What's the Best Initiative for YOUR TTRPG Game?

[@afoaa]

I really love the year zero initiative. You draw cards with values from 1 to 10 and count upwards during a round. So far so good, but what is new is that players that haven’t acted yet can swap cards. My players constantly use this to coordinate actions like i give you my low card so you can open the door for me before my turn. Initiative becomes a group event instead or individual events.

[@TheHegetzu]

Wow that's actually really creative!

[@TheSavageGoose]

While I am glad you mentioned Deadlands, you could have gone so much more into it. For those want to know, current Deadlands uses the Savage Worlds Adventure Edition Ruleset - Every round each character draws a card from the deck and the highest card goes first. Some abilities and hindrances let you go faster or slower. Savage Worlds in my personal favorite system all around.

[@zraal3759]

Was going to say the swade savage worlds card initiative as well. You touched on thus, but the cards are fully worked into the system not just tacked on for initive. I also like that with the deck of cards a player us handed a card. The fact the player gets a handout seems to make the player more engaged.

[@tamwin5]

The MCDM RPG has an intiative system I've been loving. It doesn't really have a unified name, but I've been referring to it as "Ping Pong Initiative". There's a dice roll to determine which side goes first, but after that it just alternates heroes vs monsters. When it's the players turn, they decide who goes next, no restrictions other than the obvious can only go once a round. Similarly, the GM picks a monster or group of monsters to go. It's very flexible, very tactical, and keeps the players constantly engaged with the fight. No "scroll on my turn for 15 mins until my turn comes up again".

[@58002]

I really like how Werewolf handled combat. It successfully makes it feel like each round of action happen simultaneously. Everyone rolls initiative, then there's two phases. Phase 2 everyone declares their action, starting with lowest initiative player, up to highest. Phase 2, everyone rolls to perform their actions, starting with highest initiative player, going down. the idea is that the player with lower initiative is slower to react, giving higher initiative players opportunity to act first. The faster players "saw" what was coming from the slower players and chose/performed their actions accordingly. By making the higher initiative players declare last, they have the most information to base their action on.

[@tomdavis3878]

One game that has a really unique initiative system that I like is Emberwind. It's built around a party of 4 heroes (though it supports up to six), and eight initiative slots that alternate between players and monsters, with the weakest monsters going first so that in the vast majority of cases they haven't been killed before getting to do something (e.g., Player A, then Weakest Monsters, then Player B, then Stronger Monsters; each Monster is placed into a group that determines their initiative slot). Players pick which slot they want to be in at the beginning of each round, with the limitation that you can't have more than one player in any slot until all slots have at least one player in them. It's a nice rules-light initiative system that allows for a good amount of player choice, and they've actually done some game design around it: they have a Tactician class that is basically a support martial, but gets access to abilities that are stronger than normal abilities *but require you to be in a particular initiative slot to use.* It really effectively simulates the feel of a battlefield tactician maneuvering themself and their allies into winning strategic positions.

[@rango5537]

Fung shui has a spiral initiative where you roll 1d6 and add your initative bonus. You go down the initiative order players and creatures perform actions you reduce your initiative by the actions spent. So if I have initiative of 10 spend 3 actions it goes to 7. We then follow initiative down 9 and 8. Upon 7 it’s my go again. Once the initative is down to 0 roll again.

[@savory_]

The initiative system I made for a few games I'm working on makes initiative a "pass/fail" test for players and enemies. Players who passed go first, in any order they decide. Then enemies who pass go second in any order the GM decides. Then players who failed go in any order, and then Enemies who failed. You roll every round but this makes it quick and I like players working together to decide what order they act in for teamwork. The DC for the initiative test is usually the same but more difficult encounters or being ambushed raises it.

