Alchemists in Player Core 2 - Analysis of the Alchemist Class Changes in PF2e's Latest Rulebook

[@RebelThenKing]

Thanks to Paizo for providing me with an early copy of the Player Core 2 Rulebook! This video is not sponsored content and all opinions expressed are my own.

[@Technomonkey887]

I think they should have called the quick versatile vial an unstable vial. Different from versatile vials and gets the point that you need to ditch it quick

[@RebelThenKing]

I like that proposed name A LOT.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@Technomonkey887 The Quick Vials, are clearly temporary versions, of the versatile vials. And have some of the same function of the versatile vials. I suspect, that they want enough synergy, to ensure the Quick Vials work well with your combo features chosen investments, Rather than have weird rules exceptions conflicts, where it seems they could or should work, but the wording doesn't support a Combo. This way, so long as your table always uses Quick, or Unstable, or Temporary, Distinctions to remember the limits of the temporary version. Most tables should be fine.. 8m more happy that the mechanics will work together.

[@valvadis2360]

You raised some important points that i didn't see talked about in other videos. I'm glad i watched this.

[@sbryder]

The wording for Quick Alchemy makes sense to me, and I imagine the devs thought it might have been awkward to have the two mechanics that use the same resource under two actions when they could have one action acting as an umbrella for the two use cases. Especially since Quick Vial is clearly meant to be your simple "class feature activation" action to rely on when you're conserving/out of vials/items.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@sbryder Indeed. Its the Cantrip Alchemy vs the SPELL Slot Alchemy. A bit generic, perhaps not quite as powerful, but Scales, and can trigger most of your other Alchemy investment features. Ie. BOMBER,

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Du sprichst Deutsch? Ich auch! Hablamos las mismas idiomas! Yeah I recorded my whole alchemist video not realizing that Quick Vial didn't deplete your versatile vials, and had to do a reshoot. It definitely would have benefited from your suggestions! Btw, I DO think the short-lived versatile vial AND the... other one BOTH have the same functionality for the alchemist because they're given the same name. So if you're a chirurgeon and you're knocked out, an ally can take one of your versatile vials and heal you with it.

[@RebelThenKing]

Wow, sehr zufällig! Ooof, reshoots son los peores! Tocamos los mismos instrumentos también? It seems like quite a lot of people are in agreement that the wording wasn't exactly ideal. Thanks for stopping by and chiming in!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@RebelThenKing Ich spiele Klavier nur, nicht viel mehr

[@jonathanbennison9220]

12:26 Here's my question. Can you use Quick Alchemy Create Consumable. To craft a consumable, bomb, from your formula book? Ie the bottled lightning you already posted? In which case, why would it really need the 'bomb' section of the Quick Vial, kind of at all?

[@scottread2979]

thank you for addressing the confusing way that it is worded.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

18:18 That's a good use, for 'Quick Vials'

[@PathfinderPals]

Love the video! Going to send this over to my party Alchemist-- he's been trying to figure out the new rules & I really think this will help; thanks for making this! 💜👨‍🔬

[@RebelThenKing]

That's awesome to hear! I really do hope it helps. It's such a cool class. I really do love it, but I also really wish it had been described more clearly in the rulebook.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

13:38 That said. Good solves, I expect most reasonable tables will follow this example. I will do something similar, with our game text in Foundry, for alchemist, when we move to PC2.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

21:38 Toxicology Field Vials works well with Field Benefit.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

20:25 Field Vials, would be a good use for one of your Quick Vials. Spend one action, to make a Temporary versatile Quick Vial, Then use that one, for Field Vials. To temp ditch the drawback of the mutagen. Neat. (spotty, timing will be rough, and it's a bit action heavy, if it costs 1 or 2 actions every turn to lose the penalty of your mutagen, But. Its still neat and might be Clutch in the right circumstance.

[@evrypixelcounts]

I really want to play a ranged toxicologist now. It seems so much more fun that it used to be!

