What's Left To Say About Beatrice Horseman? (Bojack Horseman Video Essay)

[@reviewman]

Here’s my stance on Beatrice, I feel sorry for the woman that was emotionally abused by her father and married a bastard husband. I don’t feel sorry for the bitter old woman who took her problems out on her son because of her bullshit.

[@eileensnow6153]

On the one hand, hurt people hurt people; on the other hand, it was her own responsibility to make sure her father’s words didn’t come true: “Your sickness has infected everything.”

[@seeleunit2000]

That's a fair point.

[@HogTime]

I always assumed Honey died or was institutionalized after Beatrice got sick, but at Beatrice's debutante ball (27:20) you can see Joseph pull Honey to stand next to him. So not only did Beatrice have to lose her brother and then her mother, her mother's lifeless husk hangs around for the rest of her life as a constant reminder of what happens when women get too attached.

[@micatrustyenbie4487]

I never noticed that until now...that's so sad. Even her hair looks like it hasn't been properly taken care of. Joesph really just turned his wife into a trophy...

[@kaliyahc9171]

How didn’t you see her earlier? Did you miss this scene while watching?

[@user-ku5ez4ew3m]

@@kaliyahc9171 🤓

[@kaliyahc9171]

@@user-ku5ez4ew3m you’re a weirdo

[@aickavon]

@@micatrustyenbie4487 I know it's a year old comment but I think Joseph got a bit too much hate for the lobotomy (Weird take, I know). Back in those times, doctors would actually recommend lobotomy to cure mental problems (such as depression), Joseph at this time had just lost his son, has no way to properly grief, his wife nearly killed his daughter in a drunk drive accident, and more. He's not in the right state of place to go 'hey, my wife wants to be fixed, maybe we should consider alternatives to lobotomy that doctors keep saying works?' What we do see is that Joseph takes his wife back to the summer home to find the blanket, that when she demands help, he goes to a medical professional, that when she becomes far more absent, he becomes more involved in Beatrice's life, and he even... and this is important, specifically mentions that he regrets the procedure when Beatrice nearly dies of scarlet fever. And instead of hiding his wife away in a home (he had the money to do such), he kept her around and didn't throw her away. What I can say is that Joseph is a flawed character who never learned or wanted to learn on how to change for the better, and he was a product of his time... But he actually shows multiple times that he tried to be a good person. It's just... he was wrong. A lot.

[@DragonGoddess18]

"Because she's your mother" Is one of the most insensitive and short-sighted things one can ever say

[@ShogunFPV]

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[@ShogunFPV]

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[@ShogunFPV]

Vic p lv pvvcpvv😮 19:59 rrr

[@ShogunFPV]

brtteysr😅ttfnrxohfm cccvgngttrydrydrrrdrd😅😅t

[@Abbanellie]

She was a teenager....

[@valness3017]

As a millennial raised by boomer parents, the cigarette scene is dead on. My dad did that to me when he caught me smoking, lol. Luckily, when he wasn't looking I dipped all the tips in water to prevent the cigarettes from lighting and he was so annoyed accusing me "if you can't light them you shouldn't be smoking them" walks over and tries to light them himself, doesn't work, flies into a rage and doesn't talk to me for two weeks. Check mate 😅

[@Dairyshelly]

That’s crazy

[@valness3017]

@@Dairyshelly Boomers had weird parenting. I don't blame them too much but many in that age group just really didn't know any better and followed patterns set by their parents. Lots of parenting without thinking.

[@appalachiabrauchfrau]

Same. My parents made me smoke a whole pack of Fantasias when I was 8! They caught me smoking a pink one lol. I got off light though, my cousin had to smoke a whole cigar after his mom caught him playing with one when we were make-pretending Mob Bosses. Yay for boomer WASP parents, right?

[@yukilaserpe7700]

And people wonder why gen x love to pass under the radar and be proud of pretty simple things playing outside (as if my millennial azz wasn't ever outside)... Or why gen y are full blown uncomfortable cringe people pleasers, and gen z are entitled egomaniacs 😅 I love when the later generations pout about the youngest, because they forgot about which one faults it is, usually they are from 2-1 gen before the one they wine about, meaning they are the parents. 😅

[@dexterhopkins5267]

I think it's important to make the distinction between justification and explanation when discussing Beatrice's character. Her past trauma explains her actions, but sure as hell don't justify them

[@magnarcreed3801]

I mean doesn’t it? A person gets ticked over by society you can’t expect them to be good. There’s even a saying for this. “A child that doesn’t feel the love of a village will burn it to the ground to feel it’s warmth.”

[@MinoriGaming]

@@magnarcreed3801 The thing with cycles of abuse is that you should strive to break them, not perpetuate them. Beatrice and Bojack both went on to perpetuate those cycles.

[@dracocrusher]

@@magnarcreed3801 That's why the distinction exists. It makes sense for someone who was, say, abused to take it out on someone else. But that also doesn't excuse their actions, either. Everyone always has a choice to be a better person if they want to, and I think that's one of the big themes of the show overall. Bojack doesn't have to be stuck in this cycle of self-destructive behavior. It makes sense for him to be like this, but it's never too late for him to back away and start making better choices for himself. It's never too late for any of the characters. And while some of them don't take that step, others do, and you see their struggles dealing with dealing with that over time. You are not your history. You are who you want yourself to be. It's not an easy thing to just do, but it is possible to change.

[@dexterhopkins5267]

@@magnarcreed3801 But like that's the mistake I just warned against. It explains them, but it doesn't mean what she did was right

[@babycakelings]

@@magnarcreed3801 of course it doesn’t. An excuse states the person can not be blamed for their action because of a reason, but an excuse does not allow for growth. Excuses are the reason generational trauma happens. If you do not take accountability for your actions, you can not change them. If you or other constantly excuse your own actions as “oh it’s because I was abused as a child” no change will ever happen. That’s what Bojacks story is about, taking accountability for his actions and the effect they have on others around them. You need an explanation to understand someone’s actions, including your own, it’s very hard to change your own bad actions if you don’t know the why of them. But an excuse is so so very different to an explanation.

