What REALLY Happened When THE JOKER DIED in Batman Beyond! | The Vanishing Point

[@R_eagan]

Watchtower Database: What really happened when the Joker died? Me: He died.

[@Crrrow]

Wrong, He emptied his Bowels, THEN he died, Even in death he got the last laugh.

[@RadinV1]

Smart ass.

[@RadinV1]

@@adonis7626 unoriginal.

[@mexicanbatman8157]

Another one bites the dust

[@Anti-HyperLink]

Lack of breath.

[@TheComixkid2099]

Your idea that Harley was sent to infiltrate Joker's evil plan by Amanda Waller is a game-changer. I love this so much.

[@jturner2577]

Same, although I think she replased during it.

[@foldabotZ]

I'd imagine the internal anguish and conflict she had during the entire time "converting" Tim Drake and it's why she totally left behind the Supervillain life. It can also explain why she's upset with the Dee Dee twins being Jokerz.

[@jimbenzo]

Amanda was trying to create a Batman, who’s to say she didn’t realize the duality of the two and wasn’t trying to create a Joker to foil Him?

[@williampalmer9828]

She actually did.... Dont sleep on Margo. She's smart.

[@driveasandwich6734]

@@williampalmer9828 Who's Margo

[@andrewquick4176]

You do know you’re basically The Question Of this universe, right?

[@unchallengedmediocrity7886]

There WAS a magic bullet!

[@phatmantv]

In this timeline a cartoon does better @ the box office than a live action X-Man/Shazam! Movie.... And Lex Luther is orange w/ a bad wig playing potus. SAD!

[@chrishess5526]

@@unchallengedmediocrity7886 It was forged by Illuminati Mystics to prevent us from learning the truth.

[@RadinV1]

Conspiracy,singular

[@Anti-HyperLink]

@@phatmantv A while ago people would compare Bush to Luthor. Why us he now your boogeyman?

[@ToonamiT0M]

It depends on the retcon. When done well and for the sake of a good story, retcons can be acceptable. The best retcons are the type that Geoff Johns does. He makes changes within the existing canon to give past events new meaning or context without changing the actual events.

[@Naruku2121]

Yeah like well minor spoilers to Doomsday Clock. How he basically rexplained how all of DC's continuity works while taking in the various reboots.

[@rileygallagher5484]

Naruku2121 that was amazingly awesome

[@Anti-HyperLink]

@@Naruku2121 You didn't even say anything that would be a spoiler.

[@mangodango1733]

I've been digging the young justice takes on older material

[@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive]

Geoff Johns is the worst.

[@everybodylovesgav]

Fun fact , in the Batman Beyond episode Joyride , the Jokerz gang bring a new recruit to a secluded cave for initiation and very briefly inside the cave you see a body , the body is that of the joker .

[@cherishporter5314]

Or could be a killed recruit who dressed up as the joker and got killed for some particular reason most likely for not passing the test yo be part of the gang that's possibly what that skeleton is in the cave.

[@everybodylovesgav]

@@cherishporter5314 Awww dont ruin my fun XD , and i believe in the directors commentary of that episode they mentioned it .

[@TheAaronChand]

@@cherishporter5314 I've seen the Skeleton in the Batman Beyond Episode Joyride it could have been the Orginal Jokers Skeleton because of the grinning look fixated on the skeleton. And the small patch of purple cloth. That the Joker wore. Plus Barbara mentioned that they buried the Joker on the grounds of the orginal Arkham Asylum. In Return of The Joker. So years later the site of Arkham could have been just Abandon site. And maybe the The 1st ever Jokerz gang that was founded dug up the body and found it was the Orginal Joker Body and made the site its hazing site. For new pledges.

[@Bowiiihowdy]

​@TheAaronChand there was a never animated scene of old bruce going thru the ruins of arkham finding the joker still strung up corpse

[@MahNamJeff]

@@Bowiiihowdy There was a planned scene for it that never got to the finished film however, the scene was adapted into the comic tie in for the film.

[@tylersaez4095]

If Harley was on a Suicide Squad mission during the flashback why would she and by extension Amanda Waller let the Joker get away with torturing Tim? Why would Waller or Harley not tip off Batman?

[@tylersaez4095]

@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 I guess but I feel like Waller still would have told him. Also I just realized something. Why didn't Batman or Batgirl get Nightwing or the Justice League to help in the search for Robin. Superman or Martian Manhunter probably would have been able to find him easily. I know Bruce is a loner and all but you'd think after the first week he'd get more help.

[@tylersaez4095]

@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Yeah it's always bugged me that Nightwing wasn't there and that we really don't know what happened to him beyond "He left for his own city".

[@kimeraclan3135]

@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Waller stopped Luthor from becoming Robo-God and tried to stop Eiling from nuking an island in the Pacific. She's shady, but not a full-blown monster!

