What permaculture(ists) get wrong

I want to be very clear here: My point is NOT to say that using hand shovels is wrong, and using machines is right. My point is that attacking people who use machines is not only counterproductive but also it's wrong - machines can be effective tools to drive faster change - and right now we need fast change. And if you ever find yourself in a place criticizing someone for using a machine to perform good (earthworks for permaculture projects) that I do hope this video helps you reconsider your position.
Technology isn't bad. We shouldn't be trying to revert back to pre-tech and living in tents in the woods, and anyone who doesn't is destroying the planet. We can often come across that way, and we need to stop it. I see it too often, and it hurts our movement. I saw it three times in one day (one directed at myself in a private message), and thus made this video to try to tackle the topic.
We need to use technology, in smart ways, to shape the future and heal the planet in the most efficient way possible. And where that technology does NOT make sense, then we do not use it.
As always, keep the discussion civil please. I don't want to steer the discussion, but I will delete comments that attack others for having a different opinion. Remember that we're all on the same team here, and we're all fighting to save our wonderful planet.
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[@edibleacres]

I think it's helpful/interesting to bring up this topic and make the case you are making. I do think there is a lot more subtle and complex nuance to all of it and more variables to explore, though. Probably too much to cover in one video, but it seems important to mention that it is not just about choosing to use a machine or not. There are questions around access, resource and privilege here too. The cost in dollars can be a true limiting factor for a huge number of people that would benefit tremendously from earth works in a landscape, also physical access on steeper slopes, degraded and hyper fragile eroded landscapes, etc. Also the reality that the machines coming and going, if traversing over root systems of existing trees and landscape can be pretty injurious to their health. That isn't me saying 'oh, machines are bad' in any way. I think leveraging their power where appropriate is really useful and I've been floored with what they can do when I've had access to them, but the human scale and group labor approach has some beautiful benefit and allows for incredibly detailed and subtle worked elements in how the soil is moved. I recently saw a video of a village in western India where 90 people for 90 days dug and created a 3/4 acre pond and massive, accurate swale works on a fragile hillside. They dug it for themselves, for their benefit and the generations beyond. The history of earth moving labor is insanely loaded with violence, enslavement, and other negative aspects, but can also be reclaimed by folks to do amazing good where they are, without having to bring in the machines. I guess I'm suggesting just much more complexity to the picture, beyond bringing in a machine or choosing not to... Thanks for sharing your thoughts here!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I think this is a really important comment that gives a lot of extra areas at play here. I am going to pin this. This is exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to generate. Thanks for taking time out of your day to come post :) You really hit on a beautiful point when you talk about groups coming together to complete large projects like the India dig. Things like this can bring together groups of people and create long lasting peace and community that lasts many many generations, and even has the power to sway local politics. I cannot understate how powerful something like this can be for humanity as a whole. Very very good addition to the discussion.

[@MarcBujold]

I really like both side of this discussion! I believe it has a lot to do with context as well. I would love nothing more then to get a bunch of people together to do some of these projects but unfortunately most people I know aren't interested or are stuck in the grind like I am. So for me it comes down using what I have available, capital in the form of money and machinery. Great discussion!!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

What will be even better is when more and more people get interested in this kind of thing, we will naturally get more community style builds popping up all over the world. We are really at a tipping point with permaculture and sustainability, and climate change being in the spotlight is doing so much good for getting large scale sustainability projects going. The future may be scary but it will also be very exciting as people come together and create large scale restoration projects. Or maybe I'm just a dreamer.

[@ericsmith903]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I agree, really good points all around. I think there needs to be a real consideration, when we take on projects and make decisions about machine use, about how our carbon emissions amortize. We like to talk about planting for the long term but the math of use and offset doesn't always enter the picture. We had the good fortune this year to receive chips through the town, and relying solely on hand power and a wheelbarrow would have kept my personal footprint low but left me unable to keep up with their schedule. By using a tractor with a front end loader I could keep up with the tree crew and prevent their need for a twelve mile round trip to their other dump site. For eight gallons of fuel on my side we prevented 360 miles of travel for the dump truck they used. That puts this project at a net carbon-negative at its start simply because I had access to a tractor. And while not everyone has access to that sort of equipment, I feel that Sean's primary approach of community and social earthworks promotes the growth of interpersonal connections that opens paths to people that do (and are the sort to help). Maybe, just maybe, choosing to use heavy machinery is just like any other design decision; one where as designers we need to leave our biases to the side when we're learning what will work best for the site. Properly amortizing our carbon will turn it from a self imposed limitation to a quantifiable, manageable asset.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Exactly, I think you nailed my line of thinking perfectly with your example on matching project flows for the greatest efficiency. I definitely don't want "my position" here to be misconstrued that I think machines are always right. But rather than they sometimes can be, and more importantly that if we permaculture folks want to drive change, we really should be leveraging their power - where possible and practical. That isn't everywhere, and it's probably not even in most places. But it shouldn't be used to attack people either - which I see far too often.

[@homesteadhaven6024]

We get into these debates regularly with visitors to our sustainable schoolhouse project/bnb because we tend to attract a lot of permaculture-lovers and engineers and we nerd out hard. We’re working to take an old schoolhouse off the grid and inevitably the conversation turns to what it took to install them, cost-benefit analysis, rehabilitating damages landscape and a geeky examination of energy usage and output. Sometimes We’ve had to employ a good deal of technology and bring in machinery to do things like dig out enormous trenches to lay a 9-Ton geothermal loop, outfit a flat roof in solar panels and dig out a twelve-foot ditch around the building to insulate and waterproof. When you’re rehabilitating a large century building and an abused landscape the use of machinery is inevitable but one has to stay focused on the end game which you outline so well. Now We’ve eliminated the tanker truck full of oil that came every three weeks to heat the building in winter, we’ve offset the geo’s pump usage with what the solar panels collect. Yes, it takes privilege and money to make these things happen but people need to be able and willing to forego a fancy car for a geothermal system in the first place so that we can see how this plays out. How will we know if we don’t try it in real time and study the data? Dogmatic thinking is a box you put yourself in. If you make hardcore rules for yourself, cool, but trying new things is how we develop new ways of doing things. When I think about all the people who come and stay and who get to learn about off-grid living, animal husbandry, permaculture growing, I see the potential ripple effects. There are SO many people who want a better quality of life, who want to simplify, who want to be more integrated with their landscape instead of a consumer of it. Last night’s guest was articulating that our attempt to get off the power grid is going to make it much more expensive for people on pensions to boil water for their tea as electricity providers jack their rates and yes, he’s right. For a time, there will be blow-back (just like your rehab after your pond build), but let’s get real people! Somebody has to give these things a go cause big industry and government tend to buckle at the bottom line. Our vision is to integrate a thermal mass and start exploring how these systems could power 4 homes in community. But we can’t do that in any reasonable timeline without bringing in big machines and moving some serious dirt. Ok, so that was a huge portion of my two cents, but your video brought up issues that we struggle with on the regular. This isn’t about perfection, it’s about progress. Thanks for another compelling video and discussion thread. Always awesome to be here!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Wow this is such an incredible response. It's also amazing when people of privilege can use THEIR money to help develop other people's lives who may not have it. That's really the name of the game with climate change and industrialization inequality. It's definitely something I want to get more involved with in the coming decade. I'm not rich by any means, but I suppose compared to others who will be most impacted by climate change, I am. I think the work you are doing is incredible, and I love when you share some of the things you have going on with the rest of the community. Have you ever thought of opening a patreon page? I would personally love to donate, and I'm sure others would be also.