[@bethbayless5652]

1) Abuse is still abuse, even if the abuser was/is a victim. 2) Yes, dementia does make a person forget how to do anything. Nothing is in order. It ests the brain until it can't do its job and keep you alive. Then you basically sufficate. 3) in a healthy family, the lucid moments are the worst because for just a little while, they are themselves again. It's like they are a ghost, but still there.4) Great video Kitty.

[@frankielovejoy9928]

22:00 What's really interesting to note is, despite what many people assume, most people who were abused by their parents don't become abusers themselves, so Beatrice's situation always felt like a worst-case-senerio for me. Personally, I think Beatrice's issues stemmed less from the abuse directly and more from her father's example of disregarding the feelings of others. Yes, this is abuse, but I mean this exact example he set is what lead Beatrice to be who she is. Joseph disregarded Honey's grief over her son and had her lobotomized in order to continue to ignore the issue. He disregarded Beatrice's sadness over her baby doll. He disregarded her hard work getting a degree. In return, Beatrice began to imitate his behavior: She disregarded her father's wants for her to find a husband, she disregarded her own debutante ball to leave with Butterscotch. She disregarded Bojack when the reality of her situation set in, and continued to do this for his entire life. She was taught to disregard other people's feelings. And that's why she is the way she is.

[@seeleunit2000]

Well, that's part of the abuse. And, Beatrice was a woman who grew up in a time where, women didn't have many rights and financial opportunities. So, she was also financially dependent upon both her father and her husband. Which contributed to that.

[@creasedhorizon8931]

Its two side of the same coin. Some people who are abused grow up to continue the cycle and carry on the learned behaviors, and some manage to break the cycle and do better. Both definitely happen frequently

[@TheCommenterDragon]

Even though i felt a little bad for Beatrice because of what she went through in her childhood, i don't condone the stuff she did as an adult she neglected her own child that she never wanted I.E. Bojack and she stole another woman's chance to be a mother by taking her child away ipso facto Henrietta and Hollyhock.

[@trashking471]

Tbh, it was for the best Beatrice took away Hollyhock. Henrietta was NOT ready to have a baby, she was a young woman studying for nursing school and when asked if she wanted the baby, Henrietta said, "I...think so..?" THAT'S NOT A GOOD SIGN 💀 Also, no one would've been there to help take care of the baby since Butterscotch is...Butterscotch. She was obviously not ready for a baby, while Beatrice was manipulative, nearly everything she said to Henrietta at their talk at the table was a fact.

[@j.c.2240]

I'd argue that action was one of the few truly kind things she did. Henrietta didn't want to be a mother, she wanted to go to nursing school, and not getting an opportunity that wasn't wanted in the first place isn't really a bad thing in most cases. Beatrice saw her life about to be repeated but worse, and gave a young woman the chance to follow her true goals and get away from a toxic, awful, abusive man. She didn't want Henrietta to experience the pain she had or to inflict the pain onto the child, as she did to Bojack

[@yourfavoritenothing3.0]

I agree with everything except the part about Holly. I think it was for the best she took her away for the mother because she had a life ahead of her and wasn’t ready to me a mom.

[@fredericksaxton9782]

@@trashking471 Well it STILL effected BOTH her and Hollyhock for years. How do you know what would have been best for her anyways? You never know. After she was seperated, Henrietta never stopped looking. Her child being taken away haunted her, what was the point of everything she "succeeded" at if she still wasn't happy without her daughter? Just because Beatrice was a terrible mom doesn't mean Henrietta would be.

[@fredericksaxton9782]

@@j.c.2240 What are y'all talking about?? When Beatrice wanted her to get rid of the baby, she REFUSED. She WANTED her baby, but BEATRICE literally told her her feelings were invalid. Beatrice literally said "You THINK you want this but don't let it ruin your life like it ruined mine" she invalidated Henrietta's feelings AND then manipulated her into giving up her child because Beatrice fear mongered her into thinking it would make her as miserable as it did Beatrice, but THEY'RE NOT THE SAME PERSON. Why even is it up to anyone else to tell someone else if they're ready for a baby or not? How about, leaving it up to them?? No, she screamed as her baby was taken away, not even getting to hold her. And y'all say that's "the one nice thing she did" screw. You. All. She wanted to take away her baby like her baby doll was taken away, and you're VALIDATING manipulating a woman to give up her child. I'm sorry, that grosses me out.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

To be fair when Joseph is burning Beatrice’s things and essentially threatening her the fact that the show has the fires flames surround him implies that Joseph is intended to be seen as a monster

[@carolyns4519]

The way his ears go up make it look like he has devil horns. The fire and horns are symbolism for him being evil.

[@seeleunit2000]

Yeah, that's the point. Why does it seem so hard to understand Joseph Sugarman is a monster.

[@BongBing11]

​@@seeleunit2000 I dunno, I've seen a video that makes him more emotionally ignorant than responsive

[@sebastiansantana2447]

@@seeleunit2000I mean in that scene alone, he was doing what he had to. Maybe he could’ve done it with some tact but still that’s what he had to do

[@deejaydj6013]

@@seeleunit2000I’ve seen a vid that makes him look less like a monster and more a typical 1940s dad stuck in his ways. You should watch in defence of Joseph sugarman

[@GarnetHeartIllustrations]

Free Churro is such an incredible episode. A whole episode that's one monologue and a punchline, but its so captivating and compelling that you don't realize how much time has passed

[@aclown9127]

If Beatrice had told her father she was pregnant first she most likely would’ve been sent to a institution where she would be hidden away for the duration of the pregnancy until they put bojack up for adoption not even letting Beatrice see her and only being sent back once they had “fixed” her body Happened to someone in my family who had a eerily similar upbringing to Beatrice

[@seeleunit2000]

That's what I pointed out. And Joseph Sugarman would have done so with a smile on his face.