[@geoffreyperrin4347]

I was able to do the "roll initiative every round" thing once and liked it, but only because it happened in an instant. I used fantasy grounds and if your players put enough info into their character sheets there is a setting for that rule and as soon as you move to the next person in initiative after the last person it does it in under a second

[@rommdan2716]

The best IMO is Savage Worlds, the Card initiative system is so good for the Weird West feeling of Deadlands and other similar games

[@MrJerks93]

Also Very fast and people can just throw in their cards so no other trackers are needed.

[@aydentisdale4116]

I have been working on a hybrid between dc20 and daggerheart. everyone has 4 action points. there is a roll for initiative but its for which side acts first. anyone can act if their side won initiative, but if you fail a combat roll, or if you roll with a certain amount of chaos ( chaos being a mechanic for the checks in my system), the other side gains initiative. the same goes for when the opposing side is acting. if they fail a roll or roll with chaos, your team gains initiative. When gaining initiative again, the characters with the highest action points get to act first.

[@kidneytheft8285]

My group uses a speed score 1 being the fastest and 20 or so being maxed. It changes base on equipment, weapons, Str, and Dex. So it can change during combat with weapon switches but most of the time the players use the same in hand items and equipment the whole fight. Works pretty well for us as everyone kinda knows their order. I should say equipment plays a bigger part then stats do so shifting your order is more a battle prep thing.

[@marcbennett9232]

I've been enjoying your videos, so many good games that need exposure. Here are some initiative types you missed. Shadowrun, don't remember edition, add the sum of several rolled dice, high to low, afterwords, everyone loses 10 initiative and start from the top. Repeat until everyone hits 0. So if you roll 26 you get to act at 26, 16 and 6. Exalted second edition, each action has a speed. After you act, you have to wait a number of "ticks" equal to the speed then you can act again. Similar to one you mentioned, except you don't decide ahead of time what you do. Torg uses a card flip, each round either all players or all monsters take turns. It can change each round so you can get back to back. Paranoia perfect edition, everyone acts in order of security clearance... Because higher clearance citizens are more trustworthy. I'm designing an RPG where your turn is subdivided into segments, you draw initiative tokens from a bag, if it's yours, you do some things. Once the bag is empty refill and redraw.

[@SabbothArt]

Interesting info and topic, the most interesting portion was the end regarding the lack of initiative with resources. I've recently started my journey to making my own TTRPG and trying to make a simple but flexible initiative system that feels satisfying and not annoying to play through has been one of the most challenging aspects. Considering that initiative is so heavily tied to action economy and action economy is so heavily tied to balance and game feel, it's definitely a foundation that effects so many other systems! My current plan is a static initiative tied to a speed stat with no rolling, the fastest character always goes first but may delay if they want to see what someone else does before making their decisions. I have other systems that help let slower players deal with faster enemies and so far it doesn't feel TERRIBLE but I'll definitely need to push it to its limits before deciding to keep it. Gonna rope my 5e players into play testing it some day. :P By the way, do you guys have anything like a discord? Been enjoying these discussions quite a bit!

[@WhatisTableTop]

@@SabbothArt not yet! It is something we are considering! - Charles

[@justinblocker730]

Missiles go first, Melee goes second, Magic goes last. So you can shoot a bow then switch to melee, but after dropping your bow you have to stop and go pick it up. You can shoot a bow while starting a spell chant, just don't get hit while chanting otherwise spell fails/misfires will happen. Can chant while swinging sword, again not getting hit will be hard.

[@SerifSansSerif]

I'm kind of thinking of an initiative tied to action economy and getting bonus to a speed skill. So you can do a roll to set the start initiative, give 3 action points to spend on movement or action (different actions have different costs, some costing slightly more than you might have in 1 round), and extra action points for every 2-3 points given to speed. You can spend (doing none, one or more actions)or hold points till the next round as you see fit, (accessing those higher cost but more damaging actions). Next.round's initiative starts with highest action points for that turn, so holding.points can also let you go first next round, but at the cost of doing less the previous round.