[@jonathanbennison9220]

18:42 This entire Bomber page, clearly applies to the Versatile Vials, and the temporary 'Quick Vials' Which can be used as 'generic alchemist bombs' Which presumably, deal a nukber of dice of Acid damage, and presumably some acid splash damage. By default... And all of these rules allow the Bomber, to do more with their Versatile Vial Bombs, and Quick Vial bombs, and other bombs, than might a generic alchemist, or other specialty.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

23:53 Also. All. Alchemist specialties, have semi infinity. Semi infinity Poisons. Semi Infinity Heals. Semi Infinity Mutagens. Semi infinity Bombs. Semi Awesome. Hope all classes get this type of balance pass. Bring everything on par with Thaumaturge, Rogue, Fighter, and Kineticist.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

Alchemist pt 2. Cool. Thanks Rebel Then King

[@tomasnovellino5980]

My top 3 to try are (in no particular order): Alchemist Magus Ranger Depending on the party, I might go out of my comfort zone for a champion (for the reaction) or commander (to enable others to play during my turn)

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@tomasnovellino5980 are they giving magus a pass in PC2?

[@tomasnovellino5980]

@@jonathanbennison9220 every class is getting a remaster

[@charlespickering2726]

When you throw them they are not considered an elixir I believe. There are a number of traits that trigger on the elixir tag so there is a reason to hand somebody something for them to drink things but it is nice in a pinch if you just need to heal them you can just whip the vial at them.

[@RebelThenKing]

That's correct. The rules state "...plus the elixir trait if a creature drinks it". So a Chirurgeon's healing versatile vial is only an elixir if consumed.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

20:12 Field Benefit Mutagen Level Alchemist. With modifier Int 0. I realize, few if any will actually have a zero modifier, barring penalties. But. What would it do. Zero modifier plus half of 1 = round down to zero? Or round up to 1?

[@jonathanbennison9220]

3:42 More items at 1st level. Less items at higher level, with larger pool of reagents. Watching more

[@ProjectDT88]

Can we discuss Bomber’s Advanced Field Vials. Does specific metal resistances matter when it comes to bombs? How does that work?

[@theonceandfuturething3999]

Saw an example combat with new Alchemist, Investigator and Monk along with a Druid for support. Have to say I think the new Alchemist is still a bargain basement character whose versatility does not make up for the comparatively sub-standard effects the class produces. Guess I'll see if the Potent Poisoner feat is still around. At least the class can now produce a concoction that is at or close to the character's level without having to get new formulae every few levels (provided it has a lower-level formula already). Also, can't say I like the Coagulant trait. Alchemical healing is already inferior in effect to what a caster can produce. Coagulant limits how often the healing elixirs can be used on the same targets. To me, new Alchemist is more of a side-grade than an upgrade. Call me a glass half empty kind of player, I guess.

[@RebelThenKing]

Was that over on @lexchxn's channel?

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@theonceandfuturething3999 OH, coagulent brings it down to be inline with other battle healings. Focus pool limited. 10 minute timeout fruits. Battle medicine timeouts, Etc etc. Gotcha. Well. That's definitely a leash for the Chirrugeon. However. The Quick Vials still make it possible for nearly infinity daily healing compared to before. So thats an improvement. Chirrugeon and Alchemical healing were otherwise far behind Focus Healing.

[@theonceandfuturething3999]

@@RebelThenKing Indeed!

[@theonceandfuturething3999]

@@jonathanbennison9220 Thanks for the insight.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

8:11 You said abive. That Versatile Vials (2+Int mod), can be used as bombs, themselves, or, converted various ways. Say you spend all 6. You have zero Versatile Vials. You can use Quick Alchemy, to create a Qucik Vial, that lasts that turn, and can be used... A. Throw as a generic bomb, presumably, the way the Versatile Vials are used as generic bombs... B. For the Research field optional Does that sound. Clear? Correct? It would mean that the Qucik Vial, is a limited use Versatile Vial. Less stable and less versatile, in its 'Quick format', but functional. It would mean that you can spend all of your versatile vials in combat. Then finish encounter initiative. Exploration to spend 10 minutes to replace 2 Versatile Vials. (which have full function) Or, when you have none left, spend one single action, to create a Quick Vial, with some of the Versatile function. Including, generic, Alchemist, Versatile Bomb. Could you show us the exact text for the Versatile Vial, used as a generic Bomb? If true, this makes sense to me.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