[@Crazedromantic2]

A few things. 1) Baby boomers had access to a lot of ephedrine for weight loss in the 1950's that was being marketed as miracle pills for housewives, which is a stimulant not to dissimilar from Adderall. Given that Hollyhock was panicking, anxious, and jittery, the pills were probably laced with ephedrine. Stimulants curb hunger a lot and are really easy to overdose on. Ephedrine is mostly illegal now outside of asthma medication (sort of in a gray area) so weight loss supplements don't include it anymore, which is probably why no one thought to check. 2) Abusers do not create abusers in majority. That's a really bad stigma that gets tossed around as an excuse from abusers to resolve themselves of responsibility for their actions. Many survivors of trauma, myself included, instead develop a strong sense of empathy where we deeply understand the pain that comes along with toxicity and try very very hard not to replicate what our parents did to us. I think I read in college it's somewhere around 30%? That pick up habits from their abusive parents? But I'm also pretty adamant about not perpetuating the abuse of my own mother so it's possible I only sought out articles on Scholar that aligned with what I wanted to hear. I'm sure there's support for both @-@ Also, don't worry about copying other people. Even if its a similar topic, you'll have your own views on the subject and your own supporting arguments, and if you try to avoid everything people have already talked about you'll drive yourself crazy. Don't be afraid to speak your piece~ Your videos are great.

[@jamie1602]

Spot on. My mother was obsessive about not repeating her abusive habits that her own father had done. Unfortunately this meant she never could treat her own problems. This wasn't bad for me. This was bad for her. She neglected her health in an attempt to be perfect so she was never diagnosed as hard of hearing or for her ADHD. She got help for her depression and anxiety but it was 90s level of care. It was something but she could have done a little more for herself. She's very empathetic to abuse but she also slips and will repeat things that are very 70s minted. She'll then correct her knee jerk response. She'll always be a work in progress but she tries. She's trying very hard. That 30% is also considered to be heavily inflated as it was taken from men who are currently incarcerated. So that's a very tiny sampling size and even then not a good reflection of humanity. That still says expect a much lower number if you're going to look at an entire population. This notion is outdated and very misogynistic. It either demonizes women for surviving abuse or men for daring to speak up about abuse and trying to combat social stigmas. "Abusers create abusers" is a tool of toxic masculinity to silence people into being punching bags.

[@strayiggytv]

A lot of modern weight loss junk just substitutes caffeine for the illicit substances. They can be dangerous because the more caffeine you ingest the less you "feel" it so you take more and more until you start getting heart palpitations.

[@jasminchavez9060]

i think there needs to be more research into studying generational trauma and who comtinue it and who break it because i feel like 30% is too low of a number but that’s just me. i also grew up abused and it affected me the same way it affected you with having a lot of empathy for others

[@sadsapph3794]

the tragic thing abt beatrice is that she seemed to be slowly overcoming her trauma when we see her in college, she recognizes that her father and his attitudes are toxic. but when she gets w/ butterscotch to rebel against him, gets pregnant and her life slowly goes to shit, she kinda goes "oh. my dad was right about everything" :( you can see the shift in the way she thinks about him from her debutante flashback (dismissive/snappy) to when she's bringing bojack his painting (idolizing, sorta?)

[@babycakelings]

I think people get confused about abusers raise abusers statements. It’s not that every person, or even the majority of people who were abused, continue to then abuse their own kids. Most people who were abused to not go on to abuse their own kids. It’s more that people who are abusive were almost always abused themselves. People who were abused as a child are scientifically proven to develop differently to none abused children. How exactly depends on the type of abuse, but it always has a lasting mark. Some people are abused so badly they are unable to function in society, but those ones often don’t have kids and end up in jail for either drug charges or violent actions. But these people are in the minority and typically were abused with drugs or violence themselves. Now the majority of people who were abused have basically two paths they can go down, they can accept that they were abused and work on it, or deny it. Those who deny it are both common and uncommon depending on the time frame they grew up in. Aka, boomers commonly deny, Gen y rarely deny. Actual statistics on that are hard to get because someone in denial is just gonna say they were abused. But you can typically assume that huge amounts of abuse didn’t just spring up out of nowhere and it’s more likely people just aren’t denying it as often. These are the types that typically repeat the same type of abuse their parents did. It’s the “my parents hit me and I turned out ok” parenting type. And it’ll pretty much go on until a child grows up and stops denying it. But it can also shift slightly over time with people instead saying things like “oh it was different back then” and adjusting their parenting without actually dealing with their own trauma and instead still passing it on. Although that can also just luckily end the cycle, which is good but can’t be relied on. The other type of abused parents who confront it can go two ways. They can properly deal with it and stop being abusive at all. Or they can end up abusing their child in other ways, continuing the cycle but in a new way. These are the types of people that say things like “you don’t know how good you have it” and end up abusing their child in a brand new way. Such as those who grew up with horribly abusive strict parents giving their own kids no boundaries and rules and they end up neglecting them. They can also end up having unhealthy habits to deal with the consequences of being abused, like alcohol, that then creates a new type of abuse. I don’t think we actually know the rates or abused people raising children who are abused or not, because who is going to say “yes I was abused and yes I abused my kids,” what abused child is going to get in the same study as their parent and say they abused them. It’s sad, and we all say it’s untrue that abused people raise abused kids. But I think it’s more we hope that that is true. And all we as individuals can do is try to make that true.

[@arianaink100]

To say their historical representations you have to look at the actual animal history to understand some nuances. Sugar man is a work horse, one that doesn’t stop on plantations or in personal fields. Mrs.sugarman is a sick horse. Ones that’s medicated according to the times before being put down. The brother is a war horse. Beatrice is a philly her performance she needed to perform was jump tricks. Secretariat was a race horse. So stereotypes of racing and the expectations of working those horses to death in some cases. Bojack is a showhorse he’s meant to dance perform infront of cameras do tricks and has to do historically what horses did in Hollywood And in his perception he’s not existing in that he’s in his world of Hollywoo. His idols are race horses adored by everyone because of his connection to watching races on tv. He doesn’t fit in with that category.