[@Stown4life]

because its Thursday

[@jturner2577]

One theory I have is the Joker found Harley's earpiece, wire or other commuincation device and destroyed it leaving Waller Unaware of the True Horror Tim was being put through. And Harley had a mental relapse. Edit: The relapse happened because the Joker sweet talked her into the idea of having a child together that doing so would truly make everything better, playing into her delusional belief that the Joker loves her and insecurities. And to insure she wouldn't turn against him, he either left her in the dark of the true extent of the torture/experiments or when asked downplayed it insuring her compliance.

[@stephanberger3476]

The Crisis on Infinite Earths did a good retcon for Jason Todd!

[@FredMaverik]

@@BillyJamesVA can you guys remind us?

[@driveasandwich6734]

@@BillyJamesVA I don't think that really retconned things like him being a villain in Batman and Robin

[@jturner2577]

The Cadmus Retcon is one of my favorite DCAU Retcons.

[@foreverkent2225]

The kinds of retcons that are fun are the ones that don’t change established events, but just give them context by logically connecting them to something else, like Barbara with the fear toxin and Harley working with task force x

[@NoahEurich]

“BeSiDeS cRiTtErS” Easily the hardest I’ve laughed during a vanishing point video.

[@stephanberger3476]

The two Harleys makes me think of White Knight (not dcau) in which the original Harley has been swapped for the new Harley. Crazy awesome.

[@monoveloso]

Well in mad love when Harley is explaining to Bats how Joker loves her, Bats leaves clear that he (J) has manipulated people before. Using the same or other lies

[@bluecanine3374]

Yeah, I always liked the idea of Harley not being the first or the last Harlequin. Makes the Joker seem more sinister and manipulative and also Harley seem stronger as being the one to survive and break his hold on her unlike the others.

[@dudeat1320]

This discussion reminded me of a scene from TNBA kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2TTe2yjepqindE

[@emiramano7513]

I am not ashamed to say I sang along with him in the beginning.

[@ItsOver9000Productions]

unironically batman v tmnt and the Batman v Dracula are some of my top fav batman films.

[@AJZulu]

It's Pizza Time

[@johndeska1]

Dude, Batman vs Dracula was badass!

[@kiarashhabibi3177]

@@johndeska1 agree

[@gabrielmcmillan]

@@AJZulu You’re late. I’m not paying for those.

[@MistahJay7]

Kowabunga

[@Lugbzurg]

I'd hardly call these "retcons". They're just adding context; nothing is being taken away.

[@Shiirow]

this is a situation of "an answer that raises more questions", so really it is retracting, because it throws the whole story into disarray.

[@batfan1939]

Retroactive Continuity. Erasure is the most common use of RetCons, but far from the only. Adding, taking away, or whatever; they're present story elements that change past ones.

[@MahNamJeff]

"harley was redeemed before she went on to brutilise tim drake and torture him with the joker" does take away from his character, convoluted task force X comic explanation or not.

[@dannybuckle3763]

I love the Fear Toxin-Based PTSD & Suicide Squad Harley theories, but I really don't like the Kyle Higgins stuff (other than the Batarang thing - that's honestly really sweet) because the entire Bruce x Babs relationship dynamic's just really creepy to me, plus the miscarraige felt kinda distasteful. As for retcons in general, I think that they're useful for narrative/lore-strengthening (the older DCAU stuff being tied back to Cadmus being a great example of this), but I don't like it being used excessively or without thought regarding the previously-established continuity (like the majority of the retcons Geoff Johns made to the Titans). I don't really care about retconned-in family members or anything else that's mostly trivial, but if you're going to f*ck around with your established continuity's plot then you damn well better have a clear explanation for it.

[@zyaicob]

Well now we for sure need a video on the theory that Wild Cards Joker is either a clone, a reanimated corpse, or Tim.

[@jturner2577]

None of the Above.

[@isetmfriendsofire]

Yeah, the Batman Beyond comics are weird. They started as a tie in. Then they started as their own thing. And then as they changed writers, they slowly started to drift into the realm of canon again. Quite confusing.

[@jturner2577]

Yes they are.

[@Chronoflation]

They also retcon Barbara getting shot in her final mission as batgirl, or even just wearing the suit under normal clothes and getting shot. When she first enters the batcave in Beyond, she points out the lack of bullet holes in her suit, implying she got shot and never returned to the cowl ever since

[@tjjordan4207]

In my mind, I do not consider them canon.

[@Gimodon]

What I most want to know is: what happened to Harley between her "death" and her showing up at the end (in 2042). Considering that's several decades apart it seems like they could make a whole miniseries just about that.

[@karinagrande2954]

I'd like to see the same thing

[@josephfischer7623]

God no

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Won't lie, your idea is actually a "They Wasted A Perfectly Good Plot" assumption in B: RotJ's YMMV page.