[@SerifSansSerif]

Also one thing that D&D does that is REALLY fantastic and i would keep is "holding actions" which lets you do something out of turn order, BUT only if the trigger condition happens, and should it not happen, the action just ends up wasted.

[@DawnOfElaris]

A system I've been using for D&D (2e) that has been working well is one I got from 3d6 Down the Line, though I believe it was made by Necrotic Gnome originally for OSE. Each side rolls 1d6, with the higher number going first. All members of each side go at the same time, so it facilitates group tactics well and theres always a good chance for either side to go first, regardless of stats. For AD&D, you declare spells and the like before rolling initiative, but I've used it in 5e and that part is easy enough to just drop since in that system you can move, cast a spell, and you don't start casting the spell until the very second you cast it so you dont have a chance of losing it under normal conditions. I have given some very powerful or otherwise very quick creatures, such as quicklings, a +1 or even +2 to the initiative roll and thats as much adjustment as it needs to be very noticeable for the players.

[@googiegress]

It would really keep everyone at the table if initiative worked like this: DM has a list of all actors in the combat. DM rolls who goes next. When they go, strike them from the list and roll again. You wouldn't know when your turn was coming until the moment it came. To reflect PCs having varying initiative modifiers, just give characters multiple slots. Like so: Billy the Average Billy Jim Suckmagic the Slow Gutboy the Quick Gutboy Gutboy Then you're rolling d6. If Gutboy comes up first, you strike all three entries for him. It'd be super quick and easy as a virtual tabletop plugin or in Excel. A similar quick method at the table would be a bag of tokens. Billy the Average puts two of his tokens in the bag. Jim puts in 1. Gutboy puts in 3. DM draws a token. If Gutboy's token comes out first, have him act, set his token down, and if you re-pull a Gutboy next just stack it on Gutboy's pile and immediately draw again. If you wanted "group initiative" version of this, just add up all the PCs and put that many tokens in the bag. Same with the monsters. Pull a token. If you get any PC token, any PC the group elects can step up and take their turn. Then discard that token. If everyone on one side has somehow gone (for example, if there's 30 Orcs and 3 Hobbit PCs, and you pulled 4 Orcs in a row, 1 Hobbit, 1 Hobbit, 3 Orcs, 1 Hobbit), then just have the whole remaining side go because all their tokens are still in the bag. This token bag thing is neat because players can paint their own tokens if they're crafty or download pics. You can use mini poker chips as tokens and you can get as many of those as you would ever need for a couple bucks at a thrift store. What this doesn't do is reflect some PCs being fast and others slow. One approach would be if one side is slower, toss in a few more blank tokens of their color. They have to burn through that many drawn tokens before any of them get to go. This is perfect if you don't mind averaging the initiative speeds of the members of a side. Anyway, I got the token bag initiative idea from a wargamer channel that posts Bolt Action matches, Tabletop CP. One side benefit of the token method for them is you place the token down next to a unit when it has acted, so you know which units have already gone and can't go again until next round.

[@dungeondr]

My own system takes a somewhat different approach by not assuming a specific initiative system: only that every character in a conflict gets one turn per round. This intentionally allows groups to put in place the initiative system which works best for them since no single initiative system will work for every table. The default system however consists of a coin toss (d20 roll high) to determine whether GM or Players act first, and play alternates between GM and Players in an order of each side's choosing until all Characters have acted: however the system specifically does not have rules which interact with that form of initiative. A d&d style or, to an extent, a Pbta style initiative would equally work. The system self balances for different initiative systems by having no limit on reactions (but once per turn), which for example may be used to make counter attacks on missed hits. This idea is specifically taken from the Fire Emblem series as it helps emphasize the importance of both Player and Enemy phases during a conflict, evening out the quite swingy group initiative approach.