[@Cure_Hana]

I’ve brought it up a few times already, but I’d love to see your take on Moral Orel now that the series has resurged in popularity these past couple of months. It started off as a zany episodic cartoon like what you’d find in early South Park, but then slowly morphed into a existential, serial slice-of-life that some people think could’ve rivaled Bojack if it came out today.

[@MARIA.sayonara]

That show deserves to be talked about

[@j.c.2240]

That show walked so Bojack could run

[@weikoworks]

For sure! I think she would make a good analysis on it :)

[@blitzie66]

what a brilliant show

[@StonedHunter]

I do want to say adding to your point of not getting over a child's death very quickly. It's been over a decade since my aunt passed away and I can tell you my grandmother is still not fully over it. That kind of pain never goes away it just dulls over time as you learn to live with it. Part of the tragedy is that without the lobotomy, Honey would have very likely gotten better to at least some degree as she processed her grief... That timeline was just too inconvenient for her husband sadly. Great video. I really love how you're able to sympathize with characters while not excusing their actions. It's something that can really easily be forgotten if you let yourself over simplify things and it's nice when content creators acknowledge the full picture.

[@nicholasrodinos4701]

One thing I liked about this video is that you don't use the 'it was a different time' excuse. Everyone is 'of their time' and it's not an excuse to be a monster.

[@eileensnow6153]

My favorite response to “she comes from a different time” is, “Oh, how long was the coma?” Because even being born in the 50s means you lived through the civil rights movement, gay marriage becoming legal, #MeToo, the wave of feminism in the 80s…being a product of your time doesn’t just refer to when you were born. I was born in the 90s and I’m a product of that time, _plus_ the 2000s, _plus_ the 10s, _plus_ the 20s. You don’t freeze in time after you’re born.

[@Leacholotemj]

Wendie Malick is a global treasure and should be protect at all costs.

[@shayziekaizie]

She is a great actress.

[@HazbinCovenWitch]

She also is in Emperor's New Groove. She played Pacha's wife. I forget her name though.

[@shayziekaizie]

@@HazbinCovenWitch oh, right. Pacha’s wife, Chicha.

[@HazbinCovenWitch]

@@shayziekaizie Oh, I thought that was his daughter's name.

[@kirin1230]

The fact she can amazingly do two mothers at the absolute opposite on the good parenting spectrum (Eda and Bea) is so impressive!

[@the_UF365]

Abuse can't justify abuse. Bad behavior can't justify bad behavior. Both circle back into themselves affecting people for generations.

[@ginnyledwell8923]

I totally agree with you saying we should try to understand the toxic people in our lives in order to avoid becoming them. I’d like to add something: Bojack believed that he was an inherently broken person because of his mother’s (and father’s) abuse. After all, if your own parents can’t love you, there must be something wrong with you, right? I’m sure every abused child has blamed themselves for what their parents did at some point, at least subconsciously. This is where learning about your toxic relative’s past could really help. It could help you realize, “oh, THIS is why so-and-so acted the way they did. It was never me. I did nothing wrong. They didn’t not love me because I was unlovable. They couldn’t love me because they were made incapable of loving.” It won’t magically heal you of your trauma- I don’t think any one thing can- but I bet it would take the sting out a little.

[@faikungirl18]

Did anyone catch when Joseph was telling Beatrice that she didn't want to end up like her mother, that when she showed up in the flames, she was screaming "help"?

[@Ratryoshka]

Beatrice was a feminist during her time eventhough she might not look like it. She acted the way she acted because of abuse from her dad, like the way Bojack acted the way he acted due to abuse from his parents.

[@MariAnimates]

22:00 People who were abused who become parents usually don't become abusers. In fact, I'd wager they become the best due to the fear they put their child through the same thing. My grandmother on my dad's side was like that, she is one of the sweetest people I've ever met.

[@lilithiaabendstern6303]

I would not generalize that abusers produce abusers because that is a slap in the face of every abuse survivor, who does not turn out that way - this is only true so far as the cycle of abuse isn't broken so please, don't

[@j.c.2240]

They say hurt people hurt people, and hurt stays there if it isn't dealt with

[@CreditR01]

It's a psychological reality, but it's not a certainty.

[@frankielovejoy9928]

This is something I agree everbody should keep in mind. Now, don't get me wrong, I know abuse will certainly affect a person's behavior/viewpoints, but that does not automatically mean they're going to jump straight to eleven and become abusive toward their own children. You can still be a functioning person despite abuse. You just need to make sure you're getting help for your issues and being mindful of your behavior. Abuse doesn't have to be a lifetime thing.

[@stobie9063]

@@CreditR01 that is the most accurate and nuanced way I've heard it described online

[@hombreg1]

Around 3/4 of abusers were abused themselves. Even then, most people who suffered abuse do not become abusers. Still, that statement and sentiment is correct. As a survivor of abuse, it is "my" burden to learn how to be better and break the cycle. It sucks, but it's something I "will" have to fight against. The phrase itself reminds "me" as a victim to be careful and learn to be better sk that I don't become a perpetrator. Facing this reality is harsh, but necessary, if your aim "is" to break the cycle.

[@dracocrusher]

Probably worth noting, something subtle I just noticed or maybe forgot about is that Beatrice only recognizes Bojack after he lashes out and acts really snarky and shitty to her. She's so used to him being an asshole that when she gets dementia, that's what she recognizes as 'her son'. So when he acts nice or tries to act less crappy, it can't be him. It has to be the maid or something because that's someone she thinks would act that way towards her. And because Hollyhock was around the entire time, Bojack kept from acting the way he would normally because even he has enough awareness to reel it back a little in front of his daughter... even if it's JUST a little.... Might be a stretch, but I feel like that adds up a lot and makes a ton of sense, looking back.

[@the_UF365]

" You're a young child woth no body fat, how dare you gain a pound." Tell that to my ex-stepmother... 4 years ago.