[@homesteadhaven6024]

Canadian Permaculture Legacy thanks for appreciating my thoughts. No, I haven’t thought of starting a Patreon .... (you just recently nudged me to share our project on KZbin!! Hahaha) Our B&B guests have thus far been our biggest supporters and made it financially possible for us to expand our homestead and evolve our restoration/sustainability projects. We’re SO grateful to them and it’s where we’ve focused all our energy. I really appreciate your eagerness to be a supporter of our project. Each new video you post does exactly that!! Thanks, as always.

[@HerEcolife]

That was so we'll explained. I use my mini excavator for the big stuff and shovel and bare hands for the hard to reach places. I'm the only gardener here 5foot tall on 200 acres with a Veteran with health issues. So I use machinery but I make up for it with my creations and the carbon input. Look at the forest where a Skidder passes by. Yes the skidder damages alot.. On the other side, it turns the soil and old seeds from the seed bank that were there years before sprout and reforests with a very diversified forest. I have the proof of that here. It's amazing to see the growth. Your place is amazing. Happy I found your channel.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I checked out some of your videos this morning. You have a really nice place, great views on your homestead!

[@misibacsi11]

What a great conversation, I can totally get behind an oil to soil mind frame, especially when repairing heavily degraded open areas. But yeah, depending on context, managing excavation around existing tree roots, steep slopes, money as a barrier to access, and the like are good points to consider. I love the work around the water cup competition in India, it's massively inspiring. Your comments on timing are great points to remember in all this too.

[@getmorecoins]

As carbon based lifeforms in a carbon based society, this dilemma reminds me of the adage, "There's no ethical consumption under capitalism." The carbon spent by having an internet purity fight about who's the most permanent permaculturalist are probably better spent reading and learning.

[@debbiehenri345]

If you can get hold of the right books in the first place. When I first started looking into food forests, I bought a few books that were simply not informative enough, these based on enthusiastic reviews online, but were no good considering my location and aspect. KZbin does allow you to go from channel to channel to seek out lots of new ideas depending on what is of foremost importance in the mind of the channel owner, and combine them to suit your needs and location. This channel concerns mainly structural permaculture, to encourage you to think 'big picture' especially in a colder environment - what you would expect from an engineer (I'm married to one, so I know). Other channel presenters think primarily 'soil and soil production,' others show off extraordinary harvest yields of weird fruits & veg in tropical areas. Some just do a walkabout. Fine, if you live in Florida, South of England. Plus, a picture speaks a thousand words, more if those words are written in such a boring manner you're dropping off to sleep halfway through every page. (I never finished one of those books). Also, what if the interested party doesn't speak English and can't find the book in his/her own language? Last week I followed a plant propagation technique on a Spanish YT channel - even though I can't speak a word of Spanish. However, I could follow everything, just by watching.

[@miqf914]

Thanks for opening up the discussion. What people often forget is that we shouldn't be pitting ourselves against other permaculturists--or those who think differently--in search of Ideals and thereby lose the human (humane) side of permaculture. Is Human Permaculture (Sorry I don't know the term in English; it's "Permaculture Humaine" in French) a thing on your side of the Atlantic? Here, people are more familiar with, and perhaps drawn to, the land/farming side of the movement, not so aware or concerned with how we can use the principles to better our relations with one another, which in turn makes education and discussion ever so much more productive. As others have pointed oit and commented so eloquently on, in every design situation, we have a multitude of variables to take into account, and stubbornly locking into one path forward can have negative impacts we would never wish for or accept had we taken the time to hash out the ramifications of our choice. Sometimes you just have to dive in and do something or risk decision paralysis, as Sean has pointed out before. And finally, thank you for the information about ponds and methane. I had no idea.

[@AzumaRikimaru]

I've been into sustainable design ever since elementary when my 3rd grade teacher taught us about de-forestation and it's effect on the eco system, capitalism , etc. I ended up getting work in technology and then software design, and as I am getting older, I want to utilize my knowledge on technology/machines to automate the process. We know there will be advancements in technology for permaculture, hydro/aquaponics/etc

[@kcoker9189]

I don't know if you've read Sepp Holzer at all but I just barely found your channel and everything you teach absolutely mirrors everything I'm reading in his books now. I'm in Utah so I'm very excited to have found your channel to see someone growing fantastic things in a cold climate. So excited to keep learning and getting started on our own food forest here! Cheers!!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

He was one of my first inspirations, although I like him for different reasons now. I liked him at first because he was growing lemons in Austria. Now I realize that's a bit of a gimmick thing, and his true great teachings are contouring, oversowing and letting nature sort it out, and soil building with hugelbeds. Definitely a big inspiration of mine. I also like his attitude. He is a no nonsense guy, and has no patience for rainbow farming unicorn types. He doesn't even like to label his work as permaculture. I dunno, I like people who make you bring your A game in order to gain their respect. Makes me respect them more.

[@sparkywatts3072]

I live in rural community with an agricultural base. I don't think any of the local 3rd or 4th generation farmers would listen to me talk about permaculture. Then just the other day I spotted a post on our county Facebook page introducing a young couple who had just moved to our community and had an interest in starting a no till garden for farmers markets. Imagine asking a fourth-generation farmer to get rid of all his plows and such!