19:19 Very neat. I don't think the Chirugeon, premaster, was very well done. This is quite tempting. This might compete with Battle Medicine for Game Impact , Might prove superior, over a session or campaign, to Healing Hands focus. And might help reduce 'the absence of a cleric' Having semi infinite, combat healing. In addition to semi infinite exploration replenished potions. This is a lot of Game Impact. This is not a Chirugeon healing less than the Cleric. This could be really good.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@RebelThenKing No mention or comment from you about one of your traditional complaints about the alchemist. Slightly MAD ability scores, and slightly reduced Bomb strike accuracy. No changes made to the way Bombs are used? Aside from the Bomber,

[@neurolancer81]

You get master proficiency in throwing bombs and simple weapons at 15. That's what most martials get right? They are not truly any more MAD than monks. They need DEX for throwing and INT for scaling DCs. Unless you want to get into melee, you don't need Strength. Quick Alchemy changes how often you can use bombs and if you are bomber you can choose what damage those vials do. The changes address many of the concerns IMO.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@neurolancer81 I think many people would love to see a little bit of the treatment the Gunslinger got for their specialty weapons. Ie. Guns or Xbows... For Fighter esque accuracy. For the Alchemist with their Bombs.

[@THEdeadlynightshade1646]

Alright will edit as I keep watching currently at 7:22 This second form of quick alchemy is to make it so alchemist now have a 2 action at will way to deal damage like a cantrip a1 quick alchemy a vial a2 throw vial (side note wth quick bomber you can instead go A1 QA throw A2 QA throw A3 QA throw) lol😅 Next edit 16:11 ya they tried shorting the wording to just make items and people argued well it doesn't say at no cost so it means you make it faster but got to pay so ya they have been proven they need to do this Final thoughts is pretty good overall I think you fixated on the first part about breaking up the quick alchemy cause dear god do you not want to see "cast a spell" that covers all spellcasting and takes multiple books to cover everything and even has 4 Separate categories for them Easy fix it's a quick vial can be can be used instead of versatile vial for only your field vials or the acid flask

[@camp5033]

My main issue with the rework is one of action economy. As written, it seems like a toxicologist wanting to poison his weapon with quick alchemy needs an action to create the poison, another to apply, and the last one to strike. Same issue with a mutagenist wanting to suppress his mutagen's downsides: one action for quick vials, on to consume the elixir. I don't like feeling that constrained action wise, especially on a heavy utility class with tons of skill proficiencies. The bomber is the only field with an action squish feat, an easy fix would be to give similar options to each field.

[@noahbierlein1349]

As A toxicologist who uses a blow gun (which is a reloading Weapon) it is even worse because i cannot use my quick alchemy to prepoison my darts.I would have to use al my 8 advaced alchemy item to prepoison them. If I want to use Quickalchemy in battle i would have to spend 4 Actions to fire one poisonded dart ( reload, quick alchemy, Apply, Shot) before i could spend 3 infused reagents at lvl.1 to create 9 poisons (signature Formula) and prepoison all my darts. And Even then with the Poison nerf poison it is not even that powerful. So in summery my action cost has been doubled for slightly worse results. Secondly Of cours i could use my Versitile Viles on my ammo and as a backup (quick Vile) i find it a good (still uses 4 actions ). However i would not use it as my main form of Attack because it does not fulfill the fantasy of a poisoner who uses specific poisons.