[@Eckertainment]

About the diet pills -- I think it's possible that Beatrice already had the diet pills with her when she moved in with Bojack and managed to hide them. Despite her rebellious nature as a young adult, she still went along with taking pills for her weight and carried over a lot of "expected" behavior into her marriage and later years. So it's possible that she was still taking pills herself until she started going down hill from dementia, or just still had pills leftover amongst her belongings from a while back. They could have been expired, but a lot of drugs still work to some degree for years after their expiration date, and with how badly Hollyhock crashed, it's likely that Beatrice was putting a bunch of them into her coffee to the point the doses were still excessive. Just a theory. It's the only thing I can think of that makes any sense.

[@squeezydoot]

I love that BoJack's life reflects Beatrice's life, except BoJack actually ended up owning up to his past mistakes and got better.

[@Good_luck_.]

Up until his past caught up with him and he spiraled. But I think he will ultimately become a better person

[@b0jack__]

Bojack Horseman follows a group of people trying to live despite their trauma but not ever moving past it entirely. Beatrice, as is true all other characters, is just an example of a way a person could go about this.

[@shadenocturnia1250]

I’ll be honest I watched Bojack horseman before starting the owl house, so when I started rewatching I FORGOT wendie malice did Beatrice’s voice. Now during any two scenes I hear her voice acting towards children, either being cruel and cold like Beatrice is to BoJack, or being tender and kind like Eda is to King and Luz. In a way it kind of makes you think “what if” these two characters swapped personalities. Basically Wendie Malick has an amazing voice and I love to see any role she performs in. :)

[@chimpwimp9407]

I always know her as Burdine from the Bratz and Beautiful Gorgeous from Jimmy Neutron.

[@kaymartinic5389]

I always thought that those memories are narrated by Beatrice, that's why her dad didn't seem to have a subtext in his dialogs, he said out loud things nobody would say, bc Beatrice remembers it like "what he meant", not like "what he actually said". I think Beatrice is a unreliable narrator due to trauma and dementia, that's why we can't judge Joseph teaxtually, but in the way Beatrice remembers him, in the same way she saw her mom as a shadow with a notorious scar, her dad's shadow sometimes get devil horns, Butterscotch's hat appears when mentioned and some faces are not visible bc she doesn't remembers them.

[@CormacThunderStar]

Another unfortunate case of victim that became the abuser

[@strayiggytv]

It could easily be confused with Suger. Actual weight loss "pills" often aren't pills at all and are many times packaged as "supplements". My aunt used to take "protein powder" in her morning smoothie and once when we were visiting I pulled the tub out to look at the ingredients. It was like 23% caffeine among other things.

[@mindseyemusicreview]

Within 1 minute I disagree with 2 things. 1st Todd is awesome! His antics often act as the foil to a lot of serious shit going on. Some of his lines and moments are the most quotable of the show especially early on. 2nd "shame the show ended where it did," would you want it to continue past the point where it was relevant, funny or interesting? We saw Bojack's story and where his life of not giving a shit led to. In my head cannon, he gets out of jail but continually struggles to turn his life around. Which is basically the whole show. How much more do we need?

[@Kris-wo4pj]

Creator already explained that the last season we got would have been the last season period. They would have just expanded on subplots.

[@helenaperez4343]

@@Kris-wo4pj yeah, I’m pretty sure that the story beats of the final season would have stayed the same, but would have been stretched over another few seasons, likely with some other additional plot lines as well. I think that’s would have been great to see, since I felt the second have of season 6 was a bit rushed. But I’m glad that it at least ended as well as it did, even if it wasn’t completely perfect.

[@kaylaHat]

Some subplots would've been better with more time, but yeah, they're SUBplots

[@stobie9063]

I totally agree, I love how the show ended and I'm surprised that seems to be the less popular opinion.

[@xGrifo]

like everyone already said, the subplots are what people want, one thing people love about this show is the amazing character development and detail they put into not just bojack himself but all the side characters. just to add if you didn’t know, there was actually supposed to be another season that netflix canceled, though i love where it ended i would have also loved for them to really finish off everyone’s story, regardless if it’s good or bad.

[@VideoMatoran]

Ah, Beatrice, the character that made me pick up a pitchfork I never put down since.

[@darby2314]

It is very common for children to be listed as with generic description named in situations like the one with Henrieta and Holyhock. For example you might list "Kaiserhospital, babygirl". It's to give the child a designation for tracking when a proper name is not available.

[@PrincessNinja007]

37:56 When I had a baby and he was adopted, the birth certificate just said "baby boy" until the papers were finalized. Fitting as it is, "girl horse" wasn't Beatrice's doing, it was likely just standard procedure

[@jarod2828]

Bojack's sailor suit, blue and white are symbols of innocence, and sailor suits with very young children

[@dylanlewis5113]

15:30. Propaganda has nothing to do with the draft. All Male US citizens are required to register for the Selective Service program. If your draft number is picked, you are required to join the military. The last time the draft was used was during the Vietnam War. To my knowledge, the only way out of it was if you were a college student, or if a military doctor declared you unfit for duty. The draft still exists today, and I hope we never have to use it.

[@joemomma2189]

The only other way is to be the last surviving eligible male of your family- I am such, as my father passed away, and most if not all of my male relatives are either dead, too old, or in prison.

[@virginiaarthur5]

@@joemomma2189also people like me I joined volunteer and was a worthless sucky soldier so got chapters so I’m ok if there’s a draft

[@moxxiedemongamer3019]

I've always LOVED BoJack Horseman for the character development and DARK moments

[@littlecheese3798]

even if she had a terrible childhood, that still doesn’t really excuse her actions for being a neglectful, abusive mother to bojack.

[@halfblondebimbo7077]

no one said it did

[@littlecheese3798]

@@halfblondebimbo7077 I’m just saying my thoughts here. I’m not saying anyone said that did I?

[@HazbinCovenWitch]

At 13:11 My sister and I were spanked as children. I was born in the 2000, she was born in 2003. My dad once threatened to spank me with one of his belts when I little if I didn't stop supposedly "talking back." He said his dad did that to him when he was a kid.

[@StarboyJuno]

I've gone through the same and I know how sh1t it is, I hope you and your sister are doing okay now.

[@HazbinCovenWitch]

@@StarboyJuno They don't do it anymore though. We live with our parents.