[@jameskniskern2261]

I have both. Machine dug swales and ponds. Hand dug drainage and small swales. Hugelkulture mounds, orchards, and such. Sometimes the site is such that running a machine, the correct size, accomplishes a job so fast, that I spend the rest of the time covering the soil with mulches to keep it stable. This is where we are now as a civilization. We will also soon be able to do these things with machines that are full electric, running on solar power. (Some machines are already running on biodiesel, so are carbon neutral.) Anyway, sometimes the backbone of a design needs to be build quickly and efficiently, and sometimes I can go slowly and as Sean does, sketch out the plan as I go. It all works.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Great comment. Right tool for the right job. I'm similar, machine dug pond, but so many hand dug micro ponds and swales.

[@cherylwhite1920]

Thanks for all your videos. We've planted lots of fruit trees because of your encouragement and continue to plant annual vegetables, too. We used a pick and then a shovel for tree planting, so a good workout!! All the best from convection-oven-Kansas!!!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Awesome! I manually water as much as possible, just for the workout. ❤️

[@mikemcelveen]

Great video. Thanks for the recommendation! Love seeing and hearing the benefits of ponds in permaculture.

[@annburge291]

The biggest concept that some permaculturists get wrong is that they get bogged in the garden and they forget about all the other systems such as political, cultural, communications, educational... I find it almost laughable that someone will question using machinery for building swales or build a pond but they will happily go in a car, use electricity for cooking, take a plane trip, heat their house by mechanical means... permaculture is all about transfer of energy. Back to swales: the discussion needs to be whether it is ideal if they are exactly on contour for maximum water absorption (but risk of mud slides if over saturated) or slightly off contour as in keyline design to zig zag the flow of water from valleys to ridges to valleys and creating ponds in the valleys but with natural flow watering systems. The problems with swale construction constraints are that sometimes wild life habitats and geological formations can be destroyed irreversibly. Ponds: sealed ponds for irrigation and fish systems (if there's enough plants it will be oxygenated. Look at the chinampas in México)and leaking ponds if one is trying to replenish underground water with Monsoon rains such as Central India. Permaculture has no set solutions. All solutions are aimed at earth care, people care and fair share. It's more than just a garden. Love your garden and I love how you invite discussion.... that's what starts the permaculture journey.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks for thos wonderful addition to the conversation

[@sweetbizil]

I think about this issue in a few different ways. In an ideal world, a viable solution to the various world crises is that connects deeply with nature and immerses themselves in their own personal spaces. Literally every single family would have a small, extremely diversified project/stead they would participate in. Diversified and localized flora and fauna would flourish and, hence, we as humans would as well. I don't think that the small projects/steads, such as what I envision, would require much tenchnology to accomplish the tasks necessary for survival of each community/group of humans. In the world we live in, which is far from ideal, I do think we need to meet the situation and the humans where they are at. We are so far removed from a sustainable or regenerative world that I think we shouldn't be dogmatic about not using machinery/outside carbon sources. As you say, the issues at hand require immediate and drastic action. Short of a global collapse/re-awakening of humanity to their destructive path being followed, we need to be willing to meet people where they are at in their consciousness around the future of the world. Basically, we need to ease people into the idea that the world is crumbling around us and that do something about it. If this means showing people great things can happen/are possible through use of machinery in the next few years, so be it. I think if we are being realistic though, then machinery does not have a place in the long term game plan.

[@banksarenotyourfriends]

Hey Broseph, I think it's important for us to make the distinction between Carbon and Fossilised Carbon - one is naturally part of the cycle that we all depend on to live, and the other isn't. Our problem as a species isn't in using Carbon, but in adding previously Fossilised Carbon back into the atmosphere, giving us the runaway greenhouse effect we're experiencing now. I'm with you on the pragmatism, and machines can give us the ability to do work that might otherwise be impossible, BUT (and a big but) no matter what Net Carbon figure you come out with at the end of your calculation, you will always be down on the figure for the amount of *Fossilised* Carbon left on Earth, as it gets released back into the Carbon Cycle - and the conditions that allowed it to fossilise in the first place obviously no longer exist. We can't do Carbon Storage and Sequestration at scale yet, so until we achieve that I think you need to think a little differently on this one. I'm not saying don't use machines and I'd be hypocritical if I was, but I'm not coming with you completely on your Carbon sequestration sums. I'm still your best friend though :P

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Very important distinction, thanks for making it. Burning fossilized carbon is indeed very different than using bio carbon. One thing I am excited for is the refossilization of the carbon, I think using magnesium and making magnesium carbonate. I remember reading an article that a Canadian startup has it down to about 2 months (from natural processes that can take millions of years). Super exciting stuff, so hopefully one day we can do something like this and get long term re lockup.

[@banksarenotyourfriends]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy that sounds awesome about the 'Canuckistani Carbon Storage', I hadn't heard about that startup before. Hopefully the reduced global emissions due to low economic activity as a result of CoViD has bought these CSS projects some time, and we can master these ideas before it's too late for humanity.

[@suzubee9602]

Thank you for this video I think its important to have these lifestyle available for different people, and highlight the pros and cons of each method or idea I personally wanna do the most i can with my hands but im cheap. The best method for you is the one you'll actually do though

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Absolutely!

[@bentimberfalling]

I'm starting to dig a small pond on my property up in northern michigan this weekend all I have is a shovel and high clay soil so things are gonna get interesting!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Make sure you check out edible acres latest videos on his pond build. He is doing it all by hand also, and it's massive!

[@jordwutts]

I have a large dugout that was dug for road building, then became used for watering cattle. there is no inlet or outlet. It is a large stagnant water source fed by the water table. It is home to ducks, geese at times and in the past swans have even visited. There is also currently Muskrat(s). I do have an aerator in it now keeping it somewhat oxygenated. Would it be beneficial to add a small feature like a circulated water fall to help keep the methane production down?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Very much so. It sounds fairly large, so it likely needs more O2. Will also keep down mosquitoes. Check kijiji or Craigslist for free stone, and just start collecting pieces. Could probably put something together for about 50 to 100 bucks if you are resourceful.

[@why6246]

I love reading the discussion this video generated! I think the overarching message is to have mindfulness of what we do in our daily lives. Something we need more of. Thank you!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is definitely something we need to do with every choice we make. At least understand the impact of that choice. So often we don't even know the consequences of our choices because they fall on somebody else's lap.

[@why6246]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I love that you're advocating for ppl to not only consider themselves but also others and the environment in the long run- so important esp now.