[@OurKindofEntertainment]

Damn this was a great theory! Especially when you mentioned Barbara's fear of falling due to the fear toxin...that tied together SO MUCH!

[@wanderlustwarrior]

Mattie, your concern is valid and should be appreciated. Speaking to you personally as an advocate, though, I don't think the placement and forum was constructive. It may just result in people doubling down, for better or for worse. Some statements don't actually do anything to help people in bad situations, while simultaneously "confirming" other people's invalid stance thst the first group are being whiny.

[@tankgunner9860]

Matt should sing am I blue next time

[@PrestonK_Productions]

I don't mind additive retcons (adding things that don't necessarily change what happened).

[@Lugbzurg]

Adding new context, where the old things we saw still happened.

[@silverpslm]

When Harley says, "Okay so I roughed the kid up a little, but I'll make it right", I kinda believe her now after your explanation.

[@georgejoestarii9469]

Earth 0 Harley would beat herself into a Bloody Pulp and she will be rewarded by Bruce handsomely. 😈

[@StarGazer0352]

Is it wrong I now want a cover of American Pie done by Mattie?

[@jackpower8215]

I personally think that Harley just went back to the Joker during the BBROTJ flashback simply because she was too dependent of him. We've seen her switch sides multiple times in the DCAU. She helped Batman & Robin track the Joker down in the episode "Harlequinade" only to betray them and re-join the Joker. She then tried to go straight in "Harley's Holiday" only to end up back in Arkham where she would likely have been manipulated by the Joker again. She then attempted going straight again in the "Batman & Harley Quinn" movie and at some point be returned to Arkham for the "Justice League vs the Fatal Five" movie. It's no surprise that she ended up back with the Joker for the "Return Of The Joker" flashbacks as she has a very well documented reputation and history of doing so. This is why I don't believe she was in league with Amanda Waller or Task Force X/the Suicide Squad by this point, she was just so overly dependent of her (very abusive) relationship with the Clown Prince of Crime. 🦇🃏

[@dcauwatchtower]

It’s definitely possible. Though in a never-greenlit JLU continuation comic, she would’ve been part of the Suicide Squad, so that at least seemed to be on their minds!

[@mechajay3358]

I'm only okay with Retcons as long as they don't contradiction the original story and makes sense.

[@jturner2577]

True and I think the Harley Quinn Task Force X Retcon makes sense.

[@CBright7831]

I wonder what the psyche of Gotham was after The Joker and Harley just randomly disappeared and stopped committing crimes? Probably a shrug and an, "Oh well. Good riddance." Still, it's an interesting premise. I could see Mr. J being the boogeyman of Gotham with people telling random and scary stories about him in the normal and criminal world.

[@Abominatrix650]

It's gonna be a couple of watches before I understand this one but I see the thought process and research put into it. Good job, Mattie

[@simbasorariku3]

Part of me has always wished Batman Beyond had been created after JLU, both to prevent these inconsistencies, & because we could've gotten more teamups & cameos (plus maybe - just maybe - Bruce & Diana might've actually gotten together).

[@Bob78550]

my favorite retcon involves Wave Rider and Booster Gold. and how Booster is now the new Wave Rider but no one has touched that since Convergence. Logically there would be two Wave Riders. The one that dies at the hands of Skeets and the other that becomes the Linear lady in Time Masters.

[@waterking74]

7:50 damn that quote hit hard 😢

[@GVOSOUL]

That flashback is one of the most heart wrenching of all time. Conroy and Hamill were amazing here.

[@bunbohuy]

The Bruce/ Barbra leaves such a bad taste in my mouth and I kept help but be repulsed by Bruce despite having the dcau Bruce being my favorite iteration of the character.

[@chamoo232]

I hate the idea of Bruce/Barbra doing it in any version of Batman. It just feels so wrong. Batman should know better. He has more moral and control than that.

[@guilhermehank4938]

@@chamoo232 hence why it will never be canon to me

[@kingb3746]

@@guilhermehank4938 amen 🗣

[@jonathancampbell7798]

You know what you didn't mention? Harley joins the squad in 2004, right? She's part of the squad till 2009. Near apocalypse of '09. The unmade comic which would feature the event shows her as part of the squad.

[@dcauwatchtower]

(We made this video before that comic pitch was made public)

[@Darkpoet1792]

PUDDING DAY!!