[@Megamean09]

At the end, Bojack handled it right. I've been in the same position he was in her final moment of clarity: he didn't forgive her, at all. He just let go, because at that point, what's the benefit of putting more hurt into the world?

[@Cerdmasterjgcc]

I never noticed the whole ice cream motif until this video, Beatrice is a tragic character who couldn't break the cycle.

[@shaddieize]

Considering he is voiced by Lin Manuel Miranda it's not weird he "sounds like that dude from Hamilton"

[@MrIansmitchell]

“Pretty sure this was before taxis were a thing” Taxicabs were operating before 1900 in NYC and major European capitals. Whether Harper’s Landing, a fictitious summer destination in Michigan would have them, depends on how major of a place it was.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

So on the note of the name on Hollyhock's birth certificate, this is actually correct. Hollyhock wouldn't have been given a name by Henrietta as her parents would be the ones given the right to name her, and this certificate would have been sealed by the courts anyway as part of her closed adoption. I know this from my own life, I was given up for adoption as soon as I was born, and my original birth certificate listed my name as "Baby Boy" Though the fact that it WAS a closed adoption would have been unusual in 2000 and that more than the name would be the part that would possibly be considered a bit of an arm twist by Beatrice as she would have pushed Henrietta to make a clean break. My adoption was in the 80s and they were pretty common then, which is how I know this, but they started falling out in the 90s when psychologists determined they weren't always healthy. (I guess for the woman? Because I don't think I have any issues as a result of it)

[@Andromeda_cool]

37:00 I just wanna point out that "girl horse" could probably be a reference to orphaned children being named "Baby girl" / "Baby boy"... not really as an F.U. moment, but so there'd be no attachment to a baby you wouldn't be keeping. And orphanages wouldn't have to think of 100s of names for what was considered "worthless" children. Also wanna point out my mother's name on her original birth certificate was actually "FIRST NAME: Baby LAST NAME: Girl". So I know it was a practice. *Thankfully* you don't hear much about it now. (At least I sure hope they are distancing themselves from that practice.) Anyway, the more you know...

[@medbii]

Random thing I realized here: Hollyhock didn't get her diamond from Joseph Sugarman. Neither Beatrice nor Butterscotch had a diamond, so I always wondered where Bojack's came from. Then when we saw the flashbacks, it was clear to me that he got it from his grandfather, Joseph. However, Hollyhock is not related to Beatrice, so her diamond came from another relative on Butterscotch's side.

[@Alice_was-here_1999]

I relate to this show way too much… it hurts like Hell but it makes me feel a little less alone.

[@blue_roses_315]

Hi Kitty! Great video as always and I was waiting for this one as Beatrice is one of my favorite complex characters. As a person with boomer parents, I love how you tied in historical fact and how that played out in Beatrice's characters because I could see a reflection of my parents and while not nearly as bad, their upbringing influenced mine unwittingly. Now a small critique, Beatrice possibly being happy with Corbin is not a "Oh Happily Ever After Scenario" but it is one of comfort and kindness. In real life with racing and show horses, (as shown by Beatrice's stellar jumps) goats are often used as companions for the horses to keep them company, calm, steady, and feeling good. So that may be where the shows creators were coming from with her potiential to be happy. I'm a Golden Girls fan myself too and I do see a lot of Blanche with her and Bojack. I also feel if she had married Corbin, it'd be a similar situation where Beatrice grew to love Corbin deeply, but not her kids and would come to regret it. The key indicator of that was Corbin's eyes seemingly illustrious. Blanche had always said George's eyes had something in them she had never seen in anyone else's.

[@micatrustyenbie4487]

I not only sympathize with Beatrice but I relate to her despite growing up in very different times. I see her as that little girl that just wanted to feel loved and not judged for every little thing. She grew to hate herself and her life. The time frame in which she was raised is very close to my parents time and I can see how much that time affected them. Honesty, I have to say with all that my parents went through and saw at that time, I'm thankful they are where they are today in their emotional growth. They're not perfect by any means but they've grown a lot and that's all I could ever really ask from them. Beatrice is a cautionary tale and a good representation of the struggles of that time for women in particular. To this day, my mom is almost 60 and she still beats herself up about her body and calls herself damaged goods like she's just meant for consumption. My dad, still shows heavy signs of emorional denial.

[@nationalinstituteofcheese3012]

A bad childhood explains someone’s behavior. To explain is to not find justification but to understand

[@slushy711]

exactly

[@stephaniewilliams6756]

Welcome video. I also walked on eggshells at home/have abusive relatives. This video was a well-done analysis of Beatrice and her actions, and past. Keep up the good work.

[@aSUGAaddiction]

As a nurse, most of time, a person dies from not eating or drinking. When you are dying, your body shuts down slowly, and no longer needs to food or fluid. You sleep and are not awake and lucid. Most of the time, your heart stops and eventually stop breathing. I work in hospice, and its almost universal for older ppl.

[@CompComp]

Scarlet fever was pretty survivable. My grandma (who raised me) always read me the velveteen rabbit. I bought it for my son because I remember loving it. I reread it. I was like oh my grandma was expecting me to get scarlet fever too.

[@_vixis]

Love the comparisons between Beatrice and Blanche Devereaux. Blanche is my favorite golden girl so when you pointed out those references, I was surprised that I didn't see that sooner but it totally makes sense.

[@ssamerica3062]

38:15 This was actually one of the moments that felt the most unrealistic to me because we saw the whole backstory of what she went through but from Bojack's perspective he has been waiting since the episode he took her home to capture that lucid moment so he can finally tell her how much he hated her. He even takes a couple of opportunities before hand like with the doll, and this would have been directly after she drugged hollyhock, so he has the least amount of reason to give her this now especially when it's clear he's still mad at her even after she died. Also Kitty mentioned that this was the one nice thing she ever did for him but that moment sounded made up to me when I heard it. We never see it in the show and he hesitated alot. He even said in the eulogy episode that he didn't have any stories of some gesture that he can think to that would even slightly make up for the trauma he now has to deal with.