[@RebelThenKing]

I definitely agree, and again definitely for the toxicologist and mutagenist. I think that players will take their full turn to do what they want, even if they have a penalty from a mutagen, rather than spending actions to consume a vial and repress those effects.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@RebelThenKing I agree. I like the idea. But when you look at something like Bomber. If they have a Quick Draw esque feat, to turn the 2 action sequence of Draw or Create Consumable + Use or Throw Consumable.... Into a single action to Use it or Strike with it, in the same action spent to draw it or create it. Like Quick Draw for drawing a weapon, and striking with that same action. Gunslingers get some action squish for their reloading. I'd probably prefer of the Quick Alchemy was a once per turn free action. Like some of the Kineticists stuff. Like, Weapon Infusion.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@noahbierlein1349 You can use Quick Alchemy, to create temporary consumables from the formula book, rather than generic quick Vials. But I agree, on the action cost for poison. It's not efficient. And it's still probably, behind something like the Magus Spellstrike Let alone something like the Flurry Ranger with an Animal. Companion. 5 strikes reliably, with MAP as low as (0/- 2/-4 ) + (0/-2) At early low levels, Before Nimble Savage. Before Haste or Wuickens become common.

[@hammerspace8866]

Is advanced alchemy affected by research field in any way?

[@CanalDoAllffo]

Untraind in Portuguese? 😢

[@RebelThenKing]

Ha, despite the coffee bags from Brazil on my wall, I only know as much Portuguese as I can piece together from what I know of Spanish.

[@infostorm618]

My complaint: "Create Consumable: You expend one of your versatile files to create a single alchemical consumable item of your level or lower that is in your formula book." WHY would I ever make the inferior "versatile vial bomb when any decent alchemist will do everything to have all of the normal bombs (Alchemist Fire, Bottled Lightning, etc) in their known formulas. That basic versatile vial bomb to me is some that I would never use, even as a bomber archetype?

[@camp5033]

The vial bomb doesn't cost resources, that's why. Only the ''create consumable'' part of quick alchemy requires one of your versatile vials, which you only get 6 per fight at level 1.

[@neurolancer81]

In one turn you can use Quick Vials to create an inferior vial and another to throw it or turn it into a consumable, even when you are fully out of all your vials. That is the main reason you would use those.

[@infostorm618]

@@camp5033 I've been in a lot of fights, and the number of fights that last > 5 rounds can be counted on with just my hands. With everyone healing after a fight (takes 10 minutes to use medicine, and normally more than one used), rarely will an alchemist be without full versatile vials. OK, maybe they are to be used on those rare occasions, but same can be said of any carried weapons no real adventurer is without. Even a wizard carries a big stick to bonk someone over the head with.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@infostorm618 You also have se class features which specifically modify one of your versatile Vials when used as a generic bomb. Not when used as an ingredient to make a formula consumable. , So I can see a use case... Even if it's less common, Where one might prefer to trigger their class feature, over using a formula consumable.

[@camp5033]

@@infostorm618 I think you underestimate how fast versatile vials would disappear in combat and how useful an infinite source of bomb would be. You can use more than one per round and even more than one per action with combine elixir or double brew at level 9. And also, when facing an enemy with any weakness you can target with vials, I would always make a second attack with them rather than a formula. You don't care if you miss and you still get that juicy splash damage.

[@real_mereghost]

Completely unrelated thing: I'd love to know the story behind the coffee sacks behind you, specially the Café do Brasil one. XD

[@RebelThenKing]

They're just coffee bags I bought on ebay for about $15, then filled with rockwool insulation. They're great for sound absorption and I think they look cool too. The room I film in was first built out as a home recording studio.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