[@derp-7274]

Is that a reference

[@offthepoint2208]

Cannon or not this idea is amazing! I actually feel glad that I watched this video, had a great time and it made me appreciate the structure and thought of the DCAU much more

[@Nightman221k]

The Batman Beyond comic continuation story is so good for the most part, but I struggle to think of the retcon about the love triangle as being in line with what the original writers of Barbara's "it was puppy love" line were suggesting. I mean, Barbara and Dick in the original show WERE pretty much "puppy love" (being each other's first long term couple). But in the cartoon Dick turned 100% cold on Barbara when he found out her Batgirl secret and that she'd become Bruce's sidekick fulltime, which is pretty in line with what Barbara said. However, I think nearly becoming ENGAGED is beyond what anyone would call "puppy love." That and the way Barbara told Terry about her relationship with Bruce (in the episode) was delivered in a wistful sort of way, so I just have trouble picturing Barbara looking back fondly on Bruce betraying her trust to tell Dick she was pregnant when she intended to and her miscarrying in the middle of an alleyway. It seems traumatic beyond belief and mortifying for ALL involved. All of this happening so close to what happened to Tim... it's a bizarre way to write these circumstances and I wish that Kyle Higgins maybe thought this out in terms of following closer to the TONE of how Barbara described it. As it is, it's canon to Batman Beyond but at the same time I feel like that's just kind of a tonal mess that seems really jarring and it came about just to push the soap opera style confrontations into a subplot I really wish had not been put out there (I really could have gone my whole life not knowing who was banging who in the batcave and probably been better off).

[@WinterRabbit1]

You put everything I felt about that mess of a triangle into words.

[@Kavemancast]

I must have accidentally unsubscribed a few months ago. glad I found the channel again time to catch up

[@Chrisss...]

The scene from this movie which impacted me the most as a kid was that infamous moment when joker utters the name Brucey... still makes me shiver.

[@clockstomper]

I loved Weird Al's Star Wars version parody of American Pie, so that opening was a treat!

[@amccomics7560]

Amen, Mattie! ROTJ beats out every other Batman movie for me too! Also, at 1:33, I sometimes wonder which version of the movie is DCAU canon. I know a lot of people go to for the "Uncut" version, but the "Censored" one did technically air on Toonami first, so I always figured it to be the canon version. I guess it's probably just personal preference and either could have happened and the story is still pretty much intact. Anyways, great video!

[@PosthumanHeresy]

On the subject of retcons, I feel ultimately it depends how you do it. A good retcon is just a revelation about unrevealed aspects of a story that make sense and fit in the existing gaps. A bad retcon is using it to duct tape a plot together or repair any prior mistakes. DC usually does the second.

[@thewilhelmscream7912]

More Batman Beyond...just more!!!! I am rewatching the whole show and I think it's way more consistent in quality than I thought when I was younger, the episodes are as good as the best episodes in btas, which did not think before!!!! Really the entire first season of btas has like 5 really solid episodes with legitimate plots, they are really finding thier footing in the last few episodes of season one, batman beyond just knocks em outta the park, like every episode!!!!!

[@isetmfriendsofire]

The Wilhelm Scream Part of it is that Batman TAS is unfortunately slowly aging.

[@thewilhelmscream7912]

True, I'm just surprised how well Beyond maintains quality even in whats kind of filler episodes, it's awesome!!!! I also see btas now more like the old Fleisher cartoons of superman, older style, unique and iconic!!!!

[@LowellLucasJr.]

Its Pudding Day!! BECAUSE ITS THURSDAY!! Great intro & video guys! Any chance you could do a Timeline or Easter eggs on Batman vs TMNT?

[@rcbmmines4579]

12:38 c’mon guys it’s arguably the topic that needs “Will it canon” the most. It’s by far the one piece DCAU content that’s most unsure of canonicity.

[@ashleytuchin7693]

I used to hate retcons, but now I've always loved them.

[@artichoke873]

And while the Knight was looking down the Joker stole his pointy cowl...

[@artichoke873]

Also I will now always refer to Iowa as "I, Oa."

[@dcauwatchtower]

I told him he said it weird! THIS ISN’T TED, MAN!

[@artichoke873]

@@dcauwatchtower It's like the "O-reh-GAWN" or "O-reh-GUN" argument. It's only weird if that's NOT the way YOU say it... but no he said it weird... and I love it.

[@dcauwatchtower]

It’s the second one. I live there. It’s that one.

[@artichoke873]

@@dcauwatchtower Oh definitely, but tell that to ANY X-Files actor...

[@LordRavensong]

I feel like Taliesin explains Retcons best in his episode about Sylvanas and the Wrathgate Incident, where he says that a Retcon changes established lore, ie Joe Chill killing the Waynes being changed to Joker being their killer in the same story arc, whereas adding to the lore and expanding the lore would be like saying that we don't know who killed the Waynes and having Batman discover it was Joe Chill. I feel like most of this stuff is more in the camp of expanding the lore and answering questions about the incident rather than actual changes

[@dcauwatchtower]

1. For sure! Expanding the story is great, but sometimes it’s done by people who didn’t work on it the first time around, so things can get questionable. But they can also make the original story even better! 2. I thought you said “Talespin.”

[@LordRavensong]

@@dcauwatchtower 1. All true and excellent points 2. That's a blast from the past lol

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Man, the Watchtower Database better wanna talk about how Disney Television Animation ensured of the DCAU getting a worthy contender during their heydays, what with breather shows like Darkwing Duck, arc-driven shows like Disney's Gargoyles, and a mix of both like Kim Possible.

