What's so good about immersive sims?

This video is a re-post as I consolidate content from my old Xbox channel. Basically this channel is general gaming stuff and that channel is just Xbox stuff

[@WVRLORD]

Man’s just released a video where he was hyped for Redfall being a good immersive sim, I’m sorry for your losss brother 😂

[@SolidSnake240]

I wish Immsersive Sims actually sold well enough to justify making more. Easily some of my favorite style of games. Also how is Prey being considered an immersive sim a controversial take? That game is widely cited as one of the best and was clearly built as one.

[@joeabernathy5402]

You likely won't see big budget ImSims on console anymore, but on PC there are plenty of indies keeping them alive.

[@biggusotongus1121]

Sadly some of these biggest Immersive Sims ips now are owned by Square Enix, Bethesda, or Embracer. We likely won't see anymore of Deus Ex, Prey, Dishonored, or Thief for quite a long time. System Shock remake gave me hopes though. Then that IoI's 007 game could feature some immersive sims elements like their recent Hitman games (I don't really care that they're not considered immersive sims for some people, they scratch the same itch to me). I so want to see the continuation of Mandkind Divided after that stupid-obviously cut for future sequel(s) story. But all hopes seems lost now lol.

[@biggusotongus1121]

Also Arkane Austin being fed with Redfall like that just to be closed is such a waste, they could've made a new immersive sims ip or something.

[@zeldagamer5651]

Real

[@Wenjo936]

The original thief series is definitely an immersive sim. Sure you might not talk to npc, but you definitely influnce the environment. You have ropes, moss, hidden levers, dialogue hints. Also id say dishonored is way more open ended level design than you give it credit for. If you really think the dishonored is linear, thats on YOU. If you play dishonored with a different skillset you would approach levels differently. Dishonored is way more open ended with its environmental traversal. You change, not the environment. You dont need boxes to move when you teleport, turn into a rat. If anything the final decisions you make that are yes/no is the linear thing.

[@shinmegamisensei1855]

Poor guy was excited for redfall :(

[@THExRISER]

0:25 This aged.

[@shadowelite7]

You should look into the first 3 immersive sims which Warren Spector worked on before making Deus Ex. The very first Immersive Sim is Ultima Underworld, the 2nd which has influenced many Immersive Sims is System Shock and the 3rd which also was a pioneer in 3D stealth is Thief.

[@ultronburgundy1581]

Thief was so, so good. I absolutely adore the Dishonored series but I don't think it would exist without Thief.

[@jamesstewart7628]

Seriously, I'm shocked he never mentioned System Shock at all. If he hasn't played it, he honestly owes it to himself to play it. Also, if he is only a console player the remake just released it's console version, so he has no reason to not play it.

[@AliHeydarizadeh]

I really appreciate the passion you put into these videos discussing the interesting design philosophy of immersive simulations I would also like to point out that the coining the term Immersive Sim is attributed to Doug Church who was one of the most influential people in shaping the idea of immersive simulations as well as the importance of emergent gameplay. He was the lead designer of the original System Shock, a game that Warren Spector was involved with its development as well. He also was one of the key figures in the original Thief project and it seems that he was directly influential to the design ideas that were later on adopted by Harvey Smith (lead designer on Deus Ex) and Ken Levine (creative lead on Bioshock). Interesting to note for me personally is the fact that all these people were former members at the two branches of Looking Glass studios along with many others and prior to that many of these people including Spector himself worked at Origin Systems (where for instance, Raphaël Colantonio, the founder of Arkane Studios collaborated with as a fan according to wikipedia)

[@Bloodocean77]

The Thief games and Arx fatalis are my favorite games ever for this reason they really do feel different to other games and give so much freedom to the player.