[@Christodophilus]

The problem I see with using machinery in already brittle environments, is the massive expenditure without a reliable return. Because these are key design elements being placed in a landscape, which may or may not be accumulating natural resources. I know people who spent thousands on building large swales, with machinery, then it didn't rain adequately for six years - ongoing. Whereas I built my swales by hand, which literally took years and I'm still going! Same climate. Same depletion of resources. Only I didn't have the massive outlay, for natural resources that weren't being placed in the landscape, to capture. So the point I want to bring to this discussion, is whether you live in a climate with a natural resource, deficit or surplus. There's a point which gets mentioned from time to time, especially in relation to capturing resources in arid climates - supposedly, all your rain comes in one day. Therefore, it's even more important to stop, slow and spread the water. In my over decade experience working with an arid climate though, the amount of evaporation, inevitably exceeds precipitation. Meaning, unless the water is stored underground, you will lose it to evaporation. Even if it's stored as a carbon mulch layer, inevitably, the larger climatic impact, controls the degree of evaporation. My swales have become more about reducing erosion, than capturing water, and I'm okay with that. It still accumulates natural resources, slowly over time. Plus, I didn't have to spend thousands to learn the limitation of holding resources, in my particular environment. However, if you live where there's still a moderately reliable amount of natural resources being placed into the system, it starts to make sense, to hasten the process of capturing resources, on a larger scale. You won't lose money on the expenditure, by mechanically speeding up the process. Because you have the resources being deposited, like clockwork.

[@billybones956]

Excellent points. There may be other situations where human labour could be more useful though. For example in rural areas and villages experimenting with permaculture design, especially in the developing world, machinery may have to be brought in from a longer distance away. So if you have 20 people who can do the same work a single digger can in a similar time frame then why use the digger? But I agree that wasn't the best solution for your pond or swales. The way I see it you had four options; dig it all by hand yourself, downscale everything and make them smaller, hire labourers to work by hand, or use machinery. Digging it yourself would, as you said, take far longer. Making the pond or swales smaller would lead to them benefiting the ecosystem less. Hiring others would carry a much larger monetary cost, and they would have to commute in every day and possibly generate more emissions than the digger, depending on how far away they were coming from, so overall it looks like machinery was the most sensible solution.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

For sure, that definitely describes the "right tool for the right job". I would actually say that we should use shovels and human labour where it makes sense and is done ethically. The impotus for this video came from seeing permaculturists slam some people for using machinery and likely pushing someone away from the movement in doing so (and being wrong about it also - in the given context). I definitely think machines have their place when practical. But at the same time, I don't ever mean to come across that they are always the correct solution. Definitely not :)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Absolutely. This was the genesis for this video. I have seen people get a lot of negativity for using machines, and likely get turned away from our movement. I also want to make it clear that this video was not intended to say that using machines is correct and anyone else is wrong. But rather that persecuting someone for using them is wrong, especially when their use may actually be a net benefit. Obviously some people and places will not have access to them, but they are not evil or bad, when being used for good purposes. I just really hope that is how this comes across.

[@brianhankyle8226]

Great video. It really has me thinking about the back acre of my property which is a forest but currently has about 3-4 inches of water sitting in. I never considered methane production before. What steps could I take to reduce standing water?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Completely depends on grading. Are there any low areas whatsoever past them? Likely yes, unless you live in Salt Lake City. Pull up your cities contour map (can likely Google this). You just need to cut in a relief in the lowest point of your land. Can do a French drain. Just be aware that doing so permanently changes the water table there. The alternative is to add more soaking and slurping. Plant water hungry plants in the lower areas, such as cranberries, eldeberries, willow, etc.

[@brianhankyle8226]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy changing the water table concerns me. I am on a well, as are my neighbours. We were running low on water during the drought last summer. When it is a wet year my sump pump runs non stop. Tricky balance here. I don’t want to flood any basements or cases someone’s well to run dry.

[@kristinraabe6887]

Im a permie newbie and have no problem using equipment for the initial setup. Im all about working smarter not harder and plant more work less. I am building a house so the equipment is accessible and available and Im taking advantage of it while it is on site. Im still going through your content to find info about swales and berms. Found a few, still digging. Lol💜🌎✌

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Did you find the swale guides? I have a bunch. Also search for water guides.

[@ecocentrichomestead6783]

Coming from a carbon sequestration POV, the calculation has to do with net carbon footprint. On my property, there can be no increase in carbon sequestration (It's a forest and bog). The goal, therefore, is to change to a food producing landscape without reducing the carbon sink. Said food landscape has to be long lasting with minimal external inputs. I am just another guide of nature, guiding the land to evolve to a different set of plants. In degraded areas or areas of low plant diversity, fast conversation is a good idea.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's a good point. And if a forest is mostly done sequestering its carbon (large trees), then some selective thinning and hard storage of that carbon (long lasting furniture, biochar, etc.) Can open up glades and allow for the planting of saplings to push sequestration further. But it must be done in a conscious and responsible manner.

[@ecocentrichomestead6783]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy yeah, I tried making long lasting furniture. It didn't sell here. However, I would still like to have a bandsaw that can mill lumber. Currently, I select the old/sick/dead/damaged trees for firewood and have a chipper to make mulch from branches.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah, that is a big hurdle, not just the equipment but also the expertise.

[@joelwatson4867]

Love it, it's like the argument that we shouldn't use wicking beds/drip irrigation, but if you have a small water catchment zone, with limited space, no run off going to your garden, and this means the difference between thriving nature and an unreliable system, then lets do it.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Exactly. Right tool, right place. We don't all need to reject technology to get there. If it makes sense and does more good than harm, (and that assessment comes from a place of knowledge and not apathy/laziness), then we should be leveraging technology to build resilient systems. The situation you describe can often also be temporary also. A little water and drip irrigation to get systems established, then the shade starts reducing evaporation and the transpiration starts building water cycles and a few decades later, you may find your water requirements for integrated gardens (with the tree based systems) can go down to nearly zero.

[@brucedownunda7054]

Subjective. If you NOT considering the "whole" you're simply chasing your tail.

[@suzannesumner773]

We have a natural (big) pond on our property. The pond has many ducks, frogs, and even a muskrat. Would this pond still create methane or would the movement of these critters eliminate this?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It definitely still produces methane. Now keep in mind, we do need natural methane cycle, it's just that we make so much of it as humans. Ways to help mitigate this would be lots of surface plants, especially stuff like azolla / duckweed, etc. If you wanted an engineered solution, the ideal is a large windmill powered fountain. These can be around $2000.

[@twominutefoodforest165]

What do you think about that fig being so close to the pond? I've read that figs can die if their roots hit a permanently wet layer, but I've never tried it myself. If you posted an update on growing near your standing water I would greatly appreciate it.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Because the pond is lined, the terrestrial area around the pond is actually quite dry. I think it should be okay, but we'll see over the next year or so!