[@sasamichan]

One thing I wondered some times... For the sake of this question lets say ALL the Robins ever to exist in DC even ones created after the year the movie was made existed in the DCAU and would have been available for this movie.. Would any of the OTHER Robins have been better at not getting captured, getting free, resisting torture , and not giving in to Joker's brainwashing? How would any other Robin change the events of this movie if that Robin was used in place of Tim Drake? in regards to Retcons the question is "Does the retcon work in the time line?" If yes then its nice to explain a gap in the story. If The retcon messes up the whole story then it was never needed. You also have to ask your self what is canon? Some times a property changes hands and there can be multiple different stories on the same time line. Like Does Luke Skywalker marry Mara Jade? Or does he Become a hermit and go crazy? That sort of thing. Any retcons HAVE to be supported by other events in the time line.

[@maxisenberg9093]

i know we only see his shadow in the edited version but i feel like even then, electrocution is more graphic. As far as shootings go, that scene was pretty tame. i anything, the situation surrounding it was far more disturbing. though, i guess it helps that the electrocution was an accident he did to himself vs someone else intentionally shooting him

[@lukewitherspoon3926]

Even if he's dead, there's always someone like him, a worse evil. An invitation to a worse evil. Same thing uncle said about shendu and what happened? Valmont picked up where he left off. Different face but same evil but worse.

[@luckysix1015]

Retcons always depend on how good they are. Like making Harley have her new 52 “ redemption” arc in the dceu even though it doesn’t fit was pretty bad. But other days you can get amazing retcons that make everything cooler.

[@dpglounge4900]

Yesssssss so agree! Red hood is a close second super underrated

[@devinkavanaugh1034]

Sometimes retcons can suck but bad stories can suck even more so in the end I think sometimes they are necessary.

[@BobbertLord]

I really like the idea of introducing modern DC ideas into the DCAU. I know the squad was already in Justice League but I really like the Harley version and like the idea she was on a mission during RotJ.

[@Thunderstrike2002]

Recon can be good if they build off of and add to the storyline but not if they unnecessarily change things without a logical and convincing reason or explanation

[@circeciernova1712]

I mean, there have been AT LEAST three separate Jokers confirmed to be present in other bat-media... allowing for multiple actors at different times can help to a degree with timeline screwiness... the big irrefutables as far as I can tell are that A) Tim Drake stopped acting as Robin following the incident, and B) any other Jokers were either already dead, or used the event (not exactly subtle with Bats and Babs tearing through Gotham for weeks looking for Timmy) as a good cue to lie low or cash out, as we don't exactly see any Joker-linked stuff between Tim's ordeal and Beyond.

[@AETorrePuerto]

I'd like to have more current Joker stories, but the DCAU has reached an impass and it's almost impossible without a retcon. However, a lot of stuff can be done without major retcons: 1. The lost years between TAOB&R and TNBA. I think about 60 episodes can fit here. The fun part is that it can be done in BTAS style but the characters can in-story changes of look towards TNBA. For instance, the Penguin strikes gold, gets his hands done (still needs gloves), a haircut and loses some weight to get a legit image. The Riddler loses hair. The Scarecrow gets burned and so on. Batman could even have TNBA uniform. 2. The Adventure Years. Batman solo stories during his JL era. 3. Post-Destroyer, post-RotJ JLU or any character's solo adventures. This might include the near-Apocalypse of 09, might include the tough integration of GLTAS, might integrate Jessica and Miss Martian. To make things solid it has no Joker, Tim Drake or Batgirl, and Harley is good now. 4. Other prequels. Most of the JLU members had solo adventures before initiation. Swamp Thing, Adam Strange or Constantine don't have to debut in the present. Zatanna's search would be a great story with say Batman, Elongated Man, the Atom, and to cover for Hal and Carter, some fun mix like Jonah Hex and Constantine or Etrigan. The DCAU has enough room to pull both a Frazier and a Better Call Saul.

[@isetmfriendsofire]

Armando E. Torre Puerto I’d like to see em adapt more DCAU comics into episodes. They can jump around the timeline for all I care.

[@AETorrePuerto]

@@isetmfriendsofire between unused scripts, comics and maybe video games there is a lot of material to be made Canon. However, I really want to see characters like Egghead, Cavalier, Killer Moth, King Tut, Shame, the Tweeds, Blockbuster, the General or Sterling Silversmith get reinvented the BTAS way. I am aware that Dini dismissed most of them in the late 90s, but if he really made an effort he could make them as cool as the Clock King or Maxie Zeus. (Besides, BTAS had its own collection of lamos that fit perfectly in the DCAU, like the Sewer King, Nostromos, Boss Biggis, Farmer Brown).