[@Wenjo936]

I couldn't think of anything besides thief. But Arx is wild. He would hate it

[@austinfoyt]

I love immersive sims. I disagree with a lot of your thoughts. Immersive sims don’t have to be first person. Weird West is marketed as an immersive sim, and I would argue that zomboid is at least to an extent one as well. I also disagree with thoughts on dishonored, as in 2 you can overhear convos opening up new options, bribe people, break down doors, etc

[@tero581]

Cyberpunk 2077, and Hitman are phenomenal.

[@Ocean5ix]

I would argue the Dishonored games are actually closer to the original Deus Ex than the Deus Ex sequels. The first DX had huge open ended areas with multiple different buildings, all with their own networks of vents and doors to hack. I feel like in recent DX games, most if not all missions take place in very confined areas like compounds, alleyways, apartments etc. Dishonored brings back that open ended playground. And while you're right that there's not a lot of "box stacking" in Dishonored, it makes up for it with the powers, specially Blink. When you get that perfect angle and perfect pixel to make an unintended teleport in Dishnored, it gives me the same feeling as making a a stair with the gloo gun or stacking boxes in Deus Ex. Well, now that I think about it, you probably don't count Dishonored as an Immersive Sim because you didn't play (or just didn't mention) the other big "founder" of the Immersive Sim design philosophy, Thief. Deus Ex isn't the right comparison because these games kinda follow their own family tree. Like, System Shock 2 -> Prey, Thief -> Dishonored, Deux Ex..... -> Adam Jensen Deus Ex. I would also argue that Immersive Sim isn't exactly a "genre" but a design philosophy. And I think that late in your video you come very close to crossing the border between systemic and mechanic agency and role playing. An Immersive Sim can be an RPG (like in the recent Deus Ex game) but not all RPGs are immersive sims just because you can make choices and kill npcs. But at the same time, I would say the design philosophy isn't "trapped" in the first person perspective, I perosnally definitely consider the recent Hitman trilogy immersive sims.

[@andypantsgaming]

Bro did you even play Mankind Divided? Has a bigger open hub area than any dishonored game

[@Wenjo936]

Did you read his comment? It's not about the hub

[@Ocean5ix]

@@andypantsgaming There is a persistent hub or I'd say "small open world" areas in the newer Deus Ex games.. which is completely different to how the original Deus Ex had huge open MISSION areas. Most of the streets and public squares in Mankind Divided are flavor (and I love it) but when you're playing a main or side quest, it quickly funnels you into a relatively small, claustrophobic play area compared to the original DX, Thief and Dishonored. There is nothing in Mankind Divided that compares to the Dunwall Streets, Karnaka streets, which are levels filled with obstacles. They aren't just there for the player to walk forward and reach the next mission, they ARE the mission. Hell, the Deathloop maps are the same thing.

[@iamjustsimplysimplistic]

Bad news bout redfall.

[@larsbjrnson3101]

It's my favorite genra because I can replay an immsim over and over in different ways with different choices, and they are short and linear with satisfying gameplay.

[@ZontarDow]

Life is an immersive sim. Great graphics but too much bad writing and boring gameplay tbh.

[@p5rsona]

hahaha for real, definitely could use mods

[@arsenylee7805]

And no sl😂

[@quaker5712]

I wonder if the Gloo gun in Prey is inspired by mine climbing from Deus Ex? Either way the Gloo gun is genius multipurpose design.

[@andypantsgaming]

facts

[@arsenylee7805]

Man I love this channel and your voice. Even though I’m not a native English speaker, I can clearly understand every word you’re saying. Have you ever been a radio host before? I really enjoy playing immersive sims too. Your videos are amazing-well-organized and clear. Keep up the great work, and I believe you’ll achieve great success! ❤️❤️

[@andypantsgaming]

Wow i have not but thank you

[@CheeseTriangles]

Fuck do I love sneaking through vents.

[@heavyartillery-qm5hu]

Apparently nothing since they all died

[@joeabernathy5402]

They're not dead, they're just never going to be triple A console mainstream. Cruelty Squad, Gloomwood, Consortium The Tower, and Atomic Heart are all carrying the torch.