[@drrpdingo]

I loved the video and I loves that it was 44 minutes. I liked the history and commentary around Beatrice's life. She was defiantly a product of her time from both men and women in her life. I liked the bit about Bojacks name, despite jack literally being in both names I never made the connection between Bojack and Crackerjack, somehow I just thought it was normal and didn't notice. Beatrice treated Bojack a lot like how my mom treated me but I never got to learn my mothers backstory because she was mean and I didn't care. But seeing Beatrice have all that past trauma always resonated with me. This video is a treat thanks for making it.

[@moxxiedemongamer3019]

I'd find Beatrice Horseman to be one of the Tragic characters within BoJack Horseman

[@Theverytiredgirl1]

Well Crackerjack sounds like Lin Manuel-Miranda because it is him lol

[@Dogmaguy74]

*Wipes tears* last thing i wanted to see is my dad's past...

[@hombreg1]

We must mourn the loss of that which is good, without forgiving the bad that its loss caused.

[@jfournerat1274]

You know what is also messed up. Joseph Sugarman had anti semtic views as he blamed Jewish people for causing their own suffering and Crackerjacks death even though they had nothing to do with it. Although It was common at the time it was still messed up and Joseph shared the same views as Hitler and the Nazis that killed his son thus making him no better than they were and he said that after the war in Europe had ended and the full horrors of the Holocaust were seen by Allied and American soldiers and that he likely heard of the Holocaust he continued to say those offensive things towards Jewish people.

[@jfournerat1274]

Now Obviously The Holocaust still happened in Bojack Horseman just like it did really happen in real life as WW2 was referenced with Crackerjack being enlisted to fight in the European theater and the Nazis were mentioned both through Crackerjack and Joseph and later Joseph mentioned Adolf Hitler and also mentioned Hitlers well known anti semtic beliefs towards Jewish people and the Holocaust took place during WW2 as it lasted from 1941 to 1945 so it is almost certain that the Holocaust still happened in the Bojack Horseman tv show.

[@thezeldadragon6202]

Watching Bojack Horseman alongside The Owl-house and hearing Beatrice’s voice was…jarring

[@ghost_anna_reads787]

I get a lot of people hate her, but i grew up sround people like her. They never learned to talk about ferlings, admit when they are wrong, follow feelings, or even cry in public. They were meant to fit into a mold and that is it. When Beatrice's mom lost it at the death of her brother Cracker Jack, her dad had her mom labotomized brcause "what else is yhere to do?" They arent good people, but we shouldnt just hate them, let us learn from them.

[@beanpasteposts]

I can’t believe I love both Bojack and TOH and I never once realized Beatrice and Eda both have the same voice actor until you mentioned it.

[@acacacacacacaccaca7666]

One of the things that go overlooked is that Bojack knew about Crackerjack even tho he obviously didn't meet him and he knew about the summer house and the songs which means Beatrice must have told him about it so not only did she keep some good memories but she also shared them with Bojack

[@frederikspudnik1792]

I like how at around a minute and a half into the first episode of the first season, Bojack says, "it's not Ibsen, sure..."

[@ilikemetoo3088]

Now I have a new question, what if her brother didn't die? He looked like someone who loved his sister very much. Maybe that would change her.

[@nidohime6233]

Did anyone notice how Beatrice didn't seem to never have friends? She does mention some women from a club, but knowing how snooty they tend to be (including Beatrice) I wouldn't be surprised if they wheren't either. 30:20 You would be surprised how abortion was common even back then. Just because it was ilegal it didn't stopped people for doing it. Not only that but for many women the stigma of getting pregnant while unmarried was way worse than having an abortion, specially from someone of high class like Beatrice. There was also the option to go to her "aunt's farm" and deliver the baby there while going back home like nothing happend while her child is put to adoption or even brought back and passing as her new little brother. Awful but it happend, like Jack Nicholson finding out his mother and sister are actually his grandma and real mother. 32:30 Is more in character than you might think, because then Joseph can step on Butterscotch's pride whenever he wants as a revenge for sleeping with his daughter.

[@thatgrumpychick4928]

It comes down to do you want to sink to your abusers level or do you want to be a better person and parent than what came before? A lot of people ask how a mother could hate or abuse her kids, a from personal experience on the receiving end, it's very easy. My mother was like Beatrice but with more menace and physical abuse sprinkled in. My mother was cruel, vindictive, spiteful and just downright unlikable. Still is as far as I'm aware. There were points in my childhood were I thought to myself I can't wait to be a parent so then I can be mean and in control like my mother. Don't worry I've done a lot of growing, healing and maturing since I escaped. What I'm getting at is it's very very easy to be nasty and abusive to your kids even if you had a "normal" childhood.

[@RedAxeDisciple]

Beatrice is to me,, the best character of Bojack Horseman,, shes everything that the show is,, a terrible person with who we can feel empathy,, shes such a mean and terrible mother,, but all of this would have never happened if is father didnt litterally destroy is own wife,, and for Joseph,, he would have never do that if he wasnt raise by really stricted point of view peoples,, i love Joseph,, he fail but at least he tried

[@F66x]

Just a quick nitpick about the draft part, yes it seems like he was swayed by propaganda, but it's basically considered a felony (especially back then) to not register for the draft and especially if they called you to be drafted. For example, Muhammad Ali almost went to prison for refusing to be drafted because he opposed the Vietnam war (this is one of the reasons he's one of my favorite historical figures though, or at least one that's interesting to me).

[@justayoutubersimp]

13:04 I Relate To That Too Much, I'm A Gen Z Kid That Has Boomer (Born In The 60s) Parents... They Don't 'Believe' That Depression Is Serious, You're A Failure If You Have Autism (Or Any Other 'Disorder' On The Spectrum), Non Muscular Men Are 'Sissys', Short Haired Women Are 'Too Manly', And My Mom Has Told Me Many Times To 'Not To Rupture My Uterus' Because I Need Kids And Family (Funny Enough That She Hates Me And Is An Unhappy Marriage) Sucks For Me That I'm Everything Mentioned Above, Huh? But Still, You're Very Right About Time Periods And Abusive Beliefs

[@webby3109]

I kinda felt sorry for Beatrice sometimes, because she was abused by her father, watched her mother basically become a shell of herself, her brother who she loved was killed in the war, and she was stuck in a marriage with a man she didn’t love instead of a man she could’ve associated with more because he was just like her because she was pregnant with bojack. But I couldn’t feel bad for her most of the time because she just kept perpetuating the abuse and sadness of her past.