[@NashvilleMonkey1000]

Unfortunately the person using shovels ate only Big Mac's for human fuel. and the carbon cost of 3 years of big mac's is 4 tons, wups!

[@cdoane1110]

Thanks you for this video. Its crucial for us to us technology to work our way to a sustainable planet. Its also critical to remember we are ALL of us in this together.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Agree so much with this.

[@allisonwalton7667]

While considering your carbon footprint and offset, just wondering if you had to remove any established trees on your property to improve sun exposure? I struggle with this, I feel guilty removing native trees on my mostly wooded lot to put in small fruit trees and shrubs. Im just curious what your thoughts are on this.....love this channel btw. Even with over a decade of experience, I have learned a lot from you so thanks!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I have removed some cedar yes. Not a lot, because I actually want some for early season nesting of birds, and home for cedar waxwings - but we have SO MUCH around here that I could remove another 100 trees and not really impact them. I've also removed some ash trees that were infected with EAB, and burned them for biochar. Remember, any good forest management system requires the cutting down of trees. Often cutting down some trees will restore light which can be used to grow many more trees. A fully mature forest is done sequestering carbon. However if we can remove trees in a controlled manner (not a clearcut, but rather the creation of micro pockets, glades) then we can store the carbon in various ways (furniture, posts, charcoal), and then sequester more in the new trees we grow. We can also create a flush of abundance of the herbaceous layer with all the new light, and that brings in all new insects and birds if planted out with natives. Cutting down trees is a crucial part of permaculture - one that is often completely misunderstood. Good forest stewardship necessitates the cutting down of trees.

[@timroberts6989]

Odd. Here in Australia I havent met single permaculturalist ever who wouldn't use a bulldozer to do earthworks (if they needed one, not in a suburban back yard). Everyone just accepts that you use the fossil fuels to build the post fossil fuel future with, and that's a lot better use for them than making automatic banana peelers out of plastic.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Lol!

[@debbiehenri345]

To be honest, I don't mind how permaculturists set up their garden in the first place, as long as they stay 'true' to the ideal afterwards. I'm not advocating hundreds of tons of cement, obviously, but as long as people are as minimal as possible with their machinery usage I see no problem. For my part, I'm extremist to the degree that the only machine in use in my garden is the chainsaw (once/twice a year to cut up any large trees that fall on our fences, or take down the occasional frosted Eucalyptus that I have a thing about growing now and again). From the day I moved onto my property, I could see it would be impossible to use a lawnmower anywhere. The grass was already growing long and full of frogs, toads, newts and butterflies. How could I justify putting them at risk? Also, my soil is very stony and there are moles everywhere - which would end up costing a fortune in new mower parts. However, that suited me well; I used to be a professional gardener and now hate mowing with a vengeance. I can spend that 'mowing' time doing more enjoyable things, and a long sward full of wildlife is an endless education for children and adults alike. My son has been frightened silly by all sorts of bug-eyed monsters on our property since the age of 7. The other good thing about leaving grass be is the number of new wild flowers that suddenly appear. Over the past 17 years, Mother Nature has introduced at least 1-2 new species per year into the grassed areas (Wood Sorrel, Bluebells, Wood Anemone, Daisy, White Ptarmica, a yellow Turkscap Lily, Wild Garlic, several vetches, Gorse, Hartstongue Ferns, and the wonderful Pig Nut - to name but a few). The same is true for fungi species - including the Griselle, Deceivers, recently the Puffball, and a lot of others I can't identify yet. I'd like a pond, but it would mean big machines trundling too near beloved plants now. You know what workmen are like? They can't see anything past their target and I'll have flattened walnut trees, etc. My neighbour has a large pond, that is refreshed by the neighbouring stream, so I'm okay with that one being in the area. I'm not the sort of person who really 'needs' to have 'my own' pond. What I have done is started to make a feature of a spring that has popped up in my garden over the last few years. It's not given more than a few minutes of my time on a weekly basis; I have a lot of other things to do. Thankfully, as it runs quite briskly, there will be little issue with methane. Methane is an issue with a running stream next to my property. Despite making very regular checks to remove leaves and branches, they soon return and quickly start to stink terribly of methane. It really makes me think of just how bad an issue this must be in unchecked streams, rivers and lakes all over the world. While I accept that what any of us who are conscious of the problem do is but a drop in the ocean, I still consider it a worthwhile effort to give nature a helping hand.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

A wonderful comment. Just a clarification on the methane thing - everything you mention is correct, the only one thing is that methane itself is actually odorless. What you are smelling is likely Hydrogen Sulphate, which often accompanies methane in anaerobic decomposition. So even though you are not actually smelling the methane itself, it still actually is likely a good indicator that methane is being produced. I just wanted to point that out incase someone read that entire wonderful comment and got stuck on the methane thing. And what a wonderful comment it was. I love the approach of letting the grasses grow wild and seeing what nature puts into it each year, then celebrating those plants after we learn about them. Humankind really has this messed up relationship with nature, where anything that isn't grass is foreign and bad. It's crazy how in just a handful of generations we've completely lost our way. ("Handful" in relation to the total number of generations of all humans. Even the past 1000 years is just a small handful).

[@doinacampean9132]

(comic relief): Terminator as a documentary - the machines *are* killing us! (but not in the way we thought) - same as, you know, Don't Look Up, with actors we know and love...

[@darongw]

I use machines at time but I always try to ask the question is the machine just helping me get going or am I going to be reliant on it moving forward? I don't mind using machines up front but I try to make sure I'm setting up my systems so they don't rely on machines moving forward. Though I don't mind small mechanical systems like pumps, solar systems, etc. Though I try to make sure they last as long as possible and I look for used parts when possible.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Good approach.

[@lesliekendall2206]

Just sounds to me like people worry too much.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

One thing I've definitely discovered while doing this youtube thing is that it doesn't matter what you post, someone will be completely against it and will put out a nasty comment. You could tell people that you think its a good idea to be nice to eachother, and someone will make a comment about how you are an idiot because some people don't deserve niceness (murderers, rapists, etc). So I've become immune to that side of the internet. I just assume that no matter what content I produce, someone will say its bad.

[@shawnpnw6523]

S+ rank upload my guy (in my opinion)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Cheers

[@Pants13]

A lot of this is based solely on carbon measurements not even touching on degradation of land, compaction of soil, addition of expensive and dangerous equipment, access to equipment rentals, and use of the initial fuel, and wear put on a vehicle. More damage is done using machinery than just carbon output.

[@fredhenderson945]

Good points. Great to listen to.