[@EasyQuests]

I currently run a Dungeon World campaign. I'm a big fan of no initiative for it! It can make combat feel really exciting and instead of blanketly asking the whole group what they are doing - most of the time I ask a player directly. Or I'll say "yes you can do that but let me come back" and then shift spotlight to another player first.

[@ShadowEclipex]

For my initiative system I just TTRPG system is super simple flexible player turns, then enemies' turn. Letting the players decide when they take their actions during the round. It's still turn based, but I have it opened for the players to discuss and strategize together about what to do. Each player has a set amount of Action points that limits what they can do, but they are pretty much allowed to spend their points at any point in the round. (I guess it sounds kinda similar to Dagger Heart, just without the AP swapping/fear thing) Perhaps I might have rolls to see what side will get first actions, the system is still in early playtesting so I can play around with different concepts, but overall I do like the idea of letting the players have more cooperative decision making. I might have to try a game where the roll every round to decide what side goes first. Could add some fun unexpected variations to the fights. If I do go with the roll at the start of every round I'd just have it be determined by the highest rolls on either side. Or maybe the total roll for both side? Though if I go with a total it means the side with the most creatures always has the advantage which could end up hurting the fun. And it would especially be an issue for any horde encounters

[@amyloriley]

I stole my current initiative system for 13th Age from Shadow of the Weird Wizard, mixed in a little Pathfinder 2e, and made it my own. Players choose round by round, do they go before or after the enemies. - If they go before, they take their turn normally. - If they go after, they take their turn normally, and as a free action they can either Recall Knowledge or Swashbuckle. At the top of each round, they can decide again. -- Recall Knowledge: Roll an Intelligence skill check with bonuses relevant to the monster type. On a success, ask me a question about the monster, like its weaknesses, its hit points, its special attack, or whatever else. I will answer honestly. -- Swashbuckle: Tripping, grappling and shoving aren't actions in the 13th Age game by default, but now they are. Pull a rug from underneath an enemy or swing the chandeliers before your attack. Make a skill check for a bonus relevant to the thing, like a +2 attack bonus, -2 enemy AC penalty, or a add a Condition like Blinded. You can do a Recall Knowledge or Swashbuckle before the enemy's turn too if you wish. Though it would most likely cost you a Standard action or maybe at least a Quick action, GM's call. If you wait to go until after the enemies, you're guaranteed that they are a free action that you can do in addition to your regular turn.

[@AndrusPr8]

If you can organize people to tell you their initiative rolls, you can organize people to tell you their spells and attacks actions

[@MrJerks93]

Player turn based combat is a product of 3rd edition. The problem I have with how people understand initiative in most systems is that the action and resolution in sequence. I prefer systems that separate out action from resolution. That way opponents can exchange actions and enforce effects at the end of the phase. Check of the rules for 2nd edition ADnD or the original Alternity system. For this to work, both systems used phases within the round for characters with multiple actions within a round. The Merls initiative was an adaptation of ADnD 2nd edition rules, but in general I highly prefer systems of declare then roll it as it forces more tactics into the game. Players have to coordinate actions and can friendly fire and waste actions if they do it improperly. It also makes focus fire a lot less effective as not engaging targets has consequences and overflow of damage to a NPC can't be rolled over to someone else.

[@SergioLeRoux]

My favorite is the Elective Initiative order. The person who initiated a conflict goes first, then decides who goes next (it can be a friend or a foe), then that person goes and does the same, until everyone has acted once. The last person to go decides who starts the next round (it can be themselves).

[@MCRP-Games]

These days I mostly GM a pretty narrative game (loosely based on Blades in the Dark) that doesn't use initiative at all. It wouldn't work in more traditional games that are based on war games, but it does work perfectly without a hitch if the game is designed for it. My trick is to prompt players so that all characters have taken an action at the end of the round. Tell them how an enemy is attacking and they can react to that, that way they don't have to be afraid to speak up. In my experience, players have zero problems with it. The only ones who say they do are those who never actually tried it.

