What's Wrong with Pathfinder 2e Alchemists? Looking at the Alchemist with Sample Builds (pre PC2)

[@pirosopus9497]

Ello. Just some comment regarding the video presentation. Your audio quality is great. But the text is annoyingly cut off by your camera. Would be nice if you offset the text to the other side, or use a green screen

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

God probably conceptually and at first glance a fave class, but dang I wish it delivered more. Like some things I would wish for - • “Coatings” available for the Poisoner for elemental effects because poisons require hitting but also soooo many enemies will be immune or resistant to your toxins. They simply pop, kinda like a magus but with bomb like effects • Just a bump to splash and persistent damage. Yes they’re good at popping weaknesses, but if you aren’t doing that, oof. Either add Int to that damage baked in, or add an improvised “Thrown” for Strength and a die if it collides with a target Or a focus point based or like feature could be nice too. Such a rad class that I’m crossing fingers for remaster

[@amiablereaper]

Yeah I've heard Alch is getting the most significant changes in pc2 out of any class. I just hope they're good ones...

[@xiezhai4162]

I'm really looking forward to the Alchemist Remaster and hoping that the mutagenist and toxicologist get some more love from the developers. Mutagenist is my personal favorite, but I like trade-off plays and love the adaptability of the different mutagens. There are a lot of things they could do to bring it more in-line power wise as the others, so I have hope. I had a toxicologist in a game I run and it was effective when they got to do their thing, but I made sure the player was aware that plenty of things are immune to poison. They didn't just focus just on damage, they had some control poisons too that came in handy. My creatures couldn't handle the Clown Monarch poison, which makes them fall prone and have to succeed at a flat check to get up or lose the action. Those were some wobbly wolves 😂 It was a ranged build so could poison ammunition ahead of time and there was another ranged character in the party as well, so they could share.

[@nathanielhurley3960]

Ran the new toxicologist in a one shot and it felt pretty good. Now poisons you make deal acid damage if the target is immune to poison. Also you can apply poisons faster making it possible to generate, apply, and strike in one turn. Overall pretty cool when you can get persistant debuf poisons to hit.

[@saeedrazavi4428]

I really hope the Alchemist as a whole but especially the Toxicologist gets the help it needs in PC2

[@Senaul]

I never thought about playing a Ninja Toxicologist but now I am feeling inclined to do so 😂

[@lincr.1988]

The one thing you're not taking in consideration about Mutagens is that almost all of them suck at lv1, the only one that's actually very good is Drakeheart Mutagen; but hey, that's not a class problem, it's an item design problem. Most Mutagens get crazy good at their 3rd tier - which is at lv11; For instance the Choker-Arm Mutagen amplify your reach by 10ft at that level (not TO 10ft, but BY 10ft). The benefits of Mutagens only improve as you level up, but the drawbacks always stay the same. Again, an item design problem, not an Alchemist problem. At lv13 if you drink Fury Cocktail + Choker-Arm Mutagen while wielding a Weapon with Reach, sure you're gonna have some nasty drawbacks but you're gonna have a 25ft Reach to hit (30ft at lv17), and that my friend - is AWESOME! That being said the class does suffer from some shitty feats (like Suble Delivery, which is a meme feat) and also the subclasses Mutagenist and Chirurgeon barely have feats of their own subclasses, which also sucks. I've played a Toxicologist from level 1 to 20 and my major problem is that most poisons require Fortitude saves (which are usually the highest) and also lots of the most common enemies are immune to poison.

[@alexjgilpin]

(2 weeks later) I've seen the Alchemist in Player Core 2. It's generally better... except for Toxicologist which has gotten nerfed. By practically giving a Bomber, Mutagenist, and Chirurgeon 6 items that last 10 minutes for every half hour outside of combat they can run into each encounter with plenty of resources to spend. This core mechanic *heavily nerfs the Toxicologist* however as their whole concept was based on pre-buffing the party's weapons. Since the temporary items only last 10 minutes the Toxicologist is in a bad situation where they either need to guess up to 10 minutes before any fight is about to occur and quickly get the poisons placed, or they risk starting combat with no weapons poisoned as they wait for their resources to recharge. Their subclass features and feats only aid poisons they apply to themselves, and often only in combat (which even with the subclass buff is horrendous action economy) while also doing little to alleviate the atrocious hit-rate of poisons themselves (by level 5, when fighting an equal level monster they will succeed on their Fortitude 65-70% of the time, and it stays that way to the endgame). Sure, they can now target the 30% of the bestiary that was immune to poisons, but even those monsters will resist the vast majority of the time. The only alleviation was to use a *lot* of poisons, and just accept most will do nothing. Now the Toxicologist can't even do that, with the limitation of 6 renewable items. A great state for Alchemist, a dirge of doom for the Toxicologist.

[@danielv4793]

A corrosive venom feat for toxicologist could be nice From posion damage to acid

[@MrTallFrog]

For the toxicologist, I'd definitely suggest taking skunk bombs since I believe they get their DC boosted like all poisons.

[@CristianzenV]

I really like this class, hope they improve it on player core 2

[@OpenWorldAddict0]

I like the flavor, but not as a class itself but as a part of something else. A Witcher can be a ranger or an investigator that uses alchemy for potions, mutagens, poisons, and oils to take advantage of their target's weakness (or to create a weakness that wasn't there.). I wish it was just an archetype that you could add to other classes. I see Inventors who are also crafters getting into Alchemy. I just don't like that all the bests types of alchemy that are useful for different types of characters are bound to being able craftable by the alchemist.

[@ingenparks]

Multiclass dedications exist. Pretty easy to to splash some alchemy into a ranger, especially with free archtype.

[@saeedrazavi4428]

Additional comment for the algorithm: I cannot wait for PC2 omfg

[@OpenWorldAddict0]

builds for Alchemist is much better for level 2+ so you can grab your free archetype and allow you to pick up so more combat abilities.

[@geoffreygeever]

I think the part people seem to miss about mutagens is, as you level, they get stronger, but the negatives stay mostly the same from level 1 on. They do not get worse as the mutagens get better. Unless I am missing something crucial about mutagens?

[@RebelThenKing]

I did play as an alchemist up to Level 7, and though I was a bomber I did learn several mutagen formulas in hopes of using them to buff the party. My martials were almost never interested in using them due to the extra actions to take out and consume a mutagen and the relatively low payoff compared to the drawbacks.

[@justmonica9253]

Another note is that for any 'item bonus' mutagen, the increase in power is usually illusory. Since your item bonus for whatever they boost will catch up with your mutagens for any of the abilities and skills you focus on, the mutagens usually only ever come out as a +0 or +1. For skills you have no item bonus for of course they do get stronger, but for AC, attack bonus, saves, etc. you would expect to only ever get a +1 at best.