[@AETorrePuerto]

@Elemental King yeah. Although I don't think of BTAS and TAOB&R in terms of seasons

[@RustyNips]

I want a "flash(man) the animated series" To go along with "super(man) the animated series" and "bat(man) the animated series " Taking place before his race with super man and up to even passing JLU Be nice to get indepth explanation for why Wally is flash and not Barry and who is kid flash? Is it a younger Barry with wallys original origin story?

[@Anti-HyperLink]

Honestly, if Jim couldn't already figure out that Barbara is Batgirl, he's not much of a detective, is he? But that goes for almost every detective in superhero comics. The ones that aren't the superheroes.

[@Doctor_Odin]

The overall ultimate question is who activated the chip in Tim Drake. If the Joker’s amazing high recovery and survivability rate is a result of the usage of the nano chips from Cadmus than likely there was only two left. One in the person who settled down with Harley after the clown jokers definitive death, and the one implanted in Tim. The only thing remaining is what fully activated the chip was it Papa Joseph Kerr dying while being aware of the resurgence of Batman or was it just Nana Harley dusting out her old gear.

[@dcauwatchtower]

Why do you think there’s another chip in someone who settled down with Harley?

[@Doctor_Odin]

@@dcauwatchtowerit’s all about appeasing their psychosis and Joker Jr. sort of fulfilled the whole death by bats intended ultimate joke. Because the clown only won by a technicality his death still occurred, but he wasn’t able to truly break little Bats. Which leaves the only thing left is his attachment to Harley and her delusion of the sitcom domestic life she’s wanted with him. So who had the relapse Nana or Papa, it likely wasn’t Nana, considering her attitude when bailing out her granddaughters.

[@callumdarbyshire1567]

100/ 10 we need more singing in these videos

[@JoseMorales-lw5nt]

Meanwhile, thank God the first generation DVD was essentially the uncut, Pre-Columbine storyline the creators were originally going to air! I recalled buying it due to online rumors of an alternate death of Joker that couldn't air on network TV. Always figured someone as smart as The Joker would survive via Cadmus. Over the years, I've come to appreciate the Batman Beyond universe and its ultimate tie-in to Justice Justice League Unlimited...😎🇵🇷🇺🇸🗽🦂

[@Sternly]

When it comes to retcons I prefer creators to work with what has been established before rather then changing or ignoring stuff. Alternatively when there are retcons I tend to like them if they can find a way of making things more interesting, which most of the comics you've gone over here seems to do while working with what has been established already. Which is a double win in my books. In another non-DC example I'm personally worried that the next star wars will be doing a lot of "course correction" after the last Jedi. Regardless of what anyone thinks about what happened in it I'd rather they work with it. Make it work in retrospect. The last thing I'd like is it to go " yeah but actually..." That's the worst kind of retcon

[@jturner2577]

Personal Headcanon: But in my opinion the Joker's Catlyst for Torturing and Brainwashing Tim Drake was a combination of the following; 1.Ace rendering him Catatonic for a few months. 2.Realizing how overshadowed hes been in Batman's mind and how insignificant he's become to him. 3.Frustration that he couldn't kill or break Batman. 4.Just getting bored of the game and wanting to end it with a Scheme big enough to show Batman that even in the face of Metahumans, Gods, Demons, Aliens, Interdimensional creatures, he'll always be his greatest threat and worst nightmare.

[@Krispy_Krame]

I feel it's totally fine when artists make changes to their past work. Art is whatever you interpret it to be. If you don't like their new interpretation, you still have the old one. Or, make your own changes. Fan fic can be really awesome when done well.

[@GabrielToribioMonsta]

I thought my relationships were turmoiltuius . It makes sense that the Bat Family would fall apart after that. That flashback and those comic tie ins need to be expanded into a DCAU movie of Death of the Family.

[@shelbybayer200]

Both versions can be Canon depending on your choice of which version

[@svenmartin840]

I think Cadmus worked with United Nations Intelligence Task Force. And the second and third Doctor. And Amanda Waller might have met the 2,3,4, and 5th doctors. And the Joker learned about this. Through his connections.

[@marvingreen5982]

this is B.Tim i love your videos and you are right about everything keep on doing what your doing ill be in touch

[@Fixer_Su3ana]

As someone who can't buy every new comic that comes out, retcons mean everything I remember from reading comics never happened in canon. As an added bonus, the canonical events are frequently just mentioned and not shown. And with the increasing politicalization of comics, they tend to rewrite good characters and storylines to be trash.

[@andyenglish4303]

One thing I think that throws the entire DCAU into flux is the events of Convergence. Convergence sent Superman, Supergirl, Barry Allen, and Parallax back to 1986 where they prevented the collapse of the multiverse in the original Crisis on Infinite Earths. The fallout from that supposedly altered all infinity universes in some way, which basically means anything and everything is fair game for retcons. Honestly I'm kind of okay with that. As much as I love the DCAU that was, Batman and the Batfamily got a pretty raw deal with all his relationships failing, Tim Drake being traumatized by the Joker and Harley, Talia getting her mind erased by Ra's... Not to mention Superman being controlled by Starro for years.