[@dragonflybonsaigardens]

So I know this is off topic but I’m really noticing your wealth of knowledge on permaculture! I have an urban food forest I’m starting at the back side of my property. Behind my property is a huge drain culvert and there’s a big hill sloping down towards side walk. What would you do to stop and hold that water from just sliding down the hill and onto the sidewalk?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Whst is the source of the water? Is it clean? Rainwater on grass etc? Or dirty (rainwater on asphalt, etc). If it is dirty, you could plant something like reeds or native cattails and help filter it on the way to the culvert. If its clean, you could try to capture it via a swale dug sliggggghtly downhill (like 1 degree downslope), and dig a small pond? Or you can just put a level swale in and try to hold it as long as possible. I have a few swale videos, make sure to check them out. kzbin.info/www/bejne/onKufYijpKaGr8U

[@dragonflybonsaigardens]

Thank you so much for answering questions. You really made a lot of things click for me I appreciate it and your a great teacher!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks Addison, very kind

[@mordyfisher4269]

At what depth do you think the bog principle becomes irrelevant? There is a small swamp in the valleye of my property with a very narrow drainage point. I was planning on creating a lake but still i am unsure of the consequences in terms of lost carbon sequestration. With one load of clay, the swamp would probably rise 7 or 8 feet deep and 100 foot square. 1 estimated it would take about 15 loads to get me to twenty feet deep and 250 foot square

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Deoth only kind of comes into play. Surfact area and tumbling are much more important. From a previous reply to a PM on reddit to someone else: Wetlands produce roughly 30% of global methane production, they are significant players. The methane produced by a wetland depends on a few factors. Obviously lack of inflow is the biggest, as stagnant water will not have much oxygen from tumbling. Another huge factor is surface area. A shallow large wetland will produce less methane than the same volume of water but in a deep and small surface area. This is for obvious reasons, gas exchange at the surface, and penetration depth of the gases. Then vegetation plays a big role. Some vegetation has been shown to actually put excess oxygen INTO the water, but vegetation that crusts on the surface and forms a mat can prevent that surface water gas exchange. Then lastly is sunlight. The more sunlight that gets in, the hotter and more energy the water has, the more active the bacteria will be, the more methane that will be produced. So the best way to mitigate methane generation in a pond is, number one, pumps and waterfalls. Tons and tons of tumbling and splashing. Second, lots of vegetation, but specifically vegetation whose shape allows gases to still exchange. Ideally nothing that mats. Then as much surface area as possible. If you have tumbling for oxygen, then depth can be a good thing (holding more oxygen in the water due to pressure and lower temperature, but you need good tumbling an mixing to take advantage of it, or the deepest parts will be the most O2 depleted (due to most stagnation there). So lots of factors at play. But moving cycling water is the best and most reliable way to go, ideally taking suction from one end of the pond and discharging it at the opposite end, to create a pond wide flow. This can be most easily done with a high and low area in the same vicinity. For example, the top of the waterfalls at the west end of the pond, the water flows west to east, an overflow waterfall at the east end. The overflow river then comes back towards the west and deposits in a pump vault at the west end. The pumps then pump the water just uphill west to west. I hope that is clear? This maximizes a few things... size of pump required, length of piping required, etc. It does however also maximize the long winding overflow river which can be costly, depending on materials.

[@mordyfisher4269]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacyvery interesting and kind of counter intuitive... There are a couple lakes i go camping at that have no river or stream are very deep and are crystal clear. I always attributed the water clarity to depth and assumed it was oxygen rich water. Also these lake do have this very tall skiny seaweed that grows more then 20 feet long... I would not be putting a pump into this lake, atleast in the foreseeable future and there is very little flow. My best bet i guess is going to be damming it up in stages and planting the appropriate aquatic plants.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Are they cold? Typically crystal clear water has more to do with temperature than anything else.

[@mordyfisher4269]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy not glaciel cold but they do not have any warm shallow bays to speak of... Would creating a pond like this that stays cold reduce methane production?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah, colder ponds won't release much methane due to low biological activity. Outside of something weird like a direct methane deposit vent, your pond will be pretty dormant. It will depend on how warm it gets in the summer. If it stays cool even in the summer then I definitely wouldn't worry much about it.

[@sangha1486]

I approve of this message!!!

[@Wingydingy01]

around 6:20 is that sumac behind you?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yes that is my stagorhn sumac coppice system.

[@Wingydingy01]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy oh nice! I googled "sumac coppice" and your video showed up ;)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Haha

[@raincoast9010]

I was going to poke fun at you for using the excavator but humor does not come across well in text especially from a stranger. I fully agree that we should use machines when they take a project forward in such a big leap. Nice job on the pond and i like the fish too. The green energy advocates are the biggest hypocrites as the manufacture of those components use among the most toxic industrial processes known.

[@krisyallowega5487]

There is a place for ponds and they are vital to the ecosystem but I am guessing not in the permaculture realm?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Many many permaculture setups have ponds. Nothing about permaculture precludes them. Increased biodiversity and habitat lines up with permaculture in every way.

[@krisyallowega5487]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I was too subtle with my question...would the permaculture aficionados be better off without a pond if they did not want to use a liner & pump? Utilize a swale maybe? Something that will hold the water for a period of time and not simply wash everything away.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I would still rather people build swales and ponds that don't have recirculation than to not build anything at all at the fear of methane generation. In the end the methane contribution isn't negligible, but the benefit of habitat and fertily that they bring (which then causes CO2 sequesteration) far outweighs it in my opinion. Water is the source of all life, its just so important.

[@markj6442]

Those tools took carbon to make, transport, transport workers to and from work to assemble it. Heavy equipment can reduce the overall time people affect the environment assuming the alterations are properly done like this property.