[@user-hq7js2wf7h]

Dishorned is an immersive sim for sure tho

[@permanentlyexperimental3691]

Prey was awesome.

[@sassydasasquatch608]

the definition just sounds like a sandbox game

[@thesidneychan]

That's why it's notoriously difficult to describe. You could play Prey, Thief, Ctrl Alt Ego, which are all different yet you can "feel" it's an immersive sim.

[@Ocean5ix]

He's not defining it that well. An Immersive Sim presents you with a problem, like "Get into this office". Most genres will have the devs programming "intended" ways to get into the office depending on your build, like hacking the door code, finding a vent, kicking the door open, turning into a pen and passing under the door. Immersive Sims do this but they don't stop at that. They don't craft problems with just specific solutions, they give you tools with multiple purposes throughout the entire game and if you solve the problem in a way that wasn't intended (bugs and glitches not included) they applaud and incentivize the player to keep trying different ways. What if instead of all the options I mentioned in the first paragraph, you could grab the attention of a monster, stay in front of the door and let him shoot a laser beam at it to destroy it? What if you can go back to previous rooms you've explored, bring back multiple boxes and stack them, then jump on top of them to enter through an opening on the ceiling? A good example of an Immersive Sim moment in a non-immersive sim game is the recent Zelda games. The game tells you "hey, this game is physics based" and "this game accounts for metal conducting electricity". Those are established rules or "systems" that are part of the game. The thing is, later in the game you find a puzzle that requires you to conduct energy in a straight line to open a door. You can just use the intended solution of putting steel balls in each respective slot.......or you can take every single metal item in your inventory, drop and place them in a straight like and watch the electricity go through all of them and power the door. And THAT is precisely what Immersive Sims are. It's a game that gives you tools for a problem you have, but lets you use it to solve other problems that don't necessarily have anything to do with that tool. It makes you feel like you're outsmarting the developers.

[@sassydasasquatch608]

@@Ocean5ix ah right thanks that makes more sense

[@Tehgamerstation]

I'm an immersive simp

[@proggz39]

You really just used the air vent example as your first point. I can’t even…

[@mynameisben123]

What’s wrong with that?

[@ElliottTrout]

calling Prey the perfect definition of an immsim is not controversial at all lol. quite the opposite actually.

[@sharpiesharpie8356]

I think I watched this last week is this a reupload great video will watch again lol

[@andypantsgaming]

Lol. Sorry I'm moving videos from my Xbox account to this one 🤣

[@sharpiesharpie8356]

@@andypantsgaming ok I thought I was tripping lol great videos by the way please update this topic immersive sims are my favorite genre didn’t realize that this was the name of the genre lol is atomic heart like a immersive sim ? Like dishonored or deus ex type of game ?

[@merccc1]

Dishonored is definitely a immersive sim. Not every game will have the same systems and player agency options which is from what I heard a big part of why you did not include games like it. Which I very much disagree with. Sure, you don't so much as change the environment or talk your way about things, but you do have other systems at play. I am a little rusty on memory of the games details, but if I recall you had the choice of pathing, combat or stealth or a mix, the ability to use many abilities in a wide WIDE range of different creative ways and situations all based on the players choice and creativity, not to mention if I recall things like rats and optional level interactable features, like keycards/doors and all that I believe. (I need to revisit I am realizing. xD) With abilities, you can use them to avoid and maneuver in all sorts of ways. Similarly in combat you had tons of ways to deal with and take out opponents. Not to mention you had areas that a guard may block you off from, but you could choose various other methods to go anyway. Like just fighting inwards, sneaking in various routes, using powers for the myriad of choices I cannot even begin to fully list. I mean, you can freeze people in the air and use them as platforms, freeze time and have them shoot themselves, and so much more. I do not know how you could say something like that isn't an immersive sim. A normal game would just cone of cold or frost bolt basically just for damage or slight slow, but this gives you a tool belt of abilities that can be chained together and used in vastly different situations and many creative ways. At best you could maybe say it is a lighter immersive sim, and others like deus ex and prey are heavier ones maybe. It simply uses a different selection of systems that it focuses on to allow for that immersive sim player expression. I just think immersive sims are few and number so they share that similarity of systems, kinda like they are in their infancy. The list is actually pretty small if I recall for the genuine immersive sims. I think limiting them to having the exact same systems is not goof for creativity and diverse experiences. Player agency and emergent gameplay seem to be what should be the primary big identifiers of an immersive sim.