[@Forestxavier20]

Two things: One, I interpret it as that Harley is a groupie. Kinda like the White Knight comics have Harley and Neo Harley. When Harley does something out of character for where she would be within the timeline, Joker just replaced her because him losing the original Harley doesn't matter to him, he just wants a sidekick who he can have slow down Batman. Two, Retcons are something that depends on the work. Retconning a story after the story has finished for some time (see, JK Rowling with Harry Potter) makes the story inherently worse. It creates a sense of nothing you read can truly be trusted because the author is going to just bullshit it after the fact. When a story is still active or if it is a new story building off the old story (See Star Wars before Disney bought it), then you have two timelines. The original and self contained canon (Original Trilogy) and the expanded universe. A contained story isn't gonna be ruined by the new canon, but the new canon is going to build off the foundation. Them constantly working with tons of other stories to make a cohesive timeline for the animated universe was never going to be clean and pretty because them building off the base universe requires them to fit the pieces in where they can and build around it, rather than working together for a cohesive storyline.

[@LibraGamesUnlimited]

Like so many things retcons are not all good or all bad. It depends on how they're handled, what they change and why it's changed.

[@petefischer3820]

I have a new theory surrounding this and Batman and Harley. Do you think that Nightwing could be the father of Harley's child due to their encounter? I feel like that drama could have had her back in Arkham and in a great spot to be manipulated by Waller for Taskforce X later on for the Joker mission. Waller would have gotten her out and Harley raised a child who in turn had the acrobatic Dee Dee Twins. What do you think of that, Matty!

[@FanaticMitchell1]

DC actually confirmed that recently

[@dextercumberbatch4334]

I wish they did a Batman series that filled in the gap between ROTJ and the beginning of Batman Beyond

[@bighomie.fresh601]

What’s good bro I’m new to your channel & I’m a fan of Batman Beyond! I have 2 of my own personal fam questions lol 1. Where was Nightwing in the Batman beyond series or movie? 2. Do you think it would’ve been possible for a “Return of the Joker 2” featuring an older Jason Todd?

[@dcauwatchtower]

To answer both questions, Nightwing was actually supposed to come back in a sequel to “Return of the Joker”! But sales for RotJ weren’t great at the time so it never happened. We did a whole video about it! Check out our video on “Epilogue Wasn’t a Retcon”! (As long as you’ve seen the JLU episode “Epilogue”!)

[@TJ52359]

I think 'Broad Strokes" is the best way to look at Retcons... and Timelines for that matter... don't get me wrong I love the videos that analyze such things... when at the end of the day we need to remember Two Things (at least) 1. Comic Book Time (as Timm cited "Beyond is always 50 years in the Future" - so while Event A and event B might have been expressly 2 years apart as they were originally depicted; if you revisit those events via flashback there is no reason (unless the Plot is literally dependent on that passage of time (ie Pregnancy, Holidays) - Episode Order need not dictate chronology 2. these details ARE being inserted (often as little more than a shout out) well after the original Creator's tale and said creator left such things out for a reason (what ever it may be) - that reason may simply be conservation of detail - unless the Retcon/shout out Writer is sitting down with one of the above cited chronology Videos they only have a general idea about where their added fact will fit in the first place

[@CrashWeezerman]

13:30 Oof, that face is drawn weird. But, yeah, retcons should be used sparingly & only to make a story more cohesive. The worst retcons are made when a writer is using it to justify their own inconsistency when they handle a character. Which tends to be a common problem with Batman, funnily enough. The New Batman Adventures is harder to watch when you think about Batman and Batgirl being in a relationship during that time. I find the age difference a little bit disturbing, and the fact that Bruce is dating his son's ex is just messed up.

[@Chronoflation]

My biggest problem with the comics is that when Barbara first visits the batcave in Batman Beyond, she implies that she hasn't visited since her last mission and that she had been shot at that time, pointing out that Bruce stitched the bullet holes from her Batgirl suit. In the comics, she already gave it up and didn't have the suit on at the time, and I also don't thing she was shot getting "bullet holes" (plural, meaning 2+ shots or an in and out) in that incident. She was just hit, right? Maybe I'm mistaken about that, but I know she didn't have any holes in her suit from it, even if she was shot

[@dcauwatchtower]

The comics you’re talking about aren’t canon to the DCAU-check out our “Will It Canon?” episode on Earth-12!