14:43 Action economy. Here is what I do like about this. It sounds, very much, like the action economy, for 'quick alchemy' as written, is Quite, exceptional. As is. If you just have a pocket full of alchemical bomb sonsukables... Ie. Bottled lightning and alchemist fire, and such, You spend 1 action, to draw one bomb. Then, you probably spend one action to strike with it. So, Quick Alchemy let's you, make one bomb for one action. (that you know the formula for yada yada) Then Strike with it for one action. This is the same economy as a a generic player drawing a throwing weapon like a javelin to throw it. Or, reloading a 1action crossbow or Firearm, before striking with it. And of course, feats and class features and such, can alter the action economy sequence. Ie. Gunslinger, Alchemist, etc. So. Not making Quick Alchemy, more expensive Action tax, than just having a bag of bombs. Exceprional. 2 actions also equals the Action Tax for most attack Cantrip spells. Again. Balanced. Exceptional. In fact, slightly MORE versatile, as you can spend one action at end of turn to draw a bomb, or potion, but one action at start of turn, or readied, to use it. You can also, Ready, to throw, a bomb, or use a potion, But cannot default ready most 2 action Cantrips. So. More Versatile. And still balanced.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

4:04 ok. Great. 100

[@fredlebad]

Quick alchemy creates a quick vial....just call it a quick vial?

[@RebelThenKing]

I've definitely thought that too. You'd have to update some of the text that says "versatile vial" to say "versatile vial or quick vial", but I think it would be a good edit.

[@NPC-xd6on]

dein deutsch ist gut :)

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@NPC-xd6on sehr gut.

[@keithpark2044]

The alchemist is nice and all and can make lots of cool shit but in the case of the toxicologist and the bomber they ain’t gonna hit shit with all their cool toys when they still use dex or str to strike. So once again everybody else is better with the alchemists stuff than the alchemist.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

19:38 1d6 scaling up to 4d6, Ok, so it doesn't scale as high as Cleric Spells. But. It still looks good, considering, semi infinity. Kineticist Healing has semi infinity. And this is great.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

25:48 Can the, generical, alchemist, all. Alchemist's, Use Quick Alchemy : Create Consumable... To create any consumable alchemical item, of your level, from your formula book? Ie. Elixir. Mutagen. Bomb. Poison? Is that not extremely versatile, for the cost of 1 action, which you already needed to spend minimum 1 action, (base before special feat) To retrieve that potion or bomb from your belt or pocket, anyway? So, the Alchemist, can conjure, any item from their formula book, for 1 action, infinitely? Isn't that, MOAR versatile than the Wizard or Sorceror Cantrips? Or the Kineticist? Even if the Sorceror knows all Cantrips, they can't cast all Cantrips. Right.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

15:38 Regarding Rules Clarity. And Game Design. This won't be the only OOPS by Paizo. Look at Weapon Damage Dice. And Bonuses to Damage per 'Weapon Damage Dice', vs, abilities that grant EXTRA 'weapon damage dice', ... But that don't qualify for those abilities that grant bonus damage, per weapon dice... Ie. Fatal and Deadly, grant extra weapon dice, as Bonus Weapon Dice. As does Vicious Swing (Power Attack) Neither source of 'extra die of weapon damage', counts for abilities which grant 'bonus damage equal to # per weapon damage dice) The specific rule that clarifies that is obscure, and almost buried. Easily Missed. The Solution, is so simple. BASE WEAPON Damage Dice vs BONUS Weapon Damage Dice. Just use those terms everywhere, and the problem resolves. Weapons Deal # BASE weapon damage Ie. 1d4 Dagger or 1d6 shortsword. STRIKING runes, increase the BASE weapon damage dice. They qualify for features which grant a nukber of Damage per Base weapon damage dice Deadly or Fatal weapons, grant BONUS weapon damage dice, on a critical hit. Vicious Swing, grants a BONUS weapon damage dice, on a successful hit. Etc. Those BONUS weapon damage dice, do not qualify for the Bonus damage per BASE WEAPON Damage Dice. Simple. Clear. Transparent. That's the solution I use at our table, but it often takes a fresh deep dive to find those clarifications for players, because the system just doesn't often use the Base vs BONUS distinction transparently.

