strength, with multiple sidegrades possible, but above all letting the player's own ability dictate effectiveness instead of just increasing his avatar's strength, which can quickly lead to the trivialization of large parts of the game by optimization or excessive grinding on the player part (sometimes unintentionally, even). Of course this is not always possible (and significantly difficult in turn-based combat), but it's a good goal to strive towards.

[@nybxcrotona]

So, an intrinsic system mentioned in the video, similar to chess or fighting games?

[@dawsy1000]

Kingdom hearts: birth by sleep has a very interesting progression system. As you play through the game you unlock battle commands through various means, like killing enemies, searching chests, and most interestingly, combining commands together. For example, If you combine fire and sliding dash together, you get fire dash. Additionally, commands have abilites tied to them, each one giving you some bonus like extra HP, faster movement, more damage with certain attacks, defensive bonuses, and so on. By equipping a command with an ability, you keep that ability until you remove it. commands have levels, and the cool thing is that if you max the level of a command, the ability tied to it is permanently equipped to your character. This gets you to mix up your commands a lot, so your command deck never gets stagnant. maxed commands can still be fused to make new ones too, so a command never truely loses its value

[@PixelSlayers]

FF9 is still one of my favorite leveling systems

[@rompevuevitos222]

FF Tactics A2 uses the same system, except (since you can have up to 36 party members trough recruiting) they are locked to each class instead of character But you can change classes at any time (provided the class is available for the race of the character)

[@varsoonhks3211]

Why?

[@rompevuevitos222]

@@varsoonhks3211 You are gonna upgrade equipment anyway, getting a skill alongside the stat increase isn't that bad, it's also better than having to choose between a new weapon and a new skill ALSO, you get to keep the skill I wouldn't choose it myself, but it isn't nearly as bad as it looks like

[@PixelSlayers]

@@varsoonhks3211 It's customizable without being too complex. It lets you utilize older or weaker weapons by gaining abilities from them. Each character has different restrictions so they don't all become just the same types of stats (I'm looking at you FF8). It flows well with the game and I just really enjoyed playing with it. What's your favorite?

[@The_One_and_Oni25]

I had an idea for a level up system where you get a few basic abilities at the start, and they get very marginally stronger every time you use them, or maybe after each kill you get with that move, and you unlock new moves by getting high enough levels in similar moves

[@massiveprogressive9488]

"What makes a good level up system?" Not Pokemon Go, that's for bloody sure!

[@Panory]

My favorite progression system is Tokyo Mirage Sessions. It has so many moving parts that all work in tandem to ensure you're always working towards something. There's the basic "kill stuff to earn exp" that levels you up, increasing some stats at random, of course. But then weapons have their own exp, based not on enemies killed, but usage. If you attack a lot, your weapon levels up faster, and when your weapon levels up, you learn a new skill, up to five per weapon. But character usage matters too, because it's tied to Stage Rank. Twenty levels of Stage Rank, each one unlocking a new passive skill, or even sometimes a side story, which nets you a powerful Duo Art or Ad-lib Attack.

[@keeganlafferty1395]

I'll tell you what DOESN'T make a good level system, RANDOM CHANCE (angrily glares at Crisis Core FFVII)

[@rompevuevitos222]

Most RPGs use chance, even Pokemon and most FFs use chance for level ups, sometimes they have a small impact, other times it's pretty massive I remember FF Tactics A2 had a system where you have a CHANCE of increasing speed by 1 each level up (depending on the class used during lvl up) So if you got lucky, your tanky soldier(48% chance per lvl) could be always act first while the ninja(90% chance/lvl) could end up with really low speed and not get to act nearly as often

[@keeganlafferty1395]

@@rompevuevitos222 no, I mean when leveling up itself is random, not stat distribution, because in Crisis Core you had to get all 7s in the slot machine thing when you are about to trigger a limit break in order to level up

[@rompevuevitos222]

@@keeganlafferty1395 Ok, wtf? Wohever made that system needs some time in the corner

[@keeganlafferty1395]

@@rompevuevitos222 ikr, and while there is a hidden "exp counter" it simply increases the chances of getting all 7s, WHY NOT JUST HAVE THAT COUNTER DO WHAT IT USUALLY DOES IN YOUR GAMES?!?!?!

[@theflashgordon193]

I mean it's not completly random apparently you have a invisible EXP that increase when you kill monster. when you have enough XP only then you can level up with the slot machine.

[@benjaminholcomb9478]

One of my personal favorites is Titanfall 2. A Macro unlock system, a micro unlock system, a cosmetic unlock system, and a stacking progression system all in one. (Plus a side progression system too.)

[@temporalwolf7054]

Honestly, I'd argue that FF9 is NOT a good leveling up system. Especially with the abilities being tied to gear. The point of "Low level gear having a point" is honestly the worst thing about it. On paper, it could very well work wonders (as Lost Odyssey does it better), but in execution each normal battle gives so few AP and the skills cost so much AP to learn, that unless you go out of your way to grind, you're likely not going to have the skills you want to learn finished by the time the next better piece of gear comes up. This hamstrings magic users in particular, as their spells are also tied to equipment instead of learned naturally, and so the most vulnerable characters with the biggest hitting spells are usually trying to finish learning spells and/or abilities while making them more vulnerable and less effective in combat because they don't have the better gear, making the game feel less like being rewarded with something every couple battles, and more like trying to run 5 treadmills at once.

[@elrond501st]

Disgaea has a ridiculous of interconnected systems that all work toward leveling up various aspects of your characters. The grind, and the process of optimizing it, is a huge focus. It's far more fun than one might expect.

[@brianjroth27]

This content is EXACTLY my type of content. I'm a huge sucker for a good level up systems. When I first popped in Mass Effect 3 and opening the skill tree up, I spent 20 minutes at the start just reading up on how my skills can evolve and do cooler stuff. Same with FF7R. Another system I liked was Bravely Defaults', another system where you have more freedom to make the team you want to make. And anyone can have any job you have. My vote is for a follow-up one! Highlighting great systems but then also touching on a few games where it missed the mark.

[@baconlabs]

Since I'm replaying Advance Wars: Dual Strike right now, I might as well bring up its leveling system, because it's very unusual for the series, but it works quite well for me. Victories in any single-player game mode will be given a score - be fast, destroy lots of units, and keep your units alive for higher scores. These points are then awarded to the Commanding Officer(s) you chose, building towards level-ups, which don't directly impact your abilities but allow you to equip 1-4 extra abilities, such as better vision in Fog of War, universal offense/defense boosts, and unit discounts. They are never necessary, but they are fun to mess around with, and can help give a new player an advantage on a difficult map. Additionally, the aforementioned points are ALSO added to a sort of meta-currency that you spend from the main menu, rather than in battle, to unlock more multiplayer maps, more playable COs, custom CO color palettes (and, if a CO is at max level, an alternate costume for them), and odds and ends like a sound test and the Hard campaign. So, in a way, it's almost like a never-ending New Game+ that spans multiple game modes, where you're constantly earning points to replay maps with different COs, leveling them all up to reach their fullest potential (or just to see their alt. costumes), and beating your own high scores. It kept me hooked for a long time, and it feels great to hop back into it after so many years.

[@scottnisbet6455]

Im so happy at the CrossCode clip at the very start

[@residentgrey]

Robotrek is the first game I am aware of that you can change your stats at any time, which makes progression a different affair. I even took advantage of the ability in my first playthrough to beat the tank boss in Past Quintenix, which is easily seen as the hardest boss in the game. Surpassing that challenge actually felt earned. Plus the fact you can get two Seed only if you pick it up before going to the past was a nice touch too. I still love the charm of the game.