[@markj6442]

You can have stagnant water with no problems the "permaculturists" just charge and arm and leg to know what stones etc to use as they pretend to care

[@Raherin]

Just curious, how do those fish survive in the winter? Do you take them out or perhaps they survive if the pond doesn't completely freeze? My dad had a pond that he put Pikes in, and they ended up surviving through winters and even procreating. Thank you for the informative video, I always love them.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Indeed, they have no problem surviving as long as the pond is about 3 feet or deeper. My pond has 6 foot sections, so they will have no problem. I just need to keep a hole in the ice so that gases can be exchanged (their CO2 and fresh O2)

[@Raherin]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Sorry for the late reply... That's useful info! I don't remember my dad leaving holes in the ice, but the pond he made was pretty massive with lots of grass and bushes, so I'm sure that allowed air to flow. A bit further down stream and there was an enormous beaver damn area.. basically it made a giant lake (muddy lake) in the forest on the property. I used to go there and watch beavers and great herrings and ducks.. I miss that property! Thanks again for your answer :)

[@zianitori1565]

I'm not huge on arguments like this, but do you think there's an interesting argument to be made about generating a demand for industrial machinery being bad due to the creation of them being dependent on resource intensive and ecologically devastating extractivism? I'd imagine that wrt material throughput it'd come out to be a net negative for the planet unless every job that machine was utilized for was setting up regenerative ecosystems. I know degrowth people make compelling arguments against nuclear power and some solar technologies with this focus on material throughput so I was wondering about your perspective on this

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

For sure. I personally wish we could have advanced as a civilization more in tune with nature, even if that meant slower progress. I think it would have been healthier for us and the planet. The thing is though, it's just not how it went, and it's not how it's going. It's nice to think of how our society and planet would be if we never invented machines (it wouldn't be all good, but I probably would be the most willing to make that trade off - many wouldn't but I would be happy being in a hunter/gatherer society more myself). I'm not sure it's useful other than as a dream or thought excercise though. From a pragmatic standpoint, they are here, and that industry exists, and the permaculturist addition to it by say, purchasing or renting a mini-ex and digging a swale, it's not even a noticeable fraction of a percent. It's like a grain of sand out of all the sand on a beach. All I was trying to say here is that, well, this is where we are, so if we truly want to drive massive change, we should try to leverage our current tech to get there while we have it. Making coal oil and gas disappear (or to have never existed) is a nice thought, but it's about as useful as that. Just a thought. Using say 36.4 billion tons of CO2 in the entire Coal Oil Gas industry, but then permaculturists changing that number to 36.40001 and installing massive ecosystems, swales and ponds on depleted lands - that's a worthwhile pursuit. That's kind of all I was saying here.

[@zianitori1565]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Yeah absolutely, I generally don't like arguments that come from a perspective of change through changing *only* consumer demand so I don't think it's an argument I'd make personally, I just think it's good practice to pay attention to exactly how much goes into a lot of the things we see as neutral tools and how much it costs in terms of material throughput to continue producing those tools.

[@dragonflybonsaigardens]

So before I found your channel I was kind of lost in the vast world of permaculture. I stumbled upon a technique where they dig one meter deep hole and fill with plant debris and then plant trees around the whole. What’s your opinion on this method? I’m wanting to know cuz I already did it in my backyard, I’m just not sure it’s working

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I believe this is called Zai? I think it's good for where it is used, total and complete deserts. It helps get nutrient down deeper into the sub soils faster and they also function as "deepwells" for water. However I wouldn't do it in fertile lands for a few reasons. 1) more root damage and disturbance 2) deepwells can actually depress the water table of surrounding lands 3) on fertile soils, there is no need to sacrifice those above two things for fertility depth, because there already likely is fertility deep down. I think often we all think we have depleted dead soils, but even out most dead soils aren't anything like where Zais are used. Great tech for Geoff Lawton in Jordan, or somewhere in Somalia. But in US and Europe (outside of say Nevada and Arizona deserts) then just use compost and mulch and chop and drop.

[@dragonflybonsaigardens]

I’m not sure what it’s called but I heard like the roots are supposed to grow into the hole and it stores water for them? Not sure. I live in North Carolina zone 7b what would you do with the meter deep hole to make sure it isn’t a problem in future, and doesn’t produce methane? Where I live we have hot 100 degree long summers and short mild winters.

[@dragonflybonsaigardens]

Thanks again for your help I almost got out of permaculture but you sparked my interest again

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It won't produce methane unless the water sits in there and cannot get out. This isn't a concrete filled hole right? If not the the water will just eventually sink into the soil. If it isn't, after like a week, then you are at your ground table level. If so, then fill in the hole with dirt.

[@mikkeljylland9153]

Stones or logs between grass and beds is not practical in my experience. Yours look fine, but how do you prevent tall grass on the edge? (spreading seeds to the beds).

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I edge it every year. You are correct though, these are set up this way because my wife likes the look, and it's small enough area that it is manageable. I talk about my other solutions in my videos called "grass in the garden". My favorite is a border of plants like comfrey.

[@jaysimmons3364]

I am not into permaculture to "save" the earth. I will use machines and power tools as needed. People can say what they want but I could care less about using "carbon". But... I do love nature and I will do what I can to not use the worst of technology to accomplish something if the costs of using it is to high.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Indeed, I actually agree 100%

[@tylerehrlich1471]

Man, I can't agree more that a majority of ponds are half-done and just left to turn to methane bogs. Water has got to be breathing! I'm living on a property right now where the landowner captures a live creek to feed into a huge pond. What does that pond do? Nothing. It's dead water, too hot for fish, muggy and non-aerated. I guess it looks nice, or something. Your pond with air and nutrient capture is a whole different thing! (plus I'm sure you didn't use dynamite to make your pond, as was the pond I'm living next to at the moment. Get me outta here!)

[@lizardgeek1658]

We are at a point where we have amazing technology that we can make huge positive impacts on the environment but we use it to build more McDonalds.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

And we do that because that's where the money is. We need to prioritize supporting organic or beyond organic farmers and stop buying crap food that kills us. Companies will follow where the money leads them. We need more people to wake up and realize the junk they are putting in their body and choose to live a healthier life. It will take time. Generations even. But hopefully we will get there

[@lizardgeek1658]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Correct. Capitalism isn't the problem its how people are voting with their dollar. Its said that people want change but wont change themselves. Im trying ive only been interested in being self sufficient the last couple years.

[@mkuc6951]

Man you've gotta be nuts to hand dig a massive pond. Anyone who's suggesting it hasn't even dug a hole, let alone a pond on their life.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I hand dug a 70 foot by 20 foot by 3 foot pond two years ago and I agree. Lol.

[@inspetordopequidegoias8203]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy - That's amazing. Do you have videos doing it? I checked your videos and I couldn't find them. I'd love to watch that.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Unfortunately nope, this was a VERY messy job, and I just put my head down and got it done.

[@luckyhomestead]

Oh, first permaculturist with brains in a right place. :) That's something new :)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Haha, I feel that

[@Rapto01R]

Hello! Im Zoltan from Hungary. In my opinion, the only question is: "When you have to leave this world, is the world better because of your actions, or worse?" I live my life with this in my mind. If you put more carbon in the soil, or give knowledge to people, who want to see your way of life, or just give more love then sadness, then you a net positive to the whole system. Doesn't matter, if you work with big machines, or you not, and loose a lot of carbon, because your system is not ready, years later, both working to help the planet. Both good. We are on the same page. Everybody should be on the same page.. "If it is not good for the Earth or for the living things, then i don't do it."