[@andypantsgaming]

The guy who created Prey and is one of the creators of the immersive sim specifically said in an interview BOTW is not an immersive sim. He highlighted some specific thing from the game that made it not an immersive sim

[@alterablebark54]

Wtf happened to the editing in the conclusion?

[@user-hq7js2wf7h]

Deathloop isnt an immersive sim surely

[@jameswalterthethird]

Literally the amount of hate you give jrpgs is funny when you yourself like a niche genre lol

[@tero581]

Boring ass shit unless there are heavy action focused like the souls games, or if there is strategy like Fire Emblem.

[@ItsDatCajunStuff]

This genre consistently wins critical acclaim but they just don't sell very well, and big publishers are getting scared off. I don't think it's that gamers aren't intelligent or patient enough, but that these games are complex and require a level of investment that many other genres don't. I wonder if we'll need to rely on indie developers to carry the torch, assuming they could actually secure a budget to make one of these.

[@Ocean5ix]

To me it's just a marketing issue. These games aren't action packed or good enough (at being a shooter) to compete with games like Call of Duty or Doom, but they're also not deep enough to be considered great RPGs. A FPS RPG just isn't something easy to market. It would be easy if they marketed a game like Prey as "It's the metroidvania aspect of a game like Castlevania + survival horror elements with an open ended but contained environment and back tracking of Resident Evil 2 + simplified but effective skill system from RPGs + FPS gameplay, all in one package." I think that would get a lot more attention and it's a good description of what the game is.

[@mushypee1]

Where's your Hellblade 2 review!!!! Hellblade 2 is. Took me 5hrs and 40 minutes to complete. I'd say 4/5 was just pushing the stick up and the rest is just puzzles, combat and.its a a lot more linear than the previous game. The 1st game does everything better. Combat, puzzles, level design, exploration and puzzles. The only difference is the fidelity. They seem to have regressed from the 1st game. Just because it's a walking simulator cinematic experience doesn't mean they couldn't have added more gameplay. It's a devissive game and the Reviews/Metacritic scores reflects that. So do the.lack of players on Steam, currently. I just don't know why they can't put out a banger or a universally acclaimed game. This is their 4th bite at the cherry i with 4 first part Xbox Studios games in 1 year. Redfall, Starfield, Forza and Now HB 2 all in some way or another have not hit the heights that were expected of them. Xbox just can't catch a break. I bet they're happy that the ABK deal went.rhough so they can rely on COD to help since their studios can't seem to produce a game that moves the needle or garners new subs to Gamepass.... Let's keep fingers crossed that it works. Let's hope a 3rd party juggernaut like COD saves the day.

[@andypantsgaming]

The new game is objectively better in almost every way than the first. Yet the review scores show what a deep pro-Playstation bias our industry has.

[@mushypee1]

Yep, I.guess each to theiir own . For me it was enjoyable as a spectacle , but not for gameplay I don't think this is an Xbox Tax situation. I just think it's a game you love or hate, Hence the scores.

[@jameswalterthethird]

Helldivers 2 is great…..how did you complete a live service game in 5 hours? 😊

[@mushypee1]

Lol, 5 hrs and 40 mins to be precise. Just pressed the stick up for 4 and half hours. Had some popcorn. It was like a trip to the cinema

[@andypantsgaming]

@@jameswalterthethird Didn't play Helldivers 2 for more than about 2 hours. Very derivative of gears

[@Monanniverse]

Why don't you give System Shock 1 & 2 a go?

[@andypantsgaming]

I need to