[@MrIansmitchell]

“Signed up for the draft” That’s not how that works. Crackerjack enlisted. Same as anyone in the armed forces today.

[@moxxiedemongamer3019]

I'd see BoJack Horseman as one of the Best Adult Cartoons on Netflix that has both Humor Heart and character development

[@guywiththeweirdspellingoflogen]

21:01 Random question about this part, but do you think that, in the bojack universe, honey’s operation could’ve gone particularly badly because the surgery was designed with human proportions in mind, like in our universe? Like maybe in ‘45 they were still perfecting the surgery for other animals, and that’s why honey’s scar is in the wrong spot? Idk, just thought of that headcanon watching this, but that would be a really cool extra layer of worldbuilding.

[@pixiemoss666]

one minute in and i'm already convinced you're a creator whose channel I will really like. subscribed

[@mammon8683]

Pray for her soul nowadays and press "F" If you still respect her.

[@zoonal-gg]

F

[@crouchingidiot]

I think Beatrice is so incredibly complicated and multifaceted that it’s hard to say how I feel about her. What she’s done is explainable but not excusable

[@Night-Lord]

It does kinda spit in the face of the idea of the Nobel *Peace* Prize when it’s awarded for a procedure that is effectively just jamming an ice pick in someone’s brain and wiggling it around for a bit basically at random. Very peaceful.

[@sungexpression9093]

Well it was given to the person who researched it not the person who popularized it

[@carolyns4519]

I think it was in the medicine category, not peace. Still shouldn't have even been nominated!

[@sungexpression9093]

@@carolyns4519 I mean I don’t think it was a good surgery but I do think it was an interesting study. The Nobel prize winner wasn’t the person doing the operations on a bunch of people.

[@Palepetal]

Joseph was not threatening to lobotomize Beatrice during the scarlet fever situation. Joseph even said he regretted having Honey lobotomized. He was warning her against being too emotional, or she may become "hysterical" like her mother and endanger others. Child Beatrice took it to mean she would be lobotomized too but of course Joseph was not going to. Not to say Joseph should have been more delicate with the situation. He should have.

[@bakugoukatsukitheonlyrealo383]

I do feel sorry for her because of a childhood but I don't like how she did Bojack even though he turned out to be an ass so it's just a recycle it's sad actually

[@seshuansaurc]

waittt this is weird.... it's been a while (I'd say like 5 years) since I really connected with a KZbinr and have finished off the video with "I want to be friends with this person in real life" vibes. all of your opinions align with me and your little side comments are something that I'd want to discuss in further depth with a friend while simultaneously making me laugh. just subbed!

[@Terminalsanity]

Oof the crying thing hits me where I live, the capacity for me to cry for myself has nearly been conditioned out of me(Not by my parents persay though their routine absence/neglect was certainly a factor), its way easier for me to cry for others than myself.

[@colinbanning9416]

Has anyone ever pointed out to you, in comments or, say, a doctors, that your fear of criticism is likely an offspring of gelatophobia?

[@Fairygoblet]

it amazes me how much hate can be between two people who love each other.

[@VanNessy97]

Beatrice with Eda's lines is always gold

[@steviebeevie]

Did anyone notice how Beatrice holds Henrietta's hand while giving birth while she thinks about her own birth completely alone? I love and hate it because we wee she IS capable of empathy in her later life, even while being so cruel but it seems like its only given to Henrietta because she sees herself and a way to save herself. But we don't really see this for her son 😞

[@aikaameya3930]

Beatrice strikes that perfect balance of feeling endlessly sorry for her and yet still hating 90% of her actions. I hate her, but I wish she didn't have the life she got, at the same time, the show doesn't really redeem her, just explains her, she doesn't deserve forgiveness, but I can still feel empathy and feel sorrow for her. It's jarring

[@MrIansmitchell]

I think that Beatrice‘a debutante ball was in Indiana. That’s where Joseph worked and the skyline looks like Indianapolis

[@rndmpinkiepie64]

"Crying is stupid" is still horrible but hilarious when he says that

[@the-nina-beans88]

1:12 - 1:23 Honestly that the only part of the series where I felt they play up on the animal part of the anthro horses ( and the scene of a herd of them running in the desert) Princess Carolyn she a cat and you see her bitterly land on her feet and have a scratching post with mouse toy to bap at. Mr peanutbutter. If he had a tail you would see he carries the traits of a happy Labrador dog and has his dog like moments. Heck even the male seahorse character you see him go into labor due to the real life male Seahorses birthing out the babies With bojack. I don’t see why he’s a horse unless you just telling the longest “ why the long face” joke

[@amharbinger]

A lot of people say that Beatrice would've been happier with Corbin but would Corbin be happy with Beatrice? No idea if Corbin's kindness would've been enough to change her but all things considered would he accepted raising someone else's kid? Or Beatrice have maintained her broken state and eventually driven Corbin away or raised Bojack in the same way? He was a nice guy but everyone has a limit, and Beatrice is know for testing the limits of a person.

[@twiztidfreekshow199]

Bojack in the sailor suit singing the lollipop song Shirley temple "on the good ship lollipop" ;)

[@cameronspalding9792]

@27:51 What she said reminds me of Free Churro when one of the fans noticed if the coffee cup was in one shot and not in another shot and asked if was done on purpose.

[@AlexTheGreatCreates]

Sorry to ruin it for ya, but Bojack is a name that literally means “horse” . He’s Horse Horseman 😅

[@fatcat5817]

*Everywhere at the end of time plays*

[@diorlipoilwanter6056]

There is no way she just said it’s not as deep as ZOOTOPIA