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is a great philosophy.

[@cadaverthehacker]

I agree

[@sharonagoren6751]

Except for the fact that you still eat meat I am with you 100%. Thanks for doing the math. I get to similar conclusions following intuition lol or common sense. maybe.

[@juliehorney995]

When earth is one's god, you will lose sight of what the created, empowered by a Creator can do. It can be glorious! It's not a debate of methodology but of world view. The two are diametrically opposed.

[@denisebishop9276]

If we are on a time crunch then there is nothing wrong with trying to quickly permaculturize our planet. If we are to cut out all carbon we would be walking around with rags on. Most of our clothing is made from oil products and people are wasteful when it comes to reducing reusing and recycling to help our planet. As long as we are making an educating, well informed decision to weigh the pros and cons of our doings to help our planet then are we not permaculture stewards? If someone is to dig a pond which takes years only to fail. Was it worth it? I think not. But if we quickly make the hole and put a liner in, planting improves the ground areas with more biodiversity we not only improved the insect life, the bird life and so on goes the food chain. Didn't we do something to improve the niche of the planet? You've created more surface area to sequester the carbon which feeds itself and all living creatures that live there. I think you're right on track sir. Keep up the good work!

[@myronplatte8354]

The permaculture spectrum of thought and philosophy can't be mapped out as a line, more like a tesseract, and you are definitely not on the most "pragmatic" end, just sayin'. :grin: I would put myself in the "purist" box if I had to, not that I don't like big machinery (I do) but that I don't water, don't weed, am wary of pruning in general, plant everything I can from seed, embrace "invasives" as the very most useful plants I have access to, and favour anything that requires no work after establishment except harvest.

[@NashvilleMonkey1000]

A machine runs for an hour or two, but the earthworks always hold the materials. the funny thing about the pandemic is that everyone discovered that all the oil wells in the world have no off switch! So fuel is super-cheap because they can't stop it from coming out of the ground. So removing the use of it by civilization reveals the magnitude of the natural disaster that is the fuel supply~

[@ooosh420]

Going to have to agree and somewhat disagree. Definitely agree you should use them but would it not be better to meet in the middle (of the spectrum you describe) and just use/utilise whats available as opposed to forcing certain practices? Not utilising materials already available e.g machinary is against the principle - integrate rather than segregate. All the energy, materials, carbon that has gone into making said machinary is wasted and therefore again goes against permaculture. There is no such thing as waste, just a misuse of resources. Also, while it is "scientific" to argue things using carbon, carbon sequestion ect as a measure, it's a bit blinded/reductionist to base anything solely on that aspect. I just find it amusing when this is focused upon as it does not apply to the social aspects or justice for indigenous peoples, other parts of permaculture, therefore is somewhat irrelevant to the bigger picture. Which is what we should all be trying to contribute towards and achieve. Most "permaculturists" are land owners themselves and so are privilaged by default. Private land ownership is again, against the bigger picture of what permaculture is supposed to be. Its supposed to be for the inclusion and benifit of everyone not tucked away on private land. So again its a bit rich for anyone to be making statements about who's doing what right or wrong when most aren't doing it in the first place.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I mean this with all due respect, but what does choosing to use an excavator or an shovel to build a swale have to do with indigenous peoples? I don't mean that in an insulting way, I just don't see the connection you are trying to make. Could you elaborate?

[@ooosh420]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy None taken dude, sall goodman 😋. The short answer is everything and for some people, nothing. Long answer is, there is a giant misunderstanding/misconception that permaculture is (somehow) solely about ecology, agriculture, carbon sequestion, biodynamics, swales, herb spirals, environmental activism and protection and so on. That all only comes under the first ethic - Earthcare. And so because of this, what is very prevelant in the 'community' is a bunch of private land owners, trying to live self-sufficently and then calling it permaculture. It's not that they are wrong, and please don't misunderstand me, its good but it's not really permaculture. There are 2 other ethics and a whole global application that seems to be a miss from alot of the communities knowledge of what permaculture actually is or even the fact that it is formed from observing indigenous science and knowledge in action, then attempted to be reiterated into the white mans world. Social justice, equality, equity, rights, returning of stolen/confiscated lands, fixing inequality, racism, sexism, looking after one another... and above all, doing whats right and being self-responsible. Permaculture teaches us how to reconnect with our own indigenous nature as part of the natural world, just like we once were and indigenious peoples of the world currently are. So again its a bit rich for anyone to be making statements about who's doing what right or wrong when most aren't doing it in the first place. That's why it has everything to do with it and for some people, nothing.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Okay I see what you are saying, and I completely agree with everything that you said, in a general sense. I do think you may have misunderstood what I am saying permacuturists get wrong, and it's probably my fault for how I presented it. I wasn't so much saying that it's wrong to use shovels, and it's right to use machines. I'm saying that it's wrong to attack people for using machines, because they can often do more good than harm, AND that often the refusal to use pumps (for example) can create a wetland that actually does more damage to the environment than it does help it. They can make methane generating wetlands, which already contribute 30% of global methane emissions. So we get this weird thing where self righteous people are attacking people for actually doing the correct thing, environmentally speaking. That being said, I do agree with you about how permaculture is bigger than just what do I do with my land? That ethics and fair share are incredibly important aspects. I also think climate change discussions often miss this also, and that equality is a very important part of our needed path forward.

[@ooosh420]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy nah I'm probably more at fault haha I was a bit preoccupied and stuck in previous conversations I've been having. Just the big misunderstanding of perm being solely about gardening... Neglecting/no idea/no want of everything else perm can accomplish. Anyway, yes completely agree with everything you have said. Attacking people for use of machines is really rather silly. Especially when as you explain, it can speed up processes that otherwise fail because they take too long to complete otherwise. We should only encourage any application of permaculture and the people doing it. We all also need to be willing to try different approaches, so can easily see why some would feel challenged when exposed to things they don't agree with. But that doesn't justify attacking others for it.

[@doinacampean9132]

Carbon is evil? :) All life is carbon based :) Salts containing carbon are called organic! :)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

True! Salt is also made up of toxic chlorine and we can eat it no problem. Chemistry is funny. For oxygen, not enough and we suffocate, too much and we hallucinate. Biochemistry is funny. For carbon, I did a lengthy video recently specifically trying to dispell some of the myths and misinformation out there on the topic.