[@irwingbrasil]

versitile vials, quick vials, field vials, advanced vials... too much similar names, a lot o vials I think alchemist still bad and now more confuse. I liked your naming suggestion. I like the flexibility from versatile vials and quick alchemy as a concept but the execution is wierd. quick vials only works with quick bomber feat and that means that only bomber can use the field vial with this action (the others would use 2 actions and that is worse for mutagenist and toxicologist) I understand that quick vial turning into pseudobomb by defaut is for battle but flavorwise don't make much sense for all research fields, I would preffer that quick vial allow each subclass do their own stuff for 1 action (minor bomb, temp hp, supress debuff, minor poison)

[@RebelThenKing]

Glad that there's agreement on the overuse of the word "vial" in its many forms.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@RebelThenKing rebel. I don't think it would be better to remove Vials from most of those examples. And if you look they do each have a clarifying keyword to distinguish them. Versatile. Quick. Field. Advanced. But all Vials. You have several Bombs. Several Mutagens. Several Poisons. Like spells or kineticist abilities, We benefit from those traits, group labels. And using Vials on all these Alchemical specialty features, Does one thing well. Clarifies a distinction between the class VIALS you make, And the stuff a fighter or barbarian buys at the store that happens to look a bit similar. Heck, the stuff you bought at the store, or crafted in DT, that looks similar. Grouping all your VIALS features into one folder, one subgroup, with shared thematic names, I think is better than weird names that have a subtle 'ALCHEMICAL VIALS' trait. Or a QUICK ALCHEMY trait.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@irwingbrasil it's an interesting idea. Quick Vials does work, as well as most 2 action cantrips, for all alchemists, to chuck a bomb, as well as they could, if they had one in pocket, Even when they don't have one in pocket, or don't have the 'right one' in pocket. I also think the first option, Quick Alchemy, Create Consumable, Allows any alchemist, who learns most formulas, To quickly have a formula bomb or Elixir or mutagen or poison, In hand. For roughly the same action cost it always had, to draw one from a pocket. From a limited supply. But semi infinitely now. Just, as mentioned by others. There is a feat that reduces the Action cost to throw a bomb. If other Alchemy specialties had an action cost reduction feat, on par, That could help them compete. Example above suggests it takes 4 actions for some poison builds. When they usually have 3 actions to spend.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

15:38 Regarding Rules Clarity. And Game Design. This won't be the only OOPS by Paizo. Look at Weapon Damage Dice. And Bonuses to Damage per 'Weapon Damage Dice', vs, abilities that grant EXTRA 'weapon damage dice', ... But that don't qualify for those abilities that grant bonus damage, per weapon dice... Ie. Fatal and Deadly, grant extra weapon dice, as Bonus Weapon Dice. As does Vicious Swing (Power Attack) Neither source of 'extra die of weapon damage', counts for abilities which grant 'bonus damage equal to # per weapon damage dice) The specific rule that clarifies that is obscure, and almost buried. Easily Missed. The Solution, is so simple. BASE WEAPON Damage Dice vs BONUS Weapon Damage Dice. Just use those terms everywhere, and the problem resolves. Weapons Deal # BASE weapon damage Ie. 1d4 Dagger or 1d6 shortsword. STRIKING runes, increase the BASE weapon damage dice. They qualify for features which grant a nukber of Damage per Base weapon damage dice Deadly or Fatal weapons, grant BONUS weapon damage dice, on a critical hit. Vicious Swing, grants a BONUS weapon damage dice, on a successful hit. Etc. Those BONUS weapon damage dice, do not qualify for the Bonus damage per BASE WEAPON Damage Dice. Simple. Clear. Transparent. That's the solution I use at our table, but it often takes a fresh deep dive to find those clarifications for players, because the system just doesn't often use the Base vs BONUS distinction transparently.

[@neurolancer81]

This is an excellent point. I hope something like this shows up in a future errata.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@neurolancer81 thanks.I've heard it described as the Ranged Weapon Attack ... Of 5e, for PF2. Just using the same terms with different meanings With nearly invisible differences and exceptions Instead of doing something simple, like allcaps or Bold or underline... On the term... Ie. ranged - WEAPON ATTACK Vs RANGED WEAPON - attack Vs - RANGED WPN ATT - it uses almost zero extra space. In fact, if the clarity removes others unclear sentences. It takes less space.