[@Chronoflation]

@@dcauwatchtower I just did, and I agree, none of those should be canon. It just annoys me that they're the closest we have to canon for this stuff. We do know that Barbara and Bruce hooked up cause of her response to Terry when they first had their sit down chat. But it really is a pain that they've muddied the waters of the comics so much. Hopefully the staff they bring back for the new DCAU Batman show and the new movies will really follow the lore accurately. Side note, still kinda salty that JL Bruce never ended up with Diana, or at least lived that fling out on screen. The Beyond Universe being the canonical result of the full DCAU Universe of heroes we followed as kids is kinda depressing. I like to heart canon and claim Beyond as an alt future where shit went down and the heroes failed to prevent dystopia, but that there's also a future that's more...bright, I guess you could say

[@Oneorb]

This channel needs a million followers

[@thatman103]

Retcons can be tricky. Killing off a character is a great risk. I loved Return of the Joker but didn't really like that they killed him "in continuity". The character most in need of a retcon since the Crisis in 85 has been WW and of course also Troia. From what I understand they still haven't gotten it right.

[@julianoviedo3104]

Dude you overthink this, the hatley thing was only that she escaped task force x and joined the joker, who knows maybe the joker help her like in the suicide squad movie

[@InfernoBlade64]

Wished mcu can do the same thing to iron man and black widow 😢

[@sicksadworld765]

? But Harley never died

[@firefighter4532]

That intro was simply beautiful lol

[@tjjordan4207]

I've always wondered if making The Animated Series in connection with the DCAU was a mistake in the long run. Because the animation and feel of the BTAS is so different when comparing it to its slight rebooted Season 4 and Batman Beyond, to the point that they feel like different universes.

[@remyheart27]

Geesh comic book writers have to have everyone sleep together. Like Barbara seemed more of a sister not a love interest. But nope she literally sleeps with every member of the bat family including tim in Arkham knight

[@Anti-HyperLink]

These shows have been old for a long time. Talking about the epilog isn't a spoiler. And knowing what's going to happen in something before you see it doesn't ruin anything. People are such whiny babies.

[@dcauwatchtower]

That’s definitely one opinion! It does ruin it for some, if not most, people. There is no time limit on spoilers. Just don’t talk about something if you don’t know for sure the other person has seen it, out of courtesy. Pretty easy.

[@darrellgardner4561]

I wish they would bring back Batman Beyond. Its just so good. I just like Terry and old Bruce, it works so well.

[@AbysswalkerD]

I really appreciate your dedication to the DCAU. Keep up the great work!

[@Mirrorcomics24]

Is it weird if I watch my dvd of the film but I go straight to digital just for the one joker death scene uncensored?

[@kimeraclan3135]

Harley's surviving the fall down the underground fissure is often thought to have been Poison Ivy's work. She injected Harley with both anti-toxins and stimulants back in the BTAS episode "Harley and Ivy". Harley survived another seemingly lethal fall at the climax of "Mad Love". But saying that Amnda Waller and the government saved Harley is far-fetched. Absence of evidence is not evidence.

[@kimeraclan3135]

@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 She did recruit Harley. But did she save her?!

[@kimeraclan3135]

@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Can't argue with that. But the whole argument seems flimsy any way I look at it.

[@ColdFuse96]

0:44 Whoa there, hotshot, I think that title belongs to The Dark Knight Returns 😆 (The Frank Miller movie, not the Chris Nolan live action movies)

[@dcauwatchtower]

🤔

[@zacharymorales1656]

U have some good pipes dude

[@drewdanger9413]

They really messed up. Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon's relationship. I always hated that they deserve to be together and do have an awesome life. You've only been waiting since the 1960s

[@EduardoTorelly]

8:44 dont forget theres a full episode of batman and harley working to stop a nuclear weapon from destroying gotham that ends on a good not hor harley, then next time she appeared she was a criminal

[@youngkiller3618]

Just had this on my recommendations

[@geo4408]

And we starting singing, bye bye Mr American pie!

[@jasontoddman7265]

I just simply assume that different stories - retcons or not - shown in different programs or in different media like comic books simply take place in different, similar but completely separate realities/universe/what-have-you. Not just the DCAU but any franchise with multiple iterations. It's the same thing as I do with the various iterations of Star Trek to explain why characters and tech and so on look different between each and to explain seeming continuity errors. Like they did with the Kelvin time line if not quite so drastically different. Not saying the events of one couldn't have happened in another; just that it deals with the entire retcon issue neatly without having to change anything else at all.

[@brianwhite8686]

A question for you: Is it possible the events in this movie never happened? Is it possible "Old" Bruce Wayne seen in Justice League Unlimited episode "The Once and Future Thing, pt 2" warned Batman about Tim Drake's abduction? Or maybe Terry McGinnis said something to Virgil Hawkins when Static traveled to the Batman Beyond time period in Static Shock's "Future Shock" episode?

[@React2Quick]

@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Then the fact Older Bruce Wayne has no recollection of traveling into the future. However with Chronus traveling into the future, he could have caused a split in the timeline where "The Once and Future Thing Pt.2" does happen and one where it doesn't happen.