[@MagiofAsura]

This. Initiative is a built-in tool to make sure players engage into the combat. Without it, the onus is on the GM to make sure no one person dominates the action.

[@GrandOldDwarf]

Rolling initiative every round used to be the default in 2e D&D

[@GrandOldDwarf]

I like the random nature of it, but there is definitely a burden to run it that way.

[@GrandOldDwarf]

I have also combined this with Deadlands/Savage Worlds card based system. I currently run the cards, but only one pull per combat.

[@matthewparker9276]

Pbta and hackmaster both have great initiative systems, which would be terrible if they were used for 5e. For reasons I don't understand, this is a bit of a hot take, but I think dnd 5e's initiative system is good. It resonates well with the rest of game, is quick to resolve, and has a moderate impact in play. One thing I will say is, if you have a random initiative order, don't give the players the ability to manipulate that order unless there is a cost to doing so, otherwise there is no consequence to the outcome of the random order, and determining that random order is just wasted time.

[@vodkatlongtail9164]

So, here's my initiative system for 5e. The players roll as normal to determine their order, The monsters are broken up into groups and go between each player. The only monster that rolls initiative is the one with the highest initiative score, and that is solely to determine if it goes before the players or not. Monsters with Legendary resistances and legendary actions always go first. The BBEG always goes first.

[@ShadowEclipex]

That is a fun variation on more traditional initiative system. I might have to try it out myself.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

no initiative system is NOT more realistic, it's exactly the opposite. you just haven't actually thought it through. initiative simulates every participant acting as soon as possible, with the order representing the difference in their speed. having no initiative like daggerheart is what makes characters in-universe wait around nonsensically. rules as intended daggerheart lets one player take all the actions. that means that, canonically in your session, the fighter can do 2 attacks, a spell and a piruette. and if he does that makes the rest of the party stand there the whole round. why and how the fighter did that while everyone else was time stopped in the canon of your session is for you to decide. removing one mechanic too many often causes "narrative based" games to make no narrative sense at all. a common issue since a lot of them are just regular games but half baked for the GM to finish. my current solution is an initiative tracker in order of agility stat, with no rolls since this lets me set up initiative before combat starts and keep up the pace. all actions have a stamina cost, and stamina is completely restored at the start of your own turn. basically pathfinder actions but as a pool you can expand and interact with. and all actions can be used as reactions at any point, but to use them outside of your own turn you double their stamina cost. it is one of the most interesting aspects of gaming to ponder over to be sure. the digimon TCG's memory system is one of the best if you want to look it up.

[@ShadowEclipex]

It could be argued that no turn initiative is pretty much actively forcing the players to determine their character's reaction speed with their decision making speed. I dunno much about Daggerheart, but the way they described it here doesn't sound nonsensical in universe. I would assume it has something similar to like 5E's "Round is 6 seconds" sort of situation. So I don't see how it would be nonsensical since all of the players are acting within the same amount of time, they are just free to interact with each other's actions more than a turn-based initiative. (Also based on this video, sounds like Daggerheart's system sounds like it has similar elements as the Digimon TCG's memory cost. Where the more points the player spends the more points the GM has to spend for the monsters) The Agility system you suggested here doesn't sound too different from the Action Point system, you just have a more predictable and ridged turn order that rarely changes.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

@@ShadowEclipex here's an example, a round in daggerheart can go like this: -monster A attacks 2 times -monsters B and C do nothing -the wizard cast 3 spells -the rogue attacks 1 time -the warrior and ranger do nothing if you apply "a round is 6 seconds" here that means the wizard cast 3 spells in 6 seconds, while the rogue took all 6 seconds to attack once, and the warrior and ranger stood there doing nothing for 6 seconds. meanwhile monster A attacked twice while monsters B and C did nothing for 6 seconds. that's why basically everyone agrees daggerheart puts a heavy load on the GM, the action token system breaks very easily if you don